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[ERROR] No.30697852 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Will 40k ever fix the "Walker vs MC" curbstomp?

Walkers, even dedicated CC walkers, will almost always lose against MC. And even outside of that, one lolmeltagunthateveryoneowns will one hit a walker while needing 2-5 or so hits to take down a MC. "B-b-b-but poisons counter MC!" Yea not everyone has access to poison, while everyone owns shit that will rape AV12

Knights dont count since they're super heavy

>> No.30697895

Theres potential for them to. Depends if they continue pushing hull points next edition

>> No.30698098

No it will never be fixed, because then tyranids would get wrecked even worse.
I won't stop using dreads though, you'll have to kill me first.

>> No.30698123

The way to fix it is to make Wraithknights and Riptides into walkers

like they should be.

>> No.30698157


Same here. I fucking love dreadnoughts; fluff, the models everything. Good thing I am playing blood angels.

>> No.30698174

Superheavy Walkers trump Gargantuan Creatures. Mostly because Gargantuans are capped at 10W and Walkers can go to infinity HP.

They will most likely in 7th fix Walkers to be the same or even closer to MCs. 6th's Hull Points and the inclusion of vehicles that are incapable of being one-shot (Knight Titans, Escalation) herald the arrival of Dreads being even harder to touch.

>> No.30698183

Toughness >>>>>> AV.

Shit mechanic is shit.

>> No.30698185


Are Grey Knight dreads worthless, too? I want to run them in my planned army, but I don't want to spend tons of money on models that will be useless on the tabletop.

>> No.30698191

Because walkers get to be invulnerable to massed small arms fire, and MCs do not

at AV12 its immune to bolters

>> No.30698223

Psyfleman dreads are pretty good

>> No.30698414


so? no one fires bolters at Walkers
and no one fires them at MC either

a bolter hit has a 1/36 chance of wounding a riptide

and Eldar MC are immune to small arms fire too

>> No.30698451


Most MC's are T6 or higher. They get armor saves and most of them get some form of invulnerable save. They get an extra d6 against armor, they ignore armor saves etc.

Walkers on the other hand have rear armors, can get immobiled, can get their weapons taken away or can get incapacitated for a turn. Since we have the HP system now they also have wounds. They don't get invuls, or armor saves.

>bolter fire immunity
>look! It's fucking nothing

>> No.30698475

>>30698451 is for >>30698191

>> No.30698492

>mfw Eldarfags used to say Wraithlords were no better than Dreadnoughts
>mfw this was back in 3rd edition when Walkers were even shittier than they are now

>> No.30698539


Chad Daddy is love. Chas Daddy is life.

>> No.30698675

Hull Points just need a few fixs

like give them an armor save

4+ base
3+ tank/heavy
5+ Skimmers
- open top

that way a Dread can't be bolter to death at least

>> No.30698682

I hope penitent engines become MC

they will rape shit for sobs

>> No.30698716

>Boltered to death
Son, I'd like to see that bolter.

>> No.30698776

Which is why the Eldar MCs should be walkers too. MCs can't be one shot through normal means, and don't lose effectiveness when taking damage was always balanced by the fact that the whole army can threaten them and not just a few specialized weapons and units. At T8 though that is gone so they get all of benefits of MCs with none of the draw backs. Combined with the fact that Eldar are already have one the best tanks in the game that can be spammed as a DT and both are hugely mobile it means fighting eldar well requires a huge amount of good range/mobile anti-tank level weapon to deal with the saturation of 6-8 units that require it to be dealt with.

(at least with the wraithlord its slow and only 3W)

>> No.30698806

Change armor pen roll to d3+1 (d6+2 for Armorbane/Melta)
Give Walkers Smash and Stomp

>> No.30698883

>MCs can no longer penetrate AV14 and can only glance on 6s to pen
>Walkers all get d3 removes from play attacks extra
>Blendernoughts are S10

Yeah no.

Eldar MCs are giant Wraithguard, and nobody thinks wraithguard should be Walkers.
On the other hand, Riptides, broadsides, and crises suits though....

Anyway, I think things made out of bone should have T values and mechanical constructs get AV.

>> No.30698889

MC's don't get 2d6 against vehicles anymore, they have Smash instead

>> No.30698928

My mistake, Walkers and Vehicles are unkillable because anything short of S10 can't pen their armor in any circumstance.

So go ahead with those rules, I'm sure everyone will love it when you run the FW all dreads list and nothing in their army is capable of even pentrating their armor despite costing 2-3x as many points.

>> No.30698936


Holy shit I never realized how casual /tg/ can be at times

Dreads with double twin-linked autoguns are a must have in any competitive GK lists, they can be great on vanillarines too

>B-b-b-but mhu CC walker ;__;

Get the fuck out if you are trying to play anything CC on a MEQ army past v4. I bet you like to make huge 20 men blobs of zerkers while playing CSM too faggot

>> No.30698955


By that logic grav tanks should get T values too. They too are wraithbone.

>> No.30699025

I don't care about fluff, T8 MCs should be walkers instead because T8 MCs are inherently overpowered for the reasons i gave.

Riptides just need a 3+ armor and only a 4++ from nova charging to be fine. It already has a weakness to assault, 3+ armor just means it can actually die to a normal of shooting as well.

>> No.30699140

Quoting from Eldar 6E codex p44
>...their psychoplastic hulls can bear tremendous stress...
That is the only mention of a material involved in their construction.

Except you forget that not everyone is space marines. You throw an Ironclad at anything in the daemons book that isn't a walker or an MC and it is incapable of winning, you throw one at dire avengers they can't even hurt it.

T8 is the same as either AV11 RA or AV13 FA walkers, nothing can touch AV13 walkers or AV11 RA vehicles unless they are specifically outfitted to kill tanks.
So, by your reasoning, I expect the armor values on a lot of shit to change. Because as is, I can throw 20 daemonettes at a wraithknight or Riptide and see it dead, but can't possibly harm a land raider or Ironclad or soul grinder.

