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[ERROR] No.30387541 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

So, /tg/, do you buy minis for their looks, or their rules? Which is most important to you?

From Faeit:
>At the recent HSC in North America (collaborating info I had from my UK source) is that GW feels (whether rightly or not...Im thinking not) that the whole reason we purchase miniatures is not because of what they can do in a game (rules wise) but we do so because of how they look. That surprised some of us. Combined that with the same reason the Codex/Army book comes out later, that might indicate a disconnect between corporate and its customer base. We have decided to dig on this issue, conduct surveys across the US GW/Independent stores to get an actual consensus. What we will do with that info? No idea yet.

I'm wondering if this is partly a US-UK difference- there certainly seems to be more of a tournament/competitive scene in Murrica. Personally I'm more about the looks, but I'd love it if Geedubs put some effort into the rules. Additional question, though: can a survey persuade Geedubs to care about rules? And, if it does, will the result be more balance- or just a whole load of deliberate powercreep?

>> No.30387590

>>30387541
>or just a whole load of deliberate powercreep?
"Mr Kirby, we thought you should see this. Seems some of the upstart colonials have organised a survey, and apparently our customers give a shit about how good our rules are."
"What? We have rules?"
"Yes, Mr Kirby. Technically speaking, we make games."
"Well I'll be damned. And if we make those rules better... we can sell more of those space thingies."
"Marines, sir. And yes, it certainly appears so."
"Then what the hell are you doing standing there? Get me... Matt Ward."

>> No.30387817

So they made a game where the rules explicitly state that you need the specific model to play, and they somehow think that people don't buy them because of the rules?

I'd ask if they were retarded, but it's GW, so I already know the answer.

>> No.30387835

Do you honeslty believe I play nids because of the rules?

Christ. I must be a closeted masochist.

>> No.30387848

>>30387835
> playing nids
> thinking you're not the one already

>> No.30387865

>>30387541
I buy because of looks, but I don't buy GW. Most games I play don't get so nitty gritty with individual unit stats and armies and all that pants.

>>30387817
>and they somehow think that people don't buy them because of the rules?
It may surprise you to hear this, but GW is a miniatures company and not a game company.
Otherwise their game wouldn't suck.

>> No.30387870

>>30387541
Rules.

GW's have been pisspoor which is why I've jumped to Warmahordes. Uglier models with shittier material but I know I'll get a hard-fought game every time rather than hear some whiny fag across the table complaining about my broken list.

Too late for GW at this stage.

>> No.30387944

>>30387835
I guess there's levels to this. So you might play a given faction because you like their overall look, but you might choose the specific models that have decent rules.

>> No.30387974

>>30387817
They'd be complete idiots if they dismissed the importance of rules altogether, but they might be right that looks are more important for sales.

On the other hand, stuff like the Nid codex does tend to support the 'complete idiots' theory...

>> No.30388027

>>30387541
Looks
I don't play anyway

>> No.30388046

>>30387541
Looks and fluff.

I can adapt to any play style honestly. But I wont if I don't like the army that I'm playing.

>> No.30388327

>>30387865
>>30387974
Oh certainly, while I won't discount the fact that they do make nice sculpts and care about them, if the rules were really that unimportant, they wouldn't disallow proxying or try to shut down Vassal or other things that allow people to play the game without having to pay for miniatures.

Even if the rules to their games are oftentimes fucking awful, people still buy GW minis because they want/need to to both implement and abide by the rules of the games that they're intended for.

As >>30387865 said
>I buy because of looks, but I don't buy GW
And that's true for me too. I love painting puny pewter people, but I don't give two fucks about GW beyond maybe really old 40K sculpts.

Probably the only game-associated miniatures I would buy just because I like the sculpts are Sodapop's

>> No.30388753

I've never played Infinity in my life.
My stash of Infinity things however is huge.

>> No.30388911

>>30387944
>I guess there's levels to this. So you might play a given faction because you like their overall look, but you might choose the specific models that have decent rules.
I thought everyone did this. Well except of course for the paint-and-model-only guys and the easily hyped adolescents.

>> No.30388980

It's a mix for me, really. I'll buy miniatures to include in my army that I really like the look of but aren't the best option (e.g Sentinels and Kasrkin/Stormtroopers); though I won't buy absolutely useless units (Ogryns) or completely derpy-looking ones (Stormravens).

