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[ERROR] No.30118651 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]


>autocannon havocs are not good and suck dick at everything, they are medicore behind an ADL and there are much better options for AA/light AT in the CSM book, I have mathhammered this several times

>plasma pistols are actually worth it, on one (suboptimal unit) in the CSM codex, khorne berzerkers

I just finished writing a goddamn essay on the plasma pistol thing and posted it on dakka, if you follow this link prepare your anus for a wall of text and autism:


>> No.30118660

AC Havocs AREN'T good.

Plasma pistols aren't either. Even on Berserkers.

>> No.30118681

>x15 Khorne Berzerkers, x2 plasma pistols: 325 points. You should be already near an enemy so IoW not a requirement, we're trying to keep points down here.
>we're trying to keep points down here
>325 points for 15 MEQ on foot

You've already failed.

>> No.30118703


read the plasma thread if you're gonna talk shit fagets

given the strict scenario I gave which you should be able to pull off more times than not, those zerkers will kill a unit of equal points cost and demolish anything else

>> No.30118716

>quotes a line from the thread
>gets told to read the thread

No, faggot. YOU need to fucking realize your shit scenario is still shit.

>> No.30118732

>AC Havocs AREN'T good.

try telling that to any CSM player on this board

>> No.30118737


Yeah that's why CSM list spamming zerkers are winning tournam-

Are winning local-

Are winning friendly-

Are being play-


>> No.30118749

but it's not, and until you explain otherwise I will refuse to believe you

>> No.30118763

I never said they were good, I said *IF* you're going to bother playing with the suboptimal pieces of shit that are berzerkers, this is the best way to do it

>> No.30118774

Pauldrons suck.

>> No.30118793

orkz are OP as fuck. this is not a joke

>> No.30118798


Plasma pistols, berserkers, and berserkers with plasma pistols aren't good. And until you explain otherwise I will refuse to believe you.

"They have a lot of attacks and will kill a couple marines, maybe" isn't an explanation.

I'm sure there's a best way to run Mandrakes and Flayed Ones. Doesn't make them any less shit.

>> No.30118808




It's like saying getting AIDs is worth it so long as you're being raped by a huge Mexican transvestite, because at least it's not a nigger.

>> No.30118840

I play Tau, but I use humans as my infantry because I think blue flatheads with hoofs are ugly.

>> No.30118849

>>plasma pistols are actually worth it, on one (suboptimal unit) in the CSM codex, khorne berzerkers

That just proves berserkers are so terrible their best wargear is the worst option in the armory. It doesn't prove plasma pistols are good.

>> No.30118858

>AC Havocs AREN'T good.

I don't care. They look cool as fuck compared to Obliterators.

>> No.30118864

I have a counterpoint

Plasma pistols are fucking cool

>> No.30118867

I had one guy say that the Imperial Guard does not fit in with the lore because they are to weak.

>> No.30118877


But those are legion ACs, not Chaos Havoc ACs.

>> No.30118888


How can plasma pistols be cool if they Get Hot!

>> No.30118899

they kill more than a few marines, they put squads of 15 marines in unwinnable CC and even if said marines have special weapons and do pretty well during overwatch, AND have FnP, they are still fucked. they absolutely destroy squads of MEQ of 10 or less. again, I explained this in the thread and gave the numbers. if you want to see actual fucking calculations then you are just bad at arithmetic, do them yourself in like 30 seconds

and in the end they are still a suboptimal unit, yes, but they do actually kill shit, they just cost too much

again, I never said they were good. I said that's the best way to run them, and they are not nearly as bad as flayed ones, etc

>> No.30118900

I refuse to know that those metal/finecast kits ever existed.

>> No.30118910

the biggest issue is this squad has doubled its cost because it is being used to babysit a lord AND need Huron to even work.

fuck if you are going to do shit like this just give the MoK to 32 cultists and throw Kharn in it.

>> No.30118957

well they kind of don't. I mean, in battles full of radioactive weapons that explode every five seconds, bombs that take out buildings flying fucking everywhere all the time, giant mutant bugs that can kill you with their mind, mushroom aliens that can still fight with their heads cut off, etc, where the fuck does a dude with a flak jacket and bible stand a chance? most of their weapons and shit are WW2 inspired and they still use slugs, etc

>> No.30118972


Your fucking scenarios are retarded. What the fuck are you playing against, Horus Heresy? Nobody runs MEQ over 10, or even can except BT and CSM.

>> No.30118989


Newsflash, anything that's not WS1 BS1 kills shit.

Trying to argue best case scenarios of the worst possible case scenarios proves NOTHING. The fact that people have said this half a dozen time and you still can't fathom it tells me you know you're wrong you just want to be right in an argument for whatever reason.

>> No.30119004

as I mentioned, you really have to tailor your whole army for this to work, but it can work in casual games if you have the right setup, I have done similar lists in the past and beaten tau, eldar, etc that didn't spam cheese and with a little luck, although I didn't even have plasma pistols

something like 1500 points of


zerkers with plasma pistols
plague marines in a rhino

3 combi preds

allied daemons with slaanesh herald and two blobs of daemonettes

other shit as needed

>> No.30119027

Mah Nigga

Love my boyz W/ dread Mob allies

>> No.30119037

How would they shoot down flyers when they're holding the autocannons near their knees like that? They'd need to lie on their backs to make them point that high.

>> No.30119039


Putting plasma pistols randomly also "works". Not taking plasma pistols or using your strategy "works" even better. I'm not seeing your point.

>> No.30119056


Shoot the flyer before its overhead. You have an easier time hitting them when they are flying towards you from the distance anyway, since then they can only dodge left or right and you don't have to lead your shots.

>> No.30119069

They got better tech then the orks and they've still won more battles then the fucking eldar.

Anyway the guy in question played smirfs, so there you go.

>> No.30119071

well there you go. you mulch most MEQ or lock them up at worst. and you destroy hordes with volume of attacks these guys can be used for midfield shenanigans. I'm not saying they're good, I'm saying they meh, and not as completely horrible as /tg/ claims IN CASUAL GAMES. of course against taudar spam this shit gets raped. again, I mathhammer all of this and it's really not that bad, if you want to pull out some numbers to contradict the numbers I posted on dakka, I'm waiting

the fact that I have explained why my scenario is pretty broad several times and you still can't fathom it, makes me not fathom wot ur on about m8

>> No.30119114


If you have to fucking mention this at all your argument is already fucking retarded and doesn't need to be posted.

