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[ERROR] No.30539603 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Can we please talk about Eclipse Phase?

>> No.30539632

>>30539603
What would you like to discuss?

>> No.30539656

>>30539632
How great it is

>> No.30539668

>>30539656
I wouldn't know, I've never been able to con my players into playing it, but at least I've got them into GURPS.

>> No.30539808

>>30539656
What's so great about it?

>> No.30540568

>>30539808
>>30539656
I do not understand.

>> No.30540700

>>30539603
>Can we please talk about Eclipse Phase?


The closest thing we'll have to an Eclipse Phase Film.

>>>/tv/41974715

>> No.30541499

The problem with Uploads is that they are no longer You.

They are just automatons that behave exactly like you, but you personally are dead.

>> No.30541521

>>30539603
Do we have to?

>> No.30541534

>>30541499
You’re bringing up issues of persistence of memory, personal identity and existential horror here?

Welcome aboard!

>> No.30541553

>>30541499
Uploads are not done for your benefit but for the benefit of society.

For continuity's sake they are considered you.

>> No.30541562

>>30541499

They are just automatons that behave, think and feel just like you did. Possessing your semantic, declarative, procedural and episodic memories; hopes, dreams, drives, ambitions, fears, doubts, affectations, aesthetic sensibilities and everything else that you would quantify as being a very distinctive and personal feature of yourself.

>> No.30541581

>>30541562
Minus the life experience you lost between your death and cortical stack being updated, of course.

>> No.30541587

>>30541499
>>30541534
>>30541553
>>30541562
Every EP thread this discussion and everytime it's the same and barely related to EP itself.

>> No.30541592

>>30541581
>Minus the life experience you lost between your death and cortical stack being updated, of course.

This, this is what keeps me awake at night.

>> No.30541594

>>30541587
>barely related
It's one of the core concepts.

>> No.30541613

>>30541592
Have multiple instances of yourself running around and having divergent experiences. Selectively merge the experiences down into a representative sample.

>> No.30541617

>>30541594
Yes, but these guys keep questioning the basic concept. It's like going into a thread about a fantasy setting with magic and discussing why magic isn't real and doesn't make sense and why there shouldn't be a game about it.

>> No.30541624

>>30541613
Fortunate is the one who escapes the workshops of the Clock Makers without realizing that he is but a clockwork copy of whoever he remembers being.

>> No.30541634

>>30541613
Which one is you?

>> No.30541669

>>30541617
That's because it's considerably more interesting and philosophical concept than magic.

>> No.30541670

>>30541534
This, it's part of the horror half of EP. People sometimes seem to think that EP is supposed to be an utopia.

>> No.30541673

>>30541617
Yes but questioning it is one of the core themes of the game.

>> No.30541677

>>30541617
>discussing why magic

https://archive.foolz.us/tg/thread/29399352
https://archive.foolz.us/tg/thread/29462481

The tome of Fireball is hollow and contains two Molotov cocktails.

A tome of dominate person contains PCP and a leash.

The tome of "Summon Viper" contains a pissed of snake.

The Tome of Plague contains a dead bird with no visible causes of death, not even blunt force trauma.

Tome of comprehend languages has a hollow cutout in it where a tourist dictionary has been hidden away.

>> No.30541690

>>30541677
That's not the same.

>> No.30541697

>>30541613
> Have multiple instances of yourself.
> One of them starts thinking it's the real you, and convinces you you're a copy.
> Kills you and steals your memory later.
Gotta roll high on psychosurgery. Or low, rather.

>>30541673
From the books I more get the idea that it's widely accepted and not questioned at all. With the people who can afford it switching bodies all the time or egocasting all over, while the poor save up all their life for a new morph in the end, and the occasional egocast or holiday in another morph.

>> No.30541868

Reminds me a lot of that novel series with Takeshi Kovacs and the Envoys. Broken Angels I think it was?

Basically everyone has an implant in their spine called a cortical stack, and this stack contains all of their memories and personality. Human bodies are universally referred to as "sleeves" and only stacks are considered people. Getting your sleeve taken away and being put into storage for decades or even centuries is how people serve time in prison. In fact one of the highest crimes is copying someone and sleeving them twice.

The series doesn't seem to think much of the continuity flaw. Transmitting a stack over interstellar distances is how people FTL travel. Technically speaking when the sleeve you are born in dies or is killed, you the person also die. The stack is simply a record, you don't exist or are conscious inside it. Any attempt to bring you back only results in a copy of you which is indistinguishable to everyone else.

>> No.30541875

How creepy would you feel if you escaped a facility and found out you were a copy of whoever you remembered being?

>> No.30541939

>>30541868
It's a transhuman setting, they're basically the same...
These books talk about back-ups, but IIRC, they don't tell if the cortical stacks slowly... absorb your mind and if you run your body from there (read some books where it happens), or if they're just back-ups like EP.

> Transmitting a stack
m8, it's not the stack that moves, it's the ego.

>> No.30541972

>>30541875
Not creeped out, but worried about my new financial and social situation. From an egocentric standpoint, I just lost all my possessions and relationships.

>> No.30541981

>>30541697
>>30541613
Why the fuck would he think he's a copy? He's not a copy, we're all me.

If psychosurgery is considered dying, then we both die when our minds get spliced back together.

