/tg/ - Traditional Games

It's really weird seeing a meme in OOTS.

>>29459427
It's a play on the Dos Equis guy, but yeah.

>>29459427
I don't really think so. I mean, OOTS pretty much has always been a humor comic. I'm not surprised to see it.

Also, I appreciate in a setting with characters who are so storyline-conscious that the ship moves exactly at the speed of plot.

>>29459462
You seem dense.

>that pun

>>29459480
I think he doesn't consider it a meme because it's not from the Internet, or something.

>>29459480
No, I got it. I just choose to believe Burlew was referencing the commercial more than he was the internet meme spawned by it. Obviously it was both.

>>29459493
Really gnaws at you huh?

>>29459412
> dat last panel

I like it.

>>29459540
Fair enough. I'll take back what I said. You seem on the level.

good fake 0/10

>>29459635
How is it fake? Or do you mean, "I am dumb and don't know how to refresh my browser so still see the last comic strip instead"?

>>29459544
I don't get it.

That's nice. Can we please get back to Xykon and the goblins now?

>>29459635
Do you just post this in every OotS thread? Without even checking the site to see if it's the latest strip that's already been posted?
Are you a troll or just retarded?

>>29459696
Just brush up on your puns.

>>29459695
>>29459710
I think he's just referencing the wave of troll thread we had recently.

>>29459545
Fuck me I laughed

>>29459696
it's a pun you blockhead

>>29459696
Having a nerve giving you trouble is precisely the reason you get a root canal.

>>29459969
>explaining the joke

>>29460297
Kinda bites huh?

Yay, they're finally going to get out of the desert!

I'm guessing we'll probably see Tarquin vowing an unspecified revenge to set up his appearance later and maybe a switch over to Xykon for a bit.

>>29460375
I guess it's just too much for some of us to swallow.

>>29460398
This guy knows the drill.

>>29460393
I think most of /tg/ is hoping that he turns up at the end, only to get taken out like a bitch.

>>29460675

Really? I kind of liked him. I'm just hoping he gets to sit out the rest of the story.

>>29460461
Maybe now they can finally get back to the roots of the plot

>>29459702
>>That's nice. Can we please get back to Xykon and the goblins now?
>>Can we please get back to the goblins now?

>>29460675
Tarquins my favorite character, second only to miko.

Apparently I'm not supposed to like either.

>>29461118
>liking Miko
How can you? She was honestly one of the most infuriating characters in any comic I've read. Incredibly well written, but so irritating. I have some problems with Burlew but Miko was one hell of a piece of work.

>>29461136
Either he doesn't get why Miko was bad, or he recognizes that Miko was infuriating but likes her as a character due to being well-written.

Judging by "Apparently I'm not supposed to like either" it's probably the former, though.

>>29461136

>"She annoyed me so she's a bad character"
>mfw

Personally I like Roy the most. I like his mix of being likeable but fallible and flawed yet still sensible

Miko was a great character though. The fact that she could piss off so many people is proof of this.

>>29460839
Jaw getting ahead of yourself.

>>29461234
>Miko was a great character though. The fact that she could piss off so many people is proof of this.
Honestly, this is exactly what I said in the post you linked to. Did you actually read it?

>>29461118
>>29461136
>>29461182
>>29461234

Is it wrong if I love Belkar?

>>29461313
No.
He is the reflection of everyone's inner murderhobo.

>>29461334
He's what murder hobos should be; funny, endearing and a consummate badass.

>>29461313
No...? He's a fun murderhobo in an otherwise relatively ramrod-straight group.

Ain't that the tooth?

>>29461313
The author's stated himself that Elan and Belkar are his favorite characters, so I'd say "no".

>>29461297

I misread it actually. But yes I agree with you. Let's just say my greentext is related to when I hear people say stuff like that otherwise.

>>29461118
Please. The GITP forums only started hating him when he killed Nale. After that, it was get-on-the-hate-train-or-fuck-off. Still don't get why Nale was so loved. He was useless joke from the start.

>>29461430
I never liked Nale very much. He never seemed like a compelling character and he never really developed as a person. He was always just "evil blonde dude." Correct me if I'm wrong...

>>29461409
Eh, fair dos. I'm just glad I restrained my inner /b/tard from going full 'U WOT M8, AI'LL HOOK U IN UR GABBA!'.

>>29461430
I don't know, I always liked Nale. The thing is that all of his jokes about cliches were done far better by tarquin so I wasn't too sad to see him go.

>>29461463
>he never really developed as a person. He was always just "evil blonde dude.
True enough. The only time he felt like anything more than a default evil nemesis was the scenes with Malack and right before he was killed. When he argued with his dad just before he died though, that was damn good stuff.

>>29461430
>>29461463
I don't think that they liked Nale necessarily, so much as that Tarquin killed Nale for no logical reason, and then pinned all the blame on Nale for "forcing him to do it".

This doesn't make Tarquin very likeable. It's not the sort of stylish villainy they liked him for.

>>29461430
>Still don't get why Nale was so loved. He was useless joke from the start.

I found him to be funny myself. Plus without him we wouldn't have had Thog, who I find hilarious.

>>29461495

Technically, Tarquin's killing Nale was completely logical, even outside of the confines of Tarquin's moon-logic, it just wasn't very stylish.

Tarquin-Logic: An evil overlord's son has failed him. This is nothing new or exciting in their relationship, but this is a particularly BIG failure. Disappointed evil parents are one of the most lethal things in the narrative universe; Nale dies like a bitch for failing.

Real-Logic: Nale's continued existence was cauing some tension between Tarquin and his buddies because they wanted Nale dead and Tarquin would rather not do that. To try and work around it, he set up a chance for Nale to show he had something to bring to the table so he had an excuse to keep him around. Nale, being Nale, fucked it up like he always does before reaffirming he is never going to give it a rest or stop trying to undermine or usurp Tarquin. Tarquin, being a sociopath, has absolutely no reason to risk annoying his friends over his rejected affection for his son, and kills the moron who let Tarquin know there wasn't going to be any talking it out while said moron is a light tap away from death.

Team Tarquin's whole point is they seem stylish and reasonable at first, but Malack sums them up pretty well in his fight with Durkon.

>"...There can only be conflict between us now."
>"Aye."
>"THEN DIE."

Tarquin and his buddies are nice and stylish and reasonable WHEN SHIT'S GOING THEIR WAY. If that stops, you die, usually quite quickly.

Tarquin is still a much better bad guy than Nale, though, so I think most of it is just the people that assumed Nale was going to stick around because Elan didn't have the balls to kill him were butthurt he got shanked like a bitch.

>>29460988

Got bored, made a little somethin' for y'all.

what if bandana mage guy bailed on Tarquin because he'd seen just how much he'd lost the plot?

>>29461486
>>29461463

Really I think that's the only reason I got annoyed when Tarquin killed him off, and I think it's a really clever stroke on Burlew's part. Having never really developed him before, he realized that Nale's death wouldn't carry much weight, so he started to deepen his character just a bit so that we could see that there might actually be something underneath him, then BOOM. Murdered. In the middle of one of his few character defining scenes.

>>29461136
I found her entire character concept to be completely believable.
She was recruited straight from a dojo, told that the gods had a plan for her then excluded by her supposed allies and neglected by an adopted father figure (who openly mocked her while she was being stripped of her powers).

That and I like grimdark settings, nothing she did was incorrect when it comes to dealing with the insidious (and sentient) forces of evil and a ten minute pow wow with her forgiving lord after he was resurrected would have set her ass straight on the path to redemption (even if rich was just using her as an example of lawful stupid).

>>29461773
Bandana mage doesn't seem like the kind of guy who cares if tarquin has lost the plot, I'm surprised laurin didn't bail earlier though considering she seems pretty pacifist and unwilling to indulge tarquin.

I'm looking forwards to an extra chapter with roy going at it with shoulder pads guy.

>>29462139
>Bandana mage doesn't seem like the kind of guy who cares if tarquin has lost the plot
Maybe, but he might bail if he thinks Tarquin's going to get them all killed.

this is the 101st page of this day
a-are we finally getting off namek?

>>29460988
I love Tarquin as a character, and I'm still really fucking ready to move on now.
He's basically trying to hijack the plot, willfully and with some success. And while I appreciate and find interest in the idea of Elan being a more nuanced character with his own trials and backstory, Tarquin's whole deal just isn't as interesting as a world ending snarl and the quest to stop the pantheon's destruction.
I guess it would be more interesting if he were trying to get involved, but the only thing he wants to get involved with is Elan.
I'd honestly rather we go back to the Snarl and try to get that story wrapped up, and then wrap up Tarquin's storyline either immediately before or after that climax.