>> No.30119130


I feed you 50-75 point squads all game long for you to "mulch" and have spent less/equal points to completely negate your shit unit. Less, actually, since you can't reach me or charge until turn 2-3.

>> No.30119148

no, because you are under the impression that there are only two tiers of play: WAAC or "shitty casual"

actually, there's a big difference against most players who just play fun games but still try to win while having fun, and then there are people who play complete shit like flayed ones for purely fluff reasons and lose all the time. my scenario applies to the former, which is the type of player I am. "top tier casuals", I guess

>> No.30119157


No, because you don't realize that "IN CASUAL GAMES" is subjective as fuck and can be used as a justification for ANYTHING. Including ignoring rules and rolling D3 for everything.

>> No.30119164

>didn't read that I mitigate this with the other parts of my army, the same way MSU competitive CSM lists do, with the exception of my two marine squads
>didn't read that I infiltrate

wait, can you read or is somebody typing this for you?

>> No.30119173


Just shut the fuck up and take a Heldrake. Half the points for ten times the usefulness and one is okay for casual play.

>> No.30119185

again, I explained the subjectivity of these games in the very post you are responding to in the second and third sentences

>having to repeat myself

>> No.30119188

>building his whole list around his shit tactic, including a warlord and second HQ escort
>talking down on bone kingdom armies

You're so clueless. You are even worse because at least the guy spamming Flayed Ones has style points going for him.

>> No.30119200


If your argument is "everyone, tell me berserkers and plasma pistols are acceptable!" you're going to have to repeat yourself a fucking lot if you're not going to realize you're retarded and just fuck off.

>> No.30119207

>unit costs twice as much as a heldrake
>does more than twice the damage, and faster

who would have thought

>> No.30119210

and yet as your self proclaimed "top tier casual" your shit unit is still shit and only works in a sub optimal way against a unit worth less than half its points and only when all the planets align.


and fuck your unit only becomes worse when compared to non meq units.

>> No.30119214


Berzerkers in a Spartan without plasma pistols

Hey look I already made something better than your strategy without being min/max tryhard.

I don't even know why you're using that as an argument. "This unit is good if you don't try to win or be efficient!"

>> No.30119226

>non fleet non jet non jump infantry on foot are faster than a zooming flyer

Now i know why you're so wrong about everything, you think the larger a number is, the lower the value it represents!

>> No.30119235

well luckily I never said that, so your point is moot

1) the chaos lord isn't even strictly necessary, the unit just won't be scoring. you can save points by just giving your champion a weapon, then take cultists for more scoring

2) this "shit tactic" will destroy many casuals who don't even bother calculating their unit's effectiveness and just take what they think is good because the internet said so. see: autocannon havocs. I have won many times with suboptimal units because in a game of suboptimal units, my units are optimal

>> No.30119242

>this entire thread premise
>that OP image
>all these arguments

>> No.30119254

>suboptimal units are optimal in games of suboptimal units
>this somehow makes my suboptimal units optimal

This logic doesn't work, and if that isn't your argument, you have zero reason to be posting this much.

>> No.30119256

I don't see why any salt is given to /tg/s collective knowledge on 40k. Literally everything I've read on 1d4chan is pants on head retarded benchracing nonsense. Controversial? Probably not but it's still an opinion. I read this forum to laugh at the arguments and squabbles of low confidence/low hygiene power gaming hyperfaggots who live vicariously through their fantasy board games

>> No.30119274

>hundreds of extra points for an AV14 rhino instead of another HQ and troops for less points


also, not everybody plays forgeworld so even if your shit idea worked it wouldn't always be allowed

these infiltrated zerkers kill an entire unit almost guaranteed on turn 1, then may proceed to do so next turn or at least absorb a lot of fire. your helturkey might not even come in until turn 3, turn 2 at the earliest

>> No.30119275


How can one be a power-gamer if he is terrible at gaming the system?

>> No.30119303

it makes my units optimal in suboptimal games, obviously. why the fuck would I take a list like this to a tournament?

>I come up with the best way to use suboptimal units
>I could easily just tweak netlists and do my own numbers to destroy anyone if I wanted
>I'm terrible at the system

/tg/ you make me smile

>> No.30119306

>these infiltrated zerkers kill an entire unit almost guaranteed on turn 1

50% of the time you won't be able to assault on first game turn if you don't win the roll/get passed second.

If playing against Coteaz you will pretty much never be able to pull it off turn 1.

If charging defensive grenades lol.

If infiltrating 12" lol getting around barriers.

If infiltrating 18" on foot lol at getting the charge.

>> No.30119319

>actually arguing berserkers are better than a Heldrake

0/10. Please don't be the same guy that was arguing that Bloodletters were the best troop in the Daemon codex or I'm going to have to kill a bitch.

>> No.30119329

>why the fuck would I take a list like this to a tournament?

You wouldn't, because you're fucking terrible.

>>I could easily just tweak netlists and do my own numbers to destroy anyone if I wanted
>>I'm terrible at the system

Prove them wrong. Because everything you've posted has proven you're terrible. Including "math somehow lets me destroy an entire unit turn 1 guaranteed no matter what with my berserkers using plasma pistols which are actually good!"

>> No.30119347


On one knee, braced against the ground, AKA the 'guitar solo' position.

>> No.30119354

yep so your getting them to infiltrate close enough to fire their guns and charge and you MUST make the charge because the planets aligned.

>GG rip tactical squad alpha your 170 points died valiantly.
>its a shame this squad will never reach another unit and the rest of your army is shit.

but the best part he shits on the bad armies that are bad because they are keeping a theme and his poor excuse of minmax is totes better because "top tier casual".

>> No.30119365

>search this faggot's post history on dakka
>he's the same guy that made that Cannibal Creed thread that got shat all over
>he hasn't even been playing the game that long

Boy, you shouldn't talk this much shit when you give easily traced evidence of your ignorance.

