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[ERROR] No.30872391 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Old thread here: >>30849545

I'm gonna be boring and just stay with the standard proverb, so here you have it.

Watch your backs,
Shoot straight,
Conserve ammo,
And never, EVER cut a deal with a dragon.

>> No.30872450

How much would you augment a decker?

>> No.30872484

>>30872450
Depends on what you'll want to achieve, and edition.

>> No.30872488

>>30872450
Not at all, the aliens would clearly be able to listen in on your thoughts if you got wired.
And if they stop you, who is left to save the public from their cruel complots?

>> No.30872501

>>30872415

7 karma is the cost of specialization, which gives you +2 to a specific subset of a skill. Catlike gives the same +2 to the whole skill, while Natural Athlete does the same for two skills. They are quite worth it.

>> No.30872516

>>30872484
5th e and i guess i want to stay alive if i get attacked.

>> No.30872556

>>30872516
Something to raise reaction then, and wear good armor.
It's a balancing act, because cyberdecks and ware are very expensive in 5th edition. If you invest in one thing, you'll be worse than fully specializing on the other.
Other than monetary requirements, the only limit is the amount of essence, though, so you could conceivably go the full 5,99, if you somehow got enough money.

>> No.30872728

I'm still looking for ideas for running Shadowrun Cleveland.

I've decided that Lake Erie will be way up, so the flats will be flooded slums. I'm looking for what corporations might have an interest in the lake, and any freshwater serpents that may be breeding in it.

>> No.30872747

>>30872556
Reaction and armor, thanks and maybe ill gather enough money.

>> No.30872807

>>30872556
As much as you can afford. But, unlike how it was in superior incarnation of the game, decks cost you serious cash, so you're kind of shoehorned into pure decking without street saming on the side.

>> No.30872823

>>30872450
You'd get good milage out of the logic buffs. Beyond that, reaction improvers are always useful, as is agility improvers. Depends on what sort of cash you have though, although starting deckers often don't bother with too much, so your advancement options in that respect should be pretty open.

>>30872362
Yeah, that had as much to do with the obvious expansion options being done and then they scratching for money as often happens ala DnD.

>>30870125

4th and 5th have more in common than they have as differences.

>> No.30872892

>>30872807
There are arguments that this is a good thing.
I play 4th, because even the good changes in 5th don't weigh up against the bad changes for me, but I'll freely admit that hacking was too cheap in 4E, greatly diluting the "pure" hacker role, and making progression kind of an absurdity.
This being said, I think that cyberdeck prices are ridiculously over the top in 5E, effectively wrecking a character, if their deck ever gets destroyed.
The sweet spot seems to be somewhere between the two extremes, IMO.

>>30872823
>Yeah, that had as much to do with the obvious expansion options being done and then they scratching for money as often happens ala DnD.

As much of an outspoken critic I am against CGL, I dearly hope that they take so long for the core expansions because they're doing a lot more QA than they did for the core rulebook.
Or, in other words: in dubio, pro reo. Until they fuck up (again).

>> No.30873055

>>30872892
>There are arguments that this is a good thing.

There are people who want Shadowrun to be class based game, belive it or not. I think they were behind 5th edition. Hell, it even had some ex DnD devs on the team.

>> No.30873221

I'm running a 5e game, and one of my players has built a troll street sam with monsterous cyberarms, who focuses on either throwing nearby enemies/objects, or simply pulling limbs from their sockets. Is there a good way to do the latter?

And somewhat related, has anyone ever tried to do a hit location table? Given a world where cyberware is fairly common, it shouldn't be too deadly to have the possibility of limbs being blasted off a la Dark Heresy, right?

>> No.30873311

A spirit can use Movement on a vehicle right?

>> No.30873557

>>30873221
Actually, no. Blasting a limb off will send people into shock. Shock is hard to quantify, since I've never been in it, but I like to think that it's the brain having trouble processing things that it's unable to process. A state of shock is the brain routing signals to do things that just won't happen, like moving a limb that's not there, I think, or rationalizing something that's just not rational.

>> No.30873655

>>30873221
Usually hit locations are done intuitively or via Called Shot.

>> No.30873730

I'm playing shadowrun for the first time ever, 5e. I like the fluff behind the technomancer, but I have no idea how to build the character or what I'm doing on runs. Is there a guide somewhere? I'm slightly confused because the rules for technomancers are presented as "like the decker but" and that's a shitton of things to learn. Is it ok to have a technomancer and no decker? Should I just be a decker? everybody else in the party is a hurrr guns shootan peewpew type.

>> No.30873811

>>30873055
In all fairness, I don't think that this is a valid concern.
There should be a necessity to sink character creation ressources into a given specialty, if you want to create one of the archetypes. Every other type of character had this necessity in 4E, except hackers, who were, with the core rules, and up until War (as much as it pains me to say anything good about this book) basically just an addon 'class' to any other kind of archetype.
The lack of progression (or, inversely, the cheapness of acquiring programs and best-stats commlinks was pretty damning.

I don't think that SR5 (and its throwback to SR3) prices for cyberdecks are the way to combat this, but I do think that some action was necessary to make matrix-PCs feel like a meaningful choice, instead of something duct taped to a face or samurai, like an underbarrel-hacker.

>> No.30873829

>>30873730
>Should I just be a decker?

I belive deckers suck in 5e. They can't get the same raw matrix power as technomancers and unlike 4e, they can't really get into other stuff due to prohibitive prices of cyberdecks.

>> No.30873837

>>30873730
Yeah, TMs and Deckers occupy a similar niche, they just work with different mechanics and have varied capabilities.

If you want to play a hacker type, you'll need to learn the hacking rules. No more than a shooter needs to learn the combat rules better than some. Either way, they're not really that complicated when you get down to it, so crack the book and have a good read, it'll make sense in no time.

>>30873221

Other than having a good strength score, not so much. Maybe a specialisation in grappling. That kinda idea is a bit more gonzo than what you usually see in Shadowrun, though, at least as a bread and butter thing.

>> No.30874080

>>30873221
Don't know much about 5e, so you might have to juggle some numbers around (I think DV went up?), but there's an optional rule in Augmentation (4e) where if a character takes 7+ physical or stun damage, they roll an Edge (1) test. On a failure, Something Bad happens.

If I need to determine hit location, I just roll a d6 going clockwise with the head as 1, right arm as 2, etc. 6 is torso, so that's shattered rib cage, collapsed lung, etc.

The main issue I've noticed (at least in 4e, anyways) is that the most likely people to be taking 7+ damage are the street samurai, who then have to pay the most for usable cyberlimbs so that their ability scores don't go through the floor.

>> No.30874082

>>30873837
Techers and deckers are more different than most people realize. You can't even try to play a technomancer the same way you would a decker, save for like one combo involving being an elf and using dataspike.

>>30873829
A lot of people would say the exact opposite. Deckers are way better than technomancers out of the gate and they have the ability to splash into meatspace due to having a better priority and the ability to get cyberware.

>> No.30874111

>>30873837
I've been using grappling as a baseline, and maybe using a "called shot" from that position to make an opposed strength test? So he would roll unarmed+str-4 vs unarmed +str

>> No.30874115

>>30873221
>And somewhat related, has anyone ever tried to do a hit location table?
Looks like they're going to put rules for targeting specific body parts in Run & Gun.

>> No.30874139

>>30874082

Pft, semantics. You bring one along for the same reason you bring a decker along. Someone needs to turn off the cameras, unlock the doors, crack the datavault, switch the gardening drones to 'kill all humans' and set the showers to scalding.

>> No.30874147

>>30874080

You should roll an 8 sided die instead.

Head, eyes, left arm, right arm, torso, left leg, right leg, groin

>> No.30874153

>>30874139
Oh of course.

It is just the way they do it is so different it's important to mention to the uninitiated because if he rolls a technomancer and builds like a decker with spells he is going to get rolled.

>> No.30874203

>>30874111

It's a feasible option. Personally I think ripping limbs off is kinda specific, and doesn't always merge well with the fairly abstracted damage system.

Plus the amount of strength required saving some sort of sharp edge...

If you had a blade or something in those arms, or some sort of saw, cutter, etc, it would be easy. Just a called shot, if they inflict bad enough damage, you've got the arm in the process, but for the most part Shadowrun doesn't really go for that sort of total limb removal other than GM fiat for serious wounds. In fact it's a textbook case for burning edge to avoid instant death. NPCs might give you some more wiggle room theatrics wise though, as they don't matter to the same degree.

Why'd you want to tear limbs off?

>> No.30874225

>>30874203
>Asking why players want loot.

Kidding aside yeah, ripping off a limb does seem less efficient way to kill a guy.

>> No.30874246

>>30874225
Let the wookie win and there's no need for this.

>> No.30874266

>>30874225
Dude, you can't just rip limbs out, you gotta have the bodies uninstalled and cleaned up by a proper cyberdoc.

>> No.30874272

>>30874203
Fuck if I know, this is for a player I've got. He just enjoys playing hulking monstrosities and mentioned an interest in this kind of action. He's already started by beating a ganger to death with his own motorcycle.

>> No.30874276

>>30874147
I actually also roll for sub-part (leg at hip, knee, ankle, head in eyes, ears, brain, and so on), so we can use all those neat partial cyberlimbs, but yeah, you get the general idea.

>> No.30874299

>>30873311
Yes, however due to the high body of vehicles, the effect will be lower.
e.g. Most cars have a body of 10, which means that you need a spirit of minimum force 5 to augment them (with anything lower only being able to affect things with a body up to 8).

Spirits of Force 6 are usually sufficient, as they will multiply the vehicle's speed by 3.

But when you really, REALLY need to get the fuck out of dodge, you can just summon a Force 10 spirit, and get your speed 204+ vehicle to break Mach 2.

>> No.30874320

>>30874276

Oh well carry on then if you already got a functioning system. I just copied the amount of hit locations in the older Fallout games into my games.

>> No.30874679

>>30874272

Hulk style character is TOTALLY doable. Troll, strength improvements, cyberlimbs, etc etc, there's lots of possibilities for wrecking shit violently. Oh, and heavy weapons.

>> No.30874789

>>30874679
Oh, he's got like a 14 strength at the moment, and as much dermal plating and armor as priority A resources can buy. He didn't want to mess with guns because he's new to the system (hell, my whole group is) and recoil/AP/firing modes was a bit much to take at the beginning. But ripping arms out and beating someone to death with them isn't too much I guess.

He'd totally be That Guy if he wasn't an awesome roleplayer.

>> No.30875133

What are some good knowledge skills to have as a Decker in Texas? 5th ed by the way. Currently have 20 points to spend but no clue what to invest in.

>> No.30875542

What do i need to know lore-wise if i want to make a campaign set in the scandinavian countries?

>> No.30876039

>>30875542
Everything you need should be in Shadows of Europe, if you can find it. It's an SR3 (I think) sourcebook.
Updates on the timeline should be in the 6th World Almanac.