New AV cap 12FA/SA 10RA for 14M3?

>> No.30699210

A riptide with a 3+ doesn't make sense.
If anything, just don't allow the nova charge to increase the invulnerable save.

>> No.30699215

>T8 is the same as either AV11 RA or AV13 FA walkers,

>> No.30699242

>no one shoots bolters at the two incredibly broken MCs that shouldn't be MCs


fucking nid MCs can get shellacked by bolters tho

>> No.30699289

Wraithlords aren't supposed to be hurt by bolter fire anyway.

>> No.30699300


>> No.30699367

But Space Marines with Power Swords or Chainswords need to be able to wound them. Sorry but you have a cruddex. Also: T8 would mean no squads.

>> No.30699385

>but space marines need to be able to wound them

fuck life, fuck being an npc race, and fuck your 't8 would mean no squads' fexes were way better when they weren't squads and had A FUCKING BILLION OPTIONS INSTEAD OF LIKE, 5

>> No.30699395

I believe I saw Lamenters killing one with sustained bolter fire.
Might be wrong though.

>> No.30699402

Eldar player here. I'm content with my fragile un-haunted walkers. People tend to pay them no mind until they finally rip the last hull point of a leeman russ's face. And they have an upgrade that lets them always run an additional 3 inches, and battle focus lets them run and shoot or shoot and run. Its like the most amusing unit in my army.

>> No.30699419

T8 is never the same as AV because it can't get 1 shot (without a special rule) and is just as effective at W1 as it is at W5. The vehicle damage chart and HPs is what keeps vehicles from being rampaging machines.

And your deamonette example is terribly pointless. Just because one unit is good against one thing and not the other doesn't mean anything. I can say the same exact thing in reverse. A unit of wychs with haywire grenades will instantly destroy a land raider or Av13 walker but can't possibly harm the wraithknight because haywire does nothing to MCs. Or how about the fact that tons of units in tons of armies just plain can't hurt either units?

>> No.30699425

Toughness 8 nids would be a little much, in my opinion at least.
Toughness 7 would be fairer, but 6 is the standard.

>> No.30699428

>Carnifexes aren't supposed to be hurt by bolter fire
What are you smoking son? Bolters are very potent weapons and while Carnifexes are tough, they aren't that tough...

>> No.30699441

>T8 is the same as either AV11 RA or AV13 FA walkers

allright that was retarded, here is why :

A dread has 3 HP and can be destroyed in one single penetrating hit if you roll a 6 or even a 4+ if you have a AP1 weapon

A MC with T8 has at the very least 4 HP and can't be killed in one shot.

It's that simple

>> No.30699446

How tough is chitin supposed to be anyway? I have no frame of reference here.

>> No.30699460

War walkers are funny, are the forgeworld wasps worth it at all?

>> No.30699484

Carnifexes are supposed to be goddamn walking tanks. the whole point of them is that they couldn't be taken down by bolter fire. They're massive armored beasts that are fucking insanely hard to kill

Now even OOE goes down like a jobber, but oh, other armies can get shit that comes back to life

Fuck everything.

>> No.30699487


You must be joking. I had a Khornate Daemon Prince get his ass kicked by a Forgefiend in CC. I've also had a Nurgle Prince get bitchslapped by a Venerable Dread. There's nothing wrong with Walkers.

>> No.30699506

> Ganon lay dead, his hands buried in the chest of a carnifex he had killed by ripping it open with a chainblade. He and the beast had ended one another, but while the fanged maw of the tyranid was foamed with spittle and swollen in animalistic agony, my sergeant seemed… at peace.
> chainblade

So what's up with bolters?

>> No.30699517

This. In 2nd edition they even took their 3+ saves on a 2D6, that's how fucking tough they are supposed to be.

>> No.30699526

Tyranids really are the biggest jobbers in all of 40k

You'd think it was the fucking Avatar, but nope, just nids, in general, getting bitch slapped by randoms

>> No.30699541

I am one to think that low survivability + deepstriking is only ever good for tank butt fucking. Conceptually speaking though, I think they rock out loud and there only 10 or 20 dollars more than the regular war walker. If I wasn't such a dangus I'd have gotten the wasps in the first place, ran em as regular war walkers a majority of the time and then utilize the deepstrike effects when it suited me. Because I'm loving BS 4 guardians and thats a deal breaker for me.

>> No.30699549

In 4th you could make them t7, 5w, 2+ save , and they'd only be like 176 pts.

>> No.30699552

That's a lie.

Have you heard of the Instant Death rule?
Beast Hunter Shells?
Grey Knights (an entire army that hoses MCs specifically).
Force Weapons?

MCs die in one hit all the time, not to mention that the T5 ones get 1hit KOed by anything with S10.

>> No.30699576

I think the thing you are missing here is that Princes aren't that good with just T5 and 3+/5++ and only 4W

especially when they get up to 300ish points

>> No.30699608

But anon, I play chaos and my hellbrute cant do that.

>> No.30699611

That's the problem with having infinite though creatures, it's your lot to die to make others look more powerful.

>> No.30699621


>> No.30699632

> 756.M41 Assault on Calth
> Bio-ships seed Calth with invaders before rejoining the hive fleet at Circe. Though few in number, the Tyranids are led by a great Carnifex that wreaks havoc until it is shot in the skull by a Commissar.

>> No.30699643

in the skull by a plasma pistol.

>> No.30699644 [SPOILER] 

Here here.

>> No.30699658

I think the point he's making is that MCs aren't completely bananas and in fact, 300+ point MCs die to ~150 point Walkers in one shot no matter what.

>> No.30699684

I think the susceptibility of walkers or big bad 'nids to small arms fire might be an attempt to take the game away from mech oriented lists and give some power back to infantry.