>> No.30119393

but I will usually go second, because most people play shooty armies


>defensive grenades
so tau will beat me. to the surprise of no one.

like? if you pick where you infiltrate and your follow standard terrain rules, you can easily make it to your opponent's deployment zone on a charge to hit a gunline, even easier if they leave theirs. yes, if they assault you it's somewhat bad news but I already explained how to mitigate this with the rest of your list. it doesn't always work, but neither does anything in this game

but why would I do that

>> No.30119405

fuck, you have discovered my troll, lel

yeah I'm fairly new. even then, I really do believe in some of these arguments and nobody is convincing me otherwise yet, lel

>> No.30119421

also how did my thread get shit all over

it was a 40k general, I got some pretty good feedback, there were a few haters who called me edgy but this is 4chan, I'd be surprised if somebody *didn't* go full reddit on me

>> No.30119425


Educate yourself before making retarded arguments with little to no information and knowledge behind them.

>> No.30119435

>there were a few haters who called me edgy

Judging from this thread they were right.

>> No.30119449



Can only speak for the UK scene but that old fart gets a lot of exercise.

Coteaz/Coteaz interactions are common enough that a good TO can rhyme the process off.

>> No.30119464

>not knowing what Coteaz, the single most taken HQ outside of the top 3 armies does
>thinking only Tau get defensive grenades when daemons, IG, and CSM WHICH IS YOUR OWN FUCKING GODDAMN ARMY get them

>> No.30119470

>make a thread being facetious but with good intentions, to have a debate and learn things
>/tg/ gets genuinely asshurt, looks up my history on another website and keeps feeding the nonsense even after they found me out

I don't know what I expected

anyway, this thread isn't just about the blood god, only like one other dude posted his "controversial opinion" and nobody else did because you guys just have to be right

>> No.30119484


Never once did you state or imply you were here to learn anything.

>implying you're ever going to admit you're fucking wrong to begin with

Just fuck off, seriously, this board has gotten worse for your presence. At least put a trip code on so I can stop stumbling into your shit threads.

>> No.30119494

I know CSM get grenades though

I haven't seen anybody play Coteaz at my FLGS before though

>> No.30119504

>because you guys just have to be right

Irony, thy name is "OP is a faggot".

>> No.30119515


If you don't know what he does then you don't know what he does. Stop pretending you aren't ignorant and full of shit with spotty knowledge of the game trying to argue against people who clearly know more about you. Even if they aren't necessarily right, at the very least they very clearly know more rules and have more information than you so can make a better judgment call.

>> No.30119521

I admitted I was wrong. Half the stuff I said ITT was bullshit, and /tg/ refuted it, and now I know more things (although I still think plasma pistols actually works on Berzerkers because I *do* actually do the math for this stuff)

I don't see how a 40k tactics/rules thread is worse than ELF QUEST: UNDERBOOB EDITION, all things considered. I rarely even post my own threads

>> No.30119530

>I admitted I was wrong
>despite nowhere in the thread stating that and only arguing with everyone
>in the same fucking breath and sentence I add in parenthesis that I'm still right

Fuck off, seriously.

>> No.30119532


Just delete the thread and start again, no good can come from the rampant faggotry so far.

>> No.30119539

you guys keep responding with angst when I already admitted I was mostly bullshitting for fun/to learn things. I know you guys know more than me, and admitted it, and said so in my other posts

*some* things I am right about and /tg/ is just retarded about (like the idea that AC havocs are good, and don't say that's not common on here because it is)

also, I am pretty drunk and argue a lot when I'm drunk

>> No.30119550

Here's a controversial opinion for you: OP isn't a humongous faggot.

>> No.30119555

fair point, I'm gay as fuck if traps count

>> No.30119562




Okay /tg/ , you are a stocky young elf with an overdeveloped chest and an inability to find shirts that fit right.

Today is the festival of Grandover, and you are running very, very late. It doesn't matter though, because the village is on fire.

Are you a boy or a girl?


> don't say that's not common on here because it is

It's really not that common.

>> No.30119582

I'm a gender neutral transethnic poly-elf

what the fuck is this, oppression quest?

>> No.30119588


To be fair, it used to be common. But that was nearly a year ago, when AC Havocs actually WERE good and Tau/Eldar didn't exist.

The only people who still have that opinion are just outdated or clueless retards anyway so it's pointless to harp on it. Just like the stupid plasma pistol thing.

>> No.30119610

This much damage control.

look buddy you are straight up wrong. I also want to see your maths because the 2 zerks firing the plasma pistols are unlikely to make their points back easily.

best case is one manages to take down a teq still only making a net gain of 1 point ignoring the other because then its a net loss of 38 points.

>> No.30119613

Because they can only get hot when they are used.

>> No.30119623


Not using your pistol is not very cool, Anonymous.

>> No.30119655

>damage control

incoming ambulance, get out of the way while it carries away my corpse

freal tho, my maths are pretty simple. 2 plasma shots are pretty much one dead MEQ, but if you calc the percentages from the bolt pistols in my scenario that makes another dead one, so you're typically getting back 13 points (bare bones CSM) to 20+ points (retarded who decked out his dudemans in gubbins. like one of my plasma pistol guys who cost 34 points each, lel)

against TEQ you take into account the invuln and nix the bolt pistol numbers so it's about one dead termi which is over the 30 points you need to get points back

>> No.30119663

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to blow on 'em,
Know when to fire and know when to run.
You never count your Zerkers when you're facing Tau' at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the Tau players won..

>> No.30119665

>the percentages from my bolt pistols

I meant leftover percentages added to plasma leftover percentages, to clarify

>> No.30119668


>oppression quest


You are on your YACHT. You are CHET CISHETERO, trust funded adventurer. You are on your way to loot and culturally appropriate the lost ruins of ATLANTIS, social justice paradise. You have a headache from your long history of taking COCAINE without consequence. Your exits are BACK, BELOW and OCEAN.

You currently have 118 privilege. Are you a Boy or What A Boy?


Conceded, feel you have summed it up nicely.

>> No.30119670


That's nice. Now try plugging in the numbers for all the ways to get shot to shit before you do anything.