The gaming scene in Southern England isn't particularly competitive, however, so you can actually get away with non-optimum lists most of the time.

>> No.30389014

>>30387541
Looks is certainly more important, but rules go a long way.

I think its pretty obvious by how many people have 40k/whfb stuff even though the rules clearly suck.

Thing is, i see a lot of people who play 40k/whfb because they love their minis, but each match you can see how painful it is for them to go through it.

Now the real question is why do people not simply use the 40k/whfb miniatures and play with other rules, but i guess its simply about knowledge.

Like it or not, we who go on the internet and put a lot of research into the hobby are in a minority, and also not every city has flgs, but they surely have at least one gw store.

So i guess the real thing is accessibility, gw stores are a franchise like mcdonalds, whereas other miniature games are played at flgs which are harder to come by it seems, and they dont always have tables to play on.

What gw needs to do though if they are continuing with this mcdonalds approach is that they really need to streamline and boil down their rules to the core, so that the game becomes accessible as fuck. I think then they will have a huge increase in sales, be it good for the gaming world or not.

You can not imagine how often i have seen people who love the look and feel of the minis, they adore the fluff, but then once you start explaining even just the very core rules of 40k/whfb they decide not to pick it up.

I think the world deserves a competing franchise though, a sort of burger king of miniature wargaming. Another store in every city where you can be introduced to the hobby, hang out and play, but is made by a company that is more competent.

Maybe mantic will step up to the challenge and try to do such a thing, they certainly have the right attitude when it comes to pricing and rulesets.

>> No.30389042

>>30387541
well you are buying miniatures that you can then use for anything from putting them up as a display, making a diorama, playing with the official rules, playing with other rules, just playing with them as a kid... so the look is 90% more important than the rules in the end... the last thing gw needs to do is to listen to the vocal minority in their customer base...

>> No.30389057

>>30389014
>but i guess its simply about knowledge.
I'd argue that it's more about acceptance and getting out of the provided "comfort zone" of official, emperors-seal-of-approval-bearing, 100%-guaranteed-non-heretic rules.

>> No.30389170

I buy and paint the ones I like the look of. I don't play 40k or Fantasy anymore though since I can't find anyone who shares my opinion on how to have fun playing them.

They're at their best, in my opinion, when you play them in a more narrative than competitive style. Selecting units based on the character or theme you want your army to show and using them on the table in regard to this and how the encounter and dialog with your opposite develops.

If you want to play a balanced, competitive game where you can go at your opponent mercilessly and try to best them with your grasp of mechanics and tactics then there are loads of games out there which perfectly fit this need. GW doesn't make any of them though.

>> No.30389204

>>30389057
Lets step back for a moment from our being gamers, and lets look at how miniature wargaming is seen from an outside perspective. This is something that i have been fascinated by lately, and as such i asked a ton of questions to both new and veteran players, and people who are completely outside of the hobby.

First off, most people out there have no clue that this hobby even exists. Although it may seem huge to us, the hobby is pretty much non-existant outside of the people who know about it.

The only thing people seem to know of is dungeons and dragons from movies and tv shows. That is not to say they play it, they just know of it, and most people think of it as retarded. Also let me be clear, people are only aware of d&d, and every person i spoke to was baffled when i explained that there are hundreds of other roleplaying games out there.

What most people know are board games, and even there most people only know 2-3 board games, with the most well known one being monopoly, and then a few others children ones like connect four and guess who.

Now when it comes to miniature wargames, barely anyone knows that such things even exist, and very few know of them through having a father that plays ancient/napoleonic wargames.

Oh and of course everyone knows the warhammer video games such as dawn of war and space marines, but most gamers who knew those games that i asked didnt know about the tabletop or do any research into the 40k universe. In fact, most people who play the video games think that the 40k universe is just from the video games.

This is where games workshop comes in. (cont.)

>> No.30389211

>>30389204
(cont.)

This is where games workshop comes in.

People simply don't know about miniature wargames, but they do know about board games. And whilst there are not many game stores purely dedicated to board games and such around, there are plenty of toy stores in the world with board games in them.

Games workshop by most people is thought of as a toy store that sells board games. 90% of the people who walk into a games workshop store come in looking for board games, and are surprised to find out that they only supply 2 "board games".

