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[ERROR] No.30637792 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

This is stupid as plastic Knight Titan? It's useless unless you are using them as your Primary Detachment, blow to absolute shit in a single turn by 3 enemy units, fucking Ork units. Every fucking thing they had that could damage it with shooting could see the fucking thing on the 1st turn no matter where I put the damn thing, even other the other side of the tallest central building a 1/3 of the model was clearly sicking out from behind it.

The fucking Kill Bursta that blew half of this shitstain away with it's own D 7" Blast cost fucking only 25pts more and that figurative god-engine can hide behind a 1 level buildings so long as the roof is ringed with waist high palisades. Then a follow up with 10 Lootas in the front, 10 Lootas in the side and it was finished. I least I didn't put the fucking thing next to my other scoring units. And the biggest fucking difference is Orks can still afford to have 70 boots on the ground, other vehicles and multiple flyers when they field a Kill Tank.

Calm Mode: Honestly the thing has no place by itself, you need 3 or more for it to be at all worth it's cost just for the ability to overwhelm your opponents anti-tank firepower.

>> No.30637913

GW should've priced it 275pts with no D chainsword, it'd be worth it if it was like that.

>> No.30637936

>using Knight like its a competent LoW
>complains when a 7"D template fucks it up royal
>complains that its too tall when its only 7"
what the fuck did you expect?
as a primary detachment they aren't too bad because then you suddenly have 3+ big scary scoring walkers, but adding a single one instead of a real LoW is a trap choice.

>> No.30637956

>it'd be worth it if it was like that.
Nah, then the 240pt wraithknight would autofuck it, it needs the D so it can actually kill things in combat. its costed pretty fairly its just a shitty stand in for a LoW.

>> No.30638013

That's the thing.
it's NOT a lord of war. it's a special detachment.

oh and OP,most ork superheavies, most of all the killbursta, are amazing. the rest of their stuff? not so much.

>> No.30638088


What did you expect, you bought the discount titan so you get discount results. Its like using a wraithknight instead of a revenant.

>> No.30638302

what the fuck did you THINK was gonna happen when D weapons looked at it? don't be a moron mate

>> No.30638614

Knights are very strong actually.

>> No.30638649

They're pretty average.
They pack a hell of a bunch but you're still shelling out nearly 400 points for the durability of a Dreadnought with a few extra HP.

>> No.30638906

Significantly more durable than 2 dreadnoughts bolted together, and has the added advantage that its I4 and will fuck MCs very quickly, making it a tricky choice to assault, even a Wraithknight will think twice about it.

Melta cannon is the best gun option, as that template will fuck up squadrons and parking lots like nobodies business.

>> No.30640207

Dreadnoughts are also I4, that doesn't do them any good. Wraithknights, Daemon Princes, Bloodthirsters all give zero fucks as long as they can charge it in open ground.

2 shots is actually superior against anything that's not AV14 or terminators. RoF>Melta.

Git gud.

>> No.30640330

>melee combat ever being relevant

>> No.30640477

Assault is still a huge part of 40k even after buffs to shooting in 6e. The fact that they've had to nerf assault so many times is a testament to how powerful it is.

If you want your hyper-tactical space combat where guns always win, fuck off to Infinity.

>> No.30640506

>getting into melee combat with a Superheavy

You chose.. Poorly.

You're gonna kill it. And then it will explode and drop a Str D blast right in the middle of the unit that killed it.

And this is after its had a few turns of shooting its big cannon

Knights are so worth their points its crazy

>> No.30640538

>assault a part of 40k
>in 6e

No not really.

>> No.30640570

it is when you're fast and have S:D attacks in CC

>> No.30640638

>babby with no argument

I bet you play Riptaudar vs IG leafblower on boards with a small hill in each corner and a palm tree in the middle.

>> No.30640643

Which consists of currently the knight titan

Which honestly doesn't want to get in assault.

>> No.30640686 [DELETED] 

This ain't older games anymore

>> No.30640763

I'm just getting it because I like the model, otherwise it's too easy to kill if there's just one.

>> No.30640765

Only assault that matters are units that basically don't die (beaststars, eldar bike bullshit, even screamstars) but in general assault is an after though

>> No.30640771

I'm sorry, what are the top tier assault units? Even most deathstar lists aren't that into assault right now

>> No.30640869

you ran a 40k unit against an apocalypse unit, wat did you expect? you should hav brought a warhound, like everyone else.

>> No.30640895



Daemons have ways to either quickly get into combat or hold up shooting units and they do just fine.

If an assault army shits the bed it isn't because assault is bad or shooting is too good, it's because the army was never given the proper tools.

>> No.30640907

deathstars aren't into assault? you've never played against seekerstar or jetseer i gather. those are only two of the top 5 or so lists right now.

>> No.30640934


Jetbike Trumps Assault in matters of determining what is good.

>> No.30640935

**i meant screamerstar

>> No.30641190



>> No.30641488


I love the model but fuck that price and lack of weapon options.

Oh for it to have been epic scale I'd have bought a little squad of them just to have sitting about my house.

Hell with 2 sprues that size they could have produced a 2 force "titan legion/knights vs orks" epic scale little side game.

>> No.30641517


They're cool man, that's all that matters. They're basically a shittier WK for the Imperial armies who lacked an equivalent.

>> No.30641537


There's always that one joker who says assault is viable in 6E because Screamerstars.

Like 12" jet movement with 2++ rerollables is standard issue for all assault units.

>> No.30641674

i look forward to 12" jet movement 2++ rerollable Hormagants.

>> No.30641708

>jet Hormagants


>> No.30641748

Just strap some jet thrusters onto their ass

buttblasters a-go

>> No.30643949

One of my friends used a single Knight Paladin that I bought with his IG yesterday when fighting against my other friend's Nids. The Knight ended up soloing half of the army, downing a Crone with its Heavy Stubber and giving it the D, before doing the same to a Tervigon, and dropping some pie-plates on some Zoanthropes and Venomthropes.

