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[ERROR] No.32616041 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Fantasy Craft General

Awww, here it goes!
Fantasy Craft is a Fantasy d20 Tabletop RPG, using the OGL ruleset. It is geared towards cinematic play where every character can contribute equally, while having solid mechanics and being fairly modular at that. Some have described it as "a Nephew of 3.5 that avoids family reunions"

A few points of note:
>Magic is no longer king
>Several noncombat classes, which can still contribute in combat.
>Martial characters are not gimped outside of battle
>Specialists can be the best in their field without being overshadowed by magic.
>Varied weapon groups and fighting styles mean that most any style of weapon use is viable.

Download links:
>Fantasy Craft Torrent [Includes Adventure Companion/Call to Arms/Homebrew (No Core Rulebook)] - Please seed!

And here's a few other links of note:
>Web NPC builder

>General downloads for Fantasy Craft

>New Player Character Creation Guide

>Guide to create a custom PC species

>[Unofficial] Species Feat Guide

>[Practically Official] Specialty Creation Guide


>> No.32616250

How does one build a Keeper or Courtier that's effective in combat and non-combat situations? They have obvious roles to play in some games, but I can't see them being useful in a dungeon crawl.

>> No.32617189

>Some have described it as "a Nephew of 3.5 that avoids family reunions"
Absolutely retarded. Eat shit, OP.

>> No.32617440

That statement is completely accurate. Fantasy Craft is an OGL game that wants nothing to do with the OGL. It is descended from 3.0, twice removed, sp nephew is also correct.

>> No.32617481

Courtiers can rock a beguiling build, just as an example, using Taunts and distractions to eat up enemy actions while the beefier guys go to town.

>> No.32617958

I have been reading through this system and I noticed something kinda odd.

Looking at both Ogres and Giants in the species section it shows that Ogres get bonuses to strength while Giants don't.

Shouldn't giants also get some bonus to strength since they are large creatures? Or does the ability to use larger weapons address that balance issue.

I am willing to accept it but I was just hoping that somebody could explain what they think about it.

>> No.32618011

They have shittons of size bonuses, due to Stability and being large, so it makes up for it. They still seem a bit boring to me, but I play Drakes, soooo...

>> No.32618054

Large doesn't grant any bonuses to Strength in Fantasy Craft, IIRC. It doesn't grant a lot of things when you compare it to 3.5
Kind of a paradigm shift when you switch from 3.PF to FC, but it also allows you to play a Large character without LA and makes it so Large isn't automatically better.
All that I know about Large is that it allows you to be the dominant party in a grapple more often and you calculate Wounds differently.
Plus equipment changes, but that's inferred.

>> No.32618072


A lot of things in FC don't really make sense, tbh.

>> No.32618169

Being Large gives you
>Bonuses to grappling, bull rushes, etc
>Access to large weapons, which do more damage
>More Wounds
>Stronger Natural Attacks, if applicable
>More carrying capacity

Strength is relative - Goblins get +2 Strength as well, but an Ogre will probably still do more damage than a Goblin in most cases. The point is that they're strong FOR THEIR SIZE. Since Giants are basically built exactly like humans, but sized up, they're pretty much humans, but sized up. With Improved Stability they're actually pretty much the HUGEST when it comes to grapples/tramples/other size stuff.

>> No.32618526

Not to mention that Giants get more reach. If AoOs were a thing in FC then a Giant Martial Artist could be a real combat monster.
Though with their Natural Attacks a Giant Martial Artist can still be a monster.

>> No.32618637


I have a feeling that's why FC got rid of attacks of opportunity, so they could supplicate the type of player that's not happy unless they can play a large character.

>> No.32618668

Size is still pretty fantastic.

There's a reason part of the second printing 'fixes' was closing the loopholes that let you get to Gargantuan and bigger.

>> No.32619406

What's a good way to generate loot on the fly? I'd love to run a sort of Borderlands/Diablo esque gain where there's loot, loot, and more loot.

>> No.32619452

Even mundane loot can be pretty rad. Even something like an orcish warhammer with some gribbly bits attached isn't bad.

Magic items that grant weird NPC qualities are also cool trinkets to throw at a player.

Also, you'll want to run the Monty Haul campaign quality, so that they can hold onto more silly shit.

>> No.32619531


A'ight, but what's a good way to generate it on the fly? I tend to be kinda shit at balancing what I hand out, or thinking of good things to hand out.

>> No.32619557

Well, Renown cost is a decent balancing tool. Not perfect, but decent.

As to quickly generating it... you know, that's something nobody's worked up yet.

>> No.32620179

I'm running a Fantasy Craft game tomorrow, new level 3 characters. How unbalanced would it be to allow them to spend their 30 Reputation on a magic item?

>> No.32620754

As long as you keep an eye on them and what they're making it should be fine. That said, 30 Reputation is a lot for an item; that gives them a full feat, plus practically any other charm or essence they want.

>> No.32620796

Yeah, I noticed. It would unbalance things too much I think, as normally it would take 120 Rep total to get a 30 Rep magic item.

Due to the Plentiful Magic Items campaign quality I've got running, I'm making it so they can purchase items at one Renown above their current, but that's it. So no 30 Rep magic items at character creation.

>> No.32620822

>120 to get 30
Wait... where's that rule from?

>> No.32620902

On page 194, paragraph 2 of Fantasy Craft Rulebook (2nd printing) at the bottom.
"you may only 'buy' magic items with a Reputation cost up to your Renown x 10."

If we do the math, each level of Renown usually costs 30 Reputation. You have to get to 3 Renown in order to purchase a 30 Reputation magic item.
30x3 (3 Renown) + 30 (Magic Item) = 120

>> No.32620908

Maybe, but the size rules are rock solid. I never really understood why people have a hangup over size not equalling strength when they complement each other in most situations but I guess that's because I never played much 3e.

>> No.32621194

There are tables for pretty much every kind of loot, actually.

Of course, that's obviously going to run into potential issues of handing out oddball stuff that makes no sense and is of no use to the party, but you can absolutely just roll pretty much every last damn thing you give out.

>> No.32623837


"There's just no pleasing some people."

"That's exactly what Jesus said, sir!"

>> No.32624527

>> No.32624556


>> No.32624581


>> No.32624611

No one minds if I post my caveman images, do they?

>> No.32624630


>> No.32624643

they can use intimidate to cause stress damage. this can one-hit standards if they fail their damage save. if you do the infernal feats, you get wings and a 60ft fly speed on your third total feat.

this means that you can clean the battle field while another attacker specializes as a special killer using many various combos (max-ing the mace tree is my favorite).

>> No.32624657


>> No.32624673


>> No.32624695

>you will never prepare gravegoods for you kids journey into the afterlife

>> No.32624720


>> No.32624739


>> No.32624761

>can't make out their faces
>can make out her nipples

>> No.32624782


>> No.32624797


>> No.32624807 [DELETED] 

Why are dedicated Fantasycraft fans even worse than 3aboos or 4rries?

Like, I get it, you have your favorite system. I'm not even trying to start a goddamn fantasy setting game, stop screaming at me that Fantasycraft is the only game worth playing.

>> No.32624812


>> No.32624830

Almost done.

>> No.32624846


>> No.32624863


You're imagining things. The OP post explains the strong points of the system, and why not?

Nobody's screaming anything, much less "this is the only game worth playing", except possibly the voices in your head.

>> No.32624899


>> No.32624901


You know... you came into a general thread to argue with fans of said topic about how they're great fans of something? It is a bit non-sensical for me.

And the fandom exist because many wanted a game with the "DnD feel" but without the poor design choice of the systems, and the FC brings exact that to table. It obviously have problems and strange rules (like the Rep system), but it works out very well.

>> No.32624909

Spare a shekel for a poor ex-leper?

>> No.32624915


>> No.32624932


>> No.32625021

>Download links
Okay, how the fuck do you download shit on this fucking site?

I signed up, got a profile, verified my email, but every time I hit download on anything all it asks me to do is upgrade.

I don't want to fucking upgrade, I want the fucking files.

>> No.32625107

You don't need to sign up at all.

On the mediafire, click the name of the file, which will open a second window with a Download button. Click it.

There is probably some pop up ads and other shit, which any fucking adblocker will take care of.

>> No.32625129

I select the folder, hit download, asks me to upgrade to Pro, doesn't download.

>> No.32625152

They aren't.

You're trolling.

>> No.32625210


You can only download single files without a pro account. Ignore the checkboxes, just click the name of a PDF and select download.

>> No.32625246

Well, the neat thing is, you can be effective in combat pretty straightforwards. If you want to be very effective on the cheap, use your two weapon proficiencies to get a Forte in Edged, Use some of your "Gifts and Favors" ability's gold to get free supplies. A Superior Elven Stiletto costs 40s, you can get it Bleed for 20 more silver.

If you take your first level in Assassin, you get its Core Ability, meaning you have full BaB and AP 2 against all Special enemies. At level 1, you get a free feat. Take Knife Basics.

Now, you can enter your stance and stand still and supplicant saying "Oh, please, please, I'm just a diplomat!" As the general bears down on you. You have a readied action prepared, and once he gets to you and raises his weapon with a smirk, you whip out your stiletto and (assuming 12 STR, since you want to be decent at combat, but not focused on it) hit him in the chin for 1d4+2+2d6 damage, AP 8 (10 if you were an Assassin at level 1), and Bleed. That means an average of 11 damage, causing him to take a Fort save of 11 or start bleeding, and most likely ignoring ANY armor he has on him.

That's just one way of doing it. You get two proficiencies, so that's enough to get a Forte, and thus take any of the weapon feats. You could be a Courtier with 14 STR (Assuming you do the 16, 14, 12, 12, 12, 10 stat array, which is my favorite) and wield a big hammer with Hammer basics.

In fact, how about this:
Human Svelte Gladiator Courtier 1:
Theodore Roosevelt
STR: 14
CON: 10 (12 -2)
DEX: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 18(16+2)
Proficiencies: 2 from class, 1 from Gladiator (Blunt Forte, Deceptive Grab)
Weapon: War Club (1d8, 19-20, Bleed, 1-Handed)
Feats: Combat Instincts (Gladiator Bonus), Club Basics
Origin Skills: Athletics, Acrobatics

I'll do a breakdown in the next post.

>> No.32625265

So someone expects me to download 51 files individually instead of just putting them into a single .zip and offering that for download for sake of simple damn convenience?

How utterly retarded. Fuck that.

>> No.32625299

It's just the /fcg/ opener, it's like a clarion call for the FCers.

>> No.32625308


You don't really NEED all 51 files. And anyway, there's a torrent link right next to the mediafire one, why not use that if mediafire is too much of a hassle?

>> No.32625362

You have a predator’s build and natural magnetism.
• Attributes: +2 Charisma, –2 Wisdom
• Base Speed:30 ft.
• Charming:Once per session, you may improve the Disposition of any 1 non-adversary NPC by 5.
• Enlightened Athletics: Your maximum Athletics rank increases to your Career Level + 5. Only the highest bonus from any single enlightened ability may apply to each skill.
• Rock Solid:You gain 1 additional wound per level.
• Shove:You gain the Shove trick (see page 222).

