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[ERROR] No.31929897 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

This just in, high level fighters have always been supernatural, just in a low-key, less interesting to play way. Eat it, SKR.

>> No.31930029

Belkar is going to stand next to him blabbering the entire time isn't he?

>> No.31930131

I seriously doubt that SKR reads /tg/. He quit Paizo recently as well.

>> No.31930150

>Aren't those the parts you don't have to watch?
That got a chuckle out of me, I admit. I think I'm starting to get used to the flesh colored-hands.

>> No.31930177

I just realized everyone has arms now.

Like, Arm arms, not sticks.

>> No.31930215

Damnit, I hadn't noticed them until you mentioned them. So yeah, me too I guess.

>> No.31930274

Holy shit, they do.

>> No.31930313

Its still sad really.

What's the point of +10 STR fighter if the most you could do with it is chuck a mountain at someone.

While the wizard at a lower level can destroy the world with the right optimization.

>> No.31930321


>articulated shoes
>belkar's unyeilding pizza feet

>> No.31930367

But with the hyper-specialization, the wizard loses it's greatest aspect. It's utility. All it can do is explode things. While a fighter is also geared to something similar, which is hurting things, a high strength can be used in all sorts of situations. Need to move some rubble? Strength can clear it while exploding it only makes smaller rubble. Need to pry open a door? Sure you could explode it and waste your planet-boom resources, or strength it for no cost. Need to climb a wall? Well all your spells are prepared for exploding things and exploding things that didn't go the first way around. But the fighter can just climb no big deal. A DM who doesn't give the fighter /some/ times to shine doesn't mean that wizards are the only viable class. This criticism always pisses me off.

>> No.31930385

>has ranks in engineer
>has a high intelligence
>reduced to holding a rope

>> No.31930411


Well, duh.

I've never understood the idiots who argue otherwise. What kind of person do you have to be to take a guy who can, say, jump up a city wall, slaughter the entire garrison and finally kick down the main gates, point to him and call the dude "mundane". Or the guy who can kill a dragon in one blow. Or the guy who can benchpress a small mountain. Or the dude who can accomplish any other blatantly impossible feat.

Fucken morons, that's what,

>> No.31930418

No, no... ranks in Architecture.
There's a difference.
moving parts aren't involved.

>> No.31930424

To be fair, he's effortlessly holding a rope with a single hand that it took two crewmembers to restrain with their entire strength.

>> No.31930425

It's like today world of work.

>> No.31930436

I wonder if Belkar is going to notice the allusion to his death date or if he'll just assume it's another empty threat. This won't be the first time he's mentioned Belkar's inevitable demise.

>> No.31930444


And then the both of them meet up, and the Wizard totally chumps the fighty guy and robs him of his lunch money.

I think the answer is that the designers of 3.x were a buncha nerds and Caster Supremacy is some weird revenge fantasy taken way, way too far.

>> No.31930485

I dunno. I think part of the problem is that we assume the Wizard is going to go full blown munchkin and optimize as much as possible while simultaneously exploiting every poorly worded phrase he can. We also assume this will be a single fight with both parties at their freshest and nothing else to threaten them.

Wizards, and casters in general, are too strong and Fighters, and non-casters in general, are too weak, but it gets overblown.

Also, earlier editions made it so that Wizards would probably die before they could even cast fireball. Being more robust, Fighters could make it to higher levels more reliably.

>> No.31930504

problem is people thinking that because someone is a wizard they automatically must be better at everything than any other class

>> No.31930520


>> No.31930529

Yes, and when you point out the flaws in their argument they call you stupid and ignorant.

>> No.31930546

>Heroic strength that allows you to do things that are literally physically impossible
>In fantasy settings, no less

Yeah, I totally don't buy this kind of concept, definitely.

Also I'd find OOTS more entertaining if its delivery wasn't akin to trying to find one typo in an entire dictionary for shits and giggles.

Must be an American airship.

>> No.31930561


Basically it boils down to Wizards CAN be supremely overpowered. It doesn't mean the wizard will be.

>> No.31930567

Fighters and related martials aren't just weak, they're also incredibly boring and stifle creative solutions by giving no tools that other classes do not give in better, larger amounts.

>> No.31930584


Nah, you don't need to go full munchkin in order to get Save or Suck spells to work with some reliability.

