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[ERROR] No.32732363 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

>the wall is 800 feet tall because GRRM didn't realize just how high that was when writing A Game of Thrones

such masterful worldbuilding

>> No.32732427

>>32732363
I don't like GRRM's stuff, and nobody said he was a master worldbuilder, but come on. He obviously meant for it to be super duper big, even if he didn't know exactly how high.

>> No.32732459

>>32732363

I don't see how it would be possible for a literate American to not know that 800 feet is pretty fucking high.

>> No.32732465

Because all people have the innate understanding of exactly how long a certain measurement is.

Come on anon, that's not to say there isn't anything worth complaining or disliking about the books, but this is a weak thing to point at.

>> No.32732492

Wait, what is OP fagging about?

>> No.32732535

>>32732427
>>32732459
He's reportedly said he would have made the wall shorter if he realized how tall 800 feet actually was at the time.

Because 800 feet, really? Why's that better than 200 feet? Just how fucking tall does a wall to keep out ice demons need to be?

Oh and by the way why don't the Others just walk around the wall? If they make the air colder by their very presence shouldn't the sea freeze if you got a big army of them on the coast?

>> No.32732541

This always bothered me, if they fear the spooky forest so much, and they burn wood because it's cold, why isn't the spooky forest cut down yet?

>> No.32732557

800 feet isn't even that implausible. There are tons of cliffs of that height in the world (tallest known is around 5500 feet) and the Wall is basically a magically created cliff. It's not like it's made of bricks and mortar like the Great Wall of China.

>> No.32732573

>>32732363
It's stupidly tall, though, when you consider how little attention people in the books pay to it. If ancient mankind saw fit to build a wall five times taller than the tallest castle and five hundred miles long just south of complete terra incognita, you can bet we'd keep it fucking manned.

>> No.32732585

>>32732541
they used to do exactly that, but they don't have the manpower for it anymore.

>> No.32732588

>>32732535
>Because 800 feet, really? Why's that better than 200 feet? Just how fucking tall does a wall to keep out ice demons need to be?

As tall as it can be.

I actually really like that the Wall is so absurdly huge, because it makes the threat it was designed to keep out seem huger too. It's like we've built the tallest wall possible sire, that should do the j- NO MAKE IT TEN TIMES HIGHER.

>> No.32732621

>>32732363
Its a little realistic, but it was built to stop some world-ending shit. Do they ever talk about how it got built, because Ive got some fairly good theories on how you could put it together more easily than you'd think.

>> No.32732622

>>32732535
And why don't the Wildlings just sail around the wall?

I doubt the Watch's navy would be too much of a hindrance considering their overall shortage of manpower.

And if only two or three of the castles along the wall are actually manned, why didn't Mance send like 50 teams to scale the wall instead of just one? And they could have attacked Castle Black from atop the wall itself.

And how the fuck is the wall maintained anyway? I've been told that the wall magically repairs itself and the builders don't actually do anything apparently, but to my knowledge GRRM hasn't ever actually said that.

Oh and wrinkly caveman others > beautiful ice elf others, by the way.

>> No.32732624

I've only seen the first season, but are you guys really complaining that a wall is too tall in a show where dragons are real?

>> No.32732626

>>32732585
What, the peasants aren't breeding AND they like freezing?

>> No.32732638

>>32732588

>implying the wall was man-made

>> No.32732639

Because it's a fantastical universe?

Aren't hedge knights called hedge knights because the hedges are so big you can sleep in them?

>> No.32732643

>>32732624
>flight
>wall

>> No.32732650

>>32732622
>beautiful ice elf others,

Are they only in the books?

>> No.32732653

>>32732622

It has been hinted at that the wall is somewhat sentient.
I assume it is more than just a physical obstacle for the walkers

>> No.32732660

Well, 800 feet being excessive or not, do I have to remind you all that this is made primarily of ice? That shrinks every year when it sweats? How the fuck is this thing still standing? A mild breeze should have knocked it down by now.

>> No.32732663

>>32732624
>this argument again

suspension of disbelief, moron

dragons are ordinary in a fantasy setting

800 foot tall ice walls that never melt or need to be repaired even when huge chunks are constantly falling off are not

>> No.32732664

>>32732621
>Do they ever talk about how it got built,

"Combination of mundane and magical means" I believe.

>> No.32732665

People actually took the bait? God damn, I was so proud noone answered for a few minutes.

>> No.32732673

>>32732660
>How the fuck is this thing still standing?
Magic

>> No.32732679

>>32732660
Well, it was clearly built using magical means, so one can imagine it is sustained by magical means as well.

>> No.32732683

>>32732663

It's outright said in the books that the wall is magical.

It was designed to keep away the end of the world. It's huge because it needs to be.

>> No.32732686

>>32732664
I have a bit of headcannon about how you could just dig a shallow tidal inlet, wait for it to ice over, then just drag it up and over, and melt the edges to add it to the superstructure. Repeat about 800 times and you're ready to rumble.

>> No.32732701

>>32732573
you're underestimating the general myopia of people, particularly people in positions of power. do you spend thousands of troops to man the wall against a threat nobody has seen in living memory, or do you use those thousands of troops to give yourself an advantage against your political rivals, who are very real and right next door?

>>32732622
IIRC it's implied the seas in that area are very treacherous, and the wildlings probably don't have the technology for it - keeping in mind they need to transport hundreds of thousands of people in a hurry.

>And if only two or three of the castles along the wall are actually manned, why didn't Mance send like 50 teams to scale the wall instead of just one?

in the books, there are patrols along the wall and they were hoping to catch castle black unaware (particularly because they don't want reinforcements to arrive from the other castles before the attack). obviously the patrols can't cover much of the wall, but if you send up 50 teams there's a decent chance you'll be spotted.

>> No.32732729

>>32732664
>>32732683
>>32732686

Yeah, according to legend, the wall was originally created as the last act of the Forest Children (basically elves) before they left the world. Big magic shit.
Bran the Builder raised it, by cutting huge chunks of ice from up north and dragging them down to the wall and putting them in place.

This is also how they used to repair the wall during summers, back when they had the manpower for it.

>> No.32732741

Look, I know that the wall is magic.

But if it actually repairs itself by creating ice out of thin air then what the fuck are the builders for?

>> No.32732748

>>32732650
They were in one episode.

>> No.32732750

>>32732741
They have other buildings there, too.

>> No.32732761

>>32732679
>Meanwhile...
>Deep inside the icy interior of the wall

>"Bu-but Maester Aemon! If we upend any more decanters of endless water, the ice may creep right up to them and clog them up!"
>"That's what the fire is for my boy," Maester Aemon explained, the torch light glinting in his milky eyes. "Fire must defeat the ice."

>> No.32732765

>>32732573
>>32732701

And let's keep in mind that the previous invasion of the Others was _eight thousand years ago_.

I mean, think about that time frame. I'm sure we could dig up an infinite amount of legends about the end of the world and fuckhuge temples in our own world, and do we give a single shit about them except as tourist attractions? No. Because things from eight thousand years ago are fairytales by default.

>> No.32732771

>>32732741
they have three castles to maintain, plus a variety of installations on the wall itself

>> No.32732781

>>32732663
>need to be repaired even when huge chunks are constantly falling off are not

A third of the night's watch is dedicated to maintaining the wall itself. Granted, they never mentioned the Builders in the show, but still.

>> No.32732790

>>32732741
>repairs itself
It doesn't. It's slowly getting smaller.

>> No.32732792

>ice wall
>against ice creatures

waitaminute

>> No.32732803

>>32732741
They build shit. Like the tunnel through the wall, and the battlements that line it.

>> No.32732813

>>32732492
There's a really big wall in a world that has, like, magic n' dragons n shit or something idk

>> No.32732826

>>32732790
>It doesn't. It's slowly getting smaller.

then why the fuck is everyone sperging out and telling me that the wall maintains itself

>> No.32732832

>>32732729
So I was half right. Cool.

>> No.32732842

>>32732792

Makes good sense -- wherever they go, things freeze up, so if they march on the wall, it hardens up. They can't melt the thing because of their own influence. They also can't just cause it to freeze and crack and become brittle, like they could if it was stone.

A big group of the others could probably make a stone wall collapse.

>> No.32732847

>>32732792
They are Unseelie Faeries, not "Ice Creatures".

>> No.32732848

>>32732826
Because he literally said "headcanon"
And you took that as from the books

>> No.32732875

>>32732826
lrn2readingComprehension

>> No.32732914

>>32732848
No, every time I ask how the fuck the builders are supposed to maintain the wall a bunch of nerds jump at me shouting "THE WALL REPAIRS ITSELF!"

Then they fail to tell me where in the books GRRM ever said such a thing.

Anyway I'm still wondering why the Others don't just freeze the ocean and walk around the wall.

>> No.32732932

>>32732914
>Anyway I'm still wondering why the Others don't just freeze the ocean and walk around the wall.

First of all, ocean. Waves and shit.
Secondly water has a high thermal mass. The magic ice fuckers can only be so magic.

>> No.32733006

Like, if the wall doesn't actually repair itself, do the builders haul water up to the top and then dump it down the side?

And if the wall does repair itself then why does anyone in Westeros question the existence of magic? Why do the maesters even bother attempting to suppress that knowledge?

I mean everyone knows about the wall, it's fucking huge.

So if everyone's familiar with the big wall that repairs itself, why's magic such a ridiculous concept?

>> No.32733047

>>32732914

Those guys are dumb. The books say no such thing.

The books say that they cut big ice blocks out of frozen lakes in the north, drag them to the wall, and cut them and put them into place to raise and/or repair it.

>>32733006

Also, magic actually hasn't worked for several thousand years. If the wall relied on magic to not collapse, it would have crapped out long ago.

>> No.32733056

>>32733006
Because nobody has any frame of reference. Its like like a wooden ship that repairs itself, and has existed for thousands of years, its a jagged pile of ice that just so happens to have not moved. Its curious, and even ridiculous to our modern sensibilities, but so what if it never melts? Neither does the whole of the north? So what if it never falls? Neither do mountains. People only question magic because it doesnt work as well as it used to, and no matter how closely the modern Maesters follow ancient texts, they cant get any sort of magic to work.

>> No.32733114

>>32732626
Vow of celibacy, yo.

The watch is made up of former criminals, no wimmins.

>> No.32733233

>>32732622
I always thought the wrinkly cavemans were just very old zombies, not others.

>> No.32733303

>>32733006
?
People don't question the existence of magic- your average farm hand belives there are tiny men living inside molehills and if you catch one you'll get crowned a king.

Maesters don't believe magic never existed, they question the definiton between natural and magical.

Politicians believe in whatever suits their interests and soldiers believe in a full belly.

>> No.32733353

>>32733006
>And if the wall does repair itself then why does anyone in Westeros question the existence of magic?

they don't

many people question whether magic is still a relevant force in the world, or whether magic is reliable or useful. no one thinks it doesn't exist.