Back when Malack was still alive, I honestly thought what was going to happen was that he and another Mage were going to hijack the Snarl plot at the end for no other reason than Tarquin thought that would an epic and expected way to go out. And it would.
Now, I don't know, where do we go from here? Tarquin's whole deal seems to be that he wants to be the villain, but comes on too strong and overstays his welcome. Which is fascinatingly meta if it's intentional.
What will he do now? It seems like the only way to 'win' against him now is to somehow give him an ignoble death. I'm interested to see how it will resolve, but I'm more than glad to be done with it for now.

>>29462179
It looks like Mr Tarquin's wild ride is finally over
but now they're on the boat

>>29462139
Miko could never have been redeemed no matter what she did, that requires a cleric on hand to cast Atonement. So that one ghost at her death scene was just fucking with her by implying that redemption without spells was even possible.

One act generally isn't enough to cause an alignment shift anyway, even if it leads to a class fall. So she's still probably going to Celestia after death. It's all good.

>>29462217
Given how insane he's recently become, I wouldn't put it past him to try and hijack the plot from Xykon.

>>29462253
>One act generally isn't enough to cause an alignment shift anyway, even if it leads to a class fall. So she's still probably going to Celestia after death. It's all good.

Given that she was a judgmental, self righteous bitch her entire life, it might have been the straw that broke the Camel's back.

>>29462139

I believe the author said at one point that Miko was already an adult, and, more importantly, already MIKO by the time she joined the Paladins.

Which means they went out of their way to avoid her because she was a bitch, not that she was a bitch because they went out of their way to avoid her, and Shojo was likely getting close to feigning senility by the time she joined up.

Also, she was being a kind of shitty paladin letting her rage over a snub from the order distort her execution of her duties. If she had worked against Belkar alone, that would be one thing, but she twisted the facts to make Roy the bad guy in everything that happened to her because Roy made her feel bad despite being Lawful Good. Paladins that let their grudges guide their swords and murder unarmed and unresisting opponents completely incapable of threatening them deserve to fall and fall hard.

>>29462179
Looks like it.

I don't think this was as bad as the Dead Roy arc. That felt like it dragged so much worse.

>>29462179
>7 or 8 in-comic days to get out
well, see you guys back here in number 1644 when this arc is finally over

>>29462307
She clearly never committed an evil act until that point, otherwise she'd have fallen before. It's the Good is Not Nice principle.

Also, she should have fucking killed Belkar.

>>29462402
Before, she was an unpleasant person that was pointed in the right direction.
She didn't do good deeds because it was the right thing to do, she did good things to satisfy her ego.

After crossing the line, combined with a life of being generally unpleasant and refusing to accept the mere possibility of being wrong, she probably got downgraded to neutral.

>>29462498
Doing good things to satisfy your ego doesn't qualify for a good alignment, your motives have to be pure two. Hers were, she was just rude about them.

ok everyone
Favorite order member
Favorite other character
Favorite running gag
Favorite quote

Durkon
Lord Shojo
Belkar converting kobold heads to something useful
not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail.

Oglaf's sure is dildos today.

>>29462578
Blackwing
Xykon
Belkar trolling by pretending to be good
See pic

>>29461495
He killed his best friend, and greatly damaged his plans. At that point, the only thing keeping Nale alive was Tarquins charity. Nale requested Tarquin remove his charity, so he did. How is that illogical?

>>29462498
Nah, she did good deeds because that was her job. She didn't go out kill evil badguys and give money to orphans because she really was altruistic from her heart or to satisfy her ego, but because that's part of her duties as a paladin of the sapphire order. She was a monk first after all, and monks in 3.x have to learn discipline and duties.

>>29462578
Roy
Xykon
Xykon forgetting Roy's name
"I tell you, Ugly, nothing's funnier than false hope. You really thought you had a chance there for a second. I mean, sure, I could've just blasted you from above with fire and lightning and such... but I've always felt that when it's really important, it's worth it to go the extra mile. Don't you agree?"

>>29462578
>Favorite order member
That is tough. Belkar is the funniest, particularly around V, but I think Roy's the best all round.

>Favorite other character
Again, it's a tie really. I can never decide if Redcloak or Xykon is better. When they eventually go head to head, it's going to be the most important part of the comic for me.

>Favorite running gag
Belkar and the Cat.

>Favorite quote
"And once again, Probability proves itself willing to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper-piece harlot"
-V

>>29462643
>>29462698
it was a really tough choice between shojo and xykon, but this is probably because I haven't read start of darkness yet, and I heard he's ridiculously more awesome as a result
so it would probably tip the balance to his favor if I bought it

>>29462498
>After crossing the line, combined with a life of being generally unpleasant and refusing to accept the mere possibility of being wrong, she probably got downgraded to neutral.
I doubt that being a grouch is what makes you neutral. Durkon was grouchy when he had to work with humans and their shit beer that tastes like moose urine, and he is and was still the most lawful good person in the whole comic (he might perhaps still be good even as a vampire).

Miko did one bad thing because she was cuckoo and thought that her liege was a bad guy working with other bad guys going behind the backs of the sapphire order (of which his very own nephew is part of). That will be counted against her, but she'll still be able to enter Mount Celestia. If Roy Greenhilt who actually works with midget psychopath Belkar and who goes around beheading sleeping goblins and let a doofus Bard be abducted by bandits can enter Mount Celestia, so will she. At the worst, she might have to spend some time outside of the gates to contemplate her one deed that made her lose her paladin powers, but that's it.

>>29462578
Best order member depends on who they're paired off with. Belkar and V make the best comedy when they're bickering. I'll go with Belkar, just because he's got the best knack for pissing other people off, and getting good reactions.

Outside the Order, I've got to go with the Dire Cockroaches, or whatever they are. The Monster and Shojo are good too, though, and so is Miko in an Eric Sparrow love-to-hate-them kind of way.

Running gag? I guess Banjo the Puppet-God.

I honestly don't have a favorite quote. There's a lot of good shit in there.

>>29460688
I liked Tarquin, but he wore out his welcome, and ironically fell to his own trappings.

A villain that spends too much time on screen trying to kill the main characters will eventually fail. If Tarquin could look at the bigger picture outside of himself, then he would have realized that

>>29462139
>neglected by an adopted father figure (who openly mocked her while she was being stripped of her powers).
You forgot to mention that was after she wouldn't listen to reason and killed him

>>29462801
Being a grouch was a bad example. Miko's problem was that she was genuinely psychotic.

She had no perception of what it actually MEANT to be a paladin, and what her duties should be other than smiting evil NO MATTER WHAT and brooking no divergence from law NO MATTER WHAT. She performed plenty of evil acts, but it was against evil creatures so was in a morally grey zone.

Instead of helping her, the entirety of Azure City would rather just limit how much damage she could do - Instead of trying to teach, they shunned her. This made her situation worse. Way worse. When she discovered that her liege was being downright ingeniously deceptive, she snapped again - He was pretending to be a useless worm, but that's better than acting CHAOTIC.

And so she finally did what she usually does - Burn and kill - but against someone honestly good, with good reasons for what he does, and who meant neither her nor his kingdom harm. She fell. Hard.

>>29463257
Actually, committing evil acts against evil creatures is still evil and will still lead to your ass falling. She never did one evil thing until killing Shojo.

>>29463299
>committing evil acts against evil creatures is still evil
I don't think it is according to the DnD alignment guides. The paladins lead crusades against the goblins and wiped out villages of women and children but didn't fall.

>>29463329
All the paladins who butchered goblin children did fall.

>>29463329
In that case, Burlew's universe is operating by different rules than D&D, so I can't say anything.

>>29463347
No they didn't. I'm actually looking at the pages in SoD where it happens. No falling.

>>29463348
I've not played much DnD so I wouldn't know.

>>29463348
If I remember SoD correctly Goblins were created by the gods to be walking chunks of xp for good adventurers, meaning that you could kill even innocent ones without any repercussions.

>>29463377
Rich Burlew said that any paladin killing goblin children did fall. It just wasn't shown because it wasn't important, and the scene was from the perspective of Right-Eye and Redcloak, who won't stay back to watch a bunch of blue guys in a gray prequel comic turn gray.

