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/tg/ - Traditional Games


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29321813 No.29321813 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Kind of /k/ related question here. Whenever I read about ancient warfare it seems like swords were really second banana to other weapons like spears and bows. Then why do people and stories wank over swords so much? Why is it that the hero always carries a sword, why arent there more heroic stories of master spearmen poking evil to death?

>> No.29321846

>>29321813
A sword is an elegant weapon, for a more civilized age

>> No.29321853

>>29321813
It's the weapon that can be wielded with the most potential skill, as well as the one most everyone carries and the most artfulness can be put into its making. But you're still right.

>> No.29321864

It's versatile. That's kind of it.

Also the gladius or something? I don't know.

>> No.29321874

A sword is the most versatile and iconic weapon.

>> No.29321878

>>29321813
Because it used to be a noble- and later gentleman's weapon. It's just cultural bias.

>> No.29321909

>>29321813
Same reason all the movie heroes use pistols.

The trusty sidearm is iconic to the hero who has more skill than his better-equipped enemies.

>> No.29321917

>>29321813

Good question!

It is because the sword is the weapon of the Hero. The knight. The lord.

Spears are cheap. Spears are a peasants weapon, when pressed into war by their lord. Hammers and axes are TOOLS, brutal as they may be when used on a person.

Clubs are a farmers weapon, and what is a mace but a fancy club?

Bows are... okay. But even commoners can use bows to hunt and shit. Not bad for your secondary character or love interest in the story.

But swords? Swords are expensive. Swords take training to use. Swords are an offensive weapon that looks good.

The Sword is the weapon for someone who is better than you. And what is a Hero but someone better than everyone?

>> No.29321934

>>29321917
>Bows are... okay. But even commoners can use bows to hunt and shit. Not bad for your secondary character or love interest in the story.

Do you even realize how much training you have to do to be good with a bow in a combat situation?

>> No.29321954

>>29321934
But you don't use swords to hunt. Hunters use bows, and hunters are not necessarily soldiers. Thus, bows are associated with things besides pure martial prowess.

>> No.29321962

>>29321934
It's not about who can use the bow, but who can afford it and moreover who is allowed to carry it.

>> No.29321964

>>29321934
About two sessions. Just so long as it takes to aim up instead of at a target, and to learn to fire in concert with others instead of at will. After that, it's just shoulder strength.

>> No.29321966

>>29321813
Because in the edition wars of weapons, guns are the new kid. It's like bows vs. crossbows.

>> No.29321968

>>29321934
This. But even then bows have always been seen as a support weapon used to aid melee-orientated allies by picking at charging eneimes or harassing retreating ones.

Plus there are no ACTION DUELS when using bows like a melee weapon would

>> No.29321977

>>29321954
Sure you do. Hunting swords were pretty damn common, in particular to deliver the killing blow.

>> No.29321978

>>29321934
A lot. But you're still a dirty peasant and therefore not hero material.

>> No.29321988

Because they're iconic.

>> No.29321990

>>29321968
>has never watched that scene from Dances with Aliens where they were swinging around their bows like a motherfucker

>> No.29321993
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29321993

>>29321934
>Do you even realize how much training you have to do to be good with a bow in a combat situation?

Bough once every Sunday should do the trick.

>> No.29322014

>>29321934
Most heroes are in short skirmishes and one or two large battles. In the former, there's no point to using one if you'll wind up in CQC pretty much right away anyway, and a hero isn't the kind of coward who snipes people who can't shoot back. For those who can, we have stories set in times where guns happen.

In a battle, you either ran by on horseback and shot people before they could swing at you (again, being a non-heroic person) or sat back and were the prototype to artillery (once more being non-heroic) until badguys got too close, at which point you used a melee weapon.

>> No.29322028

>>29321968
Bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7affxMb-IY

>> No.29322062
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29322062

>>29321917
>what is a mace but a fancy club?

Sword is the weapon of the knight, mace is the weapon of the king.

>> No.29322066

>>29322028
>most of the fighting involves who can hide like a bitch better
>battle actually decided by stabbing with a handheld implement
Laughing.

>> No.29322075

>>29322062
>mace is the weapon of the successful knight and the king

ftfy

>> No.29322090

>>29322066
>not hiding like a bitch

It's like you don't even modern warfare.

Part of me wishes we had swords and bows back in the modern day. But then China and India would win every war.

>> No.29322095
File: 82 KB, 490x374, Weapon_select_hflail.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29322095

>>29322062
I prefer this motherfucker right here.

>> No.29322098

>>29321813
OP again, why does almost no media EVER show the Samurai with muskets? I mean, it wasnt exactly rare, at one point in time it was a standard weapon. Hell the Book of 5 Rings flat out says "Guns > Everything else".

If youre lucky you see a Samurai with a bow. But very rarely with a musket.

>> No.29322112

>>29322090
I don't, modern wars aren't worth fighting specifically because it's a bunch of hiding bitches proving who can be the biggest bitch.

>> No.29322116

>>29322090
>Part of me wishes we had swords and bows back in the modern day. But then China and India would win every war.
>back in the modern day
...what?

>> No.29322118

Swords have often been symbols of heroes, lords and kings. They've had ritual and ceremonial purpose, and have been used as status symbols in many, many cultures.

Meanwhile, spearmen have tended to be conscripted farmers, peasants and lowly soldiers, which isn't nearly as romantic.

On the other hand, there's a bunch of mythological heroes and gods who used spears. Odin and Athena, for example.

>> No.29322135
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29322135

>>29322116

He means "I wish swords and bows would return (i.e. come back) to modern day warfare".

>> No.29322140

>>29322116
He wishes they had them back. Context should indicate intent well enough.

>> No.29322150

>>29322112
Oh I never said our modern soldiers were bitches or even poor at close combat, but just look at how many moves in their martial arts are based on either "Oh shit he's got a gun! Better run for cover or try to take it away," or "Got to put distance between this guy and me so I can level my gun!" It would be comical, but that's just how much powder weapons have changed warfare.

>> No.29322164

>>29322090
If we could have them magical kinetic barrier shields that make melee combat more effective than shooting unless your opponents lack shields/are really far away, it would be pretty rad.

>> No.29322168

>>29322098
Because musket were considered dishonorable, and samurai fiction is all about romanticizing samurai as honorable, stoic badassases who stick to the old traditions and martial arts. Killing a guy from several meters away is a lot less dramatic than two swordsmen facing each other in close combat.

>> No.29322170

>>29322095
These things were only used by support troops to knock knights from horses.

>> No.29322178
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29322178

>>29322112
Hey man, outbitching people is a feat within itself.

>> No.29322182

>>29322164
But I fucking hate Dune.

>> No.29322192

>>29322118

Yeah, both those mythological figures are usually OLD. Not, like, aged. But from a time or culture where the sword didn't have the elevated status (sometimes because it didn't really exist yet) and the spear was the weapon of choice.

Of course Athena would use a spear. She was the goddess of wisdom and war. Fight smarter, not harder. Spears were a key weapon of the Phalanx, and the Greek Phalanx was incredibly effective tactics at the time.

>> No.29322194

>>29322062
There is a different between a mace and a zeptar. A king never wield a zeptar in battle. And most likely he didn't really wield a mace either. A lance or a sword, or some fancy holy weapon with a great historical context, those are the weapons of a king.

>> No.29322197

>>29321934
Very little actually. The only thing that could require any real training is getting the upper body strength to use one.

Bows were generally used on area targets, something that just requires you to have a general idea of where the arrow is going to go.

More pin-point accuracy was nice, but not really necessary.

>> No.29322215

>>29322168
>>29322098
And because Edo period Japan glorified the Katana/Wakizashi set so much that everyone forgot what ended the Sengoku period.

>> No.29322217

>>29322150
I'd still like a time machine to go back and prevent it.

I like guns. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy shooting them, I enjoy them aesthetically, I enjoy the sound they make. But they have enabled cowards to think playing smart means it's okay to play like a scared little cunt, and they've cheapened war and killing so much that it's become easier and easier for people to stomach murder over basically nothing.

Not a fair trade, that.

>> No.29322237

>>29322116
Idiot.

>> No.29322238

>>29322178
If we didn't start rewarding bitches for being bitches they'd be less likely to develop a bad habit of being bitches.

What faggot thought "let's encourage people to be indirect, dishonest cunts" was a good idea?

>> No.29322245
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29322245

>>29321813
Simply put, swords are really cool. They look nice, and you can swing them, which is dramatic and allows you to see what's happening. It's also just become associated with knights and heroes probably because of modern media knowing how stylish they are, but quite a few heroes of myth and legend also use them, namely King Arthur and the knights of the round table, who are the iconic knight archetype. Thus, one would expect an iconic knight to carry a sword.

That said, we don't lack spears in stories and myths. The Spartans are known especially for the spear and shield. Japan is said to have been formed by water dripping off of a spear belonging to the gods. Saint George fought the dragon using a lance.
Additionally, there are sure to be famous warriors through history whose signature weapon was the spear.

>> No.29322248

>>29322215
>what ended the Sengoku period

Oda Nobunaga getting assassinated?

>> No.29322252

>>29321917
Sword can't cut throught the chainmail when slashing. Armor that most of the soldiers wear in middle ages. Swords are only carried by people on their daily life just because they couldn't carry their battle axes or maces comfortably on their daily lifes. Oh by the way, swords are really expensive and harder to make compared to other weapons so most people used daggers or really short sword as a secondary weapon.

