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29960406 No.29960406 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

>"I want my character to have a Katana. Katanas are the greatest sword ever made"

>> No.29960488
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29960488

>dat cutting tip
>dat differential hardening
>dat lamination
You have to admit it's cool, though it's not universally practical.

>> No.29960510

>>29960488

I mean, yeah, It's cool. But I'd much rather have a broadsword or even a gladius. It can't cut through fucking tanks like Katana plunkers love to think

>> No.29960530
File: 1.01 MB, 1600x1444, grinning fox.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29960530

What do you have against Shadowrun, OP?

>> No.29960615

>>29960406
Man, nobody FORCED you to play with weaboos. Blamin them for wanting a katana (in an inappropriate setting, I assume?) is like blaming oxygen when your house burns down.

>> No.29960679
File: 160 KB, 500x531, 1371435252817.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29960679

>>29960615

>Blaming faggots for overhyping a sword that couldnt even beat chain mail.
>Similar to blaming oxygen for fire

wut?

>> No.29960762

>>29960679
They're both behaving exactly how you should expect them to. Don't play with faggots if you don't want to deal with faggotry.

>> No.29960766

>>29960488
It was cooler when it was just invented, or hundreds of years earlier when the celts did it.

>> No.29960769

>>29960679
A closer metaphor to what he was going for would be like blaming the fireworks for burning down the house when you set them off in the living room.

Sure, they did do it, but its your own damn fault for setting them off in your living room

>> No.29960788
File: 84 KB, 1600x1600, Schiavona-Morges.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29960788

I wish this weapon saw more use.

>> No.29960796

>>29960769

Ok. I can grasp that.

>> No.29960808

>>29960679
It can't beat chainmail, but it anihilated layered textiles which were quite good at stopping piercing weaponry like spears and arrows. Katanas made sense at the time.

>> No.29960817

>>29960530
I was just thinking that the other day as well. I share the usual distaste for katanas most people on here, but for some reason I can always overlook it for Shadowrun.

>> No.29960837

>>29960788
That's basically a Longsword with a fancy handbasket.

>> No.29960859

>>29960817
Shadowrun is cyberpunk fantasy. It's the katana's natural habitat. Same reason chainswords are generaly ridiculous in D&D but standard in Dark Heresy.

>> No.29960895

>>29960817
Why is there a distaste? The general crowd surrounding it?

>> No.29960956

>>29960406
It's a Beautiful sword for one.
The geometry of it is a nice and astounding thing to think about considering how to doesn't follow western blade physics.

Now it's really great for cutting flesh and leather, in fact better then just about any other standard sword.

But no swords really are able to go through plate backed by chainmail.

That's the entire purpose and function of maces and spiked warhammers, because swords didn't work against those kind of targets.

>> No.29960957

>>29960895

Like with many things in life, Katanas have people who think they are cool and just recognize them as an exotic sword, and then there are the assholes who scream the praises of it and refuse to acknowledge other swords exist.

The latter group is louder and therefore destroys the sword for everyone else

>> No.29961058

>>29960956
So why didn't everybody just learn to use the katana and the mace really well, have one of each, and be done with it.
Also, what about spears?
>dat versitility
>dat long range
>dat cheap to make

>> No.29961111

>>29960406
>greentext
>quotation marks
pick one

>> No.29961120
File: 375 KB, 1650x1017, tercio.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29961120

>>29961058

>For roughly 200 years, warfare was just pike squares surrounding musketeers running into eachother

>> No.29961142

>>29960837
It's really not son.

>> No.29961181

>>29961120
How do you fight something like that? Pikes are scary as shit.

>> No.29961187

>>29960956
>dat historical revisionism

>> No.29961208

>>29960957
Alright, that's what I figured. Thanks.

>> No.29961209

>>29961181
With organized charges, sheilds, or just shooting them with various projectiles until their numbers are thinned or fear gets the best of them.

>> No.29961212

>>29961058
You have to remember swords rarely weigh more than 3 pounds for speed reasons. This means there is no reason you shouldn't carry a sword on your belt, even if you brought a spear or pollaxe to the battle.

When trying to pierce maille the tip on the katana means it's hard to thrust through, encountering rings on the front, but a pointy weapon will break the rivets on the maille from the inside. Therefore in medieval Europe pointy swords maximised versitility.

>> No.29961253

>>29961181

Sometimes it was just "get more pikemen"
sometimes it was >>29961209

I read that more precise artillery ended the tercio. I imagine it would lose some effectiveness when the artillery's strategy was "Aim for that big square of tightly packed guys"

>> No.29961297

>>29960956
It's all about the warfare meta.

>> No.29961300
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29961300

>>29961120

>That fucking dog

what a bro

>> No.29961366
File: 241 KB, 1000x700, spartan phalanx drawing.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29961366

>>29961181
By being better at it.

>> No.29961401

>>29961181
Pike formations needed support to be effective. Specifically they need help disrupting enemy lines. The combined arms tactics of Alexander the Great, promenently featuring pike formations, kicked an astounding amount of ass. However Rome defeated the simple phalanx tactics of late ancient Greece.

>> No.29961440

>>29961181

Crossbows help, as do cannon, and if the pike square isn't properly drilled, cavalry charges from the flanks and rear.

>> No.29961445

>>29961297
Well yeah.
The main reason that Katana's were so "exceptional" is because, let's be honest, Japan is nothing but a bunch of smart people on a very small rock with little resources.

When you don't have the plethora of iron that Europe had, your mass produced armor consists of mainly wood and leather plates, since you don't want to waste precious iron.

Thusly the swords were refined and changed to the point that they were designed for cutting through flesh and leather.

Meanwhile Europe is over here with fully decked out knights holding swords backwards to club each other and are trying to punch each other unconscious until the spiked Maul was invented.

One civilization had math, and the other had enough resources for trial and error.

>> No.29961477

>>29961445
Wrong.

>> No.29961557
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29961557

>>29961445

>Japan is nothing but a bunch of smart people on a very small rock
>Implying the Japanese have an inherent higher intellect

>> No.29961584

>>29961477
Well yeah, I kinda short-changed the part about where all of Japan's weapons are basically repurposed farming implements.
And that the Katana started out as a glorified skinning/grain knife and got longer when they decided they wanted to kill eachother.

But I'm assuming you're correcting me on something else?

>> No.29961601

>>29960895
lots of people liked it, as with anything that people like they ignored the flaws and hyped the good stuff. then, naturally some people started to hate it and do the opposite, overstate the flaws and ignore the advantages.

>> No.29961624
File: 164 KB, 1500x1000, burr_puzzle--iq125_1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29961624

>>29961557
Decent enough at math and geometry.

Traditional Japanese Carpentry doesn't use a single nail. Just a series of locks like those annoying as fuck 3D puzzles.

>> No.29961636

>>29961477
Your well thought out, detailed, and citation filled arguments have filled me with awe and swayed my opinion. I totally don't think you're a troll, and it's completely true that killing yourself wouldn't be the best possible contribution to society.

>> No.29961684

>>29961624
>cant into mortar
>smarter

>> No.29961695

>>29961684
They just really like math too much.

Plus alchemy was a Chinese thing.

>> No.29961701

>single edged weapons not being guttershit

>> No.29961710
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29961710

>>29961624
No-nail joinery probably predates written history. The first dynasty of Ancient Egypt had pharoes entombed with dovetail-joined furniture.

>> No.29961744

>>29961684
Iron rusts, and Japan's an island nation. Use your head.

>> No.29961746

>>29961701
>wanting nicks in your blade when you parry with it.

>> No.29961750

>>29961624
Most traditional carpentry has no use for nails.

>> No.29961778 [DELETED] 

>>29961746

>Parrying with your blade like your in a fucking movie

>> No.29961805
File: 73 KB, 524x468, 1371567128636.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29961805

>>29961746
Parrying with your blade like you're in a fucking movie

>> No.29961820
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29961820

>>29961750
True enough but Japanese Joinery is a bit more complex then your standard Dovetails.

>> No.29961829

>>29961805
How are you supposed to parry, anyway? Any movies with more or less realistic combat?

>> No.29961835

>>29961805
>Using a two-handed sword
>But not parrying.

For what purpose?

>> No.29961845

>>29961701
>hating on falchions
>hating on messers
>hating on sabers
They have their uses.
>>29961829
Shields presumably.

