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[ERROR] No.29282835 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Which Space Marine legion is your favourite, and why, /tg/? Asking out of general interest. And to stir things

Also, which Legion do you like the playstyle/rules for? What is your oppion of the legion lists?

>> No.29283300

>>29282835
Blood Ravens because they stole my heart.

>> No.29283378

>>29283300
>Blood Ravens
>Legion

>> No.29283481

>>29283378
QUICK BEFORE HE STATES THEY'RE THOUSAND SONS...ALSO CRUISE CONTROL

>> No.29283579

Templar's and death guard. Templar's because tankred endures and death guard because nurgle is tits.

>> No.29283982

>>29283579
Jesus christ, Templar's are not a LEGION...

>> No.29284030

>>29283982
they are legion strength though

>> No.29284054

>>29283481

I think it was the idea that blood ravens are a chapter, and were never a legion (unlike the Ultramarines, for instance...or the Thousand Sons).

>> No.29284064

The Legion of Doom.

>> No.29284096

these guys

>> No.29284099

The Iron Hands are the best chapter because of thematic consistency (They're the Iron Hands, led by Iron Hands, who has Iron Hands. Also, most of them get Iron Hands).

My second vote goes to the Raven Guard because I liked playing Kayvan Shrike with my Codex Marines.

>> No.29284135

Iron Warriors

They are grim, relentless, even before the Heresy the Emperor understood they were dangerous enough that they needed to be covered in hazard stripes, and when they get really mad they turn into guns, because being a daemon prince is for nerds.

>> No.29284180

>>29284030
Not even close. They're estimated to be somewhere between 5-7k. Pre-Heresy Imperial Fists numbered at least around the 100k mark.

>> No.29284220

Loyalist? White Scars, because MongolSpaceBikers FUCK YEAH

Traitor? Night Lords, because ADB made them awesome

>> No.29284427

30k Iron Hands seem kinda OP.

>> No.29284480

Salamanders, not really sure why

>> No.29284506

Night Lords is the only correct answer

Psycho Batmen that live for terror and punishment

I just wish they werent portrayed so cowardly.

>loyalist? ehhhh I have no idea. you guys have to help me find one. Im open to suggestions.

>> No.29284537

Loyalist: Salamanders.

Traitor: Word Bearers.

>> No.29284540

>>29284135
This. Also Word Bearers for being zealous fanatics, but in the right way.

>> No.29284563

Ultramarines.
>Fuckyeah Romans in Spess!
Also, Evocati from Armatura are boss, even though they died to a man.

>> No.29284656

Post-Heresy Emperor's Children. Just because they're universally hated fuckheads.

>> No.29284732

>>29284220
>Night Lords, because ADB made them whiny manbabbies

>> No.29284827

Thousand Sons. Nothing cooler than magic in a Sci Fi setting. Especially when done by huge super humans in heavy armor. Their backstory where they were betrayed by their allies and now seek revenge is also cool.

I really hope forgeworld does them justice. I wonder how much longer we'll be waiting for thousand sons :/

>> No.29284862

>>29284827
Battle of Prospero is the next book in the series, so not too long my blue and dusty / red and scaraby friend!

>> No.29284863

Ultramarines
>No angst
>Fight with courage and honour
>Not pigeon holed into doing one thing only
>Cool classical aesthetic
>Cool colour scheme

>> No.29284883

Blood Angels, specifically, the Lamenters. They selflessly sacrifice themselves for the continued existence of mankind, and that makes them utterly badass.

>> No.29284921

Imperial Fists. They and every chapter they've founded are just awesome.

>> No.29284945

>>29284863
Hard to have angst when you don't really do anything.

>> No.29284971

>>29284945
Ultramarines do as much as anyone else, but they don't have to cry about their dead primarch for ten thousand years either.

>> No.29284980

SPACE MOTHERFUCKING WOLVES

NOW COME AT ME!

>> No.29284994

>>29284971
Because their primarch isn't "dead" because they're infallible.

>> No.29285000

>>29284945

>only Legion to have actually built an empire within the empire based on the Emperors ideals
>one of very few Legions who are actually planning ahead to a post crusade era, before the heresy hits
>done nothing

Riiiight.

>> No.29285011

>>29285000
So they're more like bureaucrats. That's kind of cool.

>> No.29285017

>>29284994
But he is dead and the Ultramarines recognize him as such, it's human pilgrims who say that he's healing.

>> No.29285041

>>29285011
They're warriors who are smart enough to form and run a government, yeah.

>> No.29285055

>>29285041
That's what I just said.

>> No.29285076

>>29284945
>Hard to have angst when you don't really do anything.
What? You can't go anywhere in 40K without running into a smurf. Those guys are fucking everywhere at every time.

>> No.29285090

>>29282835
in my dream rts, the flamer units for my army all sound like firebats from brood war

fire puns all day

>> No.29285121

>>29285055
I know, hence my agreeing, "yeah." Ultramarines are warriors who are smart enough to form and run a government.

>> No.29285136

Didn't want to post this in a new thread: I bought some vallejo paints forever ago and now they're all caked and all I get is thin watery soup with flecks of paint in it. If I agitate them enough will it get better or is it all fucked? They're all in the bottles still.

>> No.29285156

>>29285121
I wouldn't say "smart enough" I'd say more like "care enough" or "have enough free time."

>> No.29285164

Best legion.

>> No.29285165

>>29285136
This is a fluff thread, nigga, go start a hobby one.

>> No.29285181

>>29284506
>implying Night Lords could be portrayed as anything other than cowards without not being Night Lords anymore

That's the core of what they are, dude.

>> No.29285192

>>29285090
Need a light?

>> No.29285200

>>29284921
*imperialfist*
My favorites are Luna Wolves-Black Legion but Imperial Fists really do kick ass. Favorite loyalist chapter, in fact.

>> No.29285207

>>29285156
No, definitely smart enough. If the others were smart enough then they would care enough about the superior logistical abilities a well maintained empire would grant them. Such efficiency has allowed the Ultramarines to assemble the most glorious battle record of the Chapters and apparently allows them enough free time to run an Empire.

>> No.29285208

>>29284506
>I just wish they werent portrayed so cowardly.
But, anon, the Night Lords ARE cowards.

>> No.29285226

>>29284862
>Battle of Prospero
Shit, what? Hasn't that been covered twice already?

>> No.29285227

>>29285181
>>29285208
Only in ADB crap.