>> No.29322266
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29322266

>>29322098
>why does almost no media EVER show the Samurai with muskets?
Bro, even the Three Musketeers spend much of their portrayal fighting with swords. The reason is really simple: sword fights are way cooler than gunfights. The media you watch that has Samurai in it is for entertainment.

>> No.29322267

>>29322182
Suck my dick, if we had Dune shields everyone would just make remote laser drones to nuke one another.

Mass Effect and Halo kinetic shields do the job. Enough that guns still work, but if you wanted to half the half-testicle needed to go in close you'll rape ass until another non-coward shows up.

>> No.29322273

>>29322014
Heroes are dumb.

>> No.29322284

>>29322238
Do you even read half the threads about how players conduct themselves during combat?

>> No.29322288

>>29321813
Thank the renaissance and Victorian age. Court swords and all that. Easy to carry with you for when you need it. Seriously, why can't we carry swords anymore?

Anyway, sword is easier to carry with formal wear than a poleaxe. So, the gentleman uses a sword.

Gentleman=hero=hero uses a sword. That finishes my non-referenced and taken from my hat speculations.

>> No.29322292

>>29321813
>Expecting legends, fiction and popular media to care more about what's practical than what looks cool.

...why?

>> No.29322293

>>29322273
And cowards are unsung faggots.

>> No.29322295

>>29322217
>they've cheapened war and killing so much that it's become easier and easier for people to stomach murder over basically nothing.
I'm fairly sure that if you look at the numbers this is simply false. Less people die because of war and crime now than ever before in history, and if anything people are biased to thinking that a gunwound is more deadly than a knifewound which in turn makes it harder for people to bring themselves to shoot someone than it would be for them to bring themselves to shiv them. If anything guns have a deterring effect on violence.

>> No.29322301

Spears and bows are bith weapons of war. Both of them are made most effective when given to lots of guys who all line up and do the same thing.

Swords are weapons that give an individual strength. If you put a guy with a sword against a guy with a spear, the sword guy will win.

That attribute is what gave the sword the status as both the weapon of the hero and the king. Not only that, but the sword is the first true "weapon" ie. something that is designed specifically for killing people and not for killing animals.

>> No.29322304

>>29322098
Somebody hasn't seen Tom Cruise in The Last Samurai.

>> No.29322323

>>29322238
Im just saying, guile can be just as much of a heroic trait as beating people to death with a club.

>> No.29322325

>>29322284
No, because I've never had that issue. One player in my time as a GM has opted to go full /v/ and dedicate his character and take the easy way out of every situation.

I made his life worse each time he did, and reminded him that we all agreed to a game about heroic exploits and dramatic tension because that's what the group wanted. Eventually he found ways to be both honorable and clever, instead of picking the latter for lack of the former.

>> No.29322335

>>29322295
Actually, a stabwound is usually more deadly than even a large slash. A bulletwound is a large stabwound that can even leave a bit of metal in there for good measure.

>> No.29322336

BONUS ROUND

You're defending a space station. Quickly justify why a sword isn't the best defence against an enemy boarding action in realistic hard sci-fi.

>> No.29322339
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29322339

>using sword
>using gun
Nuke everything, it's the best weapon

>> No.29322345
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29322345

>>29322098
Prior to the 16th century there weren't any guns in Japan, so any story set there won't have anyone using them.

Then past Tokugawa's takeover in the early 17th century guns were basically locked up in the armouries, as they would be a big thing for anyone trying to overthrow the Tokugawa, and thus something heavily regulated. So anything set in the Edo period (prior to the Bakumatsu at least) will also tend to be gun-free.

In between we have less than a century where we can wave guns around with any frequency. A rather (as the Chinese would put it) interesting century, but still. And I guess the reload time for muzzle loaders don' make for the most exciting action scenes.

Still, there are a trio of teppo in the Seven Samurai.

>> No.29322364

>>29322295
>entry wound
>less devastating than a stab wound
Hydrostatic shock is a bitch, my friend.

>> No.29322366

>>29322217
Actually, modern wars cause a LOT fewer casualties nowadays than they did a hundred years ago. You are an idiot.

>> No.29322368

>>29322323
Oh no, you can, as I posted after you, be both honorable and clever. Don't get me wrong. You can do the smart thing without being a coward if you do it in a way that's noble.

But how many times does that happen in comparison to people who use their cleverness as a crutch to support their overwhelming fear of consequence and responsibility.

>> No.29322369
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29322369

>>29322301
>ie. something that is designed specifically for killing people and not for killing animals.

This one's definitely not true. A sword is just another name for a long knife, and people have been knifing animals ever since death existed. Swords are used for hunting, too.

>> No.29322379
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29322379

>>29322194
>A king never wield a zeptar in battle

I bet you think they didn't use their holy hand grenade either.

>> No.29322384

>>29322252
Mail wasn't quite that tough and it wasn't that hard to just use something pointy(like a sword or dagger) to get through the padding without even breaking the mail.

Saying swords are expensive is another matter entirely and depends on what point during the middle ages we're talking about and where. Swords in the late middle ages, for example, ranged from 2 pence(1/3 the daily wage of a foot archer) to 20,000 pounds(estimated cost of swords given by the king as gifts to foreign rulers) and most anyone who did any traveling usually carried a sword while on the road.

>> No.29322387

>>29322369
>death existed before people

>> No.29322396

>>29322366
true but thats because of advances in medicine

>> No.29322401

>>29322369

>A sword is just another name for a long knife

Wrong. They handle entirely different.

>> No.29322402
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29322402

>>29322336
It won't help because you're already dead.

>> No.29322406

>>29322345
Why haven't we got legendary guns then, like swords? Or is magnum .44 or desert eagle one?

>> No.29322409

>>29322369
>A sword is a long knife
I mean. I guess if you see it that way. But there are lots of differences. A sword is distinctly more evolved. I guess you could say American Football is just another word for armoured soccer, but I might have to look at you cross

>> No.29322412

>>29322364
>>29322335
You are missing the point. What's important isn't what is more deadly but what people think is more deadly. When people see a gun they immediatly associate it with death. Most people do not have the same associations with knifes, and that's why a robber with a knife is much more likely to use it than a robber with a gun.

>> No.29322429

>>29322406
We do, but the Romance of the Gun is primarily an American thing. Because in the rest of the World, the Gun marked the end of the romantic era of nobles, mass warfare, heroes and villains.

In America, the gun was a symbol of independence and civilization, mans power against the elements and savagery

>> No.29322435

>>29322396
That, and because you get a lot less casualties when you're not just sending big, thickly packed crowds of guys to go cut another big, thickly packed crowd of guys and hope enough people survive to keep the war going.
War is still bloody and terrible, but it's not a meatgrinder like it used to be.

>> No.29322443

>>29322217
>I'd still like a time machine to go back and prevent it

Just use your time machine to go take part in the Napoleonic wars.

Brave proud soldiers with guns marching in straight disciplined lines to their death.
>No bitches allowed

>> No.29322454

>>29321813
Two reasons.
Requires years of practice, and thus is more exclusive
And it is always used by famous people and leaders. Mainly because they didn't want to carry huge polearms, but still wanted to do something.

Also it looks cool, but whatever.

>> No.29322461

>>29322429
>Romance of the Gun
>Romance of the Three Guns

My favorite warlord was Colt Colt.

>> No.29322463
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29322463

>>29322406
>Why haven't we got legendary guns then
oh but we do

>> No.29322472

>>29322396
Sadly true. There's a 99% chance that a doctor can save you if you get shot and can be brought to a hospital before you pass on. The reason for this is because many hospitals have had way too many gun injuries to treat over the past few decades.

>>29322435
If anything, the fighting is more intense now than it was in WWII, just with a great deal fewer people involved.

Armies bothering to use armor helps too.

>> No.29322478

>>29322412
No you're missing the point!
>knifes
It's "knives"

>> No.29322481

>>29322461
>not Liu Winchester

faggit do you even bulletevolence

>> No.29322482
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29322482

>>29322461

Colt was a madman

>> No.29322502
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29322502

>>29322098
Book of Five Rings said guns were best until your forces got in close. In close combat, Musashi stated that a long sword was generally the best, in fact his signature weapon was two swords at once.

In media, samurai are just associated with their swords. They displayed their rank specifically by the pair they carried. Besides which, the musket was more a weapon for the battlefield; they took time to load and aim, and were fired by rows of men. In a story about a wandering samurai, it would be more convenient to carry a sword or spear, namely because they can be used quickly and aren't necessarily a display of hostility. If the movie is about bushido and regaining your honor, it'll actually be more philosophical than being about fighting, or if it is, it'll be an arranged duel. If it's about a war, you actually might see them used by grunts depending on time period, with leaders and heroes wielding traditional weapons. But that's because you can train someone to load and fire in a week; learning to use a sword or spear or bow effectively took time and was indicative of the user's skill, because samurai were trained from a very young age.

>> No.29322503

>>29322454
>Mainly because they didn't want to carry huge polearms, but still wanted to do something.
Holy shit, swords are like instruments for boy bands.

>> No.29322523
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29322523

>>29322502
>Book of Five Rings said guns were best until your forces got in close.
say that to my bayonet!

>> No.29322538

>>29322301
No, unless he's a hell of a lot better than spear guy, sword guy loses.

>> No.29322542

>>29322384

>fellow schola gladiatoria fan

Evening friend.

