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[ERROR] No.30411651 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Did Sauron really do wrong?

>> No.30411670


The Rings were just his version of the Bachelor. And everyone proved unworthy, so Sauron learned to just love himself and gleefully masturbate while watching others through his Eye.

>> No.30411679

Well, he signed on to rebel against an omnipotent and omniscient being.

>> No.30411693


Pretty brave guy then, I admire him for attempting such a feat. Truly a man.

>> No.30411697

Why did Melkor DDoS the Two Trees?

>> No.30411706


Everything he did, he did not for the good of the world and those who live in it, but because he simply wanted to enforce his will onto others. The original reason he joined Melkor/Morgoth was because he saw how easily he was able to impose his will unto the world and thought "Man, I want a piece of that."

>> No.30411718

Well, it was just as planned by said omnipotent and omniscient being.

Basically, Eru allowed all of these horrible things to happen because it'd make for a better song than a perfectly utopian world.

And the worst part is that Eru got away with it all.

>> No.30411722

A better question would be: could Sauron defeat Cthulhu in a one-on-one fight?

>> No.30411743

Sauron, plz

>> No.30411758

Sauron? No. At his worst and most powerful Sauron couldn't defeat a massive dog. He's a little too soft to take on Cthulhu.

>> No.30411765

Why does no one ever talk about the Orc genocide after the War of the Ring?

It's always about Morian war crimes, but there's no talk about Free Peoples' atrocities, their cruel reprisals against orcs, half-orcs, Haradrim and the Dunlendings.

>> No.30411766

So the moral of the complete works of Middle Earth are that bards are bastards and we shouldn't trust them.

>> No.30411787

They're just corrupted Elves. Who gives a shit?

>> No.30411803


Because as long as it's the "good guys" doing the killing then it's obviously justified as some moral or righteous act.

>> No.30411829

he did it for teh lulz

>> No.30411837

It is justified. They went to war against their fellow men, for what purpose? Glory in combat? Fuck them.

>> No.30411841

And you are just a corrupted ape with a scraggly coat, under-developed jaw and a swollen brain.

>> No.30411871

apes are corrupted humans, not the other way around you sinner!

>> No.30411876

If anything we're refined.

>> No.30411878


Because no-one gave a fuck about the Orcs. Middle-Earth doesn't have your social justice bullshit: The orcs were literally made out of evil, and even a human child knew that they existed to get a righteous smiting.

Middle-Earth isn't a setting where everything is shades of grey. There is Good and there is Evil, and people are keenly aware where they stand on the axis.

>> No.30411889

Lotr races were created by intelligent design so obviously not relevant.

>> No.30411891


Have you seen most humans? Ugly fuckers.

>> No.30411899

Shut the fuck up, knife-ear

>> No.30411936


>> No.30411946

I'd say lotr is less about black and white and more about everyone being a racist jerk to the other races. Only reason the alliance even happened is because they needed to deal with a god wanting to enslave everyone.

>> No.30411970

They're not being racist. You don't know what that word means. There are literally four different species (at a minimum) vying for resources.

Why exactly should they get along?

>> No.30411995


It's not racism if the other side literally worships Satan. Sauron had a titanic fortress and forged hell-weapons in the fires of MT. DOOM. He was clearly and unapologetically evil.

Hell, he never even tried to set himself up as good. When he tried to pass as good, he had to disguise who he really was: He knew he could only sell himself through lies.

>> No.30412000


Fetishes. Every human/dwarf/orc male wants to get with Elvish women.

>> No.30412015

>One of the problems with the perspective offered by the Man-Elf coalition is that you have to try so hard to get at the truth of the conflict, at what is really going on; it’s so obscured by their propaganda and relentless militarism. I mean, here we have swords being distributed to the Hobbits by Strider so they can protect themselves against these “evil creatures.” Now, in this case, it’s probably warranted, though the “evil creatures” are looking for the ring in their own individual self-interest. They’re behaving in a purely rational way.


>> No.30412036

If I were a man in Middle Earth I'd be going for an Entwife.

>> No.30412044


That chaffing though.

>> No.30412053

>Do I even need to say why this is bullshit?

>> No.30412059


I don't even know where he's getting it from. Strider gave them swords to protect themselves from literal evil spirits. I mean, the Nazgul were horrors from beyond the grave: Can't get more black and white than that.

>> No.30412076

Nah I imagine they've got nice damp soil patches covered with moss

>> No.30412093

Are you saying being undead is somehow inherently evil? The alliance used ghosts against Sauron too.

>> No.30412099

Ghosts Sauron created

>> No.30412125

Not really, the rulers of Gondor cursed them.

>> No.30412136

>Zinn: Now from here we jump to Isengard, post-ecological atrocities. What I personally see here is… well, I see industrialization, I see a very cooperative workforce, I see a people who aren’t terrorized, a people attempting to make do with what they have.

>> No.30412145

And the king of Gondor broke their curse.

>> No.30412146

They swore an oath to Gondor and to Sauron, they held to neither. Sauron is responsible for their ghostliness.

>> No.30412158

He forced his will upon others, which is the definition of wrong in Tolkien's Legendarium. So yes, Sauron did wrong.

>> No.30412170

Not really, they obeyed Sauron.

Irrelevant by your argument, two rights dont make a wrong.

>> No.30412174

Fucking Juden

>> No.30412197

How is it a wrong for them to ask them to swear an oath of mutual defense?

>> No.30412207

Actually in one of Tolkein's letters he said he kind of regretted that were were no chances for redemption for orcs.

Which makes sense. Tolkein was a devout catholic, he'd be into that sort of thing.

>> No.30412208

God I can't stand Chomsky.

>> No.30412230

He could've settled that by saying that when they die they show up in Mandos' hall like the Elves they originally were free of the corruption of Morgoth, but nooooooooooooooo

>> No.30412234

He signed on with Morgoth in the early days to rebel against the rule of Manwe. Of all the Valar, Manwe is most close to Ea, the lord of hosts and god of all gods, and held Ea's ear the most when in council, if I'm not hugely mistaken. Of all the valar however Morgoth was given the greatest portion of might, and is described as having many powers that would normally fall in the spheres of the various other Deities. It was not a direct rebellion against Ea, that had already been tried resulting in failure at the music of the Ainur, and Ea, also known as Iluvatar, could have simply looked at Morgoth or Sauron and said "You no longer exist." Poof. They're both erased from reality, wiped, never exists, never existed. But of course Ea didn't do that because he knew that great good would actually come from Morgoth and Sauron's actions, as we see in the resolution of the story at the total defeat of evil both in the war of wrath and at the destruction of the ring on mount doom. If ea had simply erased them, that would never have happened.

>> No.30412280

>Why don't people just let rabid dogs run wild in society?
Orcs can't be integrated into Free People society. They've been twisted by Morgoth into beings of complete evil. They're irredeemable by nature. You might as well ask the same question about Smaug or the balrogs.

That said, >>30412207 is right. Tolkien would later struggle with exactly how orcs worked and that he was hasty in making an entire class of mortal beings inherently evil.

I think that would have been too easy, to be honest. It also portrays orcs as a little too sympathetic (i.e. they weren't actually responsible for their actions, which is a very modern sentiment).

>> No.30412289

If Sauron wanted to be in charge why did he have to be such a dick about it? He had the Numenoreans eating out of the palm of his hand. He could've easily just held them.

>> No.30412297

I'm glad he didn't. LoTR would not have been nearly as good if there was an orc Drizzt running around with the fellowship.

>> No.30412321

They can't go back. Really they are just victims, you know, they didn't ask to get soulraped.

>> No.30412333

Ea has given the Valar, Maia, and all lesser beings the gift of being, and of free will. Only twice has he interfered to avert greater tragedy--by making the world round to isolate the Undying Lands, and returning Gandalf from the dead.

>> No.30412337

You don't ever actually see orc villages in lotr so I've always assumed the reason all the orcs portraied are jerks because they are all war parties and forced militia.

>> No.30412349

Don't forget making the earth crumble beneath Gollum's feet.

>> No.30412366

Apparently there weren't any, just holes in the ground where they bred

>> No.30412375

There are scattered statements throughout the source material which imply that orcs are actually simply very weak demons, and that they do not have souls in a true sense. If thats the case, then they would fall into the abyss of night at death, joining morgoth in the void. Another isolated statement implies that Morgoth will eventually break through the barriers surrounding middle earth and attack it one final time with all evil beings that have ever existed, only to be utterly totally defeated at the end of time, and actually killed rather than exiled.

>> No.30412381

That doesn't mean there'd be an orc Drizzt, it means after the war of the ring orc-kind would experience a socio-cultural upheaval over the course of years.

>> No.30412395

It's Eru Illuvatar, not Ea. Eä is the universe.

>> No.30412408

I like the idea of Sauron and the Orcs just getting reset to Mairon and the Elves better.

>> No.30412409

Oh. Silly me then. Its been a long time since I read the silmarilion. Close to a decade.

