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[ERROR] No.31836706 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

What would be justifiable reasons for the governing body of a planet from keeping the general populous in the dark about alien races and shit?

I mean, in Stargate they go through so much shit without people ever catching on. What the fuck.

>> No.31840702

>>31836706
>"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."

>> No.31840747

>>31836706
Using the Stargate reference, would you really want to know that the world has nearly ended every other week because the military keeps fucking around with alien warlords?

>> No.31840812

People run around setting buses on fire when their sports team of choice wins an important game. WINS.

>> No.31840877

>>31836706
From the top of my head:
>mass panic (the aliens are out there, and they came to visit us, and we can't do nothing to them)
>massive drop in trust towards the officials (the government lied about this, who knows what else are they hiding from us)
>riots (they are controlling us through the puppet masters, down with the government)
>religious crisis (you said God only made humans, explain this shit)
>formation of new and possibly dangerous movements (the aliens are true gods, behead those that insult Cthulhu)
>movements that require the government to reveal all their secrets (do you have Hitler's brain stored somewhere)
>boost in the government-independent scientific sector (similar to the space race, but this time the researchers are working together from across the globe)
You withhold information only if knowing it will lead to humans harming other humans. So, aliens themselves aren't such a threat to you as another bloke that's angry about them.

>> No.31840956

I think a better question is HOW a government could keep such an enormous secret. Someone always talks. Always. The NSA couldn't keep one faggot from posting their shit online but there is some kind of super efficient inter-agency and international body that not only keeps aliens under wraps but never lets anyone have any credible evidence anywhere on Earth, ever?

>> No.31841024

>>31840747
So instead of making the public and politicians aware, and allocating proper funding and research into the problem, we just hush it up and hope a small group of operators can handle it time and time again?

>>31840812
Because they have vested interest in the event. You think if they came out and said "we just made cold fusion a reality and plans for the first working reactor starts next week", majority of the population would even bat an eye?

Douglas Adams put it nicely in one of the Hitchhiker books, where the first alien encounter was all "Wow, WTF, m8?!" The second one was "Another one?!" and the third barely made it to local news.

>> No.31841065

>>31840956
One way I could think of is if they decide to let the secret out, but first they let Hollywood and the mass media through it. So make a ton of movies about them, have shitty newspapers write about rednecks seeing them and so on.
After some time, everyone openly speaking about aliens coming to Earth will be ridiculed and dismissed as a fool. Meanwhile, all the MIBs working around in plain sight just help with perpetuating the mythos about aliens coming to visit us and so on.

>> No.31841093

>>31840956
>implying Snowden wasn't a ploy to draw attention away from the real issues
>implying Russia and Putin aren't in on it
>implying YOU aren't in on it...

I'm on to you, "Anonymous," if that is your real name, you can't fool me. You're all in on it!

>> No.31841156

>>31841065

In the 50's, yes. In modern day? With everyone carrying cell phone cameras, and car dash cams, and street cams, and the internet? No.

Unless the MiB have some kind of advanced technology in which case why even bother just say "it's space magic, I ain't gotta explain shit"

>> No.31841551

>>31841024
> So instead of making the public and politicians aware, and allocating proper funding and research into the problem, we just hush it up and hope a small group of operators can handle it time and time again?
They talk about exactly this in a couple of the episodes.
And you know, their way fucking works. They can handle it time and time again, they have multiple elite teams and shit. Not to mention all the friendly aliens they meet, or how the Asgards won't deal with anyone who hasn't earned O'neil's trust.

Oh and, they also have proper funds and stuff, you know? They never bitch about not having enough. And Area 51 participates in the research on alien things.

>> No.31841636

>>31841156
Honestly depends on what quality of shots are taken. Most of those "alien sightings" on YouTube and the net are shit quality.
But yeah, it'd be a bitch in modern day.

Unless the government already made deals with the aliens to meet at empty areas in the middle of nowhere.
Or only they have the technology to notice them - an amateur photograph won't notice a ship that's hiding behind the moon or something.

>> No.31841707

>>31841551
Protip: It's a TV show, the writers can make anything work.

Now imagine if they had industrial capability to mass-produce alien weapons and fighters. You wouldn't have to rely on some special operators to come up with the solution on the last second and save the day. You could have standing military forces defending Earth. Put outposts on the outskirts of the solar system, early warning satellites, give the aliens a run for their money, instead of relying on the kindness of aliens.