>> No.29322546

>>29322481
Lhuger Liang was pretty cool, wasn't he?

>> No.29322547

Swords were symbols. They got associated with power. So when people started making stories about powerful people, they got powerful swords. And there's the credit issue. Many famous people, real and fictional, throughout history have gotten the credit for great deeds. 'Genghis Khan conquered the Khwarezmian Empire'. 'PAtton fought Rommel'. These are great headlines and good stories, but they ignore the fact that the 'famous people' are famous and successful for the amazing skill of knowing how to ask more competent people to do the work for them. The figurehead gets the glory despite the fact that they do virtually nothing.

>> No.29322585

>>29322523
Musashi didn't know you could turn your gun into a shitty spear. He also didn't know that dual wielding anything other than guns is basically asking for death. Unless your enemy doesn't know about shields.

>> No.29322602

>>29322547
But those are all stories about great millitary leaders. The ability to get other people to do things for them is kind of their shtick.

>> No.29322603
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29322603

>>29322542
>also evening
And a fellow eurofag too? Well met indeed!

>> No.29322632

>>29322603
>Using the shitty Cold Steel model

>> No.29322645

>>29322217
>But they have enabled cowards to think playing smart means it's okay to play like a scared little cunt

So people who suit up in plate aren't cowards?

>> No.29322646

>>29322547
Did you really just accuse Genghis Khan, the man who ravaged the world as a teambuilding exercise, of doing nothing? Leading men is tricky and hard work, and it makes sense that we'd glorify leaders.

>> No.29322647

>>29322603

If you count Britfag as Euro.

I do.

>> No.29322652

>>29322603

To this day I'm still unsure if Zweihanders are overrated

>> No.29322660

>>29322402
TENNO SKOOM

>> No.29322669

>>29322217
>Sweaty nerd who haven't been in a fight calling actual soldiers scared little cunts

This is sad.

>> No.29322670

>>29322585
Dual wielding is pretty effective in 1v1 combat. But pretty much only in 1v1 combat. Musashi was mostly famous for duels so the two sword thing worked out for him.

>> No.29322682
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29322682

>>29322632
They get the job done.

>>29322647
Stuck in Germany myself. Weather is tolerable at least.

>> No.29322688

>>29322652
Every weapon has its purpose. Just because the two-handed sword's was very small and lasted only a short time doesn't mean it was over or underrated. It got the job done, while still looking pretty damn sexy.

>> No.29322693

Does the javelin (and other polearms) tells your adversary "I have a big penis and I will kill you with it" ? Not exactly : It says "I have a big, woody, fertile penis, but only the tip is killing you". This is too much lovey dovey for real armchair warriors, so you can write pages and pages about it but you will look like a weirdo unless you're Gygax (and then we will still giggle behind his back). Low-to-medium damages plus a bunch of tricks that impress nobody.

Now, the sword ? Oh yeah, now we are cooking with gaz ! When you brandish a sword, you're really telling "I have an enormous, grithy, hard as steel penis, and all its lenght is made of kill, because I'm not a sensible loving person and I transformed all my libido in MURDER meaning I'm totally a badass lonewolf with not time for the consideration of your society". NOW you can prose endlessly about it, its lenght, its girth, its curvature, its hardness, its penetration coefficient, how many hands you need to handle it properly, how much work at the hand of an hermit master was needed to make it so unique and killy and the reflection of all your character is about. Maximum damages all around and they are all magical !

Bows, crossbows and guns are something different, they say "my penis is not that big or that hard, but I use it with mastery and dexterity and I can ejaculate a lot and far away and my fertility itself is turned into kill even more than the sword". That's why it find itself in the hands of pretty boys, bishonen, elfs and other womanizers who use skills rather than pure testosterone to deal with the world around them.

And of course, endless debate ensues about what should be the stronger between the sword and the gun (and how a really burly all-male space marine should throw his hand-mortar first thing first and do real work with his chainsword).

>> No.29322696

>>29322646

He's probably one of those people that can't stand the idea that no one cares he has a STEM major.

>> No.29322711
File: 49 KB, 491x245, 1381877024904.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29322711

>>29322585
The samurai way of thinking was "Why the hell would I use a shield when I could use my left hand to make my sword hit harder?"

I'm not sure they even developed that many one handed weapons.

Musashi developed a two swords style because it gave him better versatility. He could use one sword like to defend while he attacked, or attack two spots at once. Developing one handed techniques meant that even if one of his arms was disabled, he'd still be able to attack to some degree.

>> No.29322719
File: 6 KB, 168x299, download (1).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29322719

>>29321813

In the west, because of its strong Christian identity. Has mostly been replaced now with weeaboos pushing jap swords though.

>> No.29322735

>>29322693
What about clubs and maces?

>> No.29322742

>>29322647
Why wouldn't you?

>> No.29322748

Thor wielded a hammer.
Odin a spear.
Willhelm Tell a crossbow if I remember right
Robin Hood a bow

To name a few who didn't wield swords.

My personal opinion on the matter is: warning I'm just your average Anon and have no profound knowledge on the matter
Spears existed way before humans learned to form metal. When the humans discovered how to form metal it was an alien material to them and superior to everything they knew beforehand. Swords were made nearly completely out of metal and while they could break they were probably a lot less likely to get damaged than a wooden spear, which they may even cut in half.
With the bronze weapon getting replaced by iron weapons it was also clear that there were superior materials and of course the humans imagined that there could be even better swords made out of rare materials and with magic and stuff.
So yeah, I believe it comes mostly from swords being out of metal and high ranked personalities carrying them/swords not being available to everyone.


Also how comes nobody posted the image of the roman soldier yet?
If swords were shitty why would blacksmiths all over the world create dozens of different kinds of swords?

>> No.29322752

>>29322646
No, managing large groups of people is a very difficult skill to master. But I'm saying that when people say 'Genghis conquered X', it is inaccurate. They should be saying 'The army Genghis organized and controlled conquered X'. That's impressive, but credit where credit is due. His generals disseminated orders, and the soldiers did all the hard work, and the dying. He just convinced them that his personal honor and leadership were worth doing it for.

>> No.29322754

>>29322682
>Tolerable
>Still no fucking snow in sight

>> No.29322764

>>29322742
I'm Irish and think of myself only as a sort of "secondary European" in the same way that a Filipino is only "secondarily Asian."

>> No.29322774

>>29322384
First of all, i said slashing which is the only attack type that is better with swords. There are better and cheaper weapons to use when piercing chainmail(Which is the most common armor of middle ages).

By 15-16th century, swords was becoming popular enough that's right. But only one that got popular was Two handed great sword which was expensive as hell and mostly used by mercenaries. One greatsword had enough metal in it to create 200 spears and they took time to make. Not to mention it's usage was harder than most weapons.

Oh and by the way, another little thing was popular in late middle ages too. Something called plate armor which swords and arrows were completely useless against.(Except armpits)
You couldn't do anything with sword against platemail so you had to use something powerful and heavy that would hurt too much even if it does not cut through armor.

Btw most soldiers especially ranged soldiers carried short swords or daggers for the cases when their main weapon is broken or useless. They didn't used it as a main weapon in war.

>> No.29322775

>>29322696
I'm not sure I follow, do you mean to imply he's the kind of moron who's mad a math/science degree didn't end with a horde of whatever descending on their genitals? Otherwise I have no idea what you're on about.

>> No.29322788

>>29322682

I know this is just a joke gif but when ever I see it my smallsword loving whore-brain starts running through how to win.

I feel like dropping to octave and steeping back to wait for the swing to pass then trust all the way though.
Alternatively if you were feeling brave you might hive the reach to defeat him and just lunge under the swing.

>>29322742
UKIP shitheads who think leaving the EU will solve all our problems.

>> No.29322804

>>29322752
>That's impressive, but credit where credit is due

We are giving credit where credit is due.

Genghis Khan was the one that ordered the organization and conquest of X, it was his generals that acted it out.

It's like making a big deal out of "Justinian didn't conquer the West, it was his cuckolded socially awkward general Belisarios" or "Alexander didn't conquer the East, it was his generals who would later consume each other for land."

>> No.29322805

>>29322788
The EU and Europe aren't the same thing. Norway isn't part of the EU but it's still sure as hell part of Europe.

>> No.29322812

>>29322788
>UKIP shitheads who think leaving the EU will solve all our problems.

Isnt the UKIP basically the UK version of the Tea Party?

>> No.29322824

>>29322788

Absolutely drop to octave. Honestly, it's exactly the same principle as avoiding a beat-attack.

>> No.29322825

>>29322502
Well, japanese people were horrible at war and tactics for a very long time. So i would take their words with a pinch of salt.

Besides Mushishi is forgetting the Terror that was caused by guns in warfare. Only bravest and stupidest can charge against musket line. .

>> No.29322828

>>29322406

Revolvers are the Legendary Guns you fool

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RevolversAreJustBetter

>> No.29322860

>>29322752
>>29322752

Yeah, and the head of McDonalds inc doesnt actually run any McDonalds restaurants. And by your extremely autismal definition of leadership the President of the United States doesnt do anything at all.

Being able to effectively lead people is a skill, and most people would consider it a heroic skill.

>> No.29322870

>>29322825
>insulting Musashi
>insulting Mushishi

I will never forgive you!!!!!

>> No.29322875

>>29322774
>Something called plate armor which swords...were completely useless against
Do you even Harnischfecht?