Granted, this was only the 2nd/3rd time the Nid player used the army, and this it is purely antecedental evidence, but I'm pretty satisfied with its performance. I imagine that 2 or 3 of these on the battlefield will give every army that isn't packing either a Lord of War or a re-rollable 2++ deathstar unit some pause.

>> No.30644000


Where's the most recent rules for the Ork superheavies? I've been hankering for something bigger than a Battlewagon to add to my force.

Also I really wish I'd known about Klawstompas when I build my Stompa.

>> No.30644046

Forgeworld downloads, Lords of War FAQ: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/fwDownloads

You can use certain Ork models as Lords of War. Klawstompas don't exist anymore (except as Apoc units/IA8 Kustom Stompaz).

>> No.30644047


It's somewhat ironic that Nid MCs are just about the only things more resilient to the new D weapon rules than the old ones.

>> No.30644088


Most things can stomp Tyranids.

Knights can be pretty good but they can also just be average. They're pretty hit or miss except without ever being complete shit.

>> No.30644314

The hive mind is pleased by your offering of sides.

>> No.30644463

Isn't that good, though? It's good without being overpowered?

>> No.30644498


It's good, but one has to wonder why you aren't just allying in a WK or 2 Riptides.

People are only buying knights for the fluff/model/don't want to ally xenos.

>> No.30644761

Doesn't that mean its at the ideal powerlevel then. Good enough that if you like it its worth taking. But not so good that you'll feel its needed to be taken.

>> No.30644811


The ideal power level isn't "good" when things like Eldar exist.

>> No.30644947

Things like Eldar need nerfs. But we all know how GW feels about that.

And good luck convincing Kelly that his army is TOO strong.

>> No.30645016


That's the problem with garbage like Eldar, Necrons, Tau, etc. They up the ante with their power creep making future release that would have been perfectly fine like the Knight obsolete before they even come out, and they make past releases worse, like how Eldar beats all the old power books from 5E.

I really wish the players did not have to resort to crazy house rules, bans, refusing matches, policing neckbeards, etc just to play an enjoyable balanced game.

>> No.30645037


If GW would get its head out of its ass and just use FAQs like video game devs use patches to nerf and buff and balance, they'd be a lot better off.

But if GW would get its head out of its ass about a lot of things it'd be a lot better off.

>> No.30645040


There's nothing wrong about Eldar other than Wave Serpents. Other than that, the 6th Ed Eldar book is what every army should want. Almost every unit decent with tonnes of internal balance and viability. Change Wave Serpent Shield range to 6 or 12 inches and you've fixed the one overpowered element.

>> No.30645056

What's so OP about Necrons?

>> No.30645075


Nothing. He's fucking clueless.

>> No.30645112


I meant Necrons in 5E, Tau in April, and now Eldar, idiots.

>> No.30645131

>Getting called an idiot for asking a legitimate question.

Ok, then.

>> No.30645134


Croissant spam never existed right? It's obvious the context is talking about past releases since the topic is power creep, which happens over a period of time, not a specific point.

>> No.30645147


Allies and Psykic powers break Eldar something chronic. One is simple to solve; change all existing Battle Brothers to Allies of Convenience (which fits the fluff infinitely better anyway). Psykic powers, I have no idea. When I started playing in 4th, they were irrelevant. Now they're totally game changing.


Necrons caused serious power creep when they first showed up in 5th. Same with Tau then Eldar in 6th.

>> No.30645157

>jetseer council
>battle brothers with all the good armies
>battle focus
>WK is better than the knight titan

>> No.30645186


These guys got it >>30645147 >>30645134

Maybe you're the one that's fucking clueless. Either that or some faggot Necron player.

>> No.30645210

>annihilation barges
>flying DT
>not overpowered


>> No.30645269

Most of what you listed aren't OP by a long shot.

Are you just bad at the fucking game or something?

>> No.30645315

>not OP

Just admit you play Necrons and leave.

>> No.30645321

You sound like a butthurt SM fag who got his ass kicked by some Necrons.

>> No.30645337

I don't even know what MSS is.

>> No.30645359


Maybe you are just bad at using those things well. There's a reason they are auto-take.

>> No.30645384

>I don't even know what common abbreviations are
>they're not OP though and you're just bad

/tg/ pls


You sound like a faggot who was caught being wrong by multiple people and is on maximum damage control and deflection.

The only thing worse than an autistic faggot who is wrong is one who's too stupid to slink away and keeps shitposting instead.

>> No.30645440


>battle brothers with all the good armies

That's a legitimate problem with allies system. Books aren't written with allies in mind.

>jetseer council

Is that all that common? I remember being told about how terrible it was by /tg/ along with the wraithknight. It won one tournament though, so now its responsible for power creep according to /tg/.

>WK is better than the knight titan

Jumping the gun a bit. I remember how much shit /tg/ talked about how the wraithknight was terrible. Knight might end being good. And even if it isn't, that could mean it is underpowered rather than WK being overpowered.

>battle focus

Are we really complaining about that? A rule that finally made shurikens not the worst gun in the game, objective sitters and a rule that is just fluffy and cool.

>Those Dire avengers moved another 4 inches
>So OP

>> No.30645488

I did say MOST things you posted weren't. Learn to read you gigantic whining faggot.

>> No.30645513

I don't play Necrons and have never had problems dealing with them either.

They are in no way "OP" like you retards are saying.

>> No.30646205


/tg/ talked shit about the Wraithknight because they didn't look any further than the points cost and the 3+ save. They ignored psykic powers and the ludicrous survivability that T8 multiple wounds gives you.

The reason why no-one is shitting their pants about Knights showing up is pretty much exclusively because they're vehicles. Vehicles are in every way inferiour to MCs in 6th edition. Even super-heavies aren't immune to this; hit a super-heavy vehicle with a D weapon and the worst you'll do is strip D3 hull points. The worst result for a D weapon hit on an MC is zero wounds.

