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[ERROR] No.29146250 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

What kind of relationships could summoners and their eidolons have? In a campaign I'm going to be playing in, I've opted for a more master/servant relationship, even going so far as to give it skill ranks in Profession (Maid).

>> No.29147368

>>29146250
As their own sentience, they can have personalities and interact with their summoner, however try not to go full magical realm.

>> No.29148037

Honestly, I think the summoner class has some of the best potential for interesting ways to fluff the character. Paizo actually did a pretty good job with the APG.

One person was talking about their Synthesist Summoner the other day and said they played it as an Old Woman and her dead Husbands spirit on a quest for vengeance and tradition. There was some cool setting lore that went with it as well, but I can't remember it now.

>> No.29148056

>not Profession (Housewife)
> As a male

Gee wizz your Eidolon kind of sucks.

>> No.29148196

Last day there was a very itneresting thread, were an anon made a summoner whose eidolon was basically the spirit of her father. Every creature she summoned, every one, was a specific person she knew and whom died.
The character was basically a keeper of the ghosts of her village.
Very cool and touching

>> No.29148214

>>29148037

Ah someone else got it before me

>> No.29148730

>>29146250
Sibling-style relationships are my favorites. Melee-heavy summoner with a 'little sister' that's secretly stronger than he is. Wimpy caster summoner with a knight-in-shining-armor 'brother' that he idolizes. Narcissistic incestuous 'twin sisters' that share a room at the inn and keep everyone else awake.

>> No.29148828

>>29148730
>Narcissistic incestuous 'twin sisters' that share a room at the inn and keep everyone else awake.
Anon pls

>> No.29148855

>> No.29148877

>> No.29148926

In our kingmaker campaign our summoner's eidolon became king. In fact, the eidolon became a core member of the team.
When we needed the summoner's help, we called his eidolon's name instead.
After a while we forgot the summoner's name entirely and he had keep reminding us who he was and why he was standing next to our king.

>> No.29148938

This counts.

>> No.29148942

Your eidolon is a spirit or combined spirit of dead people you know (this is closer to the original term).

Your eidolon is a demon or other extraplanar creature you sold your soul too. It wants to make sure it gets a return on its investment.

Your eidolon is your half-brother or sister because your dad/mom is some freakish extraplanar entity.

Your eidolon is a suit of sentient transdimensional armor that you found.

Your eidolon is you, from the future, after all the fucked-up stuff happens.

Your eidolon is a segment of your personality that was removed in some traumatic event (think Anansi Boys).

Your eidolon is your childhood pet that you found in the woods. You didn't realise it was weird until you got older.

Your eidolon is the sworn guardian of your bloodline, created by an ancient ancestor. You're the last living descendant.

Your eidolon is the psychic manifestation of your thoughts after you take that one special magic drug.

Your young brother's body was removed in an alchemical accident when you tried to resurrect your dead mom. You managed to store his soul in an eidolon.

You used to be an artist, and your eidolon is what stepped out of that final work you spent ten years of your blood, sweat and tears created. Everyone thought you were mad (they still do).

Your eidolon is an unlucky planar debtor whose existence was divided up to pay its debts. A fortuitous investment got you a time-share in this thing's soul but you do have to share.

Your eidolon is an evil crossplanar entity which was summoned and intended to be bound into the shell of a mortal, Antichrist-like host. You were delivering a parcel during the ritual and somehow got caught in the crosshairs. The eidolon is either mad about this or finds the whole thing hilarious but the sinister cult is definitely very annoyed (as as the intended host).

Your eidolon is a transdimensional astronaut on a mission of discovery who can't survive on this plane without feeding off a native host.

>> No.29148955

>> No.29148959

>>29148938
>>29148877
>>29148855
Anon, seriously, there's an ERP thread right there.

>> No.29148968

How "That Guy" is it to try and convince your DM to let you have a humanoid familiar?

>> No.29148969

>>29146250
My summoner's eidolon was his waifu they were so happy together.

They laughed, and danced, and even held tentacles together.

>> No.29149032

>>29148968
I once played a female human witch who had stopped aging, she was frail but had a fuckall huge library in her best friend's mansion. As a familiar I convinced the DM to let me take a tiny one hit die succubus.

About 15 sessions in, one of the other players looked at me as we were fighting a crazy female wizard and said..."You son of a bitch."

>> No.29149040

>>29148855
>>29148877
>>29148938
>>29148955
I didn't realize how much of my maid folder was out-and-out pornographic. At least not something I could post on /tg/.

>> No.29149052

>>29148056
>trap housewife eidolon
She can be a maid too.

>> No.29149086

>>29149032
Am I missing some reference here?

>> No.29149098

>>29149032
Tell us more.

>> No.29149112

>>29149032
And I quite agree with him, you son of a bitch.

Also, Patchy is not frail or weak. She just has asthma. She does acrobatic stuff all the time.

>> No.29149115

>>29149086
Patchouli Knowledge from 2hu

>> No.29149125

>>29149086

>> No.29149145

Hammy bastard/Sarcastic put upon minion.

>> No.29149180

Your eidolon is your husband/wife, your family has a sworn pact with mystic entities to marry its eldest heir to them ("The Kings of the Sea" by Sterling E. Lanier has this plot point).

Your eidolon is an alien parasite from a race infecting the brains of humans en masse. This one missed its target and got implanted in your hand instead.

Your eidolon is a kind of weapon designed by a magical armaments laboratory. You're an escaped test subject, their most successful, and they want you back.

Your eidolon is a dissipated spirit entity that possessed you when you found its tomb as a child.

Your eidolon is what happened after you really fucked up your conjuration exam in the first year of wizard college.

Your eidolon is a family household object that you've owned for a hundred years and which has become sentient and magical.

Your eidolon is the soul of an awakened golem you were able to remove from its rusted-over, immobile body. It was standing over a grave when you found it.

Your eidolon is a world-devouring shadow creature bound in the form of a really nice hat. You knew that hat salesman was shady as fuck.

Your eidolon is the raw magical power of JUSTICE that you summon upon yourself to fight evil. It may/may not come with a motorcycle and insect theme.

You're pretty sure you died back then but you woke up still in the forest with this eidolon hanging around. You don't want to think too much about that weird scar over your heart.

You journeyed to the underworld to rescue the lost soul of your love. You fucked up and came back with the wrong person, it's your eidolon.