>>32733047
>Also, magic actually hasn't worked for several thousand years.

that's not true either. valyria existed just over 300 years ago and it relied heavily on magic. since the death of valyria up the events of the books, magic has been scarce but it never disappeared entirely.

>> No.32733399

>>32733006

Maesters are smart, right? So the first thing they'd think is "if we tell people it can fix itself, they'll think it can take care of itself completely and will stop sending guards because people are selfish, stupid and short-sighted.So let's just not say anything."

They could also just not be sure and not be particularly willing to test it.

>>32733047
>Also, magic actually hasn't worked for several thousand years

Magic has faded from the world, not vanished completely, and there is mention at points in the books of the wall having a sort of mystical power still hidden within it. It is still a high-fantasy marvel in a world that has mostly returned to low-fantasy.

>> No.32733409

>>32732781
Yeah they do. Most prominently when the head guy was all:
"Are you a builder John Snow?"
"No."
"Then any advice regarding changes in the wall's structure is to be entirely disregarded."

>> No.32733419

>>32732621
It wouldn't be an issue if he didn't have people with bows on the ground as a meaningful, if unlikely, threat to the people standing up top.

>> No.32733470

>>32733047
>for several thousand years.
>>32733353

It's heavily implied that magic is tied to Dragons (and I would also assume that its return may also correlate to the Others returning, but that's just my headcanon). The last dragon died over a hundred years ago until Dany's hatched.

The arc in Qarth does a better way of portraying this in the books than the show ever did with Pyat Pree being some crazy overlord of magic and death. People who were doing parlor tricks before were instead performing strange feats of magic.

>> No.32733517

>>32733419
Well that's one thing the show got right. The wildlings' arrows couldn't even reach halfway up.

>> No.32733565

>>32732765
We have the entire world mapped, outstrip the ancients a thousand times over in scientific knowledge, and our old ruins and temples are piddling things. I'm sure if we had, say, a 20 km diameter prehistoric orbital space station we'd pay attention to it.

>> No.32733574

>>32733470
>may also correlate to the Others returning, but that's just my headcanon

My personal headcannon is that Dragons and Others are two polar types of magic. The power of the dragons kept the others at bay for a couple thousand years (Fire beats ice), but once the dragons died out, the others started to return.

>> No.32733639

>>32733565
Yeah, except the majority of people in Westeros are uneducated and superstitious, while the people who should actually know better either don't care or are too busy backstabbing each other.

>> No.32733651

>>32732573
>If ancient mankind saw fit to build a wall five times taller than the tallest castle and five hundred miles long just south of complete terra incognita, you can bet we'd keep it fucking manned.
I'm actually, legitimately curious whether we would. I wanna think we'd go "lol, ancient people. Tear the fucker down, it's between us and the oil". But then again, while that seems like the shit we'd do based on past experience, we really don't have anything of comparable scope in the real world. Never have. Hard to say how we'd respond to such an unprecedented situation.

>> No.32733675

>>32733651
Im sure the Great Wall will eventually stand in the way of a Siberian pipeline, given China's recent energy contract with Russia.

>> No.32733714

>>32733470
>It's heavily implied that magic is tied to Dragons (and I would also assume that its return may also correlate to the Others returning, but that's just my headcanon).

your headcanon sounds more reasonable than the idea that the dragons brought magic back. the first magical event of the books is the others returning in the first prologue. the dragons don't appear until the end of the same book, and dany needs to perform a magic ritual before that happens in the first place. it seems more plausible that dragons (and maybe the others too) are a symptom of the return of magic rather than its cause.

>> No.32733717

>>32732621
Presumably you would build some kind of scaffolding, then create two thin "walls" of ice by just carving and moving blocks, then fill the hollow with snow and water. After a certain height this would be infeasible though so i guess they would have just had to literally bring blocks to the wall and then freeze them to it.

>> No.32733719

>>32733675
Pretty sure the only parts of the Great Wall China gives a shit sbout are the areas tourists frequent.

>> No.32733729

>>32732653
> the wall is somewhat sentient.
>Tyrion went up the wall to piss from it.

Oh boy.

>> No.32733739

>>32733651
>>32733565

I don't know. It wasn't until recently that we figured out that Stonehenge could have been been built entirely by one dude. Even through most of the 1900s, our answer to how ancient people got those rocks in that arrangement was something between "fuck if I know" and "maybe aliens?"

Imagine if the popular myth was that Stonehenge was a supernatural gate, and it needed to be manned to prevent things from coming out the other side. I'd be willing to bet that around the 1800s, people would have said "Ok. yeah, this is probably all just superstition."

>> No.32733743

>>32733006
>So if everyone's familiar with the big wall that repairs itself, why's magic such a ridiculous concept?

Not really magical though, it's made of pure ice and exists far enough north to not thaw.

If it behaves like any glacier it should actually expand over time.

>> No.32733753

>>32733729
>Tyrion then proceeded to have a string of unlucky incidents like being captured for a crime he didn't commit which then led to a massive war breaking out and him getting into shitty situations
Don't mess with the Wall.

>> No.32733756

>>32733719
China doesnt give a fuck about many things, but its history is pretty much its only real source of national pride. There are tons of tombs and other archeological sites they've not even cracked, all in the name of preservation. Sure you cant breathe the air in some cities, and if they dont come up with some comprehensive land-usage reform everything up to the ocean will be a mix of trash heaps and sand-dunes, but they do actually care bout their historic landmarks.

>> No.32733796

>>32732363
about half of all awesome things in fantasy are made using this 2-step guide:
1. make a mistake
2. instead of correcting, roll with it

the wall is pretty neat

>> No.32733884

>>32733419
its so stupid that this is coming up only now

>> No.32733892

>>32732363
>such masterful worldbuilding
Actually that's how real worldbuilding is supposed to look like.

You start with some elements, add some, replace, go back, change the basics a bit...

>> No.32733895

>>32732639

That's a big hedge!

>> No.32733908

>>32732765
Didn't Sam imply in one of the books that their dating might be way off? I read those books like four years ago so I don't remember specifics.

>> No.32733909

>>32732622

Wildlings do try to sail around the wall.

>> No.32733933

>>32733884
What, that you can shoot people standing on the wall? The high ground will always be an invaluable advantage

>> No.32733944

>>32732639
That sounds comfy as fuck.

>> No.32733951

Might as well get some use out of this thread, running a campaign that is starting off with the greyjoy rebellion.
I can't find all that much info about it, and going by wiki it seems to have lasted less than a year. So far I've had a minor independent band of iron man plan to reave along the western coast and stomp across the land of the PC's. So the questions are

What do I fill it out with? Have the players echo the larger conflict with a mini war of their own with a band of longship?

Is warging something that an ironman could do? I'm imagining a reaver leader who can warg into various animals to synchronize reaver attacks very expertly/watch for enemies and so on

And naturally, once they reach lannisport, who would be some fun canon characters to meet? I figure Robert, Ned Stark and the Lannisters are around. How much does everyone else contribute?
So far I figure Jorah and flame sword thoros should be around

>> No.32733964

>>32733933
no, that wildlings are described as being able to shoot up the wall.

>> No.32733990

>>32732639
bums already sleep in hedge caves in my city. they enter it through a little tunnel cut out of the side

>> No.32734022

>>32733964
thats impressive.

>> No.32734328

>>32732639
>Aren't hedge knights called hedge knights because the hedges are so big you can sleep in them?

Wait, hold on. Is this chucklefuck claiming that hedges big enough for a man to lay down under are somehow FANTASTICAL? Nigger, France was lousy with the things. The hedgerows were so dense that you could get tanks stuck in them. I personally saw hedges in Ireland large enough to sleep under crossways and never get your feet wet.

>> No.32734361

>>32734328

I'm not sure, he might be just implying that the answer to both those questions is "yes", using the hedge knight as a variant of "is the pope catholic?"

>> No.32734368

>>32734328
>The hedgerows were so dense that you could get tanks stuck in them.

Immersion broken. Get a sense of scale before you start on your novel.

>> No.32734473

>>32733944
Doesn't sound comfy to me, but that's because the hedges I see personally tend to be made of thorny plants or those fucking bushes with the pointed leaves and red poison berries. You try to push your way through and pain ensues. Stay on the fucking path already.

>> No.32734569

>>32733908

Yeah, anything before the Age of Valyria is pretty inaccurate went it comes to dating.

>> No.32734799

>>32732535
>If they make the air colder by their very presence shouldn't the sea freeze
Do you know how cold it actually has to get to freeze a gigantic body of water? Even more so when it's in motion.

>> No.32735072

>>32734799
...which brings us to second point, how come the sea doesn't melt the ice

>> No.32735152

>>32735072
Um, it totally does, in a fashion. Salinity lowers the freezing point of water, so it has to be colder to freeze in the first place and is easier to thaw. This is why salting your driveway melts snow and ice. An iceberg, however, is a fucking GIGANTIC ice cube made mostly out of salt water and bits of sediment, so it has quite a lot of resistance to being melted. Warming seas have raised the temperature at the poles through thermal conduction/convection/whatever to create roughly the same effect as what happens if you put ice in a cold drink and put the iced drink in a fridge that's juuust above freezing. The ice bleeds thermal energy into the drink and melts over a period of days. Multiply that by a thousand million times and you have melting caps.

>> No.32735251

>>32733639
>Yeah, except the majority of people in the modern world are increasingly uneducated and superstitious, while the people who should actually know better either don't care or are too busy making a profit while the people who do know better get discredited by the hugely rich or just keep their traps shut while a 100 people own 50% of all wealth on earth
At least I'm not in everyday mortal danger here.

>> No.32735263

>>32733951
>>Is warging something that an ironman could do?
No. They don't have the blood of the children unlike wildlings, men of the north or crannogmen.

>> No.32735313

>>32735263
Members of House Farwynd are said to be skinchangers.

>> No.32735353

>>32735152
>An iceberg, however, is a fucking GIGANTIC ice cube made mostly out of salt water and bits of sediment
Pretty sure icebergs are formed out of fresh water since they're glacier-spawn.

>> No.32735434

>>32735313
I take it back, ironborn are descendants of the first men so you can probably do it.

It doesn't work so well thematically, and you're taking away from its uniqueness as nature magic but you can do it.

>> No.32735457

>>32735353
Point. I also forgot the actual question being asked, which was why the sea didn't melt the Wall, which comes back to "Because the North is balls-ass cold."

>> No.32735566

I've no trouble believing an 800 foot tall wall made of ice. The big question is, how thick is it? Is it thin as paper, or is it shaped like a 2x4?

>> No.32735764

>>32735313
And Lady Mormont says Mormont women turn into bears and fuck in the woods, but what she really means is that Mormont women don't give a fuck about fucking around

>> No.32735946

>>32732622
There are wildlings who mount raids over the ocean. The Watch has men watching the ocean from the Wall, so they have to sail very far out to avoid being seen. Assuming they are seen then the Watch can warn nearby coastal areas. The wildlings have no great ship building capacity, they can't mount more than a raid of a dozen canoe like vessels, which aren't much safer than going over the Wall in the treacherous waters up there. It's mentioned that they do it, but it's not an effective method for getting an army past the Wall, any more than having the entire army climb it would be, they do it to raid Skagos and coastal villages.

