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31201491 No.31201491 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Last time on Song of Swords: dirty Zell talk, creative farming solutions, semi-professional movie reviews >>31135410

Work is still ongoing and Opaque is apparently making good progress. Word is we might see some magical shenanigans in the next release.

Current Beta: http://www.mediafire.com/download/x7cdal44p66wyrx/Song+of+Swords+Beta+1.9.pdf

The legend continues.

>> No.31202038
File: 4.92 MB, 1891x1399, NV 150 04.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

First for howdahs

>> No.31202085

Bring me 200 pigs and a few barrels of pitch and I'll solve your elephant problem.

And then hog roast after.

>> No.31202138

I hope somebody at Opaque was paying attention to the skills discussion back there.

>> No.31202310

To sum up the main points:
- Some kind school-system for skills could be useful, to level several related skills at a discount. E.g. stealth, survival and profession (butcher) for a hunter.
-TNs for trained/untrained might stand to be lowered to 7/8 from 8/9
-Ranks in the superskill should still contribute to your dice pool even when you don't have the relevant subskill, but of course at the higher untrained TN

As it is right now you can run into the weird situation where a guy with 4 ranks in Stealth (subskill: sneaking) and 5 agi has a reasonable 9-dice pool at TN8, working out to about 3 successes on average. This means that under good circumstances he can sneak past your average mook fairly regularly.
But the second he stops moving and just wants to Hide, he forgets all he knows about subtletly and is demoted to a dice pool just 5. With TN9 this means only 1 success, so even a retarded one-eyed baby in a stechhelm would still see him.

>> No.31202439

Mind you, the Stealth guy in that example would have taken a focus on sneaking twice and actually have an 11-dice pool at TN 8.

>> No.31202541

Ah yeah, you're right. I always forget about Focus. But anyways, the main weirdness is that a character is seemingly completely unable to translate knowledge and training from one skillset to another very related one. It's similarly glaring with Athletics and Speech.

>> No.31202643


Speech and Survival are the worst since there's always one aspect you're useless at.

>> No.31202658

Are arming swords and longswords different weapons?

>> No.31202682

Yes. Not only are they different weapons, but arming swords from the High Middle Ages and from the Late Middle Ages/early Renaissance are different weapons.

>> No.31202780
File: 14 KB, 400x300, Bild1-Langschwert.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Yep. Longsword actually refers to a sword wielded with two hands (pic related is one) which become popular after strong armor obviated the need for shields (see pic related for an example. Arming swords are intended to be used with one hand only, and generally served as a backup-sidearm.

It's a weird D&D-ism (at least I think that made it popular) to refer to one-handed swords as longswords. Maybe they wanted to distinguish it from broad- and short swords or something, but it's not correct.

>> No.31202797
File: 49 KB, 529x271, laughing dice gods.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>reasonable 9-dice pool at TN8, working out to about 3 successes on average

Doesn't work for me. when fighting with a flail (ATN 8) in RoS, I always assumed 6 dice to be minimal "reliable" investment in one success; plus one success per two dice on top of that

>> No.31202809

Also you should see pic related, and maybe check out the related pic. Jesus, I shouldn't try to post this late.

>> No.31202840


Oh I know, I was asking if THIS game had considered that difference at all.

It's rare to see something actually classify a longsword as a longsword and an arming sword as an arming sword. And then they turn the bastard sword into a different weapon entirely, when it's just another name for longsword.

I wonder if it was actually D&D that started this discrepancy.

>> No.31202934

This game's a successor to an earlier high-realism medieval combat RPG called The Riddle of Steel, which also made the correct distinction between an arming sword and a longsword, among other things.

>> No.31202949

Oh yeah, in that case yeah, those are two different weapon profiles entirely. As it happens this game also distinguishes between Bastard Swords and Longswords, but they are very similar and basically only minor variations of each other (the former is very slightly better at thrusting, the latter very slightly better at cutting), so I figure those refer only to two different styles of essentially the same weapon.

>> No.31202973

Ah yeah, I guess that depends on the definiton of reliably. I only looked at what would put you on the better side of the bell curve, so at TN8 3 dice work out roughly to slightly less than one success.

>> No.31203046
File: 114 KB, 575x500, SOARD.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

For reference, these are the relevant weapon entries for those weapons specifically. The numbers in the Strike/Thrust/Defense categories are the Target Numbers to beat (lower is better) and those in the parantheses are the damage bonuses on a successful hit (higher is better, c is cutting, p is piercing)

>> No.31203060

what I find kinda annoying but understandable is the way that RoS and probably SoS will distinguish between loads of different forms of European straight swords, but something like a Dao, Hudiedao, Guandao etc will all just be lumped together under "Sabre"

>> No.31203075
File: 123 KB, 688x471, 1396382090287.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I like to think of bastard swords as longswords with shorter blades or arming swords with longer grips. Kind of like how the Hanwei Tinker swords do it.

>> No.31203083

In Song of Swords, there are two kinds of arming swords, the chivalric and the late, which I guess are distinct in that one is more choppy and the other is more thrusty.

The Longsword and the Bastard Sword are this difference applied to two-handed swords. The developers even said outright that they were incorrectly using neologisms to refer to things that didn't have names. You should've been here during the Falchion/Messer debates. That was a mess and a half.

>> No.31203094


I was kinda bummed out to learn that SoS didn't have their own stats for Hangers.

I love those things.

>> No.31203123

I think they've said that if things turn out well, then in the future there might be culture- or period-specific splatbooks that go into the relevant details for equipment and stuff.

>> No.31203137

How does SoS deal with unarmed hand-to-hand?

Can I grapple and throw a bitch down like Big Boss?

>> No.31203138


It probably will. So will >>31203060

We'll see stuff like that in supplements. Core is 15-16th century Europe with some odds and ends thrown in for good measure.

>> No.31203146
File: 40 KB, 986x329, 5033d68c19622_product_large.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

You can expect to see a bit more variation in the future, honestly. It's planned for there to eventually be supplements going into further detail on different time periods and regions. So you might see catchalls in the core for some of those weapons, but come the release of a supplement on an era of ancient China you'll probably get rules for dao specific to that era.

>> No.31203166
File: 237 KB, 1024x768, detailspain.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>In Song of Swords, there are two kinds of arming swords, the chivalric and the late, which I guess are distinct in that one is more choppy and the other is more thrusty.

Yeah, more or less. Pic related would be a good example of the Late form.

>> No.31203170

There is a quite intricate grappling system in place that allows for pinning, choking, dickstabbing, limb-breaking and even throwing people to their doom. It's quite effective, to the point where it was one of the major ways in which heavily-armored characters were killed in the last two tournaments.

>> No.31203198


Ahhhhh shiiitt, so THAT'S a late Arming Sword?

Fuck I love those things. But swords like that always seem to get classified under "rapier", but I always thought they looked too "classic" to actually be one.

>> No.31203206

They should go full-oakeshoot with a profile for each of them.

Jimmy, if you're reading this, don't actually do that.

>> No.31203223
File: 42 KB, 648x740, Typomaster.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

There should have been a pic next to that post. Now it's here instead.

>> No.31203260

Really? I figured that would more akin to a Sidesword or an Espada Ropera ruleswise.

>> No.31203286

Well, one MIGHT be able to argue that it fits Espada Ropera or Sidesword, but the site I got that from called that out as a specifically 15th century sword, and Jimmy's said that his Sidesword profile represents the more common infantry sidearm swords from about 1550 and onward. The Espada Ropera meanwhile has L reach, and that blade doesn't look quite long enough for that.

>> No.31203313

yeah that's why it's understandable, there's only so much detail to put into a core, just occasionally irks me as a traditional chinese swordsmanship enthusiast that something I see as my specialist subject gets overlooked a lot.
Hopefully any splat in the future should be quality though, based on these threads at least.

>> No.31203334
File: 24 KB, 115x530, kingmaker-1b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

That's too complex of a hilt. Not quite a sidesword, but not the archetypal late arming sword either.

I see it as something more like this.

>> No.31203356
File: 66 KB, 1913x1917, Rapiere-Morges-2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Yeah they're quite similar, the main difference is that an espada tends to have an even slimmer blade and a large handguard. In some cases, the name is really only determined by where it originated and who used it as much as how it looks.

>> No.31203372

I think it might be cool for a supplement. Just for the sake of maximum autism.

>> No.31203441

It's a Spanish hilt style that was pretty common in the 15th and early 16th century; I don't think it'd really change the statline much (that is, it'd still be a Guard 2 hilt).

Yours looks a bit too broad to be a Late type, honestly.

>> No.31203485

That blade is too naroow. That's just a rapier A narrow rapier at that.

I see espada roperas as something more like this one on the right. Yeah it's a blunt trainer, but you get the picture.

On the left, you have what bridges the gap between a chivalric and late arming sword, the Oakeshott XVI.

>> No.31203528
File: 168 KB, 500x667, swords_112.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Forgot pic

>> No.31203546

Ah curses, I knew I shouldn't have trusted that spanish wikipedia!