>>29462578
Belkar, Xykon, never thought much about it, Xykon's speech on Power.

>>29463427
I'm sorry, but I'm sceptical. Do you remember where he said that? It just seems so out of line with the plan the gods had for goblins as revealed in SoD.

>>29463348
there is at least some house rules going on confirmed in the comic

>>29463465
On the Giant in the Playground message boards, when people asked him about that very scene.
Unfortunately, the sysadmin disabled the search function, but one could still get the same response from Rich Burlew if asking him if killing the goblin children in Start of Darkness lead to paladins falling or not.

>>29463536
I'll have a look around and try and make a point of asking him about it if there's an opportunity on the forum.

>>29462578
Elan
O-Chul
Flumphs
Xykon's speech to Dorukan in Start of Darkness

>>29463552
There's a thread on the boards that keeps a record of his quotes about various topics that are likely to come up. That quote is definitely included.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313510

>>29463615
True. Here's the post where he talks about that scene.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8081896&postcount=21

>>29459412
>>29459545
This is seriously dumb. A wand of CLW heals the same for less money.

>>29463615
>The characterization is consistent all the way through—including the part where he talks himself up to be the central character in his group's history.
Huh, I never considered that Tarquin could be exaggerating his role in the team.
His recent actions make much more sense.

>>29462139
>neglected by an adopted father figure (who openly mocked her while she was being stripped of her powers).

Yes.

BECAUSE SHE HAD LITERALLY CUT HIM NEARLY IN HALF NOT A MOMENT BEFORE. HE SAID THAT WITH HIS DYING BREATH.

>>29463691
I still think he uses it fairly ambiguously. Maybe some of them crossed the line, is what he said. So perhaps you can kill goblin females and infants and not fall. I don't know, but I'm sorry for doubting you, glorious anon.

>>29463755
It's all a conspiracy to get us to spend more I tell you!
Same shit with the ladder and the ten foot poles!

>>29462578
Roy
Redcloak
Tsukiko yanking Red's chain, the payoff was perfect.

"Your approval fills me with shame."

>>29463796
Perhaps all of the Sapphire Guard warriors that wore armor and who killed goblin females and children were fighters who tried to get approved into the order and earn their first paladin level. Can't fall as a fighter, and as long as you're lawful goodish, you can still become a paladin (although paladins in 3.x are seriously a weak-sauce class, and their prestige comes mostly from older editions, where paladins were better fighters than fighters, and rolling a paladin was a feat by itself).

However, as said, in the end, it's not really important to show them fall. The Sapphire Guard still killed the bearer of the crimson mantle and all goblins who were present, this still lead to Redcloak and Right-Eye hating the humans for killing their family and hurting Right-Eye, and them seeking an ultimately disastrous alliance with the sorcerer Xykon.

Does it mean I'm not a special snowflake if Roy is my favorite character?

>>29464128
No, why would you be? I think everyone like Roy quite a lot.

>>29463755

Marketing, anon.

>>29463755
Not everyone can use magic wands.
Potion can be given away.
If you send a couple of scouting parties you should have enough wands for all of them. What if they split up?
I have a fetish for alchemy.

>>29464128
While Belkar and V are the inner Murderhobos in all of us, Hayley is the greedy bastard we've all played, and Elan represent who we once were when we were new to the game, Roy represents the guy we want to be;
The suboptimal guy who gets shit done with brains and roleplaying.

>>29463329
While Goblins comic may depict in differently, in D&D, at least in the beginning, all goblinoids were inherently evil.
The goblin gods were evil gods, and all goblins did evil things..
Killing goblins, orcs, and any other evil monster is a good act.

>>29463755

Hence why the brewer needs to advertise - to make up for the relative lack of hp potions provide, he has to market it as a luxury good that only the most dashing adventurers use.

Like those weaksauce eurostank man-fumes like Lynx or Axe or whateveer it's called.

>>29464328
>killing innocents with the capacity for evil is a good act
Pretty sure not all the good gods of the pantheon agree on that one.

>>29464322
>V being our inner murderhobo
>not V being our inner super-optimized sperglord full-caster

>>29464371
>V
>Optimized
Tell me another one.

>>29464365
>goblins
>innocent

>>29464421
The babies aren't innocent?
Perhaps they give them the human babies to murder?

>>29464371
>V
>Optimised
surely you jest?

>>29464446
You're mistaking goblin babies for something that has a choice regarding its alignment.

>>29464307
By Raw, you can't make healing potions through Alchemy. Which is bullshit, and any sane DM is going to houserule in a few potions.

>>29459412

Has that guy statted his metatextual trope-slinging PRCs? They seem like they might be actually fun.

>>29464407
>>29464457
We try to optimize, but overall we're not very bright.

>>29464371
>V
>Evoker Caster
>Conjuration Barred
>Optimal
Durkon and Elan are the most optimal members of the party. Durkon is pretty good in a melee and has the Wisdom he needs- he's just not aggressive, which is a personality trait and apart from his build. Elan is not a skill monkey, but he DOES fulfill the other Bardic roles AND has a prestige class that allows him to use his Charisma even more.

>>29464504
I always assumed that tarquin is a huge mish-mash of non-casting PrC's with a fighter as his base.

>>29464614

I was thinking more about the sky pirate dude, who has actual powers based on puns and plot convenience at his disposal.

>>29464614
He's talking about the Dashing Swordsman, the class that Elan and Julien have.

>>29464592
>implying elan's PrC is optimal
He's losing out on spellcasting levels for a class feature that can be emulated by taking Snowflake Wardance.

>>29464647
http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Dashing_Swordsman

>>29464667
Elan's primarily a weak warrior because he's that stupid. He is so stupid, he forgets his very own class features.

>>29464690
>>29464667
correction
he's losing spell levels and taking suboptimal feats to get a class feature that's like snowflake wardance that only works on things that understand you.

>>29464690
I would never take more than 3 levels of that

>>29464857
Obviously its not the real class- where's the ability to arrive in the nick of time?

>>29464882
Was that supposed to be a class feature?
I thought it was just good roleplaying.

>>29464882
Dramatic Entrance. Plus, Julio's just-cited ability to only arrive in the nick of time seems to be connected to the Mechane traveling at the speed of plot rather than the PrC.

>>29464667
>Bard Spellcasting levels
>Worthwhile
Good one, anon.

>>29464938
Actually, bard spellcasting even with only core options is still good (the bard is the only spellcaster class in the PHB 1 to really become much better when adding supplements).

But Order of the Stick was written when 3.5 was new, everyone still thought that bards were only useless fifth-wheel characters, being an evocation-focused spellcaster wasn't actually that bad, a healbot could outlast enemies with their spontaneously converted spells, and being a greatsword-focused fighter with weapon focus/specialization/greater focus/greater specialization and power attack was totally the epitome of mundane melee guys, and nobody really understood the attacks of opportunity rules for provoking and shit.

>>29464938
>bard spells are useless

Are you sure you know what you're saying?

>>29464690
That's not canonical to the comic, that's somebody's homebrew.

>>29464925
>the Mechane traveling at the speed of plot
I love that ship.

>>29461313
Belkar is, as he said at the end of DStP, "The Only Funny Thing Left in the Damn Comic." Also, he's gotten a lot of development lately. I'm not even sure he's still evil.

>>29466246
He's still evil, but he's probably one major good act away from a neutral shift.
While he was a psychotic murderer for ages, it's because he genuinely didn't know any better.

>>29466246
He's still going to the lower planes once he dies, even if he's become neutral or good (extremely unlikely), simply because his evil acts put so much soul baggage on him literally. He would need to have an atonement cast on him by non-evil clerics and other spellcasters with that spell on their list and genuinely try to do some amends before.

>>29462217
I'm expecting a villain teamup with Xykon as so he can get back into the main plot.

>>29460675

Isn't there at least one other recurring villain who got unceremoniously killed by Xykon?

Because if Tarquin tried to do his metagaming Narative Causality bullshit on the Big X, he'd get disintegrated

>>29466449
Remember that Tarquin once called Xykon Zyklon.
He probably has spells that detect that sort of shit.
Tarquin getting killed for the purpose of a running joke would also be a good way of mocking his delusions of plot relevance.

>>29466449
Xykon looks like he actually digs that whole Narrative Causality stuff. He told Roy Greenhilt to go on some adventures and level up and become a better fighter, so that they can duke it out like bad-asses.

