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[ERROR] No.30257015 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

So, /tg/, are there actually any good qualities to Sauron or is he/it just wholly evil?

>> No.30257025

He was a brilliant craftsman.

>> No.30257079

Bretty gud strategist.

>> No.30257107

He's got a purty mouth.

>> No.30257137

Fantastic artisan.

He's also pretty as fuck.

>> No.30257225

No virtues or anything similar to it? Just completely evil in his intentions and behaviour?

>> No.30257248


>> No.30257268


He's a pretty

>> No.30257313

Yes. Middle-Earth is not a morally ambiguous place.

>> No.30257319

Literal virtues? Well, let's see:

>> No.30257341


He knows magic, and he's always willing to share his gifts. He also taught the elves ring making at no cost.

>> No.30257347

>Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness [as Morgoth had]. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.) Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of palantíri or spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him. But like all minds of this cast, Sauron’s love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron’s right to be their supreme lord), his ‘plans’, the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself.

from "the history of middle-earth"

>> No.30257349

Fuckable. That's a good quality.

>> No.30257377

He was going to share the joys of industrialization to middle earth. Unfortunately, the royalist coalition managed to stop him.

>> No.30257387 [SPOILER] 

>> No.30257401

Well okay, it was sort of confusing because Sauron and his servants are displayed as completely irreversibly evil and there isn't anything good about them, which strikes me as contrasting to the side of good which is often capable of evil in the universe. Or maybe I'm just retarded.

>> No.30257443


This is some of the most needlessly obfuscated writing I've ever read.

>> No.30257505


He's the embodiment of the will to dominate others. Hard to think of any redeeming qualities he displays.

>> No.30257510


None of his servants are irredeemable(Well, besides the ring wraiths and Balrogs)

J.R.R Tolkien was Catholic. And so, anyone can embrace God or good. Therefore, he'd later state that there were good orcs. Unfortunately, none of them appear in the stories.

>> No.30257563

>serving Sauron

>> No.30257589


I'd say so. Sauron was far stronger than a Balrog. Especially after he made his ring.

Sauron was Morgoth's lieutenant. Not some Balrog. Which indicates him as the stronger one.

>> No.30257630

LotR is stupid black and white christian fanfiction that's not news to anyone.

>> No.30257632

>Therefore, he'd later state that there were good orcs. Unfortunately, none of them appear in the stories.

what he actually said was that orcs were not irredeemable, but he didn't say if any orcs were actually redeemed.

>> No.30257657

Well maia are above Valaraukar, right?

>> No.30257670

In the terms of power you are correct, but the power doesn't really matter, because barlogs were dead/gone/hiding and Sauron couldn't reach them. Also without his ring on finger, I'd say that he'd be even in a fight with a balrog, maybe slightly more powerful.

>> No.30257672

Still they wouldn't be his servants. They were Morgoth's servants. But bending your knee to the upstart pretty boy? I don't think so. The Balrog of Moria didn't come out too look for Sauron.

>> No.30257706

I haven't read the Silmarillion for some times, but weren't Gothmog and Glaurung as high ranked as Sauron?

>> No.30257739


He's made of raw evil. Middle-Earth is refreshingly low on moral ambiguity.

>> No.30257752


Gothmog was the lord of Balrogs and the chief of Angband, but he was not Morgoth's right hand.

>> No.30257766

first statement false. second statement somewhat true.

>> No.30257790

for everyone saying that Sauron is portrayed without any good qualities and is total evil, it is worth reminding that the books weren't written in the point of view of the bad guy.

So of course he's going to come across as pure evil, because even the most evil motherfuckers are doing normal and sometimes good things in the background that you wouldn't notice.

>> No.30257851

>implying it isn't true

>> No.30257861

Didnt some orks fight against Morgoth during his final battle? Name of that battle seems to escape me currently..

I remember a sentence like:
"Only elves were seen on only other side of battle" implying Orcs fighting for Good.

>> No.30257898

He's got nice eyes!

>> No.30257936


The way Tolkien described him in his letters, Sauron started out as a well intentioned reformer; he thought the world was imperfect, and he knew how to fix it. He wanted to help. Unfortunately, he was also a control freak and not everybody agreed with his ideas.

Due in part to the influence of Morgoth, he ultimately started lying and using force to try and MAKE people do things the way he wanted. That was Sauron's whole deal once he was a dark lord; he wanted to enslave the world for its own good, though his concept of "good" was wildly skewed. Morgoth, by contrast, wanted to tear reality down and rebuild it in his own image, and didn't give a shit about controlling people.

>> No.30257940

I don't think the Balrogs were Sauron's servants though. They were Morgoth's servants. Sauron was a higher rank them, true, but his command was not over them. Gothmog was given that command.

The only Balrog we see in Lord of the Rings wasn't working for Sauron either I think. He was just waiting for Morgoth to come back when the sounds of orcs and the fellowship caught his attention.

>> No.30257992

>The way Tolkien described him in his letters
Who were these letters written to?

>> No.30258025

>hey mairon
>you're not like rest of these faggots right
>you like cool stuff like me
>come help me with this
and then he goes I AM RADICAL LIKE MELKOR FUCK YOU ALL because that was his identity at that point

>> No.30258077


That one was in response to a fan named To Peter Hastings. We have a lot of Tolkien's fan letters and notes.

>> No.30258082

Sauron wasn't that much of a fighter, though

>> No.30258097

Well he turbodicked Gandalf in a 1v1 without his ring. Not sure if that counts for anything though.

>> No.30258118


I don't know why people say that. He only had three fights, one of which he won easily, one which he lost badly, and one where he lost but took down his two most dangerous attackers in the process.

And in the two he lost, one was against A) an angel in the form of a celestial hound, who has fate and prophecy on his side (and that shit trumps everything else in Middle-Earth) and Sauron was intentionally restricting himself for most of the fight, staying in the form of a great wolf and B) a battle where it was five against one, two of whom were superhumans and the other three were powerful elf lords.