>> No.31203633

I wish I could justify using the Sidesword for the character I'm building, as I love the look of them, however as shields aren't a thing in his culture and it's parry score is a bit too high I think I'll have to forgo it.

>> No.31203688

I figure once 2.0 hits (and if it's free of major hiccups) we could try a kind of "natural combat" tournament, where we test out combats how they might come about in normal play rather than just duels. I've been thinking about something like

>18 CrP (seems to strike a good balance between minmaxing and not being useless)
>Fighters start 30 yards apart
>Actual Terrain in the arena. Some that serves as cover, some bad footing, maybe even some that can be exploited with relevant skill checks like climbing/jumping
>Equipment-wise, anything goes. Ranged weapons, melee weapons, whatever magic is implemented by then, even mounts if we get them

Any other ideas?

>> No.31203703
File: 15 KB, 650x309, sh2209.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Dude. Main Gauche.

>> No.31203709


Ahh, really?

Is there an archive or a pic? I'd love to read.

>> No.31203715

Maybe have some "Stock" characters like generic bandits and have some contests to see which character can gank more before dying? Shit like minigames.

>> No.31203730

Yeah, that's a neat idea. Also, group fights!

>> No.31203743

I have considered giving them a parrying side weapon, but presently at least I'm leaning towards a pistol in the offhand instead. I wonder if we'll eventually get rules for flipping over a pistol to use as a club.

>> No.31203749

I'm reminded a little of Deadliest Warrior's fights.

>> No.31203786

They've both been held on roll20, which automatically keeps a log of the whole thing, though naturally that's a whole lot of words to go through by now. Ctrl+F for the gm's nick until you get to the good parts. I hope these links work:



>> No.31203843
File: 59 KB, 668x458, precioustritium.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>Not Authorized

My heart.

>> No.31203884
File: 18 KB, 129x541, lancaster-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

It's 15th century, just like the Spanish one. The Kingmaker is pretty thrusty. Good cutter too. It's narrower than chivalric swords and not quite as narrow as later ones. I think that places it firmly in late arming sword.

Another contemporary of the Kingmaker and late arming sword, the Lancaster

>> No.31203963
File: 30 KB, 800x210, aa_Milanese.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

It's not uncommon to find blades more fitting of the chivalric era with hilts from later periods, though, and that's what I think you've got.

Here's another good blade example, a 15th century sword from Milan. The hilt, however, is complex enough that it reminds me--weren't we supposed to get a rule in SoS for paying a bit more to increase the Guard value of certain weapons?

>> No.31203967

Ah fuck me, I'll never learn how to properly link that shit. Hold on, try this one instead:


>> No.31204028

>35 inch blade
>complex hilt
>on the Arms and Armor rapier section
>arming sword

I'm not buying it. My logic is if it is an arming sword and has a diamond or hollow ground cross-section with a decent taper, it's a late arming sword.

Plus 1570 is the 16th century.

>> No.31204087

Hm, that's not the date I saw posted for it, but it's possible somebody goofed somewhere.

My logic is that if an average man's hand with fingers not outstretched isn't wider than the blade at the ricasso, it's probably chivalric, or an extension of chivalric aesthetic into the late era (as some people, as I mentioned, DID continue favoring that type of arming sword even into the beginning of the 16th century).

>> No.31204514

These swords aren't that wide. One is a bit more than one and a quarter inches and the other a bit more than two.
Width isn't the only factor either. There could be a lot of taper from a wide base and can still be thrust oriented.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the difference here is I see a step towards thrusting arming swords in the late 14th century that I call the late arming sword and you see a continuation of the same or to similar to be different style. I see complex hilted thrusting swords of the late 15th century to mid-ish 16th century as espada ropera and you see them as late arming swords. There seems to be a hundred year gap in where we think the split happened.

>> No.31204543

One and three quarters for the first sword*

>> No.31204626

Perhaps it's just the way it looks to me then, because looking at the ones you posted I see a particularly beefy blade that looks like it'd still do Chivalric cutting damage when swung. Otherwise, yeah.

>> No.31204659
File: 43 KB, 600x600, kép.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Best hilt type.

>> No.31204729

Hells yes. Fingering swords like I finger bitches yo.

>> No.31204906
File: 37 KB, 432x326, kingmaker-7.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I get where you're coming from. You think they deserve the cutting damage and I think they deserve the thrusting. That's the thing about cut-and-thrust swords, they are pretty good at both. They don't quite cut as well as the lenticular cross-sectioned swords we can all agree are chivalric, but they are close. They definitely are more rigid and better thrusters, especially against harder targets. I figure the +1/-1 difference is the trade off for going for switching cross-sections and profiles.

>> No.31205011

I wonder if in the future there will be rules or talents for using a second hand on one handed weapons for perhaps a bit better parrying or damage.

>> No.31205052
File: 106 KB, 500x375, Talhoffer2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.31205064
File: 103 KB, 800x535, Instituto de Valencia.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Maybe, but well, again. I'm not sure that blade wouldn't cut as well as swords a couple centuries earlier.

Here's one more Spanish sword of that sort from before. Again, still not quite long enough for a Ropera IMHO, and the date I saw on it is late 15th century.

>> No.31205185

Frankly, I don't think either of you are wrong in your placement assessments, only in that you're both possibly underestimating the breadth of the category. Both those swords probably could count well enough as Late Arming Swords, with other factors such as cross-section and degree of distal taper probably generally creating similar effect in combat.

>> No.31205235

Aren't loosey-goosey classification systems fun?

>> No.31205247

Ones like that aren't bad cutters either. I'd say Oakeshott type XV, XVI, XVIII, and XIX(your pic) are late arming swords.

>> No.31205276

Oh yeah, late arming swords in general aren't bad at all at cutting, it's just the earlier forms were noticeably better at it.

>> No.31205379
File: 40 KB, 804x360, 1396389345898.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Gentlemen, how would we go about Insult Swordfighting?

>> No.31205383

For that matter, chivalric arming swords aren't exactly awful at thrusting--it's just, again, the later blades did it better.

>> No.31205452

Thus the +1/+0 vs +0/+1 difference.

>> No.31205598
File: 156 KB, 1000x518, 0000112.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Just to be a bother, here's what I'd call a rapier, with an Okaeshott XIX blade.

Now if only the stunt-captcha would actually have worked. I admittedly only tried romaji though.

>> No.31205617

I'll agree with that. They are more similar than different. As long as long as a straight one handed sword is more thrusty than cutty, is not too long and has a simple enough hilt it's a late arming sword. Nebulous, but that's how it is.

>> No.31205636
File: 80 KB, 800x1230, 1396390225852.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

One more, just because I love these blades.

>> No.31205658

I never read Oakshott's book on renaissance and later swords. Did he have a typology for those?

>> No.31205686
File: 233 KB, 800x694, full27195707_b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Yeah, "rapier" tends to be, in the real world, a bit of a bugbear term to properly apply.

I was legit mad about the captcha until I discovered it reverted when you rolled over the picture with your mouse cursor

>> No.31205909
File: 495 KB, 1439x2657, Värja - tysk 1600tal.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

European weapons and Armour include one typology for rapier hilts (though he won't quite call it such, since he's one of those who see the rapier as thrusting-oriented only), one for bastard sword hilts, one for schiavonas, one for maces, etc. Nothing as through as his typologies for the cruciform medieval sword and its part though, and IIRC he never bothers with a blade-based typology for the post-medieval period.

Yeah, here's a fun one to brutalize any attempts at neat categories with for example. A single edged Pappenheimer.

>> No.31206067
File: 16 KB, 300x390, m-night-shyamalan.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>single edged

>> No.31206119

Which one, there are five swords labeled "Saber," each with different stats(granted one is a zellish weapon), a Saber-Halberd, and probably a half-dozen others that would normally be called Saber(shaska, yataghan etc.) in other games.

Hell, Tulwars and Scimitars have different stats.

>> No.31206175

Go Backsword? Almost as sexy.

>> No.31206231
File: 25 KB, 700x438, 8434180322.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Once you've had backsword, you never go, er...back. To other swords.

>> No.31206247
File: 328 KB, 687x1024, 5477998895_56c04ba4cc_b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

And none are more based than the Saber-Halberd.

>> No.31206265

What the dick

This seems impractical somehow...

>> No.31206280


I vaguely recall this abomination being hilariously overpowered in a prior version of the beta.

>> No.31206286

I don't know, I like having the ability to thrust with reasonable efficacy. I tend not to trust TN's over 7 with anything close to reliability.

>> No.31206326

These days I have slightly more faith in things with TN 8, personally, due to the general upward shift of TNs from Riddle.

>> No.31206447

I see it as
TN 6 means I can afford to be a bit risky, TN 7 means I can usually trust it to do it's job, TN 8 means I should only do it when I have a sever advantage or need, TN 9 I flat out don't consider usable for anything other than last ditch do or die, TN 10 is no nay never.

>> No.31206468

That's the way I used to see it, but with the TNs being what they are now I'd shift all those up by one.