Of course, Xykon would only do that because he's bored with his undead existence, and does away with boredom by killing things for fun, and if Tarquin and his group came at an inopportune moment where Xykon was really bored, he might attack them.

There is a chance however that Tarquin's adventuring group might be epic themselves, albeit low-epic (probably only up to level 24 at most).

>>29466449
Can't think of one offhand. I know Tsukiko got whacked by Redcloak without fanfare.

>>29461234

Whenever my characters wind up as Party Leader, they wind up doing Roy's "Only Sane Man" shtick (when the party includes a Kenku kleptomaniac, an angel with Impulse Control issues, and a highly suggestible Elf archer, being the OSM isn't hard)

>>29466582
It was quite tragic. Her being drained and then devoured by her own beloved children (as sick as it is), and getting told by Redcloak what a moron she was and how he now is going to kill her and make sure she can't warn her beloved Xykon.

>>29466246
Belkar is still evil. He's just in permanent Survival mode right now, mainly because his HP are in the single-digit and he spend the last hours fighting epic-level fuckers.

>>29466609
Do you also have a badger with a troubled past and nothing left to lose, an Elephant who never forgets…To kill! Or a rarely used crab?

>>29466634
I'm still convinced that Xykon can see the backstab coming, he just doesn't give sufficient fucks about it at the moment to waste a useful minion.
The hidden phylactery though, maybe not.

>>29464667
>implying he has access to Frostburn
>implying he has six ranks in Perform (dance)

>>29461118
You're allowed to like them, you're just not allowed to think they're good people.

>>29467041
Miko's a good person

>>29464797
I think we all know somebody like that.

>>29467070
It's even worse when one remembers that bards can fight or cast spells after singing. Elan only sings, or only fights, or only casts spells during combat.

>>29467123
Come to think of it, have we ever seen him walk and chew bubblegum at the same time?

>>29459465
>I don't really think so. I mean, OOTS pretty much has always been a humor comic. I'm not surprised to see it.
The thing is, oots is an actual HUMOR comic not a "tired old meme comic that isn't actually funny".
Its a common misconception, but memes aren't humor and repeating them isn't funny

>>29466668

Not quite. That would have been the Ninja School for Animals game

>>29460988
wrong goblins, he obviously meant the OOTS goblins not the comic called Goblins

>>29461313
Belkar is awesome, my favorite character too.
Roy is boring

>>29466396
I'm not sure it works like that in the comic setting

after all roy primarily got into lawful good heaven because he was trying to be lawful good

if belkar actively tried to go neutral he might make it despite his baggage

>past the dwarven lands even
>durkon returns home posthumously

anyone else see another side story incoming?

>>29467362
No. Deeds also matter. The Archon lady in the Heavens told Roy that him abandoning Elan on purpose (and unlike Miko, he was not crazy and deluded, but safe and sane in mind) was a serious offense grave enough that she was willing to push him towards the neutral planes. Belkar murdered tons of people and did enough unspeakable evil acts that his passage to the chaotic evil planes like Pandemonium, the Abyss, or Carceri is absolutely assured.

>>29467586
I imagine that he could be saved via an atonement spell. The problem is that he would ACTUALLY have to regret his actions, which I don't see as part of his transition to less murder-hobo. At least RAW he couldn't use his usual "pretend to be neutral when needed" trick.

>>29467586
I think he was being pushed to neutral good, not a true neutral plane IIRC.

>>29467586
Doubt the CN guys are as stuck up as the Lawful 'Good' opinionated bitches.

>>29467825
Wait, you were denying that she was good? She was definitely better than Roy.

>>29461615
There really was not anything unreasonable or immoral about Malack deciding to kill Durkon. There's only so much "I WILL MURDER YOU, AND WILL NEVER STOP TRYING TO MURDER YOU" anyone can take.

If snakerbeasty never mentioned he wants to set up a TURBO-SACRIFICE nation there wouldn't even be a reason to think he was evil.

>>29467825
The CN guys are a bunch of lolrandom frog people who don't really give a shit about souls, and don't go collecting them (heck, I don't even think that souls go to Limbo at all). Fiends on the other hand are totally interested in souls, and Belkar is evil by past deeds enough that his soul shell will become food for big bad tanar'ri demons.

Of course, perhaps instead of getting eaten by some fat winged pig-gorilla Nalfashnee demon, he might be taken in by Director Cecil and given an offer he can't refuse, like returning as a Babau stalking and murdering shit.

>>29468003
I think >>29467825 is talking about the outsiders in charge for petitioners.

>>29468054
I know, I was referring to the archon running the petitioner stand.

>>29467392
>past the dwarven lands even
>>durkon returns home posthumously
>anyone else see another side story incoming?


sheeeeeit

>>29462312
To be absolutely fair, its reasonable for Miko to take Roy as an agent of evil. He knew Belkar was a cold hearted murderer who would happily kill all his friends for no reason other than boredom. I'm not sure if he knows about Belkar killing innocents for the lulz, but its not exactly a stretch to assume that. As the party leader, he's morally responsible for Belkar's acts.

Its also true that the Order of the Stick have apparently caused more total deaths of innocents (or however you want to rate evil) than Xykon and friends have.

Plus she found out her liege was a lying dick who looked down on paladins.

That being said, Miko's so self absorbed, she's essentially a mini-Tarquin. Not in the sense of EVIL FOR THE SAKE OF EVIL, KILL FOR THE SAKE OF KILLING but "MUH NARRATIVE!!! AHM THE MAIN PROTAG/ANTAG!" and she essentially saved the greatest threat to the world as a result.

>>29463348
Nope. The whole "evil acts are good against evil people" thing is fanon. Neither the good alignment, nor the paladin's code, take the victim's alignment into account, only innocence.

"I MUST SMITE THE BABY" is auto fall territory.

Remember, 3e D&D's take on alignments is OBJECTIVE, not SUBJECTIVE. In other words, just because you SUBJECTIVELY feel it should be okay to kill kids, its still OBJECTIVELY bad.

>>29463961
Paladins can actually be deliciously awesome in 3.5 if you make use of their ACFs.

Sword of the Arcane Order lets you cast wizard spells of up to 4th level (Grease, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud and Black Tentacles work just fine as attack spells), you can get underdark stuff like earth glide or healing spirit stuff, and your paladin spells can be cast as a swift action with Battle Blessing. Revenance is a particularly nice one; being able to bring back two allies in one round potentially can come in handy.

None of this applies to OotS, obviously, but nobody is optimized in OotS-land.

>>29468741
I thought the fundamental problem with Paladins was that they need high scores in Strength, Wisdom, and Charisma plus good Constitution and decent Dexterity? It makes running anything but a gimped Paladin in point buy impossible and requires damn good luck when rolling for stats.

Personally, I've always thought that they should rely on either just Charisma or just Wisdom for abilities and spells.

>>29463757
Burlew's full of shit. I mean, I'm not saying that he's lying about his intention that Tarquin was exagerating his his role in his team all along. He's full of shit in claiming this is consistent with his characterization. We SEE him interacting with his team, and in every single scene page right up until he orders Roy killed his team treats him like he's first among equals. The fact is that we don't only see Tarquin's propaganda about himself, because Malak is right there the entire time and he acts like Tarquin's in charge, and when Laurin and Mirion show up they act like Tarquin's in charge. The only point when they start ignoring Tarquin and calling him out on his bullshit is when he starts acting stupid.

Burlew might have intended Tarquin to be the Elan of his team, but what he actually did was make him look like the Roy of his team. He's the guy in charge, blatantly, it's just that his party is willing to call him out on his bullshit, just like the Order of the Stick is willing to call Roy on his. I mean, it's not like Roy gets a lot of respect from Belkar, and yet Belkar ultimately still defers to Roy. That's the same thing we see with Tarquin.

Tarquin's actions only make sense if you see them as his own arrogance and control freak tendencies getting the better of him. Those flaws that were clearly established, and they caused him to get obsessed with an irrelevant detail and throw everything away the very moment after he got exactly what he wanted out of Elan: a promise that they were going to take him down hard after they were done with Xykon. All Tarquin needed after that was to arrange for the final showdown to be an epic duel between himself and Elan, and then it wouldn't have mattered who the fuck was team leader, but Tarquin's arrogance got the better of him, as it does many villains.