>> No.30119676

My god. Just go ahead and shut the fuck up.

You can't seem to accept the fact that you're just a bad player and your analysis is just outright wrong

>> No.30119680

>You are on your YACHT. You are CHET CISHETERO

Good one, Chet!

>> No.30119689


muh zerkers
muh plasma pistols

check your privilege, min/max scum

>> No.30119704

contain your mad and proof me dawg, otherwise deuces

hold on motherfucker, I signed up for elf underboob quest

my shirt is too tight on this boat, is chet at least cute? uguu~

>> No.30119733


Average wounds caused by a single attack:

Frag: 0.313
Flamer: 1.00
Bolt pistol: 0.083

Flamer: 0.33
Bolt pistol: 0.027

Lightning Claw – Furious WS5: 0.58
Lightning Claw WS5: 0.495
Lightning Claw WS4: 0.375
Close Combat – Furious WS5: 0.144
Close Combat WS5: 0.109
Close combat WS4: 0.083

Leadership test for Counter-Assault. 0.84

10 Berzerkers – 215 points
Berzerker Champion has a Lightning Claw

12 Chaos Space Marines – 215 points
Close combat weapons instead of bolters, Mark of Khorne
Aspiring Champion has a Lightning Claw
2 flamers

#1 Scenario: Berzerkers assault CSM
Berzerkers fire and kill 1.06 CSM on average
CSM Overwatch kills 0.90 Berzerkers on average
Berzerker Champion causes 2.32 wounds
Berzerkers cause 4.67 wounds
Aspiring Champions causes 1.07 wounds
Chaos Space Marines cause 2.17 wounds

#2 Scenario: CSM assault the Berzerkers
CSM fire and kill 3.06 Berzerkers on average
Berzerker Overwatch kills 0.19 CSM on average
Aspiring Champion causes 1.50 wounds
CSM cause 3.42 wounds
Berzerker Champion causes 1.41 wounds
Berzerkers cause 1.84 wounds

#3 Scenario: Berzerkers assault CSM, disoriented charge
Berzerkers fire and kill 1.06 CSM on average
CSM Overwatch kills 0.90 Berzerkers on average
Berzerker Champion causes 1.16 wounds
Berzerkers cause 1.77 wounds
Aspiring Champions causes 1.07 wounds
Chaos Space Marines cause 2.17 wounds

#4 Scenario: CSM assault the Berzerkers, disoriented charge
CSM fire and kill 3.06 Berzerkers on average
Berzerker Overwatch kills 0.19 CSM on average
Aspiring Champion causes 0.75 wounds
CSM cause 1.63 wounds
Berzerker Champion causes 1.41 wounds
Berzerkers cause 1.84 wounds

#5 Scenario: Berzerkers assault CSM with Dirge Caster nearby
Berzerkers fire and kill 1.06 CSM on average
CSM get no Overwatch
Berzerker Champion causes 2.32 wounds
Berzerkers cause 5.18 wounds
Aspiring Champions causes 1.07 wounds
Chaos Space Marines cause 2.17 wounds

>> No.30119747


#6 Scenario: CSM assault Berzerkers with Dirge Caster nearby
CSM fire and kill 3.06 Berzerkers on average
Berzerkers get no Overwatch
Aspiring Champion causes 1.50 wounds
CSM cause 3.49 wounds
Berzerker Champion causes 1.41 wounds
Berzerkers cause 1.84 wounds

#7 Scenario: Berzerkers assault the CSM with Dirge Caster nearby, disoriented charge
Berzerkers fire and kill 1.06 CSM on average
CSM get no Overwatch
Berzerker Champion causes 1.16 wounds
Berzerkers cause 1.96 wounds
Aspiring Champions causes 1.07 wounds
Chaos Space Marines cause 2.17 wounds

#8 Scenario: CSM assault the Berzerkers with Dirge Caster nearby, disoriented charge
CSM fire and kill 3.06 Berzerkers on average
Berzerkers get no Overwatch
Aspiring Champion causes 0.75 wounds
CSM cause 1.66 wounds
Berzerker Champion causes 1.41 wounds
Berzerkers cause 1.84 wounds

#9 Scenario: CSM and Berzerkers are both in assault with neither side getting shooting or overwatch, with challenges being issued by someone else and with charging side making a disoriented charge.
Berzerker Champion causes 1.16 wounds
Berzerkers cause 1.96 wounds
Aspiring Champion causes 0.75 wounds
CSM cause 1.66 wounds

Total Wounds caused:

#1 Scenario: Berzerkers 8.05, CSM 4.14
#2 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.44, CSM 7.98
#1-#2 Scenario: Berzerker 11.49, CSM 12.12

#3 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.99, CSM 4.14
#4 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.44, CSM 5.44
#3-#4 Scenario: Berzerkers 7.43, CSM 9.58

#5 Scenario: Berzerkers 8.56, CSM 3.24
#6 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.25, CSM 8.05
#5-#6 Scenario: Berzerkers 11.81, CSM 11.29

#7 Scenario: Berzerkers 4.18, CSM 3.24
#8 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.25, CSM 5.47
#7-#8 Scenario: Berzerkers 7.43, CSM 8.71

#9 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.12, CSM 2.41

#1-#9 Total: Berzerkers 41.28, CSM 44.11

TL;DR, Berserkers are worse than regular CSM with MoK and flamers

>> No.30119787

this is mostly irrelevant

my only claim was the plasma pistols thing

>average hits from 2 plasma pistols at BS4 = 1.3
>wounds vs T4 = 1.1
>wounds vs T4 with 5+ invuln = 0.7

now add that to the extra point whatever leftover from bolt pistols

roughly two dead marines, one dead TEQ. as I said

>> No.30119802

>prove me wrong
>proof is irrelevant
>my only claim was blah blah blah
>despite me talking shit about CSM earlier

You made multiple posts implying CSM were worse than berserkers.

You even posted using CSM combat as a specific example in favor of your proposition in the form of point returns, seen here >>30119655 when I just linked you proof positive that even your own mathematics and proof is faulty.