>> No.30258133


To be fair, he did want to redeem himself after the War of Wrath, but was too afraid of punishment to go through with it.

>> No.30258161


They never met.

>> No.30258184

>What is Desolation of Smaug

>> No.30258204

fuck you, thats not nice

>> No.30258221


The movies lied to you.

>> No.30258240

We all know that Peter Jackson owns it all now. Besides, didn't Gandalf meet Sauron in the Hobbit book too?

>> No.30258260

>Besides, didn't Gandalf meet Sauron in the Hobbit book too?


didnt you read it?

>> No.30258278

When I was little, yes. I just vaugely remembered something about the Necromancer in the book. I must be mistaken.

>> No.30258290

not >>30258240 But I vaguely recall him dealing with the necromancer (aka sauron) at some point. It was offscrene though.

>> No.30258295

A bad uncanonical movie.

>> No.30258328


He snuck into Dol Guldur while Sauron was in residence, but they never actually met.

>> No.30258357

Sounds like an episode of a sitcom.

>> No.30258358

Well now that we've had a nice, productive discussion how about some pretty-boy Sauron wankery?

Come on /tg/. You know you want to...

>> No.30258364

he was in favor of orc rights

>> No.30258368

Welcome to Tolkien's writing.

>> No.30258381


>> No.30258398


Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

>> No.30258401


>> No.30258417


It was never intended for publication.

>> No.30258418


>> No.30258423

It was mentioned that while Sauron taught the Elves ring making, they made quite a bit of magical jewelry.

If you chose to serve Sauron and he liked you, he'd probably give you magical jewelry that made you pleasing to his eyes.

Someone who largely has orcs as servants needs something beautiful to look at.

>> No.30258427

It's mentioned in Silmarillion that Gandalf visited Necromancer's place once, fled, came back and using devices of Saruman the white council made Sauron "flee". At this time Saruman has started his fall to darkness. It isn't strictly in The Hobbit but it happens at the same time.

>Sauron wasn't that much of a fighter, though
True, most fights Sauron was involved, he lost. Though Gandalf isn't much of a fighter either, he won the Balrog most likely because of his ring of fire which kept his fea to the max.

>> No.30258440


>> No.30258443

Only because orcs were dumb enough to listen to him.

>> No.30258450

I cannot for the life of me remember what this is, but I know it's important.

Give me a refresher course on LotR lore, please, Anonymous?

>> No.30258467

Who draws these?

>> No.30258471

>stupid black and white
If you only watch the movies, maybe.

>> No.30258484


All beings in Middle-Earth have hroa (body) and fea (spirit) in greater or lesser degrees. Maiar are pretty much all fea, but can create their own hroa. Elves are extremely powerful beings of fea, just barely bound in hroa. Men, dwarves, and hobbits all have a fea core, but have more hroa then the others.

>> No.30258485

It mostly consists of Melkor going, "Hey, nice [insert important thing here] you've got there. Shame if I fucked it up."

>> No.30258500


A gay Russian guy on deviantart.

>> No.30258515

Some deviant art dude(tte?) called Phobs.

>> No.30258530


JRRT created races of ugleh, evil as fuck orcs and goblins who fight beautiful elves, men and halfmen.
Looks pretty black and white to me.

>> No.30258542

Fëa, fire, is the lifeforce of the being. Fëanor supposedly had his life fire to the max, his mother died because of that and he was essentially the best because of that and he was able to make the Silmarils. Even Aule couldn't make Silmarils. When he died he literally turned to ash.
Figuratively it's like the living body is a wooden block and the fire is the life. Even if you're and elf and very thick wood, if you burn as fiercely as Fëanor, you'll die soon.

>> No.30258547


thank ye, pals

>> No.30258561

was it mentioned anywhere that Sauron looks exactly like a woman with nomale features whatsoever?

>> No.30258571

You mean Fëanor was some kind of elven nuclear reactor?

>> No.30258592


He doesn't have breasts

>> No.30258599


So basically Gandalf had the coolest ring around.
Well, second best, anyway.

>> No.30258611


Doesn't exactly rule out womanhood though.

>> No.30258612

And he also-
Wait a minute, that picture.
Carry on.

>> No.30258622

Oh god, was Saurons vision to turn everyone transgenders, wasnt it?!

>> No.30258627

More or less, and just as dangerously unstable as any other nuclear reactor in pseudo-medieval times.

I think /tg/ universally agreed once that there was no situation Feanor could not be included in that would not be made a thousand times worse by his mere presence.

I'm sure that thread was archived but it was postulated that, had Feanor gotten his paws on Sauron's precious, he would have found it hilariously incomplete and would have worked tirelessly to "perfect" it and bind the whole world to his will.

Guy was a dick.

>> No.30258629


It was mentioned that he was fair to look upon in the Guise of Annatar, given of gifts. Morgoth was almost always a monstrous dark lord, though. And after the fall of Numenor Sauron looked like that too.

It's implied Sauron's skin was charred and blackened as if in a fire, and his body gave off great heat. He incinerated the elven high king by touching him.

>> No.30258638

When Sauron went to 'seduce' elves for the rings, he took a very fair and beautiful form and called himself "Annatar" which means Lord of Gifts. Coincidentally, Anna is give in Finnish and a female name, -tar ending is female version prefix, King would be Kuningas and Queen would be Kuningatar so it's "Giverlady". I state this because Tolkien did use Finnish (among others) in his stuff. Sauron was also stated to be able to change his shape so it isn't far fetched that he was in female shape.

>> No.30258654

>I think /tg/ universally agreed once that there was no situation Feanor could not be included in that would not be made a thousand times worse by his mere presence.

I remember that thread. Man, Feanor. What a fuck up.

>> No.30258660

>and his body gave off great hea
Gay thoughts, go away.