>>29468140

That's been on the cards
ever since Durkon got 'made'

>>29468838
Well, sticking to 3.x, Pathfinder does have them with just Charisma for their spells(and Divine Grace). Wisdom's pretty much a dump stat for them there.

>>29468838
I've found that if one of your stats falls short you just play the pally different
>low STR makes you a heallidin
>low wiz makes you a fighter with added utility
>low cha makes you GRIMDARK

>>29466396
Alignment in no way works like that.

Roy's alignment was vaguely in question for a little while because he was genuinely not acting good for a time.

"Moral baggage" doesn't exist for any of these purposes. Atonement is for when someone's willing to become good, but has no inherent capability for character development.

V is not going to the lower planes, and is in fact operating more morally than ever before. His evil acts could only drag him down if he didn't know he committed horrifying acts of evil.

Belkar probably is never going to cease to be evil, but he just might become neutral. Either way, if he experiences character development, his prior evil acts don't matter, as you don't go to the lower planes "for sins" (what a silly idea) but who you are personally.

The literal sole exception in all of 3rd edition is Tyrants of the Nine Hells, in which evil AND LAWFUL acts can drag you down into Hell regardless of your actual alignment, at which case you spend eternity unharmed but horribly bored in a dungeon in Dispater's plane and either way its probably not relevant.

>>29468838

There's a feat in Dragon magazine caled 'Serenity' that lets you key your non-spellcasting Paladin abilites (Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, etc) off Wisdom instead.

I've been trying to come up with a decent Paladin/Monk build with that and Ascetic Knight

>>29468979
Unharmed? Your soul is rendered down into component parts and what's left is used to make up a lemure. Though it's true, that is the sole exception and may not be the best example.

>>29466959
If I could get +Cha mod to attack and damage once, I may as well get +Cha mod to attack and damage twice.

>>29467586
You go to the plane that reflects who you are. Roy's act that pushed him towards the neutral planes did reflect on him as a person. Cold heartedly abandoning your friends to death because LOLRANDUMB HEHE BARDS SUK definitely reflects on who you are as a person.

If you perform a cold hearted dick move of genuine, incontrovertible dickery like abandoning your friend (who is nothing but a support character for your glory, no less) just because "Haha he's dumb, fuck him" there's no way you are good aligned.

>>29467586
>serious offense grave enough that she was willing to push him towards the neutral planes.
Wasn't she going to push him over to Neutral Good? Neutral Good isn't really any worse an afterlife than Celestia.

>>29468838
Oh yeah, I'd never dispute that they're MAD as fuck, even in a best case scenario.

I just pump Charisma, use Polymorph for physical stats, and channeling for mental stats.

>>29469043

>lemures

Not a lemure, but yes, unharmed.

Tyrants of the Nine Hells, which directly defines Hell as working differently from other alignment planes (evil and lawful acts can drag you to Hell regardless of your real alignment), ALSO states that non-LE people that wind up in Hell are kept safe and sound (but terminally bored and likely miserable) in a donjon in Dispater's realm. Same as Shadow Sun Ninjas who get replaced with a vampire-self.

Again, this is for if you're dragged down WITHOUT actually being lawful evil.

>>29469267
"The Neutral Planes," not "The Neutral Plane," ergo lawful, neutral, and chaotic.

Abandoning a friend to die out of your own pure, unadulterated dickery isn't a Neutral Good act, sorry.

>>29469360
so what happens when a Pally gets dragged down, cant think that they'd be ok with living in hell

>>29459540
Looked odd to me too. Using that classic meme font (impact?) was what did it.

>>29469412
Probably something like when a cop or guard gets sent to prison.

>>29469412
How does a paladin commit numerous evil acts without falling? A fallen paladin isn't evil, necessarily, but he's not really a paladin anymore.

That being said, petitioners lose all their power, so he'd just be another damned soul unable to do jack shit but bear witness to eternal, unstoppable, everlasting evil.

>>29469508
>(evil and lawful acts can drag you to Hell regardless of your real alignment)

>>29469552
>regardless of your real alignment
If you commit enough or a big enough acts contrary to your alignment . . . your alignment changes.

>>29469552
The paladin falls for performing evil acts, though. Have you ever read the class writeup?

>>29469621
Yeah, but you can go to Hell without your alignment changing.

A paladin that does evil acts still falls, tho.

>>29469381
It doesn't mean it's a neutral good act, but it means that it's enough to push a guy out of lawful territory.

>>29469631
Or for breaking the Paladin's Code (which would be Chaotic, or at least, non-Lawful)

>>29469631
>and lawful
>if you commit evil and lawful acts you go to hell
if you are forced into committing an evil act and atone, then go and do the usual lawful stuff a pally does; you could still be sent there

>>29469658
I'm 100% certain it was also risking pushing him out of good territory on account of betraying a true friend.

Basically all the main characters experience a trial by fire of their alignment (except Haley) in OotS, which is pretty cool.

>>29469719
Oh I see. Yeah, atonement nullifies your corruption points, so that keeps you out of Hell.

>>29469804
so then couldn't a Necromancer avoid going to hell if he pulls a Constantine and atones at the last possible moment, so long as he truthfully wishes to atone regardless of how many corruption points he has 'achieved'?

>>29469804
>keeps you out of Hell.
are you guys just applying Christianity to D&D? Because in D&D cosmology doesn't work that way.

>>29462632
Fucking saved, going straight into my /tg/ folder to be posted whenever I don't have a more relevant image.

>>29469905
Yes.

>>29462258
This.
Xykon needs a distraction to give the team time to get shit done, this would be the perfect way.

>>29469905
A necromancer, as long as he was loyal to his evil god, will receive eternal rewards, not eternal torment.
Getting hit with an atonement changes his alignment, not what the gods think of him. The good gods will punish him for his evil deeds, the evil gods will punish him for his betrayal. And both will punish him for disloyalty to his god because he is shifting religion in the last moment

OOTS works on a different cosmology than standard D&D.

>>29470030
That's not... entirely true. Evil gods will sometimes shelter their petitioners, but, being evil, it's finicky and you sometimes get dropped into fiend pits. Also, if you make it into a good-aligned plane, you won't be punished there; they're good, they don't do that.

>>29465154
Anyone ever play that Libris Mortis dirge Bard class? I've always wanted to, but my old group was more interested in demons and angels than undead and now I don't have a group anymore.

>>29470076
ok true, a lot of the evil gods are total assholes and punish everyone.

>Also, if you make it into a good-aligned plane, you won't be punished there; they're good, they don't do that.
The good gods are under no obligation to take you to a good aligned planes.
I don't know what happens in eberron but in forgotten realms they are explicitly stated to not claim you if you didn't adhere to their ethos, even if you converted in the last moment. Instead leaving you unclaimed to be taken by demons or otherwise have a horrible afterlife

>>29470136
Forgotten Realms has a bullshit alignment system, and the entire pantheon needs to be thrown down.

>>29470171
yes...
Also, I looked up what happens in eberron:
http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Dolurrh
Everyone, no matter how good or evil, ends up in the same hell

>>29470030
There's nothing standard D&D about "evil gods rewarding you eternally," a lot of books contradict that and I don't know of any that remotely clearly state that evil gods give rewards.

>>29470136
FR good gods are not examples of how good beings are supposed to operate. They are selfish, whimsical and cruel.

I think you're getting that from Frank Trollman's take on things, and his ideas are cool but often non canon (like his limits put on Wish).

>>29470240
So which D&D campaign setting do you want to consider instead of forgotten realms?
Eberron? everyone goes to hell
Ravenloft? all the gods are super evil
Dark sun? all souls end up in another hell http://darksun.wikia.com/wiki/Gray

>>29469920
>are you guys just applying Christianity to D&D? Because in D&D cosmology doesn't work that way.

Bullshit. You go to the plane of your alignment.

Atonement changes your alignment.

The sole exception is Tyrants of the Nine Hells, in which you can be dragged there regardless of alignment, but Atonement counters it as well.

>>29469905
The Hellbred race exists in FC 2 for literally that exact purpose.

>>29470303
>Bullshit. You go to the plane of your alignment.
Bullshit, name one setting where this is the case.

>>29470296

>So which D&D campaign setting do you want to consider instead of forgotten realms?

Any other than Ed Greenwood's magical realm.

As to the others, there's a fucking huge difference between souls going to what is essentially a neutral boring afterlife, and being plunged into eternal torture by petulant and sadistic gods because you didn't want to worship them.