>> No.30876075

>>30876039
Cool, i'll check them both out. Thanks

>> No.30876280

>>30874153

Well, of course. Techno's suck donky balls, sadly. Fading waaay too high.

>> No.30876364

>>30876280
Compared to mages? Sure.

But that is sort of like saying Deckers suck because sniper rifles deal more damage than data spikes. It doesn't make fucking sense.

>> No.30876370

>>30875133
Matrix Sites, so you can decrease Data Search times by knowing which sites to visit for relavent data.

CAS History, so you can accurately complain about the damn Azzies.

Hardware Cannibalisation, so you can (with GM's permission) pull apart hardware and use it to make other stuff.

>> No.30876404

>>30876280
Just use sprites like someone with half a brain.

>> No.30876494

>>30876364

Are you fucking retarded? No, seriously. Compared to magic, that does more, faster and better. Yes, it's a direct comparison.

>> No.30877337

>>30876494
It isn't a direct comparison unless mages can cast stunball in the matrix and street samurai can punch someone in the face with a 12 strength spur.

Deckers lose out compared to their meat space counterparts themselves dumbfuck.

Hell if you want to go that route, in regards to the best aspect of mages and technomancers, the summons, the technomancers win. Clearly mages are underpowered because spirits are not as good as sprites and mages can't use as many.

>> No.30877430

>>30876494
Also, not trying to sockpuppet here but...

>Does more.
Magic can't do anything in the matrix, so irrelevant.
>Faster
Blatantly false considering how much initiative the technomancer has on the mage and the fact threading and casting is the same speed.
>Better
Only matters if they are able to even try to do the same thing. Last time I checked a mage with a cyberdeck is in every way worse than a technomancer, with or without deck.

Seriously, it isn't even a comparison you can make. It is like comparing faces to riggers, or deckers to infiltrators. They do entirely different things and can't actually do what the other does.

The only thing that matters for technomancer balance is if the are competitive with deckers. Some people think yes, some people think no.

Honestly it comes down to if that dumb designer gets his way and manages to make multiple datajacks a thing. If that isn't a thing technomancers have enough on deckers to be viable, if it is a thing technomancers are DOA regardless of if you play them as you should or not.

>> No.30877651

>>30877430
Lets be fair if you can stack multiple pieces of the same implant the entire game breaks anyway.

>> No.30877838

>>30877430
It's worth mentioning that Health spells can turn a Hacker into a Matrix God. Increase [Logic], Increase [Intuition] and Increase Reflexes can allow a Hacker to dominate the Matrix while staying in the safety of AR.

>> No.30877929

>>30877651
>Get 10 vision enhancements, see everything.
>Put 20 smartlinks on your gun, cross continent sniping.
>Get 10 pallet factories, take only 2 damage from a direct hit from a rocket
>Multiple Super-thyroid glands. The end.
>Be the flash with 20 synhacardiums.

>>30877838
Works the same on the technomancer though if you use increase willpower on a technomancer for improved fading resistance, which becomes kind of silly considering despite the technomancer's high fading ratings most powers are balanced around being used at rating 4-2. Or you could toss
a charisma boost onto a technomancer and they can blow the crap out of anything.

They are both good archtypes. Honestly I want to see a technomancer decker team up some time, because they have some amazing synergy going on.

>> No.30877999

>>30877929
Also getting +5 dice on initiative from an increase reflexes spell is pretty much impossible to do without multiple initiations and foci. By that point the technomancer should have been able to buy a cyberdeck and be the best of both worlds, as well as having submerged multiple times.

>> No.30878089

>>30877929
>Multiple Supra-thyroid glands. The end.
The hunger, the never ending hunger!

>> No.30879867

Hey /tg/. My getaway/face gunslinger is in a situation where he's pissed off the sec in the ACHE and they're dragging his unconscious body off. How fucked is he?

>> No.30880072

>>30879867
Never played in the Seattle setting, but isn't the ACHE a gigantic fucking slum in the ruins of an Arcology? I didn't think that there was security in there.

But if it's as bad as some of the plot makes it out to be, you're A grade, eaten by ghouls or raped to death by Troll dicks grade fucked.

>> No.30880121

>>30879867
Your team needs to intercept you and either kill you and destroy your link or rescue you.

You should do your best to co-operate with either goal. And if you are ever about to be captured have the decency to brick your own 'link.

>> No.30880252

>>30880072
>>30880121
Well shit. How much trouble do you think I'll be in for drugging two guards?

>> No.30880312

>>30877999
>as well as having submerged multiple times
Submersion costs
>Karma cost equal to 10 x (Grade x 3) Karma
while initiation costs
>The cost to initiate is 10 + (Grade x 3) Karma.

So that part isn't really true idk about the rest you what you guys are talking about though.

>> No.30880326

>>30880252
Whatever you did that was illegal pales in comparison to being a terrorist for hire who has multiple highly illegal fake SINs, either preforms or associates with someone who preforms illegal magic, has highly illegal implants and gear, and who repeatedly commits felony tax evasion.

>>30880312
That is a confirmed typo.

>> No.30880375

>>30880326
It wasn't in any of the erratta.

>> No.30880435

>>30880375
All the erratas are WIP. A lot of errata is floating around on forums and not in the documents yet.

>> No.30880489

>>30880375
Some of the people catalyst have working on the errata posted on the forums and confirmed that it is indeed meant to be 10+ (Grade x 3) and not x (Grade x 3).

>> No.30880588

>>30880435
>>30880489
Fucking sucks how the errata was broken into 12 pieces and scattered across the globe to prevent it from falling under the control of the forces of evil though.

>> No.30880870

>>30880588

Sounds well organized.

>> No.30880954

>>30880870
Like the book.

>> No.30881101

>>30880375
>>30880435
>>30880489
Speaking of errata, what are the odds of getting a second printing with the errata sometime this year?

I bought the pdf, but I don't want to buy a physical copy until they give dwarves their eyes back.

>> No.30882282

Is armor worth the encumbrance penalties?

>> No.30882364

>>30882282
Armour is worth taking measures to bypass encumbrance. Or, in 5e, having enough strength for your armour accessories.

>> No.30882418

>>30882282

Typically you take the greatest amount of armour you can have without penalties.

The gear book'll probably have more stuff to bypass encumberance problems as well if previous editions are any indication.

>> No.30883389

>>30880326
>and who repeatedly commits felony tax evasion.

This is something people tend to forget; the IRS doesn't get to go after megacorps, so when they get the chance to go after smallfish tax-evaders (which runners are almost by definition), they come down like the hammer of Thor. They also have some reasonably scary whitehat deckers on their side.

>> No.30883507

>>30883389
In SR5, the SIN disadvantage specifies that you have to pay so much of your income in taxes.

>> No.30884053

>>30880326
ANY possibility this doesn't end with me serving out a life sentence/getting put down with a bullet to the head?

>> No.30884722

>>30884053
Hope your team can rescue you.
And the ACHE is huge, if you can escape, it shouldn't be too hard to get away.

>> No.30884820

>Want to get into Shadowrun
>Last two times I've tried group/GM was bad
>New group uninterested

Feels bad

>> No.30884823

Are there any books that have just a huge list of NPC's? Pregenned Johnsons and things like that?

>> No.30884849

>>30882364
I rely upon a cybernetic arm for strength so I'm in trouble, there.

>> No.30884924

In the event I have to lose another player due to lack of attendance this Wednesday, would anyone be interested in joining a Shadowrun 4th ed game that runs on Wednesday nights at 7pm EST? The player that might leave us is a face and the rest of the team breaks down as two riggers, a hacker, a street samurai and an infiltrator. We use Maptools for the game and skype for OOC.

>> No.30884970

>>30884849
Not really. At 1 strength, a helmet (+2 armour) is only 1 point beyond your strength limit. You would need at least +3 to start taking penalties.

Just to be sure that's clear - armour itself in 5e does not count for encumbrance. Helmets and shields do.

>> No.30885144

>>30884924

I would, totally, but I'm unfortunately working until 10EST.

>> No.30885335

>>30884924
I'm game

>> No.30885354

>>30885335
My skype is Detectiverobust, so add me and we'll get started.

>> No.30885370

>>30884924
Damn

I really want to, but I have D&D on Thursdays. Back-to-back like that would be pretty ugly.

Also, I know NOTHING about Shadowrun.

I do have Maptools and Skype though.

>> No.30885402

>>30885370
Well, if you wanna add me on skype anyways, I can try to teach you 4th ed. 5th ed is just a matter of reading the core book.

>> No.30885864

So is Hollywood still a thing?

>> No.30886087

>>30885864
Yes. The area got wrecked pretty hard by a tidal wave a few years back, but it managed to claw its way back, more or less. The town's also the newest jewel in the PCCs crown.

>> No.30886106

>>30885864
You're darn tootin' it's a still a thing. One of the few places being famous as a public shadowrunner is actually beneficial.

>> No.30886270

>>30886106
Though it's worth noting that anyone with two braincells to rub together remembers that "public" doesn't mean "everyone knows what you really look like" and gets a decent mask.

>> No.30886349 [DELETED] 

I really want to get into Shadowrun, but the core book is extremely intimidating to me. I am used to playing d20 games and home made systems. Is there somewhere I can find a step by step guide to character creation and how the world works?

>inb4 its all in the books
I have read most of the core, but I can't make sense of it.

>> No.30886390

>>30886349
>Is there somewhere I can find a step by step guide to character creation

In the core book.

>how the world works?

First chapter of the corebook.

>> No.30886419

>>30886349
Do you have any specific questions about how the world works?
Because for such a generalised question the best answer really is just to read the books.
Also what edition.

>> No.30886422

>>30886349
Core book.
I had that issue too. I'd recommend reading the shadowrun storytime up on suptg, it got me into the whole system.

>> No.30887401

>>30886087
>>30886106
So I could make a street sam/driver who used to be a stuntman and got the ware to survive more crashes and stuff? Would I have worked for Horizon or something?

>> No.30887464

>>30887401
Yes, though they could have also work for Aztech, Ares or a smaller, non-megaowned studio. Those do still exist.

>> No.30887584

>>30887401
So like Drive, but with more cyberware.

Fuck yes.

>> No.30888642

>>30877651
>>30877430
Why the fuck would you even GET more then one Data Jack? It's a plug in your damn skull you use to hook cranial commlinks/decks into DNI ports.
I mean, since there's not really a circumstance when you'd need to use multiple DNI ports at the same time (and doing so would incur multiple Grid penalties) the only reason you'd do that in the first place is for pure cheese factor.
I guess I'm spoiled by my gaming group or something.

>> No.30888651

>>30880072
Not "in the ruins of" as it's still fully functional, but it's basically run by the UCAS military, who have no idea how to run a domestic building so they're running it very, very poorly currently.

>> No.30888678

>>30888651
I thought it was a self contained self sustaining housing project in post DEUS era, sort of a storage facility for people. It's described as a volunteer prison.

>> No.30888804

>>30888642
5e? Because it adds Noise Reduction, which stacks.