>> No.30258662

Sorry, suffix, not prefix.

>> No.30258665


So Sauron was Tumblr?
No wonder they called him "the Abhorrent".

>> No.30258670

not having breasts is the lack of a female feature, not a male one.

>> No.30258674


Maia have no gender. He just wants to be "comely"

>> No.30258676


All elves are described as fair and beautiful regardless of gender, and Tolkien only borrowed the sound of Finnish and created his own meanings and etymology for elvish.

You just want to fuck a version of Sauron you made up in your own head.

>> No.30258704


Sauron always took a form(whenever possible) that was pleasing to the eyes.

One of the reasons he was pissed when Numenor was sank, since he could never be pretty after that

>> No.30258708

Latûk bagishi

Black Speech is weird

>> No.30258727

and it makes you EEEVIL

>> No.30258733

I still dont see how that implys he is a woman!

>> No.30258758

>implying guys can't enjoy being pretty

I'm a guy and I'm pretty. I love being pretty, because I hardly have to do work when I want to hit on a girl. A pretty face is like the perfect pickup line that you never say.

>> No.30258802


It doesn't. Sauron would be like a perfect androgynous creature.

>> No.30258891


There's no reason to assume that from anything Tolkien wrote.

>> No.30258966

So during the war of the ring, did Sauron just run around blackened and burnt and without a finger?

>> No.30259006


He was busy being incorporeal, if i remember right.

>> No.30259095


>> No.30259096


It's unclear in the book proper whether Sauron still has a body, but in his letter Tolkien sure seemed to imply it, talking about how if Frodo hadn't destroyed the Ring when he got to Mt. Doom, Sauron would have come for him personally.

His exact shape, though, is unclear. Tolkien mentioned that he'd be taller than a human, but not gigantic, and would be dark and terrible to look upon.

>> No.30259106

He just wanted to fit in.

>> No.30259110

>missing out on a fight with the BBEG

Frodo really missed out on some good XP.

>> No.30259135

Now I'm imagining American Psycho as the story of Morgoth turning evil over the constant bullshit around him.

>mmmm i wonder who Sauron is...

>> No.30259169


That fight was waaaaaaaay out of his level.

>> No.30259177

thing is, main character was broken since the beginning of the movie

>> No.30259205

Frodo probably wanted to keep the ring because he was a min maxer too. He probably didn't get any exp from dumping the ring because the GM had to use golum to railroad the rings destruction.

>> No.30259224

Dwarves aren't that pretty.

>> No.30259235

Wasn't Morgoth broken from the beginning too? Something about that he saw the darkness from before time.

You know. Tom Bombadil. Tom MOTHERFUCKING Bombadil.

>> No.30259242

he's clearly epic level by the end of the book

>> No.30259259


That's why they're always so ANGRY.

>> No.30259275

Say what you want, but at last his armour was stylin'

>> No.30259361

Typical Sauron, always classy.

>> No.30259401

>not ugly as FUCK

>> No.30259408

No, it isn't unclear, Gollum met him and describes him as still lacking a finger.

>> No.30259411


The only thing I didn't like about Sauron and the Nazgul in the movies was how ragged their cloaks/robes were. Those guys were classy as fuck, they'd take care of that shit. Only the best tailors in Minas Morgul for the Witch-King.

>> No.30259427

Melkor was made to be evil by Eru. It was to bring contrast of 'good and evil' to the theme.

>> No.30259449


Except Sauron died at the end of the Last Alliance Battle. Any body he had in LotR would be a new one. Why would he still be missing a finger?

Gollum never even says he saw or met Sauron. He just mentions Sauron's nine-fingered hand; maybe he was repeating some scrap of history he'd picked up somewhere. After all, he knew about the battle that created the Dead Marshes.

>> No.30259472

>Why would he still be missing a finger?
cause it was cut off and shapeshifting sometimes works that way

>> No.30259488

>shapeshifting sometimes works that way

So, you have no explanation?

>> No.30259489

>Why would he still be missing a finger?
Because he's broken and lacks the Ring. His abilities to shapeshift deteriorate, like how after the fall of Nûmenor he couldn't take a fair form again.

>> No.30259536

His abilities to shapeshift diminish at each defeat. After Nûmenor, he couldn't take a fair guise again.

>> No.30259567

Oh. I thought that was supposed to be a literally female version of Sauron, rather than an effeminate version of Sauron.

>> No.30259570


I'm not sure I'd take Gollum at his word on anything.

>> No.30259571

Even then, shapeshifting didn't actually heal/regerate. When Huan defeated Sauron by biting his neck and Sauron surrendered/fled and transformed into a vampire, he still was bleeding from the neck.

>> No.30259582


you thought wrong.

>> No.30259587

Nor would I, but that's the only reference to Sauron's physical form which really is in the text. There's not any line which indicates he's still formless.

>> No.30259650


I'm not saying he was; I'm saying that in the text Tolkien left it fairly ambiguous. Gollum as an unreliable narrator who never actually saw Sauron, and the unexplained still-missing finger, is a part of that.

It's clear from his letters that Sauron had a body, but in LotR proper it's vague and mysterious, an effect amplified by Sauron only appearing in weird visions and telepathic communications.

It's not that surprising somebody might assume he didn't have a body as a result.

>> No.30259753

I guess I can see how you'd get the impression, even if I never did.

>> No.30259842


>> No.30259857


Tolkien never gives any such explanation, or even hints at it.

>> No.30259889

not everything is explicitly explained

>> No.30259897

it's AN explanation, not THE explanation.

>> No.30259908


Then it's pure head canon.

>> No.30259933

do you understand what 'ambiguous' means

>> No.30259936

link pls

>> No.30259940

Oh for fucks sake. Here come these guys to shit up the thread. Every fucking time.