The real problem is that you actually don't need munchkining to get a broken caster build. if it were just the powergamers then it would be one thing and easily manageable by not playing with the fuckers, but I've seen far too many new groups (and even some advanced ones) get into trouble because one guy wanted to try something he thought sounded cool and then the rest of the party ended up playing second fiddle.

>> No.31930592

It makes sense though, doesn't it? The idea that a character that can do magic is more powerful than a guy who can't do magic. There's something immediately "logical" and "sensible" about that, if you were imagining characters outside an RPG context.

Personally, I'd be happy to play an RPG where having magical talent made you better than people who didn't have it. It'd just need to be balanced for that, rather than be written by the same people who think you can't roleplay and care about your character build at the same time.

Example: the /tg/ parody of SKR (I've never read anything he's written directly) would probably be completely happy with a DnD where Fighter is a 5 level class. You have 5 levels in Fighter, and you're the equivalent to the mightiest mundane warriors ever to live. Every level you take beyond that point has to be in a prestige class that boosts a character's competence based on magic.

Any thoughts?

>> No.31930599

What are you saying? Physically impossible things aren't supernatural and this is even more obvious in a fantasy setting?
Because that's what it looks like you're implying with the greentext there.

>> No.31930607



>> No.31930613

I played in a game once where I played a minmaxed as fuck strength guy. Albeit this wasn't any form of DnD and the caster system was insanely complicated (it was world-breakingly good, however to get to the point of world breaking you had to be pretty proficient in the GM's made up coding language which no one in the group cared enough to learn to a significant degree. Which paralleled most of the in game universe where there was a handful of people who dedicated their lives to learning the language and then learning to use spell components and verbalize in the correct syntax all from memory without any debugger since a little mistake would probably kill you).

Anyways, tons of fun. He could was a walking trebuchet, give him a hefty rock and he could fling it a mile. Then the alchemist invented rudimentary grenades for him to throw. He had a longbow that had an obscene draw weight (something close to 300lbs).

Generally he was so strong he'd just stronk around puzzles. Like a massive chasm we once faced. Intended was we'd have to make a deal with a druid for him to get us across but I just pulled back my bow and stuck the arrow into the earth on the other side. Repeated it, secured the ropes on this side and we spent the next couple days making a rope bridge in a similar fashion.

A real shame more systems don't have HUGE STRENGTH = HUGE BOWS, being a walking siege engine mongol orc is an amazing thing.

>> No.31930633

That's because you only think of magic as flying castle megapowers.
Magic can be literally anything. It doesn't feel logical and sensible that someone with the ability to sense what an animal is doing could beat hercules.

>> No.31930639

Call it poorly-executed sarcasm. Alternatively, "Okay, fine."

>> No.31930648

This just in, Fighters have always been cool! Just in a not-really-that-cool-but-you-still-call-it-cool-because-you-don't-want-to-hurt-someone's-feelings way.

>> No.31930660

but if it's physically impossible it's undeniable it's supernatural
how can you even be sarcastic about that

>> No.31930696

>how can you even be sarcastic about that

Because bitch I do what I want.

>> No.31930732

Wait, this is a dirigible. Why would losing the engines do anything except make the ship drift aimlessly?

>> No.31930742


It's completely absurd to say that the guy who can lift a mountain and punch out dragons isn't magic. How the fuck isn't that breaking the laws of physics just as much as some dude in a bathrobe throwing around fireballs?

>> No.31930752

The same way monks can do all that shit.


Except, mechanically DnD monks are shit.

>> No.31930763

Shit, you're right. This is a total affront to a patchy stick figure fantasy webcomic that spews more words than a first-time wikipedia edit by a teenager. Someone should cross Burlew's horde of drooling over-analytical sycophants and let him know about this technological inaccuracy.

>> No.31930789

Probably because they're in the middle of a lightning storm?

>> No.31930791


And how's that not magic? Willpower in reality doesn't let you become Kenshiro.

What you're doing here is to make some arbitrary divide between clearly supernatural and clearly supernatural because you only want to call one of these magic, and claim that this clearly sipernatural thing should be better than the other clearly supernatural thing by default. How does this make sense on any level?

>> No.31930858


but fighters shouldn't be able to do all that.
It's unrealistic.

>> No.31930888


Good one, man. I got a chuckle out of it.