>> No.29285249

>>29285200
When are we going to get mounts like the Space Wolves?

>> No.29285256

>>29285226
In the fiction books, but not the Forge world game ones. I think I read Space Wolves and Custodes/Sisters of SIlence will also be in it.

>> No.29285265

>>29285249
Castles don't move, brother. ;_;

>> No.29285269

>>29285207
>glorious battle record

Except for the assault on Terra, obviously.

>> No.29285287

>>29285265
Faggot.

>> No.29285304

>>29285226
Not by FW with a large model release and accompanying rules book, like Istvaan

>> No.29285312

>>29285269
Of course, why would they need to Assault Terra?

>> No.29285324

>>29284732
>Implying the Night Lords weren't always whiny manbabbies

It's in their Index Astartes article that they're a bunch of limp-dick pussies.

>> No.29285326

>>29285265
Even the Ultras get mounts.

>> No.29285335

>>29285227
Not my fault you like the scaredy-cat marines.

>> No.29285341

>>29285312
Someone disagreed with them about something?

>> No.29285345

>>29285227
Zso Sahaal was a cowardly nigger, anon. Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

>> No.29285366

>>29285341
Then they just calmly walk in and lay down the law, no need for an assault.

>> No.29285383

>>29285366
Humans? I was talking more about other Space Marines.

>> No.29285400

>>29285383
Same applies.

>> No.29285422

>>29285400
Of course it does.

>> No.29285467

>>29285422
Yes. The Ultramarines easily got 50 Chapters behind them, they got the Legions to split, got another Chapter to feel so bad that they went on a suicide mission to repent for their faggotry.

>> No.29285482

>>29282835
Til the end times.

>> No.29285532

>>29282835
The Grey Knights Legions

They have the power of Mat Ward and 12 year old appeal behind them, allowing their forces to be near infinite and overwhelm all others in mary sue.

>mfw Grey Knight Terminators become horde to reflect 40k tabletop relatity.

>> No.29285540

>>29285467
That's why I said of course. Nobody would dare stand up to them. Every space marine wants to be an ultramarine at heart.

>> No.29285587

>>29285540
>That's why I said of course.

I know, hence why I began with "Yes."I merely felt like extrapolation in this fine best Legion thread.

>> No.29285609

>>29285532
>Grey Knight hordes
>6e

Shouldn't you get your hearing aid in to listen to the wireless, grandpa?

>> No.29285906

>>29282835

Either Imperial Fists or Salamanders, although Word Bearers are pretty cool too.

Imperial Fist because I love their whole mentality of digging in and enduring. I remember with 4th ed Space Marines, the Imperial Fist section featured an Lysander leading an Imperial Fist force on Miral against a portion of Hive Fleet Kraken. The general direction was that they'd dug in. And resisted Tyranid attacks over an extended period, but tactical projections predicted they'd be overrun the next day, so a withdrawal is advised. The chaplains walked amongst the battle brothers demanding 'One more day on Miral! One more day for the honour of Rogal Dorn!' And the next day they shatter the tyranid advance by refusing to give any ground, winning the battle and defying the projections.

And Salamanders cause they're bros, and Vulkan is pretty cool.

Iron hands get in because of Ferrus Manus

And Word Bearers have an admirable purpose and it's only thanks to the Emperor being a bit of a fedora-tipper that they found another avenue.

>> No.29285914

>>29285249
>>29285200

Shame our Primarch was so fucking retarded

>> No.29285946

>>29285914
What makes you say that?

>> No.29285959

>>29285467

Not to mention it was *heavily* implied they got the Marines from the 2nd and 11th Legions.

>> No.29285988

>>29285914
Everyone's primarch was a retard, it becme a law in the BL HH series.

>>29285959
Not really, it was the opion of a Butthurt Word Bearer, I think ADB even said it was bullshit in a forum post later.

>> No.29286011

>>29285946

The Iron Cage.

Getting himself killed.

>> No.29286030

>>29284099
Best chapter and LEGION you mean?

>> No.29286040

>>29285959
That was two Word Bearers shooting the shit and is in no way supposed to be the canon explanation for the fate of the lost legions.

>> No.29286041

>>29285609
It was a figure of speech, son. See back in muh day wehader......*snore*

>> No.29286049

>>29284427
Only if you think it is all about shooting.
Inb4 shooty edition.

>> No.29286094

>>29285326

>> No.29286098

>>29286041
>It was a figure of speech, son.

Yer figure of speech doesn't work because Grey Knights aren't that popular anymore. For Grey Knights to be true to table top in fluff they'd have to be a force rarely see against the background roving and unstoppable Eldar and Tau hordes.

>> No.29286122

>>29286094
Oh no, a fire salamander-salamander!
Run!

>> No.29286124

>>29286094

>> No.29286140

>>29286011

It's not his fault he was written out poorly.

Died on some random class chaos cruiser piloted by some chaos nobody IIRC

If the Imperium had a Primarch stomping around now it'd do wonders for moral and battles no doubt, he probably should have just retreated to fight another day.

>> No.29286146

>>29286124
Fuck you, that's hilarious.
Do rainbow warriors next please.

>> No.29286155

>>29286146
That's a good idea.

>> No.29286170

>>29286155

>> No.29286172

>>29285988
>Everyone's primarch was a retard, it becme a law in the BL HH series.

It tends to be best to simply ignore BL outright.

>> No.29286193

>>29286170

>> No.29286197

>>29286170

>> No.29286214

>>29286172
Unfortunately like the anal leakage that it is, BL HH shit has begun to seep into decent emprah fearing canon.

>> No.29286219

>>29286172
Especifically certain empires which should stay unremebered.
At least we now know why the Harlequines seldom let anyone into the black libraryö
Some things better stay forgotten.

>> No.29286241

>>29286146

>> No.29286242

>>29286197
>>29286193
>>29286170
>>29286155
>>29286124
>>29286094
Thanks, this makes me smile.

>> No.29286246

>>29286197

>> No.29286263

My favourite legion was unfortunately destroyed by the Inquisition; any rumours that they are still active and working to enact some hidden, catastrophic, plan should be discounted as Heresy.

>> No.29286270

>> No.29286291

>>29286270

>> No.29286311

>>29286291

>> No.29286320

>>29286214
>>29286172
>>29285988

> Isstvan IV was 8 years ago.

8 years of fucking filler.