So, Charming is super useful for a Courtier, it goes without saying. +5 to a disposition is the same as beating their check on an Impress by 10.

Enlightened Athletics will make you able to be much better at grappling, bull rushing, etc, while also helping you climb and swim better.
Actually, I noticed just now that I did the statline wrong, it should be 12 CON, 10 WIS, since the -2 was to WIS and not to CON like I thought.

Rock Solid is amazing, since Wounds typically never increase, so now you're getting way more durable than most people are.

The Shove trick lets you move an opponent 5 feet away from you on a successful unarmed or melee attack. Very useful, especially since you don't want to be soaking up too much damage.

You were raised in the brutal world of death sports, carving
out a reputation in blood and steel.
• Bonus Feat:Combat Instincts
• Crunch!: Your Strength-based damage rolls inflict 1 additional damage.
• Extra Proficiency:You gain 1 additional proficiency or trick.
• Harsh Beating: The Fortitude save DCs of subdual damage you inflict increase by 4.
• Paired Skills: Each time you gain 1 or more ranks in the Athletics skill, you gain equal ranks in the Impress skill. This may not increase your Impress skill beyond its maximum rank

Combat Instincts lets you make a free attack that does half damage (rounded up) on an opponent that attacks you and misses, once per round.
Crunch is good for a bit of a damage boost

>> No.32625365

All you really need is Adventure Companion and the Core Rulebook. Even Adventure Companion is optional.

Speaking as someone who has downloaded numerous things on mediafire, it's not as bad as you might think.
Do four or five downloads at a time, if you have decent internet then most documents should be done fairly quickly.
And it's not like you have to sit there while they download. You're here, might as well browse while you wait for your downloads to finish.

>> No.32625376

>torrent link
>0 Seeders
>0 Leechers
>1 Peer

>Time Elapsed: 45m
>0% Done

You must be the utter retard behind the mediafire retardation, too.

>> No.32625402


I'm not responsible for any of this shit, you hostile asswipe. I'm just a guy who wandered through the thread and tried to help you out. I'm sorry if you're having a bad day, but don't piss all over me for it.

>> No.32625451

Seeding just for you, ya whiner.

>> No.32625458

>do all tha thengs dat dunt work
>i help geezsh

>File Download Blocked
>The file you attempted to download has been previously claimed by a copyright holder through a valid DMCA request and cannot be downloaded.
Well fuck this game then.

>> No.32625488

Don't bother, these fuckfaces in here and OP's shit have put me off the game.

>> No.32625499

Alright, then I guess I'm seeding for everyone except you.

>> No.32625544

>>do all tha thengs dat dunt work
>>i help geezsh

Jesus, what is your problem? This isn't a damned conspiracy to fuck you over, dude.
Stuff gets taken down, and people don't always seed all the time. Stop taking everything like a personal insult, you drama queen.

>> No.32625585

ITT: Hurt feels.

So, I'm thinking of getting my Mage (going for gish) a Great Club with Greater Accuracy Bonus and NPC Quality: Unnerving. I think this will make up for the Mage's low BAB and allow me to do both subdual and stress damage on the same blow.

Reason for Great Club and not something else: Ogre Mage, going for the whole Oni with a Tetsubo thing.

>> No.32625675

The Extra proficiency is useful since we get so few. I used it to pick up the Deceptive Grab trick. That lets us use Charisma instead of STR for our Grapple checks.

Harsh Beating is very useful. Using Club Basics, you could be dealing lethal or subdual damage with any Club at your choice. In addition, you get a stance that lets you push an enemy 5 feet away with every hit. Not sure if you can use Shove with this, but if you can, that'd be moving an enemy 10 feet with every hit.

If we deal subdual damage, we will be doing roughly 1d8+3 damage, which is an average of 7 or 8. That means, on an average damage hit, the enemy must make a Fort Save (DC 17) or become Fatigued. If they succeed, on the second hit, assuming again average damage, they must save against DC 20 or be Fatigued.

This will obviously stack up fast.
Lethal works as well, but this works nicely with your Origin.

And lastly: Paired Skills. Holy damn, this is going to save you so much. You get 24 skill points at level 1, so let's use a whopping 6 of them on Athletics. You now have a +8 to Athletics, or, if you use Deceptive Grab (And there is never any reason not to, since it is your only grapple trick), you have an Athletics check at level 1 of +10. Your Impress check now has 4 free ranks as well, and will continue to remain maxed provided you keep Athletics maxed. You are supreme at wrestling (Probably better than most Soldier builds not focused on wrestling), and get free ranks in Impress out of it as well.

So, that's how you Speak Quietly and Carry a Big Stick

>> No.32625694


Relax, mang.

>> No.32625736

Why does fucking everyone who plays an ogre want to play a Fire Brave/Elder with a Tetsubo? My party's ogre is the same way.

As a side question, how would one go about making pic related? Either as a foe or as a PC race?

>> No.32625766

>Why does fucking everyone who plays an ogre want to play a Fire Brave/Elder with a Tetsubo?
>My party's ogre is the same way.

Because oni are fucking rad.

Also, that's probably a Spider Noble who also has Devilish Heritage. Which means a Sorcerer most likely... though there may also be other ways to get Devilish Heritage. Can't Paladin give you a Species feat?

>> No.32625813

Yes it can. Hmmm... I think I have my next character.

Alternatively, would an entire race of "whatever-taurs" work as a baseline race? That way you could do centaurs, Lamia (the D&D version, not the snakefolk version), Spiderkin, et cetera...

>> No.32625906

This is just for me, mind you:
1. Oni are fucking rad
2. Refer to 1.
3. Testubo/Kanabo are the traditional weapon for Oni. It's like Conan and not wearing proper clothing, it just feels right.
4. Oni are fucking rad.

>> No.32625997

Might work alright. I could see the base species as something like:

>Large (2x1) quadruped with reach 1 [1 pt]
>Speed 40 ft [1 pt]
>+2 any ability score [3 pts]
>Light Sleeper [0.5 pts]
>Improved Stability [1 pt]
>Trample I [1 pt]
>Wield weapons as if one size smaller [-0.5 pts]

Seems to cover all the major bases for a standard centaur, and pretty flexible to change up for any of a variety of bottom halves.

Not sure if I'd do spider-people with it, though, since that has a bit of niche encroachment with Spider Noble.

>> No.32627803

So, what exactly is a Keeper supposed to do? I get that it's skills, but its main use, crafting seems to be downtime only. What do they do the rest of the time?

>> No.32627955

Use the rest of their skills to help the party and of course sharing the skill mastery feat

Being able to know a fuckton about stuff the party might encounter,

>> No.32630063

What's a good way to build encounters and dungeons with creatures that are large or have natural flight?

>> No.32630079

Because it's a build that works.

>> No.32630289

Other flyers, instead of having a dungeon underground have your players attack a dungeon built by giants in the clouds.

>> No.32630450

So, here's an interesting question for you, FCG

How do you get players to use maneuvers and combat actions more, when stabbing something to death, or abusing specific attacks to drop a truckload of damage on their enemies as fast as possible?

I fear my players are settling back into D&D mode where "kill everything and loot the bodies later" is the default strategy, and where players build characters to output piles of damage, instead of having any sort of back up skills or abilities.

>> No.32630498


No idea. I imagine you'd first have to show that those other abilities are actually worth using somehow, be it through npcs using them well or something.

>> No.32630535

The only way to get them to care about other strategies is to subtly make it clear that taking a different approach gives potentially better rewards.

>> No.32631138

I guess it really depends on the kind of campaign being played. A more urban campaign where murder will get the cops on your ass would likely lead to more creative solutions to dealing with conflict.

>> No.32631269

I made some centaurs a while ago, I'll post my take in a bit. I also did a decent haepy with some help for the people here.

>> No.32631896


>how do I make a combat effective Keeper or Courtier?
>well if you build an Assassin....

fucking lol

>> No.32631939


It's an NPC class, don't take it too seriously.

>> No.32631943

>Some have described it as "a Nephew of 3.5 that avoids family reunions"

just came in to say I didn't tought this would make it

>> No.32632146

> Grabbing a combat feat
> Building an assassin
Not that guy, but were you dropped on your head a few times? He only recommends taking 1 level in Assassin for it's BAB, but it's *optional*. And then he goes on with a build that's just a level one Courtier...
A combat effective Keeper/Courtier may need a combat feat, aka, what he recommended.

>> No.32632355

Large: Avoid kobold/goblin warrens and other really small tunneled places. Go instead for vast dwarven halls, tombs of giants, etc. Not every abandoned temple or fortress has to have 5-foot-wide hallways.

Flying: Make use of it, rather than fight against it. Now you can have wide layers with broken stairs, you can have towers they have to scale from the outside, while avoiding undead archers. They can have chasms they can actually explore instead of just being a set piece.

Make use of both benefits rather than looking at them as handicaps.

>> No.32632384

It's pretty simple, have the other enemies use the maneuvers against them. Have a flying monster Harpy taunt their main melee guy, so he has to attack her next round. If he says "Shit, I don't have any ranged attacks, because I'm a dingus", you can point out that Taunt, Tire, Threaten, Feint, etc, are all Attack actions.

Have enemies Tire them into Fatigue, Feint them and get massive sneak attacks, Trip them and Disarm them and watch their actions being eaten up. Have a Giant Grapple one of them, then use him as a Screaming Club.

They'll figure out fast that damage isn't the only way to go about things.

>> No.32632411

The Assassin's Core Ability (You only get the Core Ability of the first class you take, then the first Expert Class you take) gives you 1:1 BaB against all special characters, and 2 AP against special characters, for the rest of the game. Not "You have BaB equal to your levels in Assassin", instead "You have BaB equal to your levels period"

So, a single level dip would be really useful for a combat-minded Courtier, and the Courtier's Core Ability boosts Appearance, which is nice, but not strictly necessary.

>> No.32632473

Agree with this guy. Have a load of standard NPCs use tire all the time and make it super difficult for all of them to hit anything. This worked with my group, they started to realize that hitting things with a big stick wasn't that important.

>> No.32632600


There's nothing strictly wrong with simply attacking, but most likely it's from the action economy of 3.PF.

Feints, Tripping, Disarming, etc, takes a standard action, of which you only get one. This means you must make a hard choice between either attacking OR using a maneuver.

The fact that you have two Half Actions in Fantasycraft means you can easily Feint AND Attack, so instead of it being "Deal damage at all, or do a maneuver" It becomes a matter of "How much damage do you want to focus on, when you could replace a portion of it with disabling your opponent in some manner, or assisting an ally."

Plus, all the extra attacks and actions you get make it a lot more useful to actually use this stuff.

>> No.32632630

Imma tell you what I love with the action economy of fc

being able to trip an enemy then smash his face in the same round

>> No.32633527

Hey wasn't there an unofficial Fantasy Craft Class creation guide? May I have a link to it, I can't find it anywhere?