But here is the key. People can walk into a games workshop store in the first place.

They will walk past it on the street, see the miniatures on display, maybe they are looking for a present for someone, maybe they are looking for some board game, but they see the store.

Then they walk in, and are introduced to the world of miniature wargames.

This is their key strength, knowledge that miniature wargames exist. And they are very smart in not allowing the sale of other game systems in their store, because as far as all people who are not in the hobby are concerned, the only miniature wargame out there IS 40k/WHFB.

Seriously, most people are surprised when you tell them that there are plenty of other wargames, and they always ask where you can get them. When you explain that you have to go to obscure and far away places, or go on the internet, they usually lose their interest.

So yea, games workshop is the leading miniature wargame simply because its the only one that is easily accessible. All other games have to be searched for, and people who are not already into the hobby simply have no means to find them / find out about them.

(cont.)

>> No.30389218

>>30389211
(cont.)

Now this is where i believe that games workshop should be a bit smarter with their pricing, and at least offer better starter boxes.

As i said, 90% of the people who walk into the store are looking for a board game, so sell them a fucking board games you idiots!

Make a box with a bunch of minis, some terrain, a simplified vesion of the rules containing the stat profiles of the minis in the box, and some dice/templates/measuring sticks. And sell that for an affordable price.

(fin)

>> No.30389247

>>30389204
The average person knows about GW and whole tabletop aspect, in the UK at least, since the stores have been everywhere for ages.

There's a very pejorative perception of the whole thing thing though, from the game to the stores to the people who are likely to play.

>> No.30389279

For me it is a combination of both - I enjoy modelling and painting and I enjoy GW's product in that regard. That said I do travel a ton so I tend to play in larger tournaments (more chances to play more games) so the rules have to coincide with good looking models for me to jstify a purchase.

>> No.30389282

>>30389247
Yes i think in the UK the scene is completely different because it started there and its been around for ages, also the fact that the UK is fairly "small/compact" makes it easier to get access to this stuff.

I have lived in a bunch of different countries in europe, including italy, spain, portugal, france, germany, austria and switzerland, and i can tell you that the scene is completely different.

Nobody knows miniature wargames, and the few that do only know games workshop thanks to them having stores in every major city.

>> No.30389296

>>30389218
>so sell them a fucking board games you idiots
Amen to that. I and I think many thousands of other kids got into Warhams through Heroquest and Space Crusade. It really baffles me that they stopped doing that, and it's even weirder that their last experiment with a board game (Dreadfleet) was something with models that were utterly useless for their main product lines.

>> No.30389317

>>30389014
>they certainly have the right attitude when it comes to pricing and rulesets.

>Mantic promises to put all their rules online for free
>Kings and Heroes and Basilean Legacy go out of print
>start selling them digitally

I guess Mantic needed more shekels even though they already get free money from Kickstarter.

>> No.30389383

>>30389204
>>30389211
>>30389218
This is definitely true for the average person. There's no sense in arguing against that. People wouldn't know what warmahordes or infinity are except for "a weird word" and "a long ass time".

But when we look at the average wargamer, this lack of knowledge is at the very least not the only factor. These people stick to GW not only because they don't know anything else, but also because they refuse to deviate from "the standard". They "trust" GW and they don't "trust" anything else, because it is simply not that big and therefor not that "official" or "real".

>> No.30389413

>>30389296
I started 40k when 3rd edition as it just came out and this is the box that i got. At the time i thought it was an awesome looking board game with a bunch of extra stuff that you could add to it. It was awesome, had a big book with all army lists, and it came with a ton of things from templates to terrain to the models themselves.

Now personally i think that this is already "too much" in a certain sense, and that they could make a better package, this is my idea for content:

>20-30 models
>3-4 medium sized terrain pieces
>5-10 small sized terrain pieces
>5-10 dice
>1-2 measuring sticks
>templates only if the models require them
>small rulebook with a little fluff and just basic rules and rules that apply to the models in the box
>small codex with just the units in the box and some fluff

Sell this in a typical board game format and at a competitive price with other board games, and i think they could make a ton of sales.

ALSO

The way i see it they could totally make this smaller and use skirmish rules for it.