>> No.29961860
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29961860

>>29961805
>Movies
>Not from ye olde tapestry of martial prowess

>> No.29961881

>>29961820
Lego is older than I thought.

>> No.29961882

>>29961829
I think traditionally you roll up on them smooth and shank them in the armpit.
Real sword fighting would be super gay looking because it's like a couple of drunk fuckwits brawling in an alley except everyone's wearing armour.

>> No.29961886

>>29961829
You're supposed to parry with the FLAT of the blade, not the edges.

>> No.29961887
File: 133 KB, 1280x1707, m8sl44Pa5m1r6hu3go1_1280.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29961887

>>29960406
>have friend who despises everything about katanas
>I'm more ambivalent about them, but I enjoy ticking him off
>playing campaign where we can fuse elemental spirits into weapons to change their properties and appearance
>fuse fire spirit into katana to create pic related, because it's one of the few katanas I found really good looking
>cue the butthurt and accusations of being a weeb

Ah man, it feels so good to mess with him.

>> No.29961902
File: 44 KB, 600x450, nagamaki.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29961902

>>29961829
I believe parrying effectively requires the use of the sides of the blade; banging the edges together will damage the blade. Of course you may not be able to do that all the time in actual combat, but knowing how will keep your sword from snapping.

I think a lot of samurai movies usually show combat more realistically. You usually have to hound around for more grounded, well choreographed combat in Western films, though.

>> No.29961928

>>29961860
http://www.thearma.org/essays/edgemyth.htm#.Uu3nfvldXh4

>Nowhere in the Medieval German fencing manuals do we encounter words that mean parry or block as it is defined in later fencing. Rather, we find the word “displace”, Versetzen, as in intercepting and deflecting attacks

>> No.29961945

>>29961887
is
is that a magazine and a trigger incorporated into the sheath?

>> No.29961953

>>29961945
It shoots the sword out super heated

>> No.29961963

>>29961181
I remember reading that Halberds were used to pull/lock Pikeman, but it wasn't widely used as Pikes were in decline by the time Halberds were available.

>> No.29961966
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29961966

>>29961945
Have you heard of iaido?

That scabbard is a gun that uses a bullet to shoot the sword out at ultra high speeds, creating bullet powered sword slashes.

>> No.29961970

>>29961945
Yes. It fires the sword out for lightning-speed draws, and sometimes just to hit a dude in the face with the hilt.

>> No.29961986
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29961986

>>29961945
Heh, yes it is. The game had him use it to facilitate some ridiculously fast quick-draw moves, regardless of the fact that it would rip his arm off.

>> No.29961989

>>29961966
I think that might be the stupidest thing I've read this week.

>> No.29961990

>>29961966
>>29961953
>>29961970
i fucking love weebshit.
seriously thats the funniest shit i have ever heard i need to play revengence

>> No.29962015
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29962015

>>29961989
It might be stupid, but it is also one of the coolest swords in videogames.

>> No.29962022

>>29961986
>it would rip his arm off
>hes a cyborg with presumably the same strength as raiden
>raiden parries a sword attack from a metal gear ray
>then he throws it into the air

>> No.29962055

>>29962022
Specifically his right arm (sword arm) is cybernetic up to the shoulder. He has no other cybernetic parts, though I'm not sure if his armour thingy also helps make him stronger.

>> No.29962057

>>29962022
You're forgetting the part after Raiden kills him where he mentions that Sam barely had any cyborg enhancements. Besides his right arm, his body was almost completely human.
And the whole game works on Rule of Cool anyway.

>> No.29962064

>>29961986
It would break yours or my hand, probably, but Sam has an ability enhancing exoskeleton, and later a full-on cyborg hand.

>> No.29962084

>>29961986

Not likely, considering the base of his scabbard is an ar 15, that means the biggest cartridge it could conceivably be firing is something like.50 beowulf, which is an impressive enough round but doesn't break bones when people shoot it.

>> No.29962175

>>29962084
Still, that's anywhere from 2,300 to 3,200 Foot-pounds of force.

Which means it'd be enough to blast that sword near 480 feet away on a horizontal plane

>> No.29962247
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29962247

>>29962175
There was a xkcd what-if physics article about machine-gun propulsion. Rifles exert a lot of force, but it is applied over a very short interval. An AK-47 only averages 13 pounds firing on automatic.

>> No.29962307

>>29961120

Why the fuck isn't this in a total war game yet?

Pike and shot formation is best fucking formation.

>> No.29962351

>>29962307

Knowing total war AI, they'd probably just shoot the pikemen in the back of the head

>> No.29962387

>>29962351

This is probably true...

>> No.29962388

>>29961120
Pikes combat looks terrifying.. Tho I suppose all form are fairly terrifying. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=625iTKITRoA

>> No.29962401

>>29962247
Yeah, at the end of it though You're still getting about +6m/s to your drawspeed and swing force if you're somehow able to maintain that additional momentum.

Which is better then your standard human arm.

>> No.29962474

>>29961902
You never parried perpendicular with a katana, but my instructor always thought that turning the blade sideways or reverse to block was particularly daft.

>> No.29962552

>>29962401
It's probably useful force if the gun components can be made light enough. Otherwise it's probably not worth the extra mass in the sword.

>> No.29962579
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29962579

>>29962388
>http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=625iTKITRoA

That's one of the best Medieval combat scenes I've ever seen. Thanks!

>> No.29962614

>>29962022
>>29962055
>>29962057
Doesn't Sam wear what amounts to light power armour?

>> No.29962620

>>29962552
Well no that's including doubling the weight of your standard Katana, for safety measures.

Still. The additional force if faster then a human can naturally draw a blade.

Add in a Cyber-arm and exo-skeleton, as well as whatever heated plasma nonsense, and you've got something probably as badass as it actually is in game.

>> No.29962667

I understand that weaboo revere katana, because they are weaboos and don't know better, but why do practically all documentaries about Samurai or Japan also engage in katana wankery? Just yesterday, I saw a documentary that completely unironically called katana the greatest sword of its time and said that it could cut steel.

>> No.29962745

>>29962579
I'd love a good war band mod that could replicate this type of combat, closest I've gotten is 'the eagle and radiant cross'

>> No.29962763

>>29962667
Japanese historians in the west are all weeaboos.

>> No.29962776

>>29962667
Well yeah, it can cut steel.

It can cut steel sheets as thick as your standard set of European armor...
Provided that that it catches hold of an unrounded edge, and that it's a sheet instead of any kind of ridges or bends that the armor has, usually for decoration purposes alone, funny enough.
And that there's enough room and mobility for a "Drawing strike" where the katana is pulled forwards and the momentum carries perfectly to peel the steel.

That's a fuck ton of IF's though.
And none of those if's would be there against standard european armor. And funny enough, not intentionally either.

A katana cutting through a steel sheet is like cutting a sheet of paper with safety scissors.
You can do that thing where you make a small incision on the edge and just ride the scissors all the way through and you'll cut it really easily...

Now try to cut another sheet of paper with the same safety scissors starting in the center while the paper is curved outwards and moving... Nigh impossible.

>> No.29962880

>>29962776
Now get every style of Euro sword to do the same, and realize why the sword was always a side arm for when shit got too real and you were a faggot with too much money to spend and forgot your useful mace or morning star.

>> No.29962999

>>29962880
Exactly. In the case of Cutting steel European swords and Katanas are pretty much going to be doing the exact same thing.
It takes nigh perfect conditions to cut through something.

Swords are only good against flesh and leather or as side arms when you can actually hit gaps in the opponents armor.

It's rather pointless to compare Katanas to Longswords as any amount of metal armor pretty much makes both swords useless.

I personally like katanas, but only because of the blade geometry and the fact that they're usually unnaturally fucking shiny.
But I'm not going to sperg and say they cut through tanks.

>> No.29963007

>>29962880
Stiletto?

>> No.29963023
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29963023

>>29962880
Sometimes you have to deal with peasants. Swords only weigh a few pounds, so it's not much loss to carry one as a sidearm.

>> No.29963040

>>29963023

>COUNTRYMEN! PAY HEED TO MY BOOTSTICK!

>> No.29963094

>>29963023
>10-foot pole
This nigga knows what's up.

Now all he needs is a bag of rats.

>> No.29963169

>>29961111
>"pick one"
No.