>> No.30259944

The Devil being an assigned rather than assumed role is more Jewish than Catholic, though. Satan being not-evil but simply playing the role of Adversary by God's decree is a Jewish concept, not a Christian one.

>> No.30259978

Believes in unity, equality, order, peace.

He had the only multiracial army in Middle Earth. Twice.

>> No.30259995


It's not explicitly told. My imagining could be just as wrong as yours.

>> No.30260006


Ambiguity would be implying something, but not really explaining if it's true or not. That's not what's going on here. Tolkien just has Gollum offhandedly mention Sauron has nine fingers and gives no further information.

There's nothing there that suggests morphic resonance, or any similar concept. Gollum doesn't even say that he actually saw Sauron.

>> No.30260009

>He was just waiting for Morgoth to come back when the sounds of orcs and the fellowship caught his attention.

Not entirely correct. What got his attention was the dwarves digging to deep in their greed for gold, ultimately awakening that specific Balrog that is called Durin's bane for a reason.

>> No.30260044

Yes and dwarves are (at least partially) nordic mythology with jewish culture. Your point being?

>> No.30260093

>Sauron [...] did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it.
So, he was a libertarian? That's a good quality.

>> No.30260102


Don't forget their weirdly Buddhist belief in the reincarnations of Durin.

>> No.30260126

At first Sauron was a nameless good-guy angel Maiar of Aule, the creator of all crafts. He certainly had positive qualities then. But they probably dwindled away to nothing as he became more paranoid and evil.

>> No.30260228

Two nonsensical statements after another. That takes some skill.

>> No.30260284

Thank you; Sauron & Morgoth were excellent teachers in such things.

>> No.30260287

Well of course. He did a low level run by acquiring certain powerful artifacts of concealment (such as the cloaks from Lorien) - which he's already good in since he's a halfling. He was so critically underleveled when he managed to help get the ring destroyed that the DM gave him extra XP.

>> No.30260532

>he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.
So then why the fuck would you use ORCS??

>> No.30260541

What the fuck else are you going to use?

>> No.30260550


He used armies of humans and human servants as well. In fact, almost all of his high-level servants seems to be humans or ring wraiths. Orcs were just convenient cannon-fodder.

>> No.30260558

>Sauron will never bring order to Middle Earth and create an utopia for his subjects and is instead just a fleeting shadow through the world.

>> No.30260602


He wanted to use Elves, but they were smart enough to take off the rings he gave them. If they didn't, he would be ruling the elves. Three rings for the Elven-Kings, under the sky... One Ring to rule them all, etc. etc.

>> No.30260617


I'm not sure Sauron's vision of an orderly Middle-Earth was much of a utopia. It'd be the sort of future where we eat our own dead because that's more "efficient."

>> No.30260630

Didn't the dwarves just shove theirs in a hoard and forget about them or something?

>> No.30260648

Most of Sauron's human servants were Black Numenorians, already long corrupted and in the service of evil. Black here implies "dark, dark magic, evil", not skin tone or appearance.

>> No.30260667

>at the end of the world Sauron will fight, repent and be redeemed, and get to join all his long-estranged brothers and sisters and his de facto father in perpetual bliss and harmony

>> No.30260668

i believe dragons stole them, or ate the dwarves wearing them

>> No.30260676


No. The black numenoreans were very small in number. They bred with the harad and their numbers dwindled even further.

Sauron's greatest men servants are either the Haradrim of the Easterlings.

>> No.30260696

5 of the seven got eaten by dragons, nobody knows the whereabouts of the other two if I recall correctly.

>> No.30260716

Somewhere some way or another the impression was created in me that to be a very high ranking human commander in sauron's army you pretty much had to be a black numenorian. Perhaps its because the mouth of sauron was one.

>> No.30260739

The black numenorians became kings and lords of the lands. Can't remember which ones.

>> No.30260740


They are probably his mightiest human servants. Just the smallest in size. The mouth of Sauron's mouth was so devastated because he knew the black speech, essentially magic.

>> No.30260758


No. The dwarves continued wearing them. It turned out that dwarves could not be controlled by the rings. Instead they got really, really rich until their massive piles of gold attracted the dragons and the dragons melted the rings (only the One Ring was resistant to dragonfire), except for three which were recovered by Sauron.

>> No.30260768

>The mouth of Sauron's mouth was so devastated because he knew the black speech, essentially magic.
Wasn't that just a film innovation? Mind, a fucking cool one.

>> No.30260784

And it makes sense, too, which is a rarity in adaptations.

>> No.30260812


It's a movie one. But I think it makes sense, since mere mortals were never meant to carry too much power.

>> No.30260820

>dwarves are so autistic, magic doesn't even bind them

>> No.30260824

Sauron is basically the Emprah.

>> No.30260868

w8 m8

>> No.30260874

Black speech wasn't magical. It was used by Sauron and his captains and major liutenants. He tried to make everyone learn it but surprisingly, Orcs just took all languages around and made their own mixes. Mouth of Sauron was a sorcerer but it had nothing to do with black speech.

>> No.30260878

Especially if done by Peter Jackson

>Aragorn only gets Anduril shortly before he leaves for the paths of the dead
>Normal edition: Saruman doesn't die
>Extended edition: Saruman dies but on Orthanc
>Conquest of the Shire, which is like a quarter of The Return Of The King, never happens
>Army of the dead helps in the battle of the pelenor fields (in the book they only help taking back southern Gondor and piss off, instead Aragorn and pals come with forces of men from Dol Amrod and so on)

That said the battle scenes are great and give me goosebumps every time

>> No.30260885

It made the Dwarves really, really greedy.

>> No.30260897

40kid shoehorning his hobby everywhere, pls go.

>> No.30260902

The Kingdom of Arnor was pretty multi-racial.

>> No.30260917


Doesn't it cause discomfort?

>> No.30260935


Saruman does die. He's stabbed by worm-tongue

>> No.30260936

Would reading mein kampf to rescued jews cause discomfort?