>> No.30412410

Because Sauron is defined primarily by his boundless ambition and secondarily by his willingness to reach his goals by any means necessary."Just" the Numenoreans wouldn't have been enough for him. Even when they were "eating out of the palm of his hand" they were just a means to a greater end as far as Sauron was concerned.

True, but they did evil. Evil gets punished. You can hem and haw about a criminal with a mental disorder, but they still go to jail. Same with orcs.

Their souls are twisted upon creation, so it's probable that they can't form a community capable of functioning in a capacity that we would compare to a village. They almost always have a fatalistic "might makes right" society of endless killing and slavery or are directed toward a larger purpose by someone with vision, like Sauron or Saruman.

There's very little to speak of on orc "society" though. They're beings created for violence.

>> No.30412433

That wouldn't be a satisfying ending, though. It would be a "happy" ending, but it wouldn't be satisfying.

Also Mairon was led astray by Morgoth in his natural state, so reverting him doesn't do much good. He had just the same capacity for ambition.

>> No.30412469

I don't think that would be satisfying either. I am however open to the idea of them getting reincarnated as non-evil forms with no knowledge of their past lives, past deeds, or previous identity.

>> No.30412482

But without Morgoth around he would just be #1 King Shit Blacksmith pouring his blood and sweat into magical rings for everybody, and giving of himself to make their lives better, and beloved for it.

>> No.30412517

So as someone who hasn't read the books, were the rings that Sauron gifted to the Elves/Men/Dwarves also imbued with powers, and if so what kind?

>> No.30412518

I think his ambition would have gotten the better of him in time, Morgoth or no.

>> No.30412540

Yeah but they're not specifically detailed. The dwarven rings let their wearers accumulate great wealth.

>> No.30412575

>>30412540 got it, but some of the other rings had some noted powers too. Gandalf inherited one of the elven rings and it had vague powers over fire.

>> No.30412593

I like how Sauron underestamated dwarf greed by thinking he'd be able to control them through the rings. Instead the dwarfs just took the rings and started hording even more gold and screaming at Sauron to FUCK OFF MINE.

>> No.30412594

The elven rings do have somewhat defined powers but they weren't made by Sauron.

>> No.30412598

I recall the Gandalf's ring of fire refers to Fea, not actual fire. It was said to heal weariness and give hope. Aka mana.

>> No.30412603

The rings of the elves were crafted by them, and it is said that "sauron's hand has never touched them", so while the rings the elves made were not evil, the rings of humans and dwarves were, and had many nonspecific magical powers. My theory is that the rings sauron gifted to humans allowed them access to Black Numenorian, a magical evil language with many powers. To put it in /tg/ talk, they gained several levels of Sorcerer when they equipped the ring.

The dwarven rings powers aren't really specified either, but they had something to do with the vastness of the dwarves wealth.

The rings Sauron actually made himself for the various parties who received them were imbued with some of his magic, but only the master ring was actually imbued with sauron's might, will, and evil.

>> No.30412619

Really the whole thing became a huge clusterfuck. Most of the dwarven rings were destroyed by dragonfire - which sounds more like a sentence you'd read in a gay fantasy e-novel.

>> No.30412641


Alright, thanks for informing me.

>> No.30412660

The confusion stems from the word "Fea", which is an elvish root word that means "spirit, soul, fire (as in vigor)", but is also used in a word that means fire (as in conventional flames fire).

>> No.30412682

The ring's description refers to it giving vigor.

>> No.30412686

Well he's basically a representation of controlling fascism and destructive industry. He admired order and efficiency and that's the root of why he joined Morgoth and tried to conquer Middle Earth.

If he was more ethical in his practices there wouldn't have been anything wrong with him. Certainly I have difficulty with the evils of controlling fascism in a world where the most common form of government is royalty.

>> No.30412720


>> No.30412783

In regard to sauron's actual mechanism of control over those who bear the ring, imagine this.

Imagine two huge bricks being squeezed against your head as hard as they possibly can without actually killing you, I mean we're talking so hard blood is coming out of your nose. Any effort to move or do anything at all is met with intense trembling and difficulty.

Meanwhile, a single cyclical voice repeats words in a magical language you don't speak, while thousands of voices speaking in languages you do speak issue you the same command repeatedly in a high loud whisper in both your ears.

You feel as though your head is going to actually explode at any moment, and cold sweat beads on your forehead as the intense pain gets even more powerful, your body shaking and flailing as the voices get louder and louder and louder and LOUDER, drowning out everything, even your own breath and heartbeat, closing your tear filled eyes in blind agony, only to find yourself looking at Sauron when you open them, the gargantuan spirit, taller than a castle tower and bigger around than a city, crushing you mercilessly with a finger as he issues commands, demanding absolute, unconditional obedience.

In a fluke stroke of luck you roll a successful DC 20 willpower check, wrench your hand up screaming in agony as blood pours out both your nostrils, then wrench your other hand up, grab the ring, fingers forced by the evil power to grip it so tight that two of your fingers actually break, and hurl the ring into a nearby lake, instantly all pressure evaporating. Your are unconscious for 6 days afterward.

If I were to use him attempting to control a player in a storyline, that is how I would describe it. He wields that sort of power over a ringbearer who dares to wear the ring.

>> No.30412786

Oh fuck off. Tolkien might have said that but it is so blatantly fucking untrue. What the fuck do you think the Shire is, if it's not an idealisation of England?

Tolkien literally refers to Sauron as loving order and efficiency. The orcs are portrayed as industrialised, and the protagonists comfortable country life is threatened. Tolkien may have avowed off allegory but it all over his work, as it is all over the work of any author because an author's work is defined by their experiences.

>> No.30412937

What are the eagles metaphors for?

>> No.30412964

I didn't say everything in the book was a metaphor, I said it's silly to imagine the book has no allegories at all.

>> No.30413049

Indeed. Theres no question that some allegories, parallels and metaphors exist.

Some examples follow
>The word "shire" is an middle english and later word that means something similar to "county"
>Tolkien served in ww1, the landscape of evil areas as blasted hellish and dead is clearly a symbol of what he saw in ww1
>Eru Illuvatar is clearly a stand-in for God the father, and the Valar are clearly indirect fantisifications of several high level angels
>"ring of power" is a trope from the Nibelungen
>the ring transforming your body and mind is also a trope from old myth, see Fafnir the firedrake.

>> No.30413101

America saving all y'all Europeans' behinds at the end of double-you double-you one, obviously.

>> No.30413126

>my face if that were actually true
>my face when we'll never know either way
>my face when yuros will never be able to refute it

>> No.30413128

So industrialisation is allegory for...industrialisation? You can find "allegories" of everything in every book if you define allogories that easily and loosely, there's bound to be a similar counterpart to everything in the world.

>> No.30413193

Manwe, also called Manwe Sulimo (root Sul, "wind, air current, breath") was a "great friend to eagles and to all birds of the air", and it is stated at one point that Thorondor lord of all eagles made his aeries in mountains surrounding the area morgoth lived in, and watched his actions for Manwe.

These two statements together imply to my mind that the great eagles of Thorondor's line were some sort of greater or lesser spirit of Manwe's hosts and were simply in the form of birds in middle-earth.

I can't comment on whether they are meant to represent Americans or not, though the connection between Eagles and 'merica is clear.

>> No.30413196

>Gwaihir's M60 raked through the ranks of fearful, turbaned Haradrim - a terrible death from the air which they had no capacity to resist. As the ranks of brown-skinned men broke and they began to flee the Windlord's cries rang like a trumpet over the battlefield. "Freedom," he was calling in the tongue of the great eagles, "Freedom! Liberty! The Right to Bear Arms!"

>> No.30413202

Can we all just agree that being an orc sucks total dicks?

>> No.30413252


>> No.30413343

Middle Earth has tons of shades of grey.

There's an evil guy.

A lot of people oppose him.

A lot of people who oppose him are also evil.

A lot of people who serve him are not evil.

Tolkien himself pointed this out, as if it needs to be more obvious.

Orcs are simply a race of victims, and the Professor specifically said they were redeemable.

>> No.30413467

There's a fine line between bravery and stupidity. Sauron crossed it and set up camp on the other side.

>> No.30413480

I'm under the impression that in cases where a deceased author has issued conflicting statements, the general practice is to go with the earlier statement.

That being said, he did say they were redeemable, but I personally don't see how, as the first orcs were the dead and dying bodies of tortured, mutilated elves recalled to activity by morgoth's evil power in a second life as hellish demon like creatures. There is no question such a feet is within Morgoth's purview of ability.

To me its unclear if they truly have souls or not, and in christian theology, having a soul to redeem in the first place is necessary for any sort of redemption in a theological sense.

>> No.30413499

>beings of complete evil
These do not exist in Tolkien's setting. Even Melkor was not completely evil.

>> No.30413527

>feet = feat

fucking autocorrect or stupid fingers.