Your eidolon was formerly an abused elemental spirit used by a blacksmith to forge his weapons. You broke it out out of love/pity and now you're both on the run.

Some weird-looking magic elf appointed you a duke of the fairy realms after you repaired his horse's shoe. The eidolon is your chief retainer.

>> No.29149182

>>29149040
Can you upload a zip somewhere? At least keep sharing the blue board-allowed parts.

OP's pic does a good job of evoking "supernatural maid". I wonder which other pics would work for an eidolon maid who's obviously not just a regular human/elf.

>> No.29149223

>>29149182
That's pretty much it. Everything else is fairly pornographic in nature.

It also has some weird fetishes not related to maids, ala traps.

>> No.29149241

>>29149223
Upload folder please!

Traps are not only entirely related but also top tier maids. And SFW, if they only show bulges.

>> No.29149256

>>29149086
2hu

>> No.29149260

>>29149223
Do you have any brown elf trap maids?

>> No.29149295

>>29149180
>Your eidolon is a world-devouring shadow creature bound in the form of a really nice hat. You knew that hat salesman was shady as fuck.

>> No.29149342

>> No.29149360

HaHA I forgot that I keep some maids in a folder where the shouldn't be! Probably because I never really go in there.

Commencing more pictoors.

>>29149223
If you can keep the thread alive for a few hours, I can, but I'm leaving for a bit real soon.

>> No.29149379

>> No.29149392

>> No.29149445

Your Eidolon is the summoned spirit of a mighty Conqueror King. Unfortunately he has a habit of not obeying you despite being bound to your will. While his primary goal is to use the McGuffin your party is after to conquer the world (again), his secondary one is to teach your Summoner how to be a proper man instead of a limp-wristed nancy-boy.

>> No.29149515

>>29149379
You're wearing clothes again.

>> No.29149569

>>29149445
Your eidolon is the elderly kung-fu trainer and macho paradigm who you formerly studied under. Your incompetence caused the heart attack which finally killed him. He has sworn not to leave this realm until you have completed your training.

>> No.29149585

>>29149379
Why do I want to cuddle her so badly?

>> No.29149596

I've been tinkering with a setting where the tone of magic is supposed to be more esoteric and occult. Part of that is restricting and refluffing the classes available, and one of those is the summoner. In this setting, a summoner's eidolon is always some flavor of evil-aligned fiend that the summoner "binds" to his service (but in reality is just allowing itself to be "bound" so it can corrupt the summoner). The eidolon will be willful and often try to push the summoner toward evil.

Summoners also don't get normal spellcasting, just a handful of appropriate rituals -- some stuff for healing/tweaking the eidolon, the Planar Binding line, and a few select buffs fluffed as binding a spirit into something to enhance its capabilities. And their summon monster SLAs (which they'll probably get more of, and be allowed to use even with the eidolon out to compensate somewhat for the loss of true spellcasting) would be limited to evil outsiders and fiendish creatures.

So basically, summoners overall are handled more like classical demonology than typical D&D magic.

The First Worlder archetype would also be allowed, in which case the eidolon isn't a fiend, but rather a Fair Folk style fey. Not strictly evil, but no less of a potential headache, and certainly no more welcome in polite society.

>> No.29149639

>>29149596
That sounds fine but honestly I'm iffy about making it only demons. If you want a darker and more sacrificial tone you can absolutely do that with other creatures as well. Just look at the old testament.

>> No.29149646

>>29149585

If by cuddle you mean have her slip you a roofie when you're not looking and then get molested for hours on end, then I don't blame you.

>> No.29149653

>>29148942
Combine
>Your eidolon is your childhood pet that you found in the woods. You didn't realise it was weird until you got older.
and
>Your eidolon is the psychic manifestation of your thoughts after you take that one special magic drug.

Your eidolon is your imaginary friend from childhood given actual form by the awakening of some latent psionic capability.

>> No.29149708

>>29149653
That's pretty cool and potentially pretty creepy too.

>> No.29149721

>>29149646
Nah, just want to snuggle her and stare into her crazy eyes and maybe hold her hand and give her kisses on the tip of her nose.

I must be getting soft in my old age.

>> No.29149725

>Your eidolon is actually the entire 5th SS Panzer Division "Wiking"

>> No.29149729

>>29149646
>wasting 5gp on a roofie
>not just allowing yourself to be molested for hours
shiggy diggy bo biggie shabba dabba doo

>> No.29149743

>be thrallherd
>have harem of submissive thralls and followers who just want to wife and maid for me but don't know why
>comfort them and tell them to just relax and do what feels right

>> No.29149751

I'm a big fan of the dichotomy between a timid, weak and pacifistic summoner and a crazy bloodthirsty eidolon.

I know it's cliched as fuck, but I can't help but love it.

>> No.29149779

>>29149725
We would have fun games together, anon.

>> No.29149838

>>29149725
>they still think to be in the war
>everytime they see a new monster they make a comment on how weird the enemy weapons and forces have become
>they refer to the summoner as their superior officer

>> No.29149856

Ozoi is not a safe eidolon to have.

>> No.29149867

>>29149721

Who said you had a choice in the matter?

>> No.29149905

>>29149725

Welp, I know what my next summoner is gonna be.

>> No.29149926

>>29149743

>> No.29149960

>>29149779
Why, thank you.

>>29149838
Would make sense. And they'd bring all manner of new and interesting toys.
"A dragon? Give him a taste of 'Wirbelwind!"

>>29149905
Felix Steiner as a Summoner?

>> No.29149984

>>29149639
Well, like I said, it's meant for a very particular setting that's not exactly your typical generic D&D setting. Most of the spellcasting classes are limited to a particular sort of flavor, because the forces that drive magic are more limited than your typical D&D world. There are no sorcerers or wizards, divine magic all stems from a single, distant, deistic, supposedly (but not really verifiably, due to the distance issue) good god, stuff like that.

And the First Worlder archetype is basically meant for that "not really evil but still kind of risky and not generally accepted" spin anyway. It's also worth noting that a big issue in the setting is debate and uncertainty over metaphysical issues; things like good and evil and how magic works and so forth aren't as clear-cut, so while canonically summoners may be trafficking with demons (and this is the official dogma of the dominant church), individuals may think otherwise -- and if they're in fact dealing with fey (first worlder archetype), they'd actually be right (though that opens up its own set of risks and problems).