>> No.29322877

>>29322805
>>29322812

Using logic on UKIP ideas. HAHAHAHAHA
Don't even try just leave it, don't want to shit up the thread.

>>29322824
Well I feel like a smart little bastard.

>> No.29322881

>>29322652
>322652
>File: 1389035788730.jpg-(12 KB, 300x300, 1279295098302.jpg)
They were the only useful weapon against disciplined pike formations for a long time(Besides flanking them ofc) so i can't say they were overrated.

One thing to note is, Two handed sword mercanaries were counted as fencers so they got more money than their colleagues.

>> No.29322900

>>29322828

The Colt Single Action army, greatest handgun ever made.

>> No.29322909

>>29321813

Same reason people wank about MUH HOME DEFENSE GUNS even though moving to a safer neigbourhood is the better strategy.

>> No.29322928

>>29322909
>even though moving to a safer neigbourhood is the better strategy.

But when we do that it's called White Flight, which is supposedly one of the worst things to ever happen (and continue to happen) in American society.

>> No.29322929
File: 69 KB, 786x558, 1284091358846.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29322929

>>29322774
>There are better and cheaper weapons to use when piercing chainmail(Which is the most common armor of middle ages).
Padded and leather was much more common.
>But only one that got popular was Two handed great sword
Arming swords and similar were carried by most soldiers
>Something called plate armor which swords and arrows were completely useless against
Not even close. Anywhere there was a joint or opening was a vulnerable point for plate, and no one besides knights wore full sets, and that's before you include the numerous sword techniques specifically for getting through armor.

>> No.29322959

>>29322804
I prefer to think of it more along the lines of "MacArthur didn't force the Japanese surrender in WW2. [Insert list of every soldier who fought in the Pacific theater] forced the japanese surrender."

>> No.29322969

>>29322928

Well the OTHER solution would be stopping to be racists and create a more equal society. That has been attempted at least twice already and never with any lasting results... I mean other than white women gaining some additional rights in the process.

>> No.29322972

>>29322881
Doppelsöldners got more money because the fought in the very first row, no matter their equipment. Halberds were popular with them too.

>> No.29322977

>>29322748
Gladius was a very different sword than common sword we remember today. It was mostly used for stabbing just like a spear would.

Fun fact:Roman soldiers actually joked how stupid it is to slash with your sword when you can stab your enemy with it when talking about barbarians.

>> No.29322991

>>29322217
Tyrant detected. Guns pretty much broke your shitty feudal might makes right shit by giving everyone the use of force.

>> No.29323000
File: 134 KB, 816x798, hardness.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29323000

>>29322748
>With the bronze weapon getting replaced by iron weapons it was also clear that there were superior materials

Around the bronze age to iron age transition iron weapons and armour probably didn't perform any better than bronze ones. The advantage of iron there is that it's a lot easier to find than the components for bronze (tin ore in particular is bloody scarce).

For iron to really shine we first need steel, which is then properly hardened and tempered. In Europe it was known form antiquity how to do that, but the process is temperamental at best, and as such remained rare (for weapons) until the end of the middle ages. Prior to that we'll mostly see various takes on slack quenching, which does improve things, but anywhere near as much as a full quench and tempering.

>> No.29323002

>>29322909
So spending a bit of money to protect yourself is better than spending a fortune you may not have to move to a safer(read more expensive) neighborhood?

I'm not seeing the logic here.

>> No.29323006

>>29322972
>Doppelsöldners got more money because the fought in the very first row,

>because they were officers
>because they brought their own armour
>because they could lay claim to veteran status
>because they protected the flag

Yeah, some of them also stood in the frontlines, but that ceratinly wasn't the only way to get payed twice the usual rate.

>> No.29323010

>>29322977
>Fun fact:Roman soldiers actually joked how stupid it is to slash with your sword when you can stab your enemy with it when talking about barbarians.

Which is kind of ironic because plenty of Roman soldiers eventually got PTSD and started slashing at their opponents because thrusting is too personal.

>> No.29323041

>>29322969
>Well the OTHER solution would be stopping to be racists and create a more equal society.

It's hard to stop being racist when one race doesn't want to play along.

>> No.29323049

>>29323006
Officers only got double pay?

Damn, they're getting ripped off by today's standards.

>> No.29323054

>>29322909
>Same reason people wank about MUH HOME DEFENSE GUNS even though moving to a safer neigbourhood is the better strategy.

Because criminals can't travel to these nice neighborhoods, right?

>> No.29323060

>>29323006
Nope, the very definition of Doppelsöldner is "dude who stands in the first row and is thus more likely to die".

>> No.29323064

>>29323002

It's the difference of swimming in a shark pond with a spear gun and not swimming in a shark pond at all.

The former simply is not considered a reasonable strategy to avoid getting attacked by sharks.

>> No.29323066

>>29323000
Thanks for the lesson!

>> No.29323070

>>29322735
With a club, a mace or a baton, you might as well drop your pants and start a familly right there. It's wood (mostly), it's round, it's phallic but without edges, you're brandishing a nurturing lol penis.
They are consequently associated with the motherly cleric who will heal you to sleep, the hippie druid who shags trees and the eunuch wizard whose biceps are smaller than his head.

But a true he-man of virile virtue of death will use a sword of course.

The axe is another affair. It's wooden shaft but unpenetrant metal head implies that you can still fuck bitches, but would rather gore them. For tavern-wenche-seducing barbarians and muscle-and-body-hairs dwarves.

The psychoanalysis of the RPGamer is a whole stuff...

>> No.29323083
File: 73 KB, 419x550, WaffenrF6cke.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29323083

>>29322929
>Padded and leather was much more common.

Padded seems to have been common, but it's pretty difficult to pin down with any exactness how common.

Leather on the other hand appears to have been quite rare. When we see it used as actual protection it seems to have been mostly as reinforcing pieces on top of mail. Otherwise we won't see much in the way of leather armour without leaving the middle ages and waiting until the buff coat pops up around the late 16th century.

Leather armour as a light, cheap option is by and alrge a DnD-ism, helped along by modern day industrial farming producing huge quantities of leather on the side.

>> No.29323086

>>29321813
It is one weapon that is only really useful for fighting, rather than fighting and hunting or woodcutting or something. So it's something that you would only need as a warrior. Plus a good one is expensive, thus used by kings and nobles, giving it a reputation and iconic status

>> No.29323090

>>29323064
That assumes you can afford a spot on dry land to get away from the sharks on.

>> No.29323099

>>29323054

You'd be surprised at just how restricted most criminals are to their own little district. Most of them are born, live and die in the same 20-40 mile radius.

That being said, there are plenty of them that like to hop in a car, drive to a nice civilized neighborhood, and mug as many white people as they can before heading back to their ghetto.

>> No.29323112

>>29323000
Not only is tin ore rare, it's almost never found in the same place as copper ore, meaning you now have not just the logistics problem of finding both parts in separate locations, but moving two different resources the the same location before processing can begin, and THEN moving the finished product to where it needs to be. Iron maybe have been somewhat inferior, but it was the more economical choice.

>> No.29323133

>>29322972
You're getting the doppelsoldners and forlorn hope mixed up.

>> No.29323140

>>29323060
>Nope, the very definition of Doppelsöldner is "dude who stands in the first row and is thus more likely to die".

The name basically translates to "Double Earner", which is pretty explicit about what he does. The people in the first row were called the "Forlorn Hope" more often than not.

>>29323090
Well poor people are shit and deserve what they get, right?

>> No.29323142

>>29322929
In early middle ages sure, padded and leather armor was popular.
But in late middle ages Padded and Leather armor was mostly worn by ranged soldiers and poor soldiers(Which was rarer in late middle ages period and period that came after that)

Arming swords and similar were side arms that was only used as secondary weapon. No one went to war only with those. Very different from our fantasy heroes who go dragon hunting only with their swords.

I said except their armpits. But yeah full gear plate armor was rare but still you encountered them during the battle enough to consider them thread. Besides in the thick of battle, you wouldn't have the opportinity to maneuver. Battles are not hollywood movies and your enemy is not a stupid retard. He would protect his vulnerable areas during the battle and would not give you chance to attack them. Still it was nearly impossible to kill or wound an enemy if you strike at the plate so swords are "mostly" useless against armored opponents.

Btw those guys with uncomplete plates wore chainmail under their armor so you still can't slash them effectively.

>> No.29323161
File: 13 KB, 480x360, weapons that made britain.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29323161

This guy explains some of the reasons, mainly the great handiness of the sword making it a very versatile weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As1rGnx9vng

>> No.29323163

>>29323083
Padded armors were used in the European conquest of the Americas, as 'quilted armor' was commonly used not only to keep soldiers warm in the northern territories, but to help defend against arrows.

And you're right, classical 'leather armor' has more in common with DnD's 'Hide Armor' than with it's 'leathers'. A heavy suit of strips of leather boiled to a wood-like hardness. Very heavy and clumsy to move in.

>> No.29323210

>>29322238

You might be underestimating how dirty and low most swordfighting techniques of the day were. Grabbing your opponent's sword so you could stab them was pretty par for the course.

Killing people has never and likely will never be really 'honest'. You don't kill for honor or kill honorably- you kill for land or money or religion and call it honorable.

>> No.29323220

>>29323010
Oh, that's interesting. I really don't know much about later eras of roman empire so that's good to know. What happened them to turn into such big pussies though? Roman people were known to have most militaristic culture among ancient civilizations.