>> No.29963179

>>29962776
Pretty sure the primary weapon of the samurai was actually the bow, for that matter.

>> No.29963261

>>29963179
True enough.

At 20 meters General Arrows will punch through plate armor pretty reliably.

Not sure if Japanese arrows were made in a different means though.

>> No.29963293

>>29961111
I personally prefer the usage of green text for more short an concise quotes, usually summarized or simplified variants of said quotes.

That or when using short phrases, like your post.

Having an extended quotation tends to not bear badly when it comes to aesthetics or format when using both greentext and quotations.

>> No.29963304
File: 60 KB, 540x678, yumi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29963304

>>29963261

I imagine it was the massive draw force from the bow's length

>> No.29963331

>>29963304
doesn't that make them weaker ?

I remember hungarian bows were short as fuck but powerful

>> No.29963342

>go play pathfinder as baby's first pen/paper
>someone brings their younger brother
>he's maybe 15, rest of us are 20+
>custom nordic setting, custom races and their general cultures
>dm didn't go as far as custom classes, tells us to use whatever
>we end up with a bard, a race-specific religious cleric, a rogue, a carbon copy of Inigo Montoya complete with lines, and a fucking samurai
>nordic setting
>nordic race he chose is extreme ends of barbaric and shamanistic
>plate-wearing, horse-riding, katana-wielding samurai
If he wasn't also both obnoxiously attention-whoring and unable to form coherent sentences half the time I wouldn't care as much, but jesus...
>whenever he crits demands that he's allowed to describe the exact attack and its effects in great detail

>> No.29963358
File: 140 KB, 1600x1199, Master_Heon_Kim.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29963358

>>29963331

They were recurve bows, allowing them to be small but still have a strong draw. Long bows (like the english yew longbow or the Japanese yumi) were long, strong, and down to get the friction on

>> No.29963373

>>29963331
Length increases draw distance though. Not sure how it cancels out. What I do remember is that force is proportional to the cube of the curvature.

>> No.29963379

>>29963304
japanese bows has shit for draw strength

It is effective in around 10 metres.

You basically firing it point blank. The asymmetrical design is due to they need to use it on horse back.

They lack the technology and skill to make composite bows. So they have to use bamboo, and since bamboo is shit, the only way to make a bow with any draw power is to make it huge.
but making it huge prevent samurai ( they are horsed knights) to use it on horse back, so they make the bottom part smaller.

this design then makes the bow extremely hard to aim, so using it does require skill.
But the bow is by no means "good" in any definition.

stop being weaboo
pretty much everything design japanese had is due to limited technology and material.

do you know why they beat and smelt the hell out of the steel they use in katanas? because they can't make high quality steel, so the only way to make metal of any strength is through brutal force repetitive beatings and foldings.

The truth hurts, deal with it.

>> No.29963391

>>29961212
>Therefore in medieval Europe pointy swords maximised versitility.

There's more than this. Late Medieval longswords were mostly spring steel due to the fact it could be manufactured in larger quantities by the application of waterwheels to blast furnaces.

A katana, on the other hand, is a composite blade - a softer backing with a hard edge. Aside from differences in geometry, there are a lot of differences in internal structure that also change performance.

>> No.29963404
File: 106 KB, 605x650, 1376000376803.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29963404

>>29963379

>This bow is pretty cool.
>STOP BEING A HUGE WEABOO. DEAL WITH IT. TRUTH HURTS

>> No.29963406

>>29963373
>force is proportional to the cube of the curvature
If you take that assumption literally then it ought to be that bigger bows always result in more energy because of the longer draw. Proportionally even.

>> No.29963418

>>29963379
>because they can't make high quality steel, so the only way to make metal of any strength is through brutal force repetitive beatings and foldings.

The "beating and foldings" wasn't to make steel. You made steel in a furnace. Said steel can come out with a variety of material properties depending on the process used.

The beating and the folding was to stretch the small amount of hard steel produced as far as possible, by welding it onto relatively softer and less brittle material. This meant you could make functional swords out of less material.

>> No.29963444

>>29963418
the steel they smelted in their shit forge is in such low quality

you need to beat the hell out of it to remove the impurities.

They use shit steel of various properties to make a sword because they can't make homogenized steel (they have no blast furnace, derp hurp!).

Twisting and folding lesser quality m etal to make a single good item is wide spread technique used by various regions int he world.

It's a technique to compensate for the inability to make any metal worth anything.

>> No.29963455

>>29963406
Assuming all else is equal. Two bows of the same size and shape, one made of ebony and the other of yew, will not have the same draw.

>> No.29963461

>>29963418
they could only smelt metal in small quantities, so they pretty much have to use composite techniques to make anything big.

>> No.29963464

>playing with a weapon expert
>but anon, a katana is a shit sword you can't do that
>but anon, pike were only used in formations
>but anon, halberds are too heavy to be manipulated that way
>but anon, a straight european sword doesn't cut
>but anon blabla

>why are you always playing a wizard

>> No.29963485
File: 109 KB, 200x200, 1373846722837.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29963485

>>29963444
The reason their steel had impurities was that they got their steel from black sand. Fucking sand. Not because they were retarded but because it is a chain of volcanic islands over there

>> No.29963511

>>29963485
they had no high quality ores.

they had ore sands.

>> No.29963522

>>29963007
yes lets call that a sword, it's gonna do so great at CUTTING steel, since it was made to slip into the joints of armor and stab.

>>29963444
Dude, unless it was crucible steel that was from the Mid-East, it was pretty much guaranteed to be absolute fucking shit, euro OR nip, something tells me you're a retard who doesn't know that smelting and smithing were two different things.

>> No.29963531

>>29963485
if they had blast furnace, the smelting product, even from iron sand, would be much better.

>> No.29963541

Just a reminder that everything that was ever done up until the Renaissance, Muslims did it better.

>> No.29963547

>>29963522
insult my person more

they had no smelting capabilities
so they need to use smithing techniques to compensate.

go eat more sushi

>> No.29963553

I can understand not allowing certain weapons because of setting restraints.

But you hypocrites would be praising someone if they wanted to use a Macuahuitl even if it doesn't fit with the setting or lore.

A weeaboo wants to use a katana in a generic setting? Give it the same stats as a longsword.

>> No.29963565
File: 4 KB, 236x213, images (2).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29963565

>>29963331
It was the curve.

To increase the Draw weight you have to either increase the length or cause a sharper curve in it like this.

However by making it curved it's a LOT harder to pull back then one based on size alone, because of the decreased leverage with the increased draw weight, rather then increasing the leverage with the DW.

>> No.29963588

>>29963565
>>29963358

I see then
anyway curved bows are sexier

>> No.29963592
File: 201 KB, 412x394, 1378934711442.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29963592

>>29963547
>insult my person more
>stop being weaboo
>go eat more sushi

>> No.29963598

>>29963547
Dude, mid-eastern (specifically Persian) steel beats out fucking euroshit and nipshit due to not being pants on head retarded and in essence making bessemer steel some thousand or so years before the European retards figured it out.

face it nips and euroshits are shit to Persians. And yeah if you're being a retard, i'm going to call you a rere.

>> No.29963603

>>29963541
Who cares? They got their teeth kicked in by the mongols and still havent recovered.

>> No.29963652

>>29963541
Wrong, they didn't crusade better. From the Reconquista to retaking the Holy Land, Europe was much better at waging holy war.

>> No.29963655

>>29963547
Europeans didn't have high smelting capabilities until the Industrial Revolution.

So your argument doesn't really hold up on both accounts.

Not to mention you testiness, and one-sided statements tends to shred credibility from your statements.

>> No.29963668

>>29963598
what? who the hell is talking about persians?

>> No.29963684

>>29963655
european had blast furnace late in middle ages

that's how they could start making plate armor

the italians pioneered it

that's why early full plates were called "italian style"

learn to history

now sit down

>> No.29963712

>>29963553
Actually there's Katana Stats.
1d8 18-20/2x

Which in only 1 more crit threat range, but at the cost of a feat.

Which I think is fair.
Especially if you're playing a race like Kenku or Tengu travelers/ nomads.

Nomadic bird-people fit into almost any setting.
Especially when such birds are really common carrion birds.