>> No.31206475
File: 148 KB, 750x1000, 1194287960278.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

There's a bit of a debate going on about whether it's a real thing or a bit of 19th century historismus. Waldman writes them off (after personal inspection of a number of them I'd imagine) as too flimsy for fighting in his polearm book, but a number of museums appears to accept them as genuine.

>> No.31206510
File: 916 KB, 1493x909, Old vs. New.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I don't think it's changed other than in price, but every polearm went up it seems.

Apparently they're from somewhere in the 30 Years War. In SoS, they're quite nice. Even if KM is correct and they are made up, >>31206475 , it's juuuuust plausible enough that I could imagine them finding a place in the fantasy setting.

>> No.31206532

Well when you think about it statistically? Between TN 6 an TN 10 there is only a 30% difference, so each +/- to that TN is comparitively huge.

>> No.31206579

I don't think they work unless they also benefit from a shitton of reach or damage. The Halberd manages to still feel competitive despite its poor TNs because it's got EL reach, +5 damage and so much crushing and AP that it can turn fully armored combats into rocket tag.

But things like some of the swords and axes that have TNs of 8 but no huge increase to damage, these basically become unusable.

>> No.31206609

Shouldn't that be 40%?

>> No.31206652

Exactly! Like a Zwei I still consider viable because if you get even 1 success it's statistically more useful than a TN7 or even a 6 in some cases.
Well 40%-10%=30%, at least in my mind, Another way of looking at it is times 4 increase to your hit range.

>> No.31206719

Then you have stuff like the pole flail. It appears to suck, but it's got Chain and Crushing. If you're parrying that motherfucker, you need four successes before you can actually start parrying. And if it does hit, you're probably dead.

>> No.31206729

I haven't hit the books, but If there's a TN10, then the dice run 1-10, and equalling or exceeding the TN is a success? Then TN6 should be 50%.

>> No.31206754

TN6 is a 50% chance since you have to hit the target number or higher so 6 7 8 9 10 so 40%. This might have been resolved but just clarifying

>> No.31206774

Meant to quote>>31206609 as well

>> No.31206780

Well damn I suppose you're correct. So that's an even wider degree. Sorry I guess that wasn't clicking in my brain. I know thats how it works in game but in my example it wasn't sticking.

>> No.31206800

So do we have any hard numbers for what constitutes Short, Medium, Long, ect ranges?

>> No.31206827

You actually hit on the point I was going to make in the meantime. That "only" 30%/40% from 6 to 10 will actually cut down your successes to a fourth/fifth. Quite a bit. And the last 10% from 9 to 10 are the worst, slicing your successes in half in one go.

>> No.31206884

The point is, I would never trust my characters life on a TN 8 parry unless I had significantly more dice than my opponent. And even then there are many more important things I could use those dice on.

>> No.31206913

I would, but only because there's so many more weapons that rock only slightly better or equivalent attack accuracy.

>> No.31206977

So you'd never void? What if you duck and they feint? What if your opponent is using a TN 8 weapon?

>> No.31207003

So any word from Jimmy on whether Sim. Arm-Parry/Attack will ever be a thing or if Sim. X/Unarmed Attack will be? Because they should.

>> No.31207064

Honestly? Probably not. And I have said that if Im forced to I would use TN8 for things. Frankly I'd trust an armored Arm-Parry first.

>> No.31207085

Rule 1 of surviving: Never be on even ground with your opponent.

>> No.31207119

Jimmy suggested feints shouldn't defeat ducks like that.

>> No.31207339

So what happens if two people Simultaneous Block/Attack and both successfully block? Who get initiative?

>> No.31207461


Jimmy talked about reordering manoeuvres into Parry Manoeuvres, Attack Manoeuvres and so on, so Simultaneous Parry/Attack will probably become "Use a Parry Manoeuvre and an Attack Manoeuvre", with Arm-Parry being a Parry Manoeuvre and Unarmed Attack being an Attack Manoeuvre.

>> No.31207483

So I've been looking at missile weapon stuff and 2 things have struck me.
1. Why would you ever take a swallowtail over a Broadhead arrow? You'd need to get 4 bonus successs to even equal the base damage of a broadhead, not to mention ALL of that goes away if you hit hard armor. There isn't even a price difference.
2. How does the split damage types work for Thrown weapons like axes and knives? Do you take the highest? Pick before hand or is it based on Stuck Chance?

>> No.31207524

I don't get why you can't duck an attack aimed at the upper arm at least. Feinting also seems a little too good at hosing voids

>> No.31207562

You can dodge it instead which is arguably better. Still, feinting from a duckable attack to a dodgeable attack should LOWER the TN of the defense.

>> No.31207808

Also: Why are Hand, Lever and Stirrup even an option for a Heavy Crossbow? You literally can not succeed with them unless you have 10 strength, assuming you use Strength which it never specifies.

>> No.31207847

You use your proficiency score, IIRC.

>> No.31207914

Thanks, i was actually just scrolling to the reload section. In that case you can only use those at MAX weapon proficiency and even then it's insanely unlikely.

>> No.31208164

Who else is expecting some kind of April Fool's joke release?

>> No.31208343

Your successes are saved. It's not like "You need this many successes on one roll" it's "you need this many successes, as long as you don't roll 0 successes."

>> No.31208387

Aren't those methods the ones that don't let you save sux?

>> No.31208392

Except for the Hand, Stirrup and Lever tool, which is what I was referring to, they don't store span.

>> No.31208406

Oh. Yeah. Derp. I forgot they were a thing.

>> No.31208570

I just found it odd that 3 of the 4 methods, 2 of which are only for this and the hunting crossbow, are NEARLY impossible and in fact only possibly at the max prof. So 10 if you do a crossbow only prof or noble school and 11-12 for any other school.

>> No.31209042

Jimmy, if you're there...really hope this got a look as well.

>> No.31209079

I'm still wondering why they changed the Missile Prof level rates and all that? Like, why was the base price increased and why are they set to -1 or -2 for most schools?

>> No.31209097

They were tweaking some things with ranged combat. It's going to be reduced in cost next time around, but other kinds of changes are going in.

>> No.31209194

Jimmy, I know you guys are adding a lot with this update, but come on, release the damn thing already. It's been a week since you said were going to get it.

>> No.31209370

A late update is late until it comes out, a bad update is bad until they fix the shit they could've fixed before if they'd taken their time.

>> No.31209562

Well they're not doing a very good job of the "micro-updates" they promised. It seems like it would get farther if they just showed us what they had daily so we could feedback and input rather that sit around with our thumbs up our asses waiting for them.

>> No.31209617

Want some cheese with that whine?

>> No.31209630

Yes actually, some sharp cheddar would be lovely.

>> No.31209636

I think they've also been stuck doing their actual jobs recently, and have been unable to actually work much on the game.

>> No.31209654

Fair point.

>> No.31209664

Mm-hmm. At least Jimmy and Claymore have anyway.

>> No.31209686

Not just that, but also paying back their workers for all the work rushes from before.

>> No.31211734

Are there any Jingasa in SoS?

I noticed in one of the tournaments one of the participants was an Ashigaru who had a kettle helm.

>> No.31211814
File: 112 KB, 1254x941, samurai_helmets_kabuto3_23.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Not specifically. Use either the Conical Helm or Kettle Helm for it.

Likewise, for a samurai's kabuto, use the Zischagge, with an optional Bevor for the menpo.

>> No.31212096

Is it wrong that I really want to do a jedi vs sith fight?

>> No.31212141

Only if you don't test the Sith warsword vs the Jedi katana

>> No.31212167

>Taking Rocket Tag
>No Rocket Tag with nuke launchers
Seems cool
STN6(+10c)/TTN6(+10p)/PTN7(0) (Cauterizing, Armor Piercing Thrust 10, Armor Piercing Strike 10)

>> No.31212182

1H STN 7(+10c)/TTN 7(+10p)

>> No.31212203

Anyway that brings up the question of how the magic system ought to integrate with combat. Is it okay if one of the combatants can steal initiative to cast a hurt spell point blank? Or should spells be more subtle, or just slower?

>> No.31212239

Seems legit. Nobody gets hit with a lightsaber without losing an important body part. I'm sure jedi have a special talent to significantly reduce parry and void TNs, which is why the fights last so long.

>> No.31212246

I would much prefer slower, more subtle. Perhaps some that can be used in combat but 0 actual combat spells. No magic missile or shit like that, not sleep spells on anything other than a restrained person.

>> No.31212291

Instead of +10c I would just give them a special ability "Lightsaber" and make it ignore armor, TOU, and block/parry successes from stuff that doesn't stop lightsabers.

The STN should totally be 6 and the DTN should be like an 8, do to the fact that they have no weight

I'm pretty sure the Force works a lot like the Sands of Time ability.

>> No.31212365

Sleep spells are cool and should be in every game with a decent amount of magic, but adrenalin should totally stop them cold making them all but useless in battle.

>> No.31212370

I guess that is "Stains" of time, and after reading it, it is pretty much the Force. Jedi also would probably have really high CPs

>> No.31212414

Yeah. "Oh that guards in my way, sleep spell." Not "Look at all the goblins, BOOM instakill sleep aoe."