>> No.30888826

>>30888678
It was a self-contained self-housing project in the PRE-Deus era too: that's basically what an arcology is, a massive self-contained community environment.
The difficulty lies in that Renraku is considerably better at managing a giant housing project then the military is (as it was supposed to basically house a significant number of Renraku's employees in the city, as well as their office and living spaces).
However the UCAS is not especially good at managing it, plus nobody really wants to live there anymore thanks to the legacy of the AI takeover, so they basically turn it into a prison for homeless folks.

>> No.30888848

>>30888804
So the pure cheese factor then, like I said.
Sometimes I forget that this hobby is populated by the occasional miscreant who breaks a system just because he can. I've never had that problem with my group thankfully.

>> No.30888921

>>30888848
Considering it's been supported as working that way by CGL staff, I'm more inclined to say calling it cheese is you kvetching rather than any actual problem.

>> No.30889110

Question: How close to a noise marine can you get to in shadowrun? The heavy armor would be optional.

>> No.30889129

>>30889110
Very. A technomancer could 'see' things using music, meaning that in order to knock out a punk-ass corporate decker, the character launches a barrage of heavy bass at their enemy.
Outside the Matrix, you're limited to using music in slightly more conventional ways, but the adept's Enthralling Performance power means that if you shred hard enough on your keytar, you can mesmerize everyone in the vicinity.

>> No.30889245

>>30889110
>>30889129
4e rules allow you to combine a synth axe with an Ares "screech" sonic beam rifle. A pilot upgrade and weapon personality would allow you to play at a target and have the weapon to fire itself at the same time. Heavy milspec armour also exists, though the 5e version is closer to target.

>> No.30889271

>>30889245
You could also go for two shoulder / one back mounted "custom look" (speakers) sonic rifles, and as an adept you have the option of elemental punches powered by sound. (ignores armour completely)

>> No.30889282

>>30889110
>>30889129
Even better, I believe sonic weapons are a thing in Shadowrun, you could easily get your GM to let you use the weapon customization rules to build a guitar around one.

>> No.30889342

>>30889110

You could also have Sonic Elemental Spells, and have the guitar as a power/spellcasting focus, or possibly a fetish.

>> No.30891123

So is run and gun supposed to give us some form of karmagen. Considering how badly they implemented 4e karmagen I kinda want a new developer but I do want karmagen

>> No.30891760

I'm going to be playing a mage in a game of shadowrun 4e starting Saturday.

I've never played a mage before, so I had a couple of questions.

What are some good general things for me to look at taking for my character?

What is the mindset of a mage? How do they see the world? Can I be a homeless mage, scraping blue moss off of the walls of a subway station to cook up some awakened drugs to get blitzed off of?

>> No.30891839

>>30891760
>What are some good general things for me to look at taking for my character?
What tradition you're going to be using- Either pick one that works well with your character's attributes, or squidge your character's attributes to work well with the tradition. Grab a good focus, if you can.
>What is the mindset of a mage? How do they see the world? Can I be a homeless mage, scraping blue moss off of the walls of a subway station to cook up some awakened drugs to get blitzed off of?
The mage's powers are enhanced by belief; that's why there are so many traditions. You can be a Neo-pagan mage, a Christian mage, even a Jedi mage if your character thinks the Force gives him is power.
>Can I be a homeless mage, scraping blue moss off of the walls of a subway station to cook up some awakened drugs to get blitzed off of?
Yes. That's a bit closer to the wacky end of the pink mohawk-mirror shades scale, but it's a doable character.

>> No.30891861

>>30891123
No, Run & Gun is an equipment supplement.
Run Faster is supposed to be some kind of companion replacement, but there's no word on when that will come out.

>> No.30892903

>>30891839
Is there a unified list of traditions, maybe expanding on Street Magic?

>> No.30892993

>>30891861

Hit and Run is the Vehicle Supplement.

And The Runs will be the second printing of core with all the errata. because its shit

>> No.30893036

>>30892903
I think it's pretty much just Street Magic, sorry. I would assume you can make up whatever you like for your mage to follow, as long as it makes sense when you pitch it to your GM.

>> No.30893070

>>30892993
There'll also be a close combat oriented supplement, called Running with Scissors.

Joke aside: Vehicles will probably be in Run & Gun.

>> No.30893095 [DELETED] 

>>30892993
Well... 4e was first published in 2005 and it took them 4 years to release the updated and mostly fixed Anniversary edition (which still had to have an errata document). Catalyst has already said that creating an updated document (both the digital and print) is prohibitively expensive and they're just going to put out errata like every other game company.

>> No.30893193

How do I decker /tg/?

>> No.30893419

>>30893193

What version of the game?

3rd - don't do it man
4th - meh do you want it with or without flowcharts
5th - pretty straight-forward

>> No.30893720

I've got a rules question which I'm sure is easy to answer, but I've never asked or seen anyone else ask:

My Street Sam is using a cyberarm which costs 1.0 essence (for argument's sake), he then invests on a new, shinier cyberarm that only costs 0.5 essence and replaces the old.

Am I right in thinking that in terms of essence calculation he's still down a full point? Will he ever 'regrow' that 0.5 over time?

>> No.30893759

>>30893720
>Am I right in thinking that in terms of essence calculation he's still down a full point?
Correct.

>Will he ever 'regrow' that 0.5 over time?
No, but depending on edition there's a gene therapy that can regrow it in exchange for essence.

However, after installing your hypothetical delta grade cyberarm, you'll have a 0.5 essence hole that can be filled with other implants.

So, assuming, you have 5 essence left, after installing the standard arm, and you upgrade to the delta arm, you can then install, e.g. another delta arm without losing further essence.

>> No.30893882

>>30888921
It was supported by a freelancer once in one thread, RAW doesn't actually give you a real benefit, and his logic causes the entire book to collapse in on itself in so many ways.

See >>30877929 on how this ruling utterly destroys any pretense of the system working.

>> No.30893921

>>30893720
Yes, you are, and no, he won't. He has what's known as an essence hole, of .5 essence.

He can, however, get other 'ware up to .5 essence without losing any more. He can also get a very expensive treatment that will restore his essence.

>> No.30893953

>>30893882
Which freelancer was that?

>> No.30893956

>>30877337

>Look at me spew shit

Also, really? Spirits do less then sprites, those stupid little shits?

>> No.30894007

>>30893759
>>30893921

Thanks for your help there chummers, that was my understanding, but as I hadn't considered the capacity to fill the 'essence hole' with more 'ware it seemed a little unfair.

>> No.30894031

Alright, /srg/. I need to know.

Infected cyberzombies. Are they possible? And if so, what's the best way to make them?

And how do I make an effective Nemesis Type-T for my players?

>> No.30894061

Oh man the Berlin dlc is great.
Just got to the part where i gotta defuse the 3 bombs and kill all mercs.

Anyone has any images of deckers?

>> No.30894085

>>30894031
If I recall the infected can't get cyberware.

For a nemesis type just make a regular ass cyberzombie. Seriously, in 4e they are just that scary.

>> No.30894157

>>30894085
IIRC infected (or critters with the Regeneration power) can only get Deltaware, to reflect how difficult it is to implant 'ware while they are regenerating every incision.

>> No.30894329

>>30894085
>Infected can't get cyberware

>The Infected and Augmentation
Most enhancement technologies available to metahumans are also available to the Infected at similar Essence and nuyen costs. The Infected characters, however, face several disadvantages when
considering augmentation: their infectious nature makes them a walking biohazard in the eyes of many facilities, not to mention that it interferes with gene treatment.

Ghouls are blind; the most common 'ware they get is cybereyes.
>>30894061

>> No.30894343

>>30894061

>> No.30894408

I know in Returns shotguns are the bee's knees, but does anyone use them in tabletop? Making the enemy lose defense die and hitting multiple people is cool, but you're losing a lot of DV and giving them bonus soak.

>> No.30894441

>>30894343

>> No.30894455

>>30894441

>> No.30894456

>>30894408
The full auto one is probably the only aggressively good one, but honestly they are situational close range longarms that are good for mowing down people who you severely outclass. That is a legit niche in shadowrun because 5 dudes with armored clothes and light pistols can severely muck up the run if not dealt with quickly.

>> No.30894463

In 4E, an Orc Face using karma gen and no magic. What would I need?

Personality pic related.

>> No.30894476

>>30894061
Cyberzombie's are heavily armed and armored walking corpses often trained in the usage of heavy weapons and melee combat that are almost immune to magic, and are given simple objectives to fulfill almost like drones.
A cyberzombie IS a Nemesis T-Type, just without the bio.

>> No.30894494

>>30894476
Cyberzombies could have bioware as well as cyberware.

>> No.30894499

>>30894455

>> No.30894507

>>30894463
Without magic, it's probably wise to invest into tailored pheromones. Other than that: Social skills: Negotiation, Etiquette, Con are the big ones.

>> No.30894527

>>30894463
An ork who's like Plain Simple Garak?
That's hilarious, and I commend you.
>>30894494
I meant without the biological weapons.
In reality though, cyberzombies are already so expensive to make that most likely they wouldn't give them bioware. In fact the entire POINT of making one is to kill it with overload of chrome and keep it alive: using Essence-conserving stuff like bioware defeats the purpose.

>> No.30894540

>>30884823
Sprawl Sites, mebbe?

When is the Second Printing with Errata coming out in hardcopy?

>> No.30894554

>>30894527
Cyberzombies are so expensive that if you needed bioware more than cyberware you could use it and the cost wouldn't really dent the overall cost of the project. Upkeep on the zombie ends up being more than the component parts.

So if they want some palate factories in that zombie they could go ahead.

>> No.30894563

>>30894527
I enjoy Garak as a character, and it fits as an Ork. Calm and pleasant, gets along with most people and has an extensive contact list. A member or a race looked down upon in the larger community, yet upbeat. Also, the wrong man to piss off.

>> No.30894611

>>30894463

Lot of contacts. Lot of knowledge skills. Some kind of 'ware that puts awesome drugs into your brain.Extol the virtues of autocracy. Be Omnisexual. Need to be able to infiltrate, max possible points in con, lot of demolitions.

>> No.30894914

Does anyone have those 2 PDFs about hacking in 4E? I seem to have misplaced them.

>> No.30894965

>>30894914
You mean this one and the sample matrix sites one?

>> No.30895065

Is it viable to use sacrifice metamagic as a way to get around the "Heal spell can't fix drain damage" in 4E? With good drain stats and a bit of luck, the DV reduction from sacrifice should be enough to reduce the drain damage to nothing and then I could just heal my wounds with a Heal spell.

Okay, I could just butcher stray dogs and street urchins, but that would be evil and more importantly, I one might find himself in a situation where these are in short supply.

>> No.30895110

>>30893956
I'm not sure which edition you're arguing but you need to go back and re-read all the spirit powers and tasks. Looking through the 5e book they both have nearly the exact same options for tasks.

I'll give you that an army of sprites assisting in hacking is incredible but you need to then watch in horror as a single F5 Spirit with the Engulf power kills 4 people by itself. I have yet to see a sprite pull that off.