>> No.32735982

>>32735946

And Skagos is full of cannibalistic vikings.

>> No.32735983

>>32732663
For every time there's shit falling off the Wall there's a cold night and often rain that will "rebuild" the Wall without any effort from the Builders.

>> No.32735997

>>32733574
>My personal headcannon is that Dragons and Others are two polar types of magic. The power of the dragons kept the others at bay for a couple thousand years (Fire beats ice), but once the dragons died out, the others started to return

Hey, are you me by any chance? I can't help but agree that 'fire' and 'ice' magic are opposites both due to the fact that the Children/Others/Old God stuff seemed to disappear into legend around the same time the dragons and sorcery of Valyria was on the rise and only reappeared after the fall of the latter. Plus the Others were coming back before Dany's dragons hatched so it doesn't seem like dragons would be the cause of the stuff going on in north Westeros right now. >>32733714 is likely correct that the dragons didn't bring magic back but are themselves the result of returning magic (which would explain why the hatched at all when previous Targaryens had failed to hatch their own eggs).

Of course, the question then becomes that if the two magics are separate and one wanes when the other rises why did fire magic/dragons suddenly get a boost again while ice magic/Others was on the rise?

>>32733908

Sam said that the maesters doubt everything from before the coming of the Andals because the First Men only recorded things on runes that have dubious translations. This would suggest reliable history begins around six thousand years prior to the series; however, in aDwD Lord Blackwood tells Jaime Lannister that there's a lot of discrepancy to the date of the Andals arrival itself and that it might have only been four or even two thousand years ago. They really don't know but it would seem likely that the whole idea of family lines ruling for millenia is probably way off. If one wants a real world example the ancient Sumerians believed the lines of their kings went back to something like 40000 BC which, by our modern understanding of history, is fucking insane.

>> No.32736017

>>32735982
You gotta be pretty badass to sail a cobbled together piece of crap across northern seas to an island full of cannibals with a plan to steal from them.

>> No.32736033

>>32735997
>Of course, the question then becomes that if the two magics are separate and one wanes when the other rises why did fire magic/dragons suddenly get a boost again while ice magic/Others was on the rise?

It seems like it would be two factors at play: The ebb and wane of magic itself, and the balance of magic between fire and ice.
The last few centuries were a period when the song of ice and fire went quiet for a while.

>> No.32736120

Regardless of how and when The Wall was created - and it probably does involve a fuckload of magic - nowadays it's essentially as much a natural feature as a manufactured one. It could be compared to a massive glacier which means that as long as the peoples of the known world don't start pumping a ton of carbon into the air its base structure is probably going to be safe for a good deal of time.

>>32733951
>>32735263
>>32735313
>>32735434

Ironborn were a fairly unique and isolated First Men culture that were eventually conquered and mixed with the Andals but still maintained that previous unique culture. So they have some First Men blood as well as Andal blood (most peoples in Westeros are probably significantly mixed by this point) with some families and regions maybe having more than others (like Farwynd) and possibly a higher chance (though still very though overall) chance of wargary.

Blackwood, Bracken, Royce, Dayne and Westerling are all mainland southern houses that have a significant First Men heritage as well if anyone was interested.

>> No.32736124

waiting for the series to end is like watching the biggest slowest train collision ever. there is no way he can asspull a decent ending from this. his best bet is to die and never finish

>> No.32736153

>>32736124
>asspull a decent ending from this

If you think he's going for "a decent ending" you haven't been paying attention to any of the series.

>> No.32736165

>>32736153
>fade to black

>> No.32736220

>>32736165
>Joffrey awakens from a terrible nightmare.
>Discomforted, he fucks a peasant whore and furiously masturbates over her plump butt.

GOOD END

>> No.32736373

>>32736220
"no arya, WE are the others!"

FIN.

>> No.32736532

>>32736153
Everybody remotely interesting dies a meaningless death, fade to black.

>> No.32736578

In my headcanon the wall was built so tall to keep out things we have not seen yet because they are still asleep. I was thinking things like Behemoths from Exalted.

>> No.32736600

I love it's height. It's striking. It seems from a time before time.

>> No.32736602

i just wanted everyone to know that grr considers himself a better writer than tolkien

>> No.32736653

>>32736602

[citation needed]

GRRM adores Tolkien.

>> No.32736691

>>32736653
youre possibly right. im mostly talking out of my ass. although i know he had some shit talk about tolkien bring gandalf back to life

>> No.32736697

>>32736602
I consider him that. Tolkien spent so much time imagining every minute aspect of old elvish pronunciation and street names in numenor that the plot itself was nothing spectacular (Two Towers had insanely awful pacing, I gave up on my first try after page 800 of Sam and Frodo fucking around in the mountains).

GRRM at least makes a compelling universe without having to use every cliche in the book.

>> No.32736698

>>32736602
Tolkien isn't that amazing, he just had good inspiration.

>> No.32736712

>>32732665
Failure troll failed.

>> No.32736736

>>32736697
>without having to use every cliche in the book.
>every other character is mustache twirling evil

>> No.32736739

>>32736697
But Tolkien invented those cliches.

>> No.32736751

>>32736691

I'm going on his recollection of first reading LotR back in the day, recounted in his collection Dreamsongs.

A friend handed it to him saying it was great. He started reading like "WTF is this shit? Hobbits? Man, Conan would cleave a bloody swath through these guys." because it was so different from fantasy that existed before.
But then it got a hold of him, and he slowed way down, because he realized he was only going to get to read this for the first time once.

>> No.32736768

i love how this is going to be flooded with people talking about how tolkien is totally over rated and they could write a better story than him in a week. /tg/ spent too much time in fantasy land and cant differentiate dreams from reality

>> No.32736779

>>32736736
Yeah, that's the thing. It's not a cliche if the heroes are generally as bad as the villains. Or are you telling me that a setting where the few Heroic and Noble characters died out very soon, and only bastards and scoundrels with varying degrees of assholery survive is a cliche on the level of

>party of diverse incredible noble heroes
>goes to kill giant evil bad guy king of evil empire

Because that's deluded to the point of retardation.

>> No.32736794

>>32732622
because as a general rule, you can't sail massive armies around without a considerable fleet. More over, the wildlings aren't sea farers, they would die.

>> No.32736801

>>32736779
>i dont like something therefore its wrong!
>i like something therefore its right!

also see >>32736739

>> No.32736854

>>32736801
>I have literally no idea what I'm talking about, and cannot respond to arguments

And I don't mean the whole "dwarves are like this" or "elves are like that," he did create that.

I'm talking about general storytelling devices - it's literally just "group of heroes quest around a macguffin before evil king takes it." That's centuries old, if not millennia. The only innovation is that they're trying to destroy it. Other than that, LotR really follows tropes to a T. GRRM, on the other hand, I think goes too far in trying to subvert them, to the point where nobody takes anything at face value ("cute little girl? she's dead. Trustworthy old mentor? Secretly a traitor" etc.)

>> No.32736907

>I was very satisfied with the end of the Lord of the Rings, let us say. Talking about predictability here—I had a sense, even as a kid, that the ring was going to go in the volcano. They weren't going to let Sauron take over the world. But he surprised me in that Frodo couldn't do it. Bringing in Gollum the way he did was an amazing part of the ending, and then came the scouring of the Shire. And when I was 13 years old, reading this, I didn't understand the scouring of the Shire. They won—why are there all these other pages? But I reread these books every few years, and every time my appreciation for what Tolkien did there grows. It was this kind of sad elegy on the price of victory. I think the scouring of the Shire is one of the essential parts of Tolkien's narrative now, and gives it depth and resonance, and I hope that I will be able to provide an ending that's similar to all of that.

- gurm

>> No.32736912

>>32736578
>In my headcanon the wall was built so tall to keep out things we have not seen yet

>> No.32736927

>>32736854
youre the one who seems to be mad that tolkien doesnt have cliches everywhere. tolkien has a more real pace with story elements evolving naturally over time instead of a TWEEEEST behind every corner

grr writes fucking shitty movie scripts and tosses them into a fantasy novel cover

>> No.32736961

>>32736912
Would piss my pants if a Titan showed up in the TV series, but judging by last episode I don't think they have the budget for it to be as terrifying.

>> No.32736964

>>32733739
>Stonehenge could have been been built entirely by one dude


niggawhat.jpg

>> No.32736966

Yeah, when I first read that the wall was 800 foot high I realised I was reading horseshit. 800 feet high, 50 metres or so wide, 300 miles long. How many billions of tons of ice is that? Why does it have to be 800 feet? 100 would be just as effective. Can ice even bear that much weight? How come the Wildling can shoot arrows 800 feet straight up at men on the top. Stupid, badly-thought-out crap.

>> No.32736989

>>32732535
>Oh and by the way why don't the Others just walk around the wall? If they make the air colder by their very presence shouldn't the sea freeze if you got a big army of them on the coast?

Magic, the others literally can not pass the wall without using a magical macguffin to knock it down, that's why Coldhands or what ever his name is had to send Sam to talk to Bran.

>> No.32736993

>>32736964
pretty sure some old retired construction worker build a replica of stonehenge using simple levers in his spare time

>> No.32737028

>>32736927
>>32736927
>mad that tolkien doesnt have cliches everywhere
>say in my two posts that i dislike lotr because its so cliched
>also apparently somehow mad even though I never used caps, swearing or insults and briefly explained my reasoning logically

>naturally over time
>frodo and sam stumble their way across tom bombadil, gollum, and the rest of middle earth and the plot resolves itself with the hobbits not even doing anything relevant to destroy the ring

And I did say that grrm overdoes the twists, to the point where the few times it's not a twist I'm surprised.

>> No.32737198

>>32737028
uh yeah. the point i was making was that you seem to over estimate how "cliched" (god i fucking hate that word) tolkien is and forget that he is the originator of most of those story elements

its like calling the sixth sense a shit movie because the ending was already done in the sixth sense

bombadil was the only wild card in lotr and he was intentionally put there because tolkien wanted an unknown in his story. he didnt have a game changing effect on the story anyway

>ring corrupts those who carries it
>well based off of recent events it seems like hobbits are uniquely resistant to the ring. lets try giving it to them
>oh well i guess they were 100% resistant

>hobbits not even doing anything relevant to destroy the ring
what the fucking shit are you talking about?

>> No.32737299

>>32737198

I'd like to think you're getting trolled, man, but there really are are nerds this obnoxious and wrongheaded.

>> No.32737545

>>32736966
Well, 800 feet x roughly 150 feet x (300 miles x 5280 feet per mile) = 190,080,000,000 cubic feet.

Interestingly enough, this is equivalent to 1.29 cubic miles + some change.

That's roughly equivalent to the amount of rock ejected during the Mount St. Helens eruption, for reference.

So, it's pretty damn huge on a human scale, but surprisingly small on a geological scale.

>> No.32737585

>>32732765
>Because things from eight thousand years ago are fairytales by default.