>> No.29149990

>>29149960

>Nazis vs Dragons

Why is this not a thing yet?

>> No.29150000

>>29149960
The summoner dresses as a Commissar because reasons

>> No.29150005

I like styling Eidolons as manifestations of the summoner. The summoner reaches out into the planes and grabs a bit of proto-outsider, the raw soulstuff and firmament that makes up all beings outside the material plane. Then they pull it back and filter it through their own soul to create the Eidolon. This leads to both the bond between the two, and the Eidolon being what the summoner really wants or needs, an expression of themselves.

That and I'll take a single level of summoner just to have a pet maid Eidolon with all her evolution points in skills and such.

>> No.29150014

>>29149926
Oh yeah. But I want comforting as well as praise. I want her to quietly sob at the mental conflict and her inability to do anything about it, and him to shush her and calm her, and her to want to throw him off but be unable to, and instead nod and accept his reassurance even though she knows she'll never be able to change her mind.

>> No.29150017

>>29150000
Now you are bound by the power of quads to make this happen.

>> No.29150018

>>29149725
>Your eidolon is the war host of the valkyries
>The summoner summons by playing Wagner

>> No.29150023

>>29149960

>Undead German Officer whose Eidolon is a bunch of Nazi ghosts shackled to a fucking extraplanar tank.

Yes.

Now is it even possible to make an Eidolon that has at-will explosive ranged attacks and maybe a trample-on-charges?

>> No.29150039

>>29148828

>STOP JUMPING ON THE BED YOU LITTLE BRATS!

>> No.29150041

>>29148969
Would be better if they become one. If you know what I mean.

>> No.29150043

>>29149990
I concur!

>> No.29150047

>>29148196
Reminds me of a technomancer in a Shadowrun game I was in.

Each of his sprites was named and modeled after one of the archangels while his own persona was called Metatron.

>> No.29150072

>>29150023
Now that is one fine idea you've got there.

At worst have a wizard or sorcerer ride the eidolon and toss fireballs/meteor swarm all around.

>> No.29150081

>>29150023
Trample charge is easy.
The explosive ranged attacks... Well you could take something like your slam attack, slap the elemental evolution on it, then take reach for it with the lunge feat. Get a 15-25 foot range fiery exploding slap.

>> No.29150093

>>29150047
So who played BMX Bandit?

>> No.29150096

>>29150023
Well, if you go into the SLA evolutions, you could get Ultimate Magic, but that would need a lot of points.

>> No.29150098

>>29148942
>Your eidolon is the psychic manifestation of your thoughts after you take that one special magic drug.


I want to play a JoJo's character as a summoner now and see how long it takes for anyone to realize.

>> No.29150117

>>29149180
>You're pretty sure you died back then but you woke up still in the forest with this eidolon hanging around. You don't want to think too much about that weird scar over your heart.
This one sounds so fucking familiar. Is it based directly on something or am I mixing up Dragonheart and Geist?

Which is incidentally another good example; Your eidolon is an ancient ghost more concept than sentient being, anchored to your soul at the moment of death and the only thing keeping you alive. You try to use its powers for good, but it whispers in your ear at night, begging you to do terrible things.

>> No.29150119

>>29148959
>>29150005
You remind me of a game where the Eidolon was built as pretty white haired girl thing and pimped out on a nightly basis to help her summoner get a room. Then she would share it with him because his greatest fear was being alone again.

>> No.29150127

>>29150119
Fuck your game and fuck that player.

>> No.29150150

>>29150081

Now that is an excellent idea. Give it the mount evolution and you can ride around on your fucking tank too.

Also go for the Vital Strike line of feats to pump up the damage on that cannon.

>> No.29150194

One of my players has a PC for a Faerun campaign we started in which he was raised alongside his eidolon, kind of like a childhood imaginary friend that grew up to be real; however, as an adult he has a sexual relationship with her.

>> No.29150195

>>29148942
>Your young brother's body was removed in an alchemical accident when you tried to resurrect your dead mom. You managed to store his soul in an eidolon.

Needs more 'create pit' spells.

>> No.29150245

>>29150093
Well one of the players was an absurdly good driver. Like he didn't have to roll to pop a wheelie in his van.

>> No.29150262

>>29150150

Add the Push evolution and you can send people you hit with your cannon flying backwards 5-feet.

Eventually add in a breath weapon and flavor it as one of the tank crew popping out of the top and spraying the area with machine gun fire.

>> No.29150268

>>29146250
It depends. I played it with a fairly Persona/Stand hybrid theme: His Eidolon is a physical manifestation of my character's fight or flight response set to fight-only mode, which takes elements from repressed emotions, defense mechanisms and my summoner's reaction to stress. Usually he's pretty quiet, scholarly and shy, who only got involved because a good friend of his needed his help and asked him to join the party.

Sometimes he's a rampaging eight foot tall suit of black armor with claws and spider-legs coming out of his upper back and shoulders who screams incoherently and kills anything that it perceives as a threat. Sometimes this suit of armor sets itself and anything near it on fire, because that makes it kill harder.

>> No.29150273

>>29150150
wouldn't be more logical to give a bow with explosive arrows to your tankdolon?
Hell there are firearms in PF, give it the biggest musket and feat competencies, make the whole huge or bigger size
There,now you have your tank

>> No.29150303

>>29150005
If your eidolon is a manifestation of yourself, what would it mean if you had an opposite sex eidolon?

>> No.29150305

>>29150245

>> No.29150311

>>29150098
Take ranks in Perform (Dance) to improve your ability to pose.

>> No.29150320

>>29150303
You need to get laid.

>> No.29150335

>>29150320
(Possibly by a dude)

>> No.29150340

>>29150303
It represents a man's feminine side/a girl's dudebro side.

While (s)he might want to be the little girl/boy, it could mean just being comfortable with one's identity or someone who feels challenged by their society's gender roles.

Not a lot of magical realm or that guy shit there unless you force it, would party with.

>> No.29150357

>>29150340
Addendum: Hell, it could just mean "prefers the company of the opposite sex, and thus manifested one" if you wanted.

>> No.29150364

>>29150303
It means you deeply crave the opposite sex.

