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28957225 No.28957225 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Last thread died;

Discuss your lists, showoff your models, talk about fluff. This is the place to be.

>> No.28957326

NO TERRAIN
REVENANT ONLY
FINAL DESTINATION

>> No.28957339

>>28957326
>Implying terrain can save you from a 36" teleportan ignore-all-savan 4 Str-D Large Blastan juggernaut.

>> No.28957377

>>28957339
>i wall off my army with LoS blocking terrain and fill the area with models so you can't land behind it

>> No.28957459

Farsight No Markerlights 1750pts Please Rate

HQ

Commander 143pts
2x Plasma Rifles, ATS, Shield Generator

Elites

Riptide 225pts
Stim, EWO

Riptide 225pts
Stim, EWO

Troops

Crisis Team #1 172pts (Commander Here)
2x Plasma, ATS
2x Fusion Blaster, Target Lock
2x Fusion Blaster, Target Lock

Crisis Team #2 174pts
2x Fusion Blaster, VRT
2x Fusion Blaster, VRT
2x Fusion Blaster, VRT

Crisis Team #3 114pts
2x Flamer, VRT
2x Flamer, VRT
2x Flamer, VRT

Crisis Team #4 114pts
2x Flamer, VRT
2x Flamer, VRT
2x Flamer, VRT

11 Kroot 66pts

11 Kroot 66pts

Fast Attack

Barracuda 149pts
Disruption Pod, Decoy Launcher,, Blacksun Filter

Barracuda 149pts
Disruption Pod, Decoy Launcher,, Blacksun Filter

Barracuda 149pts
Disruption Pod, Decoy Launcher,, Blacksun Filter

>> No.28957461

Really, the simple truth of the matter is that you CAN'T fix 40k. It'll always be broken, it'll always have its power builds. And we've been very hands-off, because these builds rotate, and a variety of lists do well in the tournament, and everyone still has a good time.

This year sitting at that judges booth was very different. The field was oppressively un-diverse, with a couple builds persisting at all levels. This was the first year that I had players request dropping, because they just didn't want to play another game against these lists. It was the first year that I had players turn in score sheets 30 seconds after the round started, because “we already know what's going to happen, and we just want to go get some beers”.

I think about one player in particular a lot. He was one of the last to check in, and in the few minutes before the tournament started we struck up a conversation and he admitted he was a pretty new player. A local, this was one of his first tournaments. I knew his list, it wasn't bad, but I also knew that he wasn't going to place very highly in the event. I'm sure he harbored aspirations for the top, but I think that ultimately he knew he didn't really have a great shot. Still, he was excited to play and test himself against the difficult field that's present in the FoB Invitational.

He didn't do that poorly in the event, finishing middle of the pack, which is pretty strong at our event. I talked to him again in a lull, just before the awards were handed out, and his attitude was a night and day difference from the start of the event. He wanted to know why he had to fight so many Tau and Eldar players, why every game was multiple Riptides or Wraithknights. He wanted to know why we didn't have any restrictions on what people could bring, and why we allow for a field that had such bad diversity. I didn't have time to give him a good answer, or all the arguments against comp, and he went away disappointed.

>> No.28957474

>>28957461

It's easy to look at that player and see a scrub, someone who needs to “learn to play” and who should get a better army. But it's important to see the other side of it too: there was someone who came to a big event, played a lot of 40k, and didn't have fun.

I'm not telling this story because I think it's a strong piece of evidence in and of itself, but rather because it illustrates a reality that is happening at events all over the nation: a lot of people simply aren't having fun playing the game. So I wonder, what's the point of an event where I have people in bracket 2 dropping games because they don't want to fight quad-riptide again? What's the point of an event where I can tell you with absolute surety that some 70% of players have a 0% shot at the top table, simply because of their list? Most of all, what is the point of running an event if a lot of players aren't having fun?

>> No.28957482

>>28957459

Those are of course Iontides as you can see from the points total

>> No.28957536

>>28957474

Well you answered your own question really. There isn't a reason to run events where people are not having fun.

Its not like this is SC2 and you are making ad dollars just because its happening fun be damned.

>> No.28957589

>>28957474
Make events where painting/modeling, and most importantly sportsmanship, are on eqaual ground when it comes to tournament scoring.

40k has shit balance, and will always have shit balance. Everyone who plays 40k knows this, and no matter how they bitch about it all of them made a choice that it was still worth it.

>> No.28957602

>>28957589
>painting/modeling, and most importantly sportsmanship

>making subjective aspects based entirely on tasted and personal perception as important as objective aspects.

nope.jpg

>> No.28957614

>>28957459
Non-sniper kroot are shit. Sniper kroot are still shit, but slightly less so. Drop some stuff to give the snipers, or replace them with firewarriors.

Otherwise, pretty decent.

>> No.28957644

>>28957602
>Objective aspects.
I totally would agree with you, if this were any other game. But winning games isn't about tactics in competitive 40k, it's about whatever min-maxed net list you bring. Who wins isn't based on the skills of the player.

>> No.28957666

>>28957644
>But winning games isn't about tactics in competitive 40k, it's about whatever min-maxed net list you bring. Who wins isn't based on the skills of the player.

The worst part is the game's rules totally allow this to be the case, where superior tactics, strategy, and rules knowledge gives you advantage, via things like focus firing, screening, unit coherency increasing potential assault ranges, defensive assaults that eliminate 99% of overwatch, etc.

But GW is so incompetent they just release shit like White Dwarf 6E flamer daemons, 6E Screamer daemons, 6E Eldar, 6E Tau, Escalation, etc, not to mention all the old OP shit from past editions, that just totally shits on and kills any aspect of gameplay other than deploy, roll for first turn, try to seize, steamroll.

>> No.28957692

Y'all niggas need to stop playing competitively if it is so bad. There are other ways to have fun, you know. If you're having fun playing competitively, continue by all means.

>> No.28957701

>>28957692
>ignore the problem instead of fixing it

Real helpful.

>> No.28957727

>>28957459
you don't need VRT on every mother fucker hit and run states just one model in the unit needs to test and he pulls everyone out.

I am a fan of flamers on crisis suits but not that many..and fliers? really?

>> No.28957732

>>28957701
>implying you're going to solve the problem

>> No.28957741

>>28957666
I brought 2 riptides to a 1k tournament, didn't table anyone. Is min/maxing so wrong? yes there were people who were tabled

>> No.28957744

>>28957701

I don't know, it's a core design problem. I never play at tournaments, I play mostly fluffy, fun lists, where people who do the same will meet me for a few beers, play on a table covered in tons of terrain, and have fun, win or lose.

>> No.28957759

>>28957732
>implying you will when your post clearly already presents a 0% chance of doing anything

TO's have mentioned Internet response time and time again. Discussion definitely affects something, whereas just ignoring it affects nothing.

You are the cancer killing the casual players' reputation.

>> No.28957762

>>28957666
Absolutely true.

If GW wasn't dumb, tournaments only based on comp could still be really fun events, even for the losers.

But as things stand, comp score only tournaments lend themselves way too easily to abuse.

My current FLGS recently started adding aesthetic/sportsmanship scores to their tournaments. The same competitive players still place top in scoring, but they don't bring broken netlists anymore, because that would bring down their score. The only thing that really changed is that now everyone has fun and the attendance has almost doubled.

I still consistantly place last with my shitty but fluffy army, and I'm totally okay with that now. They have been some of the most fun games of 40k that I have ever played.

>> No.28957770

>>28957741

Where in this entire thread do people talk about tabling?

Since when did you have to be tabled to not have fun?

Why am I even bothering to talk to a Tau faggot.

>> No.28957789

>>28957759
TOs don't read /tg/. TOs read boards like Dakka. You're the buttflustered shitposter who cries every time a new book is released.

>> No.28957795

>>28957762
>tfw FLGS does it right but will likely be ignored because it's not a famous GT

I hope more stores start doing it right and store owners and TOs start networking and influence a change, because right now most of the most influential TOs are just dicks who aren't helping the game to improve because they feel their event or their way of running tournaments is better and won't listen to others.

Pokemon has Nintendo's VGC and Smogon, and both are good. Since GW is far, far more unbalanced than Nintendo's rules, we desperately need a unified system like Smogon.

>> No.28957807

>>28957759
I don't care about competitive play. All I mentioned was that there are other options available. Don't sperg out at me.

>> No.28957813

>>28957789
>You're the buttflustered shitposter who cries every time a new book is released.

I should start keeping a list of blatantly false ad hominem people love to spew on /tg/.

I've also been called both a faggot from /fit/ and a fat overweight neckbeard, so it really shows how retarded it is to make assumptions on /tg/.

>> No.28957814

Is this the perfect song of a Sister of Battle falling to the ruinous powers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NhVkDTP8bo

>> No.28957829 [DELETED] 

>>28957813
epic blogpost m8

>> No.28957836

>>28957789

Hey dipshit, that entire paragraph was copy pasted from an article written by the TOs of FoB.

Man, you're so knowledgeable!

>>28957807

How about you stop shitposting and then crying about sperglords? You add literally nothing to the conversation. Your posts and thoughts are so horrid, you detract from them. Your posts are so terrible, they have NEGATIVE value. You now owe me monetary compensation for how bad and time-wasting your posts are.

>> No.28957847

>>28957762

can you explain how the "comp" works?

The aesthetic and sportsmanship thing is a great addition. I believe my FLGS does something similar. I'm still getting stuff painted up and playing with my lists.

It's hard to choose when you have 10k+ points

>> No.28957849 [DELETED] 

>>28957829

6. The quality of posts is extremely important to this community. Contributors are encouraged to provide high-quality images and informative comments

>> No.28957856

>>28957847

It's entirely subjective. If you take 3 Riptides, the judges walking around looking at the lists will knock off points from your overall comp score, causing your overall ranking to drop.