>> No.30699688

Not the person you are quoting, but

>Have you heard of the Instant Death rule?
Against toughness 8?
>Beast Hunter Shells?
Not everyone uses forge world. Or plays Guard. Or plays Guard with tanks.
>Grey Knights (an entire army that hoses MCs specifically).
Not everyone plays GK. Also that requires assaults, unless GK have some thing that causes force effects at range, haven't read their codex in awhile.
>Force Weapons?
Not everyone plays with psykers, and also more assualting.

The whole point of this thread is to complain that the XBAWX HUEG T8 MCs are too powerful. I don't think anyone is complaining about Demon Princes, Carnifexes, etc, being too badass, its just the Riptide and Wraithknight.

>> No.30699690

Their are things to specifically kill MCs sure, but how prevalent are they seriously?

Other then Grey Knights, Force weapons are only like 1-2 in a few of armies maybe and at they few they're avoidable. I can't even think of the last time i've see beast Hunter Shells. Plus some armies just have no options at all to instant death a T6+ MCs. Yes T5 MCs can get killed by S10 but this is more of a problem with T5 MCs then a reason MCs aren't overpowered

>> No.30699691

AV 13/13/12 HP3

Venerable Dreadnought
AV 13/13/12 3++ HP3

Ironclad Dreadnought
AV 14/14/12 HP3
- Armoured Ceramite 10 Pts

Contemptor/Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought
AV 14/14/13 3++ shooting 4++ assault
- Armoured Ceramite 0 Pts
- Indomitable Will: Cannot Explode. Instead, loses additional Hull Point on Explode result and gains Rage, Furious Charge, Hatred, Twin-Linked

>> No.30699695

He is nothing compared to the Swarmlord.

>> No.30699710

>Against toughness 8?

I think he's talking about force weapons and other weapons with that impose the instant death rule, not just the double toughness thing.

>> No.30699721

Well the thread is complaining about the T8 MCs such that point is rather irrelevant

>> No.30699760

I'm glad I read this thread. I was just about to pick up two Dreadknoughts for my Grey Knights army.
What should I put the money towards instead? Already got paladins and purifers.
Maybe more purifers?

>> No.30699775

Poor bastard.

>> No.30699776

Instant Death ignores toughness, several models have it.
You're thinking of the S>=Tx2 rule which CAUSES Instant Death

>> No.30699791

Dreadnoughts are cool though. Do double autocannon, that's always useful.

>> No.30699792

Help me understand the swarmlord's plight. I was making a jab at avatars constantly getting rekt in the fluff to make primarchs look beastly.

>> No.30699798

Pick up two dreads and give them 2x autocannons and give them psy shells

kill everything

>> No.30699800

you know what I mean

>> No.30699816

>Venerable Dreadnought

They should get Iron Halo's for a price with 5++ standard. 3++ makes them almost auto-take over Dreadnoughts.

>> No.30699821

Holy god, psy shells give +1 strength right?

>> No.30699843


GK Dreadnoughts are an exception because even if they die like normal dreadnoughts they shoot far better due to +1S from GK psychic ammo.

>> No.30699850


so suddenly you put out 4x twinlinked str8 shots

you're gonna be ffective.

>> No.30699861

>MCs die in one hit all the time, not to mention that the T5 ones get 1hit KOed by anything with S10.
This is why I wish nids had access to biomancy, enfeeble on a riptide and a blast from a rupture cannon in the face would give a chance for them to kill riptides via long range He would have to fail a 2+ in order for it to work, but its better than nothing

>> No.30699863

Oh my...
Vanilla dreads aren't that dakka friendly.

>> No.30699864

I only ever thought blood angel dreadnoughts could make me jealous.

>> No.30699920

The Avatar is a regular thing existing on every craftworld which jobs to some marines and primarchs.
The Swarmlord is the super special best of the best tyrant which still jobs to a single marine and a single tau.


> Calgar vs the Avatar
> the Avatar gets shot by all the heavy weapons, hit by first company termies thunderhammers, backstabbed and only then Calgar manages to finish him

> Calgar vs the Swarmlord
> 1st round
> Swarmlord manages to win dogpiling Calgar with tyrant guard
> 2nd round
> Calgar meets it 1 on 1 and tears apart

>> No.30699942

not to mention

the swarmlord shouldn't even exist

>> No.30699945

>not taking units and loadouts to match official artwork and be fluffy even if they're complete and utter shit

I bet you faggots want to win trophies at tournaments too.

>> No.30699989

Yeesh. Is the swarm lord a character that can issue challenges at least? That's one thing the avatar has going for it, it can make the termies back off or make calgar look like a puss.

>> No.30700003


Meh, daemons - specifically Chaos Daemons - are the most stereotypically 'bad guy' of all, what with being literal demons from hell. Guess what happens to their big monsters.

I like to think that's why Kelly included it in the Farsight supplement the way he did, since he's made his feelings on Tyranid individuality quite clear in the past.

>> No.30700021

I played dreads with assault cannons because that's all I've ever seen in spacewolf art.

>> No.30700024

what happened there

>> No.30700025

Yep, he is.
Tyrants and primes are honoraburu swordmasters challenging enemy leaders.

>> No.30700029


Are you kidding me. I used to deploy fruioso dreadnoughts. During 3rd edition. When drop pods didn't have rules. I almost always lost them but I still used them because they were cool as fuck. Imagine my face when I read the fifth edition BA codex for the first time.

>> No.30700039

Actually it's not AV that is the problem. It's the damage rules that are the issue; a pen and a 6 negates all remaining hull points which makes them pointless. Comparatively a hit and a wound on a model tends to get a save or outright kills them because infantry have low wounds. The difference is that you usually have to strip every wound to kill an infantry / character unit rather than a lucky roll to instant death them.