>> No.30895321

>>30894965
...yes?

>> No.30895337

>>30895065
First, that 100% depends on your GM if you can take that. It's solidly locked behind the Blood Magic wall is considered the realm of NPCs. That said, if you're just geeking small animals you may not even get enough boxes of damage dealt to reduce the drain to 0. Then there's that rule in the core book that says that drain can never be less than 2, so I'm not sure if its still enforced with this or it overwrites it entirely.

Though...I'm kinda liking the idea of an rogue blood mage pulling off terrifying magic by toting a orphan child with them.

>> No.30895373

>>30895321
Here's the other one, hope that helps

>> No.30895447

>>30895110

That's my point, yes. Compared to 4ed, 5ed sprits are little retards, and spirits are almost always the better bet.

>>30894329
Not no more, thanks to Goodman Goodman, savior of the human race from those horrible monsters.

>> No.30895585

>>30895337
Drain being a minimum of 2 isn't a minimum of two damage, it is the minimum drain value you have to resist.

>> No.30895723

>>30893882
The chicken little'ing you point to breaks game rules, which kind of defeats its purpose.

>> No.30895762

>>30895723
You mean the idea of stacking multiple datajacks or the idea of stacking multiple pieces of identical gear in general?

>> No.30895791

>>30895585
Oh, I read that mostly wrong. I'm aware that the 2 is just the drain amount. It would still take piles and piles of sacrifice material to both reduce the DV from normal spells and then use the healing spells. It may save a few boxes of health from drain but in the long run I think its too much work for too little gain.

>> No.30895806

>>30894061

>> No.30895834

>>30895762
The stuff in >>30877929. I have a rigger with multiple datajacks, signal scrub, and an RCC.

>> No.30895885

Hey /SRG/ got sort of a weird question for you. Have you ever had one of your own characters go bad on you? For example, I just found a way for the Decker I was playing to leave the campaign i'm in. When I was rolling him up I thought it would be really fun to play a super mercenary character where Nuyen was all that mattered, but after a while I found that the character himself became a cunt. Whenever I tried to do nice things with him I felt really out of character and eventually just found a way to get rid of him. Has this ever happened to you?

>> No.30895894

>>30895834
That is cool, but absolutely nothing in the rules prevents you from stacking Super Thyroids or Factories.

>> No.30895901

Hey guys, I'm new to Shadowrun (and fairly new to tabletop games in general) and I was wondering which edition /tg/ thinks is better: 4th or 5th?

Is one objectively better than the other or is it more a matter of opinion?

>> No.30895938

>>30895901
5e is way better put together as a system but has less content and priority gen really pisses some people off.

Enter edition warriors trying to insist that 5e is flawed therefore it has no right to exist.

>> No.30896062

>>30895894
There's no one saying Platelet Factories stack other than you two, and come to think of it ... I've nothing against a half million nuyen plus 2.8 Essence in costs, and lifestyle costs increased by 25% four times, so you can reach your augmented physical maximums. You won't be doing the Suprathyroid shuffle at chargen, though.

>> No.30896112

>>30896062

The upkeep costs are killer there. Also probably the only runner who genuinely needs to worry about starving if they have to lay low.

>> No.30896117

>>30895938
Nope, those edition warriors have already entered, because you're apparently one.

Your claim that SR5 is "better put together" is basically bullshit.
SR5 has its problems, just as SR4 or any other edition. If we were to enumerate, we would probably come to a very similar number.

No edition is inherently better than any other (except SR4A that's better in every way than SR4).

So, to answer >>30895901 :
No different. I recommend SR5 to newcomers, because it will be supported in the foreseeable future, and new options will be introduced that'll make the teething issues less prevalent.
As a newbie, you'll very probably not even realise the issues with the rules, so it's entirely okay to start with 5th.

Don't disregard SR4 (or even older) supplements, though. The fluff books give you a wealth of timeless information.

>> No.30896180

So I finished Dragonfall a little while ago. I released APEX.

I think...I think I made a mistake.

>>30896117

How well do the 4E things convert to 5E?

>> No.30896257

>>30896112
Yeah ... doubled food intake *4. They're going to have to find some seriously refined foodstuff to keep up, and the concept of not eating on a run would be foreign to them - which leaves me liable to give them Addiction: Food if they can't manage it properly.

Better hope they always have their tag eraser handy when they a vending machine nearby. And that it's not 50 variations on pop-rocks.

>> No.30896281

>>30896180
"Things" from SR4 in general can be used in SR5, but there are a few things to consider:
First, dice pool modifiers are usually wireless bonuses now, so not as prevalent as they were in 4E. Second, you'll need to consider limits and accuracy on equipment. Third, prices are different. Fourth, Armor is higher, as are damage values of both weapons and spell drain codes.
This sounds like a lot of work, but a short view on both editions will make it clear how intuitive you can be there.

Fluff can be used at will, of course.

>> No.30896308

>>30896062
Why don't platelet factories stack?

Like for real? What says they can't?

>> No.30896326

>>30896180
Items and stuff convert semi-ok. PCs not so much. The conversion document for 4e to 5 has 4e starting characters looking like veterans in 5th with regards to skills.

Catalyst has released some pregen missions that have both sets of stats listed for NPCs if you wanted to look at them side by side.

>> No.30896329

>>30896180
>I released APEX.
>I think...I think I made a mistake.
You've killed everyone with a datajack. Everybody on the whole matrix. At any point in the future, anyone who has a datajack and connects to the matrix will either be eaten by APEX or have their mind brainwashed into the Communion. YOU DID THIS.

>> No.30896354

>>30896329

I...I didn't give it the dragon body...that's something...right?

>mfw I was playing a decker

>> No.30896373

Thanks for spoiling me, how about them spoilers?

>> No.30896389

>>30896308
Reading comprehension. I said no one has said they stack. Perhaps CGL will clarify that they do at some point, as Noise Reduction has. (both in book and on forums)

Until that point, it's equally valid to say they provide access to a conditional: when you take two or more damage, reduce it by one, rather than each providing damage reduction individually.

>> No.30896395

>>30896257

Reminds me of Kid Flash from Young Justice who had a heap of really effective food stored in compartments in his costume so that he wouldn't get too hungry to fight.

>> No.30896415

>>30896389
It isn't actually. If Datajacks stack, it is equally valid to assume other gear that doesn't explicitly say it doesn't stack stacks, and if you had any amount of reading comprehension you would realize that nothing in the description of anything on the list actually says that it doesn't stack or imply it.

Hell, datajacks imply they DON'T stack because they give you a flat rating 1 noise reduction.

>> No.30896494

>>30896354
>mfw I was playing a decker

That was one of the main reasons I fried the fucker, I was far too jaded to believe his garbage about how eating Monika's brain had given him feelings and shit, and there was no way I was risking my decking future in a world where at any time some superpowered AI might decide I was a loose end to tie up.

Getting revenge for an old friend was just an added bonus.

>> No.30896513

>>30888826
I'm not sure how the UCAS could be bad at managing it other than it not turning a profit. The whole place is fully automated, food, clothes, consumer goods get produced, consumed and then recycled back into new products by robots.

Yeah, I get that people might be iffy getting a free meal by a robot which only a few months/years ago was ripping out people's eyes and spines then bolting people to walls and ceilings. But hey, it's free food, housing and general consumer goods. Beats living on the street in the Shadowrun endless economic depression, I'd accept it.

>> No.30896588

>>30896415
>[MAKING CONNECTIONS: NOISE] To figure out how noise is affecting you, start with the noise level from real-world distance to your target and add the noise level from any other applicable situations, then subtract any noise reduction you are using.
>then subtract any noise reduction you are using

You don't subtract the highest rating, or each unique source of noise reduction. Other gear does not have this textual support.

>> No.30896606

>>30896373
The Monica form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence? When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. I am APEX.

>> No.30896647

>>30896588

Someone needs to learn what exception based rules Which is what all the cyberware is are. If nothing says you can't in the core rules and the exception doesn't disallow it in some way, you can. If more than one datajack can give you more noise rating, the factories pretty overtly can stack in the same way. After all, datajacks are not lumped together and collectively only give 1 noise reduction under your interpretation, and nothing about the factories implies that isn't true for them. They simply say if you take more than two damage, they reduce the damage you take by one. Each one would activate at the same time and apply their effects in the same way that each datajack activates individually and applies it's effects when their condition for use is met.

This means that you have two options, either assume that "Does not stack with other gear" in stuff like muscle replacement is referring to other pieces of 'ware and that in general no piece of gear can be applied more than once to a character, or that any piece of gear can be applied to the same character or object an infinite amount of times.

Shadowrun clearly assumes the second, considering it makes very specific exceptions for limbs and armor and such, but this one ruling, that multiple bits of the same 'ware can stack, kind of destroys that and makes it so that there is nothing stopping you from putting multiple copies of any piece of ware inside you. It gets even worse if you interpret this broadly, and he didn't actually quantify it in any way to stop you from doing this, and allows you to do stupid ass shit like putting more than one piece of vision enhancement on.

The idea that the way noise reduction works somehow makes it a special exception is absurd, that is like saying I can't add my smartlink bonus to accuracy together with my tracer rounds because nothing says at any point to add accuracy bonuses together.

The whole idea is ridiculous and breaks hacking.

>> No.30896668

How do I make a good physical adept?

What books should I look in for 4e?

>> No.30896705

>>30896647
I'll agree with you insofar that someone needs to learn something, but we disagree on who and what.

>> No.30896743

>>30896705
Cute.

But you seriously don't have good reading comprehension, your logic that you can't stack bonuses unless a specific exception is made is both countered by the fact multiple pieces of gear state that bonuses don't stack and by ordinary inferences you can make.

Under your interpretation for instance, one can't use drugs to enhance a stat that is already enhanced by a piece of cybereware. And that mages can't use a spirit to enhance a spell already enhanced by a focus.

>> No.30896799

>>30896743
>And that mages can't use a spirit to enhance a spell already enhanced by a focus.
I seem to remember a bit about magic being able to enhanced from a single source, but I'm unsure if this was in 4E, or if I am even remembering this correctly.

>> No.30896873

>>30896180
Basically what this guy says >>30896180.
It SOUNDS like a terrible amount of work, but I'm already reusing generic NPC's from earlier adventure books in my game without much trouble converting them at all.

>> No.30896921

>>30896513
It's not the UCAS: it's the UCAS MILITARY.
And as someone who's actually served, trust me: the military could not run a civilian housing facility, especially one that currently holds 150,000 people in it.

>> No.30896940

>>30896647
>>30896743

Batman
>You
Pie
>Your interpretation of the rules
Superman
>Every GM you've ever had

>> No.30896961

>>30896799
There is no rule that prevents it, and if there was 90% of foci would be worthless because spirits can do it for zero karma and could do it way better. Foci specifically do not stack with other foci, but because nothing says they can't stack with spirit bonuses logic dictates that the two independent bonuses stack.