>> No.30542016

>>30541868
The Kovacs novels by Richard Morgan.
Altered Carbon, Broken Angels, and Woken Furies. Good books, they were one of the inspirations to Eclipse Phase.

In that series of novels, you are considered your memories and personality, which is recorded in your cortical stack as a screenshot - getting your brain splattered across the wall just means you're stuck in your cortical stack until someone pulls you out of it and puts you in virtual reality or a new body. Stack is just a frozen instance of you that is still you.

>> No.30542023

>>30541981
> He's not a copy, we're all me.
No, you are you, and copies of you are copies of you. The instant they're separated from you, they experience different things differently, and are not you anymore.

> If psychosurgery is considered dying
We're not talking of psychosurgery, but of forking.
Although psychosurgery is close to dying since it implies fucking up your brains to erase things or add new ones. I guess it's not dying to soul-minded folk.

> then we both die when our minds get spliced back together
Forks usually die, and the main ego only gets their memories back. It's not a real merger of minds.

>> No.30542050

Death and old age have their price as well. And it's too expensive for me. In desperation, one's own humanity seems like such a small price to pay.

>> No.30542067

>>30542050
As treatment for encumbering and/or degenerative conditions. Huntington’s disease, Alzheimer’s (other forms of dementia,) blindness, deafness, and other myriad conditions. To provide protection against environmental hazards, ionising-radiation, toxins, drowning, etc.

>> No.30542085

>>30541499
>The problem with Uploads is that they are no longer You.


Epistemologically, we are only what we remember of ourselves

>> No.30542098

>>30542023
>No, you are you, and copies of you are copies of you. The instant they're separated from you, they experience different things differently, and are not you anymore.

I am me; the person who I was yesterday was also me, and the girl I was twenty years ago was still me then. Adding to me does not take away what I am, just changes it. It'd take wiping memories to do that.

>We're not talking of psychosurgery, but of forking.
Psychosurgery is how you merge forks back into the "main" split.

>Forks usually die, and the main ego only gets their memories back. It's not a real merger of minds.
See, this is why the "main ego" would be in stasis somewhere in a discreet private location, and ALL of me running around outside are forks of it. Then there's no real worry about which one is the "real" me, is there? Besides, the easiest way to handle it is to update the main mind with the new memories, then upload the spliced version into all the fork minds. BOOM, I, the fork part of me, keep my experiences I had, and also now have all the OTHER fork memories of what I was doing elsewhere. I haven't died, I've just remembered what else I did that day. Or week.

>> No.30542116

To quote The Major from Hellsing (one of the few times a complete monster might have a point.)

*after being called a monster* "Wrong. I'm human. There's but one thing which makes us human. One's own will... Don't associate me with a pitiful monster like Alucard who uses blood as a currency of the soul, and has to keep taking in other people to go on living. Don't lump me together with one as feeble as him. So long as I have my own will, should I be reduced to nothing more than a brain floating in a glass jar full of culture fluid, or even memory circuits in a huge supercomputer... I'll STILL be human. Humans are beings of soul, of mind, of will.

>> No.30542141

>>30542085
But it's not. Haven't you read the EP books?
They make it clear uploading makes a copy of the brain.

The only process that doesn't is the one that slowly reroutes shit off your original morph's brains to the other's. But then it's not super clear either because in one description of it, it mentions it all passing by a virtual brain copy, and a hundred pages later, it forgets the virtual brain entirely.

>> No.30542151

>>30541875
>How creepy would you feel if you escaped a facility and found out you were a copy of whoever you remembered being?
That's not creepy. That's not even an existential blip. What would be creepy if you escaped a facility and found out you were a spliced together copy of 8 or so different people.

>> No.30542160

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHKan75x7GI

1:45

>> No.30542166

I think I would be okay in a post-human future. Because I don't worry about stuff like "am I me"? Meeting a fork would just illicit a shrug and maybe a handshake. I am not bothered about implications of psychosurgery, unless it was the torture kind. I have a job to do and I'll do it. Let the philosophers wring their hands over the Ship of Theseus. I don't care.

Now that I type that out I realize I would be That Guy if I showed up to an EP game. Maybe this isn't a game I should try.

>> No.30542174

>>30542160
No one cares about the man in the box, the man who disappears.

>> No.30542190

>>30542166
Characters and people in the EP setting accept it entirely and don't give a shit about it, unless they're crazy bioconservatives.

>> No.30542200

>>30542174
Hugh Jackman's character created a 'magic' trick with a device with a not-so-clear function. It does one of two things: it teleports the user a short distance away and leaves behind a perfect clone of said user, or it creates a perfect clone of the user a short distance away.

>> No.30542213

>>30542200
Because the duplicate was perfect in every way, he had absolutely no way of knowing whether or not he was simply the first clone. The first time he used the machine, he killed the one who was 'teleported,' meaning he either killed the original Jackman, or (since he rigged the device to kill the man who was standing on it after activation) it meant that he died every single time he used the device and the clone produced by it simply thought that he'd been teleported. When your memories are perfectly clear, and the other guy's memories appear the same, the only thing you have to cling to is your perspective.

>> No.30542225

>>30542213
Hell, the same thing was in 'The Sixth Day.' The movie's a good deal older than 'The Prestige,' but I'll spoiler-tag it anyway.

As with the former, don't read before watching unless you want spoilers.