I'd like to see the vehicle damage chart causing more hull point damage the further you go up the table. So a result of a 6+ would not be an automatic explosion, instead it be crew shaken + weapon destroyed and an additional HP with extra HP taken for each point you are over the 6 (so Lascannons and Meltas can still fuck things on that 6 but less likely to do so).


Land Raider is hit by a melta, rolls a 5 on the damage chart becoming 7 because of AP 1. The raider would lose 3 Hull points (1 for Pen, +1 for rolling a 6 +1 for going a point over 6) and have a weapon destroyed and crew shaken result. But it still be around.

Then you can run with vehicles exploding when they reach -3 Hull points (tanks, walkers etc) and others at -1 / -2 (Open top / skimmers). You could even fix this by giving all vehicles a number of HP equal to their rear armour/2 modified for type, that way most A10 vehicles would have 5 hull points.

At least that way you can glance most things to death any way and penetrating hates hurt but aren't necessarily fatal for bigger tanks.

>> No.30700058


>> No.30700079

Damn. I'm sorry 'nid player.

>> No.30700108

To be fair, it doesn't say he killed the Swarmlord.

>> No.30700123

Jobbing top would be something like:

1) Daemonprince
2) Warboss
3) Hive tyrant (and anything other nid)
3) C'tan shard
4) Avatar
5) Greater Daemon

>> No.30700144

Hrmph. Some day I want to live to see a space marine captain on this list.

>> No.30700177

If it helps, the backstory on a marine character I wrote gets murderified by the swarmlord in like, five seconds.
He gets brought back to life, sort of, but it's something.

>> No.30700189

It doesn't because the swarmlord should not exist

>> No.30700198

Why not?

>> No.30700215

Will we ever get a detailed account on the battle for Haranshemash.

>> No.30700224

>ultra super sheshul leader character with names and shit
>for the tyranids, an endless swarm that has no individuality, that is a gestalt consciousness

>> No.30700241

What if buy a Kerrigan action figure and proxy the Swarmlord with it.

>> No.30700263

Except kerrigan wasn't a fluff problem like the swarmlord is

>> No.30700278

Rage everywhere.

>> No.30700295

So /tg/ since this is the 40k aparently, and the topic is nids.
I want to get in 40k, but I don't know if to buy the Dark Vengance box, or the Tyranid Battleforce.
Dark Vengance has everything I need to get started and even lets me play with my brother, but I like needs by far more than marines and spiky marines (don't get me wrong, I like them, but if I have you choose between space paladins, space-sado-maso paladins, and space-dino-bugs, I'll choose the Tyranids.
So, wich box is better
Yes, I know tyranids kinda suck this edition, that doesnt bother me, I'll play with friends and the like so I'll use the 4th codex

>> No.30700309

Download the rulebook and read their fluff, then decide, I would say.

>> No.30700349

Tyranids are good now since they got some pretty strong formations.

>> No.30700354

I've done that.
I've read the rule books, I've wanted to get into the hobby for years, and tyranids are by far my favorite army, ironically seconded by Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines on the second spot tied.
So that's why I asked, wich box is the better deal. I like the idea of a swarm AND a carnifex, but having 2 good looking armies to learn to play and play with someone is too tempting

>> No.30700389

>B-but muh 4th ed
Stop bitching, you have carnifexs's and you have some options.Typical Nid player always bitching.

>> No.30700417

>Is swarmbox any good
I think it is, It gives you 80 troops (4 broods of 20 gants), one fast attack brood and HQ/heavy support.

>> No.30700456

I know it's a good deal, I'm asking if its a better deal than dark vengance.

>> No.30700548

I like sentinels for the same reason. They look so weak and pathetic, but when they drop a series of lascannon/plasmacannon shots into something people begin to panick

>> No.30700588

I think Greater Daemons should be at least Daemon Prince level, maybe even higher. Whether broken over a Primarch's knee, hacked to pieces by Death Company, smashed apart by Dreadknights they outnumber two to one, stabbed by a holy thighbone, sniped by Zoanthropes, beaten one-on-one by this hero and that... they sure do know how to go out with a bang. Or just go out.

It happens, it's just not as notable. For instance, Ka'Bandha easily killed Captain Zorael before the Sanguinor dropped in and overcame his musculous might. Or in a more recent example, here we have a Warboss who killed a Chapter Master by the grace of Crud. And on a sidenote, since it was M41 it must have been the second Emperor's Swords Chapter, who would eventually end up wiped out by Necrons, while the first was destroyed by the Alpha Legion.

>> No.30700644

They never got killed by a marine with knife though.

>> No.30700692

That knife should be a Chapter Relic.

>> No.30700715

>some options

Fuck you.

>> No.30700850

You mentioned being able to play with your brother, if he wants to get into it too, then that would be the better option. If it's only you, then the 'nids swarm would be the better option.

>> No.30700890

Change the Vehicle Damage to be 1-8

1-3 nothing
4 Crew Shaken
5 Crew Stunned
6 Weapon Destroyed
7 Immobilized
8 Explodes

Change Tau and Eldar Units to Walkers.

>> No.30700934

wouldn't change anything, most vehicles are downed by hull points, not the chart /tg/ likes to bitch about.

>> No.30700976

Fuck yeah it should.
>Helbrecht's combat knife: S +2 AP 3 Rending
Or something equally ridiculous.

>> No.30701014

> rending fleshbane armourbane shred instant death

>> No.30701059


You forgot Monster Hunter, idiot.

>> No.30701140

How much should this DAEMON-KILLER cost?

>> No.30701153

15 pts

>> No.30701183

It'd certainly make an interesting Chapter Master.

>Behold, Chapter Master Facefucker!
>He's got Artificer Armor, a Bike, the Shield Eternal, etc...
>Oh, and a combat knife.

>> No.30701909

Easiest solution would surely be to have Toughness actually mean the toughness of ANYTHING.

Give monsters Toughness and Wounds, and vehicles Toughness and Hit Points.