>> No.29150417

>>29150364
>lvl 7
>ogre mage
>kinky

>> No.29150429

>>29150417
>drider
>troll
>large animated object
>sprite
>sprites

>> No.29150444

>>29150429
>>29150417
Not gonna lie, summoning a horde of tiefling girls at 9th will be sufficient.

>> No.29150468

>>29150364
>Summon Sex Partner
>The creature summoned may not be entirely willing (some are) but is bound by the magic of the spell to do what is required and cannot return to their home save by fulfilling the demands of the spell.
>Beware of meeting a previously summoned creature outside the context of the spell or you may well be in trouble.

I now want to play a game where I'm a monster who meets a wizard/sorcerer who previously summoned me.

>> No.29150469

>>29146250
I did something similar to this, it was more a father/daughter relationship though. And I was playing an alchemist. She was the best animal companion I ever had.

>> No.29150474

>>29150364
>medium sized animated object
This is parody, right?

>> No.29150489

>>29150469
Don't overuse it anon, and stick to stuff where it fits.

>> No.29150495

>>29149867
Welp, anon, time to mosey over to the ERP general to find someone to reenact this scenario with. Thanks for the new fetish, you jerk.

>> No.29150497

>>29150364
Best summoner is Mystic Pimp Summoner.
And yes, I would allow a summoner to take a feat to let their summon monster ability be used as summon sex partner.

>>29150474
It's half a parody, full workable rules, doesn't take itself to seriously, but all works for fun.

>> No.29150530

>>29150273
>Hell there are firearms in PF, give it the biggest musket and feat competencies, make the whole huge or bigger size
Two words: Double Hackbut

>> No.29150534

>>29149926
I find that upsetting on a deeply philosophical level.

>> No.29150565

>>29150534
It's not for everyone. On one hand you've got people that see nothing wrong with memory charms and love potions being things highschoolers use in the harry potter verse.
On the other you've got people claiming charm person is worse than date rape and any sort of mental tweaking is worse than death because it's the death of personality.

I prefer the middle ground, treat mental magic very carefully, and use it responsibly. Don't charm the bar wench to get good prices and a bed warmer, charm her because she looked like she needed a good friend for the night and so you can convince her to cut back on her drinking.

>> No.29150567

>>29150534
You wouldn't if you were someone's thrall.

>> No.29150577

>>29150534
Is it the fact that he not only robs her free will, but replaces her will with her own desire to be subservient. Or is it that she became "good" based soley on her interactions with the thrallherd himself instead of societal interactions which originally compelled her to become what is assumed to be evil (though we never know her alignment to begin with, the comment just states there is room to draw a thrall of differing of alignment).

>> No.29150579

>>29150534
I do too in real life. I'd hate for it to happen to myself or someone else.

But as a fantasy, there's little more enticing. Just giving up free thought like that...

>> No.29150581

>>29150565
Don't charm her at all more like. Charm Person is absolutely an offensive spell.

>> No.29150585

>>29150469
You were an alchemist with an animal companion, and your animal companion was a maid?

I thought only druids were into that.

>> No.29150600

>>29150585
You are correct, it was initially just an experiment, but she wanted to help out, the result was quite useful.

>> No.29150617

>>29150565
Sure buddy, whatever lets you sleep at night.

>> No.29150622

>>29150600
Please tell the full story!

>> No.29150635

>>29150565
>Don't charm the bar wench to get good prices and a bed warmer, charm her because she looked like she needed a good friend for the night and so you can convince her to cut back on her drinking.
And the cheap drinks and warm bed become just a bonus? I'd play that lonely charmed bar wench.

>> No.29150651

>>29150581
I differ on that subject, charm person is a good tool but it is NOT offensive. Like the gods are watching their servants the clerics/oracles/paladins/favored souls/whatever. Powerful creatures of magic that like the rules of magic well established keep a close eye for any abuses of magic. Now PCs may get to use charm magic to their advantage or the targets detriment, but abuse of it will garner the eye of powerful lawful magic users who will offer a fair warning before doing anything e lse.

>> No.29150656

>>29150581
>Get someone to like you by social interaction and natural charisma
>Fine and dandy

>Get someone to like you by tweaking their perception of you to make yourself seem more charming to them
>Grossly offensive

Not saying I don't agree with you on a gut instinct level, but it is an interesting sort of philosophical conundrum. Why are we ok with changing a person's perception of us gradually and organically, but not abruptly?

Heck, even on a more mundane, real-world level, why are we generally ok with persuasion, but highly efficient methods of persuasion are dubbed "brainwashing" and considered distasteful?

>> No.29150659

>>29150581
Sure it is, that why it has a -5 to the will save if used in combat.
>>29150617
Like it's any worse than the forever fucked social interaction rules in DnD, WoD etc. Diplomacy alone is worse than most enchantment magic.

>> No.29150682

>>29150565
>On the other you've got people claiming charm person is worse than date rape and any sort of mental tweaking is worse than death because it's the death of personality.
"Sane people" is a shorter way of saying that.

>> No.29150685

>>29150659
>Diplomacy alone is worse than most enchantment magic.
This, all the magic in the world still does nothing compared to a few well rolled diplomacy and bluff checks.

>> No.29150696

>>29150682
Don't flatter yourself.

>> No.29150708

Would you willingly let your sorcerer lover cast charm spells on you? "If you really loved me, it wouldn't make a difference. And it will bring us so much closer."

>> No.29150712

>>29150534
While we are on the subject,
I'm just wondering is ultimate psionics out on the internet yet or am I prematurely searching for it?

>> No.29150724

>>29149926
Dammit, now I really wish that thrallherd had made into pathfinder as something other than dreamscarred press.

>>29150534
>Those who answer a thrallherd’s call are not referred to as cohorts and followers, but rather as thralls and believers, respectively. They do not appear because they admire the character and want to serve her, but because a hidden psychic resonance connects the thrallherd and her servants.

This could be taken many, many ways. We all know somebody who believes in something despite all evidence to the contrary and so on. Religion, Free Market, Socialism, etc. Perhaps the thrallherd merely finds the kind of person that NEEDS to believe and devote themselves to something, then fills the role.
And that's not even getting into shit like the sanctify the wicked spell, or helms of alignment used on evil beings, etc.

As for >>29150682 what is worse? Killing someone, or charming them to try and lead them towards rehabilitation?