If Knight Titans were T9 W6 with that funky 4++ shield and a base 3+ armour save, you can bet your arse that the internet would be in a state of virtually constant meltdown over how fantastically good they'd be. As it is, we looked at them, saw a vehicle stat-line, and gave a large and resounding "meh". We then saw that it was AV13, and the "meh" turned to outright derision. The only vehicle with less than AV14 that is considered worth taking is the Wave Serpent, and that's because it mounts a stupid level of firepower. Two battlecannon shots or a large blast melta doesn't make many armies scared.

>> No.30646507

>Is that all that common?

The deathstar is cheap enough to fit in a list with 4-6 Wave Serpents and a WK.

It's not like Screamers or terminators where they take up the whole list.

>> No.30646532


Battle Focus is OP as fuck are you kidding? Though I guess it's mitigated by shuriken's shit range.

But if people can say "hur dur ATSKNF is so broken" even if marine infantry is shit, then it should be a valid complaint that Battle Focus in a vacuum is OP as shit.

>> No.30646824

It's almost like people forget that Superheavy Walkers can Stomp at I1 after the enemy has bunched up nicely. D3 free Blast hits on an enemy unit, after the D attacks, that usually cause S6 AP4 hits on them or can even end up REMOVING THE AFFECTED MODEL FROM PLAY. Oh, and if they don't actually die from the wounds, then they have their Initiative next round (Strikedown USR) so they can get the D next round, unless they're a vehicle or MC. So say goodbye to any tarpits or fearless hordes trying to lock these fuckers up.

The only real CC threats to Imperial Knights are Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons (Especially Bloodthirsters), Avatars, and maybe Hive Tyrants, as they all a chance to actually inflict a large amount of damage on the Knight before it strikes and have a high enough WS to help avoid the D back (HT less so).

>> No.30646873


Don't forget tarpits.

>> No.30646880

tarpits get stomped.

>> No.30646920


Just conga line the unit and charge him again next turn.

>> No.30646935

stomps happen after the I1 pile in, and a stomp can walk up a conga line.

>> No.30646957

What I1 pile in? Do you mean the pile in AFTER all blows have been struck (including stomps)?

>> No.30646966


Doesn't matter. Unless you get perfect scatter in a straight line which is nearly impossible, and a conga line also won't pile in more than a couple units.

>> No.30646997


You can see a couple scarabs tarpit a knight for 2+ turns here:


with little effort. Small unit size and stomps having scatter means you can tarpit knights fairly easily.

A knight needs to avoid tarpits at all costs.

>> No.30647038


Not scatter, 3" range limit. Coherency is 2" so just conga out of stomp range.

>> No.30647081


Super-heavy Walkers engaged in combat may make a special type of attack called a Stomp attack. The Stomp attack is made in addition to the Super-heavy Walker’s normal attacks. Stomp attacks are resolved during the Fight sub-phase at the Initiative 1 step. This does not grant the model an additional Pile In move at the Initiative 1 step. A Stomp attack consists of D3 Stomps. To make the first Stomp, place a blast marker so that it is touching, but not over, the Super-heavy Walker model (or the Super-heavy Walker model’s base, if it has one). Each unit that has at least one model even partially under the marker is stomped. For each unit that is stomped, roll on the Stomp table (see opposite) to determine what happens to it. Each subsequent Stomp is made in the same manner as the first, except that the blast marker does not have to be placed touching the Super-heavy Walker. Instead, it must be placed so that it is at least partially within 3" of where the last blast marker was placed, and not over the Super-heavy Walker. This allows you to ‘Stomp forward’ into the enemy! Note that the Super-heavy Walker is not moved – we assume it stomps about but ends up more or less
where it started.
Buildings, Flyers, Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures, Gargantuan Creatures, Flying Gargantuan Creatures, Super-heavy vehicles, Super-heavy Walkers, and Super-heavy Flyers cannot be stomped; do not roll on the Stomp table for them if they fall under the blast marker. Any other units with models under the blast marker are stomped as normal.

>> No.30647096

D6 - 1
Non-vehicle Target - No Effect: The unit being stomped gets out of the way of its lumbering attacker. The attack has no effect.
Vehicle Target - No Effect: The unit being stomped gets out of the way of its lumbering attacker. The attack has no effect.
D6 - 2-5
Non-vehicle Target - Kerr–runch: Each model from the unit being stomped that is even partially under the blast marker suffers a Strength 6 AP4 hit.
Vehicle Target - Kerr-smash: The vehicle being stomped suffers a penetrating hit.
D6 - 6
Non-vehicle Target - Overrun: Each model from the target unit that is even partially under the blast marker is removed from play.
Vehicle Target - Flipped: The vehicle being stomped scatters D6" and then suffers an Explodes! result from the Vehicle Damage table.

>> No.30647106

>people who don't know super-heavy rules commenting on super-heavy rules

>> No.30647121

Termagants having shred was apparently 2 op
those assault 1 guns doing so much work.

Its not like for 1 point more a piece that Guardsmen totally outclass them in every conceivable way.

Its not like for the same price fucking CONSCRIPTS outstrip them.

But lets give like every fucking eldar gun basically rending and let them run and shoot.

fuck this game.

>> No.30647139

They were using the rules wrong, that Knight should have blew through those scarabs so fast it makes your head spin

>> No.30647178

Super-heavy Walkers follow all of the rules for Walkers as defined in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, with the additional rules and exceptions given below.

Super-heavy Walkers are Super-heavy vehicles and use the Super-heavy vehicle rules for Shooting, Vehicle Damage, Catastrophic Damage and Transports (see the Super-heavy Vehicles section).

Super-heavy Walkers can move 12" in the Movement phase unless specified otherwise. Apart from this, they obey the movement rules for Walkers. In addition, Super-heavy Walkers cannot fire Overwatch.

(detailed earlier)

All Super-heavy Walkers have the following special rules:
Fear, Hammer of Wrath, Invincible Behemoth (see Super-heavy Vehicles section), Move Through Cover, Relentless, Smash, Strikedown.