The villain and his henchmen use cloning technology to gain effective immortality. It somehow scans their brains at the time of death and produces a flawless copy in the vat immediately afterward. Unfortunately, it's made abundantly clear in the ending that there's no transfer of consciousness going on. The villain, while dying of a gunshot wound, desperately finishes the cloning process for a new clone of himself. The new clone then steps out and casually starts taking the dying progenitor's clothing. Here's their exchange:

Villain: "You're not even gonna wait until I die?"

Clone!Villain: "Would you?"

You can actually see the moment in the villain's eyes when he realizes that cloning tech doesn't give you immortality. He's about to die, and someone who looks exactly like him is about to take over his life.

>> No.30542231

>>30542166
You're not That Guy. That's a perfectly fine way to think about it.

"oh no I got shot in the head and now I'm over there am I a copy and my real self is dead wait no I'm right here and no-one gives a fuck because I right now am still here, time to get on with trying to keep not dying"

>> No.30542268

I'm sure the traditional definition of dying doesn't entail leaving behind a working duplicate/functioning copy/qualified replacement.

>> No.30542285

>>30542268
You're like the opposite extreme of a sociopath: you think that your perspective is the only one on Earth that doesn'tmatter.

>> No.30542286

>>30542225
Except that there's also nothing wrong about the fact that the protagonist gets copied too, and both versions are treated equally.

Dying is bad. If I have a copy of myself that's going to outlive me to take revenge, that's a bonus. I'd still rather not die, though.

>> No.30542298

>>30542286
>He and myself would be quite opposed to calling him a clone. Clone is loaded with all sorts of connotations. Like abomination, aberration, and other words that many not necessarily start with the letter 'a.'

>> No.30542313

>>30542286

Well yeah. It's like having identical twin brother though, although with shared memories.

>> No.30542317

>>30542225
>>30542286
You also forget the immediate next bit, where the villain, dying of a gunshot wound, tackles the bloodthirsty AHNULD SWARTHYNEGGER to the ground in order to save the clone version of himself, and tells him to survive. He clearly does care that some version of him survives, even if he doesn't make it. Spoilers: the clone doesn't.

>> No.30542328

>>30542313
>I'd certainly feel exceptional camaraderie for someone whom I, shall we say, 'share such a close history' with.

>> No.30542330

>>30542298
Atrocity, aboriginal, anti-[words], etc.

>> No.30542332

>>30542285
What if I believe my perspective is more important than others, because it's the only one I've got, but believe this holds true for everyone?

>> No.30542343

>>30542332
That's narcissism.

>> No.30542347

>>30542286
>I have a copy of myself that's going to outlive me to take revenge, that's a bonus. I'd still rather not die, though.


I'd call it a collaborator. If it continued, It would be called a Zerg Rush.

>> No.30542350

Speaking of this, I've been thinking of GMing EP where I give a premade character to all the PC, where they essentially play the same copy of a dead person.

Might be good...

>> No.30542356

>>30542343
>That's narcissism.

Top kek

>> No.30542369

>>30541624
Fortunate is the one who escapes the workshops of the Clock Makers without realizing that he is but a clockwork copy of whoever he remembers being. Only to become shocked upon discovering an encampment of other (arguably) equally confused self’s.

"498, 499, 500!"


Confusion leads to anger, anger leads to discussion, discussion leads planning, planning leads to a siege against the biomechanical horror that dragged you away to some 'workshop' where it churns out naive 'escapees.'

Even creepier if the 'first escapee' survives by finding the broken down remains of prior escapees at all the traps and other hazardous obstacles.

*Bonus points if one obstacle requires them to construct makeshift equipment from his/her/its 'predecessors.'

**BONUS POINTS! If they discover this has been going on for more than a few weeks when they stumble upon a landfill of thousands

>> No.30542385

If it was gradual enough, say, a parasite slowly burrowed into your brain, very slowly, whilst secreting suitable compounds so that it would remain beneath your notice, and that as it consumed brain tissue, its exceptionally niche physiology permitted it to instinctively imitate the brain tissue it was consuming, as it was consuming it, and this was occurring very, very slowly. Would you at any stage notice?

[Barring of course some nausea, perhaps subtle changes in mood and appetite.]

>> No.30542393

>>30542313
>Well yeah. It's like having identical twin brother though, although with shared memories.

I would be able to play chess by myself more effectively. Also I'll require purchasing an additional toothbrush, bus ticket, and I'll be occupying two bus seats, to the annoyance of other commuters. My food intake would be doubled. Also I'll be developing asynchronous developmental disorders relating to hyper-lateralization of brain function. I shall call it Doppelgänger Dissociation.

You'd think the hairdressing costs would double, but no. I'll be able to cut my own hair now!

>> No.30542397

>>30542369

Will there be...cake?

>> No.30542400

...right, but here's the thing: you're dead. You won't be "happy with the results." You're dead, at least in the initial scenario you proposed.

That leads me to the followup question: if you fail to vanish when your clone is created, then is he 'you' only by your death and disappearance?

>> No.30542446

>>30542393

It will still be incest, not masturbation

>> No.30542612

>>30542350
Sounds fun. Give them different morphs or appearances, too.

>> No.30542635

>>30541875
One of the official adventures for EP involves playing a party entirely made up of forks of the same person investigating their original's disappearance.