>> No.29963716

>>29963652
>eurpoeans take the south of spain, and for a century or two a strip of the holy land
>muslims take north africa, the middle east, a lot of central asia, a lot of india, much of west africa, much of east africa, the malaysian archipelago, the balkans, and fell the oldest empire the world has yet seen
Okay.

>> No.29963718

>>29963652
I don't think we can say anyone holy war'd well.
The crusades were a mess. A mess I'm proud of, but a mess.

>> No.29963759

>>29963718
Does that include the Children's Crusades?

>> No.29963768

>>29963716
since you seem to know your shit; how did the muslims GET all those places? namely Indonesia

>> No.29963789

>>29963712
>Katana
>Exotic weapon
>It's just a fucking sword
Why
>Bastard sword
>Exotic weapon
Right, DnD, carry on.

>> No.29963856

>>29963716
They then lost almost all control from those lands except parts of the middle easts. They got overrun by modern industry of europe and the natural upheaval of Africa in general

>> No.29963859
File: 369 KB, 2562x1772, o9YvxMa.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29963859

>>29963547
Bullshit.

The Japanese made "Tatara" steel bloomeries out of clay all the way back in 600-700 during the Asuka period.

Which is why katanas date back to ~782 A.D.

Yes this still doesn't change the fact that they were refining ore sands, which brought up a lesser quality of steel, but what you're saying is utter bullshit.

>> No.29963867

>>29963759
Considering they never did anything, no.
They didn't even fail horribly like the 4th Crusade.

>> No.29963899

>>29963716
Ah but you forget, I said HOLY war. Not all of those expansions were as a result of the Muslim caliphate calling for war on the infidel, most were just territorial acquisitions. Also Muslims, being Muslims and not master race Catholics cannot even be counted as holy!

>> No.29963904

>>29960837
I'me assuming you mean arming sword, not longsword?

and that is still wrong. The blad is much broader and it has less of a pointed tip. What you are looking at is a broad sword.

>> No.29963909

>>29963856
Indonesia and Pakistan still exist, and Islam is still the major religion in the northern parts of africa.

>> No.29963913

>>29963856
> modern industry of europe and the natural upheaval of Africa in general has anything to do with holy warring
Okay.

>>29963768
Boat. They had awesome sailors, and taught Europe most of what's what until about the 1600's.

>> No.29963918

>>29963859
Momoyama period best looking

>> No.29963925

>>29963789
It seem like to me as far as DnD weapon proficiencies go:

Simple:
>Farmer/Non-combatant
Martial:
>Conscripted Soldier levels of training
Exotic:
>Knight/Specialist

Regardless of culture.
But yeah, Jap and eastern weapons tend to be higher then needs to be considering they're all repurposed farm implements... But then again who in the fuck can effectively use a mini-scythe blade on a chain in combat without stabbing themselves?

I will never understand who though that was a good idea for a farm tool.

>> No.29963942

>>29963867
And that one is also probably apocryphal, isn't it?
It was just a plot by inter-dimensional pirates to eat children if it wasn't.

>> No.29963956
File: 414 KB, 554x790, 1387396334307.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29963956

>>29963918
I'm a fan of the Muromachi period.
I like to the different light angle from the tip to the body shining off of it.

You may also find this interesting.

>> No.29963958

>>29963942
Thick books are dedicated to determining the extent of the Children Crusade's verity. It's hard to tell apparently.

>> No.29963969

>>29963925
>Loading, maintaining and operating a crossbow is simple
>using a bastard sword requires advanced training beyond what someone would learn as a professional soldier
The system's pretty messed up, to say the least.

>> No.29963972
File: 178 KB, 800x640, depressedVulture.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29963972

>>29960406
>Longsword will never get it's dues in video games or tabletop
>There will never be a system based off of European longsword fencing

Why do people dislike the greatest medieval melee weapon in the world so much?

>> No.29963996

>>29963972
Why is that vulture so sad

Did he lose his lunch to a necromancer?

>> No.29964005

>>29963972
Nidhogg

It's a pretty complex fencing game for how simple it looks.

>> No.29964007

>>29963972
Isn't Riddle of Steel that? I'm sure there's something

>> No.29964020

>>29963913
see they never taught me that shit, were they really that good at sailing? the way AP euro history told it we learned it from glorious aryan nords or something.

so what exactly stopped the glorious expansion of islam?

>> No.29964027

>>29963972
Because it was shit and was more about, I can afford this useless piece of shit side arm when everyone else still uses maces and morning stards and such which aren't useless pieces of shit.

>> No.29964032

>>29963972
Riddle of Steel details fencing quite elaborately. Plus Song of Swords, a derivative of Riddle of Steel which we have constant threads about, is having its public beta released in a few days.

>> No.29964045

>>29964020
In a word, Austria, with honorable mention to Albania and Romania.

>> No.29964048

>>29964020
The amount of men the Pope threw at the middle east damaged it.

But actually stopping it? I'd like to say WWI.

>> No.29964053

>>29963859
>>29963547

Fuck both of y'all


Damascus Steel, look it up.
It's like medieval Plasteel.

Fucking Carbon Nano-tubes man.

>> No.29964056

>>29964020
They were that good. Aryan nords were actually shitty, they used sail and oar and mostly only sailed once for literal seed money.

More well established religions in the north, west, and east, and lack of economic incentive, and Nubia, in the south. The Nubians are all kinds of fucking crazy guerrillas, only part of Africa not to be conquered by Europe.

>> No.29964077

Is the Book of Swords series any good?

>> No.29964079

>>29961212
>maille
Don't be that guy.

>> No.29964085

>>29964045
>>29964048

wait WWI and the autrians stopped the spread of islam

is there any texts or books or whatever that i can read or look up to learn more about this, im seriously intrigued here my fathers major was islamic studies. never figured out why, he didn't do anything with it

>> No.29964098

>>29964045
>>29964048
>the pope
>austria
>not polish fucking hussars and russia in the backdoor and the western idea of economic expansion for its own sake

>> No.29964112

>>29964085
>my fathers major was islamic studies. never figured out why, he didn't do anything with it
Because he found it interesting and when your father was in college a BA would get you a pretty cush job regardless of major.

>> No.29964137

>>29964020
Reactionism, I forget whet the actual name is, but it was basically we need to treat all hadiths as equal even the ones that say shit like all this knowledge that helps us bring people to God is evil and not of God and come from the Prophet's uncle's third cousin's friend's camel seller's wife's brother.

Basically the late medieval-early modern version of Waha'abism.

>>29964053
>Damascus steel
You do realize it's refuting AND supporting him for the most part right, he's a retard for thinking euroshit steel was good, but he's right on nipshit also being shit.

>> No.29964153

>>29963859
here comes the weaboo.

Tatara or 鑪 just means fucking forge.

calling it in it's native language doesn't make it any more fancy.

>> No.29964178

>>29964098
>>29964085
Austria plus Romania (Vlad Dracula ftw) and Albania (Skanderbeg ftw) managed to stop the Ottomans from coming farther than the Balkans into Europe during the shit I don't remember, 1500s? 1600s? Then after WWI the Ottoman Empire disbanded due to instability.

>> No.29964201
File: 256 KB, 572x595, colonialism1914.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29964201

>>29964056
You mean Ethiopia.

>> No.29964225

You did huh? And no ranks in crafting metal weapons.

It would be a shame if something were to happen to your one-of-a-kind unique sword there.

>> No.29964239

>>29961966
its not a bullet, its an explosive. it hits a little bar under the blade and launches it up via the crossguard

>> No.29964240

>>29964201
>The Baqt (or Bakt) was a treaty between the Christian state of Makuria and the Muslim rulers of Egypt.
>The Kingdom of Makuria (Old Nubian: Ⲙⲁⲕⲟⲩⲣⲓⲁ, Makouria; Arabic: مقرة, al-Muqurra) was a kingdom located in what is today Northern Sudan and Southern Egypt. Makuria originally covered the area along the Nile River from the Third Cataract to somewhere between the Fifth and Sixth Cataracts.
Nubia resisted Islam and Ethiopia, Europe, it seems.

>> No.29964271

>>29964112
more like he was so wealthy he didn't need to work until he was 30 something

>>29964137
reactionary movements have a tendency to fuck things up in the long run. paper tigers and all that.

>>29964178
that also makes sense. again, its a shame i never learned this shit in school.

>> No.29964303

>>29964271
Where'd ya get your schooling? Amurika?