Invincible Behemoth: A Super-heavy vehicle is so large and strongly built that weapons which degrade the armour of smaller vehicles will not effect it. Because of this, any attack that says that the target model is destroyed, wrecked, Explodes! or is otherwise removed from play inflicts D3 Hull Points of damage on a Super-heavy vehicle instead.
In addition, any attacks or special abilities that permanently lower the Armour Values of a target vehicle do not affect a Super-heavy vehicle. Note that attacks or abilities that count the Armour Value as being lower, but do not actually change it, work normally.

>> No.30647228

Stomps. Do. Not. Scatter.

Where did you come UP with this idea?

>> No.30647261

People don't read the rules

>> No.30647303

Too much gluing, painting and sanding resin without ventilation, I suppose.

>> No.30647323


All templates scatter. This is why Heldrakes often shoot up to 12" away from their mouth.

>> No.30647348

I hope FW does some knight related stuff, like extra weapons and other things.

>Actually using the CCW on the knight


>> No.30647423

Do... do you think flamer templates scatter?

>> No.30647462

Then there's this fucking retard.

I want to run an army with a warhound wielding the D and two imperial paladins. What would be the best primary Detachment for that?

>> No.30647464




>> No.30647487


>fuck, my Flamer went backwards

>Oh wacky emperor

>> No.30647520

>biting that bait

>> No.30647531


This is why you don't shoot promethium into strong headwind.

>> No.30647538

Probably Guard. You get a ton of Troops for cheap (130pts. for basic platoon of 25 dudes that gives you 3 scoring units in 1 FOC). You get Creed, put him into a good hole and Outflank that Warhound.

>> No.30647558


To be fair that makes just as much sense as a rocket shooting backwards or a guardsmen throwing a demo charge across the board by it scatting.

>> No.30647606


true, but when you think of a flamer, you think its pretty foolproof, as its point and shoot, though a rather clever anon pointed out wind is a great deterrent.

>> No.30647615

>You're holding it the wrong way-

>Whoa, check out that throw!

>> No.30647629

I bet you've never had a Leman Russ fire at an enemy unit in front of it and manage to kill a command squad taking cover behind the tank.

>rocket shooting backwards

Why do you think they put that instruction on the side of the rocket launcher in Halo?

>throwing a demo charge across the board

15" isn't across the board. And maybe he was particularly strong, the charge bounced or rolled, or something else happened.

>> No.30647643

>guardsman hurls grenade
>it immediately shoots backwards as soon as it leaves his hand

>> No.30647659


>> No.30647660


I like to think that no system is a 100% accurate simulation, but honestly if it only happens a 1/36 chance, it makes for hilarity instead of stupidity.

>> No.30647680

How unrealistic!

>> No.30647706

>The only vehicle with less than AV14 that is considered worth taking is the Wave Serpent,

Nightscythes are AV11 and they seem to do just fine.

>> No.30647708


Flyers obviously don't count.

>> No.30647728

Dice rolls are the best.

>playing Baptism of Fire
>German engineers take cover in bunker
>commies closing in
>2 demo charges
>toss first out the bunker hatch
>blow up a couple of dirty commies
>throw second
>scatters back inside the bunker
>blow up half the squad
>moral check
>roll very well
>High Morale! (+1 to moral checks until failure)
>we all pictured Hans the Hamhanded getting tossed a demo charge that he just flings over his shoulder, it hits the frame of the bunker opening and drops behind him
>everyone's just fucking glad the idiot finally did himself in

>> No.30647755


15" is further than some guns, it is completely illogical that someone could throw a massive bomb further than a pistol or a shotgun.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought some real rocket launchers had the aim towards the enEmy printed on them.

>> No.30647777

>people calling Battle Focus OP?
Really? It looks like a fun fluffy rule to me... What's OP about it?

>> No.30647780

>rather clever anon pointed out wind is a great deterrent.

That only really applies to flamers that actually shoot flames though.

>> No.30647786


The entire point of not being able to run after shooting.

>> No.30647803

Considering that Eldar really don't have a significant point increase to take it... yeah it's pretty powerful.

>> No.30647844

They remove modifying armor saves cause its confusing
>eldar get it, orks lose it
No one can run after shooting unless other circumstances come up
>every eldar has it to represent their swift battle movement
Tyranids having living ammunition that would dig into victims and thus make wounds more likely?
Tyranids are an endless swarm of alien bugs, even when you kill them more come, they literally throw termagants at you to run you out of ammo
>nids lose without number but the fucking imperial guard gain it

Fun and fluffy rules guys. Its great to see that GW definitely isn't biased as fuck towards Eldar.

>> No.30647864


The Tyranid codex is a piss fest about fluff destruction.

Its like point at a dead guy to say that people die.

>> No.30647872

Well, as I said, it might not fly as far, but instead bounce or roll before detonating. And pistols don't usually have that great of a range to begin with.

For a rules standpoint, do you really want to make it more accurate, because S8 AP2 large blast that's bound to hit what your throwing it at... People might find it a bit too useful. Then you either up the price or downgrade the power, at which point it teeters on the "is it even worth taking at all" edge.

Also, above all else, note that the more skilled you are, the less it scatters, and further it flies. BS5 dude won't be able to toss a demo charge as far as a BS2 dude. Guess it's got 'tard strength behind it.

>> No.30647883

Can't wait to see what army gets assault out of reserves.

>> No.30647891

Examples of when it's fucked you over in games? I'm just having a hard time seeing what's OP about an extra D6".

As for it going against the core rules... That to me is the whole point of special rules, to make factions and units distinct. Like space marines not caring about morale or guard getting orders.

>> No.30647901

Gonna go ahead and bet Dark Eldar

>> No.30647910

>not seeing whats OP about and extra D6

>move out of LOS blocking cover
>run back in

>> No.30647914

>space marines not caring about morale

ATSKNF is in the core rules.