>>29150708
Any phrase that includes 'if you really loved me' when asking for something is a bright RED sign of an asshole being emotionally manipulative.

>> No.29150763

>>29150656
As someone who has the "mind control = always evil" mindset, I have a personal perspective here if it helps.

I don't really see persuasion and brainwashing as the same thing; persuasion is natural, brainwashing either requires torture as a means of punishment for noncompliance or denial of access to knowledge independent of the source attempting to persuade or coerce for one to use for their decision-making process. If you don't do these and can convince someone of something, you're persuasive. Otherwise you need to be shot.

Mind affecting spells like charm person are touchy, because instead of the person deciding that because your points make sense based on their own decisions, you're making those decisions for them. The lack of freedom of thought is what makes the concept abhorrent in this case.

Full-on domination is pretty harsh and using it for anything short of preventing harm to them and others long is the same as kidnapping someone or doing whatever you want with someone who's been tied down. At its worst, it is literal enslavement and mindrape.

That said not all mind mages would be evil for using it if they were using it for the right reasons, but the practice would be going against human rights and human nature in my book.

>> No.29150778

>>29150724
>As for >>29150682 (You) what is worse? Killing someone, or charming them to try and lead them towards rehabilitation?
Can't speak for everyone, but I'll take a slit throat over a lobotomy any day.

>> No.29150795

>>29150724
>Any phrase that includes 'if you really loved me' when asking for something is a bright RED sign of an asshole being emotionally manipulative.
It's a spellcaster, if you don't assume it's a manipulative asshole from the start you've made a mistake.

>> No.29150796

>>29150778
>Comparing a temporary change in viewpoint to give someone perspective to a unrecoverable surgery that leaves them less than an animal.
Yea you're really building a strong argument.

>> No.29150820

>>29150763
>long enough to be detained normally*
Whoops

>> No.29150821

>>29150724
Dreamscarred Press is apparently rated well. Failing that, you could take Leadership or play a summoner and fluff your cohort/eidolon as a thrall.

>Perhaps the thrallherd merely finds the kind of person that NEEDS to believe and devote themselves to something, then fills the role.
This makes it all the more appealing. Someone needs to be told what to do, mastered by someone with more force of will than they possess. The thrallherd offers to provide that mastering, promises to care for you and give you a happy life. All you need to do is give up that free will that's been so troublesome for you.

>> No.29150830

>>29150763
I love thrallherds and various forms of mental magic, and I halfway agree with you.
Straight up domination is rarely a good tools, it has it's uses in combat, but that's it. Other spells that nudge and guide though, that I'm alright with. Giving someone a good feeling when they do the right thing is classic conditioning, and you can do it with magic or candy or simple praise.

Main issue with mind control powers is their blanket usefulness. When all you have is a hammer....

>> No.29150831

>>29150796
Why would the rehabilitation stick if the charm is temporary?

>> No.29150834

>>29150796
>expecting people to be rational in the presence of people advocating brain rape

>> No.29150859

>>29150831
Because the memories stick. You might not like the guy in a pointy hat now that the day is over, but you've got to admit to yourself, it did feel good to help those townsfolk, and the food they shared with you when you raised the wall instead of tearing it down was nice.
Maybe, just maybe if you keep being nice instead of trying to steal their sheep...

>> No.29150878

>>29150830
If someone can decide, even with your magical nudges, that your goals and commands are stupid, ignore them, and retaliate against you for attempting to coerce them than it isn't going to be that big of a deal, though I have to say I'd have to describe anyone who uses it as manipulative and passive-aggressive for needing something artificial to condition people to listen to them.

>> No.29150893

>>29150763
Taking your arguments and turning them, a will save would work are your (1) logic against persuasion, (2) hope under torture, (3) knowledge against brainwashing.
Hard mind control, like full on enslavement, would in my book require will saves enough to give the target a chance to get out of that enslavement. Also a bonus that scales with how against the person is with the action.

A command to sit would bring little resistance from the target, but a command to stab their mother would bring out a huge bonus to will save.

>> No.29150897

>>29150763
So basically, it's a matter of compromising one's rational nature? As long as all the information is present and the subject isn't tortured into accepting it, then it's fine no matter how distorted the manner in which the information is presented?

Where do you draw the line between acceptable spin doctoring and denying access to information? What about between acceptable levels of social pressure/coercion to accept the claims versus torture?

>> No.29150910

Can we stop talking about mindrape and go back to talking about eidolons or posting maids?

>> No.29150913

>>29150893
A command from anyone I don't have a valid reason to respect is a useless command given to someone else, because clearly nobody is going to be so massive an idiot as to command someone they just met without good reason and expect results.

Hand me them will save bonuses, GM.

>> No.29150917

>>29150724
What's wrong with Dreamscarred Press? They did a really solid job of converting over and expanding the 3.5 psionics for PF.

>> No.29150929

>>29150917
It's not 'official' and some of the people I play with therefore ban it.
That and no adventure paths with psionics in them, pathfinder society, etc.

>> No.29150931

>>29150913
And I would call you on your bullshit reasoning and say you are under the affect of mind control that's the reason you need to roll against it. Simple as that.

>> No.29150950

>>29150763
On the topic of >>29150910.
What is your stance on the Summoner/Eidolon bond? The creature summoned/created is loyal to the summoner, inherently reliant upon them, and generally viewed to be an extension of their will.
What about Familiars?
Planar binding is of course outright slavery, so it's not worth bringing up.

>> No.29150953

>be an epic level summoner with a mighty shadow dragon/monster thing as an eidolon

>at the end of the campaign, i discover i'm just the eidolon of the godess of summoning

That was probably the best plot twist a GM ever pulled on me.

>no john, you're summoned
>and then john was an eidolon

>> No.29150960

>>29150929
Man, that mindset always baffles me. Sorry the folks you play with are such sticks in the mud, anon.

>> No.29150963

>>29149032
Patchouli's magic is closer to that of a wizard than a witch, though.

>> No.29150966

>>29150897
>Where do you draw the line between acceptable spin doctoring and denying access to information?
If I can (without you attempting to interfere) get up, leave, go to a source you've had no dealings with, conduct independent research without your interference and come back with that information before making a decision, it isn't denial of access.