>> No.31212625

Jimmy talked about Dacian not-jedi before.

>> No.31212849

We should do a Tattered Realms tourney using only characters from the setting, maybe a 16-18CrP game? Not sure yet. We could even use that to test the Arc point balancing and maybe give each player like 5-ish extra arc to spend.

Maybe combine it with the Actual Battle Tourny someone was tossing around the idea of.

>> No.31212911

Winner fights a canon character. If they win they fight Gizka.

>> No.31212971

This may seem like a silly question, but how easy would it be to mix both the historical aspects of the game and the fantasy aspects?

Like say I wanted it to be set on Earth in the 16th century, but all those tales and myths you hear might just be true and humanity may not be fully aware of it until the party suddenly stumbles upon it. Would there be ways of supporting that?

>> No.31213155

Have you ever read any of James Raggi's adventures for Lamentations of the Flame Princess? Better Than Any Man is set during the 30 years war, while you may want to tone it down, it is mostly what you are describing.

>> No.31213721

Hell, if you look at some contemporary accounts from the 30 years war it becomes hard to tell whether it's Warhams Fantasy fanfiction or historical literature. I wouldn't have been surprised if some Orks suddenly turned up during the siege of Nuremberg.

>> No.31214123

Given the monstrosities we've seen come out of character creation already, I shudder to imagine what Sarah Gizka actually looks like statwise.

>> No.31214262

>40 CP

>> No.31214293

But she has poor form on some things so it's fine, it evens out.

>> No.31214378

The fact that she's probably got the Short bane is actually one of the most damning weaknesses out there. Once things go to Red/Red, obscenely high CP pool is less important than brute ADR and reach. Even if she uses a Rapier, she's still a M-reach fighter. If her one-shot victory trick is going red/red and winning, how does she deal with a Cuauhtemoc or a pikeman?

>> No.31214440

>Throw Yellow
>Parry first attack with more dice than opponent has CP total
>Dickstab next attack still with more dice than opponent has CP total.

>> No.31214444

You can be sure she has Bloodthirsty and 10 ADR. So she's probably got at least 12 to Initiative rolls. Nobody who isn't totally optimized for that kind of comtest can stack up to that.
Alternatively, she might be smart enough to Use Simultaneous maneuvers casually. With CP in the high 20s and the superior version of the maneuver for parry/attack, you don't really even need to go red/red, you can just overpower the enemy on his action.

>> No.31214466

If you're going to throw that many dice you may as well go all out and use counter instead of parry.

>> No.31215895

It's not that they promised micro updates, they DID micro updates for like two weeks, rapid fire corrections and responses to issues we found. Now they're hunkering down, working on a lot of the peripherals. The next time they drop an update, we'll be there to critique and they will micro update again.

>> No.31215971

>Well they're not doing a very good job of the "micro-updates" they promised
You're not doing a very good job of the dicksucking you promised. Oh? What's that? You didn't promise to suck dicks? I guess you're not doing too bad a job sticking to that promise after all.

>> No.31217232
File: 104 KB, 800x600, briquet.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.31217295 [DELETED] 

Shut up, gabacho du merde!

>> No.31217364
File: 4.07 MB, 2441x1650, 1396435585241.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


Shut up, gabacho de mierda! Je suis jusqu'à ma poitrine du le petit cabrón!

>> No.31217388
File: 106 KB, 628x304, French!.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.31217873

Her whole shtick in RoS was being what Galt called a Dex Whore. If there's a way to fluff up her ADR, she has it.

>> No.31217895

Pretty much, yeah. 10 ADR, Natural Born Killer out the ass and maximum proficiency would make for a maximum of 28 CP, but I wouldn't be surprised if she had some extra shenanigans going on by now.

>> No.31217907

Oh, and potentially she could eke out up two 2 more from schools if she took the time to convert her skill into a noble or officer school.

>> No.31217914

>Boon: Galt's Waifu (0)
You always have another layer of weighed clothing to take off.

>> No.31217960

Welp, now that you've said it there's going to be at least one campaign where the 'goose prances about butt naked just for those sweet extra CP.

>> No.31218047

That would be like some sort of Super Saiyan Mongoose.

>> No.31218093

Is chemistry called chemystry because Opaque adorably cannot into English, or is this something like Ivalice games calling Magic Magick?

>> No.31218119

I wonder what the Gizka Report would actually be like. Some sort of Marat-like hate machine against Elves, Snakes, Dogs, and the ever ranted about but never seen Rape Minotaurs.

There's probably something like that actually in the setting in the form of a propaganda ministry or a pamphlet and broadsheet publisher in Dace.

>> No.31218173

That sounds to me like a more lethal version of the Emperor has no clothes.

>"See lad, and that over there is our leader, Sarah Gizka."
>"...Sarge? Why isn't she wearing anything?"
>"I have now idea idea what you mean, son. Now be quiet, she's looking at us"
>"I'm serious, sarge. I can even see her-"
>"Ohmygod shutup, ohfuck she's heard us run RUN-"

>> No.31218214

I don't think Gizka has canonically spoken a word yet that we know of. Which is somehow terrifying.

>> No.31218262

She communicates with different intensities of groinstabbing.

>> No.31218559

New to this game. Going through the arms and armour section is making me giddy, and I was already giddy from the maneuvers and the little setting tidbits from the races section.

Is there any way I can get the rest of the setting that's been divulged thus far without having to go through foolz?

>> No.31218625

Unfortunately not at the moment. Your best bet is to search foolz for the username Jimmy Rome, he's been doing all of the loredumps. A few country names that I think had dumps that you can add to the search are "Dace", "Karthack", "Clachland", "Osterbjia", "Iber" and "Galli"

>> No.31218694

And then just fill in any gaps with Serbs

>> No.31218817

Also, Genosus and Dessia

>> No.31219013

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but a high noble can, at character creation, per RAW, have
77760 vicious attack dogs

>> No.31219030

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

>> No.31219036


>> No.31219339


He must also feed and control them.

>> No.31220190

If he can get that many from somewhere, yes.

>> No.31220512

Ridiculous, she's even got voiced dialogue.

>> No.31221474

Go back to Ferelden, Doglord.

>> No.31222398

I'm actually surprised there are no rules for old Roman armor or weapons here besides the Scuttum and the strangely named lead javelin, which I assume is a pilum. The developer everyone keeps telling me to go look up posts from is called Jimmy Rome for goodness sake, where's all dat segmentata?

>> No.31222514

Laminar armor is apparently still in the pipe. Though keep in mind that romans also had access to chain maille and used it almost as much as the segmentata. The gladius is pretty much represented by the Short Sword profile.

>> No.31222564

I think there was a Roman in one of the tournaments. Fairly sure that guy managed to represent most of the loadout with stuff already in the book.

As other people have said, we're probably going to get period-specific splatbooks after the main release with more gear and stuff in.

>> No.31222626
File: 78 KB, 550x880, 1396464512734.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>77760 vicious attack dogs
Panzerhunden Division wow!

Fast as the wind, the invasion has begun
Shaking the ground with the force of thousand paws
First in the line of fire, first into hostile land
Dogs leading the way, leading the way

Charging the lines with the force of a furious storm
Fast as the lighting phantoms swarm
20 miles at nightfall, taken within a day
Thus earning their name, earning the fame

They are the panzer elite, born to compete, never retreat (dog division)
Leaving our dead, always ahead, fed by your dread

>> No.31222628

Someone also seriously did a huge 150 man brawl between early Romans and Etruscans.

>> No.31222645

It was 80 men.
Still an amazing feat.

>> No.31222667

mah nigga

>> No.31222675


Yeah haha, I saw that. Fucking crazy shit right there.

>> No.31222742

You're both right. It was 80 men to a side, for 160 total. I tried to do one of my own with Dacians and mercenaries, but it turned into such a clusterfuck that I had to stop and play Thief to remind myself that I was human.

New Thief's a bit of a disappointment by the way. The Asylum level was great, but the game felt really linear. Even so, it felt a lot like Tattered Realms at times. A weird combination of medieval and almost industrial technologies combined with an undercurrent of magic that's subtle but always present.

>> No.31222756

I'd heard it was alright. Think I'd rather play Dishonoured if I want something in the same vein.

>> No.31222789
File: 236 KB, 480x480, 1361035736593.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.31222834

Yeah, I've found it to be way too linear as well. The draw of the old thieves was having this nice big areas that you explore bit by bit, combing through them to find nice shit to steal. But in the new one, pretty much every area I encountered had a distinct start and end, and only like one or two detours along the way. Oh, and there are points of no return seemingly every 50 meters, often with no indication of their presence beforehand.

>> No.31222943

I agree. Dishonored was one of those games that felt a lot like Thief original, but it did the linear game better than Thief did because it gave you more powers.

The correct decision would've been to go back to form, do the open level thing. Instead we basically got Dishonored levels without the cool powers.

>> No.31222994


is there a boon yet for having a vicious dog at your side?