>guard getting orders.

Where does it say orders are against core rules?

>> No.30647917


Ill like that if its only from dedicated transports, like, come in from a table edge, and then be able to assault from that, or from a web way portal.

>> No.30647934

Dear god. Just like Jet Packs.
JSJ and now RSR... God damn it.

>> No.30647937

But you know. Lictors. They can't assault from deep strike.

It just feels unfair if you don't get a chance to shoot at the unit assaulting from deep strike

Oh, but its perfectly cool for Dark Eldar. Lightning fast raiders and all that. They get to assault from deepstrike

>> No.30647952

Orks already have this (DA VULTURRR)

>> No.30647954

Yeah. Wow.
Lets see which units of these armies have these rules

Oh wow its Tau and Eldar, arguably the two strongest armies right now

And people wonder why we feel these rules are bullshit

>> No.30647964

Its in the core rules, but it only applies to marines.

I don't really know much about guard orders (I'm just some other anon), so all I know off the top of my head is FRF SRF, which I think makes them shoot twice or something? One could say that goes against the whole 'A model may only shoot once during the shooting phase' thing.

Hey man, the Lictor had to weigh up whether or not it was worth assaulting. It just so happens it burst out of its cover first before making the decision.

>> No.30647978


Current Nid rules are so fucking bad they make me puke

Not just cause of the power level (though that is also disgusting) but because its not even remotely fluffy

Tyranids aren't a horde army even currently, its just about jamming as many flying creatures as you can.

I miss the endless swarm

>> No.30647982

At least it's nowhere near as back as JSJ.
Most of the models with Battle Focus can't move and shoot with reasonable range, right? I'd imagine 24" absolute tops for effective RSR. That's unfair to other 24" armies, but at least it's not longer ranged.

The thing I hate most about JSJ is the fact that, depending on how you do it, it can range from 2-24" of jet pack movement in the assault phase. Not only does that let you hide around corners, it lets you fuck right off away from that unit that spent 4 turns getting into assault range.

>> No.30647995

The only order that really goes against the rules is the back into the fight letting you get free go to ground. And really you can just treat that as opportunity cost of giving up extra shots for increased cover saves.

>> No.30647999

I feel you man, I'm a nid player.
I've been having some good success with dakka flyrants and dakkafexes, though. Hell, I even beat a tau player once by outflanking 2 squads of devilgaunts that horribly raped his firewarrior teams.

Meanwhile, the remainder of my army hid out of LOS for the rest of the game because I got dicked over by cover deployment (72" Large Blast shots do nasty things).

>> No.30648004

To all the dipshits saying Battle Focus isn't OP, they also got free BS4 and a ton of other OP shit. Eldar book is full of OP shit. Even if you think BF is fine it's still retarded to give it to Eldar. Who also have the Revenant, by the way, the best superheavy.

>it only fucks over other 24" armies

This is every army not IG, you fucking genius.

>> No.30648006

Battle Focus is still incredibly strong, it puts eldar troops threat range at insane levels. Dire avengers get to move up, shoot like they're in rapid fire, and then fall back into cover/around a corner or whatever and even if they don't they're probably out of rapid fire range for the other guy, unless its Tau I guess.

>> No.30648007


Nids still have the without numbers ruke as part of a datasheet but it is still pretty shitty though without that said the send in the next wave rule is also shitty

>> No.30648008


I am a Tyranid player as well, it hurts, how every fluffy rule is gone now, and the one reaming is a bane instead of a boon. its silly, its harsh, but its what we got. I hope for a less harsh assualt rules in the next edition.

>> No.30648014


>Meanwhile, the remainder of my army hid out of LOS for the rest of the game

Forging a narrative

>> No.30648036

>Its in the core rules, but it only applies to marines.

Still in the core rules. Also, IG could get it at one point through WD doctrines.

>'A model may only shoot once during the shooting phase'

MCs? Vehicles? Terminators with CML? Attack Bikes?


It gives the unit one extra shot with lasguns.

But more to the point, what anon was saying was that in general rules idea, assaulting after deep striking, from reserves, consolidating into CC, etc. if not something that's not really done with current rules. Special rules that allow this have been removed and rules have been changed to disallow it. So for suddenly one faction to go completely against the philosophy, while no other faction has even some units that pull it off feels a bit counter-intuitive and going against the norm. Like if they had given 'Nids the ability to assault from reserves. It's something that has been weeded out from the game, but now one faction just comes in and does it standard.

>> No.30648038

yeah, but jet packs also pay for the previlege

>> No.30648085

a lot of problems with the eldar would be fixed if they had just kept BS3 like was intended.

Suddenly guide and TL weapons aren't nearly as devastating.

>> No.30648122

Ah. I apologise for my lack of knowledge, like I said I'm not too familiar with guard doctrines and the like.

And I suppose I should've specified about infantry models specifically shooting once, but even if I give it a moment of thought, I can think of several that ignore that anyway.

>But more to the point...
A very good point.

>> No.30648133

>But muh elves are more talented than filthy mon-keigh.
Fuck, I know people who insist Firewarriors should be BS4 or higher because 'they train for their entire life.'
Makes marines seem kind of average when vets have BS4 as well.

>> No.30648165


>> No.30648185

>Some of the most well-trained warriors in the entire galaxy
>Same BS as Grots

>> No.30648191


Only Six sides on the dice to represent, but yea, its funny when you think about it.

>> No.30648197

>>Some of the most well-trained warriors in the entire galaxy
>>Same BS as Grots
the only grots that make it too battle are skilled and intelligent enough to live with a horde of orks who are as likely to eat you as they are to brutally murder you

>> No.30648201

>feels a bit counter-intuitive and going against the norm... now one faction just comes in and does it standard
That to me is a good thing. The factions should be distinct from each other. The only question is whether it makes the game unbalanced, but since the game is already unbalanced... eh.

>Even if you think BF is fine it's still retarded to give it to Eldar
They move and react faster than the other races. It makes perfect sense for them.