As to Ravenloft, the gods aren't evil, they only debatably exist.

Remember, being bored and apathetic forever is incredibly different from being eternally tortured.

>>29470296
Doh, almost forgot about greyhawk which is the "default" campaign setting..

Cosmology and the Afterlife
http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/13288/what-happens-to-you-after-you-die-in-dd-3-5

Where non believes cease to exist, and LOYAL believes reform in their DEITY's plane NOT in a generic ALIGNMENT plane.

>>29470296
Greyhawk, that sounds all right. Or Points of Light.

>>29470332
All that use the Planescape/Great Wheel cosmology (basically all default settings), minus the ones that have a nice grey boring afterlife for everyone, minus super sadism land of FR.

>>29470439
>Points of Light.
My niggah!

>>29470402
> there's a fucking huge difference between souls going to what is essentially a neutral boring afterlife, and being plunged into eternal torture by petulant and sadistic gods because you didn't want to worship them.
>I don't think eternal boredom and sensory deprivation as my very soul dissolves into nothingness is torture
1. Sensory deprivation is a torture.
2. I was arguing against the bullshit claim of "good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell". Everyone goes to the same place in half the settings. While in the other half your options are between a mild hell or being claimed by your deity if it wants you for whatever it wants you (generally those go better for good deities, but sometimes an evil deity can treat you well if you do well)

>>29470453
>>29470439
>All that use the Planescape/Great Wheel cosmology
Wrong, in not a single one of them do you go to heaven if good aligned and hell if evil aligned.
All great wheel cosmology punishes the non believes, and each god has its own afterlife domain it might choose to take a loyal worshipper into instead of an alignment based heaven.

>>29470438
That's a cool idea for a houserule, but not the default setting, ever since 1e the rule has been you go to the plane based on your alignment.

The whole "unbelievers cease to exist" is an FRism.

>>29470582
show me where it says that.
Everyone I found on google supports what I linked.
It could be that its all shit regurgitating the same false info. But if that is the case you should have no problem producing a 1e document showing to the contrary... or any edition for that matter.
PS. I never managed to find pdfs of anything earlier than AD&D aka 2e

>>29470502
>1. Sensory deprivation is a torture.

They're not sensory deprivation.

>>29470539

>Wrong, in not a single one of them do you go to heaven if good aligned and hell if evil aligned.

Read the 1e AD&D player's handbook.
Read Planescape.
Read Manual of the Planes (any).

>All great wheel cosmology punishes the non believes,

You are taking FR's afterlife and injecting it where it doesn't belong. Stop that.

>>29470296
Dragonlance is pretty decent in terms of afterlives, but it also has a pretty nonstandard cosmology.

>>29470539
Someone doesn't know how Greyhawk works.

>>29470650
>Read the 1e AD&D player's handbook.
1. where the fuck am I expected to find this?
2. how about you show a more recent edition that supports your claim

>>29470706
this someone apparently is "the entire internet". I am still waiting on any of your spergs to produce a source countering the sources I provided.

>>29470740
>where the fuck am I expected to find this?
It's the internet.

Get creative.

>>29470650
>Read the 1e AD&D player's handbook.
>1e
>AD&D
AD&D is 2e

>>29470706

Forgotten Realms is better.

Mostly because it's post Not!World-War 2.

>>29470787
I searched the pirate bay, where I have gotten collections of 4e, 3.5e, pathfinder, 3e, and 2e.
I could not find 1e.

How about you just post a picture of the relevant page?

>>29470740
>2. how about you show a more recent edition that supports your claim

I just listed 1e, 2e, and 3e. In 4e, alignment doesn't have cosmic significance (other than Chaotic Evil, which is a cancer on the universe) and features the usual grey boring afterlife for almost everyone.

Go ahead and grab Manual of the Planes.

We're still waiting on you to provide a source, btw.

>>29470846
How about I NOT do your work for you?

>>29470806
>AD&D is 2e

So much in the way of clueless kids in this thread. There's AD&D 1e and AD&D 2e.

>>29470846
Then go ahead and check 3.5 or 2e.

>>29469458
yup.

>>29470913
I have 270 books in my 3.5e folder and 26 books in my AD&D2 folder.
I will stick to the countless results on google which I based my claim on anyways. (I explicitly said I didn't know and will look it up, and then I did, on google)

If it is wrong, well tough shit, I am not combing through 296 books

>>29471029

So instead of reading the Manual of the Planes, you go by the random ramblings of the uninformed. Nicely done.

>>29471029
Lots of books state this, to the point that you'd have to be dense not to notice it, but Complete Divine states it in the most clear and concise way: you go to the home plane of your deity if you have one (note: you must be within one step of your deity) or the home plane of your alignment if not.

>>29462578
>Favourite order member
Probably Belkar. Funniest guy, rides a tyrannosaur

>Favourite other character
Either Xykon or Shojo.

>Favourite running gag
Flumphs. I miss them.

>Favourite quote
"It's not just about power, it's also about how far you're willing to debase yourself before feeling bad. I ripped off my own living flesh so that I wouldn't have to admit weakness. You're strictly little league compared to that. That right there? That's the difference between bonafide true Evil with a capital "E" and your whiny "evil, but for a good cause," crap. One gets to be the butch, and one gets to be the bitch — Bitch."

>>29471203
except they don't. I searched through plausible sounding ones before even posting and there is no mention of afterlife.

>>29471085
You are an asshole
but at least you provided useful information
>Manual of the Planes
this reduces the amount of books from 296 to 1.

Lets search that pdf for the word afterlife...
>P84: Depending on how you're handling the
afterlife in your cosmology (see Chapter 7), the Inner Planes may have their own petitioners with appropriate immunities.
>Depending on how you're handling the
afterlife
Well that is vague as fuck

>P88: The third major group inhabiting the Outer Planes is the spirits of the dead. Material Plane creatures who have died can go to the Outer Planes for final judgment and/or great reward. Whether spirits of the dead wind up on the Outer Planes depends on how you view your cosmology and what your game needs to make it work.
So again, it says its up to the DM.

more to come in next post

>>29471257
>You are an asshole

Hey, people deserve to be treated as they treat others.

>>29471257 cont
>Page 89
>Cosmologies can use the Outer Planes as the “final reward” or “eternal punishment” for the mortal creatures of the Material Plane. The nature of this reward/punishment is up to the individual Dungeon Master; it's one of the most basic questions you'll answer when you create your own cosmology.
>Here are a few other options for what happens to the
spirits of the dead.
>Dead characters pass through the Outer Planes, where they are judged by their deities
>Joining: The spirits of the dead join with their deities
so, two example ideas on what to do which explicitly states its the deity's choice, NOT where you go where your alignment says you should.
>Fusion: The spirits of the dead join the Outer Planes themselves, becoming part of the morphic landscape.
>Unknown: No one knows what happens to the spirits of the dead, not even deities
And two bullshit choices.

Greyhawk is mentioned once only in that book, on p44
>Other Published Campaigns: Because every Material Plane can have its own cosmology, entering an alternate Material Plane is akin to moving into another world. The characters can travel to a unique world you've created yourself or one of the existing campaign worlds published by Wizards of the Coast. You may choose to send the characters through a portal connecting your home campaign to the world of Greyhawk. After they deal with the Temple of Elemental Evil, the characters can come back to their home Material Plane, sealing the gate behind them.

>>29471333
>Hey, people deserve to be treated as they treat others.
You didn't hurt my feelings you moron, you just made yourself look like a sperglord.

>>29471406
>made yourself look like a sperglord
Yes. Contrary to how you're making yourself look.

From the Planescape campaign setting, pp 48:

Petitioners on this plane are the spirits of the chaotic-evil. Most take the form of manes, the very lowest of the tanar’ri, though a few especially powerful or evil ones may begin their Abyssal existence as something more powerful. Being a mane isn’t so special, because more powerful fiends vent their bloodlust on these poor sods, sometimes slaying them in droves. But tanar’ri ain’t tanar’ri because they’re being punished or because of any other dim-sided reason some green prime has thought up. Here’s the real chant: Tanar’ri want to be tanar’ri, even if all they are is a lousy mane. Those who survive long enough may be transformed to more powerful forms, should a master find the need for such a servant. Raw, indomitable power’s all those sods care about, and the Abyss is the place to get it

>>29471406
Right, you are calling people "asshole, moron and sperglord" because you are totally calm and unoffended.