>What about between acceptable levels of social pressure/coercion to accept the claims versus torture?
If I can (without you attempting to interfere) get up, leave, and find another person with the resources to make a difference and who I can talk to about trying to get the things I want or need that you're denying me or go somewhere where people don't inflict intentional physical or psychological harm on me because I don't think the same thoughts they have, you're not torturing yet.

This isn't hard.

>> No.29150970

>>29150859
Except you have no reason to trust any of those good feelings because for all you know the pointy hatted bastard stuck them in your head and you could have had all the food if you'd struck when the wall was down.

>> No.29150979

>>29150950
Planar Binding isn't actually slavery, as you need to bargain with the creature and agree on a suitable compensation for their services. It's still not exactly totally legitimate exchange of services, given that you're trapping the entity in a magic circle until a deal is made, but it's not quite outright enslavement either.

Now, summon spells, on the other hand...

>> No.29150985

>>29150931
If you can't justify why I should listen to you in every other second of my life, I wouldn't. If you can't justify why I should obey your commands in every other second of my life, I wouldn't. Just because some skirt-wearing faggot wants to twirl and ask some astral cock he keeps in his ass to make me ignore the core of what I am, doesn't mean he should get it.

>> No.29150995

>>29150950
I consider the Eidolon to be the same consciousness as the Summoner, and willing to listen because it's listening to its own self.

>> No.29151007

>>29150979
Planar binding has the Option of payment, to make the cha check better. But nothing is stopping you from just browbeating the outsider until you make the cha check to get its services for free.
Planar Ally is a deal between equals, with payment and bargaining and so on.

Summon spells, no one has ever really explained how they work to me. I've had people claim that it just creates an outsider wholecloth, others say that the outsider summoned just experiences it all as a dream, even one that said the spell was made with every option built into it, and you were summoning the same celestial trap monkey every time, and that monkey didn't exist when not summoned.

>> No.29151023

>>29150985
Then don't play with mind control, simple as that. It's not really up to everyone else to make sure you are comfortable, only you.

Anyways enough of that.

>> No.29151037

>>29151023
Literally every time I have banned mind control in my games, someone has specifically whined about it not being present.

It's starting to get annoying.

>> No.29151039

>>29150966
So basically, "buyer beware" taken to its logical conclusion, then? No matter what tricks may be employed to make the likelihood of someone questioning/leaving essentially near-zero, it's all good as long as there's no open interference on the unlikely occasion someone decides to look elsewhere?

What about if you get someone emotionally dependent on a social context you provide and leverage that dependency to persuade someone to assent to your claims? What if the dependency is a physical one -- get someone involved in drug use, then once they're addicted use drug supply as a bargaining chip for them to go along with your demands?

>> No.29151046

>>29150995
Interesting, even though it can have different knowledge skills and so on?

>> No.29151078

>>29151039
>So basically, "buyer beware" taken to its logical conclusion, then? No matter what tricks may be employed to make the likelihood of someone questioning/leaving essentially near-zero, it's all good as long as there's no open interference on the unlikely occasion someone decides to look elsewhere?
Basically. There's being a manipulative cunt, and then there's being someone who needs to be murdered and the crime never solved. I can forgive someone's weakness if they need the former, albeit with my pity.

>What about if you get someone emotionally dependent on a social context you provide and leverage that dependency to persuade someone to assent to your claims?
Again, you're weak, a faggot and deserving of pity for your insufferable weakness, but they have the ability and means to go elsewhere without your shit. If you go after everyone they try to associate with in an attempt to counter them leaving, you haven't opted out of interfering and it becomes torture.

>What if the dependency is a physical one -- get someone involved in drug use, then once they're addicted use drug supply as a bargaining chip for them to go along with your demands?
Unless they have an available competitor they have access to and whom you do not deal with or interfere with, you're torturing.

Common sense, faggot. Lawyer logic only works on other lawyers.

>> No.29151086

>>29150081

Now I just need to pitch a high level campaign idea to my DM...

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=747446

>> No.29151095

>>29151046
Yeah. It has the conscious emotions, urges, and motivations of the Summoner, even if it has access to abilities the Summoner does not. Johny isn't a new and different person just because he learned integral calculus, just a smarter one.

>> No.29151098

>>29151078
You like reading Ayn Rand don't you?

>> No.29151113

>>29151095
>a smarter version of himself
Clarification of wording.

>> No.29151118

>>29150469
You tried.

>> No.29151129

>>29151098
She was a useless piece of shit, what are you on about. Are we changing the subject because you lack an argument?

>> No.29151145

>>29151129
Just checking, you seem to be espousing a 'weakness means you're fucked and deserve no pity' viewpoint.

>> No.29151161

>>29151095
http://paizo.com/pathfinder/tales/serial/faithfulServants
Click the show post bit on the right, it shows an Eidolon as being a separate entity.

>> No.29151166

>>29151145
Weakness deserves pity, I explicitly said that above. I'm calling people who need indirect means of manipulation and catty bitch tactics in the absence of reason and genuine quality to get their way weak because they're trying to act above the station they deserve.

>> No.29151274

>>29150651
You should use it to get into the castle or stop the orc from killing you or whatever. You absolutely should not use it to go to bed with something, that is literally date rape.

>> No.29151281

>>29151129
This guy >>29151098 is someone else, not me (the one you've been conversing with).

>>29151078
I question the logic of refusal to provide more of a drug being torture. I'm not talking about forcibly or deceptively drugging them until they develop a dependency; I'm talking about a case where the subject got themselves addicted by willingly taking the drug in the first place. Even if you happen to have a monopoly on the drug in question, isn't this still a case of the subject being a weak-willed fool, no less than the subject allowing themselves to become emotionally dependent? Emotional dependencies are not necessarily any easier to break than physical ones, and it's not like you're denying access to food or something actually essential to survival. You're not causing the distress the subject experiences when denied their fix; that's happening naturally as a consequence of the bad decisions the subject made in the past.

At any rate, I was more trying to work out what looked to me like a bizarre, arbitrary line that set off only outright blocking and torture as bad and anything else ok. But it seems I was mistaken about that an your position is more that underhanded manipulation of lesser degrees is still bad, just not absolutely terribad like the extremes we're discussing. That makes more sense.

>> No.29151294

>>29151166
But by your argument it's not so much the weakness or 'station they deserve' as it is the methods? Indirect manipulation can be used to perfectly good ends, be it personal guilt or trade sanctions and so on.
Mental magic is just another tool, no different from the evocator that throws fireballs at every problem, or the barbarian that muscles and intimidates his way through things. If your mind is all you have, why not use it?