>> No.30413680

>in cases where a deceased author has issued conflicting statements,

I don't know whether to agree or disagree, since he never stated orcs were irredeemable. So its a moot point for purposes of this conversation.

>There is no question such a feet is within Morgoth's purview of ability.

Your interpretation is very metal, awesome, 10/10 would use, and wildly different from ME canon as its presented anywhere.

ME orcs aren't undead or demonic. They are tortured and deformed -- most likely inbred (the first orcs looked like elves, so I'm guessing the reason each generation was more horrifying was massive inbreeding + exposure to industrial contaminants, but Tolkien also said genetics don't necessarily apply to ME, so, who knows), but nothing seems to imply they aren't metaphysically elves. They are certainly not maiar (evil maiar = demons), and they are certainly not undead.

>> No.30413722

I need to briefly check something in my copy of the Silmarilion before I can reply.

>> No.30413824

"But of those unhappy ones [elves] who were ensnared by Melkor, little is known of certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pit of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the councils of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the quendi (elves) who came into the hands of Melkor, before Utumno was destroyed, were there put in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous and ruined race of Orcs, in envy and bitter mockery of the elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest of enemies. For the orcs had life and multipled after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar, and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could melkor make of his own efforts since the rebellion in the Ainulindale before the start of time: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the orcs loathed the master whom they served out of fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Morgoth, and the most hateful to Iluvatar."

Source: Silmarilion, P. 50, center page paragraph word for word.

>> No.30413840

While that's true that Melkor/Morgoth was not completely evil per se, I don't think it's impossible to say that the beings he and Sauron created were absolutely evil.

>> No.30413854

Yup! That's about like I remember.

>> No.30413907


It's like a piss/diarrhea milkshake .

>> No.30413909


You can argue one way or another, but there's certainly no evidence other than Tolkien explicitly stating that irredeemable beings doesn't make sense and is anti-Catholic.

However, we do know that there's no evidence to support them being absolutely evil. Nobody ever tried reasoning with an orc or dragon. Kill on sight was the standard operating policy.

>> No.30413948

*don't make sense

>> No.30413951


It really does. They're just shells of hate and anger, desperately trying to fill their emptiness with the suffering of others. They work for Sauron and Morgoth, but they hate them too, all the same. Especially Morgoth, because they know they owe all their misery to him.

>> No.30413964


*and are

fuck I can't into grammar today I am retarded

>> No.30414016

>However, we do know that there's no evidence to support them being absolutely evil.

Tolkien said they're evil. The books showed that they're evil. They're evil.

>> No.30414019

I had pictured it as being more like Morgoth and a group of Balrogs herd them into torture pits and then torture them for days, burning magic letters into them with brands and whipping them ceaselessly, the walls of the pits burning hot and the pits floor covered with sharp gravel. Morgoth paces through the area repeatedly listening to various voices, and those that scream at him with the most hate he takes into another area, flesh-carving razor sharp blades used to cut even more magical letters into them, then Morgoth withdrawing a burning sword from a flame sourced by burning corpses, the burning sword and the fire it was in dark blue or green, then stabbing the blade through the heart of the tortured victim, killing them. The bodies (with swords still in them) are then hung out to dry from cliffs. Lightning strikes the sword, which melts into the body with intense agony as it returns to life slowly as a hate filled, demonic orc, which is then recalled to the torture pits and thrown into the pits with women with a simple instruction. Rape them until you can't get it up anymore.

Admittedly my idea of how it was done is somewhat different than the book's view. But I've seen a lot of SVART METAL IST KRIEG type music videos.

>> No.30414039

I think you're trying to inject too much modernity into it. The books spring from the mind of a British war veteran in the early to middle 20th century, whose primary inspirations were Catholicism and ancient Anglo-Saxon myths.

And while Tolkien later regretted adding irredeemable beings into Middle-Earth, that doesn't mean he didn't add them. I agree with you overall, but I think that from the perspective of the Free People, things like balrogs or orcs are absolutely evil because they exist as weapons to destroy.

Furthermore, your point that "nobody ever tried reasoning with an orc" is just modernist sentiments about good and evil. I'm sorry to say it, but there are people in the world who will simply kill you. We've become divorced from that reality in modern society, but it's true.

>> No.30414043

It's a joke article, and a pretty funny one.

>> No.30414088

>They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)

>With regard to The Lord of the Rings, I cannot claim to be a sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of orcs is heretical or not. I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted somewhere, Book Five, page 190, where Frodo asserts that the orcs are not evil in origin.

>> No.30414090

"Absolutely evil" implies they can't be redeemed (nobody has ever tried), which we know is false, and it implies that it isn't, say, Morgoth's influence rather than intrinsic (which isn't really supported).

Every time we have all the facts on an evil being in Middle Earth, we discover that they are evil for quite sensible, human-like reasons. The exception is, of course, creatures from the Void like the Watcher and Ungoliant, but they're just fulfilling their nature.

>> No.30414099

>Furthermore, your point that "nobody ever tried reasoning with an orc" is just modernist sentiments about good and evil. I'm sorry to say it, but there are people in the world who will simply kill you. We've become divorced from that reality in modern society, but it's true.


Trying to view pre-1960s works through a Tumblr lens will only make you look like an critical theorist idiot.

>> No.30414115

The watcher I think was a created being of Morgoths. Several nonspecific "horrors" are mentioned as being both dwellers in Utumno and also in Thangorodrim and Angband.

>> No.30414134

>I'm sorry to say it, but there are people in the world who will simply kill you. We've become divorced from that reality in modern society, but it's true.

Divorced? Maybe you have. I carry a gun.

>> No.30414159

>Divorced? Maybe you have. I carry a gun.

I had a feeling you were a bigoted Rethuglican, but thanks for confirming it, shitlord.

>> No.30414164

I own guns as well, but you can't deny that modern people, in their day to day lives and in their philosophy, have become absolutely divorced from violence. People don't accept the idea that there are people that will kill them anymore.

>> No.30414247

If an orc kicked in your door today right here right now, roared a battle roar and started slaughtering everything, and it would slaughter everything, family and pets, you wouldn't have a weapon to protect yourself with. While you spout words it doesn't understand or care about to it about critical theory and race relations, its raping your mothers corpse after cutting her head off. Seconds later you get stabbed in the heart. You died.

The reason no one tries to reason with an orc is because they are given to very intense violence, aggression, and hate. They hate everything. And everyone. Even themselves. They feel so much hate that it clouds their every waking moment's every thought and feeling. Imagine spending every waking second of your time thinking violent, hate filled thoughts of aggression and selfish violence while you live an existence as a miserable, terrified slave of powers so far beyond you you have no comprehension of their true meanings or purposes, and are kept deliberately ignorant so you don't get to big for your britches.

Thats life as an orc. Every nanosecond of your waking existence is butt-blisteringly hard work with doses of pain, torture, and hatred. At the end of each day you count your new scars and fall into a bale of hay and rags, falling into an exhausted, deep, dreamless sleep, your last thoughts of the day wondering when death will take you away from all this pain, misery, and darkness.

>> No.30414265

Pic related?
I'm personally of the belief that it'd be awesome if we could all do something that doesn't get anyone killed, but you should still be prepared to defend yourself. Especially if your opposite has a history of violence.

>> No.30414273

>Imagine spending every waking second of your time thinking violent, hate filled thoughts of aggression and selfish violence.

Don't have to imagine. I used to post on /v/.

>> No.30414284

Trying to use "but he's Catholic" as an argument why his chars could be irredeemable doesn't make sense, not to mention that automatic, inherent evil is a total oxymoron as well. Something can by definition only be evil if its capable of moral choice, this is definitely consistent with Catholicism.

Indeed, one of the most powerful themes in Middle Earth is that the balrogs were once angel-like spirits, the nazgul were once great kings of men, the orcs were once elves, and the most monstrously evil being the universe had ever known ultimately just wanted to be original.

>modernist sentiments about good and evil

Its not modernist, its right there in the damn story: Sauron considered repentance until his captor gloated to him about the punishment he would receive, and that orcs absolutely hate their masters worse than anyone else. Middle Earth is a hell of a lot more of what you call "modernist" than most fantasy RPGs I can think of (with intrinsic, decentralized auto-evilness).

>there are people in the world who will simply kill you

I am rather stumped at this. What's your point? Humans are generally evil because they choose to be and because they give up responsibility for their actions. Orcs are explicitly evil because they're tortured and enslaved.

>> No.30414311

If you took that post seriously, I have a bridge to sell you.

Anyway, the argument was never over whether orcs are violent and angry creatures, it's over whether they are, theoretically, capable of being good. And Tolkien says they are.

>> No.30414320

The Watcher is a tentacly thing of unspecified origin, and Gandalf describes horrifying, Lovecraftian beings in the depths of the Earth that are extraneous to Creation.