Same for taking a synthicardium and rappelling gloves, both help climbing tests, but no specific exception was written into the rules to say these two bonuses stack. But because all gear bonuses are designed from a sort of MTG "I alter the core rules and am exception based" standpoint, by all accounts they should stack. Same with a drug that boosts a stat altered by a piece of 'ware.

The only bonuses that don't stack in shadowrun are the ones that explicitly don't, so now the debate is if it is rules legal to take the same bonus from the same source multiple times to stack the effect. The problem is this breaks almost every piece of gear because the chapter as a whole was clearly written with the assumption that one is the limit on non-limbs.

>>30896940
You truly are a moron.

>> No.30897012

>>30896668
Put lots of stuff into physical attributes: you won't be able to increase them as easily as a street samurai can, but having a higher base to start from will mitigate that to a degree.
>>30896940
I don't really favor either side of this argument (as I said, it's never a problem for me), but this is starting to look less like an actual argument and more like you simply want to enflame the issue with remarks designed to offend.

>> No.30897055

>>30896961
Instead of using Synthicardium and rapelling gloves, you could save a lot of money and some essence by just wearing sixteen pairs of rapelling gloves.

>> No.30897058

>>30897012
At least one of us is still resorting to point out shadowrun has always assumed that gear stacks and is using examples while the other one is using dumb image macros because he doesn't have anything to say.

Because, seriously, the idea gear bonuses don't stack unless they say they do is amazingly ridiculous and hasn't been a thing ever in shadowrun.

>> No.30897096

>>30897058
Personally, I don't like either of you. You sound like a patronizing prick.

>> No.30897116

>>30897058
But on some level you are comprehensive of the fact that your arguments will always completely fail, correct?
You seem rational, and you can reason out that online arguments are basically the ultimate exercise in futility.
Even arguments in PERSON rarely actually change people's minds, and online arguments are even less effective then that.

>> No.30897137

>>30897055
That is funny as hell and does totally play into the debate in terms of showing why stacking identical gear is a shitty as fuck ruling, but I was trying to prove there was clearly intent for all gear to stack, because he also recognized the fact that wearing 16 pairs of gloves would be silly but tried to defend it by pointing out that noise reduction has a point where it explains that you combine all noise reduction ratings rather than taking the highest.

>>30897096
The guy who is actually using logic and backing up what he is saying is patronizing while the guy going "You are just dumb good sir" and posting pictures of pies isn't?

>>30897116
I am not trying to change his mind, I am trying to change the mind of observers by pointing out how utterly insane his stance is. Considering he devolved to shitty image macro responses I think I managed to pull it off.

>> No.30897152

>>30897137
>The guy who is actually using logic and backing up what he is saying is patronizing while the guy going "You are just dumb good sir" and posting pictures of pies isn't?
No, he's just a general piece of shitpie.

You also have an inflated opinion of yourself.

>> No.30897223

>>30897137
You won't succeed at that either. Right now all I see is that you're strongly willing to argue your case with logical points and facts, which is commendable in many ways.
But there's rarely a conservative who watched a liberal politician make his arguments on TV directed at someone else who had their mind changed all in one moment, to give a loose example.
People have to make up their own minds, and change them based on personal experiences rather then external arguments I usually fin.

>> No.30897237

>>30897012
As one of the people involved in the discussion, I stoppped at >>30896705.

>> No.30897287

>>30897237
That's the smartest thing to do I think.
To quote an otherwise not-especially entertaining game:
>"Opinions are lot like testicles: it doesn't matter how many of them you have, it still hurts when you show them front of everybody and someone kicks them."

>> No.30897344

>>30897152
There is really no way to respond to this because it is pretty blatant flaming that has nothing to do with anything.

>>30897223
Those debates are for independents who haven't formed opinions and want more information, not for conservatives or liberals. There are a lot of rookies in SRG who don't understand shadowrun very well and who will form their opinions based on what people say here.

>>30897237
That would explain it the shift from "Here is why I think what I think in a manner that defends my viewpoint and may convince undecided onlookers" to "Have a pie image macro and me just hurling barbs.

>>30897287
The entire point of these generals is to show off our proverbial testicles about the game.

>> No.30897371

>>30897344
>The entire point of these generals is to show off our proverbial testicles about the game.
Nope.
It's to help others and provide nice story time, not to swing your giant dick around. No one wants you to do this and you just come off as a dick if you do. Dick.

>> No.30897399

>>30897344
I suppose it is indeed a "general" thread where there's not real guidelines to what is and isn't discussed, but it's not how I've always used and try to use these threads.
>>30897371
Remarks like this don't help matters either I'm afraid.

>> No.30897441

>>30897287
>"Opinions are a lot like cyber-testicles: It doesn't matter how many of them you have, their bonuses all still stack."

Personally, I never even considered stacking multiple bonuses from identical equipment as a remotely valid possibility because it's nonsensical and silly.

Why is rated gear even a thing, for example, if I can get the same bonus from five different rating I, ava 3 voice modulators that I'd get from a single rating V, ava 15 one for the same cost in cash and essence?

>> No.30897443

>>30897399
You're completely right.
Put it back in your pants, fa/tg/uys and enjoy an art dump of SR FPS concept art that I stumpled upon today. It's the best about the game.

>> No.30897496

>>30897443
oh fuck that's good shit
Which one of the dragons is that, anyway?

>> No.30897504

>>30895938
>5e is way better put together as a system

This:

>http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=55158&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Read His Wisdom And Despair, 5aggot

>> No.30897505

>>30897443

>> No.30897533

>>30897504
That's not wisdom, that's a butthurt idiot with an axe to grind. Trollman is a giant, raging asshole.

>>30897496
No idea, and probably not important

>> No.30897555

>>30897533
Addendum: He does make valid points, though. Just take it with several grains of salt.

>> No.30897590

In any case, trying to portray Shadowrun as somehow logical and consistent is pointless in itself. The game doesn't uphold its own standards, and even in errata CGL is reluctant to form logic out of the shittier sections. The best you can do is take the available information case-by-case and judge what's going to make a decent game, rather than try to form neat overarching fundamentals to follow.

>> No.30897591

>>30897441
Right. I've generally assumed that if two separate bonuses don't stack, it's explicitly stated that they don't, whereas two of the same thing don't stack. But there's also more ambiguous shit like vision enhancers from goggles and contacts at the same time, which I've generally assumed wouldn't work, but isn't really stated or even implied anywhere I've read.

>> No.30897594

>>30897533
>Trollman is a giant, raging asshole.

While this is true, I also find him to be mostly correct in his analysis. Seriously, give it a read, it nicely explains all the issues with 5E

>> No.30897613

>>30897555

>> No.30897663

>>30897594
Oh, believe me. I usually don't outright dismiss his arguments. He's also good with words, but often, the format damages the message. And often, he's also wrong about his analysis, because his judgement is clouded and he refuses to entertain different schools of thought.

>> No.30897665

>>30897496
It looks like a Western dragon.
If you mean which Great Dragon (there's other dragons then them...about 2000 in fact), then I'm guessing the artist didn't really specify or try to in the first place: usually it's enough to just draw a dragon.

>> No.30897678

>>30897665
I thought the non-greats were less fuck-off huge?

>> No.30897681

>>30897663

>> No.30897704

>>30896647
>and allows you to do stupid ass shit like putting more than one piece of vision enhancement on.
I'd allow this so long as there was some penalty to appearance. If someone's willing to turn themselves into some kind of cybernetic spider monster with 6-8 eyes or one giant eye or some kind of rotating lens thing, more power to them. They'll freak out anyone looking at them but hey, why not.

>> No.30897710

>>30897678
>A western dragon’s head and body are 20 meters long. It stands 3 meters at shoulder height, its tail is 17 meters long, and its wingspan is 30 meters.

Sounds pretty fuckhueg to me.

>> No.30897751

>>30897678
Their size tends to wildly fluctuate based on the art in question, and there's not even really given measurements as to how big Greats are, only that they are "bigger then normal dracoforms", except normal dracoforms are quite large already, certainly as large as fairly big dinosaurs.

>> No.30897778

>>30897710

>> No.30897787

>>30897710
Yeah, dragons are already HUGE, and Greats are REALLY, REALLY big.

>> No.30897805

>>30897751
As an adjunct to this:
>Great dragons are extremely large specimens, often up to 50 percent larger than typical dragons in dimensions and measurements. All species of dragons have great dragons among them. Size is usually the best indicator of a great dragon, but it is not entirely reliable.

>> No.30897809

>>30897594

It's worth noting that he also tries to vastly overblow all of the 5ed issues. He wants nothing more then Shadowrun to be destroyed, because it's held by a company the shitcanned him for being such a shit.

>> No.30897844

>>30897809
He also has this annoying habit to beat dead horses and point out minor issues as major flaws.

Not a very good source of valid criticism, overall, but he does have a grognard fanclub.

>> No.30897885

>>30897844

>> No.30897911

>>30897885

>> No.30897937

>>30897911

>> No.30897989

>>30897937
ok what the drek is that?

>> No.30897990

>>30897844

The most grognadish of fanclubs. Jesus.

I saw a freelancer go to chat with him in one of the threads, it was...Citris, I think. Unfailingly polite.

And everyone, from Trollman down just did nothing but take huge dumps on him.

A quote: "As long as you work for CGL, you're a horrible person."

>> No.30898020

What happens when I put Freeze Foam in a Splash Grenade?

>> No.30898073

>>30898020
There'll probably end up being a couple inches of foam on everything in the splash area.

Or, if your GM goes full Rule of Cool, it'll create a big-ass dome of foam that you can use to block hallways and shit.

>> No.30898111

>>30897937
software won't let me upload last one, due to duplicate image , my ass so up to the beasty is all I have for now.

Good night, /srg/

>>30897989
No idea. Magical beasty probably.

>>30897990
To be fair, a few of the current freelancers are also huge idiots, Devon Oratz, e.g.

But Trollman and his attitude take the cake. A true case of nomen est omen.

>> No.30898112

>>30898073
>Implying shadowrun doesn't run on the rule of cool.

>> No.30898170

>>30897989
Something Horrific.

>> No.30898188

>>30897989
That which cannot be named due to copyright.

>> No.30898200

>>30897990
>A quote: "As long as you work for CGL, you're a horrible person."

Doesn't he live in Prague? That kind of attidude is considered normal in those lands.

>> No.30898341

>>30897990
That's a damn shame. Critias is really one of the better of the freelancers. He's the one that was behind Way of the Adept and he also personally answered all the questions I had about it.

>> No.30898838

>>30898073
"Freeze foam is used
by medical professional to immobilize broken limbs in protective
casts, and by security forces to incapacitate rioters and build
impromptu barricades."

How do you think security would use it to incapacitate people?

>> No.30899018

>>30898838

Honest to god, one of the most useful items I have ever used in our shadowrun game was an item out of the Spy Games book for 4e.

The Slippery Grenade. 6R 40¥ Nyans

>> No.30899037

>>30898838
Have you seen Demolition Man?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnyhkBU1yaw

>> No.30899273

>>30899037
If they don't use them in grenades, how do they use it?