>> No.30260944

>implying he's a 40k player

You mean he's a fucking D&D cunt mad about the Knights getting more attention on /tg/ today than his thread about "elf sluts what do".

>> No.30260951

>only the One Ring was resistant to dragonfire
Only it was not. There were just no dragons left for it to get destroyed that way. At least that's what I remember from the books.

But they didn't take them of.

>> No.30260961

that's extended edition

>> No.30260967

Yes, but not on Orthanc. He dies in the shire, when the halflings drive him out and he treats Grima like a pile of dogshit while leaving.

>> No.30261025


You misremember; there were still dragons around, Tolkien even specified that in a latter. Gandalf says that the lesser rings could be destroyed by dragonfire, but the One Ring probably could not even be damaged by the fires of Ancalagon the Black, the biggest dragon that ever lived.

>> No.30261035

This. The Rings didn't corrupt the Dwarves the way, the ones given to humans did, but they sure corrupted them. Making them greedy and isolationist assholes and ultimately leading to their demise.

>> No.30261065


>the one ring isn't resistant to dragonfire
>bilbo finds ring in gollum's cave
>Thorin's party gets to erebor
>bilbo goes into mountain
>tries to steal Smoug's hoard
>gets roasted alive
>somewhere, Sauron dies of a heart attack

Heh. Imagine that.

>> No.30261109

Might be. I'm not sure though. Can you quote or give me the page number? I really thought I remembered something along those lines.

>> No.30261170

>Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This Ring has already passed through it unscathed, and even unheated. But there is no smith's forge in this Shire that could change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself.

- FotR

>Some stray answers. Dragons. They had not stopped; since they were active in far later times, close to our own. Have I said anything to suggest the final ending of dragons? If so it should be altered. The only passage I can think of is Vol. I p. 70 : 'there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough'. But that implies, I think, that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature.

- The Letters of JRR Tolkien

Dragons were still around, but dragonfire could never harm the one ring anyway.

>> No.30261249

Ah right I only remembered the first part

>It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough

My bad.

>> No.30261250

he made the Nazgul, who are ballin

>> No.30261364

My copy says page 94, but its from 1974, so it might be off by one or two.

>> No.30261484

Thank you. I have copies of various age lying around here. Also all in German translation. But I guess it should be around the same spot. Jep, page 82 here, found it.

>> No.30261491

Eh, I understand why Conquest of the Shire wasn't added in. It would be a really weird section of the film, right after the massive climax that three films have been building to, suddenly Saruman is back and the Shire goes to war? It even felt out of place in the books, in my opinion.

>> No.30261517

Was the mouth of Sauron supposed to be one of Numenor? I kind of wonder what other servants left over from previous wars were skulking around in the background of the war of the Ring that we never see, like the two blue wizards.

>> No.30261518

Haha, I can't wait for the fan edits of that to appear on youtube. I might do it myself.

>> No.30261529

Well yeah, I can see your reasoning. It doesn't quite let the dramatic curve drop the usual way. Nevertheless I found it nice.

>> No.30261544

The blue wizards supposedly helped to cause riots against Sauron among the Easterlings. I recall Tolkien mentioning that they had as big part in the whole war as Gandalf.

>> No.30261560

>muh realistic and practical armor
Go back to your LARP thread, you filth slav.

>> No.30261607

Y'know, Maiar have no real gender. Just saying, a dark lady wouldn't be too much of a stretch.


>> No.30261654

>Coming This Summer!
>Lord of the Rings Episode 1.5!
>Featuring never before seen characters: Alatar and Pallando!
>See what happens in the east while the Fellowship travelled Middle Earth
>Directly from the mind of Peter Jackson, director or The Lord of the Rings trilogy and writer and director of The Hobbit trilogy.
>With guest appearance from Orlando Bloom as Legolas
>Plus: Meet Alroth! The Newest
>Most Badass elf.

June 2017.

>> No.30261692

the sad part is, this could actually happen.

>> No.30261693

Maiar don't have biological sex, they totally have gender otherwise some of them wouldn't have paired up with each other in marriages 5 minutes after entering Arda from the Timeless Halls.

>> No.30261725

Seeing as Peter Jackson is the new George Lucas, I agree.

>> No.30261746

IIRC only Melian married. Vast majority of the Maiar never took any physical form, though they did have sex/gender when they did take the form. You're thinking of Valar.

>> No.30261756

Anon, please don't give him ideas.

>> No.30261801

Valar and Maiar are the same species of being called Ainur.

It's just a difference of degree of strength.

>> No.30261845

I mean, I liked the movie just as much as I liked the books. They're fiiiiine.

>> No.30261856

It's still erroneus to say "otherwise some of them wouldn't have paired up with each other in marriages 5 minutes after entering Arda from the Timeless Halls." While they are very similar beings, Maiar are without exception of lesser degree than the Valar.

>> No.30261896

Ainur have gender, but they only have sexy organs if they want to. Whether Maiar or Valar, they have gender.

That's not a controversial statement.

>> No.30261926

My point was that >>30261693 claimed Maiar getting married to each others, which they didn't.

>> No.30261939

Power level wise, who's stronger, Galadriel or Saruman? Galadriel or Gandalf the Grey?

I always thought it was the wizards, but Galadriel is such a rude arrogant bitch (typical elf) to both of them in The Hobbit movie that it made me wonder.

>> No.30261954

Well, Ossë and Uinen did.

>> No.30261986

Was the thread archived on suptg or is it just on the foolrulez archive?

>> No.30261987

So what would happen if a Maia were to create offspring with a mortal, if they even can?

>> No.30262000

Well at that point it's a lot like good Orcs and what went on in Far Rhun. We know it's possible for the thing to happen, and that stuff did go on, but the point of the books wasn't focused there.

Valar were the movers and shakers in the Ainulindalie, they got married, Valar and Maiar are of the same type of being, Ainur, thus Maiar marrying among themselves is probable.