>> No.30701992

I see no difference between wounds and hit points. How do you mean?

>> No.30702035

Me too. I have 7 dreads. I find they work pretty good en mass (get a chapter tactic or use the Assault Vanguard list to take lots). Also, pick ONE thing for them to do, and make sure it's assault (dreads assault better than assault marines but devastators shoot better than dreads). Surprisingly few opponents can do anything to dreads in CC, and the ones that can can't do it fast enough without luck. Excepting MCs and other dreads, of course.

>> No.30702100


Assault marines aren't good at assault so that's not saying much. And both dreadnoughts and devastators are extremely expensive shooting units.

>> No.30702101

>devestators shoot better than dreads

Unless we're talking about greyknight psyfleman dreads

>> No.30702254

Fun fact: Carnifexes were originally designed to be the Tyranid equivalent of a Dreadnought (2E). They had exactly the same save as a terminator (you know, Tactical Dreadnought Armor) and were T8, W10 back then.

The Carnifex should be the standard for MCs-as-Dreadnoughts, which just goes to show either how fucked the Tyranids got, or how bollocks the Tau/Eldar are.

>> No.30702610

Its both. The answer is both. Nids are fucked and Tau and Eldar are bollocks

So is the dreadknight

>> No.30702755

fix? but its not broken. Walkers are highly specialized and delicate machines full of sensitive gearing and whatnot. MCs are giant living things. They should tear up walkers in a fistfight.

>> No.30702758

'Cause autism.

>> No.30702771

>a fleshy human or a giant should beat a metal robot or mecha


>> No.30702783

>anything but shit
>laughing Kaiju.jpg

>> No.30702923


Spoiler alert: the Jaegers won.

>> No.30702941

Only by cheating.

For the most part the Kaiju obliterated Jaegers

>> No.30703003

>for the most part

It's like you completely ignored the history they gave you during the movie and failed to notice the 20+ kill markings on certain jaegers.

>> No.30703422

>Comparing bio-engineered insectlike monsterflesh to human flesh
>not realizing that all engineering is humanity attempting to emulate nature's much more complex and superior biomechanization
>not realizing that organic materials are capable of being better than metal in every fucking way when they are consciously designed the same way mechanical constructs are instead of being accidents of evolution

>> No.30703482

>>not realizing that organic materials are capable of being better than metal in every fucking way when they are consciously designed the same way mechanical constructs are instead of being accidents of evolution

That's wrong you stupid faggot.

>> No.30703578

Tell that to the spiders which can weave webs 100x stronger than kevlar or starfish which can be torn into a hundred pieces and have most of them regenerate into new fully grown starfish or deep sea creatures which can survive at depths we can't reach in submersibles because they fucking collapse from the pressure and cockroaches which can survive nuclear holocaust while every piece of technology we've ever developed gets fucking roasted or rats which can chew through solid steel.

>> No.30703609

Oh and PS, all of those things are part of the aforementioned accidents of evolution.

Now imagine what something like the Tyranids would be capable of when taking all the genetics from those organisms and billions more and recombining them in the most efficient ways possible.

Humans don't work with metal because it's better, they do it because it's easy. You can heat it up and hammer it into shape no problem. It takes far more advanced technology to bioengineer and clone living organisms.

>> No.30703679

'Cause common fucking sense.

>> No.30703714

My only problem with the MC/walker divide is how they are intentionally making models that should be walkers (rip tide and wraithknight) in MCs.

It's like they know how shitty the rules are for walkers so they push everything as an MC rather than fixing the rules.

>> No.30703746

>not a highly specialized and delicate machine full of sensitive gearing and whatnot

>> No.30703766

Wraithknight is a bigger Wraithlord so I can see how that one makes sense.

But Riptide is a guy in a suit so that one really pisses me off.

>> No.30703828

It also takes a bit of research which I really doubt we have yet so that argument is kind of silly.

We use metal because it has good mechanical qualities for the applications we use it for.

>> No.30703873


Hey faggot, none of those spiders are capable of weaving their web fast or multitudinous enough to have any use other than as a spiderweb.

The fact that the starfish is able to be torn at all shows how weak it is.

How are you this stupid. It's better to just build something out of diamond or that Caltech 2011 paladium alloy. 40k is not realistic. You can build a robot or tank that cannot be killed by any living creature smaller than a continent or planet.

>> No.30703911

You are aware that just because it is big that doesn't mean its nervous system or big fat face which is roaring in your face is any less vulnerable to destruction. A head shot, massive concussive forces, and other debilitating things kill an organism whether it's big or small. Your average dreadnought won't be affected by explosions, limb hits, and it doesn't bleed out.

An issue with what I just said is of course if the machines use hydraulics or pneumatics since odds are those systems won't be redundant so much as over engineered in the first place. Also, Tau suits appear to use large servos instead of hydraulics. Purely an extrapolation.

>> No.30703960


So.. exactly what he said??

>> No.30704009

>mfw this faggot is defending something that will literally rip and tear light infantry that doesn't have grenades to shreds

>> No.30704022

You completely missed the point of the second post, didn't you.

Those animals weren't designed. They just happened on their own thanks to natural selection. Comparing them to mechanical constructs isn't a fair comparison.

Biomechanoids on the other hand? Would fuck the shit out of anything you could build from inorganic materials. Do you even know what diamond is, retard? It's carbon. Guess what life forms are made of. Guess what diamond forms from.

>> No.30704030

but an MC does that too and can do other things too

>> No.30704033


Then they out-evolved the Jaegers and kept becoming rapidly more powerful. Humanity would not have been able to keep up.

>> No.30704073

they were perfectly able to, but the political will was gone

>> No.30704076

You can easily bioengineer a creature that also doesn't care about explosions and limb hits and bleeding. Carnifex =/= big human dude or crab creature. It's a killing machine explicitly designed for war.