Each book getting worse and worse.

I'm going to make up one the next upcoming Heresy books right here.

X, Primarch of the X, travels to X where he encounters X and makes a discovery which could alter the course of the entire Heresy.

>> No.29286333

>>29286291
Okay, nicely done.

>> No.29286342

>>29286241
Thank you photoshop wizard/tech priest.

>> No.29286366

>>29286263
They weren't destroyed by the inquisition.
Not even propaganda wise, they only hush them up, don't they?

>> No.29286379

>>29286333

I'm out of images. Hell, the Rainbow Warriors image is a new addition to my collection.

We need more of them. Who has photoshop and far too much time on their hands?

>> No.29286383

>> No.29286394

>>29282835

Guess.

>> No.29286403

>>29286366

>So far, the Alpha Legion has been declared wiped out by the High Lords of Terra no less than three times, in M31, M32 and M39. These claims have always been disproved by the continued assaults of the Legion.

>> No.29286414

>>29285227
>Horus Heresy Book II: Betrayal
>Legiones Astartes (Night Lords): Have the following special rules:
>Seeds of Dissent: "If an army's Warlord is slain, each unit in the army with this special rule must make an immediate Morale Check as if they had suffered 25% losses from shooting" (pg 238).
You were saying?

>> No.29286432

>>29286383

>> No.29286448

>>29286366

There was some mention that they thought they had destroyed the Alpha Legion a couple of times, only to have them come back. I may be remembering, and it may not have been the Inquisition though. Though convincing the inquisition they'd done so would be a good trick, because who's going to tell an inquisitor "No, that glorious achievement was a ruse by Alpha Legion.".

>> No.29286453

>>29286414
>Spawn of AD_B crap

Try finding something like that on the NL before before the SAD-B got his grubby little hat on them.

>> No.29286478

(OP here)
I didn't expect this /tg/
Just wanted to know what people thoughtful about legions and their rules.

This is awesome.
Don't stop.

>> No.29286501

>>29284862
Nope. Sorry, son. Next book is part III of the Istvaan event: The Battle of Phall. We're gonna get Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists as well as Raven Guard and Alpha Legion. It's due near March.

Prospero/Calth/Whatever-Sanguinus-was-up-to is the next trilogy.

>> No.29286510

>mfw all of these examples would be awesome models

Seriously, Salamanders riding Carnosaurs?
Iron Hands riding a gigantic mecha hand?
Blood Ravens riding a giant WHFB bird?

Works just fine.

>> No.29286530

>>29286501
>Istvaan
>Imperial Fists

>> No.29286567

Emperors children pre-fall.

>> No.29286662

>>29286530
You are lucky I can't green text or I would leave a snide green remark on phall and the iron warriors imperial fist thingy there.
You sure are lucky.

>> No.29286675

>>29286530
Istvaan AND Battle of Phall.

>> No.29286688

>>29286510
Really, anon?

>> No.29286707

>>29286688

>> No.29286758

>>29285467
Repenting shouldn't involve suicide...

And Dark Angles were da best leejun. Half were obtuse, but they are still basically a legion despite the Codex Astartes.

>> No.29286785

>>29286758
>Repenting shouldn't involve suicide...

Disappointing the Ultramarines feels super bad.

>> No.29286863

>>29286241

I half expected Marines riding some obviously homosexual male.

>> No.29286872

>>29286758
I like how the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines can slightly change the tint of their armor and can be considered an entirely new chapter - no problems with the codex here - but if the Black Templars or Space Wolves have slightly too many guys they're considered suspicious

>have 20 different successors who are all basically the same with slightly different colors all living within the same neighborhood
Perfectly fine. Spiritual Liege and Inquisition approve.

>have multiple crusades and packs (or whatever they're called) spread throughout the galaxy getting shit done that happen to number more than 1000
Better watch that shit - you might get corrupted!

>> No.29286893

>>29286863
No, that's too metaphorical. We go by the example of the Space Wolves: everything has to be very very repetitive and literal, no matter how impractical.

>> No.29286918

>>29286872

BA have Sanguinary Guard, faster engines that even the AdMech don't have, jump marines as troops, DEATH COMPANY, librarian dreads, furioso dreads, deep striking Land Raiders, sanguinary priests out the ass who fky around the battlefield on jump packs instead of staying in special protected squads like normal apocs, have the blood drop insignia, etc.

Dark Angels have robes and hoods I guess. They also had plasma before everyone else stole it. They also have deathwing and ravenwing. Ultramarines have NO troop shenanigans whatsoever, except bikes.

>> No.29286944

>>29286872

There's also the thing where BT and SW straight up said fuck you and your codex in front of everyone.

>> No.29286963

>>29286872
>>have 20 different successors who are all basically the same with slightly different colors all living within the same neighborhood
>Perfectly fine. Spiritual Liege and Inquisition approve.

They have no official power over them though. Marneus Calgar cannot command the Heralds of Ultramar to do anything, while Helbrect can boss all his Black Templars around.

Also Dark Angels are held in suspicion for Legion building.

>> No.29286966

>>29286098
>Grey Knights
>not that popular anymore
Nigga what? At my LGS, almost every player has a few grey knights to use as an allied attachment from their "glory days".

Just because they aren't played as much anymore doesn't mean they aren't "popular".

>> No.29286974

>>29286918
Isn't that slightly paradoxical? The more you deviate from the codex the more legitimate having multiple chapters' worth of strength is?

>>29286944
This too: isn't it less suspicious and less heretical to straight out say you disagree instead of skirting the issue with loopholes and subterfuge?

>> No.29286995

>>29282835
Iron Hands...
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1sZ0ek7LLk
Flesh is weak.

>> No.29287001

>>29286963
You mean to tell me all the myriad Ultramarines successors are all completely independent and wouldn't back up their founding chapter in a pinch?

>> No.29287024

>>29286966
>almost every player has a few grey knights to use as an allied attachment

Isn't that mostly rules fuckery though?

>> No.29287042

>>29287001

To be fair, nearly every successor would back their founding Chapter in a pinch.

>> No.29287072

>>29287042
So why bother with the bureaucracy?

>> No.29287094

>>29287072
>>29287001
They might, they might not. But there is no command there, unlike with the Black Templars.
Ultramarines are everyone's friends, but nobody's bosses.