Also asking the first question because of your outright violent tone.

>> No.29151323

>>29151037
It's probably due to magical realm.

>> No.29151326

>>29151086
Are there more past ghost riders because i'd read comics about every single one of the riders there. Holy shit.

>> No.29151357

>>29151326

There are a LOT of Ghost Riders, but unfortunately I don't think most of the ones pictured ever had their own story.

>> No.29151360

>>29151281
>At any rate, I was more trying to work out what looked to me like a bizarre, arbitrary line that set off only outright blocking and torture as bad and anything else ok. But it seems I was mistaken about that an your position is more that underhanded manipulation of lesser degrees is still bad, just not absolutely terribad like the extremes we're discussing. That makes more sense.
I'm confused how you thought the former was possible within the context of human thought, but I'll accept that you understand my position as it is and leave it there.

It is my belief that being underhanded for any reason other than "if I don't I'm literally going to die because I didn't" is something people should be ashamed of and avoid doing, and I live my life by it as much as I choose my associates and allegiances by it.

>> No.29151388

>>29151357
I know theres a lot of ghost riders, I was just hoping there would be some more info about the ones there. Like the indian brave one or the tank team.

>> No.29151392

>>29151357

>Four-armed presumably Indian Ghost Rider on a fucking flaming elephant in the upper left.

>> No.29151439

>>29151294
>But by your argument it's not so much the weakness or 'station they deserve' as it is the methods?
It's a combination of both, really. The methods are a symptom of the mindset, and both need correcting.
>Indirect manipulation can be used to perfectly good ends, be it personal guilt or trade sanctions and so on.
So can killing someone, that doesn't make murder a good thing.
>Mental magic is just another tool, no different from the evocator that throws fireballs at every problem, or the barbarian that muscles and intimidates his way through things.
All these are negative in their own way. Violence kills someone who might have been able to be reasonable in other circumstances, but it leaves a less unpleasant taste to know you did this to someone who chose to attack and chose not to retreat, who could back out at any time and you would have the good fortune to find a less violent solution. The destruction of free thought in mind control removes the option to voluntarily back out, and that's the proverbial line I personally cannot tolerate crossing or having crossed.
>If your mind is all you have, why not use it?
There are alternative ways to use it, which goes back to the above arguments.

>Also asking the first question because of your outright violent tone.
It's a habit. I'm particularly nonplussed by the subject of mind control that's how all this started, so it put me in a very sour mood.

>> No.29151447

>>29151392
>Aztec/jaguar warrior ghost rider
>Fucking ghostrider riding a sabter toothed tiger or something else with a spear
>another riding a bull/bison
>samurai ghost riders

this is possibly the best goddamn ghost rider image of all time.

>> No.29151479

>>29151447
Voodoo ghost rider, chimpanzee ghost rider in the foreground and elephant-rider ghost rider did it for me.

>> No.29151492

>>29151447

>Scottish Ghost Rider wielding bagpipes.

>> No.29151514

>>29151439
I think then the main crux of our argument comes down to the use of mind control magic vrs other forms of combat, and the option to back out.
Mechanically I can understand it, it's in there with the save or die stuff, and a lot of dm's wont put the effort into encounters to give you an option or incentive to look for peaceful resolution.
Personally, it's iffy for me. I like the power and fun in playing it, but if I really had it I would be terrified of falling off the slippery slope. A little mind control to help someone kick a smoking habit, sure. A nudge here and there to remind someone that other people have feelings. But then well, it would be to easy to push a convict harder, or wonder why people on death row should die instead of being useful to society.

>> No.29151580

>>29151514
>and a lot of dm's wont put the effort into encounters to give you an option or incentive to look for peaceful resolution.
Between my real-world beliefs on the nature of being underhanded for matters outside of survival and the fact that my previous DMs are not "most" DM's by this standard, I hope you can see why it puts me off so much.

>> No.29151607

>>29151129
Hyperangry troll hates Ayn Rand, philosopher/author who wrote long books with long words about tricky concepts. Not surprised.

>> No.29151608

In the high powered game I'm currently running, one of my players (synthesist summoner, monk gestalt with 3rd party feat to use his wisdom for spells) his eidolon is just an extension of his self, and he flat out told us hes being Ultraman, so I went ahead and created an entire planet of his kind. They are know as Starman.

>> No.29151641

>>29146250
I wrote my Eidolon as a lonely outsider who just wanted to be loved, and my character as an indifferent murderscholar mainly interested in the Eidolon as an efficient weapon. Think pit bull/dogfight trainer, if pit bulls were sentient.

I might've been a little bit lawful evil

>> No.29151646

>>29151607

I really hope that you're not suggesting Ayn Rand was anything but a terrible person.

>> No.29151673

>>29151607

>> No.29151689

>>29151607
>Defending Ayn Rand
>A mediocre writer anyone with a highschool education could out-write
>A pleb philosopher who didn't adhere to based Existentialism
>Someone who died on welfare after spending her life denouncing it

I know you're trolling, but it had to be said.

>> No.29151705

>>29151492
>>29151479
>>29151392
Is that a kobold ghost rider in the bottom left?

>> No.29151727

>>29151705
No.

>> No.29151835

I've never played Pathfinder, would playing summoners allow you to make things like Personas or Stands?
It'd be fun to play some sort of Jojo game or Persona type game.

>> No.29151850

>>29151835
Sort-of, yeah. It's the FF type of summoner.

>> No.29151853

>>29151357
Are there RPG's where you can easily play a ghost-riderish "paladin undead"?

I don't care about fiery skulls, I just want to know if you can play a "you are huge evil cleave and smite" undead. Because there are plenty of stories of "good" undead in mythology. They're just not "nice" undead.

>> No.29151859

>>29151835
Yes and Yes.

You might need to make homeshit for instant summoning/eidolons who are invisible to non Stand users though.

>> No.29151862

>>29151392
>the fucking truck rider
>beep beep motherfucker

>> No.29151879

>>29151357
I like the Inuit tracker-ghost rider myself.

>> No.29151884

>>29151853
You can do that in any system with rules for undead and rules for paladin-like characters, I would reckon.

>> No.29151888

>>29151853
I suppose Exalted can do that concept to an extent but its pretty limited.