If the judge just fucking hates Eldar, you'll get docked even if you run something like Harlequins.

>> No.28957861

>>28957795
Yeah I'm really impressed with how it turned out. I've seen some similar ideas, but never as well implemented.

My old FLGS (RIP) used to run a comp score only tournament, and then a painting/sportsmanship score only tournament, rotating every other week. I feel like that was a decent idea, but it created divisions between casuals and competitive players instead of creating an event where both could have fun in their own way.

>> No.28957869 [DELETED] 

>>28957849

Not to argue, as it is definitely 4chan RAW. That being said, shitposting is 100% of /b/, 95% of /v/, and at least 40 % of /tg/

>> No.28957871 [DELETED] 

>>28957849
>>28957836
>>28957829
>>28957813
Jesus Christ is winter break ever horrible.

>> No.28957872

A Tyranid player called ForgeWorld lists the equivalent of Fandexes. Playing Mechanicum (Horus Heresy books I and II), I was both perplexed and a little offended. But he brought in the Swarmlord and the Doom on a 1k list, so I don't feel fully offended. Mostly perplexed, still a little hurt, but perplexed. The Tau player next to me was just as flabbergasted.

>> No.28957886

>>28957856
>Docking Eldar

But they're terrible

They are straight up bad

Unless something big happened recently that I missed

>> No.28957895

>>28957886
>They are straight up bad
>Unless something big happened recently that I missed

Wow.

>> No.28957923

>>28957847
I'm pretty sure it's a bracket system, or whatevers standard for 40k tournaments. I've never really payed it much attention because I'm a filthy casual and I only play tournaments to meet new people.

>> No.28957925

>>28957614

Ok on the snipers.

>>28957727

The entire squads have VRT because they all need it to benefit from Fleet.

Flamers are local metagame specific counters to conscript blobs being a favoured tactic of like half the local guard players.

Barracudas are god-like Flyers for their points. They literally carry the list more than any other units.

>> No.28957936
File: 28 KB, 800x800, Commissar Slowpoke.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28957936

>>28957886

>> No.28957943
File: 34 KB, 863x503, overall_army_stats.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28957943

>>28957886

>> No.28957957

I wish they just release all the "core" codexes first, then do addons like they used to. It would be amazing to have a balanced, playtested 40k, but minmaxing isn't going away.

The nice thing? If someone has something that isn't fun to play against, I just don't play him.

>> No.28957962

>>28957856
The way it's done at my FLGS is that the people you play against give you a ranking between the other people they played that day. So if there were three battles per person, and you were a douchebag to everyone, you would get three 3's. The judges have nothing to do with it.

For the painting, it works the same way but the judges also throw in their rankings which I'm pretty sure carry more weight

>> No.28957974

>>28957962
>The way it's done at my FLGS is that the people you play against give you a ranking between the other people they played that day.

Isn't that sportsmanship score, not comp?

>> No.28957989

>>28957943

Sauce? I'm surprised and disappointed to see Blood Angels and SoB in the tiny minority...maybe I should add a small contingent to my collection of each.

Fucking plastic SoB GW, WHEN?

>> No.28958003

>>28957974
I'm honesty not sure what we're talking about anymore.

When I said comp, I was just using it as an abbreviation for competitive. Maybe that's the source of the confusion.

>> No.28958020
File: 38 KB, 318x472, 1321214592757.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28958020

For Black Crusade, I'd like to play a character whose devotion to some aspect of the Imperial Creed caused them to fall to Chaos. How might such a character fall to each god?

Khorne
>Xenos? KILL MAIM BURN

Nurgle
>The Emperor doesn't love his children...but Nurgle does. :3

Slaanesh
>???

Tzeentch
>Knowledge is power, so man should have all of it.

Any input?

>> No.28958024

>>28957962
>The way it's done at my FLGS is that the people you play against give you a ranking between the other people they played that day. So if there were three battles per person, and you were a douchebag to everyone, you would get three 3's. The judges have nothing to do with it.

This is what I call bullshit. I've never been to a tournament that didn't have enough sperging man-children to completely throw the ability to score sportsmanship because they will rank you poorly for imagined slights while simultaneously setting the bar so low anyone who isn't one of them will seem like a saint.

I would tell the store own why their idea is bad and then not participate.

>> No.28958041

>>28958020
The just striving for perfection is what originally caused the EC to fall to slannesh, if you wanted to go that route.

>> No.28958047
File: 175 KB, 700x900, wqy9AZ2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28958047

>having a look at 2000pt daemons lists, want to get a feel for what the army's like
>most lists are a HQ and then nothing but daemonettes or screamers

I don't know how this can be fun for people, I like Daemons because of the variety of funky monsters they've got.

>> No.28958050

>>28958020
>Slaanesh
constant seeking of perfection

>> No.28958070

>>28958047
I like demons because of the massive troops I can get with AP3 swords, kills and can wound more than most things in the game on the charge.

>> No.28958072

>sitting here in my Adepticon 40k Judge's shirt
>/tg/ is trying to discuss competitive 40k again
>oh lawd here we go

Can't we just have a nice thread about how the Emperor was a faggot, a Chaos imagedump, or people wrangling for more Tyranid pics?

There are things /tg/ does well, and tournament 40k is not one of them.

>> No.28958073

>>28958024
A 0-10 scale per person would likely lead to what you're talking about, but you HAVE to rank someone 1, someone else 2, and someone else 3.

>> No.28958079

just had an escalation today, 2k Trans C'Tan vs IF/BT and tried out the new altar of war missions. Got #3 armoury of annihilation.

Crazy game, fun, tied 3-3

>> No.28958092

>>28958003

Comp is composition score. It's one of the three alternate scoring categories alongside sportsmanship and painting that aren't the major "battle point/victory point" scoring system.

>> No.28958099

>>28958072
indeed I believe they're EU kids trolling us

>> No.28958106

>>28957943
So they finally got a new Codex? I was without internet for like three months.

>> No.28958108

>>28958020
>Slaanesh
And they shall know no fear = I must show pure bravery, never relent and be the best warrior

>> No.28958109
File: 489 KB, 1487x2285, 1324513273173.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28958109

>>28958041
>>28958050

Cheers gents, that ought to have been obvious.

>> No.28958116

>>28958079
I would be interested to know how the superheavies worked in the game.

I was worried that all escalation games would turn into superheavies trading shots, and then whoever killed the other one first autowins while their mega-tank rips through the other army.

>> No.28958123

>>28958072

The only reason /tg/ doesn't do it well is because every time reasonable discussion begins casuals and ignorant posters start shitting it up.

>> No.28958135

What's the best way to run IG in a Kill Team?
My options so far:

Stormtroopers (10) 165
*Power Sword 10 (Fleet)
--Melta Gun 10 (Shrouded)
--Plasma Gun 15 (Preferred Enemy: Everything)
200

Storm Troopers (8) 133
*Power Sword 10
--Plasma Gun 15 (Preferred Enemy: Errything)
Scout Sentinel 35 (Shrouded)
--Autocannon 5
198

Veterans 70
*Power Fist 15 (Feel no Pain)
*Melta Bombs 5
--Melta Gun 10
--Plasma Gun 15 (Preferred Enemy: Errything)
--Grenadiers 30
Sentinel 35 (Shred)
--Lascannon 15
195

Veterans 70
*Sargeant Bastonne 60
--Plasma Gun 15 (Preferred Enemy: Everything)
--Heavy Flamer 20
--Sniper Rifle 5 (Shrouded)
--Grenadiers 30
200

>> No.28958138 [DELETED] 

>>28957872
They are fandexes you mouth breather

swarmlord isn't even worth his points in 1k

holy shit how retarded are you

>> No.28958140

would I be out of line for requesting some neat looking Tau Gue'vesa/Auxiliary pictures?

>> No.28958150

>>28958109
>My Hospitaller Can Be This Cute

>> No.28958155

>>28958092
Ah my bad, sorry. From what I understand the comp score is equally divided between painting, sportsmanship and victories.

>> No.28958168

>>28958123
If you were a good player, you wouldn't be posting here

>> No.28958169 [DELETED] 
File: 45 KB, 210x180, 1387434760108.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28958169

>>28958138

Reported for being total pleb. Its official, deal with it poor fag.

>> No.28958170

>>28958138
>They are fandexes you mouth breather

No they're not, they're just from Horus Heresy.

>> No.28958183
File: 135 KB, 522x546, cameltau.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28958183

>>28958140
you have my full support

>> No.28958185

>>28958168

Stop projecting, baddie. The only reason /tg/ is even as competent as it is now at competitive play in ANY /tg/-related game (and that's not very competent) is because occasionally better players do post here.

>> No.28958229

>>28958169
>>28958170

I take it someone was replying to this >>28957872
How bad was ir?

>> No.28958237

>>28958168

Tournament coverage, Faeit, blogs, forums, etc all known for solid info have quoted 4chan before. And surprising as it is, leaks have originated on /tg/ before anywhere else on the Internet.

But you're right, as soon as you step foot into /tg/, it's just so fucking terribad that you yourself become a scrubby ass loser.

>> No.28958250

>>28958185

This. You want to see a board no good players post on, go to Librarium-Online. The cult of casual is so thick there that you get reported for telling someone that a given unit is a waste of money compared to another choice.

>> No.28958258

Finally, I've wanted to ask this for days. Does Pedro Cantor still permit scoring sternguard? I want to do something like field all Scout troops, and make a Scout themed army, with only elite Power Armor dudes and Devastators. Let's play the fluff like a strike force of soldiers who are sent to brutal extremes of training, and are watched by the best of best soldiers, and leaving the Initiate Devastators be on-call fire support.