>> No.29287116

>>29286530
Istvaan Event as in "Shit that happened when Horus threw down the gauntlet and the Heresy started". Book one is Istvaan III, Book two was Istvaan V. Book three will be the Battle of Phall, which tells you what happened to the Imperial Fists who were on the way to Istvaan V with everyone else. Long story short, they got caught by that Warp storm that starts up with the "psychic backlash of global treason on Istvaan III" and Iron Warriors spend half their force playing team-kill on Istvaan V and the other half (Perty included) go fistfuck the Imperial Fist fleet that's been trapped near Phall.

>> No.29287128

>>29287094
The Red Cross?

>> No.29287133

>>29286974

Nigga nobody trusts DA.

>> No.29287153

>>29287133
Everybody trusted Horus.

>> No.29287194

>>29287153

Not the Emperor. That's what drove Horus to betray him.

>> No.29287200

>>29287024
You can only tell so many asshurt neckbeards and kids so many times before you just make a house rule "permitting" it to happen.

>> No.29287236

>>29287024
Not really, GKs cannot battle bro with anyone.

>> No.29287260

>>29287236
I just meant they were included more for stat purposes over anything else.

>> No.29287297

>>29287260
They're not that good though, it would be better to get some Taudar.

>> No.29287346

>>29285906
The confrontation between Fulgrim and Manus is my favorite moment so far in HH. The second Manus realizes what's at the core of Fulgrim's odd behavior he puts up a fucking mental wall and destroys the signifier of his brother's bond with him. Then he gets his ass beat twice but still. ;_;7

>> No.29287484

Emperor's Children

>> No.29287542

>>29286995
I always thought it was kind of weird that they bothered with all the gene manipulation faggotry if they're just going to replace half of their body with machines anyway.

They're still totally dope, though.

>> No.29287589

I fell in love with the World Eaters after reading Bowden-Dembski's stuff on them. Shit, it reads like something /tg/ would write, with the way Kharn's portrayed.

>> No.29287591

Ultramarines, and I refuse to give the shitty HH authors the satisfaction of breaking me. Hear that Fagnett, and BalDB?

>> No.29287604

>>29287236

They can battle bro with Inquisitors.

>> No.29287627

>>29287589
A rock who whinges occasionally?

>> No.29287660

>>29287604
They have Inquisitors in their own codex.

>> No.29287695

>>29287627
Well, what appealed to me more was just how caustic and irreverent they were; the way they'd behave so casually and with such great resignation to their fates. I find it fascinating how they actually HATE their primarch, but what else can they do but obey and follow his will? It's more interesting than just seeing them as mindless berserkers (though the nails do create that effect).

>> No.29287700

>>29287660

They can also ally Codex: Inquisition as battle brothers.

>tfw you're not my battle bro because you're from a different Ordo

>> No.29287702

>>29287542

I'm chalk it up to a basic adherence to the Codex rules, the basic definition of Space Marine, Mechanicus rules on machinery and heresy, and the fact that a machine-augmented human is probably easier to augment if he's got all the Space Marine bits like resistance to infection and super healing.

>> No.29287730

>>29287695
>but what else can they do but obey and follow his will?

Kill him.

>> No.29287770

>>29287730
Yeah, because that'll go over well with the Emperor, the other legions/primarchs, and the legion itself.

You don't just casually go and kill your father, man, especially if he's a superhuman demigod.

>> No.29287777

>>29284096
On a Scale of yes to no....
YES.

>> No.29287811

>>29286140
Hey, I play Crimson Fists and I'm all for Dorn being retarded. that might be because I like Iron Warriors better than CF ._.

>> No.29287840

>>29287770
>Yeah, because that'll go over well with the Emperor, the other legions/primarchs,

It will when he's gone into rebellion mode.

>and the legion itself.

It will because they intensely dislike him.

There's no reason not to have done so.

>> No.29287903

>>29287589
>the way Kharn's portrayed.

A perfectly two dimensional cardboard cut out that occasionally emits the sound "NAAAAAILS"?

>> No.29287910

>>29287840
It won't change the fact that they've gone and already put the butcher's nails into their heads. Killing Angron wouldn't make a difference in the long run, at least not for several more generations of marines, since the nails can't be removed. IMO, they're just too resigned to their fates to give a shit--and too corrupted later on.

Doesn't really matter, though. It's pretty easy to get into this "what if" game.

>> No.29287938

>>29287903
A very succinct description of an average Space Marine.

>> No.29287969

>>29287938

My space marines don't say nails though.

Also Orks do the exact same.

>> No.29288021

>>29287910
>It won't change the fact that they've gone and already put the butcher's nails into their heads.

It will change the fact that Angron is a thing though, they don't like that he is.

>Killing Angron wouldn't make a difference in the long run, at least not for several more generations of marines, since the nails can't be removed.

Try one generation, one generation of not accidentally preforming a complex and retarded brain surgery.

>IMO, they're just too resigned to their fates to give a shit

If that was the case they'd just lie down and die. But they don't, they're driven for no reason, they don't even like their Primarch.

>> No.29288127

>Kharn
>Galaxy in Flames
>Blood for the blood god, one cannot escape the eightfold path.

>Kharn
>Betrayer
>Durrr wat chaos

Nice continuity.

>> No.29288183

>>29288127
isn't

isn't galaxy in flames post-heresy though

>> No.29288253

>>29288183
It's Isstvan III, which takes place before everyone decided to go to Ultramar and skip Terra for no reason.

>> No.29288258

>>29288021

ADBs heresy books pretty much boil down to
>I NEVER WANTED TO BE YOUR PRIMARCH
>WELL WE NEVER WANTED TO BE YOUR LEGION
>BAWWWWWWW
>BAWWWWWWW

>> No.29288286

>>29284563
Takes a special kind of person to be a good space roman these days.

In Titus We Trust.

>> No.29288419

>>29287702
>>29287542
>>29286995
"They are not my hands. This fact is forgotten by my brothers - inexplicably, it has always seemed to me. The hands are strong, to be sure, and have created great things for us all, but they are not mine."

Poor Iron Hands. So lost without dad.

>> No.29288529

>>29288253
oh, I was thinking about the short story compendium

muh bad

>> No.29288627

>>29288127
Eydeebee commented on the Eightfold Path thing.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/249759-betrayer/page-7#entry3032298

>I don't want to go too deeply into this, but part of the problem is that we saw the World Eaters ostensibly fine in False Gods, and then ten minutes later in Galaxy in Flames, Kharn was shouting "I AM THE EIGHTFOLD PATH", and people who'd seen him a few weeks ago barely recognised him.