What makes O'neil a measure of character? Why does he get to decide who the Asgardians get to deal with and who they don't. What is this, the Best Korea, where you are not allowed to have a talk with someone until Great Leader gives the ok? Asgardians are like little kids who need daddy's permission to go out and play, instead of making up their own mind.

>> No.31841847

>>31841707
Protip : it's a game, OP can make anything work.

> Now imagine if they had industrial capability to mass-produce alien weapons and fighters.
Mate, have you watched the show? They did. The built half a dozen big ships and hundreds fighters. Late in the show, Russia even has its own, and IIRC they mention other allies building theirs. (In SG, that means Great Britain, France and China.)

> You could have standing military forces defending Earth.
They did, they had the Lanthian outpost in Antarctica.

> early warning satellites
Subspace tracking space magics, they're not needed.

> What makes O'neil a measure of character? Why does he get to decide who the Asgardians get to deal with and who they don't.
But he didn't decide this. It's Thor who made the choice himself, because O'neil (rightfully) didn't trust the NID to handle the Stargate program. (NID is sort of secret intelligence agency, but it was pretty rotten for a couple seasons, in one of the episode with clips from previous episodes, some character tries to have the Stargate program taken out of the fine General Hammond's hands and handed to the NID)

>> No.31841968

>>31841847
>They did.

Pretty late. Imagine if they could work in the open without having to hide everything. Imagine if they could have more than one secret base.

Seriously, for several countries to have their own secret alien tech fleets and armed forces, there's millions of people who have to have some idea what's going on. And none of them are freaking out all the time. So how exactly do they justify keeping it a secret anymore else?

>Subspace tracking space magics

So that stuff can track all subspace traffic everywhere, or what? Because surely it has a range on it, and putting satellites out there would extend that range and give earlier warning. If it works across the universe, why aren't they tracking all alien ships all the time?

>Thor who made the choice himself

Still, the aliens decided "we're gonna listen to this dude, and this dude alone". Imagine if one nation refused to have any diplomatic relations, except for one dude, who'd get to decide what's cool and what's not. Imagine if O'neil is wrong or lets petty things get in the way. Now an entire civilization doesn't trust you, because this one dude doesn't like you.

Also, the NID were cartoon villains.

>> No.31843703

>>31836706
Atomic Rockets has a great piece on this

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/aliens.php

Scroll down to: "The Killing Star"

tl:dr is as follows

It is SUPER easy to just accelerate a kinetic projectile up to relativistic speeds and 1 hit ko a planet without them even knowing they are under attack until like 30 seconds before their planet becomes dust.

At least one race is going to figure that if they are to have a shot at survival, they need to do this to any race they detect unless that race does the same to them first, since detection of possessing these weapons is impossible, and they are cheap.

It is very possibly in our best interest to force a worldwide blackout of any transmissions that may radiate into space, and to keep everyone in the dark about detections to avoid any idiot with a transmitter from beaming a transmission to them, thus revealing our location.

At least until we have observed the universe for at least 50,000 years to ensure any detected races don't fire on any other detected races.

To me, this is the most likely explanation of the FERMI paradox.

>> No.31843863

>>31843703
> Communicate with aliens from a space station in deep space so it will be located instead of Earth.
> You can now try diplomacy before every one blowing up things.
> Problem solved.

Also, it's far too late for that now. Like, a century late.

>> No.31844068

>>31843863
It takes literally twice as long to send a message and hear back as it does to send a one way message (aka missile).
All it takes is for one single race to determine its not worth the risk, and assume a hostile until determined friendly stance, and its all over for everyone.

I appreciate what you are trying to say, but consider space is 3D, and all the stars are in orbit around the center of the galaxy at different rates. That presents 3 problems.

1. There is no way to determine where 'halfway' is until detection.
2. It would take at least 6 stations to surround our solar system, and that would be very poor coverage.
3. Due to them being at different distances to the galactic core, their orbits would very quickly have them leave us, either going to fast around the galaxy or too slow.

Further, even if a race did detect our station, and diplomacy happened, it would be hundreds of years at best for even 2 way communication to occur. Maybe thousands for a conversation.
It is logical to assume no race is going to have that much faith in the governance of another race to literally never let the missile fly.