Even fairytales don't last EIGHT THOUSAND YEARS. In our world Jesus is two thousand years ago, Socrates 2500, the earliest writing 5000. From 8000 we have nothing.

In ASoIaF families still have the same LAST NAMES after that many years. My conclusion is that an ancient Westerosi maester accidentally moved a decimal point so a "year" is actually only 36 days -- which is why one season an span many "years".

>> No.32737613

>>32732363
>This post is just shit

such masterful shitposting

>> No.32737702

>>32737198
>were
oh i mean "weren't"

>> No.32737714

>>32737198
not that anon but the sixth sense was a shit movie because it makes no goddamn sense the second time you watch it

>> No.32737739

>>32737714
>not that anon but the sixth sense was a shit movie because it makes no goddamn sense the second time you watch it

yeah i already knew this was going to come up. i was just using it as an example is all

>> No.32737759

>>32737714

Elaborate plz?

>> No.32737792

>>32737585
Standard "Fantasy settings are utterly stagnant despite superficial change" cliche in action, in my book.

>> No.32737842

>>32737792
>cliche
can we just agree to stop using this word?

if its shit just call it shit. calling something cliche doesnt actually mean anything. calling stuff cliche is so cliche

>> No.32737883

>>32737792
>Standard "Fantasy settings are utterly stagnant despite superficial change" cliche in action, in my book

Totally fair. I just mean that 8000 year continuity of family names stretches credulity much farther than an 800 foot high ice wall.

Dragons strain credulity even further, of course.

In a sense Tolkien is less realistic still by author-inserting the preposterous notion of an infinite personal god.

>> No.32737888

>>32737759
if you watch it again it's all just ghost bruce willis standing around talking to people who can't hear him. Like when he "eats" dinner with his wife. The way the scenes are cut let you ignore the fact that things in that situation would tip him off to the fact that nobody can see or interact with him. But once you know the ending and watch it again there are all these places that only remotely work because we assume other people in the scene interact with him

>> No.32737892

>GRRM kills all his characters
>GRRM is always putting twists in everything
>GRRM is always subverting tropes
>Every character GRRM writes is a morally grey backstabbing asshole

I swear to god, this same shit gets thrown around in everytime GRRM is mentioned on the internet. All these points are brought up constantly by both fans praising him and critics bitching about his work and all of them are wrong. Or at the very least exaggerated obscenely.

It's like saying all Tolkien did was make up languages and have his characters sing songs. Those are certainly things he liked to do, yes, but they're hardly representative of the whole story.

>> No.32737917

>>32737585
it's been mentioned in the thread already, but it's mentioned in the books that maesters suspect the traditional historical chronology is flat-out wrong.

>> No.32737934

>>32737888
to be fair i think part of the point of the movie is that he wanted to believe he was still alive and was willfully tricked

>> No.32737936

>>32737883
*tips fedora*

>> No.32737973

>>32737892

That sort of thing goes way back. Aristophenes made fun of Euripides for having so many cripples in his plays. As far as we know he only ever had one cripple. The underlying point is they're pointing out a certain tone, so that this is what you remember, even if the specifics don't quite match.

>> No.32737983

>>32737883
>preposterous notion of an infinite personal god.

summer is upon us

>> No.32738034

>>32737888

Of course Bruce Willis doesn't get that he's dead! "I see dead people. Walking around. They think they're alive like everybody else."
He's apparently not fully aware, but in a kind of dream state, and is probably not even there all the time, just popping in from scene to scene, believing he's alive in each one.
Basically, you almost have to hit a ghost over the head to get him to realize that he's dead.

>> No.32738086

>>32737934
the whole movie falls apart if you examine it with this in mind. It's like that awful movie from last year now you see me, where the cop hunting the magicians is the magician king and the whole point of his scheme is to fuck with morgan freeman

it has less to do with whether it's plausible and more to do with intending the audience and the characters find out at the same moment so there's an "OH SHIT" moment, to the detriment of the rest of the film

as an example of when this kind of thing is done effectively, see: the prestige, because when you look back at that movie all of the cute "oh it's a movie he's a magician" shit is actually completely plausible because there's two of him. Even the scene where wolverine is reading batman's journal and batman writes "we were two young men at the start of our careers" or some shit and wolverine thinks batman is writing about him, when really he's writing about him and his brother

>> No.32738109

I'm late to the party but I just want to point out that there are real-world trees that are over 300 ft tall, with some redwoods approaching 400 ft. Don't forget to take into account the fact that the subterranean portion of these trees, if uprooted, would conservatively add another 50+ ft of height.

My point is that if the wall were only, for example, 200 ft high it would be possible to actually make a ramp up the wall using some enormous trees positioned by giants and mammoths.

>> No.32738219

>>32733964
They aren't though, in the books or the show.

>> No.32738221

>>32737936
>*tips fedora*

>> No.32738374

>>32736912
maybe dragons need thermals to get to any significant altitude

white walker dragons when

>> No.32738379

>>32738221
Just because he called you out on your incredibly euphoric post doesn't mean you have to pout like a faggy little kid. It's really not helping your credibility.

>> No.32738411

Hey, this seems like a worldbuilding thread.

Anybody have the guide on how to physically build a world? Involved plates and arrows and whatnot.

>> No.32738436

>>32738379

Posting a dumb meme isn't really "calling him out."
Unless you mean "calling him out to a dumb meme posting contest" in which case I think your image puts you in the lead!

>> No.32738456

>>32737198
>>32737299

I am astounded at how incapable some posters are of acknowledging that someone might disagree with them and not be a troll. Where di you get that I was a troll? The three posts I made were respectful and clearly stated my reasons for my opinion. When did reasonable discussion with someone who disagrees become LOL U TROL ME?

The ring was in the end destroyed by Gollum. For all of the hundreds of pages we had to endure Frodo and Sam being utterly boring, in the end had it not been for Gollum, the ring would not have been destroyed. That's what I mean.

And again, LotR fans have this readymade response of "he invented everything." Which is beyond ridiculous. Sure, he invented a lot of things, and popularized many others, but I'm not talking about races (yes, the hairy warlike dwarves who hate the tall beautiful elves pretty much was created whole-cloth). I'm talking about the story structure, which was utterly cliche. Or overdone, or unoriginal, or whatever you want to call it. I'm not saying that's inherently a bad thing, nor am I saying LotR is a bad series of books. I just think that because of the amount of time Tolkien invested in his world, and the lengths he went to establish it in incredible detail, make fans super defensive to any criticism and not able to recognize that holy crap, it's not the be-all-and-end-all of human literature. Story-wise, it's pretty standard fare - a group of valiant heroes with plucky bumbling sidekicks try to find/secure ancient artifact before the evil king with his hordes gets it to take over the lands. He did not invent this. This type of story is practically ancient - look at pretty much all folklore, and you'll find tons of things like this. That's my point - he gets lauded so much for creativity, which is definitely earned in many respects, but from the perspective of actually coming up with innovative plots or conflicts, he basically threaded water.

>> No.32738487

>>32738374
Never. All their names are gonna be crappy jinxes for how they die.
Viserion is gonna get killed by a "Golden crown" when Jaime get's control after Tommen dies.
Rhaegaris is gonna get his shit beat in by a Baratheon.
And Drogon is gonna pull an Achilles and get killed by poison or something lame.

>> No.32738494

>>32738456
>Where di you get that I was a troll?

I said I'd LIKE TO THINK that you're a troll. It's nicer than the alternatives.

>> No.32738539

>>32738379

>> No.32738541

>>32732660
Because they have 5+ years of winter at a time, so i imagine it grows a bit

>> No.32738550

>>32738494
...The alternative of having a well-thought out reason for my not-insane opinion?

I thought this was supposed to be a friendly board, I don't come here often guys, don't make me think you're all mean to anyone who disagrees.

>> No.32738552

Why does there even need to be a gate built into the wall? If there is nothing but zombies and cannibals on the other side and the land has literally no value since it's a literal frozen wasteland there's no point in having access to it.

>> No.32738580

>>32738436
Yes, god forbid anyone use mey meys in your presence because you're just too cool for all that aren't you?

You can debate it's objective "goodness" all you want, it was relevant and he didn't use it wrong, and your post was still euphoric as fuck.

fag.

>> No.32738596

>>32738550
>I thought this was supposed to be a friendly board
Go fuck yourself.

>> No.32738615

>>32738580
>mey meys

GTFO.

Also, I was not the guy you think I am.

>> No.32738650

>>32738552
I think they need supplies from the other side, and they send scouts periodically to check up on whether or not some willing clan is planning to attack.

Think about it this way - without the gate, they couldn't go beyond the wall. Without that, they wouldn't have known Mance was coming with an army until he was at their doorstep. Unprepared Watch gets slaughtered, wildlings kill half the North before any potential victory for the Seven Kingdoms.

And that's why you have a gate.

>> No.32738654

>>32738550
>>32738550
>I thought this was supposed to be a friendly board, I don't come here often guys, don't make me think you're all mean to anyone who disagrees.

Well, /tg/ is usually pretty laid back, but you are treading on thin ice by badmouthing Tolkien like that, man.

>> No.32738657

>>32738411

I have this very oversimplified introduction to worldbuilding.

>> No.32738690

>>32738596
Seriously, a friend who visits told me it was pretty cool, a bunch of laid-back guys.

You're clearly mentally imbalanced, so I won't hold it against /tg/. Who in their right mind responds to "there's a stereotype that you're good people" with "go fuck yourself"?

>> No.32738734

>>32738615
Did you really not see the sarcasm in that line? Did you really just use GTFO seriously?

Man, you really are exceptionally dumb.

>> No.32738737

>>32738552

Because they need to go beyond the Wall to cut keep the forest from encroaching on it and to keep tabs on the Wildlings who can still launch raids without necessarily needing a gate.

>> No.32738753

>>32734799
The ocean freezes around Newfoundland every few years. People can skate on it. It gets that cold in real life.

>> No.32738754

>>32738654
>thread about giant ice wall
>threading on thin ice

Serendipity is a wonderful thing sometimes.

>> No.32738766

>>32738690

We get trolls and /b/tards here, too.

>>32738734

Oh, I SAW the sarcasm, and I still said GTFO.
Some shit is unforgivable.

>> No.32738789

>>32738657

Thats the exact one I was looking for, thank you.

>> No.32738799

ITT: Summerfags

>> No.32738815

>>32738650
Everything you said is pointless.

If they never ventured behind the wall in the first place then Mance wouldn't even exist to unite the wildlings attack.

Additionally, you practically wouldn't even need a nights watch aside from occasional repairs which basically just consists of pouring water on broken ice to make more ice.

Defending a solid wall with no openings is almost impossible to fail at. Firstly, the knowledge of the wall having no openings that can be exploited would discourage most wildling tribes (and they would only be tribes, since as we established, Mance would never have gone beyond the wall). Secondly, if you can't defend an 800 foot high wall from withered savages climbing it, you fucking fail at everything. If anything it would make sense for the Watch to only exist on the south side of the wall to murder tired wildlings who actually DID manage to climb it.