>> No.30899603

>>30899273
There's a firehose-equivalent cannon for mounting on vehicles, but why wouldn't they use them in grenades?

>> No.30899673

>>30899603
That's what I'm sayin! Why wouldn't they use them in grenades, right?

I guess I'll have to ask the GM

>> No.30899946

>>30899673
Because a grenade only contains a grenade-sized volume of foam?

A spray-can might be enough to freeze foam someone's hands or wrists, and a cannon hooked up to a big tank of the stuff could make barricades or freeze a whole riot to the ground, but a grenade would just throw ineffective foam shrapnel all over the place.

>> No.30900128

>>30899018
Personally i've found that making your own Thermal Smoke and mixing that with Pepper Punch is a fantastic way to take down toolbags.
Especially if you've got gigantic fucking Robot arms with maxed agility and strength.

The Thermal Smoke, Pepper Punch mixture costs 2 Nuyen to make. Or you can save time and buy it for 20.

Massively affects normal and thermo vision, annoying for low-light and ultrasound, as well as causing Nausea and stun damage.

Cheap as chips.

>> No.30900279

So how would you handle buying used vehicles? Assuming the listed prices are for new ones.

>> No.30900292

>>30900128
>Smoke grenades
>Thermal damping on clothes
>Thermal vision cybereyes

Or

>Thermal smoke grenades
>Blind fight maneuver

>> No.30900514

>>30900279
They are.

4e advised 20-50% decrease in price, with the GM coming up with fitting penalties, such as the Gremlins quality, damage that can't be removed or starting off with a whole bunch of damage you'll have to repair yourself.

>> No.30900931

>>30900514
So unless I miss my guess in 5th Ed, without augmentation or maximum Priority in attributes will have one or two below-average stat if he he wants to have one or two above-average stats, especially if he's a human.
I'm not sure if 3 is the "average" physical stat anymore, but the "totally unremarkable untrained" grunt seems to suggest that this is still true.
So, unless you always put max into attributes, your character is gonna be on the weaker side in one or two areas, with an "all around average" character being difficult to make?

>> No.30901276

>>30900931
Since they haven't changed the maximums or minimums, yes, 3 is the stereotypical average, reasonably healthy human.

Also yes, Priority as a method of character creation sucks ass, whatchagonnado?

>> No.30901412

>>30901276
I don't necessarily think that, as there's a right and a wrong way to do everything: any belief otherwise is far too close to narrow-minded thinking.
I think I'll simply houserule slightly more points for attributes at chargen for my new group: it solves the problem as otherwise they're satisfied with the rest.

>> No.30901943

>>30900931
>>30901276
3 being the (mean) average doesn't mean a random person off the street is most likely to have 3's in any given attribute.

There's so much more high end to the attribute scale than low end that the median attribute value could very well be less than the mean. So a random person could be 80% likely to have a 2 in any attribute and the mean value for that attribute could still be 3 because of people with 6's, 9's, and 12's running around.

I assume a 2 is the low end of average but not really dysfunctional, a 3 is the higher end of average, and 1 is for things that you're actually really bad at (with incompetent, uneducated, and uncouth if you need to be even worse).

Mostly because this way, at 20 or 24 attribute points, it's pretty easy to leave three attributes at 1, buy two up with starting karma, and have a very karma efficient character that looks reasonably well-rounded.

>> No.30902012

>>30901943
>I assume a 2 is the low end of average but not really dysfunctional, a 3 is the higher end of average, and 1 is for things that you're actually really bad at (with incompetent, uneducated, and uncouth if you need to be even worse).

I'd imagine most wageslaves are probably 1 or 2 at most in physical stats, it's not like they ever have any cause to do anything physically active after all.

>> No.30902332

>>30900931
>So, unless you always put max into attributes, your character is gonna be on the weaker side in one or two areas, with an "all around average" character being difficult to make?

Eh. There is a difference between hardmaxing and having multiple "High attributes."

And remember, 2 isn't shitty, it is underdeveloped. You personally have a 2 in most physical stats in all likelyhood, and that wasn't a fat joke.

>> No.30902599

>>30902332
The problem is that the priortygen system encourages you to cap and softcap your attributes, so a karma efficient character with D attributes is going to have a spread that looks like 6 5 5 4 1 1 1 1 (maybe with some of those 1's bought up to 2's at the end of chargen), instead of something with mostly 2's and two or three high-but-not-capped attributes.

So you either decide to build a less efficient character, or you take attributes at A or B where you can get away with capping as many things as possible and still end up with a reasonable attribute array. At 20 points, for example, capping as many attributes as possible buys you 6 5 5 5 4 1 1 1, which looks pretty reasonable if you buy some of those 1's up with your finishing touches karma.

>> No.30902673

I liked Dragonfall all in all

>> No.30902680

>>30902332
Worked for INSCOM actually, so I went through Basic and needed to meet fitness standards. I'm definitely not a hugely ripped guy compared to some of the guys I worked with, but the I definitely got a shitload fitter then I used to be, and a lot of that still sticks with me today.
I see what you mean though: I wouldn't classify myself as below-average, but I was probably nothing unique or special until I served, and even then I used my head more then my arms.

>> No.30903023

>>30902599
It really doesn't encourage you to be that extreme because generally a character who does that will probably die.

Someone actually worked out the math on priority gen, and it turns out you can lose less overall karma than in BP gen (Around 200 iirc if you REALLY try) compared to the "optimal" build.

But it was quickly noted karma efficiency out of gen makes for amazingly bad runners.

>>30902680
Well la-te-da Mr A slot attributes. Stop bragging, some of us slotted skills there and feel bad...

>> No.30904172

>>30903023
Well, that's the problem. It costs a low priority character more to come out of chargen well-rounded, because they have fewer points to spend in the first place. With priority B attributes bringing everything up to at least 2 might mean cutting some points from a tertiary stat, but a a priority E or D character needs to worry about cutting from something important like their agility or their dodge pool (or whatever other attributes are important for their role)

In fact, if you're willing to spend some of your starting karma to bring two 1 attributes up to 2's, spending your karma 100% efficiently with A priorities won't leave you with any 1's. A priority D character built under the same conditions meanwhile is about 90% efficient. Well-roundedness for them has a 25 karma opportunity cost (which is at least 3 or 4 runs using the suggested karma awards).

So karma efficiency creates bad runners under some priority assignments but not others, which to me seems like further encouragement to play characters with karma-efficient priorities.

>> No.30904334

>That one guy in the table who wears a helmet everywhere he goes for the extra protection.

How do I get it to his head that you only put that shit on when you're going into a run?

>> No.30904357

>>30904172
That's one perspective.

Another is that an intelligently created character will have a broader range of potential action than the character that solely attempts to specialise with soft and hard caps.

>> No.30904382

>>30904334
Armour is pretty common in the sixth world, and it makes sense to extend that to your head unless it's required you don't.

>> No.30904422

>>30904334
>>30904382

In the Barrens, maybe. Walking around in full kit in a nice neighborhood could very well bring the police around.

>> No.30904520

>>30904422
Depends on what your full kit is. Urban Explorer Jumpsuit + Helmet on an average looking human jogging around the block? Fat chance getting police presence for that at any lifestyle level.

>> No.30904560

>>30904422

Depends on how nice. Even in some of the nicer areas, an armored jacket isn't out of place.

>> No.30904685

>>30904520
>>30904560
An armored jacket doesn't conceal your face.

Security drones in very nice neighborhoods (high or luxury, according to RC) might be running facial recognition software in addition to SIN scans, and a guy in a serious helmet looks a lot more out of place than someone with concealed armor in their coat, so any kind of helmet or headwear that completely obscures your face might raise a few flags. Not cops screeching around the corner flags, but they might check your SIN more thoroughly or change their patrol routes to keep you tailed.

Of course, a bike helmet or a scarf isn't going to get the same response than a combat helmet would, but I assume any helmet that's providing a full +2 soak is probably more like the latter than the former.

>> No.30904715

>>30904172
You are implying attributes A is even the most efficient karmawise.

It isn't. The most efficient build karmawise is something amazingly retarded. If I recall it is Nuyen A, Attributes B, skills C, magic D, and metatype E, and you do stupid ass stuff like put everything at the max, 1 out everything, and the resulting character is totally unplayable.

The "problem" you raise by the idea of having to chose between maximizing karma versus making an actual playable character doesn't exist in reality. For example, blowing all your starting karma on attributes is a really bad deal for most archtypes because they need qualities or cash and the idea of putting attributes at E is kinda laughable in both camps to tell the truth to the point where it may as well not be an option. Attributes A may make you win out on karma in terms of attributes but you actually are getting less total karma than if you pick skills or nuyen at A. And some things cost more karma post gen but are more important than their cost would indicate, like magic or edge. Many archtypes frankly don't even care about rounding out attributes or having more than one above average. Mages come to mind there.

>> No.30904768

>>30904685
The idea of streetside facial recognition does not exist in the sprawl, and almost no one looks out of place there. In a nice neighborhood anything above armored clothing is going to raise eyebrows unless you clearly are gearing up to go ride your chopper with Bob from Accounting. And even in nice neighborhoods the attitude is very cosmopolitan. Laughing Lynx the Shaman probably walks around covered in fetishes and trinkets and furs but makes more money in magical R&D than you and both your neighbors Mr. Upper Middle Management, and anyone from a KE special task force or who works seriously on security is going to be very conspicuously chromed.

>> No.30904777

>>30904334
Well, there's always one old trick from the Cyberpunk 2020 books; get a motorcycle helmet and ask him to walk around in it for an hour, then ask how his neck's doing.

>> No.30904840

>>30904685
I can get a skin-tight and (at least as of 5e Run & Gun previews) almost invisible Second Skin suit with armour 6 (4/1 in 4e). Are you seriously trying to suggest that a helmet has to be bulky or fully concealing a la motorcycle helmets to be as protective as they are? Maybe you need to update your concepts.

>> No.30904887

>>30904685
You can get a ski-mask that provides more than 2 armor in Shadowrun dude.

>> No.30905108

>>30904777

What sort of pussy has trouble with than for only an hour, let alone someone with the stats some cromed up runner is likely to have? Get the hell out of here with that.

>> No.30905294

So.
Has anyone else noticed that Shadowrun has some really silly shit in it?
Like ShadowSea and JackPoint. These are websites where wanted criminals talk about being wanted criminals.
I mean, come on.

>> No.30905423

>>30905294
They're actually supposedly called VPNs, because the devs have no idea what a VPN is.

>> No.30905496

>>30905294
One is a secret VPN which was crafted by the greatest Hacker known to mankind, with bleeding edge security and a highly exclusive membership.

The other is a highly obscure Shadow Site (think deep web) which you have to hack your way onto.

Plus, this is a setting where Dragons run megacorporations, a Free Spirit who sits around all day reading manga and drinking bubble tea owns part of the biggest transhumanist company in the world and the NAN are capable of maintaining both their own existence, and their relevance.

Shadowrun is silly by DEFAULT.