>>29471445

In case you don't know what I'm arguing here, it's clear that abyssal petitioners are not being 'punished' but rather recieving a 'reward' appropriate to their alignment.

>>29471450
>Right, you are calling people "asshole, moron and sperglord" because you are totally calm and unoffended.
yes. do you honestly think someone needs to be riled up or personally insulted to call a sperglord a sperglord?

>>29471496
Hey, I don't know why you're so insecure, just that you're insecure.

>>29471495
>>29471445
Ok, so we have more book examples showing the poeple trying to shoehorn christian ideals of heaven and hell into D&D are full of shit.
And their claims of "just read the books and ignore everything google search comes up with" are still full of shit.

>>29471564

I'm actually a bit confused about who is arguing what, exactly. Following the trail up, it seems that the original argument is whether, outside of faerun, a god or your alignment decides where you go after you die? In which case it is setting specific so there isn't really an answer. In 2e Planescape, if you are a devout follower of one god you go to their domain. If you worship no god (or many gods) you go to the plane most closely aligned to your beliefs.

Thus it is possible that an evil but devout follower of St. Cuthbert could end up in heaven, but presumably being punished for his sins.. although I can't imagine such a situation would come up too often.

>>29471730

And by heaven I mean Mount Celestia in this case, not some judaic heaven. Mount Celestia is actually a pretty rough place where you are expected to give everything for the good of the upper planes

>>29471730
seems to be pretty accurate.

Also there is the argument of whether or not hell is a punishment for evil people.

as >>29471445 shows, its not a punishment, its a path to power.

>>29471564
People aren't trying to shoehorn Christian ideas of Heaven and Hell. People are pointing out you go to the afterlife plane of your alignment if you lack a deity. The punishment/reward element is largely subjective and campaign dependent.

>>29471730
To be fair, St. Cuthbert explicitly refuses evil followers.

>>29471836
>People aren't trying to shoehorn Christian ideas of Heaven and Hell.
yes they were
>People are pointing out you go to the afterlife plane of your alignment if you lack a deity.
Actually they claimed you go there regardless of deity status.
And later on on guy took offense with some info sourced online claiming that godless ones cease to exist, claiming its a house-rule and that the godless go to a plane based on their alignment

Problems with that is
1. All those sources showing that afterlife planes are god specific. St cuthbert and helm do not share the LG afterlife, they each have their own (which are close and easy to travel between)
2. They claimed everyone online was full of it and demanded I look it up in books, when finally naming one book I looked it up and it explicitly states "its up to the DM" over and over.

>>29468866
>>29468140
>>29467392
>Durkon returns to the dwarven lands posthumously
>Continues flying over the dwarven lands posthumously
>Leaves the dwarven lands posthumously

>>29471257
>>29471836

If you read the manual of the planes page 89, the text on the right hand side above 'judgement', it explicitly states that, and I quote, 'their souls drift toward the Outer plane that matches their nature most closely'

It then goes on to describe *alternatives* such as having god/s judge the souls.

So, the manual of the planes is very vague but gives credence to the idea that, outside of setting specific instances, you are generally 'judged' by your alignment, not your religion... unless, as mentioned above, you are a devout follower, in which case you specifically go to that god or pantheon's domain.

>>29471836

Fair call - I just pulled a random god out of my head. The situation could apply to any alignment/religion mismatch - but again, I don't think it would be a common occurence.

>>29472012
>Is followed by great ruin (xykon's army is just behind him, but both are unaware of each other's movements)

>>29472002
>Actually they claimed you go there regardless of deity status.

Its usually portrayed as your alignment being the determining factor, and it is even in those cases (you must be within one step of your deity's alignment, and your deity claims an outer plane based off his alignment).

>and Helm

We're not talking about FR.

>2. They claimed everyone online was full of it and demanded I look it up in books

Planescape core.

>implying another D&D alignment argument is worth paying attention

So, I was looking through that Index of things Rich had said regarding the comic that someone linked earlier, and I've come out with a lot more respect for him, in regards to the comic and him as a writer in general. He thinks out a lot of this shit way in advance.

>>29472002

I think the only thing that is contentious is your claim that the gods punish nonbelievers regardless of the setting? If this is you?

>>29470539

2e Planescape's Great Wheel, and the 3e manual of the planes (for all its general worthlessness), don't have a cosmology that punishes nonbelievers. They just drift to the plane that matches their nature. Faerun explicitly punishes non-believers (as I'm sure some other settings do too).

Everything else you say I don't see any issue with, again assuming that is you.

>>29472038
So it does... but right after stating
>Cosmologies can use the Outer Planes as the “final reward” or “eternal punishment” for the mortal creatures of the Material Plane. The nature of this reward/punishment is up to the individual Dungeon Master
And every specific setting specifies its god based instead of alignment based.

So assuming this unspecific setting is greyhawk, this makes greyhawk the only case where its alignment based

If the DM wishes it to be so. With 4 official alternatives. And most other sources for greyhawk also mentioning devotion to a god takes precedence over it.

Also, its not necessarily alignment, but nature.
>In the D&D cosmology, when characters die, their souls drift toward the Outer Plane that matches their nature most closely. Souls that in life were lawful good tend to drift toward Celestia, while those that relished evil and chaos wind up in the Abyss
>tend to
that is, it is possible to be lawful good non devout and yet still drift to another plane entirely instead if it matches your nature more (not your alignment)

>>29472272

In this case, nature is making reference to alignment. It says directly after that:

'souls that were in life lawful good tend to drift towards mount celestia, whilst those the relished evil and chaos wind up in the Abyss'

Although it does say 'tend' so there is definitely scope for souls to end up in planes inappropriate to their alignment.

>>29472272

Yeah, that's because the MoTP is supposed to be a toolbox for creating your own cosmologies. It does reference dnd cosmology specifically (IE the great wheel) by saying 'in dnd cosmology,' which is the reference the previous poster was citing. The stuff you cited earlier was all 'if you want your world to be different...' stuff.

So the default great wheel cosmology sends you to your aligned plane, unless a god has specific claim on you. Only a few individual settings use the great wheel though (oerth, greyhawk I think, planescape). The other ones are fair game and I don't know much about eberron etc. Faerun is the only one I know that explicitly punishes you if you don't follow a god.

>>29471445
To go on a bit of a tangent, I've always thought that the afterlife planes are the way they are not due to their own nature, but due to the nature of those drawn there. IE, the Abyss is a dog eat dog world where the strong rule with cruelty because everyone there is Chaotic Evil.

I feel like the "Tarquin was this way the whole time" thing is just a fad people are hiding behind to justify Tarquin's sudden shit loss.

>>29462578
Vaarsuvius
Xykon
I prepared Explosive Runes this morning
Not sure exactly. With close to 1000 pages in Order of the WordsWordsWords, it's hard to think of just one line that stands out above all. Most of my favorite stuff is V's quips, but I have to say that the "not nale" line is pretty amazing.

>>29462632
>Dorfs sell sex toys to not-smaug
Holy god, what the fucking fuck?

>>29472589

Yeah, I think it is very cyclical: The abyss is evil because souls that go there are evil, because it is evil, because etc etc. The planes can shift a little depending on the nature of their inhabitants: for example, some layers of Arcadia fell into Mechanus for being too lawful, and it is hinted in tyrants of the nine hells that Baator used to be good or neutral realm before Asmodeus twisted its purpose into evil.

As another aside, I think a big part of the problem with the cosmologies as heavens/hells is that the writers themselves didn't have a clear idea of whether evil planes were punishments or rewards. They are often described as being punishments in general blurbs, but when you read about them more specifically it's clear they aren't set up to directly punish their petitioners at all (just that their nature, as evil planes, makes them unpleasant places more generally). Although this frustrates me, in a way it is also a nice echo of the dichotomoy of christian heaven/hell, where hell is explicitly a punishment where sinners rot.... except if you read behind the lines you realise that demons/satan have no motivation to 'punish' sinners in this way. You can either then go the Dante route and explain it as the demons/lucifer also being trapped and suffering in hell, or start to question whether hell really is a horrible place if you embrace the values it represents (which is kind of what the DnD great wheel cosmology does).

Thus, in a very subtle fashion, DnD cosmology really is anti-christian in that regard. That's kind of amusing.

>>29472936
I don't think it's meant to be punishment or reward- it's just the way it happens.