>> No.32738890

>>32732363
At least you can go around in less than 12 parsecs.

>> No.32738908

>>32738815

They also need big chunks of ice from north of the wall, for major repairs.

>> No.32738916

>>32738815
>Mance wouldn't even exist to unite the wildlings attack.
>No one would exist to bring a warrior culture to a place where summer actually exists and starving to death isn't a common thing

Also if they couldn't get to the other side, whats to stop a dozen wildlings from running up to the wall at night and chipping away at it for the next week and make there own hole to get through?

>> No.32738936

>>32738815
Everything you said presupposes that Mance was some impossible messiah who was unique.

He was not the first King Beyond The Wall, he won't be the last. If it wasn't him, then eventually some wildling dude would do the same thing. And without scouts, they would be totally unprepared. 800ft tall wall doesn't mean anything if you're a hundred dudes fighting 100 000.

Spoiler if you haven't read the books, but without Stannin's reinforcements, Jon Snow and pals would be Thenn meat. Sun Tzu couldn't hold that fort, not with those numbers.

And you forget that the primary reason for the wall is the whitewalkers. And apparently this creepy forest needs to be cut down, which requires a door.

>> No.32739001

>>32738936
Have you ever tried to climb most of the way up the Chrysler building before? Have you ever done so with people firing weapons and dumping shit on top of you?

Have you ever seen an 800 foot tall siege engine? Can you imagine needing to build a skyscraper out of wood and stone, just to scale this wall?

>> No.32739015

>>32738916
The same thing that stopped the mammoth from pulling down the gate: throwing barrels of fiery rocks and shooting arrows down on them from atop the wall.

Also, it would take A LOT more than a dozen wildlings from chipping through the wall. It's over 50 feet thick at the base and is supposed to be as tough as stone, it would be impossible not to notice the snow niggers from mining through it.

>> No.32739088

>>32739001
>>32739015
Wildings have gotten around the wall before. There was at least one King Beyond the Wall who managed to get so far past the Wall that the Starks had to go fight the wilding army on open ground. They won, but the Stark king died, and his brother was so pissed off at the Watch for letting them past, that he gave the Watch the task of burying all the dead from the battle.

>> No.32739097

>>32738916
If cutting through the wall was a feasible option Mance would have done exactly that. He has 100,000 men and giants and work mammoths. If he can't get the job done with that, the job ain't getting done by a dozen guys.

>> No.32739140

>>32739001
Wildlings have successfully climbed the wall before, that's a plot point, so your complaint is moot.

And again, them being ready for an invason presupposes they had advanced warning. Remember, Night Watch is a bunch of incompetent thieves and rapists. They're not a disciplined military that can prepare good anti-invasion maneuvers in ten, twenty, thirty minutes.

One other thing - Zerg rush. There are simply so many Wildlings that the Watch would probably run out of anything to throw at them before they managed to kill half the attacking army. They have no way to get more supplies, food and water.

Most sieges succeed if you can hold them long enough. 100 000 wildlings against 10 underequipped, undertrained men? Not even Jeor Mormont believed in his boys that much to think they would stand a chance.

>> No.32739153

>>32739015
>it would be impossible not to notice
The wall is 800 feet high and barely manned. All they would have to do is wait until a dark night and start clinking away and chances are no one would notice. It may not happen in a week but they could do it. How do you throw rocks at someone if they already have a groove to hide under? Even if you did kill them you now have a hole that another group can work on. Given this becomes a common attempt you are now screwed

>> No.32739160

>>32739140
Clarification - this supposes there is no door/gate, and thus no scouts to give them advanced warning.

>> No.32739190

>>32739153
Again, this begs the question that if it really is possible to dig through the wall, why has it never been done in like, 10,000 years?

>> No.32739198

>>32739097
It's not a feasible option when the enemy can get to you. That's the point of this discussion. Why try to make your own hole when the Night watch already made one for you? If the night watch couldn't get to the other side, their would be dozens of half finish tunnel to hide in

>> No.32739213

ITT: Showfags

>> No.32739224

>>32739190
Wildlings are stupid, tribal, disorganized and unmotivated.

Rarely have enough of them united to have ambitions of fighting the Watch on their field, and even rarer was the situation such that the Watch was as weak as it is and all the clans united.

>> No.32739251

>>32739190
Because the Watch has scouts that look at the wildling side of the wall looking for holes. Whenever one is found, the wildlings working on it get killed and the hole filled up. If the watch didn't have eyes from the ground view this tactic would go unnoticed.

>> No.32739285

>>32739213
I read the books a decade ago (the first three, then four when it came out, then five recently). So years and years before it was super popular.

And I still hate you morons who go around touting the fact that you got into a fandom slightly before it became mainstream. You are literally hipsters.

GoT makes me happy, because, hey, I can talk about something I like with a bunch of people! Earlier, nobody had even heard of the books. Sure, the new fans may mostly be show-only, but the adaptation is close enough for it not to truly matter.

Be open to new things, anon, you'll enjoy life more.

>> No.32739357

>>32739251
But it's been established that the wall is so poorly manned that there are barely 100 men on the entire thing, they can't defend the whole thing.

Furthermore, this still doesn't prove why the gate is necessary. You could still just send scouts out through an elevator system, and if you get overrun with wildlings like in the last episode you just break the ropes/pulleys/gears at the top so it becomes useless.

>> No.32739394

>>32739357
>Extra, extra, ancient military does something inefficiently, shock of the decade

>> No.32739431

>>32739394
You do realize that they currently have a literal elevator already, right?

Also I retrace my statement, you wouldn't have to destroy the elevator if you get overrun because you could design it so that it needs to be pulled from the top. And even if it wasn't designed like that, if the wildlings try to use it and pull themselves up you can just drop boiling oil on them on the way up, they couldn't use it against you.

>> No.32739456

>>32739357
That was only after the botched expedition beyond the wall.

And a second elevator would be incredibly inefficient. Not only would you have to build the damn thing, but you'd have to go up and over the Wall every time you wanted to send scouts out.

>> No.32739515

>>32739456
A single 10 year old boy was shown sending people up and down the wall in a couple of minutes in the last episode. It's not a big deal, especially since they don't send scouts out very often, and they don't send very many scouts out at a time.

>> No.32739543

>>32739357
The point isn't defending, it's upkeep. The builders exist for a reason. Over 8000 years of attempted wilding digging would mean the wall would be covered with holes

>You could still just send scouts out through an elevator system
You would still have to build that and once there is a force to dangerous for your men to fight one elevator load at a time it becomes useless. Then the wildlings just start digging and you can't do anything about that.

>> No.32739570

>>32739431
You wouldn't be able to bring horses, you'd have to wait for multiple trips to bring down the whole group if you're bringing more than ten men, and it would be terribly easy to sabotage in the night if the wildings felt like stopping you from sending down any patrols this month.

>> No.32739605

>>32739543
But in the current situation the wildlings could also start digging, it's not like the watch can mount an offensive against them and hope not to get wrecked almost instantly, but the wildlings don't bother to dig now because the gate is so easily overcome.

>> No.32739635

>>32736153
>>32736165
>>32736532

>Jon and Arya are sitting in a tavern
>Minstrel singing
>"DON'T STOP BELIEEEEEVING, HOLD ON TO THAT--"
>cut to black

>> No.32739649

>>32739605
It's easier to defend a hole you made leading into your castle, than it is to defend one you enemy made that could open up anywhere.

>> No.32739656

>>32739605
The wildlings think there are still thousands of men left in the Night's Watch, if they knew better they would just spread out and climb it all at once

>> No.32739677

>>32739515
Then why doesn't every castle in westeros use elevators instead of gates?

Because it's too damn costly, complicated, and inefficient. Hell, there might not be anybody who even knows how to build a 800 foot elevator anymore.

>> No.32739701

>>32739677
>Then why doesn't every castle in westeros use elevators instead of gates?

Because there's a big difference between a stone wall that a mason built, and a magical 800 foot sheet of ice that's stood for thousands of years.

>> No.32739740

>>32736697
As far as worldbuilding goes you can't really trump Tolkein. He created more characters, countries and cultures, and gave them more background than the mythology of entire nations. And to mention that he is packed full of cliches is just foolish; he invented most of them. Almost every single thing you see in any fantasy you can name in the last 50 years is only there because Tolkein did it first.

>> No.32739801

>>32732459
I don't see how it would be possible to read GRRM and confuse him with a literate American.

>She thinks about the way her shirt feels on her soft, young breasts
>And then everyone dies

There. I just saved you the trouble of ever reading them.

>> No.32739806

>>32739740
>this discussion again

>> No.32739819

>>32739801
>implying dragons, ice zombies, brutal action scenes, political intrigue, death and porn aren't the perfect combo

>> No.32739828

>>32739515
That is in the show. The show is shitty and illogical. In the books the lift is extremely slow and is mainly used for transporting large loads of supplies, it's much faster for people to walk up the stairs, which don't exist in the show. I can't know what these fictional people were thinking, but building an 800-foot medieval lift would be an exceptional feat of engineering, and placing such a valuable and difficult-to-construct piece of machinery out on the far side of the Wall would leave it very vulnerable, and if it were destroyed it would be a lot of money/man-hours down the drain, and you would have no way to get down there to repair it, to boot!

The tunnel is not very difficult to design, though it takes a long time to build one, it can be collapsed in an emergency. The multiple iron gates are very defensible, excepting I suppose against giants, but even still you must remember that even with the Night's Watch at its historic all-time weakest, they were able to stop giants from getting through. Ranging missions beyond the Wall are necessary for a few reasons: it is essential to clear the growth of the Haunted Forest near the Wall, to keep a clear view to watch for attackers. The sappers previously mentioned would have no trouble if they could not be seen from above. Reconnaissance missions and good relations with the Wildlings are very useful, and in older times the Watch would probably have made use of the extensive growth of weirwood trees.

>> No.32739829

>>32739740
Pretty much. Basically every fantasy "worldbuilder" since Tolkein just files the serial numbers off of IRL cultures, comes up with the common tongue (english), adds widely available magic and calls it a day.

>> No.32739838

>>32739740
that guy already outed himself as a reddit summer fag. just ignore him. its not worth the effort

>> No.32739869

>>32732621
>>32732638
Bran the Builder built it. That's where his name came from.

>> No.32739895

>>32732660
That's what the builders are for.

>> No.32739913

>>32739838
>implying reddit

Then again, you outed yourself as mentally imbalanced and rage-prone. So it's not surprising to see delusion thrown in as well.

>> No.32739934

>>32732729
In those days, the wall was 1000 feet high.

>> No.32739945

>>32739913
>so new to 4chan that you cant even follow anons

im not the anon you think i am

>> No.32739957

>>32739934
Fucking grrm...

>> No.32739959

>>32732842
>cause it to freeze and crack and become brittle, like they could if it was stone.
>stone
Uh
Are you maybe thinking of metal? Because stone doesn't do that.

>> No.32739991

>>32739959
If water freezes inside a crack in a rock it can split it in half.