>> No.30414330

Sauron was a simple man, he desired the world, and sure he did some bad stuff to try and get the world, but can you truly, honestly slight him for having the courage, the will and the determination to fulfill his dreams? Are you so broken /tg/ that you can fault a man for his dreams!?

>> No.30414363

To my mind it is implied that the watcher is a horror from Utumno or Angband's underground components. You're referencing Gandalf's dialog in the mines of moria, correct?

>> No.30414381


>critical theory and race relations

Holy shit, all that projection.

Lets calm down, forget about tumblrites and SJWs for a moment, and consider the enigmatic line that they multiply in the fashion of humans.

>> No.30414414

The line is not enigmatic to me, to me it is a veiled reference that they are of two distinct male and female genders, and that they mate sexually to reproduce.

>> No.30414431

Dreams are only meant to be broken, Anon. Such is how we come to the understanding that all they had given us is false hope. Join us and be one, free of the empty promises and chaos of life.

>> No.30414441


>To my mind it is implied that the watcher is a horror from Utumno or Angband's underground components.

Well okay. Its technically possible that the tentacle monster encountered in the same general area of the Morian Nameless Things has nothing to do with the Nameless Things, but we know that the original giant spider, Ungoliant, like Nameless Things, are creatures that don't originate from Melkor's great works.

Its possible that Nameless Things have nothing to do with the Watcher, but it'd be kind of random.

>> No.30414464

Not for a moment.

>> No.30414480

These are the people who fought so adamantly to stop Sauron's dreams. Men who have long since given up on their own! How is Sauron the villain when men like this exist!?

>> No.30414487

Ahh, but I never said he created irredeemable characters because he was Catholic. I said Catholicism was an influence on his works, which is not up for debate. I said that he created irredeemable characters and later regretted it.

I disagree with your premise that something can only be evil if it could also be good. An orc is an intelligent creature, but that intelligence is bent toward evil by its nature as an orc.

The orcs and balrogs are beings of corrupt and evil nature. They do evil things. If you want to walk into an orc camp and tell them that you understand the centuries of oppression they've been forced to endure and offer them peace, that's your prerogative. But I hardly think the refusal of the Free People to do the same disqualifies the orcs as evil.

I really don't see how you can insist that things like orcs and balrogs, whose existences are now devoted entirely to destruction are not evil.

>> No.30414502

I am not disagreeing with what you say. I will however point out that Utumno and the other various mostly or totally underground bases Morgoth used were very, very large areas, and it is theoretically possible that either via underground water-source or via connecting caves, the watcher went to moria from the surviving underground ruins of one of those bases. In the Silmarilion, it is said that when the gods went head up against morgoth and beat him, they didn't search the lower reaches of the underground base they found him in, and that several beings escaped from that area.

Thats the only reason I personally theorize that the watcher is a creation of morgoth. However I also like the idea that its part of the "nameless things" eldritch beings group.

>> No.30414504

>to me it is a veiled reference that they are of two distinct male and female genders, and that they mate sexually to reproduce.

The enigmatic element is that it states, you know, orc women and orc babies exist.

>> No.30414519

Pretty sure Tolkien didn't consider even orcs to be completely evil. Not that they weren't evil, but they would still have at least the potential for good.

>> No.30414520

I'd like to see this smug Morgoth fighting Fingolfin.

>> No.30414537

Of course they do. You just don't see them unless you're an orc because they're kept in pits and fucked constantly, so they're constantly shitting out kids. Every moment of their existence revolves around reproduction and they are slaves to whichever male orc wants to pound their pussy.

Thats my personal theory anyway.

>> No.30414544

I forget, are Catholics cool with killing babies?
Like, this isn't meant as facetious. I'm honestly not sure if that was something that was considered kosher around, say, the crusades or if they still went with the whole "killing noncombatants is not okay" thing?

>> No.30414557

Morgoth couldn't create. He could only twist the nature of things that already existed.

>> No.30414558

The way I read it is that he made orcs and things evil, but later regretted making them that way and wished he had done it differently. He didn't retcon it, just realized he'd made a mistake.

>> No.30414593

They have the potential sure, but in the final analysis, even if they weren't actively evil are they tolerable? I submit that they are not and best eliminated lest the tendency Morgoth left in them be allowed to persist on the land.

>> No.30414611

>I said that he created irredeemable characters and later regretted it.

We have the quote in which he states they were not irredeemable ITT. I don't know what you're going on in about.

We explicitly know orcs are redeemable. We also explicitly know orcs serve out of extreme fear.

I don't know why you bring up balrogs when they are an order of maiar who willingly became monsters of fire and darkness, they, like orcs, are the antithesis of fantastic concepts of "evil nature." It is entirely their choice to be evil.

>but that intelligence is bent toward evil by its nature as an orc.

An orc's nature is elven. The orc is the ultimate fantasy example of nurture (torture) triumphing over nature, and its quite clear the orcs serve because they are tortured and terrorized into obedience.

>you understand the centuries of oppression

Kindly leave the Civil Rights strawmen out of the equation.

The question is wor

>> No.30414656

Dunno. It is, however, another example (potentially) of the Free Peoples not always being nice. The Rohirrim hunt certain other human beings for sport, for example; I wouldn't find genocide impossible. I think the implication is that the orcs politely committed mass suicide when the ring was broken.

What I find fascinating, though, is that both Gygax and Tolkien called orcs 100% redeemable but Gygax explicitly and Tolkien implicitly was okay with genocide as a solution. This is in contrast to the modern fantasy genre in which there's a lot of Always Evil ideas floating around but genociding them isn't kosher. You'd think it'd be one or the other.

>> No.30414666

My theory is that the word "create" here is being used to mean in the sense of "And the gods said it existed, and it came to be." Things simply poofing into existence in a cloud of magic. Morgoth clearly could create in the more mundane sense of taking existing matter and making things.

>> No.30414676

>you will never be a qtπ wolf shapeshifter at the feet of a great master

>> No.30414727

>The question is worth asking about yonder babies, possibly orc mothers and children as well.

>> No.30414733

Orcs come to your nation. They are killing everyone they encounter and taking every resource they can find. When they fill their vehicles with everything they can carry, they put everything they can't carry to the torch. Those that become their slaves are forced to learn their ways, marked with a brand, and forced to always speak their hellish, corrupt polyglot language.

How do you feel? How do you respond to their behavior?

>> No.30414738

He can break your legos and put them back together without following the directions.

>> No.30414783

And further, even if Orcs are redeemable, this isn't something the races of men need concern themselves with, it's a function of the structure Eru put into the world, none of which says "Get along with Elves no matter how fucked up they are".

>> No.30414839

>How do you respond to their behavior?
By doing what you're fucking told and praying to whatever go you believe in that the Orcs don't murderrape your family, duh.
So, pretty much the same way I would deal with most pre-Roman civilizations.

>> No.30414879

You think either of them ever hammered the other's anvil?

>> No.30414902

What does this have to do with anything? In a defensive war situation, you are probably not going to bother reasoning with intruders.

When you get to the stage of forcing the women and children to dig their own mass graves, on the other hand, you may out of curiousity deign to converse with one.

Far be it from me to suggest genocide isn't a good answer, and I don't think I ever said there's anything immoral about genocide.

It is however at least a topic of mild interest, what do with the prisoners.

>> No.30414928

It's not genocide because Orcs aren't a race. They're just Elves who had something bad happen to them and therefore they don't even really die.

>> No.30414946

That is true for orcs that are under the dominion of a dark lord. Even then, they're able to make decisions and have rebellious thoughts towards their dark lord. They are governed by fear by a hierarchy of captains that can and will enforce their superior might in order to keep you under control. Even the orginal first elves that had seen the light of Aman were bound to Morgoth just by being in his vicinity and were let loose as spies.
Now imagine you're an orc and currently not bound to a dark lord, do you think you and your buddies could settle a community without being instantly curbstomped by some elvish lord wanting to impress some damsel? I'd argue that while they are hostile, it is also PARTIALLY because they are being considered completely evil, for reasons.
It isn't solely because "They're an evil race, every individual is unarguably evil", they're a tortured race being led by extreme opression and being used to do hideous acts.

>> No.30414957

>Imagine spending every waking second of your time thinking violent, hate filled thoughts of aggression and selfish violence while you live an existence as a miserable, terrified slave of powers so far beyond you you have no comprehension of their true meanings or purposes, and are kept deliberately ignorant so you don't get to big for your britches.

>Imagine living in the Russian Federation

>> No.30414993

>Sauron considered repentance until his captor gloated to him about the punishment he would receive

>Based Eönwë

Nice try, knave of Morgoth. Stay your cur tongue, or you shall find it polishing my sword once "Tar-Mairon" has his turn.

>> No.30414998

Depends. All the good guys appear to be good Catholics, but anyone's guess what Sauron was up to.