>> No.31931094

You're using a broad, non-setting specific definition of magic. But in the context we're talking about, being superhuman doesn't mean that you're magical. You can't cast "dispel magic" on Heracles to take away his strength, or "detect magic" to find him. Heracles isn't a practitioner of the dark arts. He's not casting spells, and he's not enchanted. He's merely superhuman. And in order to stay relevant in a game where wizards attain ridiculous levels of power, you need warrior-types to be similarly superhuman at high level.

>> No.31931103

Everything must be totally realistic, that's why there are dragons and sorcerers who can shoot heat rays out their asses in the first place.

>> No.31931104

Is everyone fucking blind? Pay attention to the world around you a little bit more

Or rest and recover your wisdom score

>> No.31931110

Also, you can't be too scientific about pseudo-Medieval high fantasy.

>> No.31931235


>And in order to stay relevant in a game where wizards attain ridiculous levels of power, you need warrior-types to be similarly superhuman at high level.

Man, my entire point was arguing against someone who thought that casters should be superior just because.

Also your entire point would be more convincing if we weren't discussing a system where the fighty types already cease to be relevant when you get high enough in the power levels. "Not being magic" is obivously not the solution of the problem, then.

>> No.31931287


dragons and sorcerers are okay.
Fighter is a class whose main draw is that he's realistic.
And historical soldiers didn't do all that.

>> No.31931349

>Fighter is a class whose main draw is that he's realistic.
>And historical soldiers didn't do all that

Have you read the D&D flavor texts?
Fighters at mid-levels count as paragons and warchiefs.

At high levels, they emulate demi-gods in feats of strength like Hercules and Thor.

>> No.31932458

I like swords.

>> No.31932473

Warriors = historical soldiers
Fighters = legendary soldiers

>> No.31932487

I think Belkar just doesn't care or is chalking it up to another death threat he's recieved

>> No.31932866

I think caster supremacy is just a natural consequence of the nature of casses. When you have one class whose entire role is "hit things very hard" and another that has access to laods of magic spells, you're goign to have a hard time balancing them. Even if Fighting Man does far more damage than Magic Man, Magci Man still has far more utility in anything that doesn't involve hitting things (and sometimes even then; even if Fighting Man can kill the enemy in less hits, Magic Man can use magic to disable or weaken them). Even if Fighting Man automatically wins a fight against Magic Man, Magic Mna will still have more utility and Fighting Man is reduced to something you keep around in case you run into enemy magic users.

>> No.31932930

How can it be a natural consequence if every step of the way is carefully written down? It has to be intended.
You can't accidentally make a class the only one with utility. It's only part of a a class system if you purposefully put it in.

>> No.31933298

>> No.31933341

Why did Fuckface McFullofhimself ever think that drawing the arms like that was ever a good idea?

>> No.31933404

Because if he draws them that way the update cycle is slowed down and he can keep this comic going forever without resorting to stretching out the story arcs like he did with the Tarquin fight.

>> No.31933715


>It makes sense though, doesn't it? The idea that a character that can do magic is more powerful than a guy who can't do magic. There's something immediately "logical" and "sensible" about that

I want you to take a moment to consider what the term "Extraordinary" means in the context of D&D.

Actually, I'll spoil it for you. It means that even non-magical characters and creatures can be capable of completely impossible bullshit. They are explicitly stated to be able to take the laws of physics out back and make them their bitch.

So why is this not capitalized on more?

>> No.31933749


>When you have one class whose entire role is "hit things very hard" and another that has access to laods of magic spells, you're goign to have a hard time balancing them.

Maybe they shouldn't have made a class whose entire role is JUST "hit things very hard", or at least have given them maximum versatility when it comes to mastering the battlefield.

>> No.31933775

Welcome to Corneria

>> No.31933929

But the Tarquin fight was awesome.

>> No.31934950

Hey look, it's Roy drifting toward neutral again. By the end of the comic, this will be an all-evil party ready to start a new campaign.

>> No.31935330

Except Belkar
He'll shift into good

>> No.31935375

And Elan will remain at his current alignment, but he'll be too dumb to notice the other alignment shifts.

>> No.31935463

Nah. Elan will go True Neutral to maintain the balance between the twins.

>> No.31935479

Isn't that pretty much what Exalted is?