>> No.29323227
File: 82 KB, 306x500, Doppelsoldner-3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29323227

>>29323060
Doppel = double, as in double pay. That's all there is to the definition. From what I've understood they'd probably be kept well away from the front ranks initially, allowing them to pull NCO duty and keep everyone else in line instead (a shortage of NCO/officers can quickly leave an otherwise healthy unit routing). It's when things are turning grim that you send them in to show the fresh recruits how is done.

The guys you make sure are in the front rank from the start are the convicts and other such, people you really won't miss.

>> No.29323229

>>29321813
Spears and bows are primarily formation weapons; they're not very effective individually, but in large numbers they become exponentially more effective. Swords are the opposite; they're awesome for single combat, but they're useless in a tight formation. Heroic characters typically fight by themselves, so a sword is more appropriate for them.

Maces, hammers, axes etc would also work, but thanks to centuries of anti-Germanic propaganda everybody now associates those kinds of weapons with savages and barbarians.

>> No.29323250
File: 135 KB, 900x675, 1389037912736.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29323250

>>29323083
Yeah, aside from ablative armour over maille and quilted defenses, or as a material component to mount armour onto, the cost to durability ratio is not all that great.

Thick, sole bend leather while in its self cheaper than steel, and more solid than quilted defenses, is not as durable as steel, or as versatile/easy to work with/cheap as quilted defenses. It is much better used for other purposes, such as shoeing, tack and saddle, straps, belts etc.

I wont say independent pieces of leather armor both curi boli and otherwise did not exist, but the overwhelming majority of surviving pieces tend to be used in conjunction rather than stand alone.

Pic related. Not 100% period correct, but it gives you a good idea.

>> No.29323265

>>29323229

No, even the Germans themselves preffered swords. There is no weapon better for the melee.

>> No.29323281
File: 60 KB, 521x596, 1284091311519.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29323281

>>29323142
>Btw those guys with uncomplete plates wore chainmail under their armor so you still can't slash them effectively.
No, most of them had munitions plate, which was just bulk-made plate that covered most of the vitals. They'd generally just wear padding with that since mail was expensive.
>Very different from our fantasy heroes who go dragon hunting only with their swords.
failing to see how that makes any real point
>I said except their armpits.
And I could point out 8-10 other points besides the armpits, 4 of them likely fatal, that someone could hit with most weapons and get through even full plate.

>> No.29323285
File: 18 KB, 500x381, 1364692671196.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29323285

>>29323086
Though keep in mind that any specific axe will tend top be made for some specific aspect of woodcutting/carpentry, or for combat. It's not the same tool doing all things well, it's an entire family of tools.

>>29323070
>The axe is another affair. It's wooden shaft but unpenetrant metal head

How unimaginative.

>> No.29323293

>>29323227
>>29323140
>>29323133
The way I understood it was always that "Verlorener Haufen/Verlorn Hoop/Forlorn Hope"are the group made up from people volunteering to be Doppelsöldners, but I'm just going to trust you guys on this one.

>> No.29323299

>>29322881
>flanking a tercio

>> No.29323324
File: 304 KB, 683x1024, 1338710134916.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29323324

>>29323142
>not realizing that the quilted defense is the basis on which all harnesses are built over.

>Not realizing that people of all statuses wore varying degrees are harness based on personal preference, performance, duty etc, not just financial reasonings.

>>29323163
Quilted defenses ARE padded defenses. It is the quilting that gives it its strength.

>> No.29323325

>>29323220
>What happened them to turn into such big pussies though? Roman people were known to have most militaristic culture among ancient civilizations.

Culture plays a role, but PTSD isn't something that just goes away if you have a sufficiently militaristic civilization. There's a reason a fuckton of literature from that period saying war is just as horrifying as it is glorious.

Also Roman culture wasn't particularly militarized. They knew what got the blood going, hence the Coliseums, but beyond that and an obligation to the military it wasn't exactly "Holy shit I just love war."

>> No.29323334

>>29323229
When trying to cut an armored civilian or animal it's best indeed. But when trying to cut anything with chainmail level of protection you will not cause any damage unless you are stabbing. Which would be really hard because of the reach traditional swords has so you will most likely not hurt your opponent enough and die.
(Shortsword are kinda useful though, if you use a giant shield and close knit formation)

Just think about it for a second how hard it would be to slash two metal things(sword and chainmail) against each other. And embrace the glorious power of maces.

>> No.29323380

>>29323265
But the modern perception of the Viking almost invariably has their preferred weapon as an axe, because civilized people like us western Europeans would never use such a crude and brutish weapon (just, uh, forget all those times when we actually did use them).

>> No.29323391

>>29321917
Clubs, bows, spears, and axes can all be used for purposes other than war. The sword's only purpose is slaying one's fellow man. It's not just a symbol of martial skill, it's a symbol of war.

>> No.29323401

>>29323380

And? That has nothing to do with historical useage.

>> No.29323419

>>29323285
>How unimaginative.

Sure, real war axes can have a thrusting point, but we're (okay, I'm) talking of representation and collective unconscious and how the typical fantasy axe is a large, slashing thing that can't be thrusted and is used by fuck-and-forget barbarians and by patriarchal dudes with beards and...

*actually look at the picture*

*head explode*

>> No.29323420

>>29323325
Actually no, guys didn't exactly loved dying part of the war but they sure loved the glory and honor which came with the war for them.

In their glory days and after the marius reforms you could find villages full of people wanting to join the army. Nobles that wanted to go to war and earn glory. They certainly weren't afraid of killing "Barbarians".

My theory for it is, all that auxilary recruits that came from outside roman culture and broken economy(hence the lesser rewarding military life) must have hurt their psychology.

>> No.29323466

>>29322336
Same reason we don't use swords when combat boarding teams board oil tankers/hydrogen/liquid natural gas tankers. We have beanbags/electric rounds that do the damage, and a wild sword swing could trivially damage exposed electrical circuitry, since assuming ungrounded electrical systems means you die.

You are an idiot.

>> No.29323474

>>29323391
Clearly you have never seen Casey Jones chopping carrots!

>> No.29323478 [DELETED] 
File: 120 KB, 355x500, Speisstrager-n-Knave.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29323478

>>29323293
The impression I've gotten is rather that you volunteer to the forlorn hope, not because you'll get paid more, but because you're in for a date with the hangman otherwise. Thus "forlorn hope", you hope that it'll save your life, but it's a pretty sad hope, quite possibly trading a not too quick death in the noose for a week of slowly rotting away as the gut wound turns gangrenous.

>> No.29323490

>>29323420
>In their glory days and after the marius reforms you could find villages full of people wanting to join the army.

This is what changed. Roman society became wealthy and soft, and soon only barbarians were willing to join the army. The barbarisation of its armed forces is what destroyed Rome, the greatness of Stilicho notwithstanding.

>> No.29323491

>>29323000
Which raises an interesting point: transition from bronze happened mainly because iron was more plentiful on Earth, but that doesn't necessarily have to be so on a fantasy world. I could see a setting where bronze is the major industrial metal long to the age of steam engine, and steel is a curiosity at best. How would this affect industrialization?

>> No.29323506

>>29323401
When did I say anything about historical usage?

>> No.29323520

>>29323478

Actually they tended to be richly rewarded. In teh French army, surviving would grant an immediate promotion to officer. There was actually more volunteers than needed in most situations.

>> No.29323522 [DELETED] 

>>29323210
This.
That aside, that fag has no idea what he is talking about. Hiding like bitches? If we are talking about a real life modern day war scenario, your utmost mission besides killing the enemy is to stay the fuck alive. And that is best achieved by "hiding like a bitch" aka minimizing chances of getting shot because you run into the open like a fucking retard spouting bullshit about MUH HONOUR.

>> No.29323523

>>29323478
"Forlorn Hope" actually doesn't have to do anything with hope. It's what Anglos trying to pronounce "Verloren Hoop" sounds like. But yeah, a lot of people did probably get volunteered as well.

>> No.29323549
File: 120 KB, 355x500, Speisstrager-n-Knave.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29323549

>>29323293
The impression I've gotten is rather that you volunteer to the forlorn hope, not because you'll get paid more, but because you're in for a date with the hangman otherwise. Thus "forlorn hope", you hope that it'll save your life, but it's a pretty sad hope, quite possibly trading a not too quick death in the noose for a week of slowly rotting away as the gut wound turns gangrenous.

>>29323420
Wasn't auxiliaries pretty limited until the late Empire? IMO the big psychological shift would be when serving in the army went from a privilege for the elite (early republic) to being a job for the poor (middle period, Caesar et.al.)

>> No.29323560

>>29321813
Movies and plays are the reason why swords are so popularized.
It's easy to clang around swords in an epic bout, but try that with most other weapons and it's nowhere near as flashy.

In literature however, the other weapons get their fair share of heroes.

>> No.29323587

>Spears
>Not the coolest weapon around
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8RWLxlzTiM

>> No.29323602

>>29323549
Being part of that or the Lost Children(French name for the same thing) was a tradition of sorts for young officers who wanted to prove their bravery.

See also the practice some native american tribes had of counting coup.

>> No.29323653

>>29323140
>>29323133
>>29323227
>>29323293

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelsöldner

>> No.29323678

>>29323281
First of all, i'm talking about late middle ages and start of early modern period.(15-16th century)

For the rest, let's try to simulate what you're saying in real battle situations. You're part of close ranged infinitary division with plate mails that came after spearman in battles. You charge into battle against unmounted knights(Which was common on late middle ages depending on who you are fighting) or mercenaries with incomplete plate armors.