Personally I envision Sauron and Melkor as heterosexual (Melkor being so heterosexual he almost impaled Aragorn's grandma on a dick that is probably ten feet tall and dripping with) with Sauron mainly fucking Thurinwethil, but on the other hand Sauron is a polymorphous man of mystery whose behavioral traits towards Melkor are the picture perfect definition of the ideal fantasy waifu so I can't say it doesn't fit.

>> No.30414999

My point is that in general they are hostile towards non-orc groups, so the chance of having any dialog contact with them to redeem them from their evil ways is pretty low. About the only way I see them succeeding in being redeemed is if they launched a successful rebellion against Sauron or Morgoth, and Sauron is thousands if not millions of times more powerful than an orc, Morgoth thousands of millions of times as powerful as Sauron is.

My point was only to say that their behavior is extremely terrible, and redeeming them short of divine agency plot-manipulating to help you do so would be very hard.

>> No.30415027

Morgoth confirmed for touching fluffy tail

>> No.30415030

Each have tested how the other's hammer felt in his hand, at the very least, purely out of curiosity.

>> No.30415046

Yeeaaah it is still genocide. I don't think you know what the definition of genocide is.

Sauron looks so fucking depressed to be subjugated by her in that picture. Then again, maybe its because his best bro in the universe just died.

>> No.30415078

If you see Orcs on your borders and don't wipe them the fuck off the map you are literally too stupid to live.

>> No.30415079

Well, Sauron and Morgoth died, so that's something.

>> No.30415084

Eonwe's a guy.

>> No.30415102

I know.

>> No.30415114

Sauron died. Morgoth was simply exiled to a void region of imprisonment. But his "shadow" (i.e. influence, possibly some form of direct mental connection as well) was still over everything he had controlled or touched.

>> No.30415118

Remember, it's not gay if you were just curious

>> No.30415139

Orcs do not have a culture. They have no discrete set of characteristics except that they are very screwed-up Elves, and Elves don't die, they just get relocated. They are by definition immortal.

>> No.30415192

Well I mean, both have essences that are existent post-mortem in a horrifyingly depressing twilight state.

>> No.30415245

Thats fair. Imagine for a moment following your dreams, only to see every hope dashed and every effort destroyed, and then and only then finding out that you are to exist for the remainder of the appointed ages of earth as an invisible, bodiless form unable to have sense impressions or do anything but remember, and as time passes, you forget more and more of what you knew until at the end of time, you suddenly burst out of your prison to destroy the people that put you there, only to die at the end by being stabbed through the heart and decapitated one after the other.

>sad corpsepaint man playing a violin.gif

>> No.30415249

Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."

You can argue they're not an ethnic group (they have their own languages and shit, so they probably are), or a racial group (debatable, but there's more difference between orcs and elves than there is between different caucasian races, for example) but they certainly qualify as a national group.

And yeah if you want to play the afterlife shell game I guess no one really ever dies in a universe where afterlives exist, they just get deported.

>> No.30415258

>How do you feel? How do you respond to their behavior?

Probably some kind of Numenor Strong rampage of killing.

>> No.30415360

When you arrive at a village they destroyed you find ripped apart bodies that were savaged, trees full of babies that were ripped from their mothers bodies and hung by the umbilical cord, buildings still burning, bodies of both sexes covered in extremely vile semen, livestock thats had its organs torn out by hand and devoured. Everyone was killed. Elders, children, men, women, even the dogs and cats and pet piggies. It is truly shocking and demoralizing to you how violent, hate filled, and rapacious they are. Every street in the town is strew with rotting human bodies that animals have gnawed and devoured, both animals and people are impaled on big wooden spikes. When you open the door to a ruin you discover 18 mothers and toddlers who hid in the building, their burned alive corpses blackened and revolting. Even worse, some of the burned bodies were ripped out of the building and then raped. Just for fun. This was done to both the mothers and their toddlers.

That is the evil of the orc. That is the extreme hate and violence which colors their behavior. This is what you can expect if you encounter them.

Its so bad that after walking around throwing up everyone the men can't take it anymore and they burn the whole city to the ground, destroying all the bodies and removing all trace that it ever existed, rather than reveal its ignominious and terrible end.

>> No.30415382


Yeah I don't know who this artist is and some of it verges on yaoi but I eat it up with a spoon anyway, because this sort of thing was definitely what went through my mind reading the Silm (maybe with less stupid sexy Sauron).

>> No.30415384


>> No.30415398


>> No.30415407

Don't recall that kinda stuff in the books.

>> No.30415421

See, I'd imagine Melkor's problem is that his DOMINATION LUST leads him to all sorts of experimental sexual assaults.

Consider that his contemplated Rape of Luthien was so whacked out that it was literally the darkest design he had since the Two Trees. Keep in mind he had bred orcs and dragons, massacred, murdered, betrayed, and abused countless innocent Elves, Dwarves, and Men at that point.

Morgoth's Rape is so Intense, it's worse than genocide.

>> No.30415432

Of course not. In the books however it is directly implied that their behavior was extremely terrible and very evil. It is definitely something I picture them doing.

>> No.30415468

I can see Morgoth giving his slaves a direct command to "rape and abuse the prisoners in whatever way you think best, but leave them alive for questioning if possible." This would probably be a general order extended to all forms of his slaves. So balrogs and dragons and etc as well.

>> No.30415526

So yeah, Numenor Strong rampage of killing seems pretty appropriate.

Aurë entuluva, son!

>> No.30415555

>Mairon and Curumo sat back together on the bench in the back of the workshop and stretched out their sore limbs, tired from a long, hot day working the forge. Mairon twirled his in his hand, the soft leather grip worn from ages of use. Curumo noticed that, though their tools had both been gifts from Aule, Mairon's seemed imperceptibly larger.

>Curumo held his own hammer in front of him to test the size by comparison. His own grip was quite more well-intact and free of abrasions or scuffs. Mairon looked over at it as he held it aloft. "Your grip seems fresher than mine, Curumo," he said, "might I take your hammer for a moment and feel for myself?"

>Curumo was startled by the question. Though they'd long worked together, Mairon had never cast notice upon his work, which Curumo felt sorely inferior to his master. "Of course, master Mairon," Curumo replied, and handed over his hammer. Mairon tested it in his hand. The springiness of the new leather comforted him as if he'd been taken back to his first day in the forge. "Ahh, a fine hammer you have, young one." He offered Curumo his own in kindness. "See how it'll feel once you've got a few years into it."

>Curumo took his master's hammer in his hand. The withered grip felt at once disheartening yet comfortable, and Curumo could hardly imagine he would wish to work with such a beleaguered piece of equipment. "Does it not tire you excessively to have to grip so tightly, Master?" Curumo asked. Mairon, still remarking in his own mind on the comfort of his apprentices' tool, replied in the negative. "Once he's gotten used to it, changing a smith's hammer will feel as wrong as if his wife changed her face."

>Curumo blinked at the wisdom he'd received and thought to himself how lucky he was to have so sage an instructor as he'd been give by Aule. "Still", Mairon said "I would like to see how yours feels in action, if only to remember my younger days." Sauron swung downward in the air.

>> No.30415598


>> No.30415613

>some of it verges on yaoi

>> No.30415650

>that battle
Damn Fingolfin, did no one tell you why you shouldn't fatroll?

>> No.30415661

>raping people

That's pretty fucked up. I always assumed they just roamed the pre-Noldor exile forests, collecting Avari elves in big sacks and taking them home to the Boss. You think they might've used some of them sexually too?

>> No.30415688

Well, wouldn't you?

>> No.30415734

But girls are gross.

>> No.30415738

No question. Being raped by a balrog would be like getting raped by fire. The ejaculate matter would burn your insides like coals and blast through your entrails with more force than a 50 tons pressure per inch sandblaster.

you must remember that these beings are utterly evil, but also that they are tortured by fear and oppression. In people that are heavily oppressed for a long time, a need arises to have someone to abuse thats lower than you, because you feel better when you can do that. I see them as vicious, thoroughly evil demons who will rape anything, man woman or child, or even livestock, at the drop of a condom.

>be balrog
>see company of elves walking about without any obvious weapons
>orgy time
>fuck everything that moves
>to death

>> No.30415757

What makes you think the male Elves escaped untarnished?

>> No.30415772

Actually you raise an excellent point.

People say rape isn't funny, but a giant Satanic mountain sized physical god that is on fire (and on ice too, I can't remember) wanting to rape the author's waifu so violently it would be the literal worst thing EVER is so over the top that its hard for me to not find the concept to be hilarious and nightmarish at once.

Well, no, its not nightmarish, because my subconscious isn't demented enough to dream about Death Rape.

The most merciful thing about being mortal is that its impossible to survive the Dread Dick of Melkor, but maiar probably can, and demi-maiar probably could survive a long time.

>> No.30415781

The Balrogs serve because they are basically the first Death Metal band ever and they think this shit is totally fucking neato.

>> No.30415804

I honestly doubt the balrogs were tortured by fear and oppression. As maiar, they're almost peers to Morgoth, even if they are weaker. I doubt he needed to torture them much, considering they're all demigods who volunteered to join the Murder Patrol.