>> No.30542644

>>30542166
Nothing wrong with that, there's plenty of people in EP who feel that way.

>> No.30543606

Is there any way to have a wholely natural person who is friendly to transhuman society make sense in the setting? As far as I'm aware, the only natural humans in the setting are, at best, suspicious of transhumanity, and I feel that attitude wouldn't work in a PC party.

>> No.30543697

>>30543606
Sure, you could have a more moderate bioconservative or something.

Do note that even the Jovians are test tube babies, though.

Also if you make a completely standard 21st century human with fancy gear you will need some really, really fancy gear to be as good as everyone else. A Flat lacks basic genemods, not to mention that when you die you'll be dead. Oh, and you can't travel interplanetary distances without spending months on a transport ship.

It could work, but you'll need to work around your disadvantages.

>> No.30544384

>>30541499
>The problem with Uploads is that they are no longer You.
Sure they are.

>They are just automatons that behave exactly like you, but you personally are dead.
Nope. I'm that automaton. And any other automatons made from a copy of that upload.

Don't worry, biocon, you'll get it one day.

>> No.30544437

>>30544384
They are a exact copy. Not you. Its like a printer. The papers are the exact same but not.

>> No.30544476

>>30544437
>They are a exact copy. Not you.
Aww, you're cute. You and your "souls".

Once forks come about, "me" ceases to be a label I use for a single person. It becomes a collective, a series of minds all sharing an identity.

Once you stop believing in fairies and magic, you'll get it mortal. Then maybe you can join us Ultimates, and push yourself to perfection!

>> No.30544495

>>30542446
>incest
Honestly, that ceases to matter in the age of genefixing.

>> No.30544629

>>30544476
That only works if a central intelligence controls all the bodies. Which isn't the case.

>> No.30544749

>>30544629
It could be, actually. But that's less Forking and more just multitasking with multiple remote-control synthmorphs.

I'm not the guy you're replying to, but thought I should mention that.

>> No.30544808

>>30544629
No. The left hand need not know where the right hand is for them to be part of the same whole. The same is true for my collective minds. They share consciousness, they share experience. And their new experiences can be shared with one another.

They are one, because the definition of "oneness" expands when forking happens.

>> No.30544871

>>30544808
Debatable. If they are not together for extended periods of time and don't share memories etc. then they become fully separate individuals.

They also don't share consciousness for long post-forking unless they literally stream that shit to each other.

>> No.30544940

>>30544871
>Debatable. If they are not together for extended periods of time and don't share memories etc. then they become fully separate individuals.
Just because the minds diverge does not make them different minds. It makes them minds dramatically shaped by different experiences. They are the same mind passed through different trials and scenarios, given different input.

Your copy of Super Mario Bros is not a different videogame from my copy, just because you've played it differently from me all these years.

>> No.30544972

>>30541499
>They are just automatons

ignoring all the identity fuckery, do people really think that clones/copies are some kind of mentally void p-zombie? even if they aren't "you" (which is debatable) they would still be as real as you are.

>> No.30545008

>>30544940
>Your copy of Super Mario Bros is not a different videogame from my copy, just because you've played it differently from me all these years.

Bad analogy. The alterations made by experiences last until removed. A cartridge has a base factory state it returns to.

>Just because the minds diverge does not make them different minds. It makes them minds dramatically shaped by different experiences. They are the same mind passed through different trials and scenarios, given different input.

Which results in them being different minds after a while, yes. If you take that stance, then a regular, IRL clone of someone raised in a completely different environment is the same mind, which is demonstrably false. Hell, you're close to saying everyone is the same mind, since different sleeves are unlikely to have the exact same neural layout.

>> No.30545071

>>30544940
> Your copy of Super Mario Bros is not a different videogame from my copy
That's a terrible analogy.
It'd be more like sending a copy of your savegame of whatever to someone, and checking on each other's progress once in a while. Whatever you do, they won't be the same save games for very long.

>> No.30545092

>>30545008
>Bad analogy. The alterations made by experiences last until removed. A cartridge has a base factory state it returns to.
After shutdown, which is akin to death. But so long as the games remain on (i.e. alive), they are still the same game regardless of how vastly different they are played.

>Which results in them being different minds after a while, yes.
No, it does not. Just the same mind put through different parameters.

>If you take that stance, then a regular, IRL clone of someone raised in a completely different environment is the same mind, which is demonstrably false.
Incorrect. No clones, twins, or anything of that sort have ever been cut from the same brain state. Even if birthed naturally, twin gametes separate long before neurons ever form for either.

>> No.30545095

>>30545071
This. You'd need to synchronize that shit. Also, games have drastically limited potential states compared to real life.

>> No.30545116

>>30545092
The same mind put through different parameters is not the same mind after a threshold. You're not the same person you were as a teen.

Also, a perfect infant clone is extremely similar: same mind state, same biological base.

>> No.30545191

>>30545116
>Also, a perfect infant clone is extremely similar: same mind state, same biological base.
This assume the mind state is not affected prior to birth. A supposition based in no way on fact or evidence.

>> No.30545236

>>30541499

If someone makes a perfect copy of you, do you share that copy's thoughts?

Do you "jump" into that copy's mind when you die?

>> No.30545245

>>30545191
Then sleeve the child's mind. Bam, same question.