Also much of our broadcasts were done on very shitty equipment. There is a good chance it wont get out very far at all.

>> No.31844557

>>31843703
>>31844068
That's a VERY simplified look on things.

Reminds me of the old "Fuck You, Buddy" game, where the idea is that as long as every player only things of themselves and their interests, and assume everyone else is doing the same, everything will be in balance. And in theory it was so. But when ever they tried it on players, they didn't follow the game's logic and everything went to shit.

Also, how exactly are you going to see the idea to an entire nation, because for people to buy the threat, they'd have to have more than just theories. You can't just say "It's possible there's aliens and it's possible they would nuke us all without us even knowing about it, so we have to be extra careful and limit the use of all this stuff, so they might not come across us." That's assuming they utilize the same types of detection as we do.

Also, assuming we're talking about planet to planet shooting here, doesn't that acquire like insane computing to have a kinetic projectile going at planet cracking speeds across light years and hitting a specific planetary object past all possible obstacles and gravity wells. And circling all those and shit would mean it's not gunning straight at us at near-light speeds, making detection way easier. And if they do make it fly straight at us with engines of its own, you know how much fuel you'd have to put on that thing to negate all the gravitational pull and just fly in a straight line right at us?

You'd think 30 seconds is enough for automated defence systems to detect an incoming threat and counter it or alter its course enough. Hell, what if the race in question has colonies on other planets, they wouldn't be wiped out. Or if they don't have the capability, they can have orbital stations within their solar system acting as a deterrent to anyone wiping out their planet. So even if you destroy it, you'll get a face full of kinetic projectiles yourself.

>> No.31844863

>>31844557
You should really read the article I posted. No shit its simplified, what I wrote is the 'too long, didnt read' version.

How you sell the idea isn't my problem. OP asked for a justifiable reason to hide alien detection from the public.
This is a damn fine reason. Especially if we detected a planet killing race in the act.

No, it does not require advanced computing to calculate the trajectory, so long as you have adequately mapped your stellar neighbourhood. All other gravitational forces are negligible.

I'm not trying to be rude, but you obviously don't have a great grasp of astrophysics.
Relativistic velocities are near the speed of light. Detection is not possible until the light reaches your detection device.
You will only see the weapon moments before its impact on your planet.

Its like a bullet traveling at the speed of sound. The sound will hit your ear at the same moment the bullet does.

The kinetic energy of the weapon is so high, that at even 30% the speed of light the American space shuttle would take the entire nuclear arsenal detonating against it simultaneously to change its course.

Detection is irrelevant 98% Speed of light weapons can neither be detected, nor intercepted.

The only possible defence is as you say, you either shoot first, or disperse into multiple colonies, and leave planets for good.

Since Earth is a planet, it makes sense for a secret government to limit radio till colonies can constructed and launched, or peace is determined

>> No.31844947

>>31844863
Remember we're talking 98 percent the speed of light, from MANY lightyears out. If they fire it from a star 50 light years away (Pretty damn close in stellar terms), at 98 percent the speed of light, we'll get about half a year's warning before impact. From greater distances it's even more than that. Now granted, it doesn't give us any ability to STOP the thing, but you're imagining space as quite a bit smaller than it is if you think an object moving 98% the speed of light is undetectable until JUST before it hits us.

>> No.31844966

>>31844863
That is, the ENTIRE *GLOBAL* nuclear arsenal.

You accelerate the same volume of tungsten or lead, and interception is not possible.

The most you could hope for is to splinter the object, and that ain't gonna do shit.

See, the problem is you have to get your shit up to relativistic velocities just to intercept it. In 30 seconds, it just isn't going to happen.
If you had that much energy available to you, you would be interstellar.

And if you are interstellar, you are probably the asshole throwing these weapons around

>> No.31845063

>>31844947
Detection is more than knowing its been fired. With much more advanced detection technology you may very well know you have been fired at. Possibly.

But light speed lag on relativistic objects means that wherever you see the object, thats not where it is.
This both completely fucks your ability to accurately describe its exact speed, nor is exact location.

Both are needed for a targeting solution for interception. Which is more the detection i'm talking about. Both detecting you have been fired upon (orders of magnitudes greater detection equipment required than what we have) and detecting its current location and velocity.