>> No.28958285

>>28958229

"Forge World isn't official because I don't want to have to spend time familiarizing myself with more units and rules and/or I can't afford it".

>> No.28958304

>>28958258
Technically they become devastator loaders. But yeah senor mexicano makes sterngaurd scoring

>> No.28958310

>>28958250

Hold onto your butts, its story time.

>> No.28958313

>>28958258

Yes he does, but only if you choose "Chapter Tactics: Imperial Fists" as your army's primary rules.

>> No.28958338
File: 18 KB, 366x380, 1263274078409.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28958338

>Insulting casual players by telling them that they're bad

>> No.28958351
File: 22 KB, 640x360, William_Murderface.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28958351

>>28958304

I'd rather chop off my ding dong than admit that 40k isn't competitive!

>> No.28958368

>>28958338
>casual players interrupting competitive discussions
>again
>for the 200th time
>and thinking they know better than more experienced and seasoned players

Nothing wrong with casual players and casual play in general, but the casuals on /tg/, and ITT in particular?

>> No.28958374

>>28958313
Well you can't take el Pedro anyway if you don't use IF chapter tactics, right?

>> No.28958385

>>28958310

The thread is about a new Chaos Marine player who wants to run Raptors and me trying to explain to him why not to. In response, Pleb Defence Force member Slayer-Fan123 writes:

You are retarded, seriously.

1. 500 points is a lot of constraints in the first place. Raptors are cheap enough for a unit at this point level with special weapons and some mobility. As the point count increases he can add and take away stuff
2. He already said that, if the store had bikes, he would purchase them. In the meantime there is no reason he cannot purchase the Raptors and get in some practice at the game.
3. Raptors aren't autolose. Warp Talons are.
4. Predators ARE excellent in low point games. You are completely and utterly wrong saying otherwise. 115 points isn't bad for what you're getting and, at around 1000 points, 4 Predators shine excellently.
5. The OP had these constraints in place and I was able to help give a basic starting list. If he feels things can be moved around, he can. You clearly weren't able to help a new guy with these constraints, so I have to ask why you bother posting?
6. By your logic I shouldn't purchase Raptors if I wanted to do conversions with their bitz.

Then I write: (cont)

>> No.28958401

>>28958338
This. It completely misses the point. Casuals don't care about good or bad because they're playing for narrative or socializing or w/e. Competitive players are actually worse than SJWs at clenching their butts tight the moment someone doesn't play for keeps, and they /make/ it a debate about 'fukken casuals shittin up mah board lrn2play skrubs :^)'

>> No.28958405

>>28958385

My response to his textual diarrhoea:

1. This is an extremely short sighted purchase that will rarely matter once his army is expanded. I also stand by the fact that any Tau, Eldar or Marine player will have enough dedicated MEQ firer power to kill them even at 500-750pts range.
2. So he made a short sighted impulse purchase like the pleb I am accusing him of being. If people keep doing stuff like this it only encourages GW not bother fixing units that are ineffective if plebs keep just buying whatever is in front of them. This is a problem in all industries, not just this one.
3. Its not just that the unit isn't great, its that its in a Fast Attack slot which has multiple other better options. Like I said in point 1 I don't give a flying you-know-what that we are talking about 500pts, it was still a sale that will effect his army composition later by either making it worse or sitting on the shelf as wasted money. Do you even understand Opportunity Cost?
4. See point 1, cost effective at low points or not its still a company shovelling out an over all suboptimal unit and making money off of pleb's inability to properly research their purchases. Again this applies to all business, not just this hobby.
5. To save him wasting money on units that might be useful now but will end up being a waste of money later. I unlike you care how other people in the middle class spend their money because the health of the economy and society is tied to this.*
6. You made a logical leap here that doesn't correspond at all. If you had no expectations of using that unit associated with your purchase that's entirely different than being lead to believe** the unit would function on the battlefield.

*Yes, I am from a socialist country.
**Ivory Tower Design. If you don't know what this term means and how it related to design philosophy you have no business talking to me like you know anything.

>> No.28958415

so just wondering, how well would it go over if I gave everything in my army that could plasma pistols? noteven in a comptetitve sense. I just wanna know how well the image of 15 or so pistoleros would even do period.

>> No.28958425

>>28958401

Prove it.

>discussion about competitive starts
>JUST DON'T PLAY COMPETITIVE
>PLAY CASUAL LOLFAGGOT AUTISTS

Yeah fuck you. No one said shit about casual play, you faggots brought it up.

>> No.28958428

>>28958401

No you are missing the point that CASUALS ARE SHITTING UP DISCUSSION SPECIFICALLY ABOUT COMPETITIVE PLAY!

>> No.28958438

>>28958425
The post that started this whole thing was literally about wanting everyone at a tournament to have fun.

>> No.28958440

>>28958425
>Competitive players allowed the whole thread to be derailed by one comment which also said that if you like competitive, continue playing that's ok
Stay classy, autist.

>> No.28958449

>>28958415

The problems with plasma pistol are they are short range, they get hot (not a problem if you are BS4 3+ MEQ or something but if you're BS3 and/or shitty armor it can be a problem with too many plasma weapons), and they cost a lot of points.

If they were free, then MAYBE they'd be kinda not completely shitty...sorta.

>> No.28958450

>>28958304
I mean that the Devastators themselves are the initiates, well above the Scout/Neophyte level. The scouts are more in the level that they can face enemies by opportunity. Those that survive countless battles surely move onto grafting the black carapace, and equip Power Armor as Devastator Initiates. Certainly this would skip over the in betweens, but let's also say this chapter has seen very catastrophic losses in bodies due to extreme bravado.

>> No.28958462

>>28958428
40k General Anonymous 12/18/13(Wed)22:57 UTC-8 No.28957225
!

Last thread died;

Discuss your lists, showoff your models, talk about fluff. This is the place to be.

>> No.28958469

>>28957872
>show up at a 750pt. "beginner friendly" tournament at a new LGS in my area
>when I get there, they didn't anticipate needing more tables so they made it 2v2s
>okay.jpg
>Me and another IG player against two Tyranid players
>between the two of them they decided to bring 3 flying hive tyrants and a tervigon
>pepper their bare minimum termagants units with lasgun fire
>ignore flyrant as I'm running MSU
>tarpit tervigon with sentinels and other IG player's blob for the lulz
>actually have objectives by the time the end of turn 5 rolls around
>omfg ig force org bullshit

Yeah I hope their codex gets rewritten into something other than "Flying Hive Tyrants, Doom of Malantai, Tervigons"

>> No.28958471

>>28958438

And what does that have to do with casual play? It's specifically discussing tournament play.

If I want to make trips to the dentist fun, "lol just don't go to the dentist" is not a valid response.

>> No.28958490

>>28958462

Then start your own casual topic instead of directing them towards the competitive posts, idiot.

It works both ways, if "muh general" allows you to post about casual, then competitive posts are also allowed, idiot.

>> No.28958512

>>28958469

Doom of Malan'tai got removed.

>> No.28958513

>>28958415
Well plasma pistols are pretty shitty. Most models that can take one will only get to take one shot a game, and that's not really worth 15 pts.

They shine on units that operate within 12" of other units, but don't risk getting charged IMO. The only unit that I can think of that does that is icon'd plague marines, and even then fear isn't super great.

>> No.28958522

>>28958490
I see you keep on making angry posts instead of posts about competitive play. Here's a hint: instead of feeding your burning autism and trying to win internet debates, just talk about what you want to talk about and ignore the responses you don't like. Grow up.

>> No.28958536

>>28958469

Has it occurred to you that as the Flying Hive Tyrant is the only good Tyranid HQ its the only HQ model they have you fucking idiot? 750pts isn't actually what people build their army around and if they planned out and bought a 1750 or 2000 point army it would be the model they bought and how they built the kit.

>> No.28958538

>>28958522

Master fisher.

>> No.28958545

>>28958405
>>28958385
You both sound like cunts.

>> No.28958553

>>28958522

What you see is faggots that keep shitposting. Nobody would make angry posts directed at nothing.

>telling people to grow up

Where the fuck do you think you are, dipshit? We ignored quest threads and look where that got us.

>> No.28958565

>>28958545

I only got so worked up because this idiot was actually trying to convince the guy to go out and spend money on units that were shit when the person specifically asked for help making a competitive list worth his money.

>> No.28958572

>>28958513
>>28958449
I suspected something along these lines,

Maybe I'll just keep the idea as something to try with captains or simply for modeling.

Would definitely be nice if you could see a ruleset for dual pistols that were functionally the moritat from the heresy rulebooks.

>> No.28958577
File: 49 KB, 400x594, 1302359022530.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28958577

>>28958553
Keep up the crusade, anon. Carpal-tunnel bands might help. I don't know why you're even complaining, since you clearly enjoy responding to posts you don't like over talking about the thing you claim to want to talk about.

>> No.28958582

The funny part is this all started from a reasonable proposition about the current state of the game.

So what does that really say about the participants in this discussion?

Even for casual play, just ignoring it is a terrible solution. Certain people can only play at shops filled with competitive players, so refusing games would mean you probably only get half as many games as you should normally get, if any.

>> No.28958583
File: 53 KB, 697x791, 1386813952087.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28958583

>>28958553
Jesus, you're angry. Over nothing. Calm down.

>> No.28958595

>>28958572

What I do is I simply replace any model that has a bolter or a chainsword + bolt pistol with two bolt pistols and then just say they count as bolters/chainswords.

We do have gunslinger rules it's just that every dual pistol model in 40k sucks dick. Maybe not Cypher, I'm unfamiliar with his rules.