>> No.32740013

>>32739945
>two anonymous anons share opinion
>mistaking one for the other is apparently a sign of being new

Shit, I guess you develop telepathy if you've been around the site since 1987.

>> No.32740067

>>32740013
i think the phrase im looking for is....lurk more

>> No.32740085

>>32733565
>and our old ruins and temples are piddling things.
The Great Wall of China is longer by both length and volume than the Wall in the North. Some of the southwestern Indians had cities that were unrivaled until the industrial revolution, too.

>> No.32740100

So /tg/ Whats you overall favourite setting?

>> No.32740121

>>32734361
The pope is an upjumped Orthodox patriarch.

>> No.32740134

>>32732622
>And why don't the Wildlings just sail around the wall?
They do. IIRC, that was how Osha and her companions got south. Others make it thought the gorge on the West side of the wall. Other go over. All three routes are treacherous as fuck, so few attempt it, and fewer still survive.

>> No.32740142

>>32740085
the wall of china is a disconnected pile of shit

>> No.32740147

>>32733753
>>32733729
>yfw Tyrion literally pissed off the wall

>> No.32740258

>>32736602
Tolkien was never really a stellar writer. It's kind of a low bar. As long as he doesn't go calling himself a better worldbuilder, it's a reasonable opinion even if I don't personally agree.

>> No.32740348

>>32740258
>tolkien was not a good writer because i say so
>ill allow you to have the opinion that he was an ok world builder because i said so

wow thank you for your completely worthless and edgy input anon. im so happy youll allow me to have certain opinions

no one gives a shit you just got your english degree anon. fuck off

>> No.32740353

>>32739829
>Who is Greg Stafford

Nigger, I hate you.

>> No.32740377

>>32740348
Calm down man, you'll give yourself an ulcer.

>> No.32740411

>>32740353
>Who is Greg Stafford

>Francis Gregory Stafford (born February 9, 1948), usually known as Greg Stafford, is an American game designer, publisher and self-proclaimed shaman.

>> No.32740424

>>32733729
See, you're thinking like a guy. Guy's don't like being pissed on. A wall made out of ice? Who knows how it feels about it. Maybe it stings a little at first, because it's warm, but then the piss freezes and it feels good, because more ice means the wall can grow. The wall probably likes being pissed on.

>> No.32740484

>>32740100

Possibly the one you posted. Although I can't take it seriously as a pre-history Earth at all. Really the entire geography of the thing is fucknuts even by the standards of most fantasy but I just like the feel of the world.

>>32740147

That took me longer to get than I would like to admit.

>>32740258

I never really understood why everyone holds up Tolkien as the pinnacle in worldbuilding. Not that he was bad or anything but I don't really see why he's the golden standard everything since must be held up to.

>> No.32740500

>>32733908
How do they even measure a "year" in Westeros? Is it just some arbitrary number of days? 12 moon cycles? It can't be based around the seasons or the sun because those are unreliable as fuck in that world.

>> No.32740530

>>32739957

Eh, what's an extra 200 feet to forest children magic?

>> No.32740541

>>32732459

Lack of proper understanding for scale.

It actually happens more often then you would think.

I used to climb free-handed 60ft rock ledges nearby a railroad track when I was a kid.

Went there a couple years back and my Vertigo was like "Nope, fuck that noise"

>> No.32740563

>>32740484
>I don't really see why he's the golden standard everything since must be held up to.

because we are still waiting for a setting to match it. hurbert was pretty great too

>> No.32740600

>>32740563

I think Frank Herbert Dune has something magical about it. Especially the first book.

>> No.32740612

>>32740484
>Not that he was bad or anything but I don't really see why he's the golden standard everything since must be held up to.

It's hard to see unless you talk to folks who were around back when LotR came out. It was like
Everything before LotR -> LotR -> Everything after

It was huge and incredibly influential and unlike anything anybody had done before. Now, with decades of awful LotR clones being used as doorstops, it's tough to see what was so amazing.

>> No.32740639

>>32738109
Redwoods are special. Nothing like them can grow in climates found on Westeros.

Also, it's more than twice as high as the biggest redwoods. And redwoods are so big that they're considered semi- (or fully) divine by pretty much anyone who believes a tree can have divinity.

>> No.32740735

>>32739991
Yes, but the rock isn't brittle, and the crack wasn't caused by the cold.

>> No.32740753

>>32736736
There are relatively few villains that the readers can't relate to in some way. Even Baelish is fairly sympathetic. The only real monsters in the series are Joffrey, Ramsay, and Gregor. Everyone else has motivations that are more or less understandable, even if it leads them to be evil jackasses.

>> No.32740790

>>32740348
Yeah, you show that faggot with the passable grasp of the English language! No capitalization! That will show the fucker what you think of his "writing"!

>> No.32740810

>>32740484
>I don't really see why he's the golden standard everything since must be held up to.
He worldbuilt so hard he all but built the fantasy genre.

>> No.32740844

>>32740500
Generally, only the Maesters speak of years. So it's probably an amount of days or of months, yeah.

>> No.32740863

>>32740753
Even Joffrey's at least better in the book than the show.

>> No.32741001

>>32737883
>Totally fair. I just mean that 8000 year continuity of family names stretches credulity much farther than an 800 foot high ice wall.
It's really just the one name, "Stark", and that lineage apparently has some kind of magical significance. That name sticks around because it has to, destiny and shit. Hell, it's entirely possible that the Starks HAVE died out, and some cousin or another was all "Whelp, I'm named Stark now." and because there HAS to be a Stark in Winterfell people went along with it.

>> No.32741071

>>32741001
Even so 8000 years is too fucking much.

Unless Stark is actually a corrupt shorter version of Estarcunawellzinav the Great.

>> No.32741278

>>32739140
And again, them being ready for an invason presupposes they had advanced warning. Remember, Night Watch is a bunch of incompetent thieves and rapists. They're not a disciplined military that can prepare good anti-invasion maneuvers in ten, twenty, thirty minutes.
>Maybe you outta look at the composition of the incredibly well disciplined and effective British army under Wellington. Famous for being full of the many of England's most useless gutter trash they formed one of the most effective fighting forces in history. It's obvious from the book and show that they are actually fairly well trained by the standards of the Westeros, they're just painfully outnumbered.

One other thing - Zerg rush. There are simply so many Wildlings that the Watch would probably run out of anything to throw at them before they managed to kill half the attacking army. They have no way to get more supplies, food and water.
>Most of their supplies come from the south on their own side of the wall not the north. No reason for them to really run out aside from, again, lack of manpower to go fetch and stockpile more.

Most sieges succeed if you can hold them long enough.
> Most sieges are of castles or cities, not entire countries with more land and supplies than the besieging force. There are historical examples of an attacker having insufficient logistics to actually maintain a siege, where his entire army is sitting in place with no local resources to live off of.

>> No.32741279

>>32732363
faggoty nickpicking general?

>> No.32741288

>>32739656
But that's stupid. They have a new bird-warg every other episode now. We've seen them use an owl to watch the guys on the wall. With that kind of intelligence-gathering capability, it's incomprehensible that they wouldn't know how many men they have, or at least have a damn good idea.

>> No.32741305

>>32741278

>How do I into quote marks?

>> No.32741308

>>32740810
Tolkien was a marvel, but I honestly thin he was a bad influence on the fantasy genre. Tolkien was a linguist and a mythology buff with decades of study. When he wrote, he was drawing on his crazy invented universe that he built over years and years just so his imaginary languages would have a proper background. When he wrote about epic warfare and battles, he was drawing on his experiences in the Somme, and I don't know if that name still has currency today but it fucking should. If later authors had chosen to copy Howard instead then fantasy literature might not be in its current miserable state.

>> No.32741318

>>32734799

the sea froze in north Germany a few years back, i'd left about 2 weeks before it happened.

You could walk out about 800 feet

>> No.32741335

>>32735997

Because Dany is Azor Ahai and she must defeat the demons.

>> No.32741362

>>32732622
The wildlings do sail around the wall, in small boats occasionally.

Any big invasion would get knocked the fuck back by the North, which has the second largest navy in the second, possibly with assistance from the Iron Islands (Number 1)

>> No.32741375

>>32741308

Nah, we had a couple of decades of awful Conan knock-offs before the decades of awful Tolkien knock-offs. It really wasn't any better, just a much smaller market.

That and most people had to dress their fantasy up as sci fi in order to get a publisher, simply because the market was so small.
"Ummm.. It's on another planet. Done."

>> No.32741392

>>32741335
Dany is a shit character who hasn't done anything for two entire books.
She seriously needs to get fucking killed.

>> No.32741419

>>32741362
In the seven kingdoms*

>> No.32741426

>>32741308
>Tolkien was awful for fantasy because no one will put time into mythology and linguistics and have fought fight in war to give it a proper go.
That's what I'm getting and it's true. Write what you know, and all modern writers do is try and pull a Shakespeare in stealing what they liked growing but instead pulls of a paschie. It's rare to find a single fantasy writer who has lived a life that can produce anything worthwhile to write with.

>> No.32741430

>>32732492
OP is bitching about the architectural details about a magic fucking wall

>> No.32741447

>>32741426
Hence why I like Herbert.

>> No.32741463

>>32741305
Bah, I wasn't paying attention and did the entire thing backwards. So sue me.

>> No.32741466

>>32741308
i think thats why herbert was so good at world building too. lots of experiences to draw on and he took his time

>Though he became famous for his science fiction, he was also a newspaper journalist, photographer, short story writer, book reviewer, ecological consultant and lecturer.

>He served in the U.S. Navy's Seabees for six months as a photographer during World War II

>Dune took six years of research and writing to complete and it was much longer than commercial science fiction of the time was supposed to run

>> No.32741513

>>32738815
Mance is not the first King Beyond The Wall.

>> No.32741521

>>32741466
>yfw you realize a new generation of warriors will soon be looking for their employ

>> No.32741553

>>32732535
>If they make the air colder by their very presence shouldn't the sea freeze if you got a big army of them on the coast?
There's a 32 degree Fahrenheit difference between freshwater freezing and seawater.

And that ignores size and motion.

>>32732557
It's a hoover dam running over an area longer than the coastline of Washington and Oregon combined. And it's made of giant blocks of ice.

>> No.32741569

>>32741521
Nah, they'll be busy getting labeled as terrorists by the government for supporting the constitution.

>> No.32741588

>>32741569
Some will, no doubt. But there's a lot of them.

>> No.32741647

>>32741588

I just wish fantasy had someone of the caliber of I dont know... A Youcernar with her Memoirs of Hadrian, or a Saramago.

>> No.32741661

>>32741553
>There's a 32 degree Fahrenheit difference between freshwater freezing and seawater.
>yfw Celciusfags try to argue that their measures are better due to being based on something as common and unchanging as the freezing and boiling points of water

>> No.32741714

>>32741071
>Unless Stark is actually a corrupt shorter version of Estarcunawellzinav the Great.
Well sure, there's bound to have been some language drift, so who the fuck knows how the name was pronounced 8000 years ago. It could be that Stark wasn't even always a family name, it may have just been their word for "King".