You and your buddies carry swords and shields while your enemy carries Two handed Giant swords or maces or halberds or whatever you want. Both sides clashes at last and you and your enemy is surrounded by allies. You try to swing at the Armored enemy and hit. But oh noes your swing is ineffective because your sword just hit the enemies armor and kinetic force was lost because of the shape of the armor. You didn't damaged the armor and all the energy sword had was lost and redirected. He swings and crack open your skull/ribs with his weapon and you die/wounded enough to die soon.

Any attack you made on his plated would be useless while his attacks would kill or wound you even if you yourself were wearing plate. You have to attack his unprotected spots which would be hard to find when you can't aim at them in this range and when you are surrounded by people. Besides your opponent is a warrior that has trained for this combat too so he knows how protect his weak points. So this is really a shitty situation for you. If only you brought something else than the useless but pretty looking sword.

>> No.29323707

>>29321813
Hollywood bias, that's all.

>> No.29323732

>>29323678
>assumes you'd swing a sword at someone with plate armor
It's almost as if you don't know the first thing about fighting...

>> No.29323738
File: 328 KB, 1488x1488, vanilla cupcake 3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29323738

>>29323293
>The way I understood it was always that "Verlorener Haufen/Verlorn Hoop/Forlorn Hope"are the group made up from people volunteering to be Doppelsöldners, but I'm just going to trust you guys on this one.

Depends on the formation.

Usually and globally, they were made up of criminals before military law, the foolhardy, the most young and the most brave and people who had fallen from grace and needed to bring home some heads ASAP in order to regain their honour. The individual make-up of such units would vary in every instance, of course. As did their gear.

>>29323653
>secondary sources only
>general secondary sources only
>English sources only, on an early modern german topic
>there is no problem with this at all. None at all This article certainly is telling the whole story.

>> No.29323778

>>29323732
It's almost as if you don't know the first thing about war...

>> No.29323810

>>29323778
Says the one who assumes anyone without plate has no idea how to counter it.

>> No.29323854

>>29323678
Your sword is a sidearm that's quite useful in a pinch, even if you're against plate. Because Harnischfechten. You don't go into battle with it alone, but you're not fucked if that's what you have to rely on.

>> No.29323861

>>29323738
Not that guy, but the German WP has a nice period quote (God, this is painful to read...):
>[...]und ein freier landsknecht; der muoss vornen daran und ist würdig, das er ein doppelsoldner sei.
>[...]and a free Landsknecht must be in front and thus is worthy to be a Doppelsölder

>> No.29323902

>>29323738
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelsöldner

>Wer hierin küen und keck ist, der ist der best und ein freier landsknecht; der muoss vornen daran und ist würdig, das er ein doppelsoldner sei.“

>> No.29323951

>>29323861
Actually, scratch that, I completely missed the semicolon. The free Landsknecht part doesn't even belong in that sentence.
>He must be in front and thus is worthy to be a Doppelsöldner

>> No.29323955

>>29321813

1. Most other military weapons were designed for utilitarian purposes other than warfare. This is not the case with the sword.

2. In many cultures, the sword is the armament of the warrior or noble class, i.e. samurai or knight. The association between "sword" and "warrior" in western culture is strong because of stories like the Matter of France, or La Mort d'Arthur, where swords like Durendal or Excalibur exist. They continue to color the imaginations of modern writers.

>> No.29323995
File: 16 KB, 182x247, wtf.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29323995

>>29323861
>>29323902

You guys really don't understand the text, right?

It basically says "Those worthy of being called Doppelsöldner are the most depraved of this rotten and evil breed of men."

The quote says nothing about standing in the first row of a formation or belonging to a forlorn hope.

>> No.29324045

>>29323810
Oh there are ways i know. But only in a duel where you have any chance of maneuverability or have a chance of stumbling your enemy. In a battle you will not have those chances and swords will give you serious disadvantage against plated enemy. Life is not a movie or a cartoon. Fights does not last 2 minutes, they only last 10 second. All the training that you endured for decades will be for that 10 seconds. So don't tell me about how you can stab them in their armpits or their crotch. You will be dead if you can't pinpoint strike at the enemy. Against an enemy that brought mace or greatsword that can kill you or incapacitate you in 1-2 hits it's really a big disadvantage.

>> No.29324095

>>29323854
It's a side-arm that can be only used in a pinch or when your main weapon is rendered useless. Not a main weapon you expect to be useful against armored opponents.

That's what i have been saying from the start.

>> No.29324117

>>29321977
>>29322369

Swords were not created for being used as a tool for hunting, it is hard to dispute what the full original intent and use of a sword was and that is a weapon of warfare.

Hunting Swords are said to have developed in the 12th century, they were about the length of a short sword and often looked like the sword version of a bowie knife. They were most certainly not common with 'true' hunters as you or I might think of a hunter, they were usually used by nobility.

When nobility went hunting, as you often hear in many a medieval fiction story, they didnt go out with bows and stuff and killed game that way. It was a miniature war campaign. They did not sneak up or wait for a good prey to sneak up on them and then kill it swiftly. No these were hardcore conquests with th prey chased and run down till it was exhausted.

You usually had many 'phases' in this hunt, first and most important were the more 'traditional' huntsmen. These guys went skulking through the woods gathering dropping and other signs of deer and then study them, comparing each one for how fresh and recent it was and how big the deer that made them must be.

Once they made their selection ad figured out the most likely path of the target, they sent out a wide spread of dog teams, usually 2-3 dogs per team. When the target was spotted a horn would be sounded and the hunt was on with the closest dog team chasing the deer towards the other dog teams. Each team would essentially play ping pong with each other with the deer as the ball they keep scaring to the others. this often would take a large amount of time but eventually the deer would begin to tire and stop running, instead it would fight back.

This is when the leader of the hunt and his retinue came into the hunt, typically the king or other highly prominent noble, he would take a lance and charge the deer to prove his martial prowess. Swords were used when the leader wished to show off.

Medieval hunting was hardcore.

>> No.29324151

>>29324095
Assuming you ignore Estocs and blades that were designed for defeating armor you'd have a point.

>> No.29324175

>>29324045
>>29324095

HOW TO FIGHT A MAN IN PLATE ARMOR WITH A LONGSWORD

STEP ONE: Hold your sword by the blade.

STEP TWO: Hit the other guy in the head or helmet with the crossguard

STEP THREE: Allow archers to jab a knife in his visor while he's stunned or lying on the ground with a concussion.

>> No.29324227

>>29323995
Yes it actually does.

>der muoss vornen daran

>> No.29324242

>>29323490
>The barbarisation of its armed forces is what destroyed Rome, the greatness of Stilicho notwithstanding.

Hardly.

The thing that killed Rome was an antiquated central administration chugging along on mounting debts and a hideously bloated bureaucracy. You have an Imperial Government running on an immensely simplistic "Alliance of Cities" system while most of said cities have long since turned over control of the Curiales to their provincial governors.

The military did play a role, but not because of barbarisation; the Legions became rabid, they realized that the power of an Emperor comes through them, and only them. Because of this the Legions were able to demand more and more benefits, such as getting to wear gold rings that signify one as being part of the Equestrian class. If a potential Emperor refuses... Well, there's probably someone else who will.

Not to mention the German migrations that were a result of overpopulation, arable land, the collapse of cushion vassal states, and the rise of the Sassanid Empire, who were really equals in terms of economic/military might compared to Rome.

>> No.29324266

>>29323491
>How would this affect industrialization?

While the best tempered iron will only be an equal to bronze, steel really is superior.

>> No.29324312

>>29324175
STEP FOUR: Wake up and realise you were just animu-dreaming.

>> No.29324336

>>29324151
Man those must be nightmare to use. Only advantage they have over(or difference?) spears is their durability. Which is useful against Great swords i guess.

>> No.29324343

>>29324312
>mordhau
>animu-dreaming

I would pay good money for an anime that has mordhauing in it.

>>29316977

>> No.29324371

>>29324343

>I would pay good money for an anime that has realistic Western swordplay.

Fixed.

>I would pay good money for an anime that has a realistic portrayal of Medieval Western society.

Fixed even more.

>> No.29324438

>>29324336
Remember, these people weren't idiots. If they used something, it was because it had a use.

I think the Poles had an estoc-like blade that their Hussars liked. I never remember the name, though.

>> No.29324530

>>29324438

>Remember, these people weren't idiots. If they used something, it was because it had a use.

I never said that. I'm just saying using that pointy stick to hit the visor in the helmet or weakpoints in the armor must be a nightmare.

Well, i guess i forgot another possibility to use it though. Which makes it closer to a club than a sword but you can swing it and wound the person inside the armor if you hit him in the side or with the right angle from the front.

>> No.29324577

>>29324227

IN WHAT must he be the first of the lot?

IN WHAT?

In being a depraved criminal.

That's what the whole passage is about - about Landsknechts being depraved, sub-human criminal vermin.

It isn't technical writing, the author is basically telling us that merchenaries are a specific brand of criminals at home in Germany, he isn't talking about how they're employed in war at any single point of the text.

>> No.29324625
File: 190 KB, 778x598, Bad-war.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29324625

>>29324530
There's halfswording to get a bit better leverage, but that means getting really close. In a bad melee, though, that may be possible. I mean, in the time period we're talking about, melee was generally carried out at pike range or in the swirling clusterfuck of pic related. Knights weren't so much the be all end all of war anymore.