>> No.28958606

>>28958536
>Has it occurred to you that as the Flying Hive Tyrant is the only good Tyranid HQ its the only HQ model they have you fucking idiot?

Yeah actually, I do. Hence why I hope they get something else "viable." Monobuild books aren't fun for anyone involved. Although the thing that really ignored me was their bitching about my "bullshit amount of units" when it just boiled down to them refusing to take anything more than the bare minimum of troops.

>> No.28958612

>>28958583
>u mad

What is this, 2011?

>> No.28958620

>>28958595
>Maybe not Cypher,
he doesn't even have a dataslate.
best you can do with cypher is buy/convert a model for him and match up all the rules for him in the codexed army you choose to use him in.

>> No.28958628

>>28958620
>he doesn't even have a dataslate.

You know he's getting one right?

>> No.28958629
File: 1.27 MB, 1785x2297, 1385631567603.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28958629

>>28958572
I still take 'em anyway on my vet sarges, for fluff reasons. 9 times out of 10 they do nothing or kill him, but they have been game changing before.

>mfw I've popped a LRBT with a last man standing sarge, leading to me winning the game

>> No.28958645

>>28958629

If you're that close to a LRBT just assault a billion krak grenades at the rear AV. They're free, and even more useful as a thrown attack than a plasma pistol.

>> No.28958650

>>28958628
not to sound douche-y, but I'm gonna need some evidence.

>> No.28958663

>>28958645
Not him, but that's not as awesome sounding.
Practical yes, Badass no

>> No.28958682

>>28958582

Looks what it says about the state of the game as well.

I honestly think there is no single solution.

The problem with house rules is that it puts the game on the same level as D&D in terms of "Well I've spent the last 3 years playing with these house rules; I can't/wont adapt easily to a new group of players" . If anything it would be worst in 40k because money spend on purchasing specific units is involved.

The problem with playing RAW is it will lead to a lot of unfun hard-countered in the list building / opponent seeding phase games. Not even just tournament play but in leauges and lgs pick up games too.

The problem with blanket exclusions is some armies need the new stuff to be relevant at all compared to others without it. IMO This is the core of why I allow all FW stuff. Because that Ork/Marine players needs it to not be total shit or to be able to run a list other than their codexes mono-list.

Honestly I would just play more DZC if more people in my area played it, I have one opponent.

>> No.28958685

>>28958135
Youll want more than 10 models as IG cause you cant afford to lose those morale checks.

Ive had a friend use a list similar to (im doing this off the top of my head, forgive some incorrect point values):

Platoon command squad - 40
*missile launcher - 15
*relentless

Guardsman squad - 60
*missile launcher - 15
*relentless

Guardsman squad - 60
*autocannon - 10

>> No.28958691
File: 185 KB, 500x504, Calendar full.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28958691

>>28958650

>> No.28958708

>>28958645
>>28958663
Yeah I know there is literally always a better option than a plas pistol for the points, I'm one of the anons that said so earlier.

But IMO space marine veterans are the best of the best of the best of the best and some should have what's considered in-universe the best equipment. Plus, that game was 3 years ago and we still talk about how awesome it was.

>> No.28958710

>>28958629

>Thinking you should ever take Vet Sergeants

I got bad news for you...

>> No.28958727
File: 40 KB, 300x400, cypher.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28958727

>>28958650

Rumor has been floating around for a while

h

WS-7
BS-8
S-5
T-5
W-3
I-7
A-3
Ld-10
S 2+
Artificer armour, Master crafted Bolt pistol and Plasma pistol, Frag and Krak grenades, C'tan Knife.

Independent Character, Deep Strike, Eternal Warrior, Hit&Run, Fleet.

C'tan Knife
Melee weapon, bearer's S, AP 3, Instant Death"

>> No.28958729

>>28958385
>Raptors, competitive lists, etc

Weirdly, I actually played a guy at Feast of Blades who had 30 Raptors in his Invitational list. Absolutely crushed him, but still. Talking with him he was planning it as a MEQ-rush counter to the Tau firepower builds (who don't handle 3+ armor super well, it's just usually irrelevant), but I wasn't playing that so he got his shit pushed in.

I think he actually went 4-3 through the tournament, so it must have worked against somebody.

also, inb4
>holy shit someone on /tg/ that actually attends real GTs

>> No.28958733

>>28958682
>The problem with house rules is that it puts the game on the same level as D&D in terms of "Well I've spent the last 3 years playing with these house rules; I can't/wont adapt easily to a new group of players" . If anything it would be worst in 40k because money spend on purchasing specific units is involved.


Yeah, this would ultimately only make the community worse.

>> No.28958744

>>28958727

This thing is an outright fake (it's been floating for over a year), but yes, he's getting a Dataslate.

>> No.28958755

>>28958691
Huh, well that sounds pretty awesome.

Betting he has Eternal Warrior and eternal warrior.

or maybe a preexisting set of rules updated for 6e. I'm not familiar with whatever he had before losing his special character status

>> No.28958762

>>28958691
I can't read anything other than the Killteam HALLELUJAH! and blood in the snow. What are the others?

>> No.28958763

>>28958710
It was 5th ed. You could still pop tanks with a 6 on the glancing table, and vet sarges were standard.

But yeah vet sarges suck, which is dumb. At least chapter masters/captains are actually major badasses now, so I'm happy.

>> No.28958785

>>28958744

Yeah, that was from back in 2010. Still, I'm glad to see him getting a new model. I'd like them to bring back Naaman as well. Just found a model of him on ebay for 4 bucks, pretty stoked about getting him fixed up (missing a sword, just pinned a new one).

>> No.28958787

>>28958727
>>28958744
I don't even play Dark Angels or Chaoas but I'm curious whether he can be taken in either or is exclusive to either army.

>> No.28958796

>>28958682
That's why you don't exclude, you limit. I think Feast has probably the best answer to how retarded competitive 40k has become in that they're not allowing faction supplements to ally with their parent books (ie Farsight - Tau), limiting the number of Mastery Levels per army, so go fuck yourself Seer Council, and banning the GoTN, so throw the Screamerstar out the window.

Seriously, they've taken the 3 hardest power lists in 40k and essentially cut them off at the knees and I think it's the perfect answer.

>> No.28958801

>>28958733

I really really want to watch the 40k community devolve into this just to /tg/ can have shit fit threads about house rules at their LGC/LGS

>> No.28958819

Is it true almost any Sci-fi story can fit into 40k?

>> No.28958821

>>28958787

He has been seen leading tons of different forces, trying to make the imperium stronger by giving them constant conflict, according to some.

As a dataslate, I believe anyone could take him.

I hope he has a special rule where if you kill him as a Dark Angel player you auto win.

>> No.28958826

>>28958801
Every tournament is going to have its own rules, which is really the only way to go. It keeps each tourney scene fresh, lets them develop a distinct feel and flavor, and cuts down on uber-lists trampling all over everyone else.

I hope every tournament starts using a comp system.

>> No.28958832

>>28958819

A million worlds, many undiscovered, some trapped in warp storms through time and space.

>> No.28958840

>>28958821
>As a dataslate, I believe anyone could take him.

The other Special Character dataslate (Be'lakor) was only for CSM/Daemons, so its 99.99999999% likely that Cypher will be restricted to just a few armies (either DA or Chaos, maybe both) as well.

>> No.28958851

>>28958819
>>28958819

Nothing involving the intelligent application of available resource.

>> No.28958853

>>28958821
>I hope he has a special rule where if you kill him as a Dark Angel player you auto win.
to darn cheap, maybe make him worth two victory points.

>> No.28958861

>>28957589
used go to a torney in Canberra years ago and the thing was practically said no cheese and most points of the points could be made in painting comp and sportsmanship

>> No.28958869

>>28958840
I just mean in terms of his fluff. He has backed all kinds of random shit to further his own means.

>>28958853
Yeah, something along those lines sounds pretty reasonable.

>> No.28958875

>>28958796

I was at Feast this year, and I know some of the guys who run it from encountering them at other GTs.

They will back off those ludicrous comp restrictions. They have no choice. Case-by-case comp-bans like that have no place in 40k, and will alienate the fuck out of their attendees if they don't.

Basically, if they run that shit at Feast 2014, they'll get attendance from people who already planned to go plus a handful of rage-fucks going "YEAH FUCK THOSE LISTS." Feast 2015 will then be a smoking crater because of what a nightmare Feast 2014 will have turned out to be.

>> No.28958877

>>28958861

Why not just be honest and call it a model display social?

>> No.28958911

>>28958685
Thanks. I'll keep that squad in mind. Maybe run those Deth Korps models after all.

>> No.28958917

>>28958875
I was there too and honestly I hope you're not surprised when a lot of them stay. One thing I've noticed from the majority of competitive players is that they're unabashed bandwagoners, they don't care about codex loyalty or preferring one faction.

Whatever wins, they play, and if the rules change they change armies with them.

>have no place in 40k

They have every place. This kind of shit is starting to damage the competitive scene in a way a lot of players and TOs find unacceptable, and even if they change a few things there will still be modifications to what you can and can't bring, it's inevitable.

I bet you any amount of imaginary money that the death of the 2++ armies will make every single tournament worldwide more competitive, more balanced and more exciting for everyone involved.

>> No.28958919

>>28958875

If these people have the money to take time off work and fly/drive out the tournament for a few days they have enough money to not be alienated when they need to change their list.

if they still throw a shit fit over it well that's fine too, I hope the community destroys itself. Either way not limiting OP no fun allowed builds will kill the 40k on its own.

>> No.28958923

>>28958875

I kind of prefer mono lists. Allies as they are don't make a lot of sense to me from a fluff perspective.