>> No.32634176

It depends entirely on your Origin and Feat/Trick selection. You have to decide on the other half (ish) of your functionality before you can decide what you're "supposed" to do.

>> No.32634264

Skills are used a LOT in combat. And out of combat for solving problems in dungeons. Also if you don't have a Mage, or if you start taking wound damage, having a Keeper gives you Medicine and that shit is useful.

And then yeah, crafting. Which is useful because for most FC adventures, the holy grail isn't Excalibur - it's a proper set of fitted articulated plate with a couple extra toys.

>> No.32634314

All that tells me is that monsters are designed to be hit twice a round as a measuring stick which just means maneuvers are still a waste of time. That is if they put any thought into designing things.

>> No.32634431

Are you retarded?

>> No.32634439

Here ya go: http://sletchweb.wikidot.com/fc-origin-creation

Be sure to share what you'remaking with us!

>> No.32634440

For most Standard monsters, they're designed to be hit ONCE -period-. Hell, even some Special monsters tend to only really survive contact from a PC once.

For the things that can actually take more than one hit? You're better off locking them the fuck down so they can't hit you back. Thus, maneuvers.

>> No.32634718


To be honest, I really hate the standard vs. special character distinction in FC. I don't think bringing that up makes a strong case for the system.

>> No.32634720


Actually, I don't like Vancian magic, and in turn, FC's set spells. So I'm trying to create a class that can handle the Runic magic system I'm making.

>> No.32634746

But FC doesn't use Vancian magic...

>> No.32634818

Hate it or not, it's a strong benefit to combat. Standards are better than mooks because they CAN survive more than one hit (just not often, unless you've made it so they can specifically).

Don't like them? Don't use them. You still deal with the fact that Vitality will be ignored 3/4ths of the time (Crits, Critical Injuries, Fatigue/Shaken, etc). Seriously, combat in FC is more about ONE GOOD HIT than a ton of mediocre ones.

>> No.32634921


>Don't like them? Don't use them.

Oh, you're one of those "Let's pretend this system is much more modular than it actually is" types. Nevermind the fact that doing so invalidates feats and character options.

>> No.32635016

No actual FEAT is invalidated. The tricks accompanying them? Sure, some.

Technically speaking, a GM can make every standard character into a special character as a function of Action Dice. It's already built in to the system.

Not that I actually think it's modular. I think it functions best when using all of the rules, but I'm not convinced it falls apart when you don't.

>> No.32635074

It does too! Unless, I understand Vancian magic wrong. It may not have the 3.P "magic recharge time" thing, which is replaced by SP which I really like, but FC spells usually only have one purpose and cannot be toned down or modified to affect different things, which is what I meant by vancian. I have a feeling I'm using it terribly wrong.

>> No.32635123

You are using vancian horribly wrong.

>> No.32635163

>I have a feeling I'm using it terribly wrong.

Partially. You're missing the part where spells have to be prepared ahead of time. FC doesn't have that. People also tend to argue that Mana/Spell points aren't Vancian, but in that aspect I actually think that's just being purposefully contrary (In that it's simply another way to measure limited spells).

>> No.32636106

Give them a couple ranks of cagey and/or tough, give them a couple extra grades of health, use your action dice. Cagey does count as a save, and nothing says you can't use it to pass damage saves, meaning you can use it to keep an NPC around for just a short while longer, giving them a chance to be a threat to the players.

It's all about fighting smart, instead of fighting hard.

You can easily build enemies to just barf out damage, but if you build enemies who can get away and harass from a distance or enemies who actually move back to recover after taking a hit, it can drag the fight out, and as other anons pointed out, when players are left without the option to just hit something, you can start relying on maneuvers to taunt an enemy back in, or something else to try and force another damage save.

And, just as an aside, but one of the things that's going to make a HUGE difference is how many players you have and how many NPCs you are pitting them against.

5 PCs can destroy most standard NPCs by forcing damage saves on a couple targets, but things change drastically when PCs get outnumbered by a lot of nuisance enemies.

>> No.32636232

>Cagey does count as a save, and nothing says you can't use it to pass damage saves

I, respectfully, disagree. Tough 5xp/grade, Cagey is 1. Amping up the difficulty and shorting your players in Experience at the same time? That's dirty.

>> No.32636273

Technically, "vancian magic" has three characteristics:

As you say, the spells are the spells, they can't be toned down or changed (Fireball always makes a fireball 20' in diameter, and is a "Third Level Spell")

Spells are prepared before battle, and then unleashed. Once used, they must be reprepared. "Well, That's all my fire until tomorrow."

The spellcaster can only prepare a certain amount of spells, dependant on their skill. "Throw a fireball" "I can't, I only prepped 2!"

Those are the qualities of Vancian magic.

The main argument against Spell points being Vancian is that you can (typically) spend your spell points as you please: With 100 points, you could cast 100 1 point spells, 50, 2 point, etc, etc.
Which gives you more modularity than standard vancian practices.

>> No.32636966

Tough says they can FAIL another save, meaning their damage counter resets to zero and their save resets.

Cagey says "for this one instance of receiving damage, you auto-pass the damage save" meaning that when they get hit again, even if its just a PC throwing a rock and doing 1 damage, they have to make the save again.

Tough makes sure the NPC will survive several more hits before going down, increasing their lifespan by allowing the damage counter to reset.

Cagey prolongs an NPC's lifespan by at least one more attack, meaning at best, they are a slight drain on the player's action economy.

>> No.32637116

You notice how neither of those actually say that? The Intent of Cagey is to be used with actual saves (Fort/Ref/Will). Reading it any other way is just wrong.

>> No.32638713

It says "save" for Cagey and the rules for Standard NPCs call it a "save" when they talk about receiving damage.

It seems pretty clear to me.

>> No.32639255

People keep telling me to move away from pathfinder to Fantasy craft or Dungeon world. What are the differences between the three.

>> No.32639305

How rules-heavy is this compared to say 3.5/PF?

>> No.32639527

I would also like to know this

>> No.32639630

Fantasy Craft is REALLY rules heavy, more so than PF/3.5. While there are rules for mostly everything, all of the rules make sense and are short, sweet, and easy to understand, albeit the layout of the book is confusing and can make reading it a bit discouraging, but with some practice it's really easy to grasp all the rules.

Dungeon World is rules lite, I haven't really played it so I can't comment, but if yo really want to stray away from 3.P and heavy systems, play DW.

>> No.32639646

I know pathfinder and dungeon world, so I'll give you the differences between those two.

Pathfinder is a lot more mechanical and dice-based, while Dungeon World is a lot more narrative based. If you're looking more for a hack-and-slashy sort of fantasy adventure with lots of dungeons and shit, and you want to have combat at least once every session, Pathfinder is a better bet.

Now, if you're looking for something more narrative and more of a story-telling sort of thing with a lot of character interaction, you're going to like Dungeon World. It's a lot easier to pick up too. However, you'll need the entire group to have a lot more creative input.

Personally, I'd recommend watching actual plays of either.

>> No.32639685

I am going to work off the assumption that you guys are at least a little more than familiar with PF.

Fantasycraft is more of a game-building toolkit than a grab and play game. To me, it feels kind of a half-way step between D&D3 and GURPS Dungeon Fantasy.

If you're familiar with D&D2.5 (Skills and Powers), Fantasy craft feels a lot like that, but not broken.

Dungeon World is one of those old dungeon crawling board games but desperate to be seen as an RPG.

>> No.32639901

Thank you guys for such an fast answer!

I will read the books some more and make up my mind. Take care!

>> No.32639905

Pathfinder: 3.5 reincarnate. It has some nice house rules, fresh, new-feeling artwork, an active, massive community, and all of its designers are pants on head retarded. The issues of unequal character classes, wonky design philosophy, and splat-based power creep are all present here. Not the worst game in the world, but it's not really that good at what it's meant to do.

Dungeon World: A more niche RPG with limited additional content and a decent loyal following. Self-contained and entirely playable from the single core book. Very simple rules with a slightly different approach to gameplay that relies on specific kinds of codified actions, moreso that skill rolls, feats, and the like. Very easy to run, very much set up to be an in-the-moment sort of game where the only things that matter are what is happening at the moment. May take a session or two to fully grasp, but overall, an interesting take on dangerous, action-oriented dungeon crawling type games.

Fantasy Craft: Small following, only a couple extra books, incredibly self contained, with the Players' handbook, Bestiary, and DMs Guide all contained within the massive, hardcore book. The designers set out to strip the D&D 3.5 OGL down to its barest elements and then rebuild it from the ground up.
Lots of familiar mechanics and rules, but with lots of fine tuned extras. Can be overwhelming to learn at first, but if you take it all in as a whole, it fits together nicely. There's very few mechanics in there that aren't carefully woven together with the rest of the game, giving a very coherent and logical flow of gameplay once you've got the hang of it.
If you already know 3.5 or Pathfinder, you can jump into it without much issue.

>> No.32639917

I <3 you too anon!

>> No.32639943

Now, I haven't played Fantasy Craft precisely, but I've played Spycraft, which seems to run similarly. And I've recently been gorging on Dungeon World, so here goes:

On the scale of rules heavy, it goes:
Fantasy Craft > PF > DW

Strengths of Fantasy Craft:
-Feats. Feats in Fantasy craft are actually useful, typically holding something like 2-4 benefits, though most are conditional.
An example is Axe Basics. When you take this feat, you can now throw any axe, and can enter a stance where if an enemy hasn't moved since your last turn, they don't add Dex to AC.
-Class Abilities/Gamebreakers. FC actively works with the idea that your character gets amazingly powerful, leading to them having an ability at level 14 that's a "game breaker."
Examples include: Priest, once per adventure, free Wish. Lancer, once per adventure, you and allies take half damage and don't go unconscious under 0 heatlth for the next minute. etc.

FC is far more fiddly than PF, but it can actually achieve some solid results and options.

Dungeon World, on the other hand, is far more open.
Instead of the base system being a d20, it's 2d6. That's the basic roll for actions. On a 6>, you miss or fail. On a 7-9, you succeed minorly or at a cost. On a 10+, it's a great success.
Your damage is decided by your class, weapons merely change aspects of your attacks. (For example, a greatsword will tear off arms, and cleave people in half, while a dagger may help you ignore some of their armor)

-Class. The classes have "playbooks", which are essentially their character sheets, that include all the options they can ever take. They also include things that match the class aesthetic as options.

Let me give you the best understanding that I can, with a simple exchange: Robin Hood versus the Sheriff of Nottingham.

>> No.32640026


>> No.32640045

>An example is Axe Basics. When you take this feat, you can now throw any axe, and can enter a stance where if an enemy hasn't moved since your last turn, they don't add Dex to AC.

As an additional note, a lot of the benefits for feats aren't strictly binding. For instance, with the stance for Axe Basics, that effect will occur no matter what weapon you have. The same goes for Spear Basics' Monkey Grip (wield a 2-handed weapon in one hand); ANY two-handed weapon can be used in one hand, not just spears.