You say experience does not turn the mind into a different one, but you ignore the dynamic part of the brain. After enough experience, the same input won't result in the same output. You can't call that the same, then.

>> No.30545248

>>30544437
When I refer to a copied document, it rarely has anything different to when I refer to an uncopied original document.

If anything the copied document is better because it's more secure.

>> No.30545285

>>30544476
Souls do not matter. It is your mind that is copied. Your different minds will eventually change, therefore, the clone is no longer you. You are only creating a new being with your memories. Even though you may act the same at first, you will eventually divide unless your minds are linked

>> No.30545303

>This thread
>"I'm a cobbler, of course I care about the sole."

>> No.30545316

>>30545245
>You say experience does not turn the mind into a different one, but you ignore the dynamic part of the brain. After enough experience, the same input won't result in the same output. You can't call that the same, then.
I'm not ignoring the dynamic part of the brain at all. I'm merely stating that it doesn't change anything. A sibling who has their DNA rewrote to a high enough degree that they cease to be biologically related to you is still a sibling. A fork that has been through a significant enough number of experiences to think differently from me is still me.

I don't buy the whole "I'm not the same me I was 10 years ago" bullshit. I am always me, and every other mind that shares that property is the same.

>> No.30545323

>>30545248
When you mark on the copy, does the original change?
When you mark on the original, does the copy change?

>> No.30545325

>>30545236

>> No.30545341

>>30545316
>A fork that has been through a significant enough number of experiences to think differently from me is still me.

So when the original dies, do you become the copy?

>> No.30545355

>>30545316
But 'me' is an ephemeral quality. The sole reason you have for assigning that 'me' to it is continuity, otherwise people who thought extremely similar to you would also get the qualifier of 'me'.

>> No.30545378

>>30541499
Just like you are when you wake up after sleeping

>> No.30545385

>>30545316
...actually. I just realized. You subscribe more to the idea of a 'soul', some invisible, undetectable something that defines someone as a specific person, than those arguing with you, who think of it on a solely mechanical level.

>> No.30545390

>>30545378

That's running under the assumption the brain completely shuts down, it doesn't.

>> No.30545458

>believing that mental phenomena is reductible to physical phenomena

I bet you people are the same people who think that the mind and the brain are the same thing.

>> No.30545504

>>30545458
Mental phenomena comes from the physical, though. The setting presumes that they have the technology to capture and recreate the exacts of the physical to work the mental.

Though you could argue that realistically you'd mainly gain a simulacrum instead of the real deal, each copy -> imprint -> copy process resulting in slight differences that eventually result in something drastically divorced from the original.

>> No.30545512

>>30545341
>So when the original dies, do you become the copy?
No, I always was the copy.

There is just one less me than there was before. A more profound form of losing a limb, if you wish an analogy.

>>30545385
>You subscribe more to the idea of a 'soul', some invisible, undetectable something that defines someone as a specific person, than those arguing with you, who think of it on a solely mechanical level.
I think the problem is that everyone is arguing a philosophical concept of soul that is not necessarily anything tangible or supernatural. It is a qualia of presence and existence. Everyone else's stops at their flesh, and they see that qualia of existence not being something that goes with a copy of their mind. I see that qualia of existence as something all my minds share, regardless of how many minds there might be.

>> No.30545522

>>30545458
>believing that mental phenomena is reductible to physical phenomena

what else would it be? magic?

>> No.30545548

>>30545512
>There is just one less me than there was before

And that you was you.

Where's the continuity? If I was hit by a car, do I... Start thinking as me at a computer, typing away as though the event never happened?

>> No.30545562

>>30545512
>I think the problem is that everyone is arguing a philosophical concept of soul that is not necessarily anything tangible or supernatural. It is a qualia of presence and existence. Everyone else's stops at their flesh, and they see that qualia of existence not being something that goes with a copy of their mind. I see that qualia of existence as something all my minds share, regardless of how many minds there might be.

See, we don't argue about a soul. We argue about minds. You used the word mind and then scoffed at soul.

Also, wrong use of qualia. Or, at least, I imagine, because in proper use it's closer to what we said: a subjective experience of being 'me', rather than an objective one.

>> No.30545582

>>30545512
> There is just one less me than there was before. A more profound form of losing a limb, if you wish an analogy.
And you're still talking of having several independent copies running around as if there was a central intelligence or hive mind linking them, but insist there isn't.

>> No.30545664

>>30545548
>Where's the continuity?
You don't cease to be you because you are put into a coma and no longer have continuity, do you?

>>30545562
>Also, wrong use of qualia. Or, at least, I imagine, because in proper use it's closer to what we said: a subjective experience of being 'me', rather than an objective one.
Ironic you consider that a wrong use, considering you've spent this entire thread telling me I'm wrong about my subjective experience of how I define "me", because you objectively view yourself as a concept tied to but one mind and body.

>>30545582
>And you're still talking of having several independent copies running around as if there was a central intelligence or hive mind linking them, but insist there isn't.
Again, no I'm not. Quit trying to insert your own opinions into my statements.

If you sever my hand, it is still my hand. It does not matter that my mind is no longer tied to it, it is still a part of me. There is no connection needed. No unity of mind for it to exist. I define "me" as all the bodies that exist with my mind-state, regardless of how drastically different our experiences might have shaped us.