>> No.28958941

>>28958923
Banning Allies IS the way to kill 40k.

>> No.28958962
File: 37 KB, 230x331, 1387444149227.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28958962

>>28958832
So if almost any sci-fi can fall under the 40k universe where does that leave Akira? Is Akria the first incarnation of the god emperor? If so what does that make Tetsuo?

>> No.28958976

>>28958941

Doesn't the only real point of allying just encourage cheese though? Is cheese fun? I remember when leafblower guard parking lots were the norm, and that was about when I stopped playing competitively since it just wasn't fun to play against with a fluffy list.

>>28958962
Maybe a chaos worshipper.

>> No.28958993

>>28958976
>Doesn't the only real point of allying just encourage cheese though?
No, and if you honestly think that you're not even worth talking to.

>> No.28958997

>>28958976
You can selectively gut the really bad cheese, though.

The most abusive Allies I find now is DE/Eldar, revolving around the Baron + Seer Council.

Taudar can be nasty, but considering there's nothing Eldar give Tau that MOAR MARKERLIGHTS can't add it's not a huge deal.

>> No.28959008

>>28958917

Then you're incredibly short-sighted. Removing Screamerstar and Seer Council does not make 40k balanced, it just drops it down to the next-most-broken thing.

Guess who then eats all the shit for allowing the "next most broken" thing to win? The organizers, since they were already putting themselves in the position of banning stuff and crafting the playing field. They put themselves in the position to be absolutely shit on, and they'll deserve it.

It's a lose-lose from a TO's perspective. Everyone will view them as biased, favoritist idiots who allowed X list to win. Everyone except the guy who wins will come away bitching that they shouldn't have allowed his list, or that they should have allowed some other list (which, in retrospect, wasn't NEARLY as broken as his list, obviously!), etc etc etc into infinity.

It's an objectively horrific decision for them to make, solely in regard to their health of their event.

Also, in case you're not aware, Screamerstar (despite infinity internet rage) has won zero major GTs. The current Seer Council/Baron hybrid is a newcomer by comparison, but it's only won a single minor GT.

Basic, no-gimmick Eldar/Tau lists are the things winning actual tournaments. Hilariously, they'll be completely untouched by those comp restrictions.

>> No.28959018

>>28957795
The bad thing is that a Smogon 40k thing would simply tell everyone to use certain sets.

>> No.28959033

>>28959008 cont.

And speaking of short-sighted: they're planning comp bans for a tournament that doesn't occur for 11 months. It's retarded.

Tyranids alone could turn this whole thing on its head. If Shadow in the Warp is in any way a real threat to Psykers, in a way that can be reliably imposed in a tournament setting, Seer Councils and Screamerstars will already have their counter, without some idiots trying to think up half-assed ways to "fix" the game.

>> No.28959055

>>28959033 cont. cont.

and by "Screamerstars and Seer Councils will have their counter," I obviously meant "other than just playing around them, like every smart tournament player already does, which is why they haven't won any major GTs yet."

>> No.28959056

>>28958993
For example, Dark Angels are allowed to ally with...Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Tau...which is ridiculous. They shouldn't ally with anything other than core imperial forces, and they are not allowed to ally with lists that include abhumans.

There are too many combinations that don't make sense from a background perspective. As I see it, it's just a way for GW to get people to branch out into new model ranges.

I'd prefer that they back the Heralds of Ruin killteam rules and do it that way. I'd much rather play 250-500 point games of different armies than have random attached forces.

>> No.28959060

>>28959055
>other than playing around them

Which, funny enough, is only possible by Tau/ Eldar armies.

>> No.28959071

>>28959056
You're being narrowminded.

Odd army combos like that happen regularly in the fluff, and the fact that they don't trust each other is reflected by the fact that they don't have an optimal Ally status with those armies like they would with most Imperial armies.

>> No.28959097

>>28958877

The problem isn't even tournaments. The problem is min/max WAAC tournament players.

Why CAN'T we have a casual get together with Swiss rounds/bracketed matches and rankings and winners and trophies and prizes?

Why CAN'T we have a 40K tournament that's NOT competitive-minded (all tournaments will be competitive by inherent definition, but you all know exactly what I mean).

>> No.28959106

>>28959071

It's more of a flavor thing, really. I want to face an ork horde or a chaos warband, not someone running parts of eldar and tau and who knows what else with FOC shuffling and dataslates.

>> No.28959113
File: 2.10 MB, 3264x2448, IMG_3094.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28959113

Rolled 3, 1 = 4

WAAAAAGGGHHHHH

>> No.28959131

>>28958993

No major tournament player who wanted to win a tournament has EVER used allies as a fluff asset. Allies as they are now are just more cheesy bullshit so you can have 5 different factions in one army.

If you just wanted allies for fluff YOU COULD HAVE DONE THAT WITHOUT ALLIES RULES IN THE FIRST PLACE since friendly games are encouraged to have rule modifications as stated by the rulebook itself.

If you want a fun fluffy army list for fun games only, not tournaments, YOU DON'T NEED ALLIES IN 40K. YOU COULD ALREADY MAKE ALLIED LISTS IN 5E BY JUST TAKING TWO ARMIES AND MASHING THEM TOGETHER.

>> No.28959132

>>28959060

Necrons actually still excel at it, it's just that Necrons take a hit pretty hard from those normal Tau/Eldar armies (which, again, nobody is designing comp restrictions for, because it's borderline impossible).

Your normal, everyday Necron Air Force list from 8 months ago is effectively immune to both the Seer Council and the Screamerstar, excels at fucking their weak Troops, and hiding their own until it's time to party.

It's hard for Necrons to make a real dramatic comeback as long as people are dumping token Skyfire onto their Riptides (though Broadsides are practically going extinct, which helps), but you still see them now and then as a spoiler, and they do it well.

>> No.28959133

>>28959097

When I ran narrative, year long tournaments, everything was fluff based. You deployed so many troops, permadeath, reinforcements, and so on.

We had an overworld map, and took photos of battlegrounds so we could recreate certain key battlefields the same way every time.

Characters and squads leveled up, and so on. It was a ton of fun.

>> No.28959142

>>28959131
>No major tournament player who wanted to win a tournament has EVER used allies as a fluff asset.

Welllllll no shit sherlock, nobody bases winning tournament armies off fluff in the first place.

>> No.28959144

>>28959018

We already all use the same wargear loadouts.

When have you seen a Hive Tyrant that wasn't wings, brainleech, devourers etc? A chapter master that wasn't shield eternal, artificer, etc

>> No.28959159

>>28959142

So why do tournament rules need allies?

>> No.28959163

>>28959159
Why don't they?

>> No.28959175

I can talk about Dark Heresy in this thread, right?
It doesn't have to just be wargame tournament bullshit?

Because holy shit my game has been going great and I need to gush about it. The GM knows how to play to every character's strengths and weaknesses and mixes just enough heroics in with the screaming and running away that those moments of greatness feel amazing.

This chapter's themes are "techno-horror, sentience, subjective holiness, the Imperium's oppression, and the horrors of true freedom of thought, both human and AI" and have I said yet how great that is?

>> No.28959176

>>28959159
By that logic, we should just outright ban everything that isn't the top 5 or so armies in the game, and ban all suboptimal wargear choices, because people aren't using them to win the event anyway so why bother having them.

>> No.28959214

>>28959163

Because it's just more min/max bullshit that adds nothing except more cheese.

>> No.28959227

>>28959175

compared to sentience, techno-horror is OP, I move that we ban techno-horror from next year's Dark Heresey tournaments

>> No.28959229

>>28959176

Your logic is wrong. The correct strawman to make would be to ban the top 5 armies and ban all the optimal wargear, because the entire purpose of questioning allies is to remove the best allies, not the worst ones.

>> No.28959253

If you're going to ban this or that or ban Escalation or Forge World, why NOT ban allies?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/12/40k-editorial-why-are-allies-sacred.html

I know it's from BoLS, but still.

>> No.28959271

>>28959214

I know you're not someone who actually attends tournaments and are instead just standing on the sidelines throwing dogshit at the big boys, but:

Despite all the bitching, allies have actually been incredible for tournament play. It's added waaaaay more variety to lists than 5th ever had. While you can say "Tau/Eldar are winning everything" and mostly be right, there are a fuckton of differences between Player A's Tau/Eldar army and Player B's Tau/Eldar army, at least by comparison to the "oh, so, you only have 6 Hammers in your Paladin units? that's shocking and absurd" situation we had at the end of 5th. And comparing an Eldar/Tau army (which won NOVA, and was somewhat a shock at the time) to a Tau/Eldar army, they look practically nothing alike.

Pre-Tau, Necrons dominated the whole meta, but even then we got to see things like Necrons/Orks spring up to win a GT and be a huge surprise, since practically everyone was running Necrons/CSM or pure Necrons at the time.

Basically, 40k will always have one or two power Codexes, but having the option to blend them with a dozen other Codexes allows for so much more variety that new things pop up all the time. We don't see the same list literally copy/pasted through the top ranks of every tournament like we did for the vast majority of 5th.

>> No.28959278

>>28959227
On behalf of the Mechanicus I would like to request that you go fuck yourself.

Everyone knows that it's Freedom of Thought that's OP, anyway. Seriously who even thought that power was a good idea?

>> No.28959294

I think it's more about having fun while giving the opponent a fun game. Years of GM'ing gave me a perspective that has translated into adult life that the little time I get to play 40k is fun regardless of how well I do.

>> No.28959327

>>28959278

freedom of thought is too core to ban, you'll ruin the whole game

deal with it casualfag

>> No.28959330

>>28959253

why does everyone hate BoLS anyway?

is it just usual /tg/ butt hurt or what?