>> No.29964308

>>29964271
True, but it's what ended the golden age.

>> No.29964314

>>29963969
It actually is, considering that you can train a peasant how to fire a crossbow in far less time than it would take to train a swordsman proper technique/speed/power. And don't get me started on how much easier it is to train for a crossbow than a longbow.

Hell the church tried to outlaw the weapons because of it's combination of killing power and ease of use. Many feared too much power in the hands of the rabble could topple religious authority.

>> No.29964318
File: 167 KB, 450x388, 1368825159844.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29964318

>>29964271
>mfw you weren't taught this stuff
>mfw I just realized I wouldn't know half of this shit if I didn't have such a bro-tier history teacher
>mfw deplorable state of the education system

>> No.29964384

>>29964314
>Papist feel when it was the printing press that did it more effectively.

>> No.29964407

>>29962579
>>29962388
Fucking hell
>Dat Pike Square
>Dat Caracole charge
>Dem Matchlocks

>> No.29964414

>>29964303
texaswe had four fucking years devoted to our states history alone. i had one year of euro history

>>29964318
america has no idea what to do with its schools but i think it also has to do with the fact that the U.S. has arguably no interest in approaching history from any angle but eurocenterism and probably has an active material interest in obfuscating the history of the middle east and islam writ large.

>> No.29964481

>>29964414
It makes me wonder if those online schools like Khan Academy has history courses.
I shall go check.

>> No.29964531
File: 25 KB, 290x230, Bait.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29964531

>>29964027

>> No.29964613

>>29961989
This is from the same game where a guy has shields with claymores on them so when you hit the shield it explodes in your face, and a pair of swords that lock together into a giant pair of battle scissors.
And a chick with a spear/whip made of robot arms.
Also the main character tears one of a giant robot's sword arms off and then fights it with the giant arm-sword that's about 100 times bigger than him.
And apparently playing football in college makes you a master of hand-to-hand combat.
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance truly does not have a single fuck to give about realism. It gives so few fucks that it uses words that do not even exist in it's title, because real words don't adequately convey the amount of hype the game contains.

>> No.29964642

>>29964613
>memes are the dna of the soul

>> No.29964678
File: 6 KB, 203x191, 1390195631803.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29964678

>>29963179
The samurai had bows and polearms in addition to swords; fucking everyone had polearms and bows and swords.
In both the East and West, the sword is carried on a belt when you were done with your spear or hammer, because it was easy to carry one as backup. If it's the first thing you pull out, either you're dueling or you really like swords.

>> No.29964684

>>29964678
did
did warhammers actually WORK?

>> No.29964697
File: 168 KB, 1315x573, 1382414520770.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29964697

>>29963444
I know you're just shitposting but I like an excuse to post this.

>> No.29964736
File: 49 KB, 491x245, 1381877024904.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29964736

>>29964684
A hammer upside someone's head is generally good at hurting them; yes.

>> No.29964764

>>29964684
As I understand it hammers and maces are pretty much the go-to weapon for dealing with armor when you don't have a hundred other dudes with pikes to back you up.

>> No.29964769

>>29964684
Yes they did, they were less lethal than blades against unarmored opponents, because you'd have to bash somebody in the head in order to kill them, but sometimes that was preferable.

Well, unless you use the spike on the other end, but you'd have to be careful not to get it stuck on the enemy.

>> No.29964779

They'd do alright for fighting fantasy creatures.
At the end of the day I'd rather have a Katana than a Longsword for fighting a Basilisk, Minotaur or Hellhound.
Its just kinda pointless against metal armor, where it's advantage is lost completely.

>> No.29964783

>>29964684
Yes. Physics is a bitch.

>> No.29964788

>>29964736
>>29964764
>>29964769
so the long and short of it was either stabbing someone with a lot of long pointy sticks or hitting them about the head with a bit of metal was the best way to kill someone

>> No.29964812
File: 33 KB, 419x580, 1383787792648.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29964812

>>29964788
Well, there are plenty other ways if you like fun, but those are the go-to's for most people.

>> No.29964819

>>29964788
Or just have a metric fuckton of dudes with longbows rain murder on them.
In fact that's probably the best way, longbows slap all kinds of shit.

>> No.29964843
File: 484 KB, 520x596, 1391335683708.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29964843

The reason longswords and the like are better than katanas is because you can murderstrike with them.

>> No.29964851
File: 8 KB, 160x553, War_hammer2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29964851

>>29964684
>did warhammers actually WORK?
A brick on a stick is not a warhammer.

>> No.29964889

>>29960510
I saw some people do the RPG maths of how strong you have to be to cut a tank with a katana. Ends up being so strong you could pick up the tank and throw it.

>> No.29964891

>>29964684
One of the best melee weapons to wield against armored opponents.
It's an excellent primary weapon.

>> No.29964907

>>29962015
>It might be stupid, but it is also one of the coolest swords in videogames.

understatement of the year.
Both this one and last

>> No.29964916
File: 68 KB, 786x558, 1370348032756.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29964916

>>29964843

>> No.29964919

>>29964889
>using strength to modify sword attacks
>not dex
fucking gaijin, its like you don't even nippon

>>29964819
whats the deal with missile weapons? was the end goal of developing them making them as easy to use as possible?

>> No.29964937

>>29961445
Stop being a rascist prick pls

>> No.29964955

>>29960766
The way the japanese make blades is different from the way how the celts did it. Just saying.

>> No.29964978

>>29964819
Which is why everybody with any sense preferred a siege battle over a field battle.

>> No.29964982
File: 371 KB, 800x670, 1378770192471.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29964982

>>29964916

>> No.29964989
File: 171 KB, 584x600, 1384950922353.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29964989

>>29964982
Wait, wrong image (I think).

>> No.29965016

There may be a day where we won't have this thread.
Someday.

>> No.29965022

>>29963261
A dead on hit was needed to actually go through that and penetrate the gambeson once they had worked out plate armour. Which you almost certainly won't get.

>> No.29965031

>>29964919
>whats the deal with missile weapons?
In an age where most combat is at melee range, the guy who can stab you from 50 paces on horseback is a cruel and merciless force of nature. Or, like I said, you can just get a bunch of guys firing volleys that cripple the enemy before they reach your melee guys.
Crossbows were easier to use because they don't rely on the user's upper body strength, but couldn't come close to longbows in terms of range and firing speed. Early guns were easy to use like crossbows, but had the added benefit of tearing through armor really easily.

>> No.29965032

>>29964788
Who knew?

>> No.29965043

>>29963261
Doubt it.
As always, the debate of whether an arrow can punch through plate it resolves to: Maybe.

Mike Loades has a video where they fire a 150lbs bow at point blank range at a chainmail/gambeson combination and the arrow does not penetrate the gambeson.
This does not mean, however, that gambesons and chainmail are invincible to arrows, it just means in that particular setup with those particular things, it wasn't possible.

>> No.29965064

>>29960406
goddamit you fuckwits, Katanas are NOT. THAT. TERRIBLE. Holy shit. They are average/slightly below average. Let people play with them, whats the deal

>> No.29965066

>>29960406
Alright.

>gives them a masterwork bastard sword named "katana"

>> No.29965089

>>29965031
so basically crossbows and early guns were close support for things like pikemen, while archers were more for whittling away at the other army?

>> No.29965102

>>29965064
>what do you mean i should read the thread

>> No.29965124

>>29965089
Pretty much.

>> No.29965173

>>29961928
Just so you know, John Clements is full of fucking shit.

ARMA is the organization a swordsman outgrows, not an authority they cite.

>> No.29965176

>>29965089
Depends on the army and time as well. The French in the 100 years war liked their crossbows, lots of countries did not have access to as many trained longbowmen as the English.

>> No.29965246

People really need to get it out of their heads that swords are some ultra expensive mythical item that nobody can afford. Any professional soldier (most soldiers in the Middle Ages) or anybody in what we call the middle class today could afford one of decent quality.

>> No.29965263
File: 155 KB, 950x675, sempachgross.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29965263

How can you improve upon perfection?

>> No.29965269

>>29963261
There's a lot of ifs related to trying to wound a person on plate with a bow.