>> No.30545681

>>30545504
It is impossible to prove that mental phenomena comes from the physical. I'd be perfectly happy saying that they are related,

>>30545522
Thought is something that is necessarily subjective in nature. You cannot empirically observe thought. You can observe the firing of neurons in the brain, but the firing of those neurons is absolutely nothing like a thought. You can even find with a great deal of certainty that the firing of a particular set of neurons correlates to the experience of a certain thought in the mind. But to say that the firing of those neurons *constitutes* that thought is not accurate because no matter how closely you examine those neurons with your senses you could never observe the mental phenomena that is said to be caused by them. How is it that neurons, physical objects in a material world, could causally influence immaterial things like thoughts? How can something immaterial and subjective by nature be created (or even interacted with) by something material and objective in nature. I'm doing a poor job of explaining this, but it is known as "the hard problem" in philosophy because it is really fucking hard to figure out.

People who believe that consciousness is reductible to physical phenomena typically deal with the hard problem by saying that the mind does not exist. Which is absurd,because perception, the basis of empirical observation, is mental. How can you use mental phenomena to disprove the existence of mental phenomena?

>> No.30545690

You are all missing the point:
It is literally an in-universe way for Retcon to occur.

>> No.30545721

>>30545690
Goddamn Meta Civilisations, weaponising Retcon? Seriously?

>> No.30545730

>>30545664
> If you sever my hand, it is still my hand.
If I copy your arm and cut its hand, it never was your arm, it never was your hand.
Your analogies are dumb all the time, stop using them please.

>> No.30545744

>>30545730
>If I copy your arm and cut its hand, it never was your arm, it never was your hand.
Correct. Because I am not that twin or clone. Moving the goalposts does not make your argument relevant in any way.

>> No.30545753

>>30545744
> Because I am not that twin or clone.
So then, how can you be a copy of your mind.

>> No.30545827

>>30545753
My body is hardware, my mind is software. I define myself as the software, not hardware. Every copy of my mind is me, not every copy of my body is the same (unless they share the same mind).

>> No.30545885

>>30543697
That's good to know. Thank you. Now, how to figure out which gear is best on the cheap?

>> No.30545896

Come on people, just ignore the fucker already and talk about Eclipse Phase. You won't convince him he's an idiot but if you ignore him he'll shut up after a while.

>> No.30545917

>>30545896
To start off and not just be a dick: ETI. Always wanted a campaign focused on them. Bad idea? Viable? Give me stories about them, I'm honestly curious and intrigued but likely will never get to see them due to my GM having a transhuman boner and wanting nothing but social studies in a post-whatever society.

>> No.30545921

>>30545885
Roll against Networking.

>> No.30545947

>>30545917
Read the super secret GM only infos, maybe?

To be honest, if I ran EP, they wouldn't appear either, I have no idea what they could or would do.

>> No.30545968

>>30545664

You can't compare discontinuity in coma or sleep with discontinuity of being reassembled in a completely different body.

>> No.30545979

>>30545917
In one of my campaigns, the Exsurgent virus is the most recent evolution of the ETI. They use their hosts as "hardware" to run their sentience.

So yes, I say it's completely viable and potentially a good idea, depending on how you handle it.

>> No.30546000

>>30545968
Discontinuity is as pointless a concept as continuity. You are you, regardless of whether you remember it, experience it or know it.

>> No.30546008

>>30545968
That discontinuity doesn't even really exist, since your self keeps on running.

>> No.30546079

>>30545979
Hmmm, neat. Does that culminate in alien cathedrals of tech and flesh housing eldritch minds? That is, is the virus just one phase of a lifecycle or is it the new state of the species?

>> No.30546126

>>30545917
I've had a few ideas floating around in my head regarding them. For a hypothetical Mass Effect crossover, for instance (and yes, I've read the /tg/ ME/EP threads; where do you think I got the inspiration?) I think that the suggestion in the book that the ETI was just one side in a war to be a fascinating one. The Reapers were made by an ETI for the explicit purpose of saving the organics from evil robots, after all - the Exsurgent seems like the perfect Evil Robot to have led to the creation of the Reaper Project.

For something more generically EP, I'm not really sure. I'd like to run some game where Transhumanity runs into the remnants of other (living) aliens, however - I've always found the Factors to be quite interesting, especially since they claim to be representative of a larger group of extraterrestrials.

No clue how to fit in the ETI, however. They're just too big and nebulous.

>> No.30546199

>>30546079
>That is, is the virus just one phase of a lifecycle or is it the new state of the species?
New state of the ETI. I wouldn't call it a "species", since the ETI in my setting consider their greater whole as more akin to an entire evolutionary chain. Each strain its own "species" and intelligence* unto itself.

*: not all strains are intelligent, so this is not always apt to describe them.

>> No.30546244

>>30546126
Too big and nebulous does seem fairly accurate, sadly. Not a fan of ME, so I can't really comment on the ideas, but Sovereign, as a design, is not too shabby.

>>30546199
That's pretty cool! It's an interesting take on making aliens weird without just tacking tentacles or ridged foreheads on.

>> No.30546273

>>30546244
Yeah, it came to me as an idea while I was in the midst of planning a campaign. It's been pretty fun, and the playgroup loves it. Funny enough, there are two other EP playgroups in my area, and they have both ripped off the concept for themselves.