>> No.30119813

>>wounds vs T4 with 5+ invuln = 0.7

Who the fuck takes terminators without storm shields? What kind of army with valuable 2+ units don't give them 4++ or don't have 4++ naturally?

Seriously, stop fucking posting you ignorant twat. Especially if you're going to straight up say math proving you fucking wrong is irrelevant when you yourself asked for math and proofs.

>> No.30119828

>CSM worse than berzerkers

and now you're just making up shit and arguing against who the fuck knows what. I never said CSM are worse than berzerkers, in fact I run CSM in my army IRL and don't use berzerkers

in fact, I searched the thread and *nobody* ITT has argued that CSM are better than zerkers

what's the deal

>> No.30119838

>who takes termis without storm shields

me, because I play CSM

I said it was irrelevant because he's implying I said zerkers are better than CSM, which I never said. I said plasma pistols earn their points back, that's it

>> No.30119841

Riptides and helldrakes are not OP

debate me

>> No.30119849

*nobody has argued that zerkers are better than CSM

>> No.30119860


>those zerkers will kill a unit of equal points cost and demolish anything else

>> No.30119872

Nothing in the game can reasonably kill a Riptide, plus it has a fuck you large blast which can intercept. It does this for 15 points more than a kitted out marine squad. Why do you think that is fair?

Heldrakes aren't op, they just kill MEQ foot armies instead.

I think flamers should be S5 Ap4, heavy flamers should get torrent and S6 AP4. Tell me why I'm dumb for wanting flamers to ever be used.

>> No.30119873

The point is why would you not just use CSM. Why would you even use Berserkers. This entire thread is you flailing about impotently trying to justify the use of berserkers and plasma pistols.

You could just use CSM with MoK instead.

And people don't even use CSM because they're so bad, opting for allies, cultists, and zombies instead. So what does that tell you about Berserkers when they are even worse than a unit that DOESN'T EVEN GET CHOSEN, EVER.

>> No.30119881

they will, if they get the charge. similarly, the CSM will kill them if they get the charge. that proves nothing since CSM are still better, and I never implied otherwise

>> No.30119891


I don't have to debate you because you probably died from being retarded after submitting this post

>> No.30119896

>if they get the charge

What are defensive grenades.

What are not getting the charge.

>> No.30119905

you and everybody else are missing point. I *wouldn't* use berzerkers and I know that MEQ suck in general, I am well aware that cultists MSU are generally preferred. my point was, the only unit worth taking plasma pistols on are berzerkers. I never said you should actually run berzerkers

>> No.30119907

nothing in the game can reasonably kill a tyranofex

Have you seen GK vs daemons? GK have fucking force weapons and daemon bane. holy shit that is like 2 D3+1 wounds each wound to super heavy daemons provided they failed the daemonbane test and a armor/invulin. But that is besides the point. Marker lights are what makes riptides OP

>> No.30119914

>ignores cover ap3


>> No.30119916

what are they both have the same grenades

>> No.30119923

>one vector strike and flamer template on turns 2 and maybe 3 can ruin my day


maybe if you're dark angels

>> No.30119936

No, buffmanders, farseers or marker lights make them OP. GK should never get close to a Riptide, which can just jet 4d6" away. See, tyrannofexes are tough, but have no invuln and slow movement, plus their shooting is mediocre at best. Riptides are fast as hell, shoot like a leman Russ on steroids and have at least a 5++ constantly. They also compete with nothing now crisis suits can be troops in farsighted enclaves.

>> No.30119946

but the plasma pistols are fucking useless on Zerks. Zerks are bad as is adding another 30 points of useless to them is not making either better.

>> No.30119966

instead of having a useless, expensive bad thing, you have a marginally better expensive bad thing that can actually do some damage but just costs too much. the berzerkers in my scenario can actually fuck shit up with large volume of attacks and AP2 pistols, they just cost so much they're not worth it

but since you're already taking something that isn't worth it by fielding berzerkers, you might as well make them actually do something. having 300 points of mediocre damage output is better than having 200 points of negligible damage output

>> No.30120289

>this thread
Op must be rusing

If he's not... then I guess it's possible for people to be as braindead as GW balancing crew

>> No.30120516

Stealth suits are not only good, but great.
Footdar is still strong.
Grey knights are overpowered.
New nids are not bad.

>> No.30123602


>> No.30125342

>GK are still OP

okay you got me

explain this bullshit

>> No.30125734

>"controversial" 40k opinions that you have
I think the entire setting works much better as black comedy than as serious drama.

>> No.30125775

You're not alone.

>> No.30125972


Obviously. Why the hell would anyone take 40k seriously?

>> No.30126349

Hypothetical Situation;

You are given total control of Games Workshop.
But, you can only make changes starting in 2020, and only if you take all blame for current GW shit.
Also, you can't own stock in Games Workshop, and are only paid the average wage of a Red Shirt (which you could raise).

Would you do it?

>> No.30126726

People think 40k is a serious drama? Like, people think the setting is supposed to be 100% serious?

>> No.30126745

>gw thinks the setting is 100% serious
They aren't in on their own joke.

>> No.30126826

Have you ever tried to read any of the novels that aren't about Ciaphas Cain? It's all very serious face grimdark.

>> No.30126828

Maybe on some twisted level they think its serious, but as far as I can tell they only take 40k seriously when they're suing somebody sideways.

>> No.30126920

>Stealth suits are not only good, but great.
Most Tau players know this, it's just Riptides and Crisis teams are far better.

>> No.30126995

>maybe twisted level
I think it goes without saying.

>> No.30127451 [DELETED] 

>Tyranids aren't bad, they are q

>> No.30127506

>Tyranids aren't bad, they actually very well balanced, 40k just needs to fix the "tall poppys"

>> No.30127544

>Have you ever tried to read any of the novels that aren't about Ciaphas Cain? It's all very


>> No.30127940

I don't care about 40K. At all.

>> No.30128196

The 4ed/5ed Daemon Codex was actually really good and competitive but only got its underpowered reputation from people failing to play it effectively duh its high skill curve and people overestimating the effect of its luck factor.

>> No.30128452

In the early days GW knew it was suppose to be a tongue-in-cheek setting.