>For me, personally, that was one of the least-convincing moments in the Heresy. I thought it was very... gamey. Very, um, unsubtle and rapid "Chaos Corruption" in a tabletop sense. It came out of nowhere, with no foreshadowing, suddenly suggesting the World Eaters were one of the Legions deepest in thrall to Chaos already, practically before the first shot was fired, before any of the series' main characters - even the Sons of Horus - had any real idea what Chaos was. And, again, that stole any credence I had of the moment. I understand it's a popular scene in the Heresy because of the event itself, but you'll have a difficult time convincing me it rocked with how it was done.

I didn't think there was anything wrong with the Galaxy in Flames scene since Khârn could have just been in a trance or something, ranting without really knowing what he was saying. Maybe that's how it's justified later, I don't know (haven't read Betrayer yet).

>> No.29288739

>>29288258
Is this because there's no goblins thread up?

Jesus fuck you people and your whining...

>> No.29288808

>>29288627
>And, again, that stole any credence I had of the moment. I understand it's a popular scene in the Heresy because of the event itself, but you'll have a difficult time convincing me it rocked with how it was done.

Because moooooooooooore total ignorance of Chaos was some much better on the ten thousandth book of the series. What might have been more interesting is a discussion on Chaos, maybe he could have shared his view as a monogod worshiper with the Word Bearers? Oh, Kharn rapidly fell? No shit, the World Eaters spent the Great Crusade with one foot in the door already.

>> No.29288818

>>29286383

THE EMPRAH PROTRACTS!

>> No.29289016

>>29288818
FER DA EMPRWAAAAAAAAAGGHHHH!!!!!

>> No.29289028

>>29287811
>except Perturabo wasn't in there
>and the house was a bomb

>> No.29289128

>>29288627
>Rapid progression happens

No wonder the current crop of Horus Heresy writers hate it.

>> No.29289174

>>29286270

Epic

>> No.29289182

>>29286872
>but if the Black Templars or Space Wolves have slightly too many guys they're considered suspicious

I like that loophole thing they kinda dug up.

>cannot have more than 1000 marines per chapter
>however, chapters may ignore the 1000 limit if under crusade
>the great crusade never was officially ended
>every chapter now realizes this

>> No.29289207

>>29288286
hi space romans

those are some nice successor chapters
shame if something were to happen to one of em

>> No.29289253

>>29289207
Oh fug it's them.

Everyone act cool.

>> No.29289292

>>29289207
Watch it you glorified Inquisitor lapdog, I'll snap ya.

>> No.29289386

>>29288808
After hanging out with the Word Bearers, the World Eaters were very familiar with chaos. They just didn't give a damn. I was getting the same vibe from their point of view as the Night Lords (probably due to having the same author). Lots of people give ADB shit for his writing but I enjoy it. It doesn't matter what Abnett, ADB, Ward or Goto writes. Its all just fanfiction of a tabletop game.

I swear, Ive heard fewer complaints about Star Trek or Star Wars retcons. Just make your own canon!

>> No.29289440

>>29289292
>Inquisitor
ya blew it

>> No.29289588

I've always liked the Alpha Legion. Not necessarily because of the double-triple-quadruple agent stuff they have going on, but because of their asymmetrical approach to warfare. While each of the other Legions had their own different approach to war, most of their battles were decided on the field itself. The Alpha Legion on the other hand relies upon other means such as sabotage, infiltration, misdirection, double agents, false flag operations, and other methods to win their fights.

Recently though I've really become interested in the White Scars (despite the relative lack of info I've found on them). I just really like the idea of Space Mongols. If only their colors weren't so bland.

>> No.29289635

>>29289386
Heresy.

>> No.29289661

>>29289440

the dog gets angry if you call his master the wrong name?

>> No.29289805

>>29282835
Storm Wardens
I dont even play 40k any more and I still wish I had these dice

>> No.29290214

>>29289805
Not a legion I'm afraid.

>>29289588
I've always been interested in the more direct elements of the Alpha Legion. The ones who are there to act as the face of the legion, to stand on the battlefield against a foe. They know nothing of secret plans, infiltrators, sabotage, or assassination. All they know is the rest of their legion has their back, and when the order to charge against a force that appears five times their size comes, they know behind the lines, their foe is already in disarray and panicked, on the verge of falling. All it needs is one last push. Like a lone man pushing over a massive oak tree, knowing its insides have been completely hollowed out by termites.

>> No.29290334

>>29289635
Let me tell you a tale of high adventure!

>> No.29291268

>>29289440
>he doesn't know

>> No.29291328

Spess Yiffs.

>> No.29291516

>>29282835
Which Legion father was the manliest?

I reckon Pre-Heresy Fulgrim is a worthy candidate. Waithearmeout, he's one of the best fighters, smacked a lot of things, grew up on a shit world and made it rich in mining, mining is manly, fabulous, moved empy to tears with his speech, gets the Aquila symbol for his legion holy shit, and despite being a badass, he's all about culture. Wanted nothing more than to make a cultured badass human empire across the stars. Did I mention he had bitchin style? Surely to make your major color scheme purple/white/gold look hard as fuck is manly.

Ferrus Manus has man in his name, and he's a blacksmith that punches weapons into shape. So, he'd be up there.

Dorn was thick. Thick in the head isn't manly. Thick in body is.

>> No.29291634

>>29282835
Salamanders where it's at, nig.

But seriously, they're all about being bros, try to do people right, and they love to tinker with shit. They're easily my favorite legion.

>> No.29291856

Sons of Horus. No bullshit, just a bunch of evil gangster pricks from Buttfuck Nowhere and their Pimp Master General Horus. Raven Guard at close second because muh Edgar Allen Poe and covert ops.

>> No.29291912

Assuming the Great Crusade came to a close with no heresy, what would each primarch end up doing for the Imperium? Fulgrim would obviously end up in charge of culture and Gulliman the beuracracy, but what of Sanguinius or Angron?

>> No.29292103

>>29291856
>try to help in the defense of Terra with fucked up legion
>rapid cloning and growing of marines leads to horrendous mutations
>many mutant marines remain after the final battle
>their screams haunt him
>can't take it anymore, kills them himself out of sorrow and pity
>guilt becomes too much, locks himself away in his tower of the Ravenspire
>after a year solid, his craft is noticed leaving the planet
>headed towards the Eye of Terror

Never more.