And again, even if you were to magically overcome the light speed lag effect, interception is not possible so its an academic discussion.

My point remains, you would not get any accurate data until maybe 30 seconds from impact. Maybe a day with magically advanced tech.
Not enough time to make a difference.

>> No.31845110

>>31845063
>>31844947

Oh, also, to hit an exoplanet from a distance of tens to hundreds of lightyears, especially a small one like Earth, is an insane challenge.

The way Nasa can make approaches to tiny objects from great distances like landing on asteroids (incidentally, a much bigger Target area to distance ratio than a rocky exoplanet to interstellar distance) is by getting it about right then making repeated corrections on approach to change the trajectory until it's right.

But at 98 percent the speed of light, you need an ASSLOAD of energy to make those corrections fast enough to matter.

But ok, lets assume they can do that. By the time they're close enough to see that the corrections need to be made, the thing is already 40 lightyears into it's journey (A generous estimate), and it would take near 80 years for a correction signal to reach it.

Suddenly this is sounding less like a simple ballistic device and more like an AI controlled guided missile. It's less cheap to build, would need an absolutely ENOURMOUS amount of fuel on it, and a lightning fast AI capable of imaging rocky exoplanets from lightyears out.

This is not a cheap project.

Now, for a post singularity society, all bets are off for the realm of the possible, so it's all technically POSSIBLE for one, but cheap? No.

And light lag is pretty trivial to overcome. We do it all the time with the relativistic jets coming off of black holes.

>> No.31845200

>>31843703
>>31844068
>>31844557
>>31844863
>>31844947
>>31844966
>>31845063
>>31845110
Well gee thanks /tg/! Now I'm absolutely terrified at the thought of dying at any time because some asshole alien thinks "it's us or them".

>> No.31845224

>>31845200

Well I'm >>31844947 >>31845110 And my point was that It'd be near impossible for anything that hasn't broken physics over it's knee, and that even for them, It'd be insanely impractical.

By the time they could accomplish it, they would have literally no reason to worry about anything because they would need to be gods of technology to actually hit us.

>> No.31845231

>>31844863
>I'm not trying to be rude, but you obviously don't have a great grasp of astrophysics.

Neither do you, apparently, if you assume shit just flies in a straight line unaffected by everything.

At such distances, even a slight alteration in its path will throw it off insane distances. Not only does the thing have to pass gravity wells of stars and planets, but smaller objects as well, and avoid impact with all sorts of things. And if you calculate path that corrects itself, then you're not flying in a straight line, but curving and having each gravity well you encounter fix your trajectory so you hit home (just like they do with probes). And when you're not flying in a straight line, even if you're pulling 98% the speed of light, the time to the target increases and your speed relative to the target decreases as you bend around a planet to close in, giving them much more time to detect you. The projectile might be moving at 98% c, but it's not coming AT you at 98% c, because it's going around things, giving you more time to detect it.

If you, instead, fix the projectile with engines to fly to the target the straightest line, you need to be doing corrections to your flight, which means crazy amounts of fuel is needed.

>adequately mapped your stellar neighbourhood

You have any idea how big of an area that is? Like at all? It's not just that you know where all the stars and planets are (which we still don't), but there's a multitude of other factors from particles and asteroids to rogue planets, etc. Not to forget possible effects from other sources, like radiation and light. The Voyager probe has been slowing down for ages and recently scientists have theorized it's because it's expelling more heat from one side than the other, possibly in conjunction with friction from particles.

(cont.)

>> No.31845347

>>31845231
(cont.)

How exactly do you plan on mapping all that space, while also searching for other aliens AND keeping yourself hidden. If they find your probes, they'd know there's someone looking for them and would be extra careful. Maybe figure out where it came from or where it's sending its signals, and send a welcome present after them.

>>31845200
You're far more likely to die from a multitude of other things, so don't worry about it.

>> No.31845400

>>31845110
I'm sorry, you clearly have not read the information I posted, so there is no point arguing with you.

I will only say further that it doesn't matter what NASA can do. We don't need to be able to do it, they do. Thats all that matters.

Precision motors and an AI controller are not expensive. Not for a civilisation that harnesses even a fraction of the energy of its home star.

The reason course corrections are done is because of imprecise initial vectoring. Sufficient advance of rocket motor technology would render that obsolete.