If you don't have a hard enough bow, you can't do it at all.
If you're too exhausted/tired/malnourished to draw that hardass bow all the way, you can't do it.
If you hit a sloped part of the armor, it will not penetrate.
If the shaft of your arrow is not thick enough, it will not have enough weight behind it.
If the tip of your arrow is not designed to penetrate armor, it'll just stop at the padding.
If you're not close enough, it'll just stick in the padding.

Plate armor is by no means immune to proper armor piercing bows, but it is still resistant of them.

>> No.29965275

>>29965263
With guns mostly.

>> No.29965287

>>29965263
I guess you could improve the guard a bit.

>> No.29965305
File: 379 KB, 1206x1300, alexander roman 03.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29965305

>>29965246
It's even more frustrating seeing people claim stuff like the sword is a completely ineffective weapon and only carried around as a means of status symbol.
It's the perfect neckbeard chairforce general misconception upon which you can completely disregard opinions concerning medival warfare.
If someone as much as implies the sword is a bad weapon, he basically just admitted he has no fucking clue what he talks about.

>> No.29965324

>>29965246
Not so much saying they're mythical and super expensive, but they're the least practical weapon, and are very much less reliable unless you were lucky to get +ULFBERHT+ or Damascus on quality.

So why pay somebody for a useless piece of shit when a mace or hell even an axe was clearly a better choice. Some of us are just going against their ubiquity and their usefulness, all swords were pretty shit against plate, and chain required something closer to a goddamn rapier or small sword to be worthwhile.

>> No.29965332

>>29965246
Even a beggar could afford a shitty, poor quality sword.

>> No.29965369

>>29965324
>Most versatile weapon
>least reliable
>least practical
>doesn't know about Solingen
>"mace or axe is a better choice"

Did you go down a checklist?

>> No.29965384

Viking smithing puts everyone to shame.

>> No.29965388

>>29965324
Because they're sidearms and work very well with shields and bucklers?

>> No.29965428

>>29965324
They are not the 'least practical' weapon, they were carried continuously by almost every soldier for over 500 years both before and after plate armour was common.

>>29965305
It really is silly. Even peasants would carry cheap ones for self defence.

>> No.29965437
File: 108 KB, 1032x4074, 1239820251933.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29965437

>>29965388
>sidearms
That's why we have a plethora of swords that are meant to be wielded with two hands, right?
>>29965384
Their way of combining steel was basically taking rods of different steel, put them next to each other and then spin them around each other. That's pretty basic to achieve what you want and pretty much a way of saying "I have no clue how to do it any other way."

Don't get me wrong. It works just fine and the result is totally ok, but this technique didn't fall out of use without a reason.

>> No.29965481

>>29962667
Have you watched the history channel lately? Modern documentaries are all sensationalism and wank

>> No.29965490
File: 42 KB, 600x312, Langes Messer.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29965490

>>29965428
A peasant can't own a sword. At least not in medival germany. Pic related. It's a 'Langes Messer' (Long Knife).

Note the handle and hilt are different from a sword.

>> No.29965504

>>29965490
Haha that's brilliant. So they couldn't own a sword so they just made a really fucking big knife?

>> No.29965535

>>29965504
Pretty much, yeah.
And the length of such "knifes" wasn't limited either. You could be running around the forest with a 2m long "knife" and it would be totally ok. Why you'd do such a thing is anyone's guess, though...

>> No.29965574

>>29965490
Well as far as I know there was nothing stopping them in England. In fact every man between 15 and 60 had to own weapons in the 1300's. A bottom end sword could be had for 6-10 pence which is about a weeks wages for a common labourer.

A sword of reasonable quality with a belt and scabbard would be 3 shillings or so which is 36 pence.

>> No.29965580
File: 211 KB, 300x168, fuck's sake.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29965580

>>29964937
...That's not racist. Like, at all.

>> No.29965622

>>29965437
>sidearms are exclusively one-handed
>not weapons you wear at your side

>> No.29965644

>>29965504
>thats not a knife
>THIS IS A KNIFE

>> No.29965655

>>29965644
That's a spoon.

>> No.29965663

>>29965384
You mean the refined metal they got from the middle east?
The Northmen put so much work into it, sure.

>> No.29965670

>>29963684
That was the late middle ages. Thanks to the sudden abundance of plate armour, knights began to use large two handed weapons to pierce said plate. That lasts a comparatively short time before firearms change tactics again.

Medieval generally refers to the 'chain mail and lance' period. No blast furnace there.

>> No.29965683
File: 498 KB, 499x337, mfwspoons.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29965683

>>29965655

>> No.29965702

>>29965663
>trade for superior materials
>use technology and methodology ahead of it's time
>create really bad ass shield flinging swords

That shit was MAGIC to most people.

>> No.29965706
File: 3.34 MB, 622x350, fork-powah.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29965706

>>29965644
>>29965655

>> No.29965715

>>29964736
I really like the Kanabo. A simple no-nonsense weapon designed to beat the everloving fuck out of people.

>> No.29965738

>>29965670
>That lasts a comparatively short time before firearms change tactics again.

>firearms
>changing knight tactics

Yeah, you see the arrival of the dragoon or whatever, knights that use guns instead of lances.

Why the fuck does everyone think that people in plate had a problem with guns?

Guns couldn't get through plate up until +-1800 or something.

>> No.29965766
File: 28 KB, 800x522, kusarigama1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29965766

>>29963925
The weapon you're describing, the Kusari Gama, was not used in the way you think it was.

It was a small scythe and a metal weight attached via chain. The weight was used as a bludgeoning weapon on unarmored heads or was used to entangle a sword to make an easier kill.

Apparently it was highly effective.

>> No.29965767

>>29965305
They're still just a back-up weapon.

They're the weapon you use when the spear formation is gone, or when your axe head gets lobbed off, the enemy finally reaches your archery ranks or your lance fucking splinters.

It's not your main weapon, ever.

>> No.29965769

>>29965738

Didn't they have more problems with giant formations of Pikemen becoming the norm?

>> No.29965815

>>29965767
It depends on the sword. The Zweihander was designed by the Swiss to break pike lines. And fuck off if you're carrying that thing around as a secondary weapon.

>> No.29965827

>>29965622
Try wearing a 120cm long sword on your side.

>> No.29965891

>>29965767
Every depiction, be it in the alexander romance, the maciejowski bible or even ledgers on graves depicts knights with a sword in most cases. If it was a pure backup weapon, it wouldn't be found as often in said depictions. If it was bad, noone would have carried it as the 'shit just got real' backup plan.

People (mostly idiots) claim the sword was ineffective. It is not. People claim it was purely a backup weapon, which might be true but it still is an effective weapon. Yet these people don't seem to understand that sidearm does not mean 'never used'/'only used when mainweapon is gone'. The moment you dismount, you don't use your 3m long lance anymore. That's when you grab your sword.
Maces have been in use as well, so have axes and hammers. But to say the sword is a mere ornament to show off your status is utter nonsense. To say the sword is only used when everything else fails is nonsense.

>> No.29965938
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29965938

>>29960406
>>"I want my character to have a Katana. Katanas are the greatest sword ever made"

"Cool, except nobody in the setting knows that word, so you can have one but it'll be called a two handed sabre, OK?"

There, you've kept a player content and preserved your eurofaggotry. Happy?

>> No.29965944

>>29965891
>refers to fiction instead of historical sources and weapon manuels

The real knights weapon was the mace, the lance, the warhammer. Any historician can yell you that. You fucking retard.

>dismounting your horse when you have a lance

And your biggest fucking mistake as the uberneckbeard armchair general.

>thinking that calling swords secondary weapons means that they were status weapons

You fucking retarded piece of vaginal discharge.

Is the service pistol used by modern soldiers a status weapon?

OF COURSE NOT YOU DUMB AUTISTIC CHUCKLEFUCK!

It's a viable secondary weapon when the situation demands it.

But NO ONE is going to shoot at enemies at 230m with his fucking service pistol when they still have their main rifle.

>> No.29965992

>>29965891
>People (mostly idiots) claim the sword was ineffective.

And idiots who hardly count as people (like yourself) claim that people claim that swords were ineffective.

Swords weren't ineffective. Swords are simply jack-of-all-trades.

They're good for nothing, except for everything a little bit.

That's why they make perfect backup weapons. Because they're jack-of-all-trades.

>> No.29966007

>>29965767
>They're still just a back-up weapon.