>> No.31223006

I think that's represented by owning a vicious dog.

>> No.31223104

Yeah, it seems tlike they're too obsessed with telling this big old story all the time. I'd prefer it if it was almost semi-arcadey, where you can just choose one of several available jobs that you like. Once you start you're dumped somewhere near (but not inside) the target building, there's one or several main items you're supposed to steal, and you're free to snatch as much or as little else as you like. Kinda in the vein of Hitman: Blood Money (whose successor had similar problems, incidentally), or hell, even like Payday.

If they desperately want a story, then it can still be told indirectly through clues you pick up on during individual jobs. In one of them the owner suddenly goes mad due to the plague, another takes place in the guard headquarters, a third one has just been modernised with whatever technomagical monstrosity was recently discovered. You don't always need to a set chronological sequence to tell a story. Besides, the better part of the thief games is the setting itself, not the story told inside that.

>> No.31223114

So dumb question: Chargen, how does investing CrP work? When I use table 1.2, investing 5 CrP, do I get that many attribute, skill and proficiency points, that race, and that social class? Can I invest 5 and still be a human? I'd assume so, but I don't know what that would mean for my CrP? How do you spend it on attributes and things?

>> No.31223216

You spend CrP individually for each column. E.g. you spend 1 CrP on the race column to be able to be human. Then you go to the next column (attributes), and spend 5 CrP there, which gives you 38 points to distribute on your atrributes. Then 3 CrP on profs for 6 points there, and so on and so on.

Hold on, I think I still have that chargen walkthrough that some guy made flying around, here:

>> No.31223239

Ah, that makes more sense, cool, thanks

>> No.31223397

Just finally got on board with this. Holy shit, my balls. This is awesome. Thoughts on best Polearm?

>> No.31223481

The Black Bill is a pretty strong contender in terms of versatility and survivability. But if you really, definitely make some tin can reconsider his life choices, the Lucerne Hammer is your friend.

>> No.31223563
File: 71 KB, 1600x1008, fuck your shit look at my pole.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Luk Dim Boon Gwan

>> No.31223586

I'm a fan of the poleaxe, the halberd, the Lucerne Hammer, the Awlspeiss... I really can't choose a best. It depends a lot on the situation.

>> No.31223697

Range is fucking important.

>> No.31223715

clearly the solution is to take all of them!

>> No.31224127

You made me cry.

>> No.31224515

Halberd brings a lot to the table. Lucerne Hammer and Bec de Corban are both also amazing. Reach, damage, AP qualities and ok TNs are all hallmarks of the good polearms.
SoS is one of those games where there's always a "but" in weapon choice, though. You can never be sure you've got tue best one.
Except for the Falcata. It's just the best sword.

>> No.31224652

Eh, the Rapier is up there with the Falcata as well. Less raw damage, but better defense, thrusting and two extra range steps make it a red/red machine.

>> No.31224883
File: 91 KB, 500x267, 2067286990_dcc2c09bbc-Falcata.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Also, the falcata IS the sexiest sword too...

>> No.31224935


War will never be this classy again.

>> No.31224956
File: 267 KB, 900x675, 1396473529888.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Hell yeah they are.

>> No.31224965

I've gotta say I really enjoy seeing the loadouts in tournaments.

Sometimes I think they're more fun than actually making a legit guy.

You wanna make a Spartan Hoplite? Just make a Spartan Hoplite.

>> No.31224991

Frankly I'm almost unsure if the falcata (and by extension the kopis) really should have forward-swept. Looking at them, there doesn't really seem to be any way to swing with them in such a way that their points would impact first.

>> No.31225017
File: 518 KB, 2259x1400, 1366040283731.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

The robes are pretty cool, I somewhat hate the earlier , pre-Napoleon era attire, but the later one is very cool. Alos than people of every country had they own, definite style was pretty cool too.

>> No.31225051

That's not what forward swept means. It's supposed to be because they are really chop-oriented and better at cutting hard targets. It's not because they strike with the point. It's the same reason why khopeshes have it.

>> No.31225098

Huh, well in that case many axes should probably have it as well, since their angle of impact and blade shapes are similar to that.

>> No.31225140

This guy here, made a Rhodok. r8 and h8 my b8 out of 8 pls:

CrP 18: Max 7
Concept: Rhodok Infantry
Race: Human
Attributes: 5 CrP, 38 points
Skills: 2 CrP, 3 pts
Profs: 4 CrP, 9 pts
Class: 3 CrP, Poor Freeman, 60 SP
Banes: -5, 3 CrP

STR: 5
AGL: 5
END: 6
HLT: 6
WIL: 4
WIT: 4
INT: 4
PER: 4

ADR: 5
TOU: 5
CHA: 4
MOB: 8

Climb: 1
Jump: 1
Aware: 1

Soldier School, level 4
1H Sword 4
1H Blunt 4
Polearm 6

1 lbs chicken
2 lbs bread
50 ft rope

Kettle helm - 3 SP
Plackart+Fauld+Tassets - 35 SP
Spaulders+vambraces - 11 SP
Leather boots - 1 SP
Hand Pavise - 5 SP

War Hammer and Cleaver - 1 SP
Halberd - 3 SP

Boons and Banes:
Hothead - 3
Braggart - 3
Unhappily Married - 1
True Grit +2

Bits I'm not too sure about: Proficiencies, especially with schools, and boons and banes. If I spend 3 CrP to get -5 to boons banes, do I have to take 5 points of banes before I can start taking any boons? Schools: do i spend 1 CrP for each new proficiency, or 0, because human?

>> No.31225171
File: 122 KB, 407x632, DSCN1388.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>people of every country had they own, definite style

Today everyone wants to look like US SpecOps. Yesterday everyone wanted to look like whoever was the cool kid back then. Look at how the hussar style spread around, or "mameluke" sabres.

>> No.31225208

Zouaves, too.

>> No.31225218

Axes have armor piercing strike and crushing. That's how they deal with armor.

I think they wanted something for swords and swords on sticks to combat armor in a distinct way that way they aren't just axes with the sword proficiency.

>> No.31225276

For Banes: Yes, you need to first bring your "balance" up to 0 by purchasing banes with a value of at least -5. Only then any additional bane points count towards any boons you might want to purchase, to a maximum of 20.

Schools: The base cost for adding a new proficiency to a school is 2 (plus potentially a school-specific cost), you being human reduces it to 1.

Also, you can probably drop either the sword or blunt proficiency for the crossbow. You ain't a proper Rhodok until you are a complete and utter pain in the ass for every type of cavalry you come across, be they close by or far away.
Seriously, I've lost count of the times where some dickhead with an arbalest sniped my awesome high-speed steed out from under me with one shot while I was busy doing my Parthia-impression

>> No.31225303

I wanted to make a sergeant but I would've had to dip into more CrP in order to get the equipment. So everything else is alright then?

>> No.31225340

Speaking of which, while the Pontificatrix Guard or whatever is supposed to be the Ruvian version of the Swiss Guard, the multinational and multiracial makeup of it is actually a lot more evocative of the Papal Zouaves:

>"Nonetheless, the regiment was truly international, and by May 1868 numbered 4,592 men. At that time the unit was composed of 1,910 Dutch, 1,301 French, 686 Belgians, 157 Romans and Pontifical subjects, 135 Canadians, 101 Irish, 87 Prussians, 50 English, 32 Spaniards, 22 Germans from beyond Prussia, 19 Swiss, 14 Americans, 14 Neapolitans, 12 Modenese, 12 Poles, 10 Scots, 7 Austrians, 6 Portuguese, 6 Tuscans, three Maltese, two Russians and one volunteer each from the South Sea Islands, India, Africa, Mexico, Peru and Circassia."

>"A British volunteer, Joseph Powell, noted in his account of his service with the Papal Zouaves, Two Years in the Pontifical Zouaves that at least three "blacks" and one person from China served in the Zouaves."

>> No.31225404

Yeah, it's just a bit weird because forward-swept is arguably straight up better than AP1 (unless you're up against lamellar armor).

>> No.31225505

Just two minor hiccups that I can see: The ADR should be 4, fractions are always rounded down in this.

You don't invest skill points into subskills like jump, climb or awareness directly. Instead you put them into the appropriate superskill and "tag" a subskill whenever you're eligible for it (at the relevant levels). Having a subskill basically just means that you can use your skill level when the situation for it comes up. So for your guy it could be something like:

Athletics 2 (subskill: Climb), Observation 1 (subskill: Awareness)

>> No.31225514

It's really only better against mail and jack chains(way better against jack chains). Plate and plated are the same on the first hit for both. Also falcatas don't have crushing so the armor stays high and they can still be parried relatively easily.

>> No.31225598
File: 89 KB, 400x853, 169394_queequeg_scrimshaw.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>and one volunteer each from the South Sea Islands
>one volunteer from the South Sea Islands
>from the South Sea Islands

And now I have this image in my mind, and it doesn't go away. It doesn't go away!

cenobite levels of pain-feels-good

>> No.31225778


The Khopesh will hook your fat, stupid knights to the ground, then beat to death with mighty forward swept power attacks to groin.