>> No.32640060

No problem mate. We'll be here to help you if you get too intimidated by the rules.

>> No.32640188

Honestly if you're just looking for a version of Pathfinder that works, you should probably play 4e. Fantasy Craft's strength is in being a toolkit for telling stories with a broader scope than the traditional D&D campaign - hence its support for things like PCs that are actual huge monsters or noncombatant social/crafter/explorer heroes. You pay for this breadth of focus by having to learn a sprawling set of rules, but if you're the right person for this game then you see mechanical intricacy as part of the fun.

Dungeon World is a completely different game again from any of the above, even if it's built for superficially similar settings. It's much, MUCH lighter, with much fewer rules (although the rules manage to cover more situations) and is firmly designed for story-first play instead of tactical challenges. It's probably a good gateway drug to the world of storygames for the die-hard D&D player, but I'd never recommend it as a game that provides the same experience as 3.P.

>> No.32640454

One very important thing you should know about Fantasy Craft, especially if you are coming from Pathfinder/3.5e, is that Fantasy Craft absolutely requires some communication between the players and the GM.

There are things like creating a Personal Lieutenant/Animal Follower that are, by design, incredibly open-ended and break easier than glass if one tries to game the system. They work fine if applied reasonably, but being "reasonable" isn't something we can take for granted in this hobby.

>> No.32640612

Now, god only knows how you choose to stat out Robin Hood, but I'm going to go with the equivalent of 'level 10' in each of them.
So, in PF, he'll be a human ranger 10.
Fantasy Craft, an Agile Lord Assassin 10
Dungeon World, a Dashing Hero, Level 5.

Jesus, just working out half these stats is going to take forever. Okay, let me try and summarize, rather than running a whole battle.

The Assassin has Fencing Basics, Followers, Ambush Basics, Bow Basics, and Bow Mastery.

What that means is that he can call up several followers during an advetnure (the Merry Men), He can shoot farther than most men, if he wants, he can replace his ranged Attack bonus with his Search Skill Check, his arrows ignore some armor, he has sneak attack damage, etc.
Further, his abilities as an assassin means that, given an hour or two of prep, he can gain melee combat feats, and he's even deadlier against special characters.
This Robin Hood will probably try and take out the Sheriff from Range, since he'll ignore 4 armor, counts as having a BAB of 10, can sub his normal bonus for a skill, has sneak attack, and is insanely adept at disguise and blending.

PF Robin is similarly a deadly archer, but is more 'feral'. He has wild empathy, woodland stride, and magic. This Robin would attack in Sherwood Forest. he could boost his teammates, and, if his feats were right, he could take shots at the sheriff that ignores his armor. This robin would be a little less skilled at close combat than the former, and would have fewer tricks and options, but would probably work better against non-humanoids than the first.

DW Robin... Well, why don't you just look at your options?

>> No.32642938


I would definitely say that Fantasycraft is more akin to Pathfinder than 4e is. Remember, Pathfinder is a derivative of 3.5, and what 3.5 sold itself as was exactly what Fantasycraft accomplishes, being more than just combat.

In practice, Pahtfinder and 3.5 make anything but dungeon crawling ill-supported, and only effective if you're clever and have a GM who is willing to help you. However, a lot of people WANT to be more than just dungeon crawling, which is part of why they chose Pathfinder over 4e -which, while I have not played it, I have had both supporters and detractors agree that it is primarily combat-based and has almost no coverage of non-combat situations.

If you want to play 3.5 or Pathfinder and say "Huh, I wish this worked well and didn't have trap options" you should play Fantasycraft.

If you look at 3.5 or Pathfinder and optionally say the above, but also say "I wish this were more streamlined and didn't have so many rules and tables" you should play Dungeon World.

If you just want a fun dungeon romp, you should play either of the above, or 4e.

There's also 13th age, which I don't know much about, but I gather it's basically sort of to 4e what Fantasycraft is to 3.5.

>> No.32643183

>I have had both supporters and detractors agree that it is primarily combat-based and has almost no coverage of non-combat situations.

Well, yes, but this is true of every version of D&D, including Pathfinder.

>> No.32643279

13th Age is what happens when 4th Edition went over to 3.5's house and said "I think the foundation is busted. You can stay at my place if you want."

>> No.32644157

So, which weapon group (feats and/or weapon) do you guys think is the strongest?

>> No.32644231

Everything except polearms and crossbows, honestly. Every other weapon type has some significant and unique advantages but these two.

>> No.32644627

One foot of steel, eight feet of death!
Prerequisites: Edged forte
Benefit:When you wield a polearm it gains hook. Also, you gain a stance.
Spinning Shield (Stance):You gain DR against bow and hurled weapon damage equal to the number of Melee Combat feats you have.

When you put them down, they don’t get back up.
Prerequisites:Polearm Basics
Benefit:Once per round you may immediately make a free polearm attack against an opponent who moves into a square adjacent to you. You inflict only 1/2 damage with this attack (rounded up). Also, you gain a trick.
Topple and Gut (Polearm Trip Trick):You also inflict your polearm’s damage.

Experience has its perks, among them not getting tooled.
Prerequisites:Polearm Mastery
Benefit: Your Wisdom score rises by 1. Also, you gain a trick.
Skull Crack (Polearm Attack Trick): If the target is a standard character with a lower Wisdom score than yours, he immediately fails his Damage save (damage isn’t rolled). You may use this trick once per round.

Polearms are pretty boss. You get very significant DR against ranged attacks on the cheap (If you have these three feats and one more, you can ignore ALL the AP against a longbow with standard arrows, and significantly negate all other sources of ranged damage)

You get a free attack on anybody who closes against you, which synergizes with you keeping people at range. Hook gives you a +2 bonus to Tripping with your weapon, and the long range makes it easy to trip a lot of people.

The Topple and Gut trick means you now never have to attack if you don't want to, you can attempt a Trick instead. If you're not a 1:1 BaB class, that means substituting your Acrobatics check for attack check, which will likely be higher, AND you trip them for free.

You get a wisdom bump, which is not super /interesting/ but is very nice, and a insta-kill trick as well.

Polearm is pretty boss.

Crossbows are sort of shit, though.

>> No.32644832

>Dungeon World is one of those old dungeon crawling board games

I don't know what system you're talking about, but it's not Dungeon World.

>that include all the options they can ever take.

* Unless you take a compendium class, which slots in new stuff on top of your regular class. Like "herbalist" or "vampire."

>> No.32644962

Which is exactly what the anon you're replying to is saying -- 3.5 and PF have an image of being about more than just combat, but this image is woefully inaccurate and misleads many people. Fantasy Craft actually delivers on the noncombat support (or at least substantially moreso than D&D, anyway).

>> No.32645084

>Hook gives you a +2 bonus to Tripping with your weapon, and the long range makes it easy to trip a lot of people.
Hook is actually +2 to Disarm, not Trip. Which is still nice, just not quite *as* nice.

Also, reach is actually meaningless for tripping because the Trip action specifies the target must be adjacent. (You bet your ass I'd be implementing some kind of houserule to allow non-adjacent trips, though -- either just changing the action itself or at the very least adding a trick to do it.)

>> No.32645311

How would you make a sort of summoner/binder/etc character in this system? Someone who has a spirit bound to them or some sort of pternatural big buddy to fight alongside or for them?

>> No.32645381

Personal Leiutenant or Animal Companion

>> No.32645662

If a weapon has trip, it can trip at whatever range the weapon has. Only one of the polearms has both reach and trip, but the trip quality is relatively cheap to add. However, the Hook quality on them is very good, since disarm gets a +2 bonus per size difference of the weapon, and polearms are some of the largest weapons.

Several ways. You can be a Mage who has Call From Beyond (The basic summon spell), and there are two feats, Personal Lieutenant and Animal Companion, that let you have a permanent NPC companion (Animal Companion is only animal, while Personal Liuetenant is anything not an animal).

There is also going to be a calling-focused class when Spellbound comes out, whenever that will be.

Besides those options, you can get the Followers and More Followers feat, having the followers be a throng of mooks (The only caveat is that followers are all identical) that you can summon once per adventure.

Also, Infernalist is an expert class that lets you get spell levels early in exchange for permanent mid-range debuffs, and an Imp familiar. In that same pdf, there is the Familiar feat that lets you make your own familiar.

There's a few ways of going about it, but the nice thing is Animal Companion, Followers, and Personal Lieutenant are all free for anybody to take, you don't have any prerequisites like Class or whatnot.

>> No.32645762

I wish Animal Companion keyed off of something other than Terrain. Even Beastmaster doesn't seem to help it hold up against something like the Captain's Personal Leiutenant

>> No.32645800

The Familiar feat is in the Spellbound preview, not the Infernalist Call to Arms.

It's also apparently the first in a B/M/S chain, with the latter two feats in the series not given in the preview.

>> No.32645825

The problem with polearms is the supremacy feat. Wis isn't a stat most characters using polearms are going to pump very high, and the benefit of putting much into Wis over other stats is fairly small. All the other insta-kill tricks run off better stats.

Spinning Shield is really good if you have enough feats to negate the inherant AP of arrows AND have little enough vitality to actually care about taking extra damage from the ranged attacks that don't ignore DR, but there aren't many classes that hit both of these (only one that springs to mind is the Burglar).

Topple and Gut is really amazing, but a lot of the really dangerous enemies that are actually a threat laugh at tripping.

Yes, polearms have some neat stuff, but not enough to justify being your weapon of choice against the stuff other weapons get. A Martial Artist with polearms and knives does terrible things to anything unlucky enough to be tripable, though.

The Trip action says it can only be used against adjacent enemies. How do you know that the Topple and Gut trick overwrites this requirement?

>> No.32646294

It's more that Terrain feats tend to be rather circumstantial and often require some outside-the-box thinking to use effectively.

Battlefield Trickery relies on Ambushes, which PCs generally don't tend to have the luxury of using, generally being on the reactive end of things.

Bushwhack B/M/S requires a large numerical advantage, which usually means it won't kick in until later in a fight. Thus, it's often a win-more, outside of big solo bosses or boss fights where you clear the minions out first. Bushwhack Basics also pretty much demands you have Battlefield Trickery to get any reliable benefit, and likely an ability that lets you make an Ambush check quickly enough to use in combat after you've winnowed down the opposition (such as Ambush Basics or the Assassin's Quick on your Feet).

The Coordinated X feats basically demand that you be an armchair general, which doesn't quite fit every concept.

The Extra Mile is somewhat nice, but ultimately just saves your team the trouble of coming up with a good rationale for Cheating Death. With a creative group, it's fairly unnecessary. Plus, how often you'll actually need it depends heavily on how brutal your GM is.

Horde B/M/S suffers from the same stuff as Bushwhack.

And of course Pathfinder B/M/S is wholly dependent on where the campaign happens to take you.

>> No.32646399

So I was thinking of running a game with sorcery, difficult magic and corrupting magic.