Firstly, for a lot of people it was their main weapon, whether Rajaputs in India, cavalry in Napoleonic Europe or legionaries in Rome.

Secondly, you don't understand what people mean when they say "backup weapon" and assume it must be like a modern-day pistol is to a soldier - something they quite reasonably expect to never have to use. You are wrong. Sieges, skirmishes and raids were more common than formation battles on open ground; it's entirely possible for a lancer or pikeman to see MORE combat with their "backup" sword than with their main weapon.

KM posted this excerpt from a 14th century Mamluk-Kipach military treatise a while back:

>"This is such a weapon that all the people use it; the one who knows (how to use it) and the one who does not, young and old are protected by it everywhere. And it (the sword) is (such) a good brother that it does not become inactive in wide or even in narrow places. One needs it on the sea and on the land and in a crowd. On a very windy day the lance becomes a burden for its possessor, but this (the sword) never becomes useless. And on that day the archer can not shoot his arrows straight, ((therefore) no one can do without the sword. No matter how many weapons are at you disposal, you are certain to say: "Among every class of people in every land there is no weapon other than the sword with which they (can always) fight and that weapon is identified with them." Although they have many weapons, they would never be able to make do without the sword, but those who have a sword can do without all other weapons."

>> No.29966017

If the dude wants a katana just slap on the same stats as a two-hander and charge him more for it because it's exotic.

Whoop-dee-fucking-do, why even care this much about someone's minor aesthetic choice?

>> No.29966045

>>29966007
>KM posted this excerpt from a 14th century Mamluk-Kipach military treatise a while back:

Nice post.

The concept of sword is pretty different between Medieval Europe and Middle-East. Sword wasn't some "forbidden for commoner" for Turkic people or Arabs or hell, pretty much anyone in Middle East. People didn't had to carry huge knives to mess with some laws.

>> No.29966048

>>29965944
>The real knights weapon was the mace, the lance, the warhammer. Any historician can yell you that.

...Oh wow, someone who's gotten all their history knowledge from 4chan. I bet you've never even cracked open a history book, have you?

>>29965944
>Is the service pistol used by modern soldiers a status weapon?

And now you're equating pistols (which 99% of soldiers don't even carry any more) with swords. This is just embarrassing to read.

>> No.29966090
File: 95 KB, 494x360, Prefects Station.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29966090

>>29963925
>But yeah, Jap and eastern weapons tend to be higher then needs to be considering they're all repurposed farm implements...

Be careful whenever you use "Eastern" Weapons, since Japan is a small part of that world. .

For most of the history of the Imperial Chinese, for example, they have no such thing as arms bans, and some dynasties even encouraged people to own weapons. Furthermore law enforcement in rural Imperial China, who had no troop garrisons, composed of the Prefect (an official who is a civil official/lawyer/judge/police chief rolled into one) and an armed posse. The traditional Chinese symbol for a police station after all is a weapons rack outside the station, which came from a practice where, if trouble arises, civilians go to the station armory and grab a weapon. (initially they became symbolic and the weapons are replaced by fake ones since people kept stealing them, with the real ones kept under lock and key).

Most of the "Chink peasant not allowed to keep weapons" bullshit was from the Qing Dynasty's ban for commoners to own weapons/practice martial arts, which caused for the appearance of repurposed farm implements. But that is like the latest Chinese Imperial Dynasty.

Hell, even Japan. Japan only forbade weapons ownership by Non-Samurai during Toyotomi's "Sword Hunt" during the late 1500's

>> No.29966107

>Medieval Campaign.
>That one guy who wants to use flintlock pistols.
I'm that guy.

>> No.29966109

>>29964613
revengance is a real word. an old one thats never used anymore, but a real word.

>> No.29966115

>>29965944
Swords were a pretty ubiquitous cavalry weapon, usually for use after a charge when they get into the middle of a clash and can't use their lance effectively anymore. Middle Eastern and Napoleonic heavy cavalry also used sabres almost exclusively.

>> No.29966121

>>29966017
I had a player who demanded proper Katana stats. I said okay and statted him a broadsword (less accurate, higher damage die)

Poor bastard still doesn't know.

>> No.29966132

>>29966048
>...Oh wow, someone who's gotten all their history knowledge from 4chan. I bet you've never even cracked open a history book, have you?

Putting words in my mouth. You think knights really charged the enemy from horseback with swords?

>And now you're equating pistols (which 99% of soldiers don't even carry any more) with swords. This is just embarrassing to read.

Putting words in my mouth. If you think that mentioning how backup weapons work in a modern context somehome means I'm equating pistols and swords... go back to school. Learn English, you dumb cunt.

Instead of learning history, you obviously spend all your time learning 4chan debating techniques.

Try posting some historical sources you autistic cunt.

>> No.29966139

>>29966115
>Swords were a pretty ubiquitous cavalry weapon, usually for use after a charge when they get into the middle of a clash and can't use their lance effectively anymore.

That's what I said.

A backup weapon. When you can't use your lance, you use your sword.

>> No.29966157

>>29966139
>ignores second sentence that disproves his point

>> No.29966164

>>29961990
>Weebshit

Its a japanese game you retard how is it weeaboo then?!

>> No.29966169

>>29966157
Does it look like I live in the Middle-East?

No. So I don't fucking care. And fuck playing games in the Napoleonic era.

>> No.29966182

>>29966169
It's been a long time since I've seen an unironic yuroboo.

>> No.29966186

>>29965944
>calling the morgan bible and maciejowski depictions fiction
>The real knights weapon was the mace, the lance, the warhammer. Any historician can yell you that.
You obviously have no clue what you talk about.
>thinking that calling swords secondary weapons means that they were status weapons
People refer to swords as mere status symbols a lot. Happened in this thread, too. Learn to fucking read.

>> No.29966187

>>29966109
I figured it referred to his personal vengeance and revenge for that African guy.

>> No.29966190

>>29966169
You also don't live in a time where swords are used commonly as a secondary weapon. Or a primary one.

>> No.29966201
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29966201

>> No.29966206

>>29966182
>yuroboo

Fuck you, you autistic piece of shit.

I've got Germanic blood, I've got West-African blood, I've god Chinese blood.

So shut the fuck up, and choke on a sword, you fucking sword autist.

>swords were totally the best weapon ever lel topkek

Crossbow says fuck your shit, sword fag.

>> No.29966211
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>>29966201

>> No.29966219
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>>29966211

>> No.29966220
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29966220

>>29966115
Actually in the Middle east the sword is also a secondary, tertiary, and even a quarternary weapon given that the main weapon of a Middle Eastern Cavalryman is a bow and arrow, regardless if they were heavy cavalry or light/

Tertiary because after the bow, the a cavalryman will go back to his attendants and get his lance for the charge and quarternary because once the lance gets broken or discarded, the cavalryman might pull out his axe or mace before even resorting to his sword.

>> No.29966222

>>29966186
>>calling the morgan bible and maciejowski depictions fiction
>taking art as historical sources

They're just bibles, you retarded cunt.

They're not weapon manuals you autistic chucklefuck.

>> No.29966229
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>>29966219

>> No.29966230

>>29966132
>Putting words in my mouth. You think knights really charged the enemy from horseback with swords?

Fucking hell, you got balls to say that literally a sentence after accusing me of putting words in YOUR mouth. As >>29966007 put it:

>it's entirely possible for a lancer or pikeman to see MORE combat with their "backup" sword than with their main weapon

>>29966132
>If you think that mentioning how backup weapons work in a modern context somehome means I'm equating pistols and swords

That is literally what you're doing. If you didn't mean to imply that then you should learn how to convey your point better.

>>29966132
>Try posting some historical sources you autistic cunt.

Oh look, here's a historical source:

>>29966007
>"Among every class of people in every land there is no weapon other than the sword with which they (can always) fight and that weapon is identified with them." Although they have many weapons, they would never be able to make do without the sword, but those who have a sword can do without all other weapons."

>> No.29966235
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29966235

>>29966229

>> No.29966248

>>29966230
>>it's entirely possible for a lancer or pikeman to see MORE combat with their "backup" sword than with their main weapon

Doesn't fucking matter. Pikemen are placed on the battlefield to pike. Not to sword.

They're pikemen. If swords were their main weapon, they'd be swordmen.

How dumb are you mate?

>> No.29966249
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29966249

>>29966235

>> No.29966255

>>29966230
>That is literally what you're doing. If you didn't mean to imply that then you should learn how to convey your point better.