>> No.30262016

well Luthien was the daughter of Thingol and Melien. Luthien then had a child with Beren I believe, so not too big of a deal?

>> No.30262018


They did. That's where dragons came from.

>> No.30262021

Luthien happens you fool.
Eru damn it, do you not read the books?

>> No.30262053


>> No.30262111

>implying Sauron would be left-handed

>> No.30262135

Of course he's left-handed, do you even sinister?

>> No.30262139

Gil-Galad who was stronger was killed by Full-power Sauron. I'd imagine Galadriel would be slightly lower than Saruman of many colors or Gandalf the White but pretty on par with Gandalf the Grey.

>> No.30262162

Shut up.

>> No.30262236

Fuck off, linguistics and etymology are fun. This is a Tolkien thread after all.

>> No.30262290

So Gandalf was stronger than Sauron, apparently?

>> No.30262365

You get master race

>> No.30262404


Technically, it couldn't. Jackson only has the rights to The LotR and The Hobbit. He can't adapt stuff from elsewhere, and Alatar and Pallando's names are only given in other books.

>> No.30262411

gr8 b8 m8 i r8 it 8/8

>> No.30262444

...different dragons?

>> No.30262451

Gandalf and Sauron are pretty equal, cosmologically, as they are both Maiar (ainur who came to Ea to serve the Vala, essentially angels). The difference is, Sauron came to mess about and put all his power in the rings as part of a plot that I won't go into (see >>30257347 and >>30257936), whereas Gandalf was entrusted to guide the people of Middle-Earth away from Sauron's infuence and couldn't use his full power to simply subjugate or force them (like Saruman), only his wisdom.

>> No.30262534


Nope. Gandalf, back when he was Olorin and had his full power as a maia, didn't want to even go to Middle-earth because he was afraid of Sauron's strength. As Gandalf the White, he at one point refers to himself, as an individual, as the most dangerous being on Middle-Earth, except for Sauron. In a straight up fight, Sauron would murder Gandalf.

>> No.30262564


Presumably. The dwarves used to have multiple kingdoms in the northern mountains, until they were overrun by dragons and orcs. That's probably where those five rings were lost.

>> No.30262620

them both being Maiar doesnt say much. I mean, Gothmog was a Maiar, and so was the Balrog in Moria, but you dont see anybody compairing THEM in strength

>> No.30262672

Maiar are said to be of different power.

>> No.30262680


Truth be told, Durin's Bane was harder to kill. Gothmog got headbutted to death.

>> No.30262738

That's true, I should have specified. They're in the same "bracket" you could say, between Vala and the children. But yeah, there's a huge gulf in power between things within brackets, including (especially?) Maia.

>> No.30262790

falling in a lake and being chased by a castrated Maiar up a mountain isnt exactly "hard to kill".

Gothmog essentially kicking Ecthelions ass before being downed should say a bit about how "easy" he was to kill

>> No.30262801


Yes, Gollum mentions that he has is missing one of his fingers when he tells Gandalf about how he (sauron) tortured Gollum in Barad Dur.

>> No.30262857


Gothmog and Ecthelion didn't really fight, though. Ecthelion was already wounded, and had lost his sword. he charged Gothmog, you wounded his arm and lashed away his shield, and then Ecthelion rammed his-helmet spike into Gothmog's gun and they fell in a lake.

Meanwhile, Durin's Bane fought a running battle that lasted days, falling thousands of feet down a subterranean chasm, into a lake, then fighting his opponent all the way back up to the top of a mountain from BELOW that mountain, and then had a giant magical duel on the peak which ended with part of the mountain being destroyed.

>> No.30262875


Well you have to keep in mind that Ecthelion just got done Kung-Fu-ing 3 other Balrogs to death before Gothmog even showed up.

By the time Gothmog got to him, Ecthelion had alraedy lost the use of his shield arm, and Gothmog took out the sword-arm.

>> No.30262885


Except Gollum wouldn't know about Sauron's history, so when he says he has only four fingers on his black hand, we can take this as a good clue that Gollum actually met Sauron himself. Its not a detail Gollum would know to make up.

>> No.30262932

They fell into Durin's Pit and Gandalf followed the Balrog up a tunnel to the top of the mountain they were going through. It wasn't a mountain under a mountain, it was a regular mountaintop.

>> No.30262943

>LotR lore freaks going full autism debate mode

I love you guys.

Anyway, so let's put the War of the Rings on our Earthly timeline.

I guess the War of the Rings would end up around the end of the "dark ages'.

So what would the Renaissance look like in Middle-Earth?

Personally, I'd guess that Gondor and Mordor would grow to become the main powers on Middle-Earth.

>> No.30262946

didnt Gothog wound him and cast aside his sword? I seem to remember something to that effect.

And crushing a mountain is cinematic and all, but you will admit that gandalf the grey was a shadow of a Maiar and still defeated the unnamed Balrog. (inb4 but he had water, so had Ecthelion)

>> No.30262993

He made orcs.

>> No.30262996


I didn't say there was a mountain on top of a mountain. I sad they fought from BENEATH that mountain to the TOP of that mountain. Roots to peak.

>> No.30263021


I think that speaks more to Gandalf's power even with his limitations then it does to any weakness in the balrog.

>> No.30263050


LotR IS in our Earthly timeline. Tolkien didn't view it as an alternate universe, he viewed it as a barely remembered epoch of our distant past. It's supposed to be the mythic past.

>> No.30263058

Gandalf did have one of the Elven rings though which may have made him regenerate his fea to help with the fight.

>> No.30263072

which would still support my point: Maiar doesnt equal Maiar. You cant say Gandalf is as good as Sauron since both are Maiar.

>> No.30263089

Can anyone explain to me what the fuck happened underneath the mountain?