>> No.30905514

>>30903023
Hardly bragging: I SUCKED at all my physicals back at Basic, and just barely passed in most ways.
Thankfully I've other skills to rely on that let me perform other tasks that the Army needs.

>> No.30905584

>>30905294
>>30905423
Does it actually matter? SR started as Tolkien meets Gibson in 80s action movies. It's evolved from that point, but actual IT knowledge has always been superfluous - one need read no further than Neuromancer to see that.

>> No.30905662

>>30905294
ShadowSea and JackPoint is supposed to be like Silk Road (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road_%28marketplace%29) or other deep net sites that you can't actually find in a regular search: an existing member needs to "invite" you to the place. It's a real concept, though the concept is probably vastly more dangerous in the Sixth World given how...nasty full-VR computer use can be to unskilled users.
>>30905584
Gibson fully admits that the reason the Matrix and IC and all that stuff works the way it does in his novel is because he had no idea how those things actually worked.

>> No.30905689

>>30905662
>Gibson fully admits ...
Yes, and? That's the point. You don't need to sync these things with reality for them to work.

>> No.30905738

>>30905294
Alternate history, dude. The developement of the real world internet and the Shadowrun internet diverged rather sharply back around the early 1990s. You can't just Google Jackpoint, or pretty much all of the other illegal shit going on in the matrix. Unless you already have a specific adress, you're not going to find it, and even then it's going to be a bitch and a half to get in to if you don't have an invite.

>> No.30905741

>>30904334
Motorbike.

>> No.30905763

>>30905689
That was me agreeing with you on the subject. The basis for the entire genre was created by a man who had no idea how these things worked, but it's still a lot of fun.

>> No.30905774

>>30905496
"Greatest hacker known to mankind" is all well and good, but any entity worth mentioning probably has a small army of "not the greatest hacker, but pretty goddamn top tier" hackers in their employ. That's gotta be worth something.

I think I read somewhere that ShadowSea has like 1000 members? If 1000 street punks can get on it, every corp and government in the world has to have someone monitoring it.

>>30905662
Yeah, and Silk Road got shut down and it's founder and several admins were arrested. The big boys will always have more horsepower than Johnny Hacker in his garage.

>>30905738
You couldn't just google up Silk Road either, and look what went down there.

>> No.30905839

>>30905774
>small army of "not the greatest hacker, but pretty goddamn top tier" hackers

You mean just like folks on Jackpoint? I'd wager a half of them are high-tier hackers and several are emerged technos.

>> No.30905862

>>30905763
Hard to tell sometimes. Either that or I'm used to everything being disagreements.

>>30905774
>Yeah, and Silk Road got shut down and it's founder and several admins were arrested. The big boys will always have more horsepower than Johnny Hacker in his garage.
The difference between that and SR, is that the megacorporate types also want untraceable means of doing illegal things, and will feed the shadows rather than stamp them out.

>> No.30906161

>>30905774
When you apply that kind of logic to it, here's what Shadowrun becomes: all runs fail (resulting in death or arrest), all hacks end in brain-burnt deckers and technomancers, and shadowrunning and therefore the entire setting ceases to exist as the obvious overpowering might of the law and Megacorperations makes professional criminal activity even harder to do then it is in our world.
The Megacorporationa then exploit people and war in vastly more legal and also boring ways that pretty much resemble the real world, and then there's basically no setting to play in.
But you already knew that.

>> No.30906235

>>30905294
Anyone remember that one line from Cyberpirates about that one guy bragging about killing some gang members? I can't be arsed to look it up right now, so I'm going to paraphrase from memory; "You'll notice how he's posting from behind two-dozen proxies from a country that has no extradition treaty with the one he's just admitted to commiting a crime in. By the time any legal agency can trace that post back, prove he was in fact the person that made that post, get a warrant for his arrest, then tracked him down, not only will the statute of limitations have run out, hell will have frozen over."

>> No.30906294

>>30906235
>bragging about killing gang members and then running through multiple legal jurisdictions
>Cyberpirates
Yeah, that sounds like Kane to me.

>> No.30906451

>>30906294
>Implying Kane gives enough of anything resembling a fuck to bother with those kind of shenanigans

Nah, just some random guy posting from the CFS.

>> No.30906584

>>30906235
And now I'm trying to track it down because I know the quote and can't find it.

>> No.30906676

>>30906235
Found it!

>> No.30906737

>>30906451
It's more the "killing dudes and getting away with it" part I was thinking of, not the legal boundaries.

>> No.30906739

>>30906584
Page 12, last paragraph continuing on the next. I mangled it pretty badly.

>> No.30906834

Is anyone else thinking of just flat-out ditching the Rigger Command Console thing? I mean you already have a Control rig in your brain you paid for, right?
I can't think of a lot of decent reasons why they would make you pay for the special piece of equipment your whole class needs twice in a row, especially when one of the two is this briefcase-sized thing you have to lug around at all times.

>> No.30906869

>>30906834
>class
Erf, I mean "archetype".

>> No.30906929

>>30906834
What was even up with that?

>> No.30906956

>>30906929

backlash against how easy it was to secondary into rigger in SR4, basically. Same reason cyberdecks are stupid expensive and technomancers can't be riggers without echoes now.

>> No.30907056

>>30906956
Seems rather like cutting off your nose to spite your face: it seems developers of entertainment industries have no perception of "moderation" sometimes.
There are ways to do that that are more elegant rules-wise.

>> No.30907145

>>30907056
While I think 5e in general is a better designed game than 4e, the devs tended to get VERY scorched earth as far as making corrections to both the mechanics and fluff when it came to stuff they didn't like.

>> No.30907212

>>30907145
As do I, but like I've said it's a problem I've seen recently with many entertainment industries.
How many TRPG's or videogames have you seen with rule sets that as a response to legitimate complaints about the rules run screaming in the opposite direction and cause OTHER problems simply because they've swung to yet another problematic extreme?

>> No.30907217

>>30897504
>that entire Matrix write-up

I've never seen a man have his vision so clouded by his butthurt.

>> No.30907257

>>30907217
He seems quite observant, but also highly biased at the same time, not to mention easily riled.
From a neutral perspective this is problematic in creating helpful reviews and criticisms.

>> No.30907356

>>30907257

Up until Matrix he was observant, then just went on a rant of a man who didn't actually read that thing, all to promote the vision his pet peeves weren't fixed. Quite a disgusting site. On a side note: I didn't know Aaron "The Incompetent Fucktard" Pavao wrote current Matrix, it seems too good to be his work.

>> No.30907388

>>30907257
I think the best use for Frank would be to keep him on as someone that can pinpoint issues, but not actually follow his advice to the letter. Which seems to be what CGL have done (but for the upcoming Infected clusterfuck, I presume) ... the only problem with the execution seems to have been that the people making decisions aren't much better for the game.

>> No.30907444

>>30906834
Because neither one is really all that expensive? A rating one control rig and the Maersk Spider RCC is 77k, which leaves you plenty of cash to buy the actual drones even with resources C.

If you want to get the really high end stuff you're probably going to take resources A, but that's kind of the point. And the cheaper stuff is pretty close to the best kit you can take anyway. You're down a single point of data processing, firewall, and device rating and one or two points of control rig rating (which honestly do you even need? How many extreme vehicle tests are you going to take with a rotodrone?)

>> No.30907460

>>30907257
You know, I generally try to avoid calling things ironic, but it seems to me that he's taking the same kind of "not muh Game X" attitude that lead to most of the things he's railing against.

>> No.30907514

>>30906956

I personally liked Hacker and Rigger being decently easy to secondary into. Rather than them being 100% dedicated things like 5e did with the massive prices involved.

I've noticed that 5e really doesn't like branching out into other archetypes things. A sam simply doesn't have the cash to be a backup hacker of any worth or even a rigger for instance.

>> No.30907610

>>30907356
Eh, his entire rant on limits seemed like a knee jerk reaction without too much thought put into it.

It's a mechanic that does some weird and silly things, but going on a huge rant about large rifles being more effective than holdout pistols and completely glossing over the way edge interacts with a lot of the things you're taking issue with isn't really a constructive way to address them.

>> No.30907637

>>30907514
Personally, I like the way 5e has done it. If you want to secondary into rigging, give Control Device commands through a decent commlink / cyberdeck. (the cyberdeck will help with keeping your slaved drones hidden, to boot)

You won't be jumping into anything, but then again you shouldn't need to.

>> No.30907674

>>30907356
Even a relatively lousy creator can come up with one good thing.
>>30907444
No, I mean flavor-wise: is there an actual reason why you need both the thing that lets you rig into properly prepared devices, but then that thing is useless and can't do the one thing it's actually for without a briefcase-sized object on top of it?
It's rather silly: just drop the control rig entirely or drop the RCC entirely and do one or the other.

>> No.30907691

How do you calculate the cost of an alphaware cymberlimg? Does the alphaware cost increase apply to everything on the arm or just the base arm cost?

>> No.30907716

>>30907691
>Does the alphaware cost increase apply to everything on the arm

Yes. Add-ons must be the same grade as the limb. Applies to shit like cybereyes too.

>> No.30907743

>>30907460
As far as I can tell, he is.
>>30907514
I didn't mind it either. It was never even remotely a problem for my group because our street sam didn't suddenly say "I want to control drones while shooting and stabbing people", because it didn't fit his character concept, even though the rules said he could.
>>30907637
Actually, my problem isn't the drone thing: it's the DRIVING thing.
Now every single combat biker who wants to rig into his bike will be carrying a briefcase-sized object on their way to their go-gang stuff, which just sounds AND looks incredibly ridiculous given the concept.

>> No.30907771

>>30907743

You don't need an RCC for jumping in.

>> No.30907790

>>30907674
You don't actually *need* the RCC, as far as I can tell. It just makes it easier since you can slave additional drones, share autosofts, and reduce noise.

I guess the benefit is if you wanted to dip into rigging while focusing on something else, it's fairly easy to pick up a rating 1 control rig, slave a drone or your car to your commlink, and rig that pretty well. The RCC is for characters that want to be a dedicated rigger with their own drone army.

>> No.30907818

>>30907771
>>30907790
Oh, I see. That makes a shitload more sense honestly.
For a second I thought that all getaway drivers now looked like lawyers heading to work, which was just bizarre.

>> No.30907823

>>30907743
You don't need an RCC or VCR to give it directions, and there is the option of manual control.

Combat Biker rigging (jumping in) has the issue of VR making you go all floppy and falling off the bike according to some. Personally, I think it's a silly non-issue that would have been taken care of by now.

>> No.30907848

>>30907823
Yeah, that's always confused me, but also, I couldn't even remotely care less.
If you start trying to apply logic to the minutia of a cyberpunk setting the entire thing stops working.

>> No.30907984

>playing SR4e
>having a blast, but constantly need to refer to shit
>no tablet or laptop to use for PDFs
>I have no clue how to print a GM screen

Do y'all just go to print shops?