>> No.30389414

>>30389383

Permanency is what you are looking for. GW, by dint of how long they've existed, have this feeling of being permanent - you don't think your investment is going to be washed away by them going under in a few years.

>> No.30389425

>>30389317
What are you on about? The rules are online for free with army lists for each faction...

>> No.30389443

>>30389414
>>30389383
Couldn't agree with that more anon, one of the biggest reason people cite as to why they don't try new systems is because they are afraid to not find other players, and they don't want to make an investment in something that might be dead within 1-2 years.

>> No.30389460

>>30389383
I think the key thing is usually that nobody else plays those games. You might have heard of them, but if everybody you know only plays 40k, that doesn't really get you anywhere.

>> No.30389498

>>30389413
>>30389413
This is why deadzone was such a smart fucking move from mantic, people are buying this as a board game, and if they really care they can then buy the expansion stuff and armies online.

>> No.30389533

>>30389498
The only thing i don't understand is why they are using d8s. Outside of the gaming community nobody knows that there is something else than d6s, and they are the most common dice to have lying around...

>> No.30389608

>>30389533
They're not marketing it outside of the gaming community though.

And D8s because eh why not, makes just as much sense as D6s mechanically.

>> No.30389612

That said, does making rules cost much ?
They are vast scope for improvement even without remaking the whole game (which could be commercially dangerous). Even a little more play-testing could vastly improve their rules. It would be an huge investment, right ?

>> No.30389614

>>30387541
Rules.

And since nids have been shat on so much, I'm jumping to the avp wargame.

It's supposed to have rules virtually similar to warzone ressurection, which I've heard good things about.

>> No.30389697

>>30389608
I guess so, but when it comes to something skirmish sized i always think that 2D6 with modifiers makes for a much more consistent game.

>>30389612
Making rules virtually costs nothing. Of course taking the time and people to test them is another thing.

Also, i think the way to improve the warhammer rules for both systems is not so hard. Right now they have the basic system done, but the game is bogged down by a ton of useless little things one has to pay attention to.

Improving the rules is just a matter of streamlining and stripping them to their core in my opinion. Or you know, just take a look at what other simpler systems are doing and copy their shit.

>> No.30389714

>Spent several hundred dollars on 40k minis
>Never once played a game of 40k
It's not that I'm agginit or anything, I've just never had the chance.

>> No.30389774

>>30389612
>That said, does making rules cost much ?
I always think the same thing. Making rules is dirt cheap. What is not is changing the entire corporate culture. Making it clear to everyone responsible that good rules are even needed.

>> No.30389781

>>30389714
i bought a bunch of minis some years ago, painted them and never played

then i recently pulled them out again, painted them some more, and now i am not playing

i just cant be fucked to walk into a games workshop where i am surrounded by passive aggressive nerds and play this shit

>> No.30389796

>>30389781

Then don't go to a GW and find your FLGS/Gaming Club? Alternatively you have no idea what your local GW is like, mine is run by a nice guy and 99% of the customer base is pretty cool.

>> No.30389797

>>30389781
What if the people in your local shop are actually pretty cool?

>> No.30389847

>>30387541

I play CSMs, I like most of their looks, I like most of their fluff, I hate most of their rules. I don't think I'm being greedy, selfish, or outlandishly naive when I say I want and expect from a game company a product that fulfills good rules + good fluff + good aesthetics. If GW insists they're concentrating on one over the others, they've already fucked up.

>> No.30389894

>>30389796
the gw store is full of horrible passive aggressive nerds and there is no flgs anywhere near where i live

>> No.30389962

>>30387541
I'm influenced by both looks and gameplay effects, but I'd say looks have probable made more of an impact on my spending habits.

I'll buy a fantastic model with crap rules just for the pleasure of painting it up for display, even if I never intend on putting it on the table - or even if it's not from an army I play. But it doesn't matter how powerful something is on the tabletop - if I don't like the model and can't find or convert a substitute, it's not going in my army.

>> No.30390186

>>30389781
What the fuck is it with you retards and going to shops to play warhams? Don't you have any friends?

Christ, I live in a town with less than 3000 inhabitants and there are like 10 people here who play warhams in eachother's home's.

I'd rather get shot in my kneecaps than play in a store.

>> No.30390324

>>30390186
none of my friends play wargames nor do they feel like investing the money it would take to play

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