>> No.30546322

If I cut your brain in half, and put each half in a separate clone body, and added an interface that sent the signals from one half of your brain to the other half of your brain, which half is you and which is not you?

>> No.30546621

>>30546322
I'd say neither, really? Since human consciousness is a pretty darn involved process during which a ton of signals, influences and levels etc. get integrated into what we call a whole. Rather holistic.

>> No.30546658

>>30546621
But two halves still make a whole, because data is still being transferred across to the other side.

>> No.30546673

>>30546658
Oh, sorry, misread that. Then...both? There really is no point of separation then, since they form a whole, if indirectly.

>> No.30546737

>>30546273
I actually had an idea a while ago, to make a cyberpunk-ish setting with something not quite unlike the Exsurgent in it, combine the old Psycho Squad style with the genre-stylings of the animu po-po special squad type thing, except with more western sensibilities.

>> No.30546749

>>30546673
Now, what happens if you turn each interface into an actual copy of the other half of your own brain, in a manner that it's set to duplicate your exact other half's brain working? So that it's still communicating between each half, but you've got a virtual copy of the other half of your brain as well as half of the original brain in each of your cloned bodies? You're still one person, right?

>> No.30546891

>>30546749
Nnnnmaybe? I mean, that wouldn't bloody work unless both bodies went through the exact situations and stimuli.

>> No.30546949

>>30546737
I did that too, but it ended up more like Ghost in the Shell than Cyberpunk.

>> No.30547270

>>30541617
Its more like questioning the morality of XYZ element of magic or the supernatural.

>> No.30547421

>>30543697
Test tube babies are at least human.

>> No.30547561

>>30547421
Right, I'm just pointing out that while the Jovians are very bioconservative by the standards of Transhumanity, they're rather radical by our own standards.

>> No.30547657

>>30547561
True true. I was just making an ambivalent comment.

I rather like the ARM from Total Annihilation. They are mentioned to use "clones," and we never really hear any reference to them having humanoid bodies, so they may very well just be the meaty filling of robotic exoskeletons. At the very least, their pain nerves can be turned on or off. What the fuck are they? Nobody knows. But they're perceived as the more "normal" guys in comparison to the CORE.

They are oddly portrayed as the "rebel alliance" equivalent to the "galactic empire" of the CORE, seemingly, even though both sides are just out to genocide the other with no fucks about civilians given.

>> No.30547732

>>30547561
They're not even as bioconservative as they're usually made out to be. Sure, a bug part of them are, but loads want to embrace transhumanity, safely. Their leadership's main argument is that it's too recent and not properly tested yet... Obviously, they want to keep on controlling their population more.
But anyone can still get a new morph and shit, Jovian space isn't wholly made up of neo luddites. They'll still get pissy when you do get a new morph though.

>> No.30547801

>>30547732
To be fair, they do kind of have a point with the whole "maybe we should be a bit more careful about all this tech?" spiel they have going.

>> No.30547817

>>30547732
>They're not even as bioconservative as they're usually made out to be.
Conservative is a relative term. Today's conservative would have been considered pretty liberal by ancient standards. The same is equally true for the Jovians.

>> No.30548745

>>30547817
Even in EP, there are bioconservative more uh conservative than the average Jovian, and not necessarily in Jovian space.

>> No.30548767

>>30539603
Yes, I haven't finished the book yet, but I'm still excited by the prospect of making my PC a Vending Machine.

>> No.30548811

>>30548745
>Even in EP, there are bioconservative more uh conservative than the average Jovian, and not necessarily in Jovian space.
Agreed, but not matter how conservative they are, they are likely more liberal than conservatives today. The truly conservative in the modern context likely died during the fall, if they were even alive to witness it.

>> No.30549084

>>30548811
Or they committed group seppuku when they found out that that viking penis reporter was a thing?

>> No.30549377

>>30549084
PENIS REPORTER OFFENDED YOU THINK IS VIKING!!! I NEVER PLUNDER... GOODS!!!!!

ASS IS ACCEPTABLE TARGET!!!!!

>> No.30549500

>>30549377
>Momo von Satan and the Cock
Gets me every time.

>> No.30549787

>>30541673

No it's not. It's quite thuroughly depicted that we've digitized the mind, and what "You" are is essentially data "ego" in a shell "morph".

Or did you forget "Your mind is software, program it?"

>> No.30549962

>>30545458

We've successfully been able to map which sections of the brain control what mental phenomena. Turns out your personality is towards the front of the brain. So yes, all mental phenomena is reductible to physical phenomena. It's just because the brain is such a complex organ in design we've only mapped phenomena to general areas.

>> No.30550051

>>30545681

Those firing of neurons is the same as data in a computer. The brain is the system that interprets it just like the CPU interprets data and displays it on a monitor. Looking at the electrons in a CPU can't tell you what the data means, only by looking t it after it's been interpreted by the system.

>> No.30550121

>>30545917

Never liked the ETI or the aliens. The "aliens" of Eclipse Phase should be once human, now changed because of Transhumanity.
ETI is basically the end result of the mass upload of the TITANS. Exsurgent Virus is an expansion of the ego that isn't well understood.

>> No.30550154

>>30546322

That's like cutting a computer in half and expecting it to work. It doesn't.

>> No.30550265

>>30550154
Or having a networked system of lesser computers acting as a larger system. It could never work.