Khopesh, best weapon in whole world!

>> No.31226387

Sometimes I wonder if the Americans made all of their uniforms look gay as shit on purpose to troll everyone else.

>> No.31226451

Well, considering one of our major political parties legitimately made their emblem the mighty jackass, I'm going to say yes.

>> No.31226490

>HLT: 6
Thassa lotta bleedin health.

With 9 prof points and Soldier school, with three weapons you would spend 7 points to get to level 4, and have 2 unused points. I would suggest using these to gain two more weapon proficiencies, probably Crossbow and Wrestling, for pure Rhodacity.

Right now you have Polearm at 6, which is not feasible, Soldier school levels them all up simulaneously, and to get to level 5 costs (4-1) 3 prof points.

Your skills are also a little off, as Climb and Jump are both part of Athletics, so you should pick one as your focused subskill and grab another skill.

If you want to be a sergeant, spend a few more points on Banes and get the Rich Boon; for 5 points it doubles your starting money.

He's got a point, crushing is a sweet ability.

Koncerz stronk. VL stronk.

>> No.31226511

>Your skills are also a little off, as Climb and Jump are both part of Athletics, so you should pick one as your focused subskill and grab another skill.
Though I forgot to add, I think they are revising skills.

>> No.31226546

Andrew Jackson was a real son of a bitch.

>> No.31226694

That's super fucking awesome.

>> No.31226776


I'm not normally a fan of the Zouave look but the Papal Zouaves made it look fairly good.

>> No.31226853
File: 25 KB, 244x444, Rochebrune.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Polish Zouaves need love, too.


>> No.31226992
File: 498 KB, 300x225, hnnnnnnnnngh.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>The "of death" portion of the name referenced the oath that the members of the unit were required to swear upon being accepted, which stated that the only outcome of the military engagements that the unit was to participate in was "either victory or death".

>> No.31227064

Has anyone tried making a Bartitsu Sherlock Holmes-esque character? Maybe with a dash of Guy Richie's spin on the guy.

Or would he be outclassed by everyone wearing armor?

>> No.31227123

Go for it. We just need to stat a cane.

He'd get outclassed, but where's the fun in worrying about stuff like that?

>> No.31227201
File: 20 KB, 350x632, 1396481027242.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

On a related note, I'm gonna post a classic...

«Self-defence with a Walking-stick: The Different Methods of Defending Oneself with a Walking-Stick or Umbrella when Attacked under Unequal Conditions»

By E.W. Barton-Wright

From "Pearson’s Magazine", 11 (February 1901), 195-204
[Journal of Non-lethal Combatives, April 2000]

No. 1 -- The Safest Way to Meet an Attack with a Spiked Staff or Long Stick when you are only Armed with an Ordinary Walking Stick.
The first photograph shows the most dangerous mode of attack with a long stick, and also the best position to adopt in order to meet such an attack with safety.
It will be seen that the figure on the right is exposing his body in order to insure his adversary attacking him there, and to be prepared with an immediate defence.
Directly the man with the alpenstock attempts to bayonette him, he diverts the blow by turning sideways, and making a circular downward cut, which hits the alpenstock and causes it to glide slightly upwards and sideways -- a guard known in sword play as "Septime envelopé." The moment the blow has been diverted, the man with the stick must seize the alpenstock with his left hand, and, stepping in, strike his assailant a blow across the face.

>> No.31227213
File: 24 KB, 290x887, 1396481097770.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


No. 2. An Effective Way to Defend Oneself with a Hooked Stick when Attacked by a Man Armed with an Ordinary Straight Stick.

A stick with a curved handle, forming a roomy crook, although hardly so effective as a stick with a heavy knob on top for striking purposes, is a most serviceable weapon in the hands of an expert in the art of stick-play.
Having guarded a blow with a hooked stick, it is a comparatively simple matter to hook an assailant in such a way that he is easily pulled off his balance. With a little practice it becomes easy to make sure of hooking a man firmly by the neck or leg.
Suppose, for instance, that a man carrying a crooked stick is suddenly attacked by an assailant armed with an ordinary straight stick. Here is a very pretty way to overthrow the assailant:
In the first place, the man with the hooked stick should hold his hand and stick high up, and well on one side, so as not to run any risk of being hit on the fingers.
By doing this, he purposely exposes his head to attack. Knowing, therefore, that his opponent is sure to strike at his head, he is prepared for a quick guard. The attacker delivers his blow and is received upon the stick; but before he has time to recover himself, and get into a position of defence, the other suddenly ducks and hooks him by the foot, on the outer side of the ankle, bringing him to the ground by pulling his legs apart.
The assailant is then at the mercy of the man he has attacked, who can choose any part of his body on which to administer punishment.

>> No.31227246
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No. 3. -- The Best Way to Disable a Man who Tries to Rush You, and get under your Guard, in order to Prevent You Hitting him with a Hooked Stick.

The first photograph shows the best position to adopt in order to meet a sudden spring and prevent an assailant from seizing your stick.
As a feint, you make a slightly threatening motion with your left hand, as though you intended to seize the left hand of your assailant, in order to belabor him with your stick. The object of this feint is only to engage your adversary's attention, and make him look at your left hand whilst you suddenly dart your right arm froward, and hook him by the neck in the crook of your stick. Directly you have hooked him, bend your knees well so as to throw the whole weight of your body upon him, whilst you pull him with his face towards the ground.
When you have pulled him down sufficiently far to prevent him recovering his balance quickly, let go your stick, and seize him by the shoulders, as shown in photo No. 4, being careful to keep your feet well out of reach of his hands, so as not to give him the opportunity of throwing you backwards. Then, with a sudden jerk, pull him forwards, and simultaneously jumping close into him, strike him with your knee in the face.
It is necessary to be very careful when practising this trick, as the slightest blow with the knee in a person's face is sufficient to break a nose and several teeth.
Of course the reader will understand that in any method of self-defence it is necessary to know how to maintain the proper distance between yourself and your assailant, in order to deliver a coup-de-grâce with effect and certainty. This knowledge, together with the confidence, dash, and savoir-faire that are so essential, can only be acquired by practice; but, when once gained, it is never lost.

>> No.31227264
File: 21 KB, 350x488, 1396481305750.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


No. 4. -- How to Use a Walking-Stick as a Weapon in a Crowd.

It will be understood that it is quite impossible to swing a stick in a crowd, owing to want of elbow room; and so, in order to get elbow room and free scope to hit, you proceed as follows: --
Hold your stick, more or less in a line with your hips, and proceed, as in the second photograph, to lunge to your left, holding the end of the stick in your right hand, and letting it slide through your left, in order to be able to guide it with certainty.
Lunging at the body of the nearest man on your left, you disable him, and cause him to retreat precipitously. In doing so, he involuntarily forces back those in his immediate neighborhood. You then turn on your heels, and bayonette the nearest man on your right, this time holding the end of your stick in your left hand, and guiding it through your right. Directly you have bayonetted him, and caused him to force back others in his attempt to escape, you make a quarter turn on your heels, and bayonette the man behind you.
After this, seeing another man close to him with his legs slightly apart, you make a dive with your stick between his legs, and upset him. Take one step backwards, and you should now have sufficient room to swing your stick to right and left across people's faces and heads until they disperse.

>> No.31227267


What technique is that? Where you dig a hole in the ground that you can hide in and then slice the calf of a guy trying to hit you with his cum-sock?

>> No.31227281
File: 33 KB, 341x857, 1396481368506.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


No. 5. -- A very Simple Way to Protect Yourself with a Hooked Walking Stick against a Boxer.

When carrying a hooked stick, here is a very simple way to protect yourself against the attack of an unarmed assailant.
Hold your stick behind you, as seen in the first photograph, so as to run no risk of the stick-arm being seized. Bend your left arm with the inside of the left hand facing outwards in order to protect yourself from a kick at the hip, or a blow from the fist at your face or ribs.
In the photographs it will be seen that the boxer has chosen the attack at his opponent's face. To meet such an attack safely, you must put your head well on ones side, and bend both your knees very considerably at the moment when the boxer leads off, so as to get well under his guard. Directly you receive the blow upon your arm, you must straighten your knees, and so throw up the boxer's arm, and make him lose his balance, which prevents him from using his right fist upon your ribs.
You have now the opportunity, and plenty of time, to hook him by the ankle with your stick, as seen in the second photograph. Having so hooked his foot, pull his legs apart, and bring him to the ground, when you can apply the stick where and how you please.

>> No.31227293
File: 26 KB, 338x916, 1396481431006.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


No. 6. -- How to Overcome the Advantage of an Assailant who Attacks You with a Stout Stick when You are Carrying only a Light Cane.