>> No.30648208

So I have an idea for assaulting; say you failed your charge because overwatch and twin linked and all that bullshit meant you were an inch out of range, or you just failed your roll, whatever. My idea is, if you fail your charge but you roll higher than half the distance needed, then you are allowed to move your units up to that many inches towards the enemy you declared the charge against. Would it fix some issues in the game?

>> No.30648222

>turn1 my entire ork army declares a charge, they all roll above 8s but obviously aren't getting into assault, they "still all move 8" extra

>> No.30648223

I reckon just moving the distance you rolled, even if you failed, would be nice.
But hell, I suppose failing means you're taking cover or whatever, but it does still dick the assaulting player over fairly hard.

>> No.30648228

You know what makes perfect sense for the Tyranids

Without Number
Re-rolling wounds
Termagants being insanely cheap for what they give
Warriors that aren't useless
lictors being able to assault from deepstrike
hormagaunts not eating themselves the moment they're out of synapse
having insane amounts of possible mutations to represent their ability to adapt
The Swarmlord not existing

And yet none of these are true.

'perfect sense for the eldar'

Then lets think about what makes perfect sense for every other race, you'll notice that they do not in fact, get what makes perfect sense.

>> No.30648230


Honestly, thats more thematic then anything, in an open field, where people can see eachother, an ork will always charge.


>> No.30648238

Doesn't it say somewhere that you can't declare a charge against something you can't reach? I.e, beyond 12"?
Of course, if they were 12 inches away and suddenly your entire army is 4... That's fucking terrifying.

>> No.30648262

And They Shall Know No Fear makes perfect sense for Marines (it's even in the name!), and everything Deep-Striking makes perfect sense for Daemons. It is a shame Nids don't really get anything, though.

Also personally I don't think Orders don't make sense for Guard. If the idea is to represent how strict/inflexible their chain of command is, why do they get extra tactical options from it?

>> No.30648294


Obviously you'd either have to implement the rule that you can't declare the charge against anything more than 12" away, but it makes more sense thematically than the current version which, if they fail, just has them stopping dead in their tracks for what ever reason. It's supposed to be a charge. Also if you're afraid of Orks in close combat then you're pretty stupid, base strength 3, always attacking last, losing other half your army just from a bad round of shooting, and the rest before they get to attack. A character that gets destroyed in challenges, and only one cc weapon with an AP value in the entire army. Truly terrifying indeed.

>> No.30648338

Thankfully, Ork Bikers can help eliminate some of this terrible pressure.

Some of it.

>> No.30648362


Have recently been playing around with them and can I just say, Twin Linked Dakka guns are a god send.

>> No.30648578

>S5 TL
>Orks, so low BS doesn't really matter much to them
>Can harm AV11
Screw Necrons, I got Bikes! And lootaz, but Bikes are a good backup.

>> No.30648792

well you should clearly see that its kinda bullshit that 'its fun and fluffy' excuses OP rules on other races, but its ignored when it comes to races that aren't a designer's pet like the orks and nids

>> No.30648835

>its ignored when it comes to races that aren't a designer's pet like the orks and nids
doint put those together, one is an npc faction and the other is as core to 40k as eldar and space marines.

Orks have a book coming, it could go the same way the eldar did, or it could go the same way as nids, but until then dont you dare lock us in with you space bug scum.

>> No.30648863

Yeah, that is bullshit, but it doesn't mean the other factions should lose their fun rules. Just means everybody should get them.

I'm really hoping Orks get something good, but now you've got me worried... they really do seem to be lacking fans in the design team. Maybe Vetock can be their salvation?

>> No.30648877


Obviously they need rules that lets them get shit done in challenges.

>> No.30648887


>one ravager can kill it for half it's point value
>I field 3 of them

Huehuehue fuck your huge armor

>> No.30648892

>The factions should be distinct from each other

So lets give each codex their own game concept defying trait. Eldar can run and shoot, Marines can deep strike onto enemies, IG can shoot at models engaged in CC, DE can assault from reserves, Tau can overwatch for other units, etc.

>since the game is already unbalanced

So lets just fuck it up even more?

>> No.30648932

>nids aren't integral to the setting

i know this is bait.

I.. I must not bite.

>> No.30648944

Spoiler: you can't.

>> No.30648951

>So lets give each codex their own game concept defying trait
Sure, yeah. As long as it's fun/balanced/reasonably costed, I wouldn't have a problem with any of those things. Guards shooting into CC would be especially fluffy (mind you, so would Orks)- though probably hard to balance.

>> No.30648982

>a lot of problems with the eldar would be fixed if they had just kept BS3 like was intended
I agree with this. I suppose the vehicles having BS4 isn't too weird, but it feels silly that the Guardians all have Aspect-level skillz.

>> No.30648991

All eldar are perfect gods of combat how dare you suggest otherwise.

>> No.30649017

Get rid of Twin-linked weapons on guns / weapons that don't need it and I'll be happy. str 8 24 shots twin linked hitting on 3's reroll misses and rending is not fun.

>> No.30649018

Perfect gods of combat who are given bad armour and absurdly short-ranged guns!


>> No.30649047

what don't you like fun anon

its no problem if you just play casually

just forge a narrative anon

>> No.30649251

>Get rid of Twin-linked weapons on guns / weapons that don't need it
but my serpent shields need to be TL AND BS4

>> No.30649334

But anon, the game's already unbalanced, so... eh?

>> No.30649342


The recasts are already being sold

>> No.30649637

Jet seer council is like 800 points and even dedicated serpent spam only lists would be pushing for 6 serpents (plus necessary support units) at 1750 , there wouldnt be a ton of room for big units like wk and councils

>> No.30649848

Point is there are far more unbalanced things in the game than Battle Focus, which is actually flavourful. Seems an odd thing to get upset about compared to, say, rerollable 2+ saves.

>> No.30649876

>can't complain because starving african children

Got it.