>> No.30128926

>nose filters
>a can of web solvent

>> No.30128993

>low point games, 750 pts
>GK- termies, grandmaster (s), Dreadknight(s)
>Any other army- like, 1 or two AP2 weapons, 5 or six max, if you run bare-minimum troops.

>> No.30129036

>anybody plays competitive 750 point games

>> No.30129064

he has a fedora tucked in there somewhere

in ADDITION to the fedora he is already wearing, as his "civilian headgear"

>> No.30129588

Of course not, 750 is played for fun, competitive games are played to beat people over the head with your codex and rub their faces in poorly defined rules and faq loopholes.

>> No.30130483

>all this rage and trolling in this thread

clearly OP is a double crossing agent of chaos working for Tzeentch while spreading rage in the name of Khorne. well done

>> No.30130974


What is not knowing what defensive grenades do.

>> No.30131086

>not posting the one with the image

>> No.30132473

Because you're an ignorant fuck who snorts, pushes his glasses up his nose and mutters "Well, the statistics say..."

Yes. Fine. We get it. Statistically, magic will happen. Fact remains: Berzerkers are bad. Plasma Pistols are bad. Taking them is never worth it. All the maths in the world cannot refute that fact. You're wrong. The people who have been playing for a lot longer than you are right.

Maths doesn't always work in this, simply because, surprise, dice are random.

>> No.30135538

>Dice are random
>Therefore math doesn't work

Do I really need to explain why this is a dumb thing to say?

>> No.30136199

cool story bro, but

>I never said berzerkers were good
>read the thread
>24 hours later people still mad

>> No.30136326

>you're still being belligerent and retarded
>surprised other people are still being annoyed at you

>> No.30136543

>upon closer examination you realize I'm not being belligerent at all, but it is in fact you who are the one calling people names and cursing anonymous people on in the internet because they have a different opinion than you

>> No.30136623

>implying your very first response to your own thread wasnt calling everyone a "faget" for pointing out you were wrong
>while you were blatantly lying about your experience the whole thread

Why do you keep lying? You lie about your experience, and then you lie all throughout the thread about things you "didn't" say only for people to link back your own posts as proof you're lying.

>> No.30136847

faget is not really an insult

I admitted I has avin a giggle about pretending that I'm a 40k pro, but I do the math for my units which seems to put me above half the people on this board who just spout retarded "conventional internet wisdom bullshit", see: every CSM post in a list thread that still has god damn AC havocs

and most of the >implications that I said things, like "zerkers are better than csm" are bullshit and just people grasping for straws. the problem with people who must always be right is that they read something, then imagine it said something else, so that they can prove it wrong. you read my posts about berzerkers and you automatically think "this guy actually thinks berzerkers are good" or "he used the word scenario, it must mean his numbers only apply to a specific scenario and therefore I can poke holes in his arguments and imply that his scenarios are perfect world situations that rarely happen" when if you actually read what I said, you'd see that I addressed the most common scenarios that the berzerkers will be in, therefore my setup doesn't require the stars to align perfectly, it will happen more often than not in most games




>> No.30136968

>makes a thread defending plasma pistol berserkers
>lies all thread long
>says other people are grasping at straws

My god you are like the lord of hypocrisy sitting on the throne of faggotry in the kingdom of shut the fuck up.

Your post quality somehow declined when you sobered up, unless you're fucking drunk again, in which case you have bigger issues than trying to convince random idiots on /tg/ that plasma pistol berserkers are worth using.

>> No.30136998

>"he used the word scenario, it must mean his numbers only apply to a specific scenario and therefore I can poke holes in his arguments and imply that his scenarios are perfect world situations that rarely happen" when if you actually read what I said, you'd see that I addressed the most common scenarios that the berzerkers will be in,

Someone linked CSM beating berserkers in math and you just said it was irrelevant despite claiming that berserkers earn their points back against CSM.

>> No.30137040

Popped in while browsing page 0 just to say
>upon closer examination you realize I'm not being belligerent at all,
That? Pretty obnoxious

>> No.30137064

>That? Pretty belligerent

>> No.30137083


That's pretty much the TL;DR version of this entire thread.

>> No.30137097

On Topic: I don't think tyranid warriors are that bad.

Off topic: Underboob is best boob.

>> No.30137304

I posted my own math proving otherwise, the format and speed of that guy's post leads me to believe he just ran some kind of program and input a bunch of extra nonsense into the scenario like lightning claws, etc

lol y u mad tho.jpg

if you can't take a little abrasive ribbing then maybe 4chan isn't for you. yeah, I know this board isn't for constant shitposting but a confrontational undertone was established in the OP, so if you don't like it don't post ITT. really, I'm not even being that much of an ass compared to the ALL CAPS FUCK YOU'RE WRONG replies I'm getting

but to keep my thread on topic:

>people putting anything other than havocs or noise/plague marines in CSM rhinos

scooby dooby don't

>> No.30137336

So what Havoc loadouts are worth taking then
If there are any worth taking at all, that is

>> No.30137347

Autocannons are a good choice

>> No.30137353


It's the abrasive ribbing while BEING WRONG that people take offense to, coupled with CONTINUING TO BE WRONG.

>> No.30137375

You're wrong. You're not even right. You're not even good. You're not even experienced.

Where the fuck do you get this confidence from? Your ass? Must be trolling.

>> No.30137447

I like how a single person has not agreed with the berserker thing but I guess you're just right and that's that. But everyone should still totally try to prove you wrong though, even though they have and you just dismiss them all.

>> No.30137485

pretty much just plasma

that said, havocs aren't competitive because MEQ in general aren't competitive

I'm not talking out of my ass, only one guy here posted a slew of numbers (that were largely irrelevant because they didn't address most of what I said) so I posted numbers that are actually relevant to my point. everybody else is just screaming YOU'RE WRONG NO LALALALALALALALALAL FUCK YOU I'VE BEEN PLAYING LONGER THAN YOU, YOU KNOW NOTHINGGGGGGGGG FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKK

So that's why I'm confident in what I'm saying. Maybe I am wrong, but if I am, you could compare it to Ken Ham going to an elementary school and having a bunch of little kids telling him god isn't real. While the kids are right, they just keep yelling NO NO U WRONG MR HAM and Ken is laying is the philosophy on them and has tried to logically deduce support for his argument

>> No.30137523

Needs to be less grimdark.