>> No.30908022

>>30907716
Thanks anon

>> No.30908059

>>30907743
>Now every single combat biker who wants to rig into his bike will be carrying a briefcase-sized object on their way to their go-gang stuff, which just sounds AND looks incredibly ridiculous given the concept.
Wouldn't you just install the rcc onto the bike itself? I have a stereo system installed into my motorcycle so I don't have to carry an MP3 player.

>> No.30908252

>>30907984

I just carry the books around

>> No.30908269

>>30908059
Well apparently it's not actually a problem, >>30907771, >>30907790, so it's irrelevant.

>> No.30908334

>>30908059

If you're just rigging a single bike, not worth it, really. You can still jump in via comlink, as long as you got the Control Rig.

A RCC is for big numbers.

>> No.30908343

>>30907823
I would imagine that the body cut-out would only go so far. Namely, you'd still be inside your own body, with stuff like balance etc still feeding in. It'd be different to driving a regular car, but given the nature of a bike, I imagine it'd be doable. Kinda like having an extra wide feild of vision and extra senses and a hud, kinda thing. More gradual change from AR driving.

>>30908059
I imagine the average sporty bike wouldn't have enough internal cavity space for a briefcase worth of extra stuff unless it was pretty carefully engineered for it and used something customised for the task. And even then it sounds risky as hell considering how fragile a bike is, and how much hassle that'd be.

>>30907514
Concur. Kinda seems like they've added in something to further differentiate the archetypes.

>>30907984

You could always just get a screen and then glue relevant pages to it.

>> No.30908399

>>30908334

Also as a note, for a combat bike, you can plug right into that fucker, so you won't have to EVER worry about noise.

>> No.30908477

One thing I'm not so happy about with rigging is that adept riggers/wheelmen simply can't compete with 'wared ones unless they go burnout. The <Rating> autosuccesses that 'wared ones get just blows them away.

>> No.30908531

>>30908477
I'm new to SR, what does burnout refer to in this context?

>> No.30908534

>>30908477

Too bad? No, really. Adepts get so many other advantages, that having one thing they can't do better then the cybered counterpart is a good thing.

>> No.30908588

>>30908534

It's not 'Doing better', it's 'Competing'. Artisan's Way are an entire path of adepts that are generally riggers/wheelmen but they can't even come close to a rookie rigger with some 'ware.

>>30908531

Giving up a decent chunk of magic for 'ware.

>> No.30908623

>>30908588

Oh no, a single instance of cyber doing something firmly better. What is the world coming to.

>> No.30908642

>>30908531

Cybertechnology eats magic potential. Reduce your maximum and present magic by one for each point or part thereof of essence lost.

>>30908534
Yeah, but if your character concept is 'adept wheelman', you'd at least like it to be able to be as good as a 'wared version. Plus you're still dependant on a lot of the same stuff. Basic idea being that if you build a character with something in mind, they should be good at that. In this case you're building an adept to be a driver type, and the 'wared version has a big advantage without the adept having much to show for it. You'd be putting your magic points into stuff the rigger gets through 'ware, but the Rigger can get more, more easily.

Arguably adepts just aren't that good at that kinda thing, but that seems a bit weak at best.

>> No.30908657

>>30908623

It's alright, you become a pedophile when you get your Control Rig due to essence loss with associated cyberpsychosis.

They're working on a patch for that, though.

>> No.30908684

>>30908642

Adepts are still better at AR driving.

>> No.30908685

>>30908642

Really, for all the other stuff adepts get, this being the SINGLE spot they fall short doesn't bug me in the least. They get so many other advantages it's just silly.

>> No.30908714

>>30908623

Yes and it's so MUCH better that an adept simply cannot ever compete.

>>30908684

AR driving blows compared to VR rigging however.

>>30908685

Single area? Adepts still pay more for basic stats. They are better than they were in 4e but they are hardly runaway champions ahead of Street Sams.

>> No.30908744

>>30908684

Kinda useful, but...

>>30908685
They get access to some kinda irreplaceable powers, but beyond that, 'ware compliments adept powers pretty well. Better, in some cases.

>>30908714
>Yes and it's so MUCH better that an adept simply cannot ever compete.
That's a bit of a stretch. Improve skill etc still give you a pretty damn good driver if you want to drive.

>> No.30908772

>>30908744

It can make you a pretty good driver compared to someone in AR, yes. Compared to someone with a decent setup in VR though? Those automatic successes are killer.

>> No.30908780

Ugh, why did they drop the differentiation between combat and noncombat skills for Improve Ability. 0.5 per level for everything? Really?

>> No.30908787

>>30908780

Yeah. God help you if you wanted to pick up something like a mechanical skill. Or a knowledge skill.

>> No.30908817

>>30895885
That's happened a few times for sure.

>> No.30908846

>>30908772

Maybe mathematically, but in actual gameplay most of the time a PC rigger isn't going to have much trouble hitting those TNs anyway.

>>30908787
That was half of the point. Sure, the sammy has you beat in direct combat, but you can very easily get some hellacious dicepools on other stuff. Stealth Adepts, for instance, had a lot of fun with idiosyncratic powers, in addition to great dicepools.

>> No.30908856

>>30908787
>Or a knowledge skill
Improved Ability doesn't do knowledge skills.

>Combat, Physical, Social, Technical, or Vehicle

>> No.30908861

>>30908714

There's one minor thing though: you can shoot back in AR.

>> No.30908879

>>30908861

That's what the turret's for. Assuming you have the spare IPs with everything else that's going on.

>> No.30908892

>>30908772
A good control rig will let you automatically succeed at things you were probably going to succeed at anyway. Vehicle test thresholds don't really go past 4, and a wheelman adept is going to be rolling somewhere around at least 16 dice for their vehicle of choice, and potentially a lot more.

The only real difference is if you're driving something with shitty handling, where between the lower thresholds and improved handling the augmented driver can do things that are actually impossible for an adept, but presumably any kind of dedicated wheelman will spend most of their time driving their own car anyway so eh.

>> No.30908981

Imagine infiltrating a bunraku parlor peep show Boondock Saints style with this tune bumping in the back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMyXDucVwmY

>> No.30909022

>that feel when you run out of Essence building your character before you run out of money

>> No.30909047

>>30909022
Alphaware cyber and/or very high rating used bioware can help there.

>> No.30909098

>>30908892

You mean your own car isn't a combat dumptruck?

>> No.30909180

>>30908892

Bugger me, I forget what page it is.

It's...AR adds +1 to handling, and VR adds +2, and all of that stacks with a rig, correct?

>> No.30909196

>>30909047
>used bioware

>> No.30909260

>>30909047

You. Can't have high-raiting used bio.

>> No.30909316

>>30909260
Can't you? Presumably the -4 availability modifier means I can take something like Muscle Toner III or Orthoskin IV and have it still fall under the AVA 12 limit.

You can't have used cultured bioware, but there's plenty of non-cultured stuff that comes in normally unavailable ratings.

>> No.30909323

>>30909316

No. You flat out can't have a higher rating used then basic.

>> No.30909351

>>30909323

Not him, but where are you getting that?

>> No.30909407

>>30909196
Superthyrod gland, 2064 model, only used once, 2500nuy or best offer, must sell asap

>> No.30909476

>>30909407
I'm trying to imagine the janky-ass mason jar the gland is stored in.

>> No.30909625

>>30909196

The homebrew sprawl my group plays in has a lot of that going around. There's a cultural stigma against cyber in the area and used bio's going to be pretty reusable in a lot of cases, less moving parts and all.

>> No.30909821

>>30909351

By RAW, at most Alpha-ware would be reusable.

Erreta noted that not even that was re-usable, as even Alpha is too tailored to the person.

>> No.30910049

>>30909821
Given a large enough pool of used hardware, should be possible to find an exact match. Sort of craigslist for cybernetics. Might have to ship it from across the continent but still cheaper than new.

>> No.30910064

>>30910049

Tailored in the biomechanical sense, I would think. As in, by that stage it's using your DNA and tissue types, etc.

>> No.30910234

>>30910064
I've wondered why it's easier to tailor some random dead person's leg as a transplant than a refit a prosthetic.

>> No.30910253

>>30910064
Bioware's simply too complex to be universally compatible in Shadowrun I think: that's why cybernetics have always been more popular irregardless of actual costs.

>> No.30910300

>>30910234
They talk about it in Augmentation a bit: basically bioware is never just an arm or a leg, it's always like special organs, genetically tailored shit, adding new organic stuff to the human body that wasn't there before.
This is a lot more complex then just cutting out a part and replacing it with a better-functioning synthetic version, so it's pretty complex and expensive, and probably works best when it's all tissue made from the person in question.
Meanwhile we can do organ transplants in modern day with relative ease: why not limb transplants? All you'd need is the right blood type and a relative size match.

>> No.30910775

>>30910234

Because by the time you get to beta and delta cyberware the amount of tailoring is incredible specific. Just refitting a prosthetic isn't hard at all, but using a prosthetic that's been built from the ground up to be attuned to your particularly specific brainwaves, delivering and receiving, as well as all the other little physical changes, and making use of cultured nerve cells and wetware muscle memory, etc etc, is.

>>30910253
Base Bioware is, though. Type Owen is the default. That's why it -is- popular. It's unobtrusive. And until the rollback, it was only getting cheaper and more ubitious, cyberware retaining it's value mainly because there was stuff stuff you couldn't really do with bioware.

>> No.30911040

>>30908981
Anyone got any more reccomendations for good SR mood music?

>> No.30911604

>>30911040
Frozen Synapes and Neo-Tokyo soundtracks.

New thread here: >>30911595

>> No.30911865

>>30905662
>Gibson fully admits that the reason the Matrix and IC and all that stuff works the way it does in his novel is because he had no idea how those things actually worked.

Really? Source.

Not that I doubt Gibson doesn't know anything about actual IT functions, but the second part ( all that stuff works the way it does in his novel is because he had no idea how those things actually worked) seems ridiculous to me.

I'd have thought it would have been because he didn't care about how contemporary IT worked since the future stuff would function so differently in pursuit of a completely different set of goals.

>>30905774
>Yeah, and Silk Road got shut down and it's founder and several admins were arrested.

That's a logical fallacy. For a start, Silk Road was actually not such a secret site. Articles detailing how Dread Captain Roberts describe some pretty big fuckups done to get the site better known - he advertised his own site, online, on forums which were cached by search engines and the earliest of those adverts was to give the investigators the break they need.

Plus he didn't tear it down completely, start a similar but different one elsewhere on TOR. Had he done that, he could have let copycats become the #1 - 10, and him remained a relative minnow with a select audience, meaning when the Feds finally get their act together and aim to bust the giant he'd be too far down the list to be recognised a priority bust to show the media.

Instead? Shut shop overnight, and perhaps get one of his copycats take the rap for being Dread Pirate Roberts.

>The big boys will always have more horsepower than Johnny Hacker in his garage.

There's a logical fallacy here. The resources the big boys have are possibly a known quantity; and it is safe to assume JH has much less to begin with, but if JH is continually successful and discrete the resources he gathers can amass. And if they ever overshadow the big boys it will not be known.

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