>> No.29292145

>>29291912
Guilliman would be running Ultramar. Dorn, Perturabo, Ferrus and Vulkan would all be building new and awesome stuff. Curze, Corax, and Alpharius would be quietly sweeping local rebellions under the rug. Angron and Mortarion and Russ would be doing the same thing except when it's no longer time to do things quietly. Magnus would be studying the advancement of psykers and promoting the arts along with Fulgrim and Sanguinius. Horus would mostly just sit back and have a beer. The Lion would be sneaking around looking for those idiots who ACCIDENTALLY blew up his homeworld. The Khan would breed the biggest, most awesome horse ever so that Russ stops bragging about how his Legion has the best mascot. Lorgar goes from planet to planet selling books and giving speeches about how awesome the Imperium is.

>> No.29292275

Rolled 26, 20, 48 = 94

>>29292145
>Curze
>Silently

>> No.29292621

>>29291516
Fulgrim had a few too many bromances (literally) for my taste but I respect your opinion. He is one of the few primarchs to single handedly take out a titan (gave it bad cancer). He crafted one of the cooler hammers in the setting.

>>29292103
Now this man gets it. Everyone has the option to ignore the new series.

>> No.29292653

>>29292145
>Curze, Corax, and Alpharius would be quietly sweeping local rebellions under the rug
>Curze quietly sweeping rebellions

The Night Lords are more or less the children of the Raven Guard and the World Eaters hatefucking each other.

They absolutely fuck planets up, they fuck them up so badly and in such fucking terrifying ways that several planets sharing the sub sector quickly fall in line. They fight viciously and loudly, but that doesn't mean they go full on World Eater mode and punch tanks to death. They still understand when to attack and when you really shouldn't.

tl;dr The Eight Legion was built to be terrorists IN SPACE. Got a stubborn sector that just wont fall in line? Send the Eighth.

This is why they're my favorite legion and why I'm pissed about their current happenings. Fear through focus, you fucking maniacs. Kurze taught you that. Don't go full pseudo chaos but not chaos. At least they told Abaddon to go fuck himself about the next Black Crusade.

>> No.29292659

>>29284883
Past tense.

They selflessly sacrificed their entire Chapter against Hive Fleet Kraken. Tyranids ate them all.

>> No.29292691

>>29292659
[citation needed]

>> No.29292693

>>29288419
Hey, they had Uncle Mechanicum to look out for them!

>> No.29292736

>>29282835
>Favorite Legion
Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors
I cannot decide.
Two Sides, One Coin
All the Fluff from the Codices, Horus Heresy and Space Marine Battles books I have read, never once have a disliked any IF or IW encounter.

>> No.29292752

Alpha Legion, because they are cunning and enigmatic and start with 'A'.

>> No.29292791

>>29292691
Seriously? This is common knowledge dude. Tyranids completely wiped two named Chapters - Lamenters, and Scythes of the Emperor.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lamenters#fn_5b

>> No.29292844

>>29292791
Sorry, Hive Fleet Kraken completely wiped those. Who knows how many Leviathan has slaughtered.

>> No.29292861

>>29291912
I've actually wondered what the successor chapters of the traitor legions would have been if they hadn't. you know, gone traitor.

And to answer OP, Iron Warriors, all the way.

>> No.29292888

>>29292844
Not really.

The Marine codex has two fleets ''virtually'' destroyed by the Tyranids, then a few years later one of the Chapters resurfaces and kicks butt.

>> No.29292906

>>29292888
The Marine Codex written by Cruddace? LOL.

His fluff doesn't count for shit and we all know it.

>> No.29292927

>>29292888
Two chapters*

>>29292906
Bad, anon, bad.

Crud is not Ward

>> No.29292930

>>29291516
Conrad Kurze was a cool guy.
>Ho hum I rule this dark planet of mine with justice and fairness for all~
>Excuse me, m-my lord...
>What is it my honorable and loyal servant~
>... It... It seems someone has, uh... committed a crime in sector 35B2
>...
>M-my lord?

>> No.29293106

>ctrl+f
>Only one person says Raven Guard
>The rest only mention them as "close seconds"

Shrikeisnotmadjuststealthy.jpg

>> No.29293203

>>29292791
>>29292844

Codex: Tyranids 5E
>Seen on a galactic scale, Hive Fleet Kraken was attacking across a front that covered many thousands of light years. Worlds were often bypassed, isolated or attacked unexpectedly, making a cohesive defence almost impossible to mount. The Imperium was forced to concentrate its forces on the most strategically important forge worlds and hive worlds, whilst it evacuated or simply abandoned others to their fate. There were some glimmers of light in the darkness however. Several Space Marine Chapters dedicated their forces to saving those worlds the wider Imperial armies had abandoned. Some, such as the Lamenters and the Scythes of the Emperor paid for their boldness with heavy losses, their once proud Chapters reduced to a few scattered remnants, whilst the Knights of Eternity are presumed to have been completely obliterated. Others carried the battle to the Tyranids in the manner that only Space Marines could, striking at isolated tendrils of the Kraken, boarding Hive Ships and blowing them apart from the inside. Yet no matter the effort the Imperium made, the Tyranids were too many, and they drove ever onwards into the galaxy.

Codex: Blood Angels 5E
>The Lamenters [Twenty-first Founding]
>The Lamenters have had a somewhat tumultuous history. The Chapter barely survived the repercussions of aligning themselves with Huron Blackheart’s Astral Claws during the Badab War, and less than a century later was almost obliterated by Hive Fleet Kraken. Since then, the Lamenters have reportedly claimed the ability to cure their flawed gene-seed, though if anything the Chapter has undergone marked degeneration since their discovery, raising severe doubts as to the effectiveness of the ‘cure’.

They took heavy losses, but Kraken didn't wipe them out.

>> No.29293242

>>29291516
>>29292621

>He is one of the few primarchs to single handedly take out a titan (gave it bad cancer)

I dont even want to know how Fulgrim contracted Titan AIDS to begin with

>> No.29294024

>>29291516
Fulgrim didn't seem like he was that great at fighting. Most fights had him barely coping until he taps into his blade's power.

>> No.29294445

No question about it.

Iron Hands.

Salamanders get a special commendation too though.

>> No.29296396

Storm Wardens. I'm betting on them being one of the lost legions.