>AI is expensive
Computer chips are expensive? O RLY?
What planet do you live on?

Remember, expensive is a relative term. A 60 million dollar fighter jet is not considered expensive.
And in terms of energy available to a civ and resources, relweps are dirt cheap.


>adequately mapped your stellar neighbourhood
What is million year old civilisation? What is automated telescopes?

End of the story is, if you think guidance is the biggest problem, you guarantee these things are out there. You only need to fire one every million years tops, and computers are REAL good at guidance.

>it's not coming AT you at 98% c, because it's going around things

And im done. It doesn't change shit. Same principle as a jet flying overhead. You still hear it from behind its actual location.
Light speed lag is like this, but even worse.

>probes
>mapping space
>With probes

GNight from Australia.

>> No.31845449

Why are people with a passing understanding of science always massive cunts to each other?

I mean this thread is one big tumor of passive aggressive piss.

>> No.31845511

>>31845449
because actual scientific knowledge requires work and people love being superior to others

>> No.31845574

>>31845449
Because there is no real knowledge about what we are talking about, theory and practice are 2 really different things.

Everything is pure speculation so far.

>> No.31845605

>>31845400
>It doesn't change shit.

If the projectile is bending past planets to correct for their gravitation, then it's not coming at you 98% c, while the light from it is coming you at c, meaning it gives you more time to detect it.

Also, shit analogy, since the jet is not flying above you, it's flying towards you, and it's not flying at super-sonic speeds, meaning the sound would reach you before the jet. As the jet banks around to come at you, the found of it has even more time to reach your ear before the jet itself does.

>> No.31845612

>>31845400
Tiny pebbles are also going to be punch giant holes in it moving at that speed.

>> No.31847419

>>31845612
They won't change the amount of energy delivered to the target by much, though.

>> No.31847476

>>31847419
What about direction? Over several light years, even a microscopic alteration to the course can throw it off greatly.

>> No.31847590

>>31847476
How are you detecting and engaging a relwep multiple lightyears out? In order to get a non-relativistic pebble to intercept a relwep even a single light year out would need dozens of years to prepare. And hitting the fucker would be next to impossible.

>> No.31850219

>>31845224
Isn't the same said about intersystem travel?

Like if a race could travel between star systems they wouldn't give five shits about what anyone could do, their tech would be to great anyway?

>> No.31850537

http://www.whale.to/b/BluePlanetProject.pdf

>> No.31850635

Control obviously. If you deny someone information then you keep him in the dark and you can do what ever you want.

>> No.31851440

Read Old Man's War. Humanity is a little fish in a big pond, and the space government basically uses Earth as a recruiting ground for soldiers and colonists. They don't want Earth to be discovered as their home planet, and they don't want people on earth to find out how fucked we are if they lose, so they keep people in the dark. That's one raisin.

>> No.31851925

>>31847590
I was assuming we were talking about just random space debris. Even if the pebble is stationary, the thing's coming at it 98% c, so doesn't it matter which one hits which?

Also, assuming you have the technology to detect and map star systems light years away (as >>31845400 make the civilization super advanced), then they'd probably would also be able to detect possible launches of such weapons (seeing that they're worried about it, they must know what to look out for). If you detect the launch 50 light years away, and the projectile comes at you at 0.98c, it should, if I'm not mistaken, give you a whopping year to formulate your countermeasure. And if you know where the launch occurred and the target, you should be very capable of computing its trajectory and deploy, say, obstacles in its path to intercept it or, say, launch a vessel on an intercept course that would circle around and intercept it, then, say, collide with it or try and nudge it enough to make it miss.

>> No.31852598

Heyya, Australia here again.

Just going to clear up a few misconceptions you guys have here.

1. I have a pretty advanced understanding of astrophysics, given I study it.
2. The problems with Detection are more about sorting and differentiating massive amounts of data, and having sensitive enough equipment to pick up a chunk of lead over the radiation of a star
3. The reason an accurate solution cannot be found is not a technological failing. It is a matter of how the universe works. More advanced detectors wont help you.

To expand point 3, the doppler effect is one of the main reasons you cannot get an accurate solution. Even if it was going almost exactly perpendicular to you, the 'almost' will lie to you about its exact velocity. The speed of light is the issue here.

You WILL NOT be able to overcome this until the object is very close to you.

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