>> No.30704089

Yeah thats why Striker Eureka totally didn't get beaten
oh wait

>> No.30704105

But the Tyranids can

And the tyranids have the resources too

>> No.30704106

that was an abandonded design

the jeager program was killed off via loss of will

striker held up very well against many kaiju threats

>> No.30704109



>> No.30704137

No, the humans won, because of their strategy and ingenuity.

In actual fights, the majority of jaegers got their shit pushed in.

>> No.30704186

You realize you're defending something that has literally no influence on 40k but only the rule of cool, right?

>> No.30704417


No, the jaegers beat the shit out of kaijus for 10+ years. I'm sure if humanity had UNLIMITED RESOURCES and INSTANT MECH FACTORIES they would beat the kaiju.

>> No.30704495

>Category 2 Jaeger Gypsy Danger defeated Category 5 Kaiju Slattern

>> No.30704521

>Biomechanoids on the other hand? Would fuck the shit out of anything you could build from inorganic materials. Do you even know what diamond is, retard? It's carbon. Guess what life forms are made of. Guess what diamond forms from.


Diamond is made of CARBON. The same thing as GRAPHITE and PENCIL LEAD. "Anything with carbon is as strong as diamonds" is stupid as fuck but somehow in the back of my mind I knew your stupid ass would say something like that. Probably because you're stupid enough to say fictional make believe shit is stronger than X because they don't follow the laws of physics.

The only way for you to be right is with an IMPOSSIBLE scenario that ignores the laws of physics.

>> No.30704532

>plot armor

>> No.30704542


You.. You have reading comprehension problems

The Tyranids could easily make their carapaces out of diamond hard material, especially their larger creatures

>> No.30704576


You realize Land Raiders are weaker than modern tanks, right? GW can't write for shit and apparently others have bad reading comprehension because you're retarded and GW said so?

>> No.30704623

>Carnifexes are armed with four great sickle-shaped claws of diamond hard chitin, bone and cartilage
>diamond hard
There you go, anon.

>> No.30704653

Goddamnit GW.

>> No.30704666


holy shit you're bad at 40k

>> No.30704688

Eh. Stranger things have happened.

I have my emperor's champion solo up a defiler in 4th ed. Shit was hilarious.

>> No.30704717


Had that happen with a Blood Angels Assault squad, 5 man, particularly the sergeant, cut a hole through half my 1000 point CSM army.

>> No.30704720


Diamond hard chitin bone and cartilage is physically impossible.

But if Tyranids can do it why can't you just make a diamond hard tank. Oh look the walker is just as invincible as the MC.

>> No.30704736


nah there shouldn't be a rank, Im pretty sure GW just pulls one of them out of a hat randomly when they want something hard to kill to make a character look good.

>> No.30704765

Because the imperium doesn't have the technology

>> No.30704781


what sort of combat knife?

>> No.30704799

I dunno man, I think that'd be kind of cool to see on the table top.

>> No.30704857

It's impossible why, because you say so, with your jack-all 12 year old understanding of biology? You're fucking retarded, kid. Organics are more adaptable, more flexible, more resilient and more reactive than metal could ever hope to be.

>> No.30704875


The only role walkers still serve is as shooters. They can't make it into assault and even if they did, they'd just get fucked over by power fists/klaws, melta bombs or krak grenades.

>> No.30704886

>But if Tyranids can do it why can't you just make a diamond hard tank.
Because we already established that the technology for bioengineering is about 29784572 times more advanced than the simple act of hammering together some nonliving material.

Tyranids are the second most technologically advanced race in 40k after the Necrons.

>> No.30704903


Magnetite is the hardest occurring substance in living organisms. Diamond drills are used to mine magnetite.

>> No.30704914

Why, because you say so, with your jack-all 12 year old understanding of metallurgy? You're fucking retarded, kid. Metallics are more malleable, more durable, more resilient, and more reactive than organics could ever hope to be.

>> No.30704930

But Astartes Dreadnought type mecha are real? Lol.

>Diamond is made of CARBON.
No shit, I just fucking told you that.

>he same thing as GRAPHITE and PENCIL LEAD. "Anything with carbon is as strong as diamonds" is stupid as fuck but somehow in the back of my mind I knew your stupid ass would say something like that.
Funny because I never actually said that, you're putting words in my mouth for your faggot strawman argument.

What I said was that the Tyranids consciously design their creatures, so they could very easily make something with shell and claws that are literally fucking diamonds.

>The only way for you to be right is with an IMPOSSIBLE scenario that ignores the laws of physics.
Tell me more about how your kindergarten understanding of physics being METAL STRONK, MEAT WEAK is scientifically sound.

>> No.30704942

>diamond is the hardest metal known to man.jpeg

>> No.30704967

Hardest naturally occurring substance.

Tyranids don't give a fuck what mother nature put in your organisms. They have several galaxies worth of crazy ass exotic alien DNA from every environment imaginable and they can put it together however the fuck they want.

>> No.30704981

Except that's wrong, nice try though.

>> No.30704999

>holy shit you're bad at rolling dice and getting the correct random results necessary to win at a game of chance

this is literally how retarded that statement is, anon. do better man.

>> No.30705043

Sure, you can make a diamond hard tank. And then the nids will just spray acid all over it and melt it down because lol who the fuck cares how hard it is.

>> No.30705044


Give your princes wings and psyker mastery level 3.

>> No.30705055

>acid melting diamonds

Yeah that makes total sense. You just respond to rebuttals to your nonsense with more nonsense.

Of course you win every argument ever when you don't even follow the laws of reality.

>> No.30705065


Total kek
sides are in orbit

>> No.30705077

Neither do titans

>> No.30705094

Acid cannot melt things if it cannot react with them. The reason diamonds are so strong is because they are so inert and don't react to anything.


So why is any one brand of faggotry better than another? "Well he's doing it too" doesn't justify you being an idiot.