>> No.29324629

>>29323995
>>29324577
That's just the first part though.The quoted part states you had to be in front to receive double pay, which you needed to waste it on the activities described earlier.

>> No.29324684

>>29321813
It as already been said, but it boils down to two things :
>the sword is a "pure" weapon, something created for war and can't be used for anything else
>the only other medieval "pure" weapons are lances, maces and polearms. infantry lances are only good when wielded in big units, same for polearms/halberds. Maces and flails are pretty iconic.

>> No.29324765

>>29322170
>retardation
this is actually a cavalry weapon and you didn't swing it around like some downs-ridden potato, you just let the chain hang at head's height and rode by hoping it would hit someone in the face

>> No.29324796

Swords also symbolized manhood. Just putting it out there.

>> No.29324851

>>29323210
Funny thing, hitting people in the crotch was considered totally honorable in a duel.

>> No.29324864

>>29324577
What >>29324629 says. The author starts by saying that Mercenaries are depraved criminals. Then he goes on saying that the best in being depraved criminals fight up front and are worthy of getting double pay.

>> No.29324900
File: 1.10 MB, 1860x2531, MaryRose-bollock_daggers.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29324900

>>29324796
The middle ages were never exactly subtle in their dick imagery.

>> No.29324904

>>29324629
>>29324864

I conceed having been wrong then.

>> No.29324933

>>29324900
>dragon dildos, bah
>I got better
>sword dildo

>> No.29325007

>>29322301
>Not only that, but the sword is the first true "weapon" ie. something that is designed specifically for killing people and not for killing animals.
No, that was the warhammer.

>> No.29325075

>>29325007
The warhammer is arguably derived from construction tools. Hell, I even have one at my countryside house, and it could totally bash some heads.

>> No.29325079

>>29322266
Funny how real musketers usually relied more on clubbing people to death with the back of their guns over swordplay in close quarters.

>> No.29325149

>>29325075
It's bloody ancient. Literally rock on a stick ancient, and was used by people to smash skulls before masonry was even conceived.

>> No.29325215

>>29325149
I'm pretty sure people needed to plant their hide and sticks huts firmly in the ground. Seriously rock-on-stick is shit when it comes to a weapon.

>> No.29325305

>>29325215
Strictly speaking, you could use a larger stick for that. The flint used in neolithic times would be shit for actual tools.

>> No.29325325

>>29325079
>usually relied more on clubbing people to death with the back of their guns over swordplay
Well I bet that its quite entertaining way of killing someone, rather than slicing/stubbing the poor bastard.

>> No.29325414

>>29324175
typically when men in armor fought they usually did not aim for a swift kill, they aimed to overpower the opponent so he had enough time to yield before death. Men in armor = someone you ransom.

>> No.29325436

>>29325305
Or a larger rock too, but anyway I I was Ogg, palaeolithic warrior, I would prefer some reliable flame-burned pointy stick to a heavy, short reached and fragile stone on stick.

>> No.29325527

>>29325007
Notice how the warhammer has the word 'war' in it? it means the version of the hammer designed to be more useful in combat then a normal hammer. This implies it's original use was not for war.

I also do not beleive warhammers predate swords. Hammers in general definitely, but not hammers tailor made specifically for combat.

>> No.29325534
File: 440 KB, 752x1032, bardiche.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29325534

>>29325079
>>29325325
Guess what the bardiche was used for.

>> No.29325578

>>29325534
Back up weapon + help to stabilize the arquebus.

>> No.29325579

>>29322339
ohgods! Source!?

>> No.29325595

>>29321813
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1u4j68/were_swords_as_common_in_medieval_times_as_books/

I recommend you to read this. Most people there can also show you the source of their information too so they're really credible.

>> No.29325632

>>29321846
>>29321909
>>29321917

These guys get it.

It's all about romanticism. Swords are super cool, so heroes use swords.

Just as western cultures treat the pistol, or shonen manga/anime treats pointy hair, so does the fantasy genre treat the sword.

>> No.29325736

>>29322178
>If you hug someone from behind they pass out

>> No.29325746

>>29322585
Duel wielding guns is also asking for death. I would argue duel wieldig swords is more effective than guns.

>> No.29325786
File: 2.41 MB, 352x152, 1389044804221.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29325786

>>29322339

>> No.29325945

>>29325079
I have see a lovely illustration of two soldier fighting
first they shoot at each other with muskets.
then pistols.
then they club at each other with their muskets.
then their musket-rests.
then one of them swings his gunpowder bottles as a flail
I forget what the other does to retaliate.
Then they beat each other with their helmets.
Before finally one punches the other to death with his fists...
...and then loot his corpse

>> No.29326053

>>29321917
>>29321878
>>29321853
>>29321846
So a sword is essentially just a weapon to assert that you're better than everyone else?

Why does /tg/ love the weapon equivalent of an Elf?

>> No.29326078

>>29326053
>Brown sword thread

>> No.29326080

>>29326053
Because we want to compensate for being at the bottom row of the social ladder.

>> No.29326087

>>29326053
You never noticed /tg/'s massive boner for polearms? Swords aren't nearly as beloved here.

>> No.29326091

>>29326053
who said TG loves swords?
its a shitty mary sue weapon in fiction and a shittier ineffective weapon IRL

>> No.29326146

>>29323466
That and the fact that the smaller hallways make swords and whatnot unwieldy when a small shotgun or pistol can be pointed and aimed, no swinging required.

>> No.29326252

>>29322670
Musashi was also famous not for winning his duels with two swords but with one stick. Bokken, but still. He killed his most notable rival with an oar he widdled down using a sword he had. That man beat a lot of people to death.

>> No.29326496
File: 135 KB, 584x600, ohlawd.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29326496

>>29322482

>> No.29326501

>>29322098
7 samurai. they were epic weapons, a large part of the story revolves around capturing the enemy guns in preparation for the actual showdown

>> No.29326878
File: 1.92 MB, 256x144, 1373506893345.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29326878

>>29324343
>mordhau
>a technique that has a success rate of less than 1%
>all these while leaving you pretty vulnerable

Do you even sword anon?

>> No.29326924

>>29326878
reminds me of this guy trying to set a guiness worldbook record breaking 100 coconuts with his bare hands, he couldn't even break one.

>> No.29326943

>>29321813

Swords are the handguns of society. When you waltz around in a city, you don't carry a rifle.

You carry a handgun.

>> No.29327007

>>29325414
This anon gets it!

>> No.29327145

>>29324242
fuck, the germans were the mexicans of rome

>> No.29327157

>>29322366
It's 2014. One hundred years ago was World War One. A war involving almost all of the civilized world.

I understand your point but it's not surprising that there were more casualties then.

>> No.29327219

>>29327157
I am pretty we are comparing per capita death toll rather then outright figures.
Also, world war 1 was fought with guns and we are comparing gun warfare to pre-gun warfare. so why the fuck are you comparing ww1 to current wars?

>> No.29327235

>>29327219
well, WWI was also fought with chemical weapons like the mustard gas

>> No.29327242

>>29327157
In fact he is right, the casualties rate in wars is really lower in the last 150 years than before. In ancient Greece you could expect 80% casualties, WWI was more around 15%.

>> No.29327397

>>29322098
Because single shot muzzle loading weapons are crap in a personal fight. They're weapons for the battlefield. Musashi said guns were the best until you got into the range at which swords are drawn. Because a sword can swing faster than a gun can be reloaded.
I'm sure he'd disagree if he saw a modern handgun.

>>29322192
Nearly every hero in The Romance of the Three Kingdoms uses some kind of pole-weapon. Guan Yu had one NAMED after him.

>>29322825
I don't care how many gunmen you have, if you have a bunch of swordmen mixed in their ranks stabbing them, they're not going to stand around spending 20 seconds to reload their gun. They're going to pull out their own swords. Do you even know what close combat is?

>> No.29327410

>>29323041
>>29322969
It's not white flight, it's class based flight, middle income leaves when low income starts to enter the neighborhood, high leaves when lower middle enters. I do it if anyone moves into my neighborhood.

>> No.29327454

>>29322266
>The reason is really simple: sword fights are way cooler than gunfights.
For the mass media, at least. And even then there are tons of exceptions.

>> No.29327482

>>29322384
>Mail wasn't quite that tough and it wasn't that hard to just use something pointy(like a sword or dagger) to get through the padding without even breaking the mail.
This is a pretty common myth. Well made mail was pretty strong.

>> No.29327555

>>29327235
which reduces the weight of guns when it comes to killing.
So, the argument of "guns replacing swords causes more wars and those wars a bloodier" an even fucking stupider argument

>> No.29327584

>>29327482
second, it is really hard to pierce well-made mail with a sword
would be easier to just aim for the joints and hope to damage them by the impact force, then if you really want to, try your best at piercing the rings

>> No.29327620

In a sword fight you can have the two combatants on the screen at the same time during a movie, due to the short range.
So can a knife fight but knives are small swords and bigger is better.

Sword fights on TV are more tramatic than hammer or axe fight because the fucktards at home thinks its perfectly ok and believble for two guys to smash their sword's edges against each other while with an axe or a hammer you have to block or dodge which isn't as awesome

>> No.29327653

How good are spears and polearms in a duel? are you just asking to have your opponent in-step you and slice up up the middle whilst he's inside your guard?

>> No.29327728

>>29326252
Don't forget that Musashi is also famous for creating his own dual wielding style, 二天一流.