>> No.30415821

Before anyone says this is a waste, remember that ME elves can only be used once before needing to be replaced, as rape is fatal.

>> No.30415827

>That story
>those quads


>> No.30415851

Murder Patrol is a good band name.

>> No.30415856

>having dicks in the first place to be able to fuck someone

you guys clearly have spent too much time on 4chan. They're spirits of fire, not real living beings with biological needs.

>> No.30415896

You have literally no concept of how powerful Morgoth was. Balrogs would be like biting ants or stinging fleas to him. I'm talking one to three successful melee hits destroys a balrog. They are not his peers. They are his slaves. They were his peers in the time when he was still Melkor however, so you are still correct, he probably treats them better than he would lower slaves.

>> No.30415897

If a fucking shapeshifting spirits wants a dick, by Eru, he can have one.

>> No.30415908

Yeah, I kinda think the maiar-tier types served joyfully, at first because they believed in Melkor's grand design and then because WHOA FUCK THIS IS AWESOOOME. Then of course the inevitable buzzkill of defeat followed by eternal disembodied anguish.

I think you're probably right re: peers since when Morgoth was personally called out, being embarrassed in front of his followers was the cited reason. If the balrogs were just slaves he probably wouldn't care about their opinion. Likewise, I don't think Gothmog would have saved his master from Ungoliant if he viewed Melkor was his abuser.

There could, of course, be maiar who were tormented into becoming such.

>> No.30415914

You entered /tg/ magical realm no need to leave.
No exits, you see.

>> No.30415922

I'm sure he treats Gothmog about as well as he ever did anybody, including Sauron. The rest he probably regards the way you would a neighbor's children, at worst.

>> No.30415937

Melkor was more powerful as Melkor than he was as Morgoth, so your post makes little sense.

>> No.30415964


Incinerating people on your balrog dick and feeling them tightening around you as all moisture is vented out from every orifice as steam, and finally letting them shatter into spooge-encrusted charcoal when you climax, is not about "need."

Also Tolkien felt the need to stipulate that elves die if raped, so apparently rape was a thing.

>> No.30415969

I want to see this artist drawing morgoth losing his shit when all the fucking vala come to get him

>> No.30415988

It's been a month since I wrote. I wondered where the magic had gone.

>> No.30415993

Their power level isn't that dissimilar, even at the beginning. See: Ungoliant battle.

>> No.30416021

I'm aware of that. However, Morgoth was still many millions of times, unquantifiable huge numbers of times, more powerful than a Maiar, even as his weakest.

Have you read the Music of the Ainur? They didn't just create one world, they made the fucking universe. Such beings are by definition powerful far beyond the comprehension or quantifiability of a mortal perspective.

>> No.30416022

Their power level is massively dissimilar. Melkor was greater in power than every other Valar combined.

Balrogs aren't even near the top of the power scales for Maiar, let alone Valar.

>> No.30416028

Orcs raped. Humans raped. But Balrog? They are barely physical beings. Stop inserting your need for burning hot dick into middle earth.

>> No.30416039

Any forcible penetration could mean rape, if you were unlucky enough you could still get finger banged by a Balrog.

>> No.30416056

Did you just tell someone on 4chan to stop thinking about dicks?

>> No.30416086

No, I said "feel free to think about orc dicks or human dicks, but stop thinking about balrog dicks!"

Just like a balrog doesn't have wings, it doesn't have a dick either.

also, if you want to go into magical realm level, who said balrogs have to be male?

>> No.30416107

Are you implying Ungoliant was a maiar?

>> No.30416108

They're powerful enough that Melkor needed saving by one. And they're similar enough to him that being embarrassed in front of them would be worse than facing his fear of Fingolfin.

This appears to be the ONLY time in Melkor's life that he ever actually fought someone on purpose. Remember, this is a guy so fearful that it was the balrogs that he sent forth with giant burlap sacks to gather elves for orckification. And being embarrassed in front of them would be worse than even that.

>> No.30416130

>spirits of fire
You mean like Gandalf? Does he also not have a dick?

>> No.30416136

They aren't all male. Getting death-raped by a female is far worse than a male, actually. You're inserted into the body where you burn to death in an environment resembling an extremely hot furnace. So hot your skin and flesh literally melts and shits out the balrog's hole.

Yes, I have personally crafted a junji ito level of fucked up nightmare fuel out of middle earth. The document isn't quite ready for issue yet. But soon.

>> No.30416144

>They're powerful enough that Melkor needed saving by one
>by one

>> No.30416169

Gandalf probably didn't have a dick when he was just Olorin, a spirit of fire. But when he became one of the istari and assumed human form he probably had a dick.

why am I writing so many words about gandalfs dick

>> No.30416175

>who said balrogs have to be male?

Well now you're just teasing me, Anon.

>> No.30416204

Clearly you just needed a new set of fictional gays to write about

>> No.30416218

I assure you, balrog rape is not remotely sexy to me, its black comedy. Its also so far removed from anything that exists IRL that its not insensitive to joke about it.

Well, a balrog clitoris would probably be sized to work as a more comfortably sized penis (aside from being on fire), and so a female balrog raping people would probably be more identifiable as rape (still involving melting your insides) than as just a fucking horrifying execution. Alternately, balrog vaginal rape would probably involve them using arms and legs for the bones as organs would probably be destroyed too quickly by the heat.

It would of course be hilariously horrifying and honestly balrogs are 100x scarier to me nowadays.

>> No.30416239

Clearly, though my favorite, and best, has been het romance.

>> No.30416253

He didn't. Ungolianth did. And she was hardly under his control during or afterwards (if she ever truly was at all)

>> No.30416258

No, I'm implying he needed to be saved by Gothmog, a maia, and that Gothmog felt like it would be better to help Melkor rather than to let him die and assume control over the forces of evil.

>> No.30416259

I always thought the ending to LotR was a little bittersweet. I mean, yeah, evil tyrant is dead, good for us- but at what cost? I'm not talking costs in men and elves, since there are always more men and elves can respawn. I'm talking about the cost in PROGRESS. Mordor is so advanced in comparison to the rest of Middle-Earth it's not even funny, but the heroes inadvertently plunge it back into the Dark Ages in the course of their quest, dooming Middle Earth to at least another hundred years of non-progress because everyone associates steam engines with not-Satan.

>> No.30416264

/tg/ - Dicks and Rape

>> No.30416310

See >>30416136

>> No.30416316

Bittersweet victory is the essence of Middle Earth.

>> No.30416332

If the only way to permakill an elf was rape than by golly you're going to find a way to rape 'em so they can't track your ass down.
It's basic pragmatism, is all.

>> No.30416338



Try Gothmog and about 7 balrogs or so. That entire fight was the opposite of fair. It was morgoth vs "You haven't even gotten near my final form." Ungoliant.

>> No.30416350

What's so great about steam engines? They gonna cut down all the forests to run them? Mine up the coal, if it even exists in sufficient quantities untouched by the Dwarves?

>> No.30416357

Okay, fine, now its vaguely sexy. Happy?

>> No.30416362

They both did. Morgoth smote the trees with his spear, Ungoliant drank the sap and spread her toxin into the trees.

>> No.30416368

in terms of actual quality of life, the hobbits and so forth seemed to be doing pretty well for themselves, even without choo choo trains.

>> No.30416386

8 balrogs changing it from a curb stomp against Melkor to a curb stomp against Ungoliant definitely means they're peers in terms of power level.

>> No.30416410

>Ungoliant drank the sap
Was it tasty? Now I want to try that.

>> No.30416429

It was so tasty she became a Valar-tier combatant.

>> No.30416451

She fed on light, so your taste buds may not be able to savor the flavor.

>> No.30416485

Sure. I was just saying its really really bad. If you choose to use it in a storyline by all means, invent your own further details, or something totally different. My point in describing it was and is only to say that they are semi-mortal beings who feel thoughts and desires, so its likely that they've wandered into the magical realm side of things at least a few times just out of curiosity and boredom.

>> No.30416500

It'd probably tasted like tang

>> No.30416502



Nah. Ungoliant was driven back they never actually could kill her. That and it took 8 Balrogs or so to pull that off with Melkor. Balrogs aren't weak as say a one shot but 1 vs 1 a balrog would get their ass beat down. Hell Gandolf the grey could beat a single balrog and he isn't exactly anywhere close to Sauron who wasn't exactly anywhere close to Melkor.

>> No.30416513

>implying they all had dicks

>> No.30416520

Ah I see.

I don't think balrog rape will feature into my games, though I am tempted to run a scenario inspired by Melkor's curb stompy invasion of the elven realms, burlap sack balrogs and all.

>> No.30416537

Yeah I didn't get the impression it was a curbstomp either.

Gandalf also died 1:1 vs a balrog. This implies that they're about evenly matched.