>> No.30705116

Two second google search shows that certain acids heated to 400 degrees F will wreck diamonds shit. Tyranids are easily capable of engineering a creature that spits that, they have biologically generated plasma for fucks sake.

Sorry anon.

>> No.30705125

I'm just saying its 40k. Arguing about realism is retarded

>> No.30705131


40k plasma isn't realistic.

>> No.30705150

Not given our current technological level of advancement, no. But that doesn't mean much.

>> No.30705152


Haha, no, read closer, acid heated to that level might dissolve A LITTLE of the diamond.

>> No.30705171


Fuck the acid noise, a shovel-tusker Carnifex will just flip the fucking tank upside down and walk away laughing.

Then we'll see how superior technology is to living organisms that can, you know, pick themselves up off the ground unlike a fucking dreadnought that would be shit out of luck if it tripped over a pebble.

>> No.30705177

>anti-grav plating

>> No.30705188

>Molten Sodium Hydroxide + Sodium Nitrate at 400 degrees C might do a fair job of slowly dissolving diamonds completely.

Completely. But we don't actually have to dissolve the whole tank, just get through the armour in one spot.

>> No.30705199


Yes, but thats a problem with the riptides rules, not the walker rules.

>> No.30705202

>Imperium having gravtanks
>antigrav being a thing that could even theoretically exist

>> No.30705204


Stop trying to give the imperium tech they cannot even comprehend

>> No.30705212


Since when was this even about Imperial technology.

>> No.30705224

I don't know the other anon is talking about Tyranids so

>> No.30705229

Do you evern 40k? Landspeeders just for a one (and Eldar vehicles all over the damned place) as well as how most Imperial starships function. Antigrav is fucking everywhere. And in theory as an actual technology it's probably electrogravitics.

>> No.30705230

>hur dur Tyranids can do everything including farting reality-melting acid rainbows laser beams out of their eye sphincters
>Imperium can't into tech

Why are you even having a debate if you're just going to go "I can do everything, you can't do anything."

Not to mention you're completely ignoring any logic or science to begin with.

>> No.30705248

>expecting retarded Tyranidfags to not be retarded

It's all they have left after their second reaming by the Crud.

>> No.30705260

Eldar vehicles are made of paper and fairy dust, except when they have fucking force fields that double as one of the most broken guns in the game.

>> No.30705273

Because thats how 40k works moron.

>> No.30705277

I wasn't aware landspeeders were tanks made out of diamond hard (and therefore heavy) material.

>> No.30705306


Diamonds aren't the heaviest substance around. If you argue strength-to-weight-ratio, you will say stuff with a high rating like titanium are too weak.

And if you want to talk about weight, Tyranids shouldn't even be able to breath or move.

>> No.30705334

For the last fucking time, people. Tyranids are not earth bugs scaled up in size. They were designed with their weight/mass in mind. They have hyper redundant skeletal support structures, circulatory systems, and are fucking LOADED with symbiotic microorganisms that do all the shit for them most natural creatures have vital organs for.

>> No.30705360

>multiple redundant circulatory systems*

>> No.30705408

>Tyranids aren't Earth bugs they're super space bugs!
>Your super space tanks are Earth tanks though fuck you

>> No.30705423

No your super space tanks are the imperium's tanks

which are shit

>> No.30705445


Because only the Imperium has tanks in 40k.

>requiring circulatory systems at all

>> No.30705446

It doesn't matter how super or space your tanks are. They aren't biological and are therefore inferior in terms of what they can be made to do, barring nanotechnology, which is basically what bioengineering is anyways except using organic compounds.

>> No.30705474

>not being able to self-repair at the microscopic level
>not being able to assimilate other matter and grow and develop
>being susceptible to shit like EMP

>> No.30705476

It doesn't matter how super or space your bugs are. They aren't mechanical and are therefore inferior in terms of what they can be made to do, barring bioengineering, which is basically what nanotechnology is anyways except using non-organic compounds.

It's hilarious how you still don't realize how full of shit your arguments are when all people do is reverse them back at you and they still make just as much sense.

>> No.30705487

EMP will fuck with the nervous system of living things too

>> No.30705488

Except they don't.

You just think they do, because you're retarded.

>> No.30705490



>> No.30705509

Neither do yours.

You just think they do, because you're retarded.

>> No.30705521

>curbstomping humans too hard
Sorry I can't hear you over the sound of Tyranid physiology and ecology being infinitely better than yours in every way imaginable forever

>> No.30705533

Repeating my own arguments in the opposite context like a 5 year old doesn't make you look clever. It just makes you twice as wrong.

>> No.30705537

I have no sympathy for the Nid players out there. In 3rd the only armies I ever played where Nids, with a little BA and Khrone sprinkled in. Thats it. For the entire 3rd edition, across a number of tournaments, leagues, and friendly games, nothing but Nids. Nids where OP and everyone knew it. Now people are bitching cause their stupid bugs are no longer the easy win army.

Cry me a god damn river.

>> No.30705558

Nids were never an easy win army. They're one of the hardest to play correctly. They just tend to attract players who are good at these sorts of games, for some reason. Like Eldar, except Eldar are actually broken, so the combination of the two is painfully evident.

>> No.30705595

>It just makes you twice as wrong

That means you are wrong to begin with.

>> No.30705605

nids were never easy win

Thats the eldar

>> No.30705614

>this bad at reading comprehension
No, nigger, it makes you twice as wrong as you would be otherwise.

>> No.30705641

>can't into logic
>can't into multiplication
>starts blaming others' reading comprehension

That's pretty cute, but you've yet to say a single factual or correct statement this entire thread.

>> No.30705679

Don't forget graphene.

>> No.30705732

>They just tend to attract players who are good at these sorts of games, for some reason.

Yeah, like Tau... wait.

Your delusional btw, though being overpowered in the past still doesn't give the excuse why you can't have at least a balanced codex now.