To GRRM's credit, issues of translation and language shift are recurring themes in the novels: "Karstark" evolved from "Karhold Starks", House Magnar of Skagos turned the old-tongue word for "warchief" in to their family name, those who trace their Lineage back to Lann the Clever call themselves "Lannister" now, "Greyjoy" stems from the house of the Grey King, and so on.

And this is all assuming the presented history of ASoIaF is supposed to be reliable, and we have reason to believe it isn't. We have families alive today with the last name "Levi" who claim to be descended from that particular son of Jacob, though they have nothing to back up that claim.

>> No.32741722

>>32741569
When has that happened in the last like... 30 years?
A veteran getting labelled a terrorist for supporting the constitution I mean.

>> No.32741802 [DELETED] 

>>32741430
you are on /tg/

>> No.32741818

>>32741722
The guys out at Bundy Ranch have been called domestic terrorists. I eagerly await why you think that doesn't count.

>> No.32741829

>>32741722

>> No.32741836

>>32741722
Did you miss Ms. Napolitano's report on returning veterans? Apparently being patriotic about your country makes you a terrorist, though I guess when a terrorist is anyone the regime doesn't like, and the regime is full of traitors, a loyal man becomes a terrorist.

>> No.32741882

>>32741818
The guys out at the Bundy ranch are not defending the fucking constitution you dipshit.
They're defending a fucker breaking state and federal law. In fact they're supporting a fucker breaking state law, a state law saying he should follow the federal law, federal law, and by default he's acting against the constition he's doing it because he's a cheap asshole,
This is of course ignoring his comment where he denies the US government existing.

>> No.32741891

>>32741569
>>32741722
>>32741818
>>32741836
No
Bad
Stop
Take it to /pol/
This thread is already shitty enough without bringing unrelated politics into it.

>> No.32741901

>>32741882

This is why as a libertarian I hate libertarians who don't actually believe in the constitution.

>> No.32741918

>>32741882
>The guys out at the Bundy ranch are not defending the fucking constitution you dipshit.
They think they are.

>> No.32741925

>>32741901

Although I will admit the fed used excessive force.

This is like sending paramilitary wannabe operators to bust some kid for selling pot

>> No.32741937

>>32741882
>>32741901
>>32741918
plz stahp

>> No.32742013

>>32741918
If they do they're fucking nuts.
Well... I guess that was pretty self evident from the start really.

>> No.32742021

>>32741818
The constitution includes its amendments. They may have had moral grounds, but not constitutional grounds.

>> No.32742048

>>32741882
>This is of course ignoring his comment where he denies the US government existing.
It's worth noting that this is usually taken out of context. He knows it's an association that exists in the literal sense, he just doesn't recognize it as existing in the way that it doesn't recognize Turkish Cyprus as existing.

>> No.32742075

>>32741918
No they don't. They think they're defending America from federal tyranny, and they think they're on the same side the founders (who did, after all, overthrow a government because of taxes) but that's not the same as supporting the constitution even if the two often go together.

>> No.32742087

>>32742048
Or the way America bizarrely denies that Palestine exists even though basically the entire rest of the world either acknowledges it exists or refuses to comment.

>> No.32742136

>>32741925
>Although I will admit the fed used excessive force.

No, no they didn't.
Police officers were assaulted, police dogs were kicked, and a couple of protesters were pushed.

This was followed by the protesters threatening violent revolution, blocking the road (While armed), and pointing their goddamn loaded firearms at police officers.

The only side that has killed people here are the protesters.

>> No.32742159

>>32742048
I know, it's still ass backwards. As he cites the law of the state of Nevada, which gives the rights to this organization.

Dude's a dumbass.

>> No.32742171

>>32742136
>pointing their goddamn loaded firearms at police officers.

It's ok when police do it to citizens, why not when citizens do it to police?

>> No.32742251

>>32742171
All the arguments one could possibly make about individual rights, and the police having no special privileges, fall apart immediately when you realize that the protesters started the gun pointing.

At that point the question becomes.
"Why is it not ok for citizens to arm loaded firearms at people and threaten to fire?"

>> No.32742264

>>32742136

Nice shilling statist

>> No.32742312

>>32742251
>"Why is it not ok for citizens to arm loaded firearms at people and threaten to fire?"
I would suggest the same reason it's not ok for police to do it, except police do it all the fucking time since they are psychotic bandits drunk on power.

>> No.32742319

>>32741661
>Not offsetting freezing and boiling by 180 degrees
>Not making easy circular gauges
France do you even practical sciences?

>> No.32742399

>>32742312
Ok so let's recap here:

Cliven Bundy is a guy who doesn't want to pay what he owes. Citing a law that states he has to pay what he owes.
He gets a couple of his friends together who parade around with weapons and starts threatening to shoot police officers.
And the police are the bad guys who are "Psychotic"?

I got that right?

I think it's time you just stopped.
You're not doing your political ideology any favours by presenting it this poorly.

>> No.32742547

>>32742399
>a couple of his friends
>White Mountain Militia
>Praetorian Guard
>Oath Keepers
Yeah, no. People rallied around him for a reason. You might not like the reason, but the state charging the public for the use of public land is still a cause even if it isn't yours.

>> No.32742577

>>32742399
>still can't defend America's police
No surprise there.

I don't actually give a shit about the libertarian leech being libertarian and a leech, by the way, I just find it funny to watch you squirm away from attempting to defend American police as anything other than utter scum of the earth who should all be shot (before they shoot us, as they're wont to do).

>> No.32742708

>>32742547
That's not their cause actually. It never was nor will it ever be their cause.

Their cause is the same tired old sovereign citizen shit it always has been. The fact of the matter however is that they are directly and provably wrong about their claims in this case.

>>32742577
You're nuts.

>> No.32742715

>>32742577
>look ma, I can move goalposts!

Also I'd love to hear you repeat that to an actual cop.

>> No.32742768

>>32742577
youre about to get rescued so hard anon. im sure moot already sold your info to the nsa

>> No.32742843

So how the fuck did an ASOIAF thread become a /pol/ thread?

>> No.32742885

>>32742843
Because /pol/bertarians will never, ever, shut the fuck up.

>> No.32742887

>>32741362

Uh, the North doesn't have a navy at all. The lords along the coast probably have a few galleys each to protect against raiders but that hardly makes the North a naval power.

>> No.32742896

>>32742843

It happened here: >>32741521

Shame on you poster of post 32741521.

>> No.32742983

>>32742577
>all American police are the same
No. I ain't going to defend people like the LAPD, but my local police are good people who remember that their job is to serve the community.

>> No.32743003

>>32742887
The North beat the Iron Islanders in naval battles during the rebellion.

However I was wrong, I based their power off that fact but apparently that shit was a fluke and they lost most of their fleet during the reign of "Brandon the Burner".
I'll let you guess why.

>> No.32743007

>>32742896
S-sorry. I was just talking about the upcoming crop of potential novelists...

>> No.32743015

>>32742312
>psychotic bandits drunk on power
Confirmed never talking to a cop. Motherfucker I'm an anarchist and even I recognize that a shit ton of cops are normal people who try to do what they think is right. You're an idiot if you think otherwise.

>> No.32743036

>>32743015
>I'm an anarchist

ah the joys of summer

>> No.32743040

>>32743015

>b-b-but I'm defending something I shouldn't like due to my political outlook, i must be right then!

>> No.32743043

>>32743015

Hey now, maybe he lives in LA.

>> No.32743079

>>32743007

Sorry no, my mistake. It was: >>32741569. You just provided his springboard.

>> No.32743090

>>32743036
Been here for years bud.

>>32743043
Possible but even then you ought to know better if you're even slightly aware of the world at large.

>> No.32743114

>>32743090
im not your bud, champ

>> No.32743129

>>32743003
I just checked the wiki and you know what really popped into my head again.

GRRMS fucking fetish for essos.
Everything is better there.
Ignoring the fact that the seven kingdoms is the largest unified fucking country there is, they're still punks at everything.

"Oh the big houses in Westeros have maybe 30 ships"
"The thirteen control 10000 ships, and they're just one of 3 factions in Qarth"

"Okay so the armies of the seven kingdoms are pretty great"
"NOT AS GREAT AS THEY ARE IN ESSOS"

"Damn those lannisters must be rolling in dough"
"AIN'T SHIT COMPARE TO WHAT'S GOING ON IN ESSOS"

>> No.32743185

>>32743114
I'm not your champ pal

>> No.32743220

>>32743129
No seriously, by all rights the seven kingdoms should be the single most powerful nation on the goddamn planet.
They're a CONTINENT to themselves.

But no, they're punks.
At everything.

>> No.32743242

>>32743220
That's a good point actually, never thought of it that way. Why the fuck aren't they more useful? Is it because of all the infighting? I imagine that could keep them relatively useless.

>> No.32743274

>>32743129
essos a shit

the reach master race

>> No.32743357

>>32743274
The reach are punks.
They have neither the wealth, the ships, or the soldiers of one fucking city state in Essos.

>>32743242
The constant internal saber rattling should at least leave them with a comparable army and navy.
But no.

>> No.32743394

>>32743357
>They have neither the wealth, the ships, or the soldiers of one fucking city state in Essos.

if thats actually true grr has some splanin to do. sounds like more botched figures

>> No.32743642

>>32743357
shitskin please go

>> No.32743656

>>32743129
>Ignoring the fact that the seven kingdoms is the largest unified fucking country there is, they're still punks at everything

Largest territory means nothing. Has Canada traditionally been more powerful than Great Britain? Large portions of the Westerosi continent are extremely sparsely populated. Plus, 'unified' is a very loose term to apply to Westeros. There are nine separate regions that essentially govern themselves and are competing and maneuvering against one other even when not engaged in open war.

>Oh the big houses in Westeros have maybe 30 ships

The royal navy alone has three hundred (quite large) ships before the War of Five Kings depletes their numbers. The Arbor has another two hundred. The various major lords probably have another hundred large ships and several times that in longboats and the Ironborn have another five hundred or so longboats.

>The thirteen control 10000 ships, and they're just one of 3 factions in Qarth

All three major Qartheen factions have a total of about three thousand ships between them. And while that's still a lot we don't have any idea as to the average size of those ships or how many of them are actual warships as opposed to merchant vessels (and it should be kept in mind that these factions are essentially merchant factions)

>Okay so the armies of the seven kingdoms are pretty great
>NOT AS GREAT AS THEY ARE IN ESSOS

The only military forces in Essos that I can think of that have a significant reputation are the Unsullied and the only reason the slavers made such great soldiers in the first place was because they had absolutely nothing else of value to trade. Meanwhile the Dothraki hordes that control large portions of Essos probably wouldn't stand a chance against the plate armor and castles of Westeros.

>Damn those lannisters must be rolling in dough
>AIN'T SHIT COMPARE TO WHAT'S GOING ON IN ESSOS

Most of Essos was part of the greatest empire to ever exist and have access to a lot of wealth.