When threatened with an attack from an assailant who is armed with a superior stick to your own, it is wise to attack him before he realises that he has you at a disadvantage.
To do so to the best effect you should lead off with aright-handed blow at your assailant's head, thereby forcing him to guard high. At the same moment you should jump in one movement from the position shown by the figure to the left of photo No. 2 to the position shown by the same figure in photo No. 3 -- a very simple and easy movement. In making this spring you must be careful to keep your head down and on one side.
As soon as you are in the position shown in photo No. 3, without making any attempt to lift your adversary in order to throw him, simply strike your knee smartly against the back of his knee; this will have the effect of knocking his leg from beneath him. As he reels about on his left leg trying to regain his balance, put plenty of force into your left arm, and throw him upon the back of his head. He will immediately put out both his hands to try to break his fall, and in so doing will drop his stick.
In this way you accomplish your purpose and disarm your adversary. You can now give him his coup-de-grâce as you please. The surest way is to deal him a blow across his ankle or just below the knee.
I must caution anyone who attempts this trick upon a friend to be very gentle when pushing with the left arm to effect the throw, otherwise it is likely that the friend upon whom the experiment is tried will be rendered unconscious or otherwise seriously injured. The throw described is a very strong and dangerous one if properly delivered.

>> No.31227304

That's a specific type of formal duel, between a man and a woman. The man is in the whole with a sock to make things more equal.

>> No.31227322


Well that's kinda what I was thinking. A guy who relies on where to strike, how to strike and finds ways around the armor using whatever might be around him.

It'd be hilarious if he actually won a few.

>> No.31227326
File: 26 KB, 350x406, 1396481540109.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

No. 7. -- Another Way, when Armed with a Light Cane, to Disarm and Overpower an Opponent who carries a Superior Stick.

Suppose once again that, when carrying only a light cane, you are attacked by an assailant armed with a stronger and more serviceable stick. In order to rob him of his advantage you immediately proceed as described in the last example by aiming a high blow at your opponent's head, thus causing him to guard high.
Now spring in one bound under his guard to the position shown in photo No. 2. Passing your left hand over his right forearm, placing your right hand against his wrist, and at the same time seizing your own right wrist in your left hand, you thus firmly "lock" your adversary's arm. All this is done without loosening the hold upon your own stick, and without seizing your opponent's arm in any way with your hand -- yet the lock is so powerful that the strongest man would be a child in your hands when you properly apply the leverage you may obtain from this position.
To apply the leverage correctly, you should force your opponent's elbow towards you with your left arm, and at the same time force his right hand downwards and from you, with the "lock" formed by your left hand in holding your right wrist.
The pain and strain from this grip is so excruciating that your opponent will fall upon his back, only too thankful thus to escape the danger of a broken arm. He is then at your mercy, and you may apply your stick or your foot, as circumstances may dictate.
This, and the preceding method of self-defense with a walking-stick, may be practised upon a swordsman armed with a sword or a dagger with absolute certainty of success. Personally, I have tried one or other of these examples time after time against good swordsmen, and have never failed to bring the trick through successfully. Of course, your success, or otherwise, will depend to some extent upon the quickness, dash, and power with which you execute the assault.

>> No.31227344
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No. 8. -- One of the Best Ways to Meet a Direct Attack upon the Head with a very Heavy Stick when Armed with an Ordinary Stick.

The first photograph shows a man armed with a heavy stick in the act of striking at the head of a man armed with a walking-stick. The latter is standing in the double-handed position of guard; and it will be noticed that in holding his weapon he places his hands so that the back of his left hand is on the side nearest his face, and the back of his right hand on the side farthest from his face; in other words, the positions of his hands are reversed.
Directly the assailant delivers his blow, the man with the walking-stick slides his stick through his right hand until has hands meet, and then twists the stick without altering his hold in any way so that his right hand passes over his left. In this position, with his wrists crossed, he holds the stick above his head, to receive the downward cut delivered by his adversary.
Directly he has guarded the blow, and so broken the force of it, letting go the stick with the left hand, with this hand he seizes the assailant's staff. Retaining hold of the stick with his right hand, the man attacked may then break his opponent's wrist with a heavy blow, as seen in Photograph No. 3. Another method is to let the blow fall across the assailant's kneecap, as seen in photograph No. 4.
Still another way to proceed is for the man attacked to continue to use his own weapon with both hands, and to deliver a heavy blow across his adversary's face, as shown in the last photograph.

>> No.31227347

The man is in the hole with a mace, the woman uses the sock (with a rock inside).

>> No.31227360
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No. 9. -- A very Serviceable Way to Disable a Taller Man than Yourself when Opposed to Him under Unequal Conditions.

Directly you have had time to catch your opponent's eye and judge your striking distance, you must expose your head, either by slightly lowering your guard, or by holding your hand and stick well on one side, so as to invite an attack on your head. You must rely on your own quickness to protect your head when the blow falls.
Directly your opponent sees the opening, he will lead off at your head. You protect yourself by receiving the blow upon your stick, as seen in the first photograph. Then, without losing any time, drop into the next position, and bayonette your assailant over the heart.

>> No.31227363

That's a man and woman dueling. The man is in a hole to level the playing field and using a club. The woman has a rock in her bonnet.

>inb4 SoS needs -1 STR for women

>> No.31227380

SoS never claimed to be realistic.

>> No.31227383
File: 21 KB, 314x634, 1396481770567.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


No. 10. -- Example of a very Pretty Guard and Counter-blow when an Assailant Directs a Blow at your Head with a Stick.

When an assailant attempts to strike you on the head with his stick, you may receive the blow upon your stick by bringing your hand right across your face, and holding it well on the left side of your head with the back of your hand outwards, facing your opponent. Your stick should point slightly downwards to prevent your opponent's stick sliding down yours, and striking you on the fingers. The moment you have done this you step slightly towards your opponent's right side with your right foot, and describe a circular right to left back-handed cut across his face, which should be sufficient to prevent him troubling you any further.

>> No.31227397
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>> No.31227407

As neat a thing as Bartitsu is, isn't it also the original McDojo?

>> No.31227410
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No. 11. -- An Example of the Double-Handed Guard in Combination with Ambi-Dexterity.

In this example the man on the left in the photograph is seen taking up the double handed guard, but his assailant refuses to accept the invitation at his body, although it is exposed -- instead of this he aims a blow at the left wrist, or the left side of the head. On this the man with the double-handed guard, in order to avoid being hit upon the fingers, lets go of the left-hand end of his stick, and swings his left hand behind him -- a movement which automatically imparts the initial movement for a right-handed blow. This he delivers across his opponent's wrist, which he would thus break, just as the assailant is in the act of striking.

No. 12. -- Another Example of the Double-Handed Guard in Combination with Ambi-Dexterity.

In this example, the defender, as in No. 11, invites an attack at his body by guarding his head in an exaggerated way, and so exposing his body. His opponent immediately attempts to take advantage of the opening by striking at the exposed body, when the other simply draws his left foot towards his right, and so retires out of striking distance of his adversary. Then, by releasing his hold on the stick down heavily with his left upon his assailant's head, as seen in the lowest photograph.

>> No.31227415

Yes it did.

>> No.31227437


That was Karate.

>> No.31227441
File: 159 KB, 503x690, E.W. Barton-Wright.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


Concluding Note.

With reference to the short description of walking-stick play, and the tricks described in this and the preceding number of Pearson's, I may state that the art of self-defence with a walking-stick is particularly adapted to conditions where a man is attacked by more than one person. It can be readily acquired, either by men or women, and when once mastered would enable you to defend yourself, with absolute safety, against a knife, boxing, savate, etc. The more dangerous methods have not been shown.
Besides being a most useful and practical accomplishment, this new art of self-defence with a walking-stick is to be recommended as a most exhilarating and graceful exercise.

>> No.31227445


I love that there was an actual answer to my jerkoff question that's even weirder than how I thought it was.

Feudal Europe; what a country!

>> No.31227449

First sentence after the intro in chapter 0
>Song of Swords is a historical and fantasy tabletop role-playing game that puts its emphasis on realism.

>> No.31227452



>> No.31227488


There's something wonderfully elegant about how this guy describes hitting people with a stick.

>> No.31227522


It is amazing how some things are able to survive the test of time by a thread.

I wonder if Bartitsu ever would have been re-discovered were it not for Sherlock Holmes.

>> No.31227543

In the sense of "heavily Westernized and of dubious quality as actual self-defense", I mean.

>> No.31227592

Yeah, they should check their knight privilege.

>> No.31227606

What I really like about these two is how he emphasizes presenting false vulnerabilities to lure the opponent into making a mistake. The psychology of combat is utterly fascinating.

>> No.31227627


I have no idea how valid Bartitsu is as a self-defense mechanism cause I think barely anyone knows how to properly use it. There's so little data remaining on the art (kinda like Ninjutsu). For all we know it could be incredible.

Though it wasn't even really westernized, I mean it was a western martial art originating in England with some inspiration from various other arts, both western and eastern. Loads of martial arts take inspiration from one another.

>> No.31227696


In fact when I think about it, Bartitsu actually does have a lot of validity in the sense that a walking cane is one of the few makeshift "weapons" you could actually take out with you publically worldwide.

>> No.31227722

Huh. Wonder where GURPS Martial Arts got the idea that it was somehow a rubbish art.