A wolf is happiest amongst a herd of penned sheep, free to bite and snap and kill and eat. A wolf is happy to pick of grazing sheep or nursing lambs under the eye of the shepherd. A wolf ISN'T happy penned in with a bunch of other wolves, all starving and miserable, especially if there are a few bears lurking about.

Conversely, a sheep will be happiest in a herd of its brethren, especially if shepherds are nearby to guard and lead them.

For the purposes of this allegory, the wolves and bears are evil sapients while the sheep and shepherds are good. Evil may always be hiring, but Good is a growth industry.

>>29473181

Except, most of the good heavens would be the equivalent of punishment for Evil sapients anyway. The hells also perfectly affirm their worldview - that interaction is intrinsically negative and that the only way to get ahead is to exploit your fellow sapients.

>>29463257
She was closer to "lawful" than she was "good".

"Hell is full of good meanings, but heaven is full of good works." Apparently the Southern gods agree.

>>29472226
You know, I liked Nale a lot more once I realized Malack was a vampire.

Fuck vampires.

>>29460688
I liked him, until it was shown that no, he wasn't genre savvy. He was just fucking INSANE.

Then I liked him EVEN MORE, I just want him to die, preferably alone and unloved, with nothing to remember him by, not even a footnote in the history books. It would be a fitting karmic end for him.

>>29474575
>Read the comic
>Tarquin is a glorious bastard who just wants his son to kill him eventually
>Tarquin face heels from a glorious bastard to a mouth breathing socially inept retard over one page
>Suddenly everyone is fanwanking hes always been like this and how insightful they are
>Everyone keeps spouting they want the same thing

I don't even know anymore. I think some new Xykon hijinks will make me happy again.

>>29472460
>Only a few individual settings use the great wheel though (oerth, greyhawk I think, planescape).
Oerth is Greyhawk. Specifically it's the planet on which the setting of Greyhawk (primarily) takes place. Like Dragonlance features the planet Krynn.

>>29475183
>>Suddenly everyone is fanwanking hes always been like this and how insightful they are
That's because Burlew did it first, on his forums, and on the GitP forums you can be banned for not sucking Burlew's cock (because "it's his Playground").

Anyone think that Elan will now swear revenge over Tarquin's death, when Tarquin swoops in and is immediately killed by Xykon?

>>29475183
I had no fucking clue Malack was a vampire until he started in on Belkar. Afterwards, it was obvious.

In regards to Tarquin, there's a strip where he and Elan are chatting and Malack asks V if "his is always like that too." Malack also gets pissed when Tarquin showboats on top of the pyramid and admits that Tarquin is always willing to go to ridiculous lengths for a punchline. When Tarquin asks for help apprehending the Order, Lauren and Mirion try to back out, calling his narrative casualty theory out as bullshit. He only gets them to help by calling in Mirion's debt and agreeing to do Lauren a favor.

Besides, when everything's going just as planned, the madness isn't as obvious. It's just when things start going to hell in a handbasket that the facade cracks.

>>29475307

We have a ship confirmed to travel at the speed of plot.

>>Tarquin is obviously crazy for his theory of dramatic narrative.

I only read the strip occassionally. but when Tarq says "This is terrible ending" this is burlew telling you its a terrible ending and your only gonna get more terrible endings.

>> Prepare for terrible endings

>>29463348
>>29463329
In this case the problem is with Burlew who cannot into alignment. See Also: Familiacide Spell

>>29475794
> See Also: Familiacide Spell

How? He's been very clear on what that spell did and the infernal ramifications it has on V's soul. It's only his retarded forumbase that tries to argue the point.

>>29475794
And? Familicide was a wicked, evil thing to do, no matter the justification. Dragons live for centuries and breed with EVERYTHING. Beyond that, there are probably plenty of Black Dragons who haven't done anything evil enough to warrant being killed.

Fucking alignment arguments derail and ruin every thread.

>>29475183
Tarquin was my favorite character, and I imagine many others, so rich had to make him less appealing. Cue drastic character derailment
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterDerailment

>>29475296
You also get banned for not sucking the cock of any wandering furries, who are valuable members of the community and not to be fursecuted.

>>29479085
Are you trying to imitate the people from GiTP? My sarcasmometer is broken.

>>29479160
what?

>>29479128
Any group that is above criticism has to be persecuted to bring them down a peg. That's my stance.

>>29479128
>>29479278
It doesn't even have to be real persecution.
It's enough to just not suck their cocks

>>29479085
The dude raped people for fun, tortured people for fun, and murdered people for fun.

He was clearly introduced, upon meeting Elan, as a guy every bit as zany as his son, but was almost immediately revealed to be vicious, depraved, and totally insane.

Dunno how people couldn't see any downsides to a character who is a depraved metagaming psychopath. Heaven forbid the torturing rapist mass murder tyrant do something UNAPPEALING.

Its fucking hilarious though.

>>29475794
OotS uses a very bog standard, by the book, PHB interpretation of alignment. If anything, its more morally prosaic than most people's RPG concerns are. Note that V banned Conjuration and Necromancy, and I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't because of all the moral and ethical bullshit of his spells.

Thankfully, V never does anything controversial, otherwise we may have people who start arguing genocide and babykilling is okay, so long as its against evil babies.

>>29479369
>The dude raped people for fun, tortured people for fun, and murdered people for fun.
I didn't say he wasn't evil and deserve death, I said he was likable.

>>29479419
IIRC v did ban necromancy for moral reasons

>>29479421

Right, he's not going to come off quite as likable when he's trying to fucking murder the protagonists.

The dude kills, rapes, and tortures people for totally whimsical reasons, cracks witty one liners about it, and is such a lunatic that he couldn't even conceive of why Elan wouldn't enjoy a birthday present comprised of innocents being set on fire.

Of course he's not going to come off as desirable when he's trying to kill the PCs.

Him trying to kill people for thwarting his vision of reality is way, way more tame and understandable, and less crazy, than him setting a pile of innocents on fire because "HAPPY BIRTHDAY ELAN!"

>>29479562
he set them on fire as an example to the other slaves
he shaped the fire like elan's name as a gift to elan

>>29479630
Right. The guy is so far gone that even after having hung out with Elan for awhile, the idea that his son may have a tiny shred of human decency never occurred to him.

Dude has always been as loopy and dense as Elan, just towards evil instead of good. That he has an ugly and horrible personality was established early on.

>>29462578

>Favorite order member
Belkar
>Favorite other character
Wrong-Eye/Red-Cloak
>Favorite running gag
Explosive Runes.
>Favorite quote
"If I tolerated your humiliating attempts to undercut my authority before it was only because killing you would've upset the delicate puppet strings upon which 'Lord Xykon' unknowingly dances. But if you're going to stand here and tell me that you'll expose one of those strings to him? If you're going to be THAT stupid? There can only be one rational response to that."
-Red-Cloak/Wrong-Eye

HOLY SHIT THERE WAS A FUNNY OOTS

>>29463802
But the only potion seller shown in OoTS sells his potions at a loss, and decides to have a sale when he finds out it is impossible to make a profit.

>>29479562
>>29479682
I get that he was irredeemably evil
Rapes, tortures, and murders for the lulz.
But for a while he was a very relaxed and chill personality. Everything was a game, everything was fun, he didn't get angry, and he was a tactical genious, he was efficient and effective.

Then he suddenly goes into uncontrable rage, literally grits his teeth, throws a temper tantrum, and stop being efficient and effective.

I don't know about others, but I am not surprised at him trying to kill roy. I am surprised at how badly he went about it and how when it was clear things were going badly he didn't regroup and plan for the next attack, instead he threw a pathetic ineffective tantrum

In terms of a character who feels like they change dramatically but in hindsight there were signs they would do this, this is who Tarquin reminds me of.

>>29462632
Someone make an edit where they are talking to /v/

>>29479991
That was when everything was going according to his plan, and he didn't even seem to get that things might not. He only went into a rage when it started becoming increasingly clear that he wasn't in control of everything after all.

Tarquin is fundamentally a man driven by a need to control absolutely everything, and categorize everything into a system that suits him. He isn't like Xykon, who gets bored when things are too easy, or Redcloak, who's perfectly aware that he's fighting an uphill battle against forces that effectively control all reality and who knows that he obviously can't control everything as-is. Tarquin thinks that he's already right and victorious, that he's so much of a genius that everything is already right where he wants it and that everything just has to fall into place, and while some things might do that, not everything will, and seeing that happen will enrage him.