>> No.30416538

other then balrog dicks, what was this thread about again?

>> No.30416542

It's mostly an example, but technology has this strange tendency to greatly improve the overall quality of life (at least until it's hijacked by rich folks and the Aristocracy reasserts itself and the cycle starts all over again)

>> No.30416550



I'd honestly go a little above that. It took Melkor and 6-8 high class Maia to beat her back. Other then that really drunk guy I can't think of many Valar that could compare to that one on one.

>> No.30416577

The Shire has totally fucking awesome quality of life and the only reason the rest of Anor didn't was because the Witch-King of Angmar was perpetually fucking with them.

>> No.30416586

One might also consider it from the point of view that Ungoliant is a culmination of darkness, void and greed and would suffer greatly from fire, the other half of Balrogs. Just like an ent would be extremely fierce opponent, it would still be very weak towards fire. Or she was just outpowered.

>> No.30416596

>The Sap was actually spice melange

>> No.30416624

Determining whether Sauron was wrong to do his job and hurry up with the Dagor Dagorath.

>> No.30416638

Getting away from dicks, what if some mine in the middle of Europe suddenly uncovered a balrog?

>> No.30416666

Yes, getting away from the dicks, we must now talk about how Ungoliant raped morgoth for no reason while they were both drunk on the sap of the two trees.

>> No.30416674

if durin's bane is any indication, it would kill all the miners then go back to sleep. it didn't seem like a very proactive creature.

>> No.30416752

Because orcs invaded the shit out of the West. The westerners were quite entitled to genocide the shit out of them because orcs have proven time and time again that they're violent savages who leap to serve the nearest dark lord whenever one appears. And when there isn't one they still raid and attack innocent people.

Same goes for easterlings and haradrim, long history of attacking the West.

remove kebab
remove ghormeh
remove wonton

orc genocide best day of my life

>> No.30416900

any chances of winning against it? Like, for example, send pope there and let him perform some exorcisms?

>> No.30416915

>not having deviant, decadent, malicious forces of evil
>Not having grand, noble, upright, honest and true forces of good

At the battle of mount doom 375 thousand orcs were killed, plus two adult dragons and Sauron, along with 150 thousand 500 various human slaves of sauron's.

>> No.30416959


I'm sure some high powered artillery or a localized airstrike would shred it. Most fantasy creatures would be easily handled by a modern military.

>> No.30416975

Well, in his human form he could smoke pipe, eat and drink too, so it seems logical that he would need penis to pee and arse to defecate.

>> No.30417033

We'll need a nuke, some heavy-duty helicopters, several bullets with gold inside them, pilots, skilled marksmen, some high-powered sniper rifles, and some very durable cables and hooks.

First thing we do is send the nuke down underground and blow it, opening the mine to the open air. Next thing we do is have our marksmen fire right into the thing's mouth with the gold-filled bullets, to get the gold inside it.

We then bring our helicopters into position with the cables and hookes below, and snag that bastard by the wings and arms. With that achieved, we lift it up and fly it the fuck southeast to Palestine.

When we reach Tel Aviv, we loose the cables and let it fall.

The Jews will perform their kabbalic sorcery to destroy the creature so they can get the gold we put in it.

Flawless victory.

>> No.30417036


Can't see it. Mainly because Balrogs are pretty much spirits. So it would take something like gandolf or the likes who can hit spirits to kill one.

>> No.30417098

/pol/ pls.
but that was pretty funny
also, wouldn't it be easier to just tell jews "kill this thing and we will give you gold"?

>> No.30417104

Balrogs have manifested physical form, just like Melian and the Istari have.

>> No.30417110

>The Pope
>Not capable of beating the Balrog's ass in single combat
Come on, we all know the REAL reason they're elected.

>> No.30417129

What the fuck is /pol/ about anyways?

And we can't just tell them we have gold, they'll ignore the balrog and just go right for us.

>> No.30417132


Out of fire and shadow. It is pretty damn hard to kill a shadow with a explosion.

>> No.30417156

that depends on how effective modern weapons are versus demons made out of magic fire and shadow

>> No.30417194

How about a firetruck and a spotlight?

>> No.30417196

/pol/ was and propapably is about jew conspiracies.

>> No.30417231

or use flashlights/fireworks, just like in Alan Wake.

>> No.30417282


They can walk around in the daylight so I don't think that would work. That and Balrogs are pretty fast. If I remember right they had to be moving around mach 33 or so to get to Melkor when he called for them.

The biggest issue I see is modern day military have the fire power. But I don't think they have the spiritual strength needed to kill one. Sort of how Sauron held back an entire army with pure presence. You need a little more then just raw power to kill a maia.

>> No.30417366

>Sauron held back an entire army with pure presence.
An army that had to fight him up close. We can bomb him from the stratosphere and pummel him with missiles from ships five hundred miles off.

>> No.30417426

durin's bane did get dunked in water, and this apparently extinguished its fire, but didn't seem to do much lasting damage. it also went up on top of the mountain and fought there for two days straight so light didn't bother it either. only gandalf (another maiar) was actually capable of killing it, after a lengthy battle.

>> No.30417498


Main issue there is I don't think missiles would have the spiritual presence needed to really flat out kill one.

Mainly because they exist both in the spiritual world and the normal one. So I would imagine you would have to be able to attack them in a way that they can't just build another body. That and it's magical shadow and fire which would be pretty resistant to things like explosions and shit. Because you're trying to blow up a shadow that exists without a object making it.

>> No.30417507

Balrogs are actually made of a substance. It is a light absorbing totally black material resembling slime which combusts as needed without consumption of itself. What specifically it is is not disclosed in a direct way but Gandalf's dialog suggests it has a body of some sort, as he was able to grab its heel and hear its footsteps to follow it through total darkness at the bottom of the world after their fall. He also says he 'smote its ruin upon the mountainside', suggesting he threw a physical thing down onto the mountainside when he killed it.

>> No.30417526

So how was Saruman, a Maiar, killed?

>> No.30417529


>extinguished its fire

Closer to soaking it so it couldn't stay on fire. It instead became slimy and more shadowy.

>> No.30417548

technically, he wasn't. maiar don't die when they are killed.

>> No.30417553

His essence wasn't killed, only his mortal shell. His spirit did't die, but didn't go to the west either as it opposed the valar's will. It's on the last pages of "Return of the king", look it up.

>> No.30417614

Point was that his body was gone and apparently didn't bother anyone after that.

>> No.30417653


Worm tongue was from a old family I"m pretty sure. So he should have the ability to do it. Kind of like how those 3 guys took down Sauron even if he came back later. That and sharky I'm pretty sure was still bound in a real human form.

My main issue with the idea is the picture that a non-sentient thing could kill something like a mid ranking spirit without any real will or influence in the spiritual.

>> No.30417751

Says you

>> No.30417803

He spirit rose up, looked west, looked east, then dissipated without going anywhere. Given my background lore knowledge of the world in which it takes place, I would suggest that this could be interpreted as Mandos issuing a judgement of nonexistence on Saruman, causing his spirit to dissipate into non-existence. Soul dying a second death, not a wipe from reality. Mandos is said to be "the doomsman of the Valar". A doomsman has legal authority to execute punishment of law, the word "doom" here used in an archaic sense to mean "Judgement issuing from a Judge, example: a doom of exile was issued by the three judges on him for his crime." So its definitely within the purview of his ability to do that to Saruman.

>> No.30417812

What about consecrated voodoo missiles?
I kind of want to run a Shadowrun game where Sauron returns to Middle Earth some 1500 years later and the protagonists are hitmen trying to kill him.

>> No.30417836

What's Tolkiens deal with the letter M?

Pretty much everything with an M is evil.

>> No.30417839

well, the istari had been incarnated into human form. even then, this doesn't not mean they were necessarily subject to ordinary physical harm - gandalf the white notes at one point that the weapons of aragorn, gimli and legolas "couldn't hurt him" (or something to that effect, after they attack him in fangorn IIRC). the balrog was likely similar, maybe to a greater degree because it wasn't made to take the form of a mortal.

saruman by the end of the book was severely diminished in terms of his spiritual presence, which was why he was menacing hobbits and not trying to conquer the world.

>> No.30417883

Sauron starts with S as far as I know.

>> No.30417908

Lots of terrible things start with m
Murder, Malus, Mean, Moose

>> No.30418008

>Because no-one gave a fuck about the Jews. Germany doesn't have your social justice bullshit: The Jews were literally made out of evil, and even a human child knew that they existed to get a righteous smiting.
>Germany isn't a nation where everything is shades of grey. There is Good and there is Evil, and people are keenly aware where they stand on the Axis.

>> No.30418037

>Main issue there is I don't think missiles would have the spiritual presence needed to really flat out kill one.
Then we'd call the Americans over. Their missiles are sacred artifacts to them, culturally.

>> No.30418045

Depends, does he play pool?
Because then we're talkin' 'bout trouble, with a capital T and that rhymes with P and that stands for pool.