>> No.30137545

As in Plasma Guns? Feels like a waste of a HS slot.
Or I guess an even bigger waste of a slot.

>> No.30137603

it is a waste of a slot, havocs are not competitive

meltas are another option. the only problem with these two loadouts is it puts a giant target on your puny MEQ's ass, making them a threat they can't maintain. but that's their best loadout, ACs, flamers, heavy bolters, etc suck worse, missile launchers with flakk are hilariously bad AA

>> No.30137617


Your original premise is fucking retarded. If you're handicapping yourself by taking a poor unit like berserkers, it's always better to make due with them stock than to give them garbage like plasma pistols. It's the reason people that do use assault marines and vanguard vets don't give them plasma pistols.

>> No.30137629

well if you absolutely want havocs I forgot about lascannons, they are okay long range AT against AV12 but die if you look at them wrong. you're better off with a cheaper combi pred or lasboat pred

>> No.30137639

Please stop giving advice and commentary on the game when you are this new and inexperienced.

>> No.30137690

40k is well balanced and naysayers are envious of 40k's popularity.

>> No.30137715

>choose to take berzerkers
>you can take roughly 105-290 points of a unit that does nothing, invalidating an entire section of your list
>or you can spend 30 points and make them have at least a chance of doing something while still being expensive and shitty

your choice

>> No.30137744

>argumentum ab auctoritate

>> No.30137778

my controversial opinion is that this post is 100% serious

>> No.30137791

It's not that we can't fathom it, it's that you're fucking WRONG, you retard.

>> No.30137850

why are you just spamming NO YOU'RE WRONG NO YOU'RE WRONG NO YOU'RE WRONG

I mean, if you're going to back anything up, why hit the submit button? are you really this mad?

>> No.30137901


The premise that berserkers can do nothing unless armed with plasma pistols is extremely faulty and incorrect.

>> No.30137924

>>choose to take berzerkers

Normal people don't. I don't know what's your problem. Down's maybe?

>> No.30137934

the earth is flat. because I said so

also, it's not just the plasma pistols. I've already explained the other circumstances of my argument ad naseum

>> No.30137962


You still haven't proven anything other than you think paying 30 points to kill 1 extra enemy per charge is worth it.

Berserkers will perform the exact same with or without plasma pistols over the course of an entire game so you may as well save the points.

I don't know if you think plasma pistols make berserkers AP2 in close combat or what, but your arguments are retarded. If multiple people are screaming that you're wrong then either take a clue or sit back in your chair and grin that you've managed to rustle and ruse so many people by only "pretending" to be retarded.

>> No.30137965

define normal. there are probably more people who just enjoy the game casually instead of turning a plastic space men into serious business than there are competitive players, and many of these people field berzerkers

what is your problem, WAAC?

>> No.30137988


>> No.30138055


If you have to argue this hard to defend your shitty choices you obviously aren't confident or secure enough in them so no, the "I'm just enjoying the game casually" cop out excuse doesn't work for you.

>> No.30138071


People have already proved you wrong multiple times in this thread as well, what's your point.

>> No.30138111

>refusing to take berserker and CSM comparison as relevant/valid

Then how the hell is anyone supposed to prove ANYONE? You can't make any judgments about a unit in a vacuum.

>> No.30138208

Ok, yeah, that was retarded. My bad. I guess I'm trying to say that, whilst statistics are useful in a game like 40K, there'll be the times you roll a handful of 6's, just as there'll be times you roll a handful of 1's.

Saying "I've done the math on these units, and they work well when these conditions are met" means dick all when some of those conditions might be a 1/6, 1/2, 1/4, whatever chance. You can't account for what rolls you may or may not have.

>> No.30138239

That first line was a thing of beauty.

>> No.30138277

An opponent brought a full-Lascannon squad. I annihilated them with 4 Plasma Cannon Devastators. Unless there's a TON of vehicles, avoid Lascannons. And whilst I don't know the CSM codex that well, there'd have to be better ways of getting AT other than Lascannon Havocs, right?

>> No.30138323

lascannons are generally better vs 2+ save MCs, too.

>> No.30138374


A 4-7 turn 40k game is too small of a sample size to accurately plot statistical d6 results from theoryhammer.

>> No.30138390

>that said, havocs aren't competitive because MEQ in general aren't competitive

So why exactly aren't MEQ competitive? Its an arguement I've heard before, but I'm curious to see what the reasoning is.

>> No.30138391


My complaint with plasma cannons is they can't be snap fired.

>> No.30138428


They pay too many points for bolters and power armor which aren't powerful anymore with the way armies like Tau and Eldar are getting improvements.

If you are being shot at by a Riptide, would you rather have one space marine, or 3 guardsmen/boys? At least then you'd have 3 times the wounds and shots. They're both going to die the same and fail to deal any damage the same. But you get three more attempts. Not to mention being able to spread out to mitigate losses from templates, being able to bubble wrap, being able to force multiply 3 times harder from buffs, etc.

>> No.30138458

As >>30137924 said, couldn't you just...not take Berzerkers and have something that is, according to literally everyone else in this thread, more useful?

>> No.30138486


You are talking to someone who tried to imply berserkers were more useful than Heldrakes.


>> No.30138518

So is mathhammer actually useful in the format OP laid it out in, or is it saying "This is the most likely outcome, over x-hundred games"?

>> No.30138567


The latter, and it's also the baseline default you can use in your assumptions, except keeping in mind you may roll a 1/6 and perform/underperform, but in general you can expect something in that ballpark.

E.g. it takes 110+ splinter rifles, 15 dark lances, or 15 lascannons to kill a naked uncharged Riptide. But what if he has FnP? What if he overcharges? What if you get lucky and kill him in only 5 shots/wounds? The math tells you you should still at least prepare that many weapons beforehand if your goal is to kill the Riptide in a single volley. At LEAST that many. It may take even more.

The math isn't worthless just because the d6 are random, but it also means you can and will fail to do what the math says you should be able to.