However, because A) difficult magic is difficult and B) corruption sucks, I wanted to think of an "out" for sorcerers who want to take some extra precautions; setting up magical circles with the right materials used to draw it, casting in a place of naturally strong energy, performing songs and dances to invoke and appease ethereal spirits, et cetera, which could (depending on how well-researched and well-executed they are) prevent the corruption roll, reduce the SP spent in casting a spell, give your bonuses to your Spellcasting Check, et cetera.

Would you play a mage in a setting with these limitations, but this sort of "take several minutes to several hours preparing and not worry about the bullshit" way to deal with things? I wanna make the whole planned and prepared ritual thing the main way anyone gets magic done, with quick-fire spells being a sort of emergency casting method.

>> No.32646435

...which is exactly why I wish it didn't key off of Terrain feats. I just didn't feel like it needed explaining.

>> No.32646491

Personally, I'd allow one or the other for the Spellcaster (sort of like Dark Sun). Either the magic is hard to cast and takes longer, or it's corrupting.

>> No.32646496

It's amusing to watch FC go the same path as 4e, in that the "so balanced and everyone contributes" slowly becomes "use these builds or you'll suck as what you planned".

>> No.32646539

So quick casts might have a lower DC but run the risk of making your brain crazy, while high DC magic is more safe?

Yeah, I could see that. Makes it so the environment allows you to start over if need be, but the quick shit is easy at a cost. I'll probably still allow the expenditure of skill checks and resources to cheapen the SP use though.

Think I should make a mechanic where you can intentionally force yourself to fail a corruption test in order to not drain SP from a quick cast?

>> No.32646651

I don't know how much of this is theorycraft and how much of it applies to the average game, unfortunately.

>> No.32646708

It occurs to me that Misdirection and Wolf Pack might be better as Terrain feats.

>> No.32646994

Perhaps instead of Corruption, you could use a will save or receive one rank of fatigue. Instead of fucking over the PC completely by saying, "Okay, turn in your sheet", you can say, "The magic is out of control and you faint from all the energy. This is prevented by a will save of course.

>> No.32647328

I suppose what I was getting at there is that personally I'd tend to wish more that there were more Terrain feats that were consistently useful, solid picks.

That said, I don't know that the Beastmaster's AC is actually that bad off compared to a Captain's PL. The PL of a straight Captain can have a maximum of 100 XP (the Personal Lieutenant feat itself, plus seven Style and/or Basic Combat feats from career levels, plus 2 effective Basic Combat feats from Vanguard specialty), or 95 if using a specialty that grants a Basic Combat or Style feat rather than Vanguard. The Beastmaster, on the other hand, gets 50 free XP for his AC by class level 9, making a level 13 Beastmaster's AC slightly higher XP value than the PL of a level 18 Captain even if the Beastmaster takes no Terrain feats whatsoever aside from Animal Companion. The Captain's PL gets a TL boost from the class's gamebreaker, but then the Beastmaster's AC gets a variety of nifty bonuses and such, so it gets a little apples-and-oranges there.

Of course, a Captain could multiclass into Soldier or something to pick up some bonus feats, but the maximum that he could add this way without losing the capstone is 15 XP, putting him only 10 XP higher than the XP value of a Beastmaster with no Terrain feats whatsoever besides Animal Companion. If the Beastmaster picks up just two Terrain feats (Night Fighting at least is pretty much a shoo-in), he can catch right up.

>> No.32647466

Hm, you know, they really would.

I'm a little ambivalent about moving Misdirection, since it is pretty thematically appropriate to be something a Burglar or Emissary could take as a bonus feat, but it would still fit very well as a Terrain feat and that category probably needs the extra support more.

>> No.32647832

Wis is a pretty good stat though. Plays into a lot of skills, plus saves. It hardly hurts. And it's not like FC doesn't encourage spreading your stats around anyway.

>> No.32647876

You can honestly get away with anything, as long as you invest. The only bad build is 'one of every Basics', barring some really specific tricks, because it does pay to specialize.

Except crossbows.

>> No.32647890

>Wis isn't a stat most characters using polearms are going to pump very high

And why not? Wisdom-based skills are used to Taunt (Sense Motive) and Browbeat (Intimidate), for one, in addition to several other skills. It boosts Will saves, and if you decided to be a Rune Knight then it'll give you more spells known.

>> No.32648258


Different guy, just picked up Misdirection for my Gallant.

It doesn't belong in Terrain, it really has nothing to do with where you're standing or taking advantage of the environment. It's based more on quick wits and a sharp eye, so it fits with the Ambush line in Covert.

Honestly I wish it was a Style feat (since Gallant takes advantage of those) but whatever.


Am I the only one who doesn't work off the assumption that people are going to metagame to the top? I play with a group of varied characters and only one of them is that way, because all he likes doing is killing things.

It's boring as hell. Would you rather play a polearm user who can do nothing but kill things, or a polearm user with flavor?

>> No.32648312

It's not really metagaming if it's a clear idea. Having Sense Motive and high Wisdom can make sense in-character; the mercenary who 'feels' the flow of battle and knows just how to hit the foe in order to crumple him.

>> No.32648332


You're reading me backwards. I'm agreeing with you and disagreeing with people who think the only way to play a person with a sharp weapon is 18 STR 18 CON, etc etc etc

>> No.32648350

>All the good points are fixes of 3e issues

>> No.32648372

Have you not read this thread? All of those except for WoD have been suggested for people who want specific types of games that favor different types of playstyles.

>> No.32648435

Speaking of, what *is* Savage Worlds? I keep seeing it at my FLGS but I've no clue what it is.

>> No.32648440

Best feats for a Assassin / Gallant who goes the noble duelist route and takes pride in only fighting Special adversaries in 1 on 1 duels to the death (while acting like a Gallant should and making mad money outside of combat)?

Currently got Sword-Circle Basics + Mastery and Misdirection Basics.

Took Aristocrat as my Specialty when I realized Favored Foes from Ranger only applied to Standards.

I guess the idea is to buy a lot of Noble renown, fast talk people, and seek out the great challenges.

Suggest anything but race (because I realize there's a lot of flexibility in the human line, but my campaign requires me to not be one)

>> No.32648441

Wait, what the fuck does WoD have to do with anything?


>> No.32648456

It's also worth noting that the whole "combat types don't use high Wis" applies as much to NPCs as to PCs. The simple fact that you're keying your instakill trick off Wis instead of a more typical combatant stat means the spectrum of opponents it'll be useful against is very different. You'll have to be pretty burly to Splatter or Cleave in Twain a big beefy combat brute, but a Skull Crack will usually do the trick against that kind of enemy even if you have only a modest Wis. In fact, going by a quick skim through the bestiary it looks like a fair majority of the monsters therein have fairly mediocre Wis scores, so even a 13 (12 to start, +1 from the feat) should serve you pretty well.

>> No.32648508

>It doesn't belong in Terrain, it really has nothing to do with where you're standing or taking advantage of the environment. It's based more on quick wits and a sharp eye, so it fits with the Ambush line in Covert.
Terrain feats are as much about tactics and teamwork as about positioning and environment, though. In that respect, Misdirection fits pretty well.

But like I said, it does also fit very well under Covert. It's definitely a tricky, devious sort of tactics and teamwork, so it sort of bridges the two categories.

>> No.32648521

It's hilarious, they'll totally claim that WoD is fair and balanced in a Pathfinder thread every time

>> No.32648523

One of these is not like the others.

>> No.32648528

I personally think that some feats should count in multiple areas. Yeoman's Work, for instance, should be both Craft and Style.

>> No.32648583

Interesting. I'll add that to the list of things to ask about at the Crafty Seminar thing I plan on going to at GenCon (along with Spellbound, and how they feel about the 7-point race creation guide available online).

>> No.32648596

Agreed on the first point, though I don't quite agree with the specific example of Yeoman's Work. I mean, yeah, it boosts an aspect of your Lifestyle, but it's the "nofun penny-pinching pragmatist" side of Lifestyle, which doesn't really have much to do with the social flair and people skills Style feats are all about.

>> No.32648627

Oh, can you ask them if they have any plans for the Industrial campaign era they touched on, but never developed on page 307 of the core book?

>> No.32648641

Bet you anything they're response to multi-classification of feats will be something to the effect of "yeah, that certainly sounds like a reasonable houserule one might use, just be careful to keep an eye on things that might get out of hand from the potential added value".

>> No.32648661

Sure can do.
Yeah, but that is a pretty solid answer, and an official endorsement of homebrewing is nice to have.

>> No.32648762

>Yeah, but that is a pretty solid answer, and an official endorsement of homebrewing is nice to have.
Man, have you been on the Crafty forums? Practically every other question about rules interpretations in the Q&A sticky is basically answered with some form of "whatever works best at your table, we like to keep this sort of thing open for individual judgment". The Crafty guys are crazy supportive of houserules and homebrewing. They really meant it when they put that slogan on the back cover.

>> No.32648791

I have not been to the forums, that's good to hear. Perhaps they'd be amenable to publishing some sort of 'how-to' or 'tips and tricks' guide for homebrewing feats/classes/races/etc in FC, or in Spycraft, or whatever.

>> No.32648855


Potentially dangerous considering many of the "count x feats as y feats" class abilities.

>> No.32648907

An official version of the race- and class-building guides would be pretty neat. Though I can see why they wouldn't want to, given that they are still a game company and need to be able to make new splats to make money. I personally don't imagine we'll ever get anything more than the present wink-wink-nudge-nudge tacit approval of the fanmade guides, but it could be possible.

>> No.32648940

I don't think Crafty is a fan of splats, as the only ones I know of are single-class amendments in the Call to Arms series.

>> No.32648946


The forums are hilariously, hilariously slow, even slower than this general.

There is one exception: a new thread warrants as many replies from the regulars as they deem necessary, then immediately dies.

>> No.32649005


It's a pulpy genre-independent game that's either light rules-medium or heavy rules-light.
It's kinda neat, though a little weird in places. There are generals for it once in a while.

>> No.32649013

I don't know that it's so much that they're "not a fan" of splats so much as they just don't have the resources to produce them at the same pace as is typical for larger companies. They've got Spellbound (eternally) in the works, and I've seen a few mentions floating around of a planned equipment-focused splat called "Gear for the Ages", which I presume is the next big installment for Fantasy Craft once Spellbound finally gets either finished or canceled.

>> No.32649903

They would still be able to make splats that include races.We have the race builder, but it is limited to having only the specific options on it. If they added new races, they could also add new racial benefits, and if they formalized the race builder, could list the point cost of those new benefits, and now the people who don't care to homebrew get new races, and the people who do get a wider variety of things to build from.

>> No.32652032

The only thing I'd argue is that your average standard NPC is going to have 10 wisdom. Look through the bestiary and rogues gallery. Most are straight 10s across all 6 stats, meaning an 11 or 12 gives you higher Wisdom than just about anything you'd reasonably be fighting, allowing you to sweep away a few mooks per combat.

>> No.32652203

Do you think it would be a bad idea to open up the race builder to players?

>> No.32652328

Why not? You can always oversee it and allow the group to call a vote if they have a problem.

Then you can turn chargen into a world creation exercise.