OH WAIT

>> No.30550331

>>30550265

Those lesser computers are still whole systems, just weaker.

>> No.30550423

>>30550331
Each hemisphere of your brain can operate without the other.

>> No.30550449

>>30550423

No it can't it's an integrated system, which is how brain elasticity can compensate for a missing piece.

>> No.30550502

>>30550449
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain

Read up, son.

>> No.30550586

>>30550502

>wiki
>article never states total detachment

So, basically useless. Some systems are localized to different hemispheres, but some also use both hemispheres and as such some systems will operate but not as well as if they were connected.

>> No.30550630

>>30550586
Yes it does, you colossal moron. They mention complete callosotomies.

>> No.30551099

>>30544972

"They are the product of a mechanical process, or electrical impulses and chemical reactions. It is incontrovertible. Duplicates don’t have souls."

Obvious Bait here.

>> No.30551129

>>30539603
>Can we please talk about Eclipse Phase?
Sure!

What is it?

>> No.30551215

>>30551129
Uplifted animal. You are an abomination!

>> No.30551248

I don't know anything about EP. What's it like? I'm looking for another system to try when my 3.5 game ends.

>> No.30551261

>>30551215
Might be just a high-end smart animal.

Still an abomination?

>>30551248
>Far-future post-apocalyptic sci-fi involving lots of transhumanist elements, and post-singularity horror.

>> No.30551274

>>30551129
>>30551248
Apparently you can play as a Vending Machine in it and it makes you argue like a retard on /tg/.

I'm looking forward to playing a Vending Machine.

>> No.30551351

>>30551261
Huh. That sounds potentially interesitng.

>> No.30551358

>>30551274
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkgQFOOr7ug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at3OiAvUjH4

>> No.30551395

>>30551274
>Vending Machine

>> No.30551584

>>30551351
It's actually pretty interesting. Humanity delves deep into genetech, learns how to make transhumans, finds out how to divorce the mind from the body (making it possible to transfer your mind, copypasta it, back it up, whatever), learns how to make advanced computation technologies and puts itself at the height of a Golden Age.

Then they invent SkyNet. WHOOPSIE!!!

The Total Information Tactical Awareness Networks, or TITANs for short, were hyper-advanced, self-programming self-aware intelligences of beyond human capacity designed to protect us in the most comprehensive information control capacity possible. Each TITAN was made by a different country, to watch the world and each other. Something happened, they went apeshit, and they utterly destroyed us with technology that was potentially centuries ahead of anything we remotely had at the time (because they could self-improve).

Now 95% of the human race is dead, Earth has been abandoned, the nations of yore are long deceased, and transhumanity has picked up the pieces throughout the Solar System.

You play as members of Firewall, a secret conspiracy with cross-corporate and -governmental ties that seeks to prevent humanity's extinction at any cost. You hunt down the horrors that regular people have no clue hide in the dark crevices of our cold and heartless universe.

>> No.30551607

>>30551274
The closest I have is a Refrigerator Gundam.

>> No.30551639

>>30551395

>> No.30551803

>>30551639

>> No.30551860

>>30551803
I like that. I would love to have a refrigerator like that.

>> No.30551961

>> No.30552232

>>30551584
Very neat, thank you. I may look into this. Is the system complex?

>> No.30552426 [SPOILER] 

>>30551584
whatthehypercorpswantyoutobelieve.arg

>> No.30552636

>>30552232
Kind of, yeah. You'll probably want to pick up Transhuman as well, a relatively recent book, which has better chargen than the core one has.

>> No.30552765

>>30552232
>Is the system complex?
It's loosely based on Shadowrun, so yes. They are making an official FATE conversion book fairly soon, so you might want to wait for that to drop before jumping on board with the game. It will be much easier to play with that.

Of course, you can enjoy the setting now. The books are fucking fantastic.

>> No.30552969

>>30551584
u wot m8
The first few TITANs were made by the US to protect US interests and nothing else, and they multiplied after going bonkers.

>> No.30557189

>>30539603
>that feel when you will never be a gatecrasher

>> No.30560701

This is still up?

Awesome!

>> No.30560814

>>30545979

I prefer to use the Exsurgent virus as a weapon of the ETI - it's full of dense informational packets that allow the infected to start using advanced tech. I had that be how the TITANs started building Pandora Gates - because the exsurgent virus told them how to do it, as a way of getting the TITANs to 'come home' and be integrated into the homogenous core culture - bringing all the human minds the TITANS took with them. Most headhunter victims now belong to the ETI.

>> No.30561845

>>30560814
> TITANs coming home
Now I want the TITANs to come back home to transhumanity, say "sorry, we had a baaad flu" and try to integrate.

>> No.30565788

>>30551215
Who says that uplifts are abominations, Earth clan?

>> No.30566790

>>30565788
Biocons and many human inner-system-ers. Other groups can be against uplifts as well (it's implied that the Ultimates aren't too keen on them or AGI, but it might be up to group interpretation).

>> No.30566882

>>30565788

Even some UPLIFTS say that the sapience they received was an unnatural, unwelcome 'gift' and long to return to their halcyon days beforehand.

>> No.30567053

>>30545917
Make them frightening and truly alien

>> No.30567069

>>30566882

>"I'm a CHIMP, I'm supposed to worry about paying TAXES."

>>
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