>> No.28959358

>>28959327
Too core to ban my ass, I bet you're a Chaos player.

>> No.28959369

>>28959330

Nah, everyone hates BoLS. The guys who run it are outright dicks.

Any time you give any shred of "fame" or "power," even pretend internet fame/power, to neckbeards, shit goes downhill fast.

Anybody who's ever met them at an event will attest to this. At Adepticon last year, I saw Darkwynn tell one of the judges he didn't have to listen to him because he didn't know the guy, and demanded he get a judge he knew personally to make a "fair" decision.

>> No.28959380

>>28959271

Except 5th was far more balanced in terms of competitive play, you mongoloid.

>> No.28959398

>>28959369
wow Jesus really?

they come across as self righteous in their articles, but they are that self obsessed in real life too?

>> No.28959400

>>28959380

Well, yeah, Grey Knights vs. Grey Knights was super duper balanced.

Balance is pretty simple when everyone's playing the same Codex, amirite, blinded-by-nostalgiafag?

>> No.28959402

>>28959271

I'll take you seriously when you can learn how to:

1. Not resort to ad hominem.
2. Treat all responses equally instead of singling out mine, which was made in response to far more numerous and asinine posts.
3. Learn what Devil's Advocate is.
4. Learn what context is.

>> No.28959420

>>28959400
>Balance is pretty simple when everyone's playing the same Codex

That is exactly what balance is, idiot. There's a reason chess pieces all do the same thing.

>> No.28959421

>>28959398

Yep. It's lesser known (because the game wasn't broadcast and only a tiny handful of people were watching) and I kinda risk doxing myself by pointing it out, but Goatboy was openly talking over the final championship game at Feast of Blades (basically as taboo as you get at a 40k tournament), to the degree of pointing out a rules mistake made by Darkwynn's opponent, to Darkwynn's advantage.

That's not the kinda shit you do, ever, under any circumstances. Anyone else would have been straight-up kicked the fuck out for even talking loudly near a championship game, let alone saying shit that affects the outcome of the game.

>> No.28959430

>>28959420

Then I'm glad we have found common ground, and I wish you luck in returning to the idyllic paradise of 5th Edition, GKfriend.

>> No.28959432

>>28959421
Why do they get away with it then? are the TO's scared of their fan bases?

>> No.28959455

>>28959402

Really, >>28957813 ?

You're still shitting up this thread?

Man, 40k tournament threads really bring out the best in /tg/.

>> No.28959474

>>28959271

If the primary codex detachment is not varied or competitive enough that you are forced to cherry pick from two or more books, then that is already indicative of a problem with the game.

>> No.28959488

>>28959455

Yeah bro, check out all my posts:

https://archive.foolz.us/tg/search/text/ad%20hominem/

I'm not surprised YOU'RE still here shitting up this thread, though. People like you who spout bullshit like calling out samefags incorrectly tend to spam the same stupid posts indefinitely.

>> No.28959492

>>28959432

FoB's "feature" game was split off into a different room, because it was being recorded (but not streamed, no idea what the recording was for).

Because of that, it was actually a secondary judge watching the table, and I think he was just afraid/in awe/too much of a pussy to put them in their place. The main judge was out on the tournament floor with the other 400+ players.

In a normal tournament I'd say that's an objectively terrible decision (not having your head judge at the championship game) but FoB does the "bracket winners" thing, so there were actually tons of meaningful games happening back in the main room, so I can kinda understand.

It was still fucking shameful to watch. You could tell the judge on site knew he fucked up by not stopping it sooner when Goatboy started interfering with the game, though, but he was in too deep to go back.

>> No.28959505

>>28959421

I never liked Goatboy's opinions, articles, or his art, but I don't care enough to know that he is associated with BoLS.

>> No.28959514

>>28959474

Well, yeah, 40k is inherently broken and nowhere near perfect yadda yadda.

The way the competitive scene always works is that there's 2-3 competitive books, and 10-12 shit books that nobody ever runs.

The difference is, in 6th Edition, you sometimes see those shit books represented as cherry-picked allies, which is better than not at all. It also means you see way more variety in what's representing those 2-3 good Codexes.

>> No.28959519

Why does 40k bring out the worst in people?
>2k tournament (with double foc) at local gaming club
>none of my friends can come because of exams and shit, go alone with a bladestorm Eldar list with 1 of every aspect except for howling banshees and the plane
>took a falcon instead of a waveserpent because WS are fucking gay
>arrive, immediately one of the players asks me how many wraithknights I brought
>none, as I'm not a faggot and only take gay space elves in tight suits, a falcon and a wraithlord
>start playing first game, start losing horribly because I have a poorly constructed list (which I knew beforehand) and hadn't played 40k for a while
>near the end of the game I look up, suddenly see 5 pretzels on another table
>in shock, look up who's playing and it's a really friendly guy who usually takes nice lists
>horrified I look at the other tables
>over the course of the day I found out that at least 6 out of 14 lists were 'extremely fucking gay would rather punch myself in the dick than play'
>get ravaged every game 20-1
>Still not last because I decently painted half my army and got maximum sportmanship points

>> No.28959524

Is it so radical to think of something like digital codexes allowing constant balancing?

>> No.28959530

>>28959488

Yeah yeah, actually talking about tournament 40k from experience sure is shitting up what has primarily become a tournament 40k thread.

We need more people like you, sharing ideas like "lol y even allies then?" to enlighten us.

>> No.28959533
File: 30 KB, 512x384, beermarine.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28959533

>>28959133
Oh hell yeah. Casual tournaments more or less equal campaigns IMO. Since last fall I've played in 3 campaigns and had fun in all of them. If you haven't played in one yet, I would definitely go for it if you have the time/community available.

First one was a broad Mighty Empires (I think that's what it's called, the hex-tile maps) based one with all the players of a particular faction (Imperials, Orks, Chaos, Crons, etc.) forming a team that would work together for placing of flags. Worked alright, but the rules for taking an opponent's capital were annoying (had to defeat that faction's players, even if they never showed up) and the fact that when a new codex dropped your side starting getting hammered with losses due to new book fumbles, resulting in your faction getting kicked out despite individually going near undefeated overall. 5/10

Campaign 2: Planetstrike edition, was roughly based on the Crusade of Fire book. Faction teams, but individual flags. This solved issues of certain players tanking your whole team allowing stronger players (like me) to still remain at least on the board. Rules for attacking other planets = almost always planetstrike. I got so fed up defending on planetstrike I just broke out maximum cheese b/c after your 10th of so Planetstrike defence in a row, you just want to give the finger to your opponent. Still had fun though despite maximum STEHL REHN. 6/10

The last one I was in was run through a Facebook page where everyone could find games against other players, talk trash, post their weekly status, etc. It was an escalating campaign that went up by 500pts each week (up to 2k) until you had an apoc game (up to 4k per person) in the fifth week for the climactic showdown between the major players. Instead of holding territory, it was a treasure hunt. You even had to keep the same HQ + 1 Troop choice throughout all your lists, so it brought a bit of longer strategy to the campaign. 10/10 would play again.

>> No.28959536

>>28959455

I'll stop "shitting it up" when people stop posting ad hominem.

And really, what did your post contribute to the conversation?

>> No.28959539

>>28959519
>I'm not a faggot and only take gay space elves in tight suits, a falcon and a wraithlord
made my night

>> No.28959555

>>28959536
But it's not ad hominem, it's an insult.

>> No.28959561

>>28959519

The question is, were those people actually being dicks to you? Or did they just beat you?

I mean, every hobby has dicks, so I won't say they weren't, but it's not the standard.

Lots of people go to local tournaments to practice for bigger tournaments. It's not like they demanded to play against you once they saw you had a sub-par list, or built their lists knowing they'd face your sub-par list. They brought what they did, and you brought what you did.

>> No.28959565

>>28959530
>We need more people like you, sharing ideas like "lol y even allies then?" to enlighten us.

Are you implying this isn't preferable to

>>28957692
>>28957732
>>28957741
>>28957744
>>28957789
>>28957807
>>28957886
>>28957957

And like 40 other posts that are equally worthless and shitty?

At the very least, challenging the legitimacy of a newly introduced core rule like allies made you think the tiniest bit about what they added to the game. Frankly it should have made you think about much more in terms of what should and shouldn't be in tournaments and why, but I know you will just deny it because god forbid anyone challenge what YOU think should be in the game or not.

>> No.28959576

>>28959555

Bro insults are just ad hominem with the barrage rule.

>> No.28959592

>>28959533
>beer god

Isn't beer just yeast and shit? Nurgle is the beer god, stupid.

>> No.28959601

>>28959576
Only if the barrage is being used to fire indirectly.

>> No.28959622

>>28959536

an FYI, I stopped responding to you after my "throwing dogshit" wall-o-text up there, because I honestly don't think you have anything meaningful to add to the conversation (or were attempting to in the first place)

You're arguing with stand-in trolls, at this point.

>> No.28959640

>>28958368
> but the casuals on /tg/, and ITT in particular?
A few days ago someone here told me that Orks need the old choppas back because Terminators are too strong. I thought I was on drugs or something.

>> No.28959649

>>28959561
Nope, they weren't dicks. The club is actually rather casual, and is known for being a place where people mostly bring non-competitive lists. I luckily only had to play one awful list (and the scenario was completely in his favour as well), but I had a great game that day chatting with opponents and fellow club members during the day.
There's like 3 tournament players at the club, and 2 of them couldn't come, which kinda makes it worse as then it would have been 8/16.

You know, the worst part is that the majority (though there is an overlap between douchebags and asshole lists) is pretty friendly and casual. And then they put down the most minmaxed list possible with their army.