>> No.32743843

>>32743656
>essos getting BTFO

>> No.32743858

>>32743394
The figures are botched by GRRM.

Qarth has a ship for basically every soldier the Reach can bring to bear.

The unsullied are sold in batches of thousands (Daenarys got over 10,000). and each can beat 16 dothraki

The golden company, a single mercenary company, has 10,000 members.

The Second siege of Mereen includes about three the amount of soldiers the sack of King's Landing did...
On one side.

>> No.32743959

>>32743858

So its basically ancient world Alexander style battles against dark ages norman invasion figures.

>> No.32744013

>>32743858
I'm not kidding about that last one either.
Just the New Ghis, one allied faction of one side, brings 36000 soldiers to bear, the Yunkai themselves bring 30000.

>> No.32744043

>>32743959
Basically yes.

Which wouldn't be a problem if we were dealing with different time periods, but we're not.
It's especially problematic since we've also basically had confirmed that the soldiers that Essos does bring to bear are just better.

>> No.32744172

>>32743642
Give me one way in which the reach beats Braavos except for size.

>> No.32744254

>>32744043
Maybe not once all westeros heavy cavalry tramples their infatry.

Or they just die against phalanxes.

>> No.32744334

>>32743656
>The only military forces in Essos that I can think of that have a significant reputation are the Unsullied and the only reason the slavers made such great soldiers in the first place was because they had absolutely nothing else of value to trade. Meanwhile the Dothraki hordes that control large portions of Essos probably wouldn't stand a chance against the plate armor and castles of Westeros.


But even Robert recognized that the Dothraki would kick their butt, and the unsullied beat the dothraki 16 to one.

This is not counting the Legion of New Ghis (Which are trained in the style of unsullied), the Golden Company, or the other various mercenaries, or whatever local armies there are.

>Most of Essos was part of the greatest empire to ever exist and have access to a lot of wealth.

Neither Braavos nor Qarth was ever part of the Freehold.

>> No.32744355

>>32744254
Essos brings elephants you nigger.
Pretty sure they're not the ones who need to worry about being trampled.

>> No.32744397

>>32744013
>Just the New Ghis, one allied faction of one side, brings 36000 soldiers to bear, the Yunkai themselves bring 30000

So? The bulk of the military force for a whole nation (or at least a very large city state) ends up being roughly equal to a small-to-mid-size region in Westeros; I fail to see the point.

>>32744043
>It's especially problematic since we've also basically had confirmed that the soldiers that Essos does bring to bear are just better

[citation needed]

As I said, only the Unsullied have been shown or referenced to be a particularly exemplary fighting force.

>> No.32744524

>>32744397
>ends up being roughly equal to a small-to-mid-size region in Westeros

The soldiers they sent, a purely voluntary force, is equal to the Lannisters entire fighting force and outnumbers the Starks.
Who do you count as a "Large faction" dude?

>As I said, only the Unsullied have been shown or referenced to be a particularly exemplary fighting force.

Oh yeah, the Golden company totally isn't an elite fucking force.
No sir.
No tales of Dothraki skill have been spun.
Nope.
The skills of the waterdancers is never brought up.
Nay.

>> No.32744623

>>32732639
i used to hide in the holly hedges of my childhood home. i was scouting the enemy forces or something idk. maybe i was following the cat.

>> No.32744669

>>32733517

Except for dat giant.

>> No.32744678

>>32744623
And what did you say to the god of death?

>> No.32744727

>>32744678
What's up?

>> No.32744734

>>32744678
420blazeitfagit

>> No.32744764

>>32738219
They are in the books.

>>32744669
Given how effective that guy was it's a wonder they didn't just place like 50 giant archers, or however many they have, and just had them shoot the garrison to bits.

>> No.32744768

>>32744334
>But even Robert recognized that the Dothraki would kick their butt, and the unsullied beat the dothraki 16 to one

Robert was a paranoid fool who saw dragons in every shadow. His worries don't override the common sense that a horde of unarmored fighters with no industrial capacity would never stand a chance against mail and plate armored soldiers. And the reason the Unsullied were able to hand the Dothraki their asses to them in that one battle (the death toll was more like six to one, not sixteen to one) was because the khal was an overconfident idiot who tried to attack a spear formation head on with cavalry. If they had surrounded the Unsullied the Unsullied would have been slaughtered.

>Neither Braavos nor Qarth was ever part of the Freehold

Braavos was able to gain a lot of power in the confusion after the Valyrian collapse. Yes, they're still relatively very wealthy and powerful but it's not like groups in history haven't been able to acquire great wealth and power due to better decisions or just plain luck than their competitors. And Qarth is another beast altogether; they essentially have a monopoly on trade at the midpoint of the known world.

>> No.32744950

>>32744768
>The death toll was more like six to one, not sixteen to one.

We literally have official figures on this shit man.

>Braavos was able to gain a lot of power in the confusion after the Valyrian collapse. Yes, they're still relatively very wealthy and powerful

They're literally capable of backing entire other kingdoms monetarily, and just straight up pay for revolutions if they so desire.
Their iron bank is currently funding Westeros.

They're not just "Relatively very wealthy". They're so wealthy in comparison to Westeros it's not even funny.

>And Qarth is another beast altogether; they essentially have a monopoly on trade at the midpoint of the known world.

No they don't.
They have a virtual monopoly on trade BETWEEN a third of Essos and the rest of Essos. Even then they primarily deal with Asshai and Yi Ti, which are just two places.

But yes, they're ludicrously wealthy.

>> No.32745049

>>32743129
It's because they're the East. They're based on tales of India and Cathay, which were historically way better off than Europe during the medieval period even before tales were embellished.

>> No.32745061

darkstar leads the armies of westros to conquer essos when?

>> No.32745069

>>32743274
Are the Riverlands really that big? I thought Harrenhal paid direct allegiance to King's Landing.

>> No.32745138

>>32745069
House Whent, the house that used to own Harrenhall, swore fealty to house Tully.

House Baelish of Harrenhall swear fealty to the crown. (But who Baelish pays allegiance is another matter)

>> No.32745167

>>32745138
That must have been what confused me then, thanks.

>> No.32745303

>>32744524
>The soldiers they sent, a purely voluntary force

It's a fucking slave army. That's why they get their asses kicked so quickly.

>is equal to the Lannisters entire fighting force and outnumbers the Starks

Presuming that New Ghis is the main successor to the Ghiscari empire and controls most of the territory labled as Ghiscar their overall holdings are going to be similar in size to the Westerlands which can call up at upwards of 60000 fighting men. And the North is extremely sparsely populated; plus, Robb marches south with at most half the North's total forces.

>Who do you count as a "Large faction" dude?

The Reach has nearly a hundred thousand soldiers. The Vale is said to have several tens of thousands of heavy mounted alone. And Stannis is able to call up five thousand men from his shitty little island domains (although that force is supplemented to an unknown amount by mercenaries)

>No tales of Dothraki skill have been spun

Words are wind. Common sense says that the Dothraki's only real strength is their massive numbers and they're even more divided as a people than the Westerosi.

>The skills of the waterdancers is never brought up

Individual fighters - duelists, really - and not soldiers. Plus, once again, their abilities are probably largely exaggerated (by themselves most of all). The 'great' waterdancer Syrio Forrell couldn't do much against the plate armor of Meryn Fucking Trant.

>Oh yeah, the Golden company totally isn't an elite fucking force

And the Golden Company was founded by, is run by and heavily features the armor, weapons and tactics of Westerosi knights. And - what do you know - they're able to hold up in wars with the 'just better' Essos...iriyans(?) just well.

>> No.32745325

>>32744950
Braavos is just "Not Venice" and Venice was an absolute political and economic beast in its time.
So even though Braavos is pushing larger than life, they do have a life like reference to call back to.

>> No.32745356

>>32745303
>The 'great' waterdancer Syrio Forrell couldn't do much against the plate armor of Meryn Fucking Trant.

With a wooden training sword, mind you.

>> No.32745383

>>32745303
>>32745356
>implying Syrio is still dead
>impyling Trant would reveal how badly his shit got kicked by a middle age Italian

I want to believe.

>> No.32745405

>>32745356
It wouldn't have made much difference if it was Valyrian, the water dancers use blades based on rapiers and Trant was armored.

>> No.32745409

>>32745383

So do I.

>> No.32745449

>>32745405
Are you implying battle rapiers were flimsy weapons?

No anon, they were designed to kill knights.

>> No.32745487

>>32745449
uh thats not really a rapier is it? at least it wasnt made for the same faggy fighting that later spanish and italians did. thats just a modified longsword

>> No.32745492

>>32745303
>It's a fucking slave army. That's why they get their asses kicked so quickly.

No, that would be the Yunkai.
The New Ghis legions are entirely volunteers, trained in the style of the unsullied.
This is literally DIRECTLY told to you in the books, and the legion is a temporary position meaning a good chunk of the population are retired but still capable soldiers.

>The 'great' waterdancer Syrio Forrell couldn't do much against the plate armor of Meryn Fucking Trant.

No shit.
He was armed with a stick.

>plus, Robb marches south with at most half the North's total forces.

This is literally not true man.
Like.
This is just straight up not true.
I mean for he's marching south with so many people that they're running out of able bodied men for work.

>The Reach has nearly a hundred thousand soldiers.

No, they don't.

>Common sense says that the Dothraki's only real strength is their massive numbers

Well this is just completely contrary to everything we ever hear of them.

>
And the Golden Company was founded by, is run by and heavily features the armor, weapons and tactics of Westerosi knights.

True, but it also features things like "Elephants" and "Eastern style archers", and stuff like that.

>> No.32745518

>>32745449
That looks like an estoc to me.
>filename
And you should know that too.

>> No.32745531

>>32745325
The thing is, while Westeros is slightly shittier than its counter part Braavos is better.

>> No.32745589

>>32745487

You are thinking about gunpowder age Rapiers, which were no more than side arms, true Battle rapiers descending from the Estocs ( and very similar to them) and Tucks were knight killing side arms.

Go search a bit, seriously.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wDjjLnKRcI

>> No.32745602

>>32744950
>We literally have official figures on this shit man.

Yes, and the official numbers say 12000 Dothraki dead to 2400 Unsullied. So I was wrong, it's actually five to one.

>They're literally capable of backing entire other kingdoms monetarily, and just straight up pay for revolutions if they so desire.
Their iron bank is currently funding Westeros

That's what happens when one group of people has gross financial mismanagement for decades followed by a five way civil war and the other one is known for being extremely shrewd with their money. One ends up with more gold than the other.

Plus, just because they're loaning money doesn't necessarily mean they have more of it, just more to give. Westeros might bring in five million gold a year but spends six million. Braavos might only make two million but they spend only one and have that extra million to lend out (at interest).

>They're not just "Relatively very wealthy". They're so wealthy in comparison to Westeros it's not even funny
>But yes, they're ludicrously wealthy

What are the Medici Bank, The East India Company, etc.

>> No.32745626

>>32745589
well my point was that its not used the same way that the faggot water dancers fight

>>
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