I vaguely remember something beneath in the darkness scaring the fuck out of Gandalf and the Balrog, and IIRC they even helped each other out getting away from the darkness or something.

Can anyone explain to me what happened there?

>> No.30263094


I don't think you can "regenerate" fea. Fea is your spirit, your soul. You can diminish it, but not increase it. Even if you could, I don't think that's what Narya did.

>> No.30263101

Well, Middle-Earth is just a previously undiscovered prehistory for our own Earth. It's the story of England's creation (or at least, an English creation myth).

That said, the primary cultures of the War of the Ring (Rohan and Gondor) are analogous to our Anglo-Saxons. The Renaissance wouldn't happen for several centuries, technologically-speaking.

If Aragorn and his dynasty could successfully steward the Reunited Kingdom, they would certainly be a major regional power. Mordor is barely inhabited, the only people living there are former slaves.

>> No.30263109

I really love those hints at Atlantis and Avalon regarding Numenor in the Silmarillion.

>> No.30263112

>I vaguely remember something beneath in the darkness scaring the fuck out of Gandalf and the Balrog, and IIRC they even helped each other out getting away from the darkness or something.

They didn''t help each other, Gandalf just says there are things down there that even Sauron doesn't know about

>> No.30263118


I'm not the guy that was arguing that. Gandalf, even with his full power would be considerably weaker than Sauron.

>> No.30263121


Sauron was like many tyrants: they have a rationale and genuinely believe they're justified, though by his later days Sauron seems to have become a highly twisted thing driven by hate and vengeance as much as anything else.

It's not really all that morally ambiguous, but it's certainly not the LOL EVULZ view taken by some anons here.

>> No.30263127


Galadriel is incredibly ancient and powerful, but Saruman the White was the strongest of those three,and Gandalf the most likely to win any conflict because of plot.

>> No.30263140

>In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit.*

>*Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order.

From Tolkien's letters.

>> No.30263147


The fall down into the lake, fight some more, and the balrog escapes. Gandalf pursues, sees strange, unnamed horrible things he doesn't want to talk about. He tracks down the balrog, and they fight their way up the Winding Stairs to the peak of Zirak Zigil.

>> No.30263164


And it looks like Christopher Tolkien is not a fan of his films, so no more will be made. Thank the gods!

>> No.30263165

thats my whole point though. Although i still think that Gothmog as "the mightiest under the Balrogs" cant be compared to Durin's bane, but I only used that as an example

>> No.30263208

He still held on to his stubborn defiance to the very end, rising out from Barad-Dur to confront his enemies even as his Kingdom crumbled around him.

>> No.30263222


Most likely epoch is before the last Ice Age, which would explain the changes in land and the lack of any archeology. So, say 40,000 years ago?

>> No.30263224


>tfw no Beren and Luthien movie

>> No.30263237

>22 pages into a full length movie

>> No.30263240


Daily reminder that the most "powerful" being in creation almost got punked by a spider and had to cry like a bitch for his balrogs to save him

>> No.30263241


No, Melkor did. Sauron arguably improved them, tho.

>> No.30263266

they made the Hobbit into three movies dude.

its not a stretch

>> No.30263271


Oh, I understand. I'm just saying that, despite all his might, Gothmog kinda went out like a bitch.

>> No.30263274


Thank god. Can you imagine what Hackson would do to it? I shudder to even think of it.

>> No.30263292


It was a big spider.

>> No.30263298


>Implying it couldn't easily be done.

More than enough shit happens to turn it into a movie.

The primary problem is that there's virtually no dialogue written to draw from.


Can't we just have someone that isn't Hackson do it?

Why didn't Del Toro direct The Hobbit anyway?

>> No.30263328


>> No.30263330

Yeah, again, having somebody going kamikaze on your ass, impaling you and chucking you into a magic fucking pond of the element that is most opposed to your life force is less cinematic than fighting your way up a mountain for a few days but still a lot of fucking shit to survive.

>> No.30263346


>> No.30263348


He was doing something else. God that was a shame, he could have done something magnificent with it.

The problem is,99% of directors are idiots. You'd need someone who has the love of the source like Hackson, but who isn't a stupid fat gnome like Hackson.

>> No.30263414


How would the US military fare against the elves and valar (assume it was the us military in place of the numenoreans)?

>> No.30263417

It's a myth. It happened in the old age. When kings were still kings and there were still righteous men and decent women and people knew their place in the world. It happened sometime before your great great grandfather was born and even his father only heard the stories. To place it in a fixed historical context is missing the point. It's like those morons trying to find Avalon or Camelot or the Nibelung's treasure.

>> No.30263435


>> No.30263449


Del Toro went down there and did pre-production four two years, putting all his other projects on hold. However, due to problems with the rights, the collapse of Newline, and labor disputes in New Zealand, production was stretching out indefinitely; nobody knew when they could be able to shoot.

Del Toro had spent two years away from his family and not working on any of his other projects. He eventually had enough of this bullshit and went home.

Even then, Peter Jackson didn't want to do the movies. Warner Bros (who got the rights after Newline croaked) threatened to give the property to Brett Ratner, and then suddenly Jackson decided to play ball. I'm sure that was a coincidence, just like I'm sure the last minute decision to split two movies into three movies and cram in a love triangle weren't decisions made by WB and not Jackson.

>> No.30263455


>> No.30263471

Is there no art of balrogs smiting the shit out of her?

>> No.30263486

Wasn't Ungoliant basically Spider-Azathoth?

I remember someone talking about how the things that Gandalf sees in the depths of Moria, Tom Bombadil and Ungoliant are all from before the Creation of Middle-Earth.

And if they're not part of Creation, then really it doesn't matter if Morgoth was the strongest being in creation, because the things near the core of Middle-Earth, Ungolianth and Tom Bombadil aren't counted as part of Creation.