OP hasn't even provided any math whatsoever so I don't even know what he's talking about anymore.

>> No.30138579

I guess so. I was going to say 'In what situation do Plasma Cannons need to be Snap Fired', but then I remembered I wasn't retarded. I guess it'd be useful, but I dunno. For Vanilla Marines, they're 10 or so points cheaper, vaporise TEQ just as well (or even better, considering Blast) than Lascannons. The only downside I see is Gets Hot!, which is a hassle because I hate dem ones but the ones love me.

>> No.30138648


Gets Hot isn't worth worrying about with BS4 and 3+ unless you are REALLY bad at rolling dice.

Even if you roll 1's a lot you'd have to do it like twice in a row.

>> No.30138789

Hellturkeys are bullshit. Until I got around to adding some AA, Vector Striking was the bane of my Objective-holding Tactical Squads

>> No.30138811

> REALLY bad at rolling dice

>> No.30138900

plasma guns or melta guns. Stick 'em in a rhino if you want.

>> No.30138944


Well at least you'll always pass leadership tests!

>tfw a unique circumstance requires you to fail a leadership check to win the game

>> No.30138995

"Ok, I have five Terminators. I need 2+ to keep them alive."
> Four 1's.

>> No.30139083


Fool! Don't you know my daemons get to reroll their failed saves thanks to my mighty patron Tzeentch?!

>roll more 1's

>> No.30139165

And the one time when I want to roll low...

"My Chapter Master's retinue got dinged up a bit with one or two deaths. That's fine, he's the leader of a Chapter of Space Marines. He's one of the most fearless beings in the Imperium. He won't run from Ork Boyz! He's one of the Emperor's Chose--"
"You rolled a twelve. Your Chapter Master squeals like a girl and runs 9" away."

>> No.30139275

It's both. You judge a weapon's effectiveness based on how it will perform over many games. That's how probability works.

>> No.30139978

Are Vanguard Veterans REALLY worth their points, now that their Heroic Intervention rule is COMPLETELY different?

>> No.30140825

>I don't see why any salt is given to /tg/s collective knowledge on 40k.

/tg is the WORST place to go for 40k strats. Most of the posters are NEETS who obviously can't afford to play in the first place and the rest are parroting what they read somewhere else. Anyone who has experience and wants to comment gets lost in the white noise.

>> No.30140937

>Anyone who has experience and wants to comment gets lost in the white noise.
>all those feels
>tfw someone posts 'Oh man look, Eldar is actually better than Tau check out these tournament results' and you've been saying that for months

>> No.30140947


They were never worth their points. You can run them naked if you really want a lot of chainsword attacks but you should just run assault marines instead.

And you should never want to run assault marines anyway. It's like Eldar running Banshee instead of Scorpions.

>paying extra points for a dedicated assault unit that can't go toe to toe with any other dedicated assault unit in the game, including those cheaper than it
>I seriously hope you MEQs don't do this

>> No.30141034

What the hell are you talking about? I've posted more in this weekend than I have in three years combined. 4chan is something I look at on the phone when I'm taking a shit or I have to other wise kill 5 or 10 minutes. I rarely post. Like four or five times a year. I just happen to be killing time while I wait for my minis to dry.

>> No.30141051

Ugh, sorry please disregard. I TOTALLY misunderstood what you meant. Didn't see green text. Must go to bed.

>> No.30141212

you know that next turn your chapter master gets a 3" instant consolidation for ATSKNF and then can move as normal right?

>> No.30141232

Plus how the fuck did you lose combat to ORK BOYS as a chapter master with a retinue? You go first and ALL of your attacks should murder the boyz like they were 3 year olds.

>> No.30141312

40k is a game with an element of chance.

>> No.30141353

Rolling all 1s and 2s on your attacks on ork boyz sounds like terrible luck. Considering if you had charged into the orks, they should have been decimated. An honor guard squad goes first, and has 2+ armor saves with power weapons. Unless the "retinue" was tacticool marines, then you're just bad at warhammer.

>> No.30141423

>Considering if you had charged into the orks, they should have been decimated.
Probable outcomes do not always correlate to actual outcomes, and in this case they clearly didn't.

>> No.30141443

>having this bad of luck
>you should just smash your models and start over

>> No.30141445

gr8 b8 m8 I r8 it 8/8
Lascanvocs are better.
But chaos marines don't win tournaments. This discussion is a lot like a toddler deciding which martial art to use in an MMA match against Goro.

>> No.30141455

Destroy the taint and exorcise the spirits of bad luck before they can spread to the other models.

>> No.30141462

I think fourdeekay is the least fun you can have with a table top.

>> No.30141481

I dunno, I think having a table top fall on your nuts would inarguably be less fun than playing 40k, whatever you think of it.

>> No.30141501

But what if that's my fetish?

>> No.30141515

Matt Ward is not as bad as some people make him out to be.

>> No.30141614

His fluff appeals to my inner teenager, and I'm pretty happy with his crunch (who can fault the crunch of a guy who made an entire army of lascannon-monkeys possible).

>> No.30142062

>4chan is something I look at on the phone when I'm taking a shit or I have to other wise kill 5 or 10 minutes.
>tfw 4chan is so not optimized for your phone
>can't argue with people efficiently at all in public

First world problems. If you ever see some guy furiously poking at his smart phone and then sliding around on the screen for 30 seconds trying to get the captcha to unzoom without the stupid toolbar blocking the captcha words, that's me.

>> No.30142072


He tried to smash his models but rolled a 1 to hit.

Then his hammer got hot and now he doesn't have hands.

>> No.30142634


His fluff is shaky, but his crunch is consistently the best and most internally balanced in 40k. I'd rather he wrote any codex instead of Robin "If you're not IG I'm nerfing you into uselessness" Cruddace or Phil "Having half of your units be unusuably bad is cancelled out by having 2 or 3 game-breakingly good units" Kelly.

>> No.30143189

>I was only pretending to be retarded!

>> No.30143211

There's nothing wrong with vendettas or robochickens.

In fact I wanna add some chickens to my vendettas.

>> No.30146138

Does anybody have any plausible guesses/canonical sources that state Commorragh's size? City sized? Continent sized? Planet sized?

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