>> No.30649916

You can complain all you like, it just seems odd is all. I'm still not really getting it. Any battle reports or anything in which Battle Focus made all the rage-inducing difference?

>> No.30649982


Recommended tubes to watch battle reps? I'm tired of watching all the misplays on Miniwargaming, like rolling saves then when they fail doing a look out sir on the same wound. That and Jay's eyebrows/ constant surprised expression annoy the fuck out of me.

>> No.30650072

What is battle focus compensating for? I mean, were Eldar units so bad previously that they just had to be given something totally different to account for their lacking in other fronts? Did the price go up? Is there some negative effect of using this ability? Why was it given in the first place? Why doesn't anyone else get anything like it?

>> No.30650149

What a pile of stupid questions.

>> No.30650176

I call bullshit, you did not play this game, you are just making it up to "prove" a point.

Pics or it didnt happen.

>> No.30650186


>all this butthurt

I'm still getting one

>> No.30650272

None of these things is a reason to consider it overpowered- that can only be proven by how it performs in games. But anyway...

>Why was it given in the first place? Why doesn't anyone else get anything like it?
Flavour. Space Elves gotta go fast. In Epic all Eldar units can shoot then move (normally units can only move then shoot) to represent their speed and prescience. Arguably Dark Eldar should have it too- maybe they will when they get a new codex, who knows?

>were Eldar units so bad previously that they just had to be given something totally different to account for their lacking in other fronts?
Guardians were freaking awful, horribly overpriced troops, and Dire Avengers weren't great by any stretch of the imagination.

>What is battle focus compensating for?
Doesn't need to compensate for anything necessarily. But I would say T3, 5+ save, 12" range on their guns (4+ and 18" for Avengers).

>Did the price go up?
Yes, Guardians went up by 1 point (and, as I said, they were overpriced in the previous codex). It doesn't make sense to compare one codex to the previous one though- you have to compare it to other current codices. Balance in a 4th edition codex isn't very relevant to balance in a 6th edition one.

Personally I wouldn't have given Guardians WS and BS 4. But I'd need to see evidence that Battle Focus is specifically a problem- which would have to be that it makes big differences in competitive games.

>> No.30650335

>Flavour. Space Elves gotta go fast.

That's what Fleet was for.

>In Epic

So I can't compare to 40k codexes but comparing 40k with Epic is just fine?

In Epic a missile launcher armed team of tactical marines could also blow up land raiders just fine, so I guess that's coming up in the next codexes.

>> No.30650410

What's wrong OP, can't take on a few orks and their dakka?

>> No.30650427

>So I can't compare to 40k codexes
Yes you can. Please read what I write before you reply. You can compare it to other CURRENT codices, but it makes no sense to compare it to the previous codex because nobody plays with the previous codex, it was written something like 6 years ago, and (like everything else in 40k) it was never very well balanced anyway.

Example: let's say in the previous codex Guardians were 30 points each. And in the new one they still cost 30 points, but they each get Shuricannon instead of Shuricats. Holy shit, free Shuricannon! They must be amazing now, right?

>That's what Fleet was for.
Then say it represents how fast they think/react and the fact that their leaders (and maybe ordinary elves to some extent, I'm not sure) can see the future. Why does this matter so much to you? It's just a fun little rule.

I'll ask again: in which games has it been demonstrated to be OP? That's really all that matters.

>> No.30650540

Epic isn't a current codex.

>in which games has it been demonstrated to be OP?

In which games has it been demonstrated not to have made a difference?

>> No.30650550

Jesus you are dumb if you really think that battle focus is what Eldar OP. The problem is not in the guardians. Its allies, jet bikes, war war walkers, wraithknights and waveserpents.

Battle focus actually makes guardians usefull and more unique. Giving a bad unit buffs does not make it OP.

>> No.30650581

>In which games has it been demonstrated not to have made a difference?
What? Are you
that making a difference = OP? Because that would make more or less everything OP.

>> No.30650584


>> No.30650589

>Its a valid reason for me to say that BF is OP because some retards thinks ATSKNF is broken.

>> No.30650603

>Epic isn't a current codex
I wasn't saying 'it's balanced because Epic uses it', I was using Epic as an example of how GW has used a similar mechanic to capture the flavour of how Space Elves fight.

>> No.30650605

But how can mere men stand against such Flashy Bitz?

>> No.30650618

>if you really think

What made you think anything of the sort?

Just because it doesn't make them OP doesn't mean they aren't screwing around with something that has been pretty constant so far. Did heroic intervention make vanguard OP? Don't remember anyone even really using them. So why was it removed, just like every other ability to assault from reserves was removed?

>Giving a bad unit buffs does not make it OP.

There's a ton of buff you could have given them without tampering with run/shoot mechanic.

>> No.30650648

What do you think is wrong with the run/shoot mechanics? I think it's both uniqe and cool.

Glad you agree that it does not make them OP atleast.

>> No.30650670

Wait, so now you're not saying it's OP, you're just opposed to changing 40k's rules in any way? Why? Are the core rules that wonderful? What's wrong with having exceptions to rules if they don't result in imbalance?

I'm beginning to think you just dislike fun.

And this is besides the point, but assuming for whatever reason that new rules are inherently bad, it's not even that new. Anyone with a jetpack or jetbike has already had access to (a better version of) move-shoot-move.

>> No.30650710

I don't think anon likes factions having unique rules. Not sure why- to me it's one of the plus points of 40k, and I just wish they did it more (those poor, poor Nids).

OK, OK, synapse is unique. But not in a good way.

>> No.30650731

My fear is that GW is gonna make everyone more or less the same. Introducing huge MC's for everyone etc. That's why I like things like support fire, Chapter tactics, orders and BF.

>> No.30650734

Never, ever, said it was OP.