>> No.31935803

Technically fighters can't lift mountains.
A 30 str fighter (an orc fighter with +10 str~) can only lift 1600lbs over their head (and waddle around with 3200)
Mind you, the world record for such a lift is just under 1200lbs, which puts the strongest man in the world at ~28 str. So even a +10 str human fighter isn't magical in the lifting department.

>> No.31935859

Given that strength needed for weightlifting isn't universal I'd say he has a few strength points less with a few homebrew feats

>> No.31936235

>Fighter is a class whose main draw is that he's realistic.
At level 1-5, sure. At high levels, the main draw is he's motherfucking Hercules.

>> No.31936275

No. In Exalted you still just fight (without magic) you just fight really really well.

>> No.31936643

>> No.31936677

>OotS is awful

>> No.31937000

>Both of you sing
>"No singing"

>> No.31939335

I... I don't get the "inflammable" joke, somebody pls

>> No.31939369

'flammable' and 'inflammable' mean the same thing.
Normally, 'in' is a prefix that negates. Edible, inedible.

There. Explained.
It's dead now.

>> No.31939388

Thanks, sorry I ruined it for you

>> No.31939389

This. What a crap comic.

>> No.31939470

You finally finished reading the thread, good for you 10 words per minute anon.

>> No.31939559

something I always wondered about the "wizards should be overpowered because its realistic" folks

wouldn't it also be realistic then for wizards the never get even a single HP increase? For Fighters it makes sense since they're training themselves by battling creatures, learning to block blows, resist pain, fight through burns and stuff like that but wizards?, all they do is study. Heck they shouldn't even be getting experience from fighting things because their power comes directly from studying stuff.

if we want to be "truly" realistic a wizard without any defensive spells up should be easier to kill than a commoner because at least the commoner hasn't led a sheltered life

>> No.31939728

>wouldn't it also be realistic then for wizards the never get even a single HP increase?
Abstracted passive magical defenses

>Heck they shouldn't even be getting experience from fighting things because their power comes directly from studying stuff.
Applying theory is just as educational as reading it, if not moreso.

A wizard *should* be a frail human if stripped of magic, but how often does that actually happen

>> No.31939780

I think the biggest failing of the "realism" of 3.X is how high-level fighters are still shit at dealing with traps and obstacles like they haven't been that crap for like 15 levels now.

>> No.31939791

>Abstracted passive magical defenses
except in say D&D that is decidedly not how magic works
>Applying theory is just as educational as reading it, if not moreso.
applying a theory makes you better at applying said theory, it does not allow you to make new theories easily. So yes wizards should become better at doing the magic they already know but realistically speaking they should not become capable of new magic

then there's also the problem of wizards getting better reaction times despite not training their bodies and stuff like that

>> No.31939809

>Abstracted passive magical defenses

nigga magic can't give you permanent HP
That's divine levels of magic.

>> No.31939843

also I'd say for pure martial classes physical stats should increase a lot faster

yeh you'd end up with absurdly high strenght and con eventually but isn't that the point? Hercules is one of the martial paragons and he held up the entire earth

>> No.31939853

That's because Fighter has issues beyond having no spells- the class has abysmal skill points, a laughable selection of class skills, and an obscene number of dead levels. Other Martials- Rogue, Scout, low Wis Ranger, Barbarian- are significantly better and have more options in and out of combat.

>> No.31939865

>implying HP is only physical toughness and not increased luck and awareness too
Do I need to post that AD&D sidebar about this?

>> No.31939867

it could be active spells, but basically every wizard even trying to go adventing should dedicated a crapton of spells just to be able to live a single day and hope they don't get dispelled somehow

>> No.31939891

even then it increases to much for a wizard

unless you're going to argue somehow that a wizard should have better reflexes than a fighter

>> No.31939919

With magic, motherfucker.

>> No.31939935

so then they shouldn't have passive HP's that high and instead have to cast "superior reflexes" every single time they go adventuring to get some hp

which also gets automatically disabled inside an anti-magic field and can be dispelled

>> No.31939951

I think the problem with D&D is that it is so abstracted and 'balanced' that the stats are practically meaningless and actually correlating between real concepts and in game stats is nearly impossible.

>> No.31939970

>he didn't get the joke

>> No.31941063

You're right there, aside from the fact that nothing is actually balanced. Nothing in D&D, especially 3.5, correlates to anything logical in the real world.