>> No.29296459

>>29284180
They significantly outnumber the lowest pre-Heresy number of Thousand Sons, they're around the level the Raven Guard were at post-Heresy, etc.

Still though, that guy was wrong as shit about them being a legion.

>> No.29296469

>>29283378
>>29283982
>>29286030
Dude are you acoustic

>> No.29296537

>>29285287
Ah, I remember when Baneblades could fly too.

Glory days.

>> No.29296652

>>29282835
A single loss and morale across the whole of the Imperium plummets. It's not easy being the best.

>> No.29296798

Where's a good place to read up on Minotaurs fluff? Been really interested in them because of the Greek theme.

>> No.29296859

I enjoy the Thousand Sons. Pre heresy of course.

Fanboyism gooooo

>> No.29296878

>>29296798
Babab War and Fall of Orpheus.
I personally think they're meh on the whole, but the one bit I do love is that they're led by the Dread Chapter Master Roberts

>> No.29296895

>>29296798

Iron Snakes are another Greek-themed chapter, they're pretty much Space Hoplites. They're Dan Abnett's pet chapter so you'll see them popping up every no and again the the Gaunt's Ghosts books and they have a short story anthology and a few comic books of their own.

>> No.29296918

Rolled 13, 93 = 106

>>29296652
>filename
>not "Crack it Calgar"

>> No.29296934

Whatever ones are dead.

Filthy fucking loyalists.

>Captcha: wretched narcissist

>> No.29297194

>>29296459
The Thousand Sons numbered around ten thousand guys, although I've heard that number is gonna get retconned in the near future. The Black Templars don't even number that high.

>> No.29297615

>>29297194
Indeed. Thousand Sons was one of the books printed before the legion size was changed. The name Thousand Sons refers to the number of marines left when they discovered Magnus. More than likely they'll be written up in the FW Prospero book as being an average sized legion.

>> No.29297789

>>29297615
I'm guessing they'll still number pretty low compared to the others. Maybe 60-70k.

>> No.29297830

Rolled 67, 53 = 120

>>29296934
Go to bed Abbadon.

>> No.29297837

>>29288627
>It came out of nowhere, with no foreshadowing, suddenly suggesting the World Eaters were one of the Legions deepest in thrall to Chaos already, practically before the first shot was fired, before any of the series' main characters - even the Sons of Horus - had any real idea what Chaos was.

Aren't the Emperor's Children full-blown Slaaneshi worshippers by this point?

>> No.29298222

>>29291328
You spelt wolves wrong you furry faggot

>> No.29298334

>>29296652
Go lie about some more victories Calgar

>> No.29298709

>>29297837
I don't know if they were actively worshiping Slaanesh at that point, but from an outside perspective it certainly would've appeared that way.

>> No.29298790

>>29282835
Blood Angels because I have a man-boner for Sanguinius. Who doesn't?

Imperial Fists are a close second, then White Scars, Salamanders, and Iron Hands. The first two I like because of their fighting styles, the later two I like because I'm too much of a tinkerer myself.

>> No.29298962

>>29298790
>tfw GW just shit on all other legions bar Ultramarines

I wish they'd just do a little something extra for the other legions.

>> No.29299107

>>29298962
BUT MUH SHEKELS

Sorry, I'll go back to /pol/ now. I'm not wrong though.

>> No.29299245

>>29299107
>Implying after 5th Ed Space Marine codex people haven't had enough of the fucking smurfs

>> No.29299309

>>29299245
They changed the model Eldar craftworld from Alaitoc to Saim-hann for seemingly no reason, so I don't see why not.

Is it really as simple as "Let's make all Space Marines blue and all Eldar red so moms don't get confused"?

>> No.29299311

>>29299245
Oh, most people with brains in their heads have, but the Smurfs keep fucking selling.

>> No.29299322

>>29296469
Different people, all with a point to be made...

>> No.29299458

>>29299309
Probably.
Imagine the kiddies face when he unwraps a box of Eldar Guardians when what he really wanted was a smurf squad.

>> No.29299550

>>29299458
As an extra layer of "fuck you" didn't they not even come out with a new jetbike model for 6E Eldar?

>> No.29299664

>>29299550
Yeah, that was kinda funny. Eldarfags insisted that there would be new jetbike models in a second wave that was gonna hit just weeks after the main release.

>> No.29302872

>>29286872
You best be joking nigga.
Guardians of the Covenant, best chapter.

>> No.29303085

>>29302872
>Wearing robes
>Over power armour

Nigga please. Astral Claws best silver chapter.

>> No.29303207

>>29282835
Iron Hands.
Because how can I not love a legion of mostly robotic post-human badasses motivated by both their hatred of the weakness of flesh (and the xenos/heretics made of aforementioned flesh), and wanting to prove to Daddy that they're worthy of him and he'll come back...
Please?

>> No.29303491

>>29303207
Has an Iron Hand ever gone too far and gone full-robo?

>> No.29303587

>>29303491
Allegedly.
Pic related.

>> No.29303614

>>29303491
I'm pretty sure they keep most of their internal organs.

All of his limbs there have certainly been replaced and he's a techpriest so you'd expect him to have more shit swapped about.

>> No.29303667

>>29303614
I thought techpriests basically only keep their brain intact. Everything else wears out eventually and they get new hearts/whatever all the time.

>> No.29303673

>>29303587
>>29303614
Well let me correct myself then.

Clearly the Iron Hands have been doing a bit of experimenting along with the Adeptus Mechanicus.

>> No.29303729

>>29303587
>>29303673

Could also be just leftover Gorgon pattern Terminators.

>> No.29304007

>>29303729
>Gorgon Pattern: A variant of the Indomitus Pattern devised by the Primarch Ferrus Manus and the Iron Fathers, this advanced prototype suit was just going into production at the onset of the Horus Heresy. The design replaced field generators embedded in the armour with experimental systems that converted incoming electromagnetic and kinetic energy into bursts of blinding light, able to incapacitate nearby foes. The heat and electrochemical toxins bleeding from the suit limited the armour's agility, and its effects required a high level of cybernetic modifications for its wearer to endure.
So basically if it got hit/shot by anything it would blindingly light up?