But if you set up fundamentals of the game and enforce them, suddenly going "fuck it, lets just ignore all this completely", you got to ask yourself, what will the change next? If they won't even stick with the core rules (with possibly a few special, limited exceptions) what's the point of even having them? If each army is going to diverge from the core rules with "ignore all this", what good are having core rules? Maybe next BA can assault from reserves (because hey, steel rain or black rage or something, bitches!), orks can consolidate into combat (WAAAAAAAAAGH!) and IG can shoot into combat and even target their own units as if they were enemies (everyone's getting their shit blammed!)

Are people really saying there was no other way of fixing guardians and avengers other than battle focus? Nothing at all?

>> No.30650773

>trusting GW to write good rules

>> No.30650787

People are not saying that there was no other way. But I really liked the BF rule and its much cooler than giving them one stat point more or reduce point cost. It makes them unique from other shootydudes.

I don't mind rules that bend the original rules if they are not overly complex. Which I dont find BF to be.

>> No.30650797

>you got to ask yourself, what will the change next?
This is a slippery slope argument, and in order to accept it I also have to agree that what comes next would actually be bad. But
>Maybe next BA can assault from reserves
>IG can shoot into combat and even target their own units as if they were enemies
These sound good to me. Not sure what you mean about consolidating though- doesn't that happen anyway?

>what good are having core rules?
They govern turn order, deployment, combat... everything, really. Special rules for each faction would make zero sense if there weren't any, obviously.

It's not about 'fixing' things, it's about making a fun game. Battle Focus is fun.

>> No.30650819

>so now you're not saying it's OP

When ever did I say it was OP?

>I'm beginning to think you just dislike

If you can't have fun without ridiculous rules, you need to re-evaluate your fun.

>jetpack or jetbike

1) Those are a few units, usually somewhat expensive, not about all the models in the codex
2) you do the move instead of assaulting, while with battle focus you can move, shoot/run, AND assault, gaining bonus distance while having the ability to fire while doing it.

Why couldn't Battle Focus just give them the ability to move in assault phase?

>> No.30650853

what exactly am i looking at here

>> No.30650856

You can't run and assault.

>Why couldn't Battle Focus just give them the ability to move in assault phase?
Because that wouldnt make it unique. BF gives you choices of aggro/deffensive play or just shooting while running to an objective.

>> No.30650861

> hile with battle focus you can move, shoot/run, AND assault
Wut? You can't assault in turn you ran.

>> No.30650883

>ridiculous rules
You're still not saying what's ridiculous about it, beyond 'it doesn't appear in the big rulebook'.

>When ever did I say it was OP?
Sorry, that must have been me reading into your posts. I couldn't imagine what your complaint was, and to be honest I still can't.

>with battle focus you can move, shoot/run, AND assault
No you can't.

>Why couldn't Battle Focus just give them the ability to move in assault phase?
That would be less flexible. What's wrong with it the way it is?

>> No.30651074

It'd actually be fairly easy to balanced for IG shooting into CC. Either do a 50/50 for each shot before you roll for Toughness, or roll respective odds (by that I mean like 20 IG vs 10 Eldar is a 3+ to hit IG).

>> No.30651092

That and his stupid fucking soul-patch threw me off watching their entire channel.

>> No.30651146

The perspective on this is really fucking with me. Are the battlesuits THAT massive? Is the Knight THAT small?

>> No.30651169

Odds for each hit scored hitting a friendly? That could work, although it would be nice to have high BS shots (like Assassins) being more accurate.

I'd think friendly fire should always force a Leadership test on the squad fired on, maybe at an extra penalty.

>> No.30651189

I think the Riptide looks tall because it's been... ripped in half.

>> No.30651208

I don't think BS would come into it all that much. I mean, think about it, there's a bunch of dudes beating the shit out of eachother, shit's gonna get messy, yeah? They're gonna move around and all that. Meaning IG is just gonna be blindfiring on full auto into the fray, because a marytrs death is a good death.

>> No.30651229

Oh yes, but I think a Vindicare, for example, should still be able to do its stuff. What's all that training for if it can't pick a dude out from a melee?

>> No.30651274

Maybe if your BS is higher than the odds to hit your own guys, it halves your odds of hitting your own guys? Idk, might get complicated.
On a mildly related note, in one of the Horus Heresy books, a Vindicare shoots out all the guns of a bandit group from like a kilometre away or something. Cool stuff.

>> No.30651357

Praise the dice gods

>Playing against Eldar with Draigowing (terrible idea)
>Jetseer warlord is untouchable because he kites me staying behind my army bufffing jetbikes and a WK until I dropped the WK
>Fail a morale check with my 3 remaining Paladin squad after being lanced by walkers
>Run 10"... towards the Farseer
>And They Shall Know No Fear!
>Rally + 3" consolidate towards it
>Move through a forest, 6/5 on the rolls, end up 11" away from the Farseer
>No glorious 12
>Roll an 11
>Get in combat
>Fumble all the rolls except for one
>Get one wound through
>Force weapon activates
>Warlord rolls 4++, 3
>He has the rerolling power
>Rolls again
>Farseer gets killed heroically in CC
>Consolidate menacingly towards the Eldar
>Fire Prism shells my Paladins, turning them into a fine red mist

>> No.30651540

Yeah if you throw your 500p AEIOB Character at the enemy overlord and then whine why he keeps hitting himself.

I'd say get good, but that's overdoing it by far.

>> No.30651688

Can anyone tell me the invincible behemoth rule that it has? Like from apoc or escalation. Not sure what it does in game

>> No.30651753

So, lessons learnt today: Str D is still OP bullshit which kills everything, even if it's new and shiny. Good to know.

>> No.30651793


Cool, when Necrons get a character which doesn't instantly die to average captain joe's powerfist or had anything at all which strikes above I2, or shit, even had good AP2 shooting then yeah, MSS would be OP. As they are, they're the only thing which makes Necron characters which aren't Destroyer Lords worth dick in combat - S7 AP1 is literally worse than a SM sergeant with a powerfist and at T5 good luck ever facing any of the multiple S10 things in combat, you just die without MSS.

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