4e has like one or two undead races and you can be a paladin who acts like ghost rider, or an avenger.

>> No.29151909

>>29151862
Imagine.

>crime lord tries to escape the ghost rider
>gets rammed off the road
>crashes his car
>ghost rider drags him back onto the road, breaks his legs
>he goes back to his truck
>puts his truck in reverse
>bleep
>bleep
>bleep
>bleep
>*crunch*
>bleep
>bleep
*crunch*
>"Hey Anthony, you're not dying on me yet, are you?"

>> No.29151924

>>29151909
>mfw my name is Anthony
You cocksucker.

>> No.29151995

>>29151924
I can't stop laughing, hahahahahahahah. Oh Xom, master of the RNG, how I thank you with all my heart.

>> No.29152152

>>29151850
>>29151859
Oh this sounds really cool!
What sort of things are eidolons capable of doing? Like, do they get their own class or do they pick and choose from some list of abilities?

>> No.29152197

>>29152152
Choose from a list of abilities/traits, some of which are stackable.
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons

>> No.29152231

>>29150469
>>29150622

We all know how this story ends.

>> No.29152254

>>29152231

>> No.29152349

>>29152197
Is pathfinder an easy system to run?

>> No.29152402

>>29152349
Well, for me it is, but because I made a lot of different characters. The system itself is very clear, understandable, just the right amount of complexity for me. And you can find everything online.

>> No.29152508

I just had an idea, I could use Annie from LoL as a Summoner. Tibbers is perfect Eidolon material. Shame I have no opportunity to play PF.

>> No.29152527

>>29152508

Now you're talkin'.

>> No.29152552

>>29152508
>>29152527
>Pathfinder campaign in the LoL setting
How would that work?

>> No.29152558

So I was looking at the shadowy form ability for eidolons and I want to make an eidolon that doesn't use melee attacks.

Any idea how that could be effective?

>> No.29152566

>>29152552
You're treasure or artifact hunters working with the institute of war to find new magical items that can be donated to the institute as the basis for new items for Champions to use.

>> No.29152584

>>29152566
Damn, now I want to play this.

>> No.29152609

>>29152349
But JJBA is completely all over power wise and stands would be impossible to create.
And Persona sucks.

>> No.29152635

>>29152508
What if all the champions are just eidolons of their summoners?

>> No.29152663

>>29152635
What if you are the eidolon?

>> No.29152685

>>29152663
We already had that over here >>29150953

>> No.29152742

>>29152508
Nunu could be a summoner as well... or a ranger?

>> No.29152743

>>29152558
Get use magic device and supply it with wands.
Magical bow and arrows, all the archery feats.
Swallow whole damage, does it count as melee?
Personally I only use the shadow form bit as an evolution surge power when the Eidolon really needs to tank something.

>> No.29152947

>>29151859
Can you make King Crimson?

>> No.29153086

>>29152743
>Magical bow and arrows, all the archery feats.

I now want to make one of the blind archers from samurai jack as an eidolon.

>> No.29153164

So i've got a question- friends and I have been out of tabletop RPGs for years due to lack of time anyone can invest in DMing, Was thinking i'd pick up a campaign to play with them. We're only really familiar with 3.5, but from what i've learned about pathfinder the transition will be more or less seamless.

Are there any awesome campaign modules? Anything works, if it's really fun, but ones that have a bit of black humor or lower magic tones to them would be better, sort of Discworld-ish, from what we're used to playing/creating.

>> No.29153392

>>29153086

Maybe you could work with your DM on that. Give it a total inability to make sight-based perception checks in exchange for doubling/tripling the range of the Tremorsense/Blindsense/Blindsight, something like that.

>> No.29153480

>>29153164

I'd go with either Rise of the Runelords (which is considered the best Pathfinder module by many) or Kingmaker. The latter manages to retain a rather low fantasy air for at least the first few chapters; you're more often than not fighting bandits and the like, and when you do come up against dangerous beasts or fae they tend to be very dangerous opponents.

Kingmaker is a lot more book keeping than you may be used to (at least from Chapter 2 onwards), but your players might have fun working together to build their own kingdom.

>> No.29153621

I want to make a eidolon that knuckle walks, like a gorilla, but I have to choose either biped or quadruped. Surely, someone must have added in the third option by now?

>> No.29153649

>>29153621

Why would it need another option? Just make a biped and say that it knuckle-walks.

>> No.29153664

>>29153649
Because I want to add evolutions to it, like riding that has the prerequisite of being a quadruped.

>> No.29153698

>>29147368
I love how "magical realm" has evolved as a phrase here.

>> No.29153720

>>29153480

Those both sound really fun, after a read up. Thanks a ton for the answer, im sold.

>> No.29153950

>>29151689
>based Existentialism
Well the fact you say this and oppose Rand is enough to support her.

>> No.29154056

>>29153664
Build it as a girallon, six limbs. Just go with quadruped and have fun from there.

>> No.29154079

>>29153480
IMO Kingmaker is hugely overhyped and a pretty shit module overall, but RotR is solid.

>> No.29154098

>>29153621
Knuckle-walking is quadrupedal movement.

>> No.29154185

>>29153664

Then make it a quadruped, then buy arms and reflavor the forelegs and arms as being the same limbs.

>> No.29154304

>>29150834
>my entire argument centers around preservation of rational self-possession
>better present it as irrationally as possible
Strong, strong argument.

>> No.29154537

>>29150005
Esper!Terra as an Eidolon, why did I never think of this?

>> No.29154583

>>29152947
Nope. Almost no jojo stand can be replied in PF.

>> No.29154602

>>29154583

Yeah, you'd need a far more ridiculous system to stat out most stands. Maybe Mutants & Masterminds.

>> No.29154712

>>29154602
You can do stands in M&M but they're really costly.

>> No.29154872

>>29149180
>Your Eidolon is a kind of weapon designed by a magical armaments laboratory

... Now I've gotta play pic related.

>> No.29154902

>>29150364
>casts spell
>proceeds to cuddle and sob

>> No.29155146

>>29149856
care to explain who is this ozoi and what is the deal with her?

>> No.29155192

>>29148196
>>29148037

>> No.29155546

>>29150953
Wasnt that Final Fantasy X?

>> No.29159126

>>29155146
Some 2chan thing I think

>>
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