>> No.32652354

I always thought the NPC condition was the same as your ranks of Tainted, and reverts by one step at the end of the scene. Basically being exactly how you fluffed it, just turning them into a blubbering simpleton until then.

>> No.32652668


Hm, a'ight. I don't quite get the guide to feats though.

>> No.32654210

More like a raving demoniac than a blubbering simpleton, if we're talking Tainted, but that seems like a reasonable way of ruling it.

>> No.32654337

The Species feat guide is basically the same as the guides for base species and specialties -- it's just a listing of options with associated point costs. You can also generally dip into the species and specialty guides for things not listed in the feat guide and use that at the same cost, though if something's listed in both places you should go with the value in the feat guide. Also, there are some things under specialties that I figure are probably best not appearing anywhere else (particularly the Harsh Beating and Terrifying Look abilities, because stacking those from multiple sources would get insane), so you'll have to kind of use your judgment for that sort of thing.

The trickiest thing about Species feats is that there isn't really a fixed point value they're supposed to add up to like with base species. There's the general guideline that the first feat in the chain probably shouldn't exceed 3 points if you can help it, and a full two-feat chain should be no more than 7 (ideally closer to 5), but those guidelines are flexible. Personally, I generally try to stick with 2-3 points for both feats with a total of ~5, erring on the lower end if the feat synergizes well with the base features of the species, and occasionally going a bit over only if the splinter race is playing against type for the base species.

It's a bit more art than science, compared to building a base species or specialty.

>> No.32655191

An Assassin gets only the feats from career level plus four temporary Melee Combat feats, which isn't a whole lot compared to what most combat-focused characters get.

Eventually you'll want the Sword-Circle and Fencing chains, plus All Out Attack and at least Darting Weapon, with Flashing Weapon as an option eventually. In addition to Misdirection Basics, you could consider the Ambush and Ferocity chains (Ferocity is better overall, but Ambush Mastery lets you Faint and then score multiple hits with subdual damage and sneak attack dice on your Fencing Blade).

With a total of 11 feats + whatever your specialty grants, plus the required Style feat for Gallant, you aren't going to be able to take every combat feat you want as an Assassin, though a Burglar probably could.

Your ideal race is gonna be Saurian, because their Achilles heel of cold damage is likely to be irrelevant, or at least not a huge impediment, in the settings your character expects to be in and gives the best bonuses.

>> No.32656050

Work with the players. Integrate the race into the setting. Insist on some input in creating the race, because its very easy to abuse.

A player wanting to make a race can do so with the intent of wanting to create something that perfectly compliments and enhances a powerful or min-max'd build.

>> No.32656604


I think it's funny some people suggest that since FC has a bunch of cumbersome, unintuitive rules that infringe on RPing (like contacts, favors, panache, prudence, etc) that means FC handles out-of-combat situations better.

It's a bit of a non sequitur.

>I want to ask that NPC we met last session about something
>Do you have him as a contact? Do you have any favors?
>I want to save up some money
>Nope your prudence is too low, I have to force you squander your money

Just because there are rules for something doesn't mean those are good rules.

>> No.32656651

That's not what those rules mean. If Prudence is low then you can't pull out emergency funds when you've got no more moneys. If you don't have contacts you can't announce an NPC being there. Neither of them means that they have to do ANYTHING with things that the DM has already announced are there - They're narrative mechanics that let the player make some changes to what's going on to their advantage.

>> No.32656782


>At the end of each adventure you can transfer a certain amount of your coin in hand into your stake. The rest is automatically spent during Downtime, frittered away on pleasures and covering expenses not expressly taken into account by the rules (e.g. dayto-day living, entertainment, personal debts, and the like). The amount you can transfer into your stake after each adventure is determined by your Prudence (see below).

page 153

>> No.32656824

So spend it on shit you want.

After all, it's percentage based. If you have less coin left over, less gets frittered away.

>> No.32656900


>I want to save up some money
>Nope your prudence is too low, I have to force you squander your money
>Just because there are rules for something doesn't mean those are good rules

My original point. It still stands does it not?

>> No.32656957

>I want to ask that NPC we met last session about something
>Do you have him as a contact? Do you have any favors?
That's not how Contacts and Favors work. Having a Contact means you have an established relationship with a particular NPC and you can call on them on your terms. The Contact mechanics in no way preclude you from interacting with NPCs normally. In fact, the social skills and Disposition rules cover that in detail. The point of having a Contact is that you don't need to rely on being able to make the social check, and you can call them to you rather than having to go find them.

Likewise, Favors are just things you can officially, no-questions-asked, pull in on your own terms, assuming you have the appropriate social status and pull to do so (ie, Renown and Rep). If you can RP a way to convince an NPC to do something for you, that's entirely separate. And a GM can easily hand out a Favor as a reward for proper RP, in much the same way he could hand out a magic item as a reward for clearing a dungeon.

>I want to save up some money
>Nope your prudence is too low, I have to force you squander your money

Prudence is like knowledge and social skills -- it's not enough to simply say that your character knows a lot about X, or has a silver tongue, or has the discipline and economic savvy to save up money well. You have to back that up with the appropriate investments. It's just one among many stats representing your character's personality and capabilities.

>> No.32657025

>As a player, you want to save up money
>Your character is shit at saving money.

>> No.32657087

Low prudence mean you suck at personal finances. If you want to save money, git gud.

>> No.32657142


I'm still not convinced that there should be rules for this at all though.

>> No.32657183

I think he is saying is that if you want your character to be good at saving money, then you should try to build the character appropriately.

>> No.32657239


>It's just one among many stats representing your character's personality and capabilities.

It infringes too much on the RPing aspect of RPGs. Not even allowing players to save their own money, which they earned, is a bit much.

Players don't need to have a stat or a skill to cover everything they could possible do, especially when it comes to managing rewards they've already earned. PCs have already gone through the trial to get the money, let them keep it. It's like forcing players to make an intelligence check before coming up with a strategy that they worked on.

>Sorry you can't attack from the high ground because none of your characters are smart enough to come up with that strategy
>Even though you found all the evidence none of your characters are smart enough to figure out the butler did it. Sorry

Although from those comments it seems clear you're rabid fanboys who aren't going to honestly examine their favorite system, but w/e.

>> No.32657276

>rabid fanboys

Oh boy, here we go.

>> No.32657339

>cumbersome, unintuitive rules that infringe on RPing

I personally haven't found FC's out-of-combat rules cumbersome. A few of them have that small step of learning how they work, but that's it. I also haven't found them unintuitive, for the most part, but that's very subjective.

But you are wrong that they infringe on roleplaying. Rather, they allow it to work without the GM having to pull shit out of her ass. Say in Pathfinder I wanted to make a character based around social interaction. She has lots of contacts, is good at getting people to do stuff for her, etc. How does the GM determine whether she has a contact at the queen's palace who can sneak the party in? If the GM just disallows this, then roleplaying is squashed. On the other hand, if the GM always allows it, then my character outshines other characters, gets a disproportionate share of the spotlight, etc. So there needs to be some sort of limitation on how many contacts my character has and what she can convince them to do. Not having mechanics for it just means that it has to be made up on the spot, probably to poor effect.

>> No.32657386

The thing is, within the system, Prudence is part of the economy. The rewards are tuned with the assumption that players will either spend them for rewards now (you don't have to put your cool new sword in your Stash) but that they're restricted from destabilizing the economy because of, you know, the living costs associated with BEING AN ADVENTURER - rent at inns, buying drinks for the kind of guys who have hot quest tips, buttering up nobles, whoring and carousing.

It looks silly in a vacuum, but in play, it works pretty damn well.

>> No.32657469

How the fuck is the idea that characters have expenses beyond adventuring and some of them manage their money better than others "infringing on RP"?

Know what infringes on my RP? When the heroes of the realm roll around mediaeval fantasy land carrying immense fortunes in readily accessible cash and never have it tied up in land or have to pay taxes or have any dependents or spend it on anything except iron rations and +3 swords of perfect murder.

>> No.32657473

So I've noticed that the average burglar will consistently be able to trip pretty much anything up to a size category bigger than him - including horses - without much difficulty

is that intended, because its a bit silly

>> No.32657540

The way I look at it, Prudence has three main purposes:

1) It handles all your "upkeep costs" for downtime -- food, lodging, maintenance of gear, taxes, etc. It serves as a reminder that your character is, in fact, a human being (or dwarven being, or elven being, or saurian being, etc.) with normal needs and a life outside of murderhoboing, but doesn't bog you down with the nitty-gritty details thereof.

2) As a corollary to 1, this also serves as a prompt for you to think about where that money is going, helping to flesh out your character. Is your character a party animal who spends it all on ale and whores? Is he a devout worshipper who donates heavily to his church, or a philanthropist who gives to charity? Does he send money home to support his family? Does he have debts to pay off due to something in his past? There's a lot of room for fleshing out your character

3) It provides an alternative flavor for Lifestyle. Not everyone wants to be the flashy high-roller that a high Panache suggests, what with the Appearance bonus and all. Prudence gives an alternative way to invest your Lifestyle to still gain a monetary benefit, but in a more low-key style. It makes it so Lifestyle (ie, your money stat) does not necessarily equate directly to being a fancy-pants celebrity type. You have the choice of being anywhere along a spectrum from Gatsby to Scrooge.

>> No.32657553

That so many combat actions depend on rolling off skills that most of your opponents won't have trained is one of the game's less appealing quirks.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with being able to trip a horse though. You don't have to send your enemy rolling head over heels, just foul up their legs in a way that makes them momentarily vulnerable.

>> No.32657607

Yes. Burglars are slippery, tricky bastards, and Tripping in Fantasy Craft is generally flavored more as tricky maneuvering to get your opponent tangled up or off-balance rather than just shoving them over or forcibly yanking their legs out from under them.

Also, it's worth noting that most horses (notably including the ones you'd be most likely to end up fighting -- ie, wild horses and warhorses) have Improved Stability, which means they're effectively Huge for the purposes of resisting trips and thus would not be trippable by a Medium-size Burglar.

>> No.32657637

I always make my players really track their gold, and bags of holding are rare and precious. This means my players tend to invest in gemstones, though since they've gotten a castle they've funneled a lot of money into fixing it up and attracting peasants to farm the land

>> No.32657649

That's absolutely intended. Because you're a burglar. Of course you're tricksy in a fight. Scramble between their legs, give 'em a dirty tackle, you know, thief shit

FC PCs are very competent

>> No.32657651

I always thought Panache was the more interesting route to go with your lifestyle. It's not just about about being a fop, it's about being wealthy in the way real world wealthy people are - you're always well dressed and you don't have to worry about day to day expenses, but there's a practical limit to how much you can hit up your family or holdings for.

>> No.32657699

>That so many combat actions depend on rolling off skills that most of your opponents won't have trained is one of the game's less appealing quirks.
Personally, I find that to be a good thing. At any rate, it's certainly better than 3.P's "don't even bother unless you're minmaxed for this six ways to Sunday, and even then generally no". The fact that they're usually pretty reliable helps make them more appealing as something to do in combat, and even with that reliability, there are still those who figure using your actions for anything other than damage isn't worth it anyway, so I'd say it needs that edge.