>> No.29327756

>>29327653
those weapons were used by formations of people charging against the other side, a wall of shields and pike or a fields of halberd is really hard to charge thru

>> No.29327817

>>29321813
>Whenever I read about ancient warfare it seems like swords were really second banana to other weapons like spears and bows.
You and everyone else who thinks that is wrong.

>> No.29327910
File: 404 KB, 200x183, welp.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29327910

>>29327482
>he can't bust maille with a rondel

>> No.29327973
File: 293 KB, 455x610, calm down.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29327973

>>29327817
I know, right? It's like they don't know that swords supplanted the stone axe that was the original ancient symbol of manliness and foundation of the patriarchy and western society.

>> No.29328176

>>29327973
Beyond that, swords were good reliable weapons practically everybody used. People have been using swords for the overt purpose of killing people since the beginning of recorded history. If the sword was purely an ornamental or ceremonial accoutrement, it would be renamed, like the club became the scepter. I can't get over the level of autism it takes to ignore historical evidence because of idle thought experiments.

>> No.29328402

>>29325945
2+invuln.jpg

>> No.29328424

>>29328176
>since the beginning of recorded history
Not really true, considering that recorded history is generally agreed to start in 3500 BC. Honestly, recorded history most likely predated widespread sword use on the scale of hundreds of years. The oldest evidence of a swordlike weapon if I recall correctly is from 3300 BC in Turkey or somesuch, and it was agreed that for phenotypical reasons they were more long daggers than true ancestors of the sword. Blades of a length that we would even consider short-swords wouldn't really be a thing until the late Bronze.

I wouldn't go around drawing arbitrary lines between idle thought experiments and historical evidence. Unless you think you've got the chops, that is.

>> No.29328647

>>29322909
What a lame excuse to spout anti-gun bullshit.

>> No.29328673

>>29327397
> if you have a bunch of swordmen mixed in their ranks stabbing them
If they can even reach that far...

We're saying the same thing in different way anon.

Essentially: Guns>Swords in most conditions.

>> No.29328710
File: 1.75 MB, 2048x2480, 1339561292774.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29328710

>>29326078
Done!
Pic related is the spirit of a sword, after all.

>> No.29328722

>>29327653
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8RWLxlzTiM
This good

>> No.29328731

>>29323163
>Very heavy and clumsy to move in.
Not true.

>> No.29328812

>>29326053
/tg/ actually loves polearms because they gotta be the snowflake all the time.

>> No.29328843

>>29328722
>this video is spear vs sword
>not nick vs mike
Come on, gentlemen.

>> No.29328970

>>29322217
So naive! War and violence has always been about, you know, maximizing your success and minimizing your opponent's success.

>> No.29329036

>>29326878
>a technique that has a success rate of less than 1%
>citation needed

>> No.29329068

>>29326087
I wish I had a scanner, so I could post that page of polearm types from Kobold Wizard's +2 Dildo of Enlightenment, including the Polesword, Polebat'leth, and Poleweaponfromthatmoviekrull

>> No.29329094

>>29321813
It is more personal.
being so much closer to the ennemy and yet having something more intimidating in you hands then a knife

>> No.29329135

>>29329068
what would the
>poleweaponfromthatmoviekrull
look like?
A saw blade on the end of a pole?
>polebat'leth
Its a man catcher.
>polesword
naginata. or long bladed spear

>> No.29329153

>>29322909
>Poor nigger women are not allowed to defend themselves against rapists, they should just get raped
>Rich white women are not allowed to defend themselves against rapists, they should spend a fortune moving to a highly secure neighborhood.
>Nobody ever gets raped in an expensive gated community
>No middle class individuals exist
wow, you a fucking retard!

>> No.29329208

>>29328424
>another prehistory fag
Thank god. It's so lonely in here, sometimes. The normal fag sometimes act really hyped to talk about it, but they just drop a few posts about atlatl and then they're spent. It makes me feel like I fell in love with prehistory for nothing.

>> No.29329271

>>29322252
mate mail was expensive, swords could be pretty cheap because it doesn't take half as much metal or time to create a sword.
It wouldn't have been a great sword, just a pointy jagged piece of metal with a hilt, but depending on the time period swords weren't as lordly as /tg/ will have you think.

Cheap swords were common, but decent swords were expensive and rare

>> No.29329336

>>29329153

alternatively if the government bans guns there's a massive reduction in shootings. shocker!

>> No.29329351

>>29326252
As someone who's been hit with bokken before, there is no shame in losing a fight to a competent guy with a bokken. Even if it's blunt, it's still a hard piece of bamboo and because it's so light a guy swordsman can get in like 3 hits for every one of yours. And a jab in the throat is near as dangerous with a blunt stick as it is with a sword.

>> No.29329360

>>29329135
>A saw blade on the end of a pole?
Yep.

>polebat'leth
>Its a man catcher.
Actually it was more like a bardiche or lochaber axe that someone put on backwards

>polesword
>naginata. or long bladed spear
Not if the end of the pole is a big wooden hand grasping a sword, that's at a 135 degree or so angle from the pole. I guess you could call it a naginata or glaive made by some really drunk blacksmith?

>> No.29329440

>>29329336
>alternatively if the government bans guns there's a massive reduction in shootings. shocker!
1. its not an alternative, its a completely unrelated argument (murder rate) which is on the same side (gun ban) as the retard who posted earlier
2. The reduction in shooting corresponds with a massive surge of stabbing.

>> No.29329536
File: 17 KB, 287x250, my face..jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29329536

>>29329153
>Rape, rape everywhere

You sound like a feminist.

>> No.29329577

>>29329440
>2. The reduction in shooting corresponds with a massive surge of stabbing.

You're so close to realizing that weapon ownership of the population is a neutral factor to the crime rate. Shame that you'll never actually make it there.

>> No.29329624

>>29329577
the only reason you would say what you just did is if you are either retarded or assuming all anons are the same person... which also makes you retarded

>> No.29329626
File: 173 KB, 1500x1500, WPBOK40-772.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29329626

>>29329351
>bokken
>a hard piece of bamboo

wrong. A bokken is a solid piece of wood, pic related.

The bamboo sword is associated with the sport Kendo, and is called a Shinai

now you know

>> No.29329685

>>29329336
alternatively bad guys still get guns because they're already disobeying the laws, shocker!

>> No.29329742
File: 1.68 MB, 328x241, power rangers rita gif.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29329742

>>29329626
>what the fuck's wrong with the grain of that bokken?
>maybe it's a homemade western version
>Google image search
>www.excaliburbrothers.com/store

>> No.29329863

>>29329742
omg it's hilarious
>go to site
>item name is "Natural Wood Samurai Katana by Musashi Swords"
lauging, tears streaming down my face

>> No.29329955

>>29329742
>>29329863
jesus fuck you autists I spent 5 seconds googling bokken and it looks close enough to get the point across.

It appears you all don't realize this isn't actually an informative dissertation on the bokken.

>> No.29330070

>>29329955
I'm not criticizing you, just the bokken pictured. I think the other anon is in the same boat. I totally get that it's just a googled throwaway bokken image, and it definitely does get the point across.

But if you post a horse with a fucked up head in a bow thread, I'm still going to go "wtf up with that horse" despite it clearly getting the point across and horses being only incidental to the topic.

>> No.29330094
File: 54 KB, 640x480, mk.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29330094

>>29330070
As the other anon, I can verify this state of mind.

>> No.29330134

It's sort of why, except in very realistic modern military fiction, the hero almost always uses a handgun or a smaller SMG (if they're not using those, they're using a sniper rifle) while the line infantry use what would be most common weapon of that era (assault rifles for modern day, battle rifles + SMGs for WW2, bolt action rifles or muskets for pre-WW2).

It's all about being distinctive in both visual and in skill level from the "average" warrior.

>> No.29330530
File: 81 KB, 664x500, 1357004283887.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
29330530

>>29329336
>Gun crime has been steadily pulmetting since the 1980s and is now at historical lows.

>> No.29330595

>>29329336
But the worst states in the US for gun crime are also the states with the most bans on guns.

>> No.29330833

>>29329536
It's the millennium edition of Godwin's law. If you can't go straight to Nazi's or Hitler go for rape.

>> No.29330853

>>29329360
true, what if the giant hand had a giant wrist with a range of motion. floppy floppy spear pick sword

>> No.29330935

>>29329336
>>29330530
>Arguing whether gun bans reduce/increase crimes where a gun is used by the criminal
>Not arguing whether it reduces/increase all crime
what?

>> No.29330985

>>29330935
Go ahead. You argue that gun bans reduce / increase all crime. I'll watch.

>> No.29331638

>>29324242
>Legions killed Rome

This is such a huge factor. Most of the political instability was caused by Legions appointing their generals to Imperator which would then lead to constant civil wars that sapped manpower, tax base, and the economy. Tack onto this a slave population that was so large it was strangling economic opportunities forcing more and more naturalized Romans into the provinces or throwing them into the army to make a decent living and you have rapid decentralization and constant civil war.

>> No.29332046

>>29331638
Not to mention the over-dependence on mercenary forces, though that has been somewhat exaggerated of late.

>> No.29332487

>>29331638
>decentralization
this word does not mean what you think it does

>> No.29333555

>>29332487
He could be correct, there are other applications of decentralization other than political.

So anon, you were talking about the rapid decentralization of what, exactly?

>> No.29334203

short answer: because they were symbolic.

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