>> No.30263491

I've always pictured the Third-Fourth Ages as more of a Prehistory, the typical 'Golden Age' of Human Civilization, if you will. Then an Ice Age comes and wipes the slate clean, leaving Men to rebuild. Again.

>> No.30263494


This needs to be a thing. Along with a picture of Tulkas doing the orbital elbow drop on Morgoth.

>> No.30263495


>in place of the numenoreans

The exact same thing would have happened.

There wasn't actually any fighting at all.

The second they landed on the shores of Aman, the Valar picked up the phone and called God, who immediately took all the Numenoreans and trapped them in a cave forever.

>> No.30263522

isnt Ungoliant just a result of Morgoth's discord in the song of creation or something unexciting like that?

>> No.30263534


There's a lot of really cool moments that we don't have any fanart of.

>> No.30263539


>Brett Ratner


No fucking way.

I can't believe that Jackson fell for such an obvious bluff.

Warner Bros is pretty stupid, but they're not THAT stupid.

>> No.30263544


Yes, but the modern army has over the horizon missiles and shore bombardment capabilities. They wouldn't have had to land.

>> No.30263556


Fuck yeah Tulkas.

>> No.30263566

read more

>> No.30263567


>They wouldn't have had to land.

Yes they would

The point wasn't to fucking kill the Elves and Valar, the point was to go and live in the Undying Lands so they could have immortality.

>> No.30263579

>tulkas falcon punches melkor with that fist

Fuck year

>> No.30263599

But they did: http://www.avclub.com/article/mgm-and-warner-bros-threaten-to-put-brett-ratner-o-42146

Ratner routinely makes money, even if his movies are horrible. And at the time, WB had just finished up both the Harry Potter movies and the Batman movies, and their first attempt to expand their comic book property movies (Green Lantern) had flopped hard.

If Jackson wouldn't play ball, they probably would have stretched it out to as many movies as possible, and given it all to Ratner.

>> No.30263611

I don't really see how over the horizon missiles are going to help you bombard a country situated on a part of the globe that's dimensionally folded away from the rest?

I mean, the elven lands are flat. Middle-Earth is round.

The elven lands are literally in another dimension. Because you need to turn Middle-Earth from an orb to a flat world before you can sail to the elven lands.

>> No.30263625

>I don't really see how over the horizon missiles are going to help you bombard a country situated on a part of the globe that's dimensionally folded away from the rest?

It wasn't folded away until after you fool

>> No.30263647


You're misremembering.

Aman wasn't removed from the circles of the world until AFTER the Numenoreans attempted to invade and the Valar laid down their Ban.

>> No.30263691


Which they would still do, be it Americans or Numenoreans.

>> No.30263736


I don't think trying to pick a long distance fight with people who destroy continents when they go to war, and send these things out as WARNINGS is a very good idea.

>> No.30263759


Never implied anything else m8.

But, going by the wording of the Ban of the Valar at least, they wouldn't actually remove it until the Americans attempted to get there.

So they'd be perfectly able to shoot missiles at it.

>> No.30263776

[Weather Control Device ready]

>> No.30263813

better get that iron curtain ready

>> No.30263835


I don't think either the Valar or Eru are going to quibble about semantics. If having Valinor being a part of the material world proves to be an issue, they will remove it and fuck up anybody who messed with it.

>> No.30263859


Well obviously.

But the issue here was being able to aim the missiles in the the first place, not what the resulting consequences would be.

>> No.30263934

Okay, yeah. You're right.

They'll aim the missiles... and then the missiles will plunk in the ocean as the elven lands dimensionally shift away from Middle-Earth.

>> No.30263999


And then the oceans will probably swallow whoever fired the things.

>> No.30264083

Meh, I like to think that Tulkas blows up all the Americans in one go.

WWF style.

>general, there's a naked man falling out of the sky straight for our position!
>what the fuck is he doing?
>a corkscrew elbow drop, general...

>> No.30264671

>If Jackson wouldn't play ball, they probably would have stretched it out to as many movies as possible, and given it all to Ratner.
So they basically took something Jackson loved and threatened to hand it over to that hack Ratner if he didn't make more movies?
That is fucking low.

>> No.30264722


And then, after he agreed, they started changing more shit. Like, the woman playing Tauriel said she signed with the understanding that there'd be no shitty love triangle plot, but then after the decision to split the two planned movies into three, they came back to her and said the studio really wanted a love triangle.

>> No.30264961

I think orcs are totally subjugated though, he says a thing like that about the great war against Sauron meaning dwarfs fought for him as well but orcs are as likely as giant spiders or trolls to fight for good.

>> No.30265480

What a *great* fictional alternate history backstory this would be for a RPG/MMO set in Middle Earth....

>> No.30265639

It refers to the fact that Humans (and dwarves) were at both sides. Also, plural of Dwarf is Dwarves when talking about Tolkien's stuff.

>> No.30266529

Even from an unrealistic and impractical standpoint, it's not very cool looking. It's like that nice suit of armor had a child with a bobblehead wearing the the Legion of Doom shoulder pads.

>> No.30266722

>Avalon or Camelot or the Nibelung's treasure isn't worth finding because to place it in a fixed historical context is missing the point.
Sometimes I don't know what's wrong with you people...

>> No.30267447

I think he was pretty conflicted about it, but ultimately gave in to avoid using an obsolete form in favor of one that would sound better.
>According to Tolkien, the "real 'historical'" plural of dwarf is dwarrows or dwerrows. He once referred to dwarves as "a piece of private bad grammar" (Letters, 17), but in Appendix F to The Lord of the Rings he explains that if we still spoke of dwarves regularly, English might have retained a special plural for the word dwarf as with man. The form dwarrow only appears in the word Dwarrowdelf, a name for Moria. Tolkien used Dwarves, instead, which corresponds with Elf and Elves, making its meaning more apparent. The use of a different term also serves to set Tolkien's Dwarves apart from the similarly-named creatures in mythology and fairy-tales.

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