>> No.28959684

>>28959622

Bragging about credibility on /tg/ of all places makes you the most pathetic person in this thread, so good job.

>> No.28959691

>>28959565

Are you saying those are bad posts?

>> No.28959699

>>28959640

Well at least he's half right in that Ork assault and Orks in general need some kind of buff or update.

>mfw sooo many people still think marines and terminators are good

I want to know where they play because apparently I'm in the one corner of the world that's sane.

>> No.28959712

>>28959691

Bad is subjective. I implied that they were less relevant to the conversation/furthering the discussion.

I did call them shitty, though, so I guess you could say that.

>> No.28959719

>>28959684

>credibility
>4chan

'kay

Just trying to stop an ever-growing whirlpool of trolls-trolling-trolls from enveloping the thread, but whatever interpretation works for you.

>> No.28959727

>>28959691

"Eldar isn't a good army" is about as bad as a post can get.

>> No.28959730

>>28959712

Meh, this is a 40k general. It doesn't have to be a giant circle jerk of discussing the finer points of tournament balance

>> No.28959737

>>28959719
>Just trying to stop an ever-growing whirlpool of trolls-trolling-trolls from enveloping the thread

Bullshit.

>> No.28959755

>>28959730

No, it doesn't. Except all those posts were in direct response to that one specific discussion.

It's one thing to post "Tournaments suck", it's another to respond directly to a tournament discussion with something like "Riptides aren't OP, you guys should just refuse games, stop being bad" which is posted A LOT on /tg/, and in direct response to tournament discussion to boot.

>> No.28959781

>>28959649

I think you're arriving at the exact same disconnect the vast majority of /tg/ (as non-competitive players) has, but you're at least taking the time to consider it rather than screaming "RAAAAA NETLIST FAGGOTS RUINING THE HOBBY FOR EVERYONE FOREVER TOURNAMENTS ARE THE CANCER KILLING 40K," which is closer to the usual response around here.

Here's where I think that disconnect occurs, and since you say you actually like most of these dudes, it might help you undersand their motives:

They don't bring minmaxed lists to shit on your list. They probably didn't enjoy that any more than you did. They bring minmaxed lists to play against the other minmaxed lists, because that competitive challenge is what makes the game fun for them.

And when competitive challenge is what makes the game fun, things will always naturally drive to the top 1% of what's viable, because that's the only place to insure they'll find those games that they find fun. Sure, they could have brought a list like yours, and that would have made the game against YOU competitively challenging, but they couldn't guarantee that everyone would show up with a mid-tier list to allow for that.

They bring the hard lists because they know others will bring the hard lists, and that's where they can have their fun.

Yes, that may be different than the way you have fun in 40k, but it doesn't make it wrong, even if that's practically /tg/'s motto in regard to competitive 40k.

>/tg/
>specializing in telling people they're having fun the wrong way since 1892

>> No.28959816

>>28959781
>>28959781
Pretty sure that /v/ is still better at that

>> No.28959818

>>28958877
not far from what it was but it was 2 days of hanging with 40k players that weren't been sperg lords and having some fun with a sausage sizzle in for lunch and beers after. had some great games and ran a nice mixed ground pounding word bearers

>> No.28959874

>>28959699
>Well at least he's half right in that Ork assault and Orks in general need some kind of buff or update.

Yeah, but his "fix" would not actually help in any way. I'm all for making assault viable, I run 40 Hormagaunts, but making Orks ignore the armors the break through with weight of dice anyway just does not achieve anything.

>I want to know where they play because apparently I'm in the one corner of the world that's sane.

Im convinced they are just incredibly shitters that got stomped by smashfucker and his biker gang, and are now shitposting.

>> No.28959891

>>28959816

/v/ moves so fast nowadays I wonder how people even judge whether or not it's shit.

>> No.28959900

>>28959874

Tourneyfag here: I've still never actually see a Smashfuck in real life. I think it's just a dream cooked up by /tg/ and Warseer (oh how rarely do those dreams align).

It's inherently a competitive-minded list choice, but anyone who knows anything about playing competitively knows Smashfuck would get his fucks all smashed by the other competitive lists right now, so it never actually comes to be.

>> No.28959906

>>28959891

It's all terrible on /v/

>> No.28959915

>>28959900

A relic'd out chapter master is basically a casual competitive concept if that makes any sense.

Like it's not assault Tyranids casual, but it's not Open GT level either.

>> No.28959927

>>28959915
>>28959915

Assault tyranids should be the standard, and viable. Mindless eating machines shouldn't use guns.

>> No.28959941

>>28959915

Exactly, I'm just not sure how many of those people actually exist. Particularly among SM players.

All the SM players I knew were super competitive, and all either quit or built Xenos armies in 6th, because they were at least smart enough to know SM is shit in this edition.

The "soft-competitive" lists I tend to see at tournaments are things like Imperial Guard, Orks, out-of-date Eldar builds, Cav-rush Daemons, etc. I never seem to see SM players taking that route; they're practically extinct right now.

>> No.28959957

>>28959900
It's a troll choice. You get this invincible fucker, put him on a bike and then assault the super duper strong Waaghboss of your enemy to see him cry tears of anal anguish when his klaw fails to cause even a single wound. The whole aim of the choice is to fuck over baddies. Which would explain the butthurt leveled at Marines.

Competitive Marine-armies run cheap relicblade-captains as meatshield for their melta-biker-gangs, don't they?

>> No.28959984

>>28959957

Competitive marines run Khan or Inquisitors for their warlord.

>> No.28959986

>>28959957

There are no competitive Marine armies right now.

The few who have tried certainly don't spend hundreds of points on melee-focused Biker units and tricked-out melee HQs. That's basically the opposite of everything powerful in 6th Ed.

You'll see a complete, over-the-top, full-9 Drop Pod list every now and then. It's about the only thing I've seen anyone seriously attempting at major GTs out of that SM book, and it hasn't been working.

Well, you'll also sometimes see Tigurius+Marines trying to act as hard Troops as allies to Tau, but everyone tries that exactly once before going "holy shit why aren't I just allying in Eldar like everyone else, they're better at this in every way."

>> No.28959998

>>28959986

White Scars topped once...

Once.

>> No.28960006

>>28959984

Khan Bike armies were a "what if," basically the first result of theorizing when we first got our hands on the book.

They went absolutely nowhere. Expensive Marine bodies (even if they're T5) do not fare well in 6th Edition.

Khan armies rely too heavily on their Troops to do the heavy lifting, and that does not work--to any degree--in the current meta. It's too deadly. If you expose your Troops, you lose your Troops.

5th Ed was the edition of strong Troops, 6th Ed is the edition of pussies (read: Guardians/Cultists/Necrons/Kroot) cowering in the corner praying the game ends before somebody looks at them.

>> No.28960026

>>28959998

What exactly did White Scars win?

>> No.28960052

>>28959132
>though Broadsides are practically going extinct, which helps

Wait, what? The last tournament I went units of missilesides outnumbered riptides by a large margin. What changed? Why they are going extinct now? It's because of Grav?

>> No.28960077

>>28960052

A fair share of Tau-primary lists will have a single unit of 3 Missilesides, but you practically never see more than that (and even that is probably 50/50 at best) in GT-level lists right now.

Missilesides lack mobility, and mobility has become king, since that's what allows you the tactical flexibility to outplay Screamerstars and Seer Councils. Against those, Broadsides just sit and impotently wait to die.

Flyers have also been on a huge downswing, which has made the Broadsides less necessary in the first place. Knocking down Necron Flyers and Heldrakes was what made them so amazing in the first place, and those things are also disappearing, so it's a doubly-whammy on them.

>> No.28960081

>>28959984
>>28959986
Thanks for the answer. Would you guys recon allowing forge world would give marines better chances? Caestus seems like it could open some good plays.

>> No.28960095

>>28960077 cont.

And to clarify, it's definitely not because of Grav.

Grav isn't even a thought that registers. Nobody ended up taking it, which is exacerbated by the fact that nobody's taking SM in the first place.

>> No.28960123

>>28960081

I don't necessarily know enough about the SM Forge World choices to say it would for certain, but you've kinda stumbled onto one of the reasons nobody allows Forge World that is often overlooked by ragefaggots who think it's solely a balance thing.

About 75-80% of the published Forge World choices are for Space Marines, when there are a dozen Codexes, most of which aren't Space Marines.

It's similar to MTG printing a whole expansion that was just for Red, and telling everyone else to go fuck themselves. It's a big part of why Forge World rules aren't super likely to ever gain widespread acceptance.

>> No.28960126

>>28960026

Feast of Blades Open

>> No.28960138

>>28960095

I fucking hate when idiots on /tg/ say "grav weapons" in response to Riptide discussions or C:SM complaining about how bad their army is.

>> No.28960165

>>28960126

Oh, hah.

No offense, but the Open isn't a serious tournament. The Invitational isn't exactly "invitational," in the sense that the NOVA Invitational is, or similar.

Qualifying for FoB is a given for anyone who wants to; it had like 200 players. Everybody in the Open was playing goofy lists, on goofy tables. Like seriously goofy.

We were literally playing five feet from each other, separated by a walkway, and the difference between the tables alone was hilarious to look at. On one side you have GT-standard 5-piece, here's a ruin, here's a hill, identical tables.

On the other side, you have fucking jungles made out of plastic flowers they bought at craft shops, and 3-foot (seriously) Necron monolith-things blocking off the entire center 25% of the table.

I was there, and I didn't even have a clue who won the Open, because it was more a spectacle than a tournament.

>> No.28960270

>>28960165
>On one side you have GT-standard 5-piece, here's a ruin, here's a hill, identical tables.

I never understood that. Are you not supposed to have 25% of the table filled with terrain?