But then again, tastes differ.

>> No.32657738

>That so many combat actions depend on rolling off skills that most of your opponents won't have trained is one of the game's less appealing quirks.

For NPCs, "untrained" skills are based off their competence bonus. It's not like a TL 20 monster is going to have 0 in acrobatics because they don't have any skill ranks in it.

>> No.32657939

That said, they're still going to be at a sizable disadvantage compared to a maxed-out PC. Even Competence X still puts an NPC a bit behind a PC with max ranks.

They'll still have a chance of success, just not usually a terribly good one.

>> No.32658197

Is ceremonial armor a trap option?

Because it seems like a trap option.

>> No.32658215

Why would it be a trap option? Appearance helps with lots of Cha-based checks, and some of those are skills you could use in combat.

It's pricey, admittedly. I wouldn't buy it as a starting character, but starting silver is pretty low anyway.

>> No.32658222

So when a PC who has followers or a mount is designing their NPC companions, are they limited to the NPC templates (Dire, Ghostly, etc.) or can they use the NPC Qualities too? (Always Ready, Unnerving, etc.)

>> No.32658239

Appearance helps your CHA, and classes like the Courtier can use CHA for a bunch of combat stuff.

>> No.32658244

It's for Courtiers and the like. Folks that are more interested in Cha skills than combat. Stacking Appearance bonuses can be pretty boss.

>> No.32658254

They can do whatever they want, but if it's not a template out of the Bestiary/Rogues Gallery, it's GM Approval

>> No.32658283

Entirely up to the GM. Some might not even allow templates, some might allow you to build an NPC entirely from scratch. Whatever the group is most comfortable with.

>> No.32658450

I have a theoretical super-sexy goblin character planned, starting with cute and cuddly, then the chainmail bikini feat, eventually going into swashbuckler.

>> No.32658496

I want to make a Legend of Zelda game, how easy would that be to make in Fantasycraft?

>> No.32658743

It would. Cut out all the races except for human, make more talents that pertain to LoZ. I don't know how magic and gods work in LoZ, but it seems like low magic/low fantasy setting, so not much work.

>> No.32658793

It goes both ways though, and it's pretty frustrating for a player to be at the mercy of enemies that know how to trip just becaues there was no room for acrobatics in their character concept.

It's just the sort of thing I feel everyone should get a baseline defence against. Unfortunately the D20 framework makes it impractical to pit skills against saves or attack rolls.

>> No.32658797

It would be easy enough to brew up the races with the guides available, and most of the classic items are either already represented or would be easy enough to homebrew.

Only thing I can think of that might pose a problem would be that, while there is a sword spin ability, it's specific to greatswords, so you couldn't really do it with a classic Link sword-and-board setup. (Though it is possible to go greatsword-and-shield if you take Spear Basics for the Monkey Grip stance...not exactly the same thing, though.)

>> No.32658822

So let's see. Gorons should definitely have Thick Hide. What about Zora?

>> No.32658924

Waterbreathing garantued

>> No.32658938

Aquatic II? A swim speed? I don't think the homebrew guides have that.

>> No.32658952

And they can convert all their wealth to portable gemstones and then try to spend those gems on real goods without making a huge loss? That stretches my suspension of disbelief almost as much as the idea of adventurers who've struck it rich deciding they want nothing more than to stuff their panties full of diamonds.

Any attempt to simulate the world in a way that accounts for every coin spent is going to end up being less plausible than having a mechanic to abstract away the bulk of your economic activity. The only issue with the FC method is that it's not totally cut and dry about when you apply the prudence tax - at the end of the adventure? at the beginning of downtime? It can make for an interesting dilemma when you have the prospect of spending the full value of your loot, but only if you spend it all right now and only on such stuff as can be found in this pissant village.

>> No.32658974

I'd say Large size (but no extra reach), Thick Hide, Improved Stability, and Trample for Gorons. Probably with a reduced speed. Use the remaining points for stat adjustments.

Zora should definitely have Aquatic II, which isn't in the base species guide, but is rated at 2 points in the Species feats so that should do it. Also at least Superior Swimmer III (the minimum you need to swim as fast as your land speed), or perhaps even higher to let them swim faster than they walk. Superior Swimmer is rated at 0.5 points per grade in the Species feat guide, so should be the same for a base species.

>> No.32658993


> an interesting dilemma

Except there's nothing interesting about deciding how the money I already earned is going to be taken from me.

>> No.32659037

it's just coin bro. if you want to accumulate mountains of gold pieces, D&D is right there

>> No.32659362

The one in my game is using a spear, but other than that, yeah. Being a shapeshifter seems pretty fun. Although he's fluffing it as an illusion rather than a physical transformation, which saves me a lot of headaches re: size modifiers to everything.

>> No.32660050

Low level. Very, very low level. Epic 6 rules if you have to. Staying low level, even if enemies get stronger, forces players to fight smart, instead of just fighting hard.

Then you'd have to design a series of artifacts, with each player possibly starting with a dinky version of the Sword, Bow, and Hammer, and then upgrading to something like 'The Master Hammer' or whatever, which could be a magical item with a scaling damage and accuracy bonus.

Then, each character gets two or of each of the iconic items, like the hookshot or boomerang.

Then you'd have to design dungeons that utilize and require each of the items the players find.

>> No.32661490

So I've been told that specialists are generally better at certain actions than mages are in the area of specialization.

When I look at the rules, I wonder how a medicine - focused keeper can keep pace with a mage who takes healing spells at higher levels. The mend action takes a full minute, heals 2d6 (4d6 on a threat), and that amount is split among sub, vitality, and wounds. This ability does not seem to scale or improve by career level without other character options (unless I missed something, and if so please point it out).

Mages, though, have the Cure Wounds spells, which take one full action and instantly adds significant points back to vitality, or wounds, especially at Cure Wounds IV, and even gets upgraded to Mass.

I understand that the Medicine skill also has utilities outside of just healing those numbers, but even then, magic seems to outpace even those utilities. Why use medicine to double or triple a character's healing rate when a mage can heal up his spell points?

Finally, a mend or calm check can only target once a day (without character options) , but a mage's spell points resource is refreshed on a per-scene basis, which almost appears to outcompete even with those character options.

Am I missing something here? If I wanted to make a great healing character is it really better to make a Cure Wounds mage than to make a medicine-focused Keeper?

>> No.32661675

Healing is one of the few areas where magic is better than mundane. Healing in general is less important, as Vitality heals very fast, and there are Refresh actions which heal you. Mundane healing can be quite effective, but magical healing is better, yes.

>> No.32661885

A few generals ago someone stated that they were going to make a Player Character Creator Program, did anything come of that fellow?

>> No.32661946

Is it possible to Dragoon in this system?

>> No.32663376


My race actually is Saurian.

Although I think you've misunderstood a bit - Assassin was only the setup for Gallant. I don't want to be a combat character, I just want to be competent in a fight.

The temporary melee combat feats last for the entire adventure, which in my opinion makes the Assassin part more flexible than normal. Instead of having to pick feats and keep them, I can pick and choose depending on what situation I'm in (given I have an hour, of course).

The same goes for Gallant: with Victory Flourish, I can take some of those Basic Combat feats you mentioned after downing a Special. Those last only a scene, but our scenes are fairly long.

I'm planning on moving onto Reagent at 10 from Gallant.

>> No.32663467


Do you realize how little money actually does in this setting? Like if you want a boat sure, use your Stake, but outside of that you should be able to buy whatever you want/need with your money in-hand.

Stop whining, if you dislike it either houserule it out or actually get good and spend your Lifestyle on Prudence.

>> No.32663504



Lookit this nerd fellas, he thinks there's gold in this setting

The group I play with says "gold" too

>> No.32664528

>If I wanted to make a great healing character is it really better to make a Cure Wounds mage than to make a medicine-focused Keeper?

Yes. What's more there's no reason to make a medicine-focused keeper even in a no-magic game, you only need to put 1 rank in medicine and your mend checks will succeed eventually (always, with the keeper level 1 ability) so build your keeper around crafting where it is actually possible to get a better return by investing more of your character options.

>Healing in general is less important, as Vitality heals very fast, and there are Refresh actions which heal you.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't you think? A max-level character recovers 20 vit/hour. A level 1 mage with Touch of Light can heal up to 600 vitality in an hour. A level 6 mage who choose Cure I for their first spell secret can cure any amount of wound damage, meaning there's no limit to the number of fights the party can handle in a day as long as they get a few minutes here and there to rest up, while the dedicated medic is rolling 2d6 for the damage they can treat per day (maybe twice with a feat!), even at level 20 with a +30 skill bonus.

It would be cool if there was parity, but there is not. Magic operates on different rules from everything else in the game and including magic in your campaign can make some character options irrelevant or unwise. Healing is only the most egregious example.

>> No.32664664

Low level? Endgame Link's health pool inflates like he's an FC character that just completed his master class.

>> No.32665759

>A level 1 mage with Touch of Light can heal up to 600 vitality in an hour
If you let him roll six hundred Spellcasting checks, yes.

Spell Secret for Cure I IS a pretty powerful healing option though, I'll give you that. Touch of Light isn't super practical in most instances though and it only handles Vitality damage.

Anyway, healing is probably the one place where magic is ahead of the curve. Keepers can be good at an absurd number of things, though, and in a party without a Mage Medicine is a godsend.

>> No.32666387

Best species feat for Saurian Courtier/Gallant GO

>> No.32666754

Extra Contact and Extra Holding are both very good. Chainmail Bikini gives you an easy source of Fixation for in-combat disables.

If you have Beguiling from some source, then Aggro Basics/Mastery/Supremacy can be hard as fuck.

Extra Contact and Extra Holding are both really outstanding. Mark is one of the most understated, but wholly amazing feats:

You can size anyone up at a glance.
Benefit:Once per character per scene, as a free action, you may learn the total bonuses of 3 skills belonging to a character in your line of sight.

"The blacksmith offers to clean and repair your +10 Daggers of Fucksmithery for free, as he has heard tales of your heroics!"

"Using my Mark on him. Crafting, Bluff, and... Spellcasting."

"He has a +2 to Crafting, +8 to Bluff, and a +10 to Spellcasting."

"I observe from the lack of callouses on his hands, the slick way he comports himself, and the distinct scent of guano surrounding him, that this could not possibly be the legendary blacksmith Callahan ,and is instead some sort of wizard imposter!"

If you're a Saurian, Martial Arts (CHA or WIS) is really good, since your Natural Attacks count as Unarmed attacks for the purpose of feats and abilities and tricks and such. Safe House is also a good feat, and most of the chance feats go well for your purposes.

>> No.32666802


I said "species" feat, meaning Splinter Race feats, but thanks for the good general feat suggestions as well.

I'm getting Extra Holding from Reagent eventually. Mark is pretty cool, I'll admit.

Right now I have two of the three Sword-Circle feats and Comely.