>> No.30705974

Nids were never top dogs.

that was ALWAYS Eldar

>> No.30706065

... Of course Tyranids have individuallity.

They are a metaphor for the internet.

>> No.30706119

>being overpowered in the past still doesn't give the excuse why you can't have at least a balanced codex now
Stop trying to use logic in a 40K thread.

>> No.30706848

Anybody, and I do mean anybody, who is okay with HP should just fuck off. First, that's not how tanks, or vehicles for that matter, work, it just isn't. You can shoot a hundred holes into a tank and it will still work unless you actually damage some integral part of it. If you do hit something important, then the tank/vehicle is generaly done. Old system made much more since, if you hit a vehicle you generally didn't do much to it, only on a luck roll, which would represent a lucky/well placed shot would the tank blow up. not this dumb bounce enough bullets off of it until it runs out of "HP". Also the fact that the game now incorporates something called HP, should be a sign that something is fucking wrong, this isn't pokemon.

>> No.30706877

Your opponents must have all sucked. I never had a problem shredding nids in 3rd. Bolters, autocannons and assault cannons to shred the masses, lascannons for the big guys, flamers to clean up whats left. Just stand and shoot, easy win.

>> No.30708013

>Below Avatar or C'tan
>Or anyhting other than M'kar

>> No.30709647

Psybolt + Dual TL Autocannons

Park it midfield and shit on everything in sight.

>> No.30710752

I would play those rules.

>> No.30710771

if you want to play nids it's a better deal, if you want to play chaos it's a worse deal.

>> No.30710844

>ctrl f
>no results
for liking it so much you guys are so. fucking. shit. at warhammer

>> No.30711051

They should make all vehicles sturdier and more expensive. Look at the modern armies; there should be no good reason why the people inside of the APC are more expensive and harder than the vehicle carrying them.

If, for example, Rhinos were +150 points, you'd see the Warhammer game change to how the fluff actually sees them: fighting vehicles, where men slog behind them as cover, but also people in them fire inside. Heck, maybe give 'em an armor save, which improves to 4+ if they take heavy armor.

It would also mean taking guys on foot was a viable and sensible counter option, as these expensive warmachines can't counter guerrilla style, terrain heavy fighting too well.

If these changes were made, then walkers being able to fight carnefexes on equal ground would make total sense.

Right now, basic transports being so goddamn cheap and squishy is a lot of the reason why the game is so stupid right now. Also, it'd give you a reason to actually repair shit mid combat. How fluffy is that for ya?

>> No.30711085

>genetically engineer a thousand ton radioactive monster to destroy major population centers
>war lasts 10 years

>build a submarine loaded with nuclear missiles to destroy major population centers
>war lasts ten hours
Anything looks like a good idea when giant robots are your base of comparison.

>> No.30711096

>Competitive GK
5th edition called

>> No.30711776


Yet it was cruddace who make the lemon russ and almost evey tank in th ig codex be able to be deploy in squadrons in an edition were vehicles were almost inmortal.

>Mfw manticores and deathstrike missile will be able to deploy in squadrons

>> No.30712971


>> No.30712983

>deathstrike missile will get the D

>> No.30713141


>> No.30714111

I love doing that. 1 HQ, 25 Death Company with no upgrades.... Then just swarm the table with Dreadnoughts.

Some of the most fun games I've ever had.

>> No.30714225

That doesn't scale though. How do you represent a titan without HP? Make the armor so high that nothing but another titan can damage it?

That's basically how it used to work, by the way, since titans were Apocalypse and Apocalypse had D weapons. Neither limit applies anymore, so the only solution was HP.

I'm not saying HP doesn't need a rework, just that it can't be so simplistic as you say.

>> No.30714272

I is a problem.
A is a bigger problem.
AV/HP is a bigger problem still.

We'll get to complaining about shitty combat performance once we're done with survivability.

>> No.30714313

Give weapons multiple wounds back. Would solve a lot of problems

>> No.30714359

If you do that, they you have to lose Instant Death from high S, which opens other problems back up.

>> No.30714408

Dude, did you play a 2 vs 2 friday a week ago?

>> No.30714448

Eh, bring back 2nd with its smaller forces and lose the emphasis on TEH EPICS and streamline combat a bit and you make a good game

>> No.30714515


>> No.30714647

I had an idea: all walkers get Armour saves and the saves differ based on the side, so
AV 10 gets a 6+ save, AV 11 gets a 5+ save, AV 12 a 4+ and so on.
Also to give vehicles in general a bit more suitability back results on the damage table would always be at -1/-2 so you would have to have an AP2 or better weapon to cause explosion results.

>> No.30714752

Wasn't me. I know I'm not the only one that likes to do that.

>> No.30715013

Walkers should get their own version of stomp attacks. Vs like 30MM bases

>> No.30715040


I can't stop cumming

>> No.30715117

>squadron rules were fairly shitty though

>> No.30715302

I think you could just use HP with some sort of armor save and everything'd be fine.

>> No.30715326

This is my thought process on the matter as well. Numbers can be tweaked but I think it's the right way to go about it.

>> No.30716210

>Easy win
Motherfucker, were you even playing 40k nine months ago? The army sure as hell didn't play itself, until the new codex gave tryhards the option to just spam Wave Serpents in all slots instead of thinking.

>> No.30718119

>rerollable 2+ armor saves isn't a auto win

Yeah. go fucking kill yourself

>> No.30718210

That's a product of an expensive deathstar and 6th edition. Its also not that good as it doesn't score and doesn't provide significant offensive ability, and relies on passing ld 8 psychic tests.

Eldar weren't easy win in 5th or the start of 6th, and they are only good now because the meta makes waveserpents stupidly effective if played right.

>> No.30718254

sniper is marine poison.

>> No.30719036

Squadrons are retarded. Just give IG 9 heavy slots and be done with it.

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