Learn English, you retarded Cheeki Breeki slav shit.

>> No.29966256
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>>29966249

>> No.29966270
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>>29966256

>> No.29966278
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>>29966270

>> No.29966279

>>29966132
>Try posting some historical sources you autistic cunt.

Not him, but there's plenty of quotes from historical sources about how cavalry sometimes preferred swords to lances. Here's one from François de la Noue (and if you don't know who that is, stop being so goddamn american):

>"Whereupon I will say that although the squadrons of the spears [lances] do give a gallant charge, yet it can work no great effect, for at the outset it killeth none, yea it is a miracle if any be slain with the spear... Although the first rank may with their spears do some hurt, especially to the horses, yet the other ranks following cannot do so, at leas the second or third, but are driven to cast away their spears and help themselves with their swords."

>> No.29966286

>>29966220
I always wondered how much Lamellar armor really worked. Similar to chainmail?

>> No.29966290
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29966290

>>29966278

>> No.29966300

>>29966248
>Doesn't fucking matter

Yeas it goddamned does. If we're talking about how useful swords are as weapons, pointing out that people used them a fucking lot, often even over the primary weapon they were issued is very strong evidence.

>> No.29966303
File: 77 KB, 600x461, 1340588197795.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29966303

>>29966290

>>29966286
It was commonly worn over a type of chainmail, I believe.

>> No.29966306

>>29966279
Preference doesn't disprove the fact that swords were backup.

The fact that a guy had to mention he preferred swords over lances is an argument for swords as backups.

If swords were the best weapon ever forever, Francois de la Noue wouldn't have bothered saying that.

>> No.29966313
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>>29966303

>> No.29966322
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>>29966313

>> No.29966329
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>>29966322

>> No.29966330

>>29966300
>If we're talking about how useful swords are as weapons, pointing out that people used them a fucking lot, often even over the primary weapon they were issued is very strong evidence.

Think for a moment, you fucking retard.

Pikemen have huge polearms. You can fight in formation perfectly with pikes, but if the formation breaks, pikes are useless. So of course a sword will be used a lot by pikemen outside formation.

Because a sword is a backup weapon. It's a jack-of-all-trades.

So they trade the superior protection of a 2m pike to the inferior protection of a sword.

>> No.29966336
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>>29966329

>> No.29966344
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>>29966336

>> No.29966352

Swords stab, they chop, they smash, they thwack, they cook, they clean, they iron your shirts.

Versatility is a good thing to have in a single weapon especially when someone's trying to hatemurder you.

Katanas are less useful because they only chop.

>> No.29966354
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29966354

>>29966344

>> No.29966364

>>29966306
>Preference doesn't disprove the fact that swords were backup.

They were backup weapons because they're comfortable to carry. You can wear a sword on your hip and still fight effectively, do your day-to-day business, go dancing, whatever. It doesn't matter if a guy's primary function is a lancer, pikeman, archer or arquebusier, he can still double as a swordsman without much added encumbrance. Only other weapons that are as easy to carry are stuff like one-handed axes, maces, warhammers, etc, which are comparably situational weapons.

As a consequence to that, it means that there's not much point having just "swordsman" as a unit. They may as well carry a bow or pike or bundle of javelins as well so they can fill two functions.

>> No.29966367
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>>29966354

>> No.29966372

>>29966352
You could probably iron shirts and cook with a katana, at least.

>> No.29966379
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29966379

>>29966367

>> No.29966382

>>29966330

I don't even understand your point. You seem to think pointing out that both pikes and swords are situational weapons makes me wrong, somehow.

>> No.29966390
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29966390

>>29966379

>> No.29966394
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29966394

>>29966286
I guess since the entirety of Asia is Lamellar. Just got better when they wore chain underneath lamellar.
>>29966303
>It was commonly worn over a type of chainmail, I believe.
Or over padding, like what the pre-chainmail Chinese and Middle East/Steppe People did did.

>> No.29966398

>>29966352
That's what I've been trying to explain to these retarded chucklefucks this entire time.

The perfect backup weapon is a weapon that can do anything.

Swords are so goddamn versatile. With proper skill you can take on sword fighters, axemen, pikemen, spearmen...

Sure, you're at an disadvantage say, if you're fighting a spearman with a sword.
But swords are jack-of-all-trades, turn that sword around, and now you can hook that spear away.

That's why a sword is "just a backup weapon". Because a weapon with no big advantage is also a weapon with no big disadvantage.

The ultimate equalizer.

>> No.29966400
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29966400

>>29966390

>> No.29966408

>>29966382
If you don't understand my point, it's maybe time for you to read a book on military history.

>> No.29966411
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>>29966400

>> No.29966418
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>>29966411

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>>29966418

>> No.29966444
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>>29966432

>> No.29966456
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>>29966444

>> No.29966464
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>>29966456

>> No.29966467

>>29966408
>If you don't understand my point, it's maybe time for you to read a book on military history.

I like how you're always the dude accusing others of being ignorant while the people you're arguing with are the ones actually posting historical sources and shit.

>> No.29966477
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>>29966464

>> No.29966484
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>>29966477

>> No.29966495
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>>29966484

>> No.29966509
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>>29966495

>> No.29966519
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>>29966509

>> No.29966520

>>29966398
>Keeps saying "just a backup weapon" like it's a bad thing
>Says: "The real knights weapon was the mace, the lance, the warhammer."
>Compares swords to service pistols, weapons so useless that soldiers don't even bother carrying them any more
>OH BLOO BLOO BLOO WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP ASSUMING I'M SHITTING ON SWORDS WHEN I SHIT ON SWORDS!!???

That guy who keeps telling you that you're failing at conveying your point might just be onto something.

>> No.29966524
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29966524

>>29966519

>> No.29966531

>>29966524
and I'm out of warmachines, I think.

I hope you all learned an important lesson from all this.

>> No.29966559
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>>29966303

>> No.29966798

>>29966206

by that logic every weeaboo on this thread is Japanese. I congratulate you sir, for it is a rare opportunity to see such a glorious chucklefuck of a derp.

>> No.29967173

>>29960406
If his character intends to carve up unarmoured peasants then he's very correct.

>> No.29967202

>>29961181
With a longer pike.

>> No.29967452
File: 465 KB, 1152x1536, 1211379374160.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29967452

Crucible Steel here.

Giving you modern quality purity in your steel before you nailed a Jew to a cross and named a day after his rotting corpse. Pleb Welding and homogenous steel processes need to get the fuck out. Only plebs without proper alchemy knowledge would use pleb welding to mask the fact your steel is full of shit, and homogenous steel was only used for mass production purposes. It took a long time to develop better tempering and hardening processes for homogenous steel swords to reach the quality crucible steel makes in it's sleep.

Using anything else is like wiping your ass with your face.

>> No.29967454

>>29964407
>not dat dickshibbing on the pike charge.
If there is ever a game with that combat it should be first person. With QTE to swear in spanish.
>>29962579
Generally alatriste was pretty good for a spanish movie.

>> No.29967466
File: 729 KB, 1436x2521, iron.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29967466

>>29961445
>>When you don't have the plethora of iron that Europe had, your mass produced armor consists of mainly wood and leather plates, since you don't want to waste precious iron.
>had enough iron for generations of warfare
>had enough iron to modernize to european standards within a very short space of time
>had enough to build entire fleets of battleships including the Yamato
Yeah, no

>> No.29968137

>>29967454
>Generally alatriste was pretty good for a spanish movie.

Not really. They had this idiotic idea to try to do ALL the books in one movie, it made the plot incomprehensible except to fans.

Kinda the reverse Hobbit move.

>> No.29969201

>>29963379
>since bamboo is shit
Nigga bamboo is indestructible. People in China use bamboo for scaffolding when they build fucking skyscrapers.

They do have real trees in Japan you know, this isn't some age of empires shit.

>> No.29969546

>>29965246
Assize of arms,1252. States that all men should be armed to a minimum standard as fits their income.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hdh4Elj-3WEC&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=assize+of+arms+1252&source=bl&ots=kCr1BcTWvQ&sig=Y-sSRXNvjBryFie7V9hKazCcesA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XoHuUqnbBtTy7AbjnoCYCQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=assize%20of%20arms%201252&f=false

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