>> No.31227877
File: 103 KB, 406x348, garrud8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Keeping with the Bartitsu theme, and since this thread is, after all, the home of the Sarah Gizka Academic Study & Groin-Stabbing Female Empowerment Society:



«After training in Bartitsu from the dude that invented it (yes, Barton-Wright is the dude with the master 'stache at the center of the pic above), she then went to Soho and studied Tokyo-style Ju-Jitsu with Sadakazu Uyenishi, the first ju-jitsu master to ever teach pupils outside of Japan. She became a master in using leverage and mechanics to overpower larger men and perform incredible feats of strength, and by 1907 the 35 year-old Mrs. Garrud's shit was so tight (she'd already been studying martial arts for roughly 14 years) that she actually starred in the United Kingdom's first martial arts film – a silent movie called "Jujitsu Takes Down the Footpads" where some douchebag hoodlum tries to jack her purse and she goes Jackie Chan on his ass until he's a de-ballsacked bloody smear quivering on the sidewalk crying for his momma.

Well performing public displays of badassery, opening a couple of ju-jitsu training facilities, and becoming England's first Michelle Yeoh was great and all, but around 1908 shit got serious for Edith Garrud, and her services suddenly became desperately needed by the quickly-ramping-up Women's Suffrage movement in England. Basically, this was the deal – women in England thought it would be pretty cool if they could vote, inherit land, ask for a divorce, and have some kind of legal precedent established preventing them from being put to work at eight years old. A bunch of guys thought this was bullshit, so every time a group of women would get together and demand this stuff these guys would show up with a bunch of cops and beat the shit out of them.

>> No.31227906
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«This was kind of a problem for Edith Garrud, so from 1907 through 1914 she opened the doors of her ju-jitsu school to train Suffragettes to fight back, and I don't mean in the non-violent Gandhi turn the other cheek way – I mean in the "any part of you that touches me is going to be detached from your body" sense. Running her women-only training halls, she assembled a band of 30 hardcore women that she trained intensely in martial arts, hand-to-hand combat, and general badassery, equipped them with weapons and armor, and then assigned these "Ju-Jitsu Suffragettes" to serve as the personal bodyguard of a Suffragette leader named Emmeline Pankhurst.
Here's roughly how it worked – Pankhurst would have a suffrage rally, get arrested for "disturbing the peace or some bullshit", starve herself to death in prison, force them to release her for health reasons, and then go right back out and do it again. Eventually, hordes of cops and "unpleasant young men" opposed to the idea of women voting became such a big deal that Edith Garrud was called in to layeth the smacketh down. Garrud responded by assembling the Bodyguard – 30 women, trained in ju-jitsu and capable of using improvised weapons to fight off any jerkburger who tried to mess with Pankhurst. The women would be out there in big dresses and hats, looking totally normal, but underneath their heavy wool dresses they'd have three inches of cardboard wrapped around their midsections to prevent them from breaking ribs when they were clubbed by police truncheons. »

>> No.31227924
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«Oh right, and under their dresses they'd be packing Indian clubs, which are basically bowling pin-looking things that really really seem like they'd hurt like a motherfucker if you got popped in the dome by one.

You can say what you want about the ethics of fighting the cops or whatever, but the Bodyguard's record is pretty damn badass if you ask me. Meeting in attics and basements and taking long routes home to keep police inspectors from following them and learning their identities, the women of the guard not only planned cunning disguise and decoy operations to through the fuzz off Pankhurst's trail, they also got out there and mixed it up with The Man on dozens of occasions. Like one time Pankhurst was giving a talk at a town hall, and 50 cops came running in with clubs to break it up – they were faced off by 25 women with Indian clubs, swinging like maniacs, bashing in heads left and right. When the cops tried to climb up on the stage after Pankhurst, they quickly learned that the garlands of flowers draped around the stage weren't decorative, but actually concealed barbed wire fencing that ripped them up and funneled them all into a choke point where the Guard could stand their ground. Another time a small group of the Guard were attacked while escorting Pankhurst to a different talk, and had to take on over a dozen armed cops. The cops eventually overpowered the women, knocked Pankhurst unconscious and fought through the horde of club-swinging suffragettes only to later learn that the woman they'd arrested was actually Pankhurst's body double.»

>> No.31227962


Cast off the shackles of yesterday, shoulder and shoulder in to the fray, our daughter's daughters will adore us...

I learned about the Suffragettes back in school, as did many other people here in the UK I'd imagine, but I've never heard of this woman.

You'd think she'd be a little more famous considering.

>> No.31227987
File: 220 KB, 1024x688, 1396484098616.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


«While Garrud herself was rarely involved in these frays herself (her position in the organization was too important to risk her being arrested and imprisoned so she had to keep her nose clean), there is more than one recorded instance of her flipping cops weighing at least 180 pounds.

The militant suffragette movement took a break for the Great War in 1914, but their voices were heard loud and clear, and before the War was over an Act was passed that granted over 8 million British women the right to vote. Garrud, no longer needing to organize an underground female fight club trained in the fine art of punching cops, continued running her schools, wrote a couple magazine articles about self-defense, and ran the woman athlete's branch of the Women's Freedom League. Later in life she taught classes to London police officers (they were curious what that whole ju-jitsu cop-flipping thing was all about, and once she knew the techniques weren't going to be used to oppress her friends Edith was happy to oblige them), and worked as a martial arts fight choreographer for stage and film.»

"Women using jiu-jitsu have brought great burly cowards nearly twice their size to their feet and made them howl for mercy."

>> No.31228033

This'd make a fucking epic movie. I want to see this female fight club kicking the shit out of 1890's bobbies.

>> No.31228035

I'm sure this has been discussed but I'm on my phone: what time period is sos supposed to cover? I'm wanting to do some research to acquaint myself with potential alternate history campaigns

>> No.31228061

>the garlands of flowers draped around the stage weren't decorative, but actually concealed barbed wire fencing that ripped them up and funneled them all into a choke point

Oh, God, my sides have left the buiding...

>> No.31228100

The wiki talks about a tv movie (and theater plays too, holy shit!). Any british here with a download link?

>> No.31228112

If the game were meant to be realistic, Strength 8 wouldn't let you cut people in half with a kitchen knife.

>> No.31228128

The core game is around 14-early 17th century or so. Mostly 15th, though.

You can make quite a lot with the rules, but they plan to release supplements to detail other periods and locations.

>> No.31228129

I believe 16th century Europe has been stated as the best time period for SoS, but if the Kickstarter goes through they will release books for different eras and areas.

Opaque's Tattered Realm setting is a whole nother thing though.

>> No.31228143

>As strong as humanly possible
>Couldn't possibly hew through flesh and bone

>> No.31228183

I'm a Britfag but it looks like it went out in the 80's so I doubt anyone's got a copy. Might be a tape out there somewhere though.

>> No.31228221

>There's so little data remaining on the art


«Back in the very early 2000s, Bartitsu Society conversation turned from purely academic chat to considering how to bring the art back to life. At that time, although the active participants came from a wide range of martial arts backgrounds, almost all of us had experience in the historical European martial arts (HEMA) movement.

The task of reviving Bartitsu was seen very much in HEMA terms, with several caveats; it was uniquely a cross-training method between certain Japanese, English and French/Swiss antagonistics, and, unlike many HEMA revivalists, we did not have a complete technical catalog to work from. Thus, we would effectively be reviving an experimental work-in-progress rather than a finite system»

>> No.31228276

Not just that, the wound descriptions for each level of wound are just examples. You can change up the description to any other similarly-fatal injury that suits the size of the weapon used to inflict it.

>> No.31228363

Took the words out of my mouth.

>> No.31228467

>We just need to stat a cane
Either Truncheon or Two Handed Club depending on the cane. There's also quarterstaff.

>> No.31228651

Those are all different from canes. Barton-Wright writes about how to defend from those weapons with a cane since they are different. The cane is also supposed to be worse as a weapon.

It should be like a truncheon, but longer with a worse strike TN. Maybe add hook for a cane with a crook.

>> No.31228661

This. Though I wouldn't be surprised to see stats for an actual fencing cane (and while we're at it, cane swords!) should a supplement for this time period come out.

>> No.31229064

Any suggestions for some historicool events in those time periods that would make good campaigns? Obviously I will look up what wars and such were on at the time but based /hist/ probably has good suggestions I imagine

>> No.31229671
File: 168 KB, 800x407, GLS-03.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Hussite Wars, Italian Wars, the Battle of Flodden Field, the back half of the Hundred Years' War, the latter part of the Byzantine-Ottoman Wars, the end of the Reconquista, the French Wars of Religion, the first Anglo-Spanish War that involved the defeat of the Spanish Armada, the start of the Dutch War of Independence...and that's just a handful of ones involving European powers from the 15th and 16th century.

>> No.31229672

Hussite Wars, the Fall of Constantinople, the Italian Wars, the 100 Years War, the War of the Roses. These would all make very good backdrops for campaigns. And that's just the commonly known stuff.

>> No.31231321

I'm going to go ahead and make a new thread.

>> No.31231414

New thread: >>31231394

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