I'm trying to pick the most advantageous Species Feat for myself. Angelic/Demonic/Draconic Heritage are off-limits and Elemental Heritage is as well more than likely. I wish the Desert Clutch feat gave beguiling right off the bat and didn't build on Con.

In our game we get a free Species Feat when we make our character, so I just have to pick the best one I can.

>> No.32667316

There aren't many "best" feats, it's ultimately what you want your character to do. Some feats are more situational, but it's hardly clear-cut.

That being said:

Desert Clutch is amazing, because Menacing Threat is grand.

Toxin Sacs or Enhanced Natural Attack are likewise quite good.

>> No.32667476


Desert Clutch was my first pick, although I don't know how beneficial it would be towards a Talker/Backer who isn't quick great at fighting.

Jungle Clutch seems more in line with staying out of combat because of the Camouflage bonus. I have two of the three Sword-Circle feats, but may stray even farther away from the combat path. A lot of these speech options are really enticing.

>> No.32667508

Rock Clutch is probably the weakest - all the other Clutch/Crest options are pretty great.

Even then, Rock Clutch isn't terrible. It's just not a very powerful addition, because of the limitations of gaze attacks. In the end the stress damage it delivers is about on par with Glint of Madness and its other advantages are only so-so.

Still pretty cool, but it's a shame - I've personally always liked the idea of playing a Saurian Blooded, Rock Clutch human themed off Alexander the Great. Tie in the myth that his mother supposedly slept with Zeus in the form of a serpent, and play on the pun of the Basilisk being the 'Little King'.

>> No.32667552


Rock Clutch really nerfs me anyhow, as I use Dex and Fencing Blades to fight.

Honestly I wish there were a Charisma based option I could take, or something to complement Courtier / Gallant / Reagent.

>> No.32667565

Yeah, there's not a lot in terms of 'charismatic snake'. Which on one hand, you're a big scaly monster, sure - but on the other hand, come on, serpents are like, THE emblem of shifty sorcerers and charismatic viziers.

>> No.32667601

All setting I make feature snakefolk of some form or other trying to manipulate the world in order to have them return to dominance.

So sad that so few rpg's have them working that way

>> No.32667603

Hey, if you want something Talk-y, then Desert Clutch + Glint of Madness is fan-fucking-tastic.

>> No.32667659


They are quite effective, because you see, you don't have to fight using your swords. The Threaten action deals damage, and each damage causes them to make a save or take a debuff. If you take Glint of Madness and take Desert Clutch as your free species feat the GM is giving you, then you can, as a half action, target 3 different people, using one of your well-trained skills, and deal 1d10 Stress damage to each of them.

Glint of Madness works well for a Courtier, who has the high social stats that Threaten keys off, and a Gallant, who still has high social stats, and has other abilities which key off of dropping an opponent.

>> No.32667698

Yeah, Desert Clutch is good.

We were on a Rock Clutch tangent though, so you sort of misquoted.

Right? I like snakes and serpents and lizards, but I still like them to be shifty, manipulative fucks. The closest they come to 'trustworthy' is one setting where they were essentially the Turk equivalent. And even then they had a weird Janissary-inspired cult of snakemen raised up from their client races (mechanically they were Saurian Blooded)

>> No.32667839


Ah! For some reason I assumed Menacing Threat was Taunt, not Threaten.

That clears up a lot of my own confusion. Threaten certainly is far more stronger for my position.

Desert Clutch it is.

>> No.32670574

Isn't there one already?
Here : http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=7492.45

Maybe they still accept beta testers.

>> No.32670937

As far as I can tell, the Angelic/Demonic/Elemental Heritage feats are perfectly allowed... as long as you don't try and go for the Legacy feat unless you're Human (or Drake/Giant, for Elemental). Draconic is actually one of the few 'multirace' feats that Saurians actually can take up to Legacy.

I'm going by the assumption that, since Angelic/Demonic/Draconic/Elemental Heritage doesn't have any species prerequisites, that they can be taken by anyone.

>> No.32671024

I think the anon was talking more about campaign setting issues than RAW.

>> No.32671340


Considering how much emphasis the game puts on opposed skill checks, and the fact that Medicine isn't used as an opposed check in any situation, and on top that Medicine is far outclassed by magic, it's kind of silly to suggest that wasting ranks in Medicine isn't a trap option.

>> No.32671508

Medicine is certainly outclassed by magic for healing wounds and vitality, but you'll be wishing somebody had Medicine when it comes to healing critical injuries. The only spell that can touch critical injuries is Regenerate, which is a level 7 spell. The earliest you can possibly gain access to it is career level 9 (requiring a Priest with maxed steps on the Path of Life); the earliest for a Mage is level 11 (using a Spell Secret slot on it and a Spell Conversion feat to reduce the level).

Plus, just because it's outclassed by magic doesn't mean it's useless. That's a false dichotomy. You're definitely *better off* having a Mage with Touch of Light and Cure Wounds, to be sure, but Medicine is perfectly adequate for out of combat healing. It's probably not anything worth investing all that heavily in if you have a Mage to toss Cure Wounds spells around (though you'll still want some to handle critical injuries), but it does the job well enough that a Mage isn't strictly *necessary*.

If nobody wants to play a Mage, or if healing magic doesn't suit your Mage's concept, you'll still be able to get people healed up in a reasonably timely manner. Not "five-minute break before moving on to the next fight" timely, but no more than a day, two days at most -- which, if you're running the world realistically, is not actually that long. The world moves a lot slower without ubiquitous means of fast long-distance travel and communication.

>> No.32671512

I guess what I'm saying here is, Medicine is definitely on the weaker end of things as skills go (even if you're relying on it exclusively, there's really not much point in raising it any further once you can hit DC 20 reliably), but I wouldn't call it a trap option.

>> No.32671826

Past 'hitting DC 20', improving Medicine is more about getting your threat range down (for that sweet doubled healing) and getting the Bandage feat (so you can use it twice a day)

I will admit that the fixed DC and lack of opposed checks means that you pretty much want to get to a dependable rank and then focus on other skills.

>> No.32671893

Plus you need a skill like Medicine for campaigns where magic isn't used, or limited.

>> No.32671949

Yeah, Legendary Skill Mastery and Bandage are pretty much must-haves for a serious non-magical healer.

Which, incidentally, since Medicine is paired with Sense Motive for Skill Mastery feats, means that a healer can be pretty solid with Taunts and the Sword tree.

>> No.32672000

Yeah, Healer is a great pair in a non-magical party. Medicine is a situationally useful skill, but Sense Motive is ALWAYS good. Taunt, the Sword tricks, the fact that, well, being able to Sense Motive is damn useful in general.

Heck, take Talented (Healer) and you can get one or the other as free ranks.

>> No.32673300

I'm the fellow in question
I stopped when I saw that there was already one

>> No.32673416

Well, if we're assuming a skillmonkey class base like Keeper for this, Talented probably isn't worth it unless you just really want your character to be a true polymath. A Keeper already has enough skill points to max half the skills in the game given a reasonably decent Int, so spending a feat for free skill points strikes me as a bit unnecessarily greedy.

Though, if you were doing something a bit less skill-focused, it would certainly be a reasonable pick. Though I'd probably angle for a suitable specialty that can give a paired skill benefit rather than using the feat slot for Talented, if possible. There's just so much cool stuff you can get from feats in Fantasy Craft, using a feat for skill points just feels like a bit of a waste to me.

>> No.32673465

Talented is great for a skill you can't get as a Class Skill, though, for the same reason that anyone who gets Athletics but not Impress instantly becomes a better social character by becoming a Gladiator.

I agree that it's not the COOLEST thing you can do with a feat - but that doesn't make it a weak feat. Though yes, probably unnecessary for a Keeper.

Though for pure Skill Monkey action, a Sage can have access to literally every skill in the game with a little work and a crazy optimized build. Or, like, 4/5ths of the skill list normally.

>> No.32673704

>Though for pure Skill Monkey action, a Sage can have access to literally every skill in the game with a little work and a crazy optimized build. Or, like, 4/5ths of the skill list normally.
It doesn't really take that crazy optimized of a build. As you say, they get 4/5ths of the skill list just normally. From there you just need a specific Talent, your choice of two specific Specialties, and a feat. And a cross-training benefit if you want to go full completion and get Spellcasting, I guess.

The tricky part is having enough skill points to have more than a handful of them ranked up particularly far...

Come to think of it, this build is practically begging for I Can Swim! Even if you can't get them all ranked up terribly high, the flexibility to have literally any skill you need, as you happen to need it (until you've dried up your skill point allotment for the level, anyway) is pretty damn sexy.

>> No.32673777

Yeah, but that first rank is easily the most important - just by adding 1 rank, your maximum result goes from 15 to 21 + Ability Mod.

Dabbling isn't a terrible proposition.

>> No.32674159

True. And with this build, you can easily have that 1 rank in every skill and still be able to get a decent handful of key skills maxed out right off the bat. If you go Tribesman, you can take Talented (Athlete) at level 1, combining with the paired skills to give you a free rank in both Athletics and Survival for each rank you buy in Resolve. With that setup and 14 starting Int, you can have 1 rank in every skill (2 in those from Breadth of Experience) and have 18 skill points left -- enough to max out at least 6 skills (more if among these is Resolve or any of your Breadth of Experience skills).

If you max Resolve, you get Athletics and Survival maxed for free along with it, and if you then spend the 8 points needed to max out your Breadth of Experience skills you'll have enough to max out two more and bring another one up to 2 ranks. That's 9 skills maxed, one at 2 ranks, and every other skill at 1 rank, just from a decent Int and the right Talent, Specialty, and first-level feat.

At 2nd level you keep your maxed skills maxed and shore up one more of your choice, then at 3rd level you can take I Can Swim! and from then on be a complete freewheeling bastard who just throws points wherever they're needed at the time.

>> No.32674200

>What do you do?
Factotum, eat your heart out.

>> No.32674435

If only the various "gain a temporary X feat of your choice" abilities like the Assassin's Blade Practice or the Captain's Art of War aren't available as Cross-Training options. If you could take stuff like that for all your Cross-Training after picking up Subtle & Quick to Anger, you really would be the do-everything guy.

>> No.32675315

Well I certainly would, or more likely just handwave it away saying he misses one roll in three or whatever but eventually everyone is healed.

Is the sheer tedium of rolling it out meant to be the limiting factor on spells that cost nothing? Because... ugh.

>> No.32675472

Nah, I'm pretty sure it's fully intended to be spammable. Vitality's just cheap enough to begin with that they don't see any problem with making it even cheaper.

Not to mention, since the DC for a cantrip is only 13, it's not hard to hit autosuccess level for such spells. If you take one or two feats in the Casting B/M/S chain, you can easily autosucceed casting checks for cantrips by level 3 or 4. At that point, there's literally no purpose whatsoever to rolling because no matter what you roll the outcome is the same.

>> No.32675499


Yeah, nah, I can read "Level 1" as the only pre-requisite, >>32671024 is right. They're disallowed in the setting.

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