I mean, by RAW, a low to mid level cleric would have a very difficult time identifying their own god if it appeared in front of them.

>> No.31941247

Y'know, rich should write one entire strip with no use of the letter "d". That would screw Thog right over.

>> No.31941248

>I seriously doubt that SKR reads

>> No.31941500

I meant that more in the sense that everything tries to be balanced, which means they muck things up in an attempt to equalize everything, which they fail at anyway.

>> No.31942802

Thog edit when? It's my favorite part of every strip, we even have 10 WPM anon here already.

>> No.31945806

fighters can't do any of those things anon. casters can.
I am not saying fighters SHOULDN'T be able to. I am saying they CAN'T according to the rules are written.
I do agree that those saying fighters shouldn't be able to are spergs.

Although a big issue is that the fighter's description insists that are total mundanes.
dnd has actual muscle wizards, as do other systems. You can play a bruiser in mutants and masterminds or gurps, you can play a supernatural fighter in exalted or nobilis.
But in dnd CORE RAW there is this odd mix of the pathetically underpowered and over powered. It would be like playing a mortal in nobilis or exalted. Like playing a muggle in harry potter. Like playing a guy without superpowers in a super's game

>> No.31945851

>Like playing a guy without superpowers in a super's game
Huh. I was under the impression that in a lot of supers games Batman-like characters work alright.

>> No.31945874

batman has super intellect, money, and technology.
also, batman is fighting muggles in his own universe not fighting galacticus alongside superman

>> No.31945888

>not having superpowers
>except that arbitrarily-large amount of money, an impossible level of training at every human endeavor, a big fucking pile of fictional technology

Just because they don't come out of his eyeballs doesn't mean they aren't superpowers.

>> No.31945913

Sounds like a high-level Rogue to me.

>> No.31945914

you mean the batsuit isn't standard issue for every soldier in the army?

>> No.31945940

>While the wizard at a lower level can destroy the world with the right optimization.

If you use obscure, irritating exploits and use a hypocritical combination of RAW and RAI, sure.

>> No.31945970

>Sounds like a high-level Rogue to me.
no, no it isn't. The high level rogue is pathetic and has none of these things.
The high level rogue has exactly WBL like every other character.
>impossible training level
worse than any of the martial classes in terms of fighting. and his varied skills are obsoleted by magic.
>big pile of fictional super tech
tech in dnd is magic item. rogue has less of that than any caster in the party.
there is a reason why a min maxed wizard is called the batman wizard.

>> No.31946018

well, he said lower level than a +10 str fighter. that is, before the fighter has a str of 30.
+6 is max item bonus, +5 is max bonus from tomes/wishes, +5 is max bonus from levelup (level 20). So unless the fighter started out with str 20 he will not get to str 30 until late in the game.

>> No.31946043

Oh, right. I forgot for a moment that we were talking about what the RAW is and not what classes should be able to do. I firmly believe that high level rogues SHOULD be able to be Batman, but yeah they aren't in 3.5.

>> No.31946107

>I firmly believe that high level rogues SHOULD be able to be Batman, but yeah they aren't in 3.5.
ah, we are in total agreement than :).
Speaking of what should be...
high level fighter?

>> No.31946145


yeah, no. There's a class for if you want to be able to perform godly feats and hit things with blunt weapons.

>> No.31946319

>Dumps of dosh is a superpower

>> No.31946350

people tend to gloss over the part where "earned all that money with his super intelligence, which also makes him a super detective, super good at martial arts, and super inventor who has access to super technology nobody else does"

>> No.31946409

All the thogs but me seem to be gone. I'll make one tomorrow, sleep time is now.

>> No.31946435

Earned his money? He was born into like the 2nd richest family in gotham.

>> No.31946457

Add to this Batman also cheats in general often being hyper prepared and somehow managing to survive god level monsters smacking him around. He has plot armor like no other.

>> No.31946465

He did it first.

>> No.31946473

>That "punchline"

Why does this comic get posted all the time? It's awful.

>> No.31946487

He didn't earn all that money. His dad was a doctor/philanthropist/inventor/businessman.

>> No.31946503

that varies based on the reboot.

>> No.31946583

...I like swords.

>> No.31947087

Not thog (Also not Not-Thog), here is my attempt at a Thog edit.