>> No.30418086

What's that?

>> No.30418103

Funnily enough, "kill the Jews" was a pretty popular stance at the time.
Doesn't mean your debating tactics are anything short of terrible, but still.

>> No.30418109


>Shadow run

Now that changes things. Mainly because there is magic and shit running around.

>> No.30418152


>"kill the Jews" was a pretty popular stance.

No. A lot of people hated the jews and shit. But most didn't want to kill them all. Hell even chuchill crazy bastard that he was didn't want to kill them all.

>> No.30418158

Interesting side detail, "Mordor", is only a slight change from "Morthor", Old English, root "morth - death". In the OE alphabet, "th" is a single letter and it resembles a d. I believe it is a dorn, but its been some years since I studied the language.

>> No.30418171

Could the Guard have fought off the armies of Mordor?

>> No.30418216

>Have to pull a bank heist to get at the One Ring
>Gather allies in the Orc underworld so they don't side with Sauron because of decades of mistreatment from Elves and Men
>Mount Doom has been converted into a high-security geothermal plant/military base and the army fears that dropping the one ring in there will destroy the entire region by destabilizing the volcano

>> No.30418221


Easily. Though assuming they where just teloported there and with no back up Sauron would most likely corrupt all of them at some point or another. But the orcs and shit would get shat on by WW2 era technology let alone guard level.

>> No.30418227

countless trillions of laser totting drilled and savage unified soldiers with artillery, air support and armour so heavy it makes your mum look underweight against maybe a few hundred thousand half retarded monkey men with sharp sticks

you tell me

>> No.30418293

Depends on whether or not Sauron and Saurman are actually Gork and Mork in human form

>> No.30418303

Without going full blown /pol/ish hussar on this, namely because I'd prefer not to be kicked out of this board, I would like to point out two small details which are not widely known.

Firstly, at the time, a very large consortium of jewish interests was boycotting germany. This is years before any form of killing started.

Secondly, Germany's government had a lot of jews in it during the treaty-signing phase of ww1. This lead to a climate of suspicion against them that they had give up to the harsh terms because of a feeling of "this will affect the goyims, not us".

People in germany felt betrayed by a foreign population within their government, and saw the boycott as continued hostility.

Whatever your stance may be on the matter, the german hostility towards the jews at the time is understandable.

Mods: I said it was understandable. I did not issue any form of value statement on whether it was good or bad nor did I endorse it, I simply stated a fact. Plz no long ban.

>> No.30418394

Don't worry man, as long as your argument seems valid and doesn't have any ad hominems in it, mods won't do shit. Also, your post seems pretty valid tbh, and you seem to know lot about history. wanna share your knowledge? Preferably about German-Jewish relations in '20s

>> No.30418421

They didn't PERSONALLY want to kill then, no, but they certainly were willing to sit and let someone else gas them.
Seriously, British and American intelligence both knew about the camps for a good while before they went to war. They just didn't care.
It's some nasty stuff, yeah, but it's true.

>> No.30418474

Prefer not to discuss /pol/ish matters outside of /pol/. Its asking for trouble by violating global rule 3.

I will disclose one more pertinent fact however before I shut up about this. In the early 20th century, some very virulent anti-gentile and specifically anti-german literature was being propagated. Among the jewish populations, there had long been a climate of hostility towards outsiders, so the literature influenced eager young minds.

Mods: Alright, I'm done, I'm shutting up now. Plz no long ban.

>> No.30418482


Been a while since I read WW2 history. More of a ancient history guy. But I"m pretty sure they didn't really know the scale until they got deep into Germany. In general most people at the time would think flat out genocide was too far.

>> No.30418520

kay then, thanks for all. Too bad I don't go to /pol/.

>> No.30418579

If you're truly interested I urge you to do the research. Truth does not fear investigation, and knowing the true histories of things is a form of power over those things. I'm not endorsing any one specific narrative, just urging you to check into it yourself. Its quite interesting material.

>> No.30418592


>Too bad I don't go to /pol/

No it isn't. This guy above is pretty reasonable. Most people in /pol/ will claim lizardmen from mars is controlling the jews and other shit.

>> No.30418663

Well, yeah, I know that there are so silly tinfoiled people, but /pol/ is closest to /hist/ board we can get, so on the one hand I regret not going on /pol/, and on the other I really don't. It's harsh life.

>> No.30419150 [DELETED] 

>> No.30419197

>remove kebab
>remove ghormeh
>remove wonton
>orc genocide best day of my life

>> No.30419200

So there are horrible things outside Eru's Music?

>> No.30419248

>So as someone who hasn't read the books

>> No.30419449

>You think either of them ever hammered the other's anvil?
>Each have tested how the other's hammer felt in his hand

>> No.30419691

>British and American intelligence knew about the death camps before they went to war

That is impressive since the death camps were not fully operating until 1942 and the plan to kill the Jews was created in 1941. It was never the original goal to exterminate the Jews, they were to be deported first to Madagascar then Siberia but the war did not go the way the Germans intended.

>> No.30419929

>The most merciful thing about being mortal is that its impossible to survive the Dread Dick of Melkor, but maiar probably can, and demi-maiar probably could survive a long time.

>but maiar probably can

>> No.30419955

Valaraukar are very powerful. One of them holds the sun, and Gothmog was no slouch, either.

>> No.30419985

>that is on fire (and on ice too, I can't remember)
>fire and ice


>> No.30420048

I like to imagine that Gothmog, Glaurung, Sauron, Thuringwethil, and Morgoth all hang out and play P&P games together.

>> No.30420090

>who said balrogs have to be male?

Wasn't Durin's Bane a gril? That's why she was so mad; the dwarves interrupted her beauty sleep and tried to steal her jewelry

>> No.30420107


>> No.30420130

Oh, I thought she was just on her period.

>> No.30420139

>burlap sack balrogs
This is my new headcanon. It's so damn funny, plus it explains why Legolas was so upset in Fellowship when they realized what they had encountered. He would have grown up hearing daddy Thranduil's wild tales of the horrible balrogs who come creeping and stomping in the night to steal naughty elf children away in their great big sacks.

>> No.30420174

It wasn't proactive because it likely thought that the Valar's eagle scouts would spot it if it went outside, and the Valar's army would come beat it up again. Think of it like those Japanese fellas who hid out on islands in the Pacific for sixty years.

>> No.30420206

He was in a killable wizard form, all the Istari were.

>> No.30420225

Same way Gandalf was: he got sent back to Valinor.

>> No.30420239

Question: are there a finite number of Elf souls and, if not, where do new ones come from?

>> No.30420246


>> No.30420267

Wouldn't that mean that she could have little balrog children, Anon? Pretty sure only the Children of Illuvatar did that, m8, barring special circumstances (Melian sucking Thingol's dick, etc.)

>> No.30420306

Eru is God, right? So he made the exact amount of Elf souls, and put them in his Elf cycle of life and death and relife, ya dig? They all start out unborn, and then a set number awake, and are born as the first elves. As they conceive children, they draw upon the stock that Eru already put in place, and since He's omniscient and omnipotent, he made the exact right amount to start with to account for all elves that will ever live and be reincarnated, etc.

>> No.30420355

Is Morgoth That DM or That Guy?

Is Ungoliant ever invited to these games?

>> No.30420376

So how is reincarnation decided? Is it like a lottery or is there just a really long line?

>> No.30420400

That wasn't quite clear. I'd ask Mandos, but I think he's busy pronouncing Dooms. It seems to be pretty contingent on circumstances, though.

>> No.30420437

I think it only happens if someone makes it happen.

>> No.30420474

Why didn't Galadriel just punch each of the Nazgul in the dick, one after the other, walk right on into Mordor, punch Sauron in the dick, and then walk back home? Why not just do this every fifty years or so, to show him who's boss?

>> No.30420491


None of Mordor's inventions were anything resembling good. They did nothing to improve the quality of life on Middle Earth, and medieval stasis was entirely idyllic.

It's like talking about Chaos technology in 40K. "Oh, the advances we missed on! If only we could bind demons in a safe and responsible way!"

It's not remotely bittersweet, because there was nothing good about that technology. All it would have brought about was corruption, death and misery.

>> No.30420501


You're thinking Bombadil, anon.

>> No.30420526

Nah, he was a dick, didn't even care about nothing.

>> No.30420551

Morgoth should be That DM. Ungoliant should be That Girl

>> No.30420634

cause she is a pussy. very old, but nevertheless sexy pussy Also because Sauron is much more powerful, just like angel is more powerful than human.

>> No.30420735


For some reason, your post made me wonder: what does Galadriel's vagina smells like?

>> No.30420841


>> No.30421576


>> No.30421845

Huh, no art by dresen Codak yet.

What do you guys think of his take?


>> No.30422085

>What do you guys think of his take?
I bet you can make a pretty good guess as to the answer of that question based on
>no art by dresen Codak

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