>> No.29304010

>>29284921
fuck Dorn

traitor - Thousands Sons then Death Guard the former for obvious reasons and the latter for Nurgle Pus Hugs

loyalist - Ultramarines and Salamanders because they're not super evil...followed by Dark Angels because Dark Angels

>> No.29304142

>>29285200
>>29284921
How'd that cage match go

>> No.29304301

>>29304142
We welcome pain. Had to purge the weakness from the chapter.

>> No.29304318

>>29286688
glorious

>> No.29304596

>>29299309
Eldar model were Biel Tan, then Ulthwe, so nothing new there

Still better than seeing UM all the time

>> No.29304608

>>29304007

Yeah. The important thing though is that it's surgically bonded to the wearer, which could be the whole "Dudes bonded to machines" deal.

>>29304301

How's that Tank Designed By Perturabo handling?

>> No.29304654

>>29304301
So all but like 400 marines were weak...I wouldn;t brag about that if it were me...just saying

>> No.29304730

>>29292653
>>29292653
Actually, sometimes they do punch things to death. But with the proper equipment. Or just some spare mortals to protect those precious Astartes mortals.

>> No.29304775

>>29303667
Depends on the techpriest, but yes, they can.


They do not, however all go so far or approve of it.

Read priests of mars, it's a good look into the personal dealings/views of mechanics personnel.

>> No.29304823

I...is that a proportionally designed Marine, OP?

>> No.29304851

>>29304608
Pretty well if you can get past all the gay porn he installed in it.

>> No.29304862

>>29304608

>Bought a Typhon
>Painted it up for my Iron Hands
>Intrigued by the dark secret behind it

>Oh lol Perturabo built it

Still mad

>> No.29304887

>>29304775
But that's exactly where I got that notion from, anon.

>> No.29304944

>>29292653
>Got a stubborn sector that just wont fall in line? Send the Eighth.
Or the World Eaters. Or the Word Bearers. Or the Alpha Legion. Or the Raven Guard. If it's just about slapping bitches down, pretty much anyone would do. The ones I mentioned are just the ones who are also really good at suppressing and subverting revolt.

>> No.29305002

>>29304823
FW did it

>> No.29305013

>>29304944
>Sir, the peasants are revolting!

>> No.29305027

>>29292653
>Fear through focus, you fucking maniacs. Kurze taught you that.
That's the entire point. They fall apart without him. He was the focus.

>> No.29305046

>>29305013

>Yes, they are, aren't they? I'm amazed you could still identify that bloody mess as a peasant after Kurze was done with it.

>> No.29305099

>>29304887
Re-read the musing about the techpriests who is just a brain. You'll notice the other characters do consider it extreme.

>> No.29305113

Loyalist is Crimson Fists

Traitor is World Eaters

>> No.29305135

>>29305013
>>29305046
Why split this into two posts?

>> No.29305161

>>29305099
But then the gestalt intelligence says that many techpriests become so close to what they claim they detest as to not make sense.

>> No.29305197

>>29305135
I dunno

>> No.29305209

>>29305099
>brain

THE FLESH IS WEAK

>Transcendence, coming to a theater near you April 18, 2014

>> No.29305226

>>29305113
Legion, not chapter.

>> No.29305710

>>29287811
This is not for you, anon, It is for based anon who wrote this.

>> No.29306632

>>29292653
>At least they told Abaddon to go fuck himself about the next Black Crusade.
Not really. He still got Night Lords with him at the time of the 13th.

>> No.29306811

We all know Space Wolves are the best.

Only Primarch to never have been suspected of any treachery by the loyalists because it was inconceivable that the Wolves could ever fall to chaos.

Only Legion to say "fuck you" properly to the Inquisition and rape Grey Knights in the process in open combat.

Only Legion to be able to get this done when it comes to the Black Crusades.

Only Legion with proper combo Terminators.

Only Legion with Lukas, who can suicide bomb a FUCKING EMPEROR CLASS TITAN EARNING HIMSELF 100 TIMES HIS POINTS.

You can't ever go wrong with space wolves.

>> No.29306866

>>29306811
>Only Legion with proper combo Terminators.

You know who else has those? Chaos.

>> No.29306951

>>29292653
As a 8-year night lords player, "fear through focus" was only ever touted by two characters: a schizophrenic madman primarch and zso sahaal, the absolute definition of an unreliable narrator.

>> No.29306955

>>29306866

Fluff making it clear that all Chaos legions are basically made a fool of post-Heresy constantly turns many off to Chaos.

Lets face it, Chaos Space Marines are washed up losers who are just sad these days.

>> No.29307001

>>29306811
Gav please go.

>> No.29307236

>>29296895
Woah these guys seem fun. Would people get pissed making a fandex using these guys? I would imagine a tac squad all with combat shields (6++) and FNP (5+) wouldn't sit well with some people. But still, I would totally make this army if it was balanced enough.

>> No.29307384

>>29307236
What reason for the FNP? Iron Snakes aren't more augmented than average, and nothing I've read points to Iron Hand parentage.

>> No.29307418

>>29307384
Each squad has an apothecary.

>> No.29307941

>>29307384
>>29307418
So I've been reading C:BA and C:SW and think Space Wolves would be the best proxy codex for these guys. The bonuses from standards and the flamers + meltas sit closer to the snakes than BA troops. Plus the lexicanum says they employ dogs to hunt things like deldar which would make the list even more fluffier! The only downside is BA have a lot better access to drop pods and apothecaries. Drop pod/fast attack rhinos don't seem very fluffy but in this meta you need some way to get close. What do you guys think?

>> No.29308084

>>29307418
I thought Red Scorpions were the ones with apothecaries in every squad

>> No.29308115

>>29307236

If you want FnP combat shields for troops play siege vanguard army list using iron hand tactics.

If I were to play iron snakes i'd use minotaurs or ultramarines tactics though. Officially they use ultramarine rules because they are ultra successors.

>> No.29308429

>>29308115
Is this stuff Forgeworld? I'm not seeing anything in the GW dept.

>> No.29308763

>>29308429
siege assault vanguard is an army list in on of the badab war forgeworld books (imperial armour 8 or 9)

>> No.29308847

>>29308763
Ah I see it. They're way to expensive. 200 pts. for a vanilla assault troop with 6++ and fnp? And even then the fnp rule is iffy because they're ultramarine successors.

But beside the point; no FW allowed where I'm at.

>> No.29309074

dark angels, because they have the best lore and history imho.
plus considering their secrecy and their unforgivn bonds they basically still retain the force of a whole legion in 41k

>>
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