>> No.31947143

This. Plus his "Predicting" people is so bullshit that I think it is better than actual precognitive powers/

>> No.31947442

maybe he has a belt of holding...

>> No.31948104

Dick Joke/10
Try harder

>> No.31948540

>doing hp damage
that is literally the problem with 3e, fireball and all other sources of hp damage got stealth-nerfed into the ground.

>the Wizard is going to go full blown munchkin and optimize
the problem is that this can be done entirely by accident and is as easy as some new player picking the options that look interesting, not even trying. now give that player another class. of course, with casters, even if they don't accidentally into op they can respec large parts of their character more or less at will, unlike mere mortal classes.

jesus christ, so many words, why did I ever enjoy oots again? at least the prequel thing he did had a funny stargate sg-1 joke.

>> No.31948640

I think ridiculous over-the-top shit like this actually makes them less cool
Not the fact that they can destroy buildings but that they're flying while doing it and jumping around like that. With high level comes a developed technique as well, a lot of their capabilities should come from good fight choreography not just raw strength

>> No.31949374

New players typically don't play Wizards, or indeed any casters at all
>bawwww it's too hard to keep track of spells
>bawwwww I just want to pretend to be William Shatner
>bawwww why can't my Bard roundhouse kick everything with a 100% chance of success

>> No.31949581

>New players typically don't play Wizards, or indeed any casters at all
bullshit, a lot of new players do because it sounds cool.
And they either accidentally trip into a trap build, or a god build.
And then there are things you actually CAN'T mess up like cleric and druid. who will always obsolete the shit classes like monk or rogue or fighter

>> No.31949631

>New players typically don't play Wizards, or indeed any casters at all
Oh please, Wizards/casters are some of the most popular classes arguably. Heck, I'm an example. Didn't know they were broken, more often than not play casters primarily wizards, bards, clerics, or sorcerers.

>> No.31949709

my first time was also a wizard. didn't know they were broken

>> No.31949714

Nobody in any group I've played with has any idea how to play casting classes, and just plays Sorcerers like fireball cannons and Clerics like bandaid healbots
We banned Druids years ago because they quickly trivialize everything even without spells, thank you Wild Shape + Animal Companion
Your players can keep track of things that aren't the number of potions they have in their inventory, I envy you

>> No.31949790

>Nobody in any group I've played with has any idea how to play casting classes, and just plays Sorcerers like fireball cannons
that can happen, but they were just as liable to accidentally become game breakers by taking the right spell based on cool factor alone.
That or they do know and intentionally nerf themselves into something not broken

>Clerics like bandaid healbots
Still better than a fighter. I am a bit amazed they never cast any spell other than healing though.

>We banned Druids years ago because they quickly trivialize everything even without spells, thank you Wild Shape + Animal Companion
Yes, you can't not trivialize martials with a druid. Also, in addition to wild shape and animal companion, druids get the ability to spontanously convert any spell they cast into a summon natures ally.
So you get to be a bear, with a bear animal companion, and then cast a spell to summoned 1d3 bears every round. (bear is really sub par compared to some of the other choices, but still really powerful)

>> No.31949803

ThoG here, but ThoG currently going through worst part of the year at fancy talky school.

ThoG start posting edits again eventually.

>> No.31949834

Necromancers and evokers are pretty popular choices, and they aren't broken at all.

>> No.31950023

>Not broken
bitch, you are tripping fucking balls here. Necromancers are ridiculously overpowered.

note: levels are for spell levels
Level 1:
no save, just lose 1d6+1/2CL strength. Easy way to take out a boss. Also, encumbrance
will save or be out of combat for 1d4 rounds
Level 2:
save or lose
dominate, but instead of being a level 9 spell its level 2, it can only affect undead, it cannot ever fail to affect a target, nonsapient undead do anything you want, sapient undead get a will save to refuse commiting suicide/something it is very much opposed to, no save for any other command you wish to give them. Enjoy walking around with a stable of disposable minions.
save or lose
multiple targets must save or be out of combat for a while
turns touch attack into ranged tough attacks, so you can annihilate enemies without stepping into melee.
Level 3:
save or lose for undead enemies
save or take -6 str and -6 dex and move at half speed.

Level 4:
boss just lost 1 to 4 levels with no save.
like leadership, only better
save or suck, stackable
save or large ability score damage
save or lose

it goes on like that

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