>> No.28960290

>>28960270

It is 25%. The problem is you need more than 25% and the way you measure 25% is retarded. You plop all the terrain in one corner of the table and if all their bases (yes, bases, not structures, because base of area terrain gives cover save and is still terrain) fill the 25% you're good to go.

You can have like two big hills with huge bases cover 25% of the table and be playing with just 2 terrain pieces that is "legal" setup.

Frankly I recommend terrain start being not based on anything, or if you're going to make huge fucking bases then play with 50% terrain or something.

>> No.28960297

>>28960270

GT tables are pretty much always a little above 25%. Mike Brandt threw up some diagrams last year because of people bitching about exactly that.

I think people overestimate how much 25% actually is. Spread out on a board, it tends to look tiny.

It's probably due to the fact that GT terrain is plain, practical, and minimalist--but that's a necessity when you've got to equip 100+ identical tables without spending a hundred thousand dollars on terrain.

>> No.28960314

>>28960297
>Mike Brandt threw up some diagrams last year because of people bitching about exactly that.

The one in Vassal, right?

Frankly when two of your terrain pieces are one long strip of 5+ cover and another is just a tree or two, AND you've got gaps in between the terrain bases, that is not nearly enough.

>> No.28960331

>>28960290
>>28960297
After quickly browsing some tournament galleries, the base area of terrain usually seems suitable, but why the fuck is everything so fucking low? You couldnt hide a tank or carnifex behind anything, except the occasional ruin which hogs the board edge...

>> No.28960396

>>28960331
>but why the fuck is everything so fucking low?

No idea. That's the main problem with tournament terrain, not enough line of sight blockers to keep Tau and Eldar in check.

I think one reason was the really big tournaments have over 100 tables so they don't have enough materials to keep every table up to par.

>> No.28960405

>>28960314
>>28960331

The basic standard that most tournaments arrive at is basically an "X" pattern of five major terrain pieces.

Each side will get a larger, vertical piece of terrain (intended to block LoS to most non-fuckhuge models, a mid-sized MC or vehicle is generally the baseline). This is usually something like a ruin.

Each side will also get a flat piece of area terrain, usually a forest or similar.

Those two pieces usually directly mirror each other, and are often literally identical.

There will then be a "centerpiece" in the middle, sometimes more ornate than the others, but at many tournaments the centerpiece will vary wildly from table to table.

A few additional pieces may be thrown in here and there, but they usually aren't large or particularly relevant.

You've also got to consider that the more complicated the terrain gets (generally, the more vertical it is) the harder it is to play around, and the longer it will take to deal with during a game. That's a bad thing for time-limited tournament games, and another reason to keep the terrain simplistic whenever possible.

>> No.28960425

>>28960396
>BLOS keeping Tau and Eldar in check


That's honestly just not true. With their weakass hidey-hole Troops, Tau and Eldar often benefit the most from BLOS terrain.

They also tend to have the kind of tricks and mobility that allow them to ignore LOS and/or get at your Troops, regardless of how well you hide them. More terrain would not necessarily impact Tau/Eldar to the degree you think it would.

>> No.28960427

>>28960405

The ruins are always full of windows and shit though aren't they? Worthless.

>> No.28960442

>>28960425
>More terrain would not necessarily impact Tau/Eldar to the degree you think it would.

Except FLG tried this experiment with LoS blocker overload and the tournament ended up with Daemons and Tyranids winning and Tau/Eldar players complaining about not being able to see the enemy.

>> No.28960472

>>28960427

GT ruins aren't the ruins you're thinking of. It's usually something like an overturned corrugated cardboard box spraypainted with some shit glued onto it.

They can't shell out the cash for the GW-made ruins, obviously, and for practical purposes their ruins are almost always made with the sole goal of being LOS-blocking terrain.

>> No.28960480

>>28960405
Yeah, but my problems with that are:

-Why would you want to hide your guys in your own deployment zone? Why is the actually interesting terraina t the boardedge?

-Why not make super cheap, 8" high, ~6" hills, 2 per table, and place them on the long axis in the middle, slightly off maybe? Gives you a lot more space to outmaneuver guns, makes actual high ground important.

-flat area terrain can be made super cheap, easy and fast. you can make like 20 m2 of rough rocky cover for 5 euros and some old cornflakes boxes.

Apologies in prior if any questions are dumb, but that just irks me.

>> No.28960488

Why don't people just bring their own terrain to these big tournaments?

>> No.28960494

>>28960488
impossible to standardise is my guess.

>> No.28960503

>>28960442
>FLG
>experiment

FLG's "experiments" are less science and more "Reece decided a thing, throw together some shit and prove the thing he decided."

I mean, I'm not a fan of allowing Escalation, but the anti-Escalation/Reaver Titan video they threw together was an affront to common sense.

Reece threw a ragefit about the state of terrain in 40k, he then spent two months screaming "OH YEAH? WELL I'LL HAVE A TOURNAMENT WITH A FUCKHUGE AMOUNT OF TERRAIN JUST TO SHOW YOU THAT TAU AND ELDAR SUCK AT IT."

...because that's a spectacularly nonbiased way to come at the situation, and in no way impacted the attendance of Tau or Eldar lists among the serious competitive players at the event.

Perhaps after Tyranids release, Reece will throw an event titled "TYRANIDS WILL NOT WIN THIS EVENT: I GUARANTEE IT" and then use it as proof that the new Tyranid book is awful?

>> No.28960507

>>28960494

I bet if you gave standards, you could get people to create their own. Even if only 50% of people bothered to do it, that would be more than enough

>> No.28960509

>>28960488

Creates biased playing field. The current terrain setup may not be "fair" due to not blocking much LoS, but at least it's a uniform distribution.

>> No.28960517

>>28960480
>-Why would you want to hide your guys in your own deployment zone? Why is the actually interesting terraina t the boardedge?

Some tournaments have weird missions going on where if you're controlling table corners or objectives placed near the edge you get points.

>> No.28960525
File: 1.87 MB, 3648x2736, P1000828.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28960525

WIP.
Got an old beat up marine army for close to nothing.
Bathe everything in brake fluid, then conversion time!

>> No.28960528

>>28960503

Jy2 had a rematch using all his theory and made an anti-Revenant list with Necron flyers and a C'tan and still lost.

I also wish Reecius were as colorful as you describe him because that would be way more awesome.

>> No.28960534

>>28960517
>Some tournaments have weird missions going on where if you're controlling table corners or objectives placed near the edge you get points.

I guess that makes more sense, then. Are stuff like bug guns never tire a thing in tourneys?

>> No.28960538

>>28960525
>brake fluid

Hue.

>> No.28960542

>>28960534
>bug guns
LaughingTermagantsEatingSalad.jpg

>> No.28960545

>>28960480

Covering the board in area terrain clusterfucks vehicles (by burying them in DT checks) more than this edition already does. It's not really a viable option.

As far as the hills you describe, terrain that tall is a nightmare, play-wise. 8" high, 6" wide hills would basically be vertical cliffs, the sides would be all-but unusable for gameplay and you'd have to even figure out how models get on/off them.

But it's worth noting that the "centerpiece" on many tables is often something like you describe, a large vertical wall/oversized ruin that fucks up the sight lines through the center. It's not something you want on EVERY board, but it's something people should have to consider.

It's also worth noting that some GTs do rulebook-style terrain, where the players place it. Adepticon did this, and it tends to lower terrain-rage, because the players feel like they have a hand in how it was all laid out.

>> No.28960552

>>28960545
>Covering the board in area terrain clusterfucks vehicles (by burying them in DT checks) more than this edition already does. It's not really a viable option.
>using grounded vehicles

Mon-keigh pls

>> No.28960589

>>28960545
>playing on terrain with round bridge or hill
>models have to lie on their back to enjoy the sun or crawl up the hills
It always sucks

>> No.28960603

>>28960589

There's no way to get around it without making the table look like LEGO Land though.

For buildings I saw a really cool terrain piece where there was a ladder with slots, and you could slot a 25mm base into it and your dude would look like he was climbing the ladder.

>> No.28960624

>>28960538
que?

>> No.28960743
File: 142 KB, 873x627, 1387455264877.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
28960743

The bumps all over Eldar arms, armour and materiel, are they Spirit Stones or something else?
Is the loss of a Wraith Knight also the loss of a hundred of the things? Or just the one central, chest one?
If they are stones, does that mean that the Eldar take thousands of their dearly departed into every fight for seemingly no purpose?
If they are not occupied, what purpose do they exactly serve?

Does anyone know? Has this ever even been mentioned?

>> No.28960762

>>28960743
Looks decorative to me.

>> No.28960770

>>28960743
The big one in the middle is one for the twin's stones, the other are justpretty stones

>> No.28960773

>>28960743
Circuitry, and some of them are the equivalent of a TACTICOOL pouch - an Eldar wearing a billion stones is operator operating

Read IA... 11?

Check, uh

>> No.28960802

>>28960589

This is why "hills" at GTs are usually just styrofoam blocks with flat chunks hacked out of them, and don't really have any sort of angled inclines.

They basically end up looking like tiny step pyramids, but are infinitely less frustrating to play on.

>> No.28960824

>>28960743

Seems like it would be shitty Eldar folklore.

>if we cover our Wraith-constructs in shiny stones, Slaanesh won't know which one actually holds the souls

actually, aren't there real life civilizations that have folklore exactly like that? confusing spirits with stupid shit to keep people safe? sounds too familiar

>> No.28960857

>>28960824
it sounds too hilarious and juicy not to be true

>> No.28960945

>>28959818
CanCon?

I was going to be playing this year but a series of unfortunate events means most my army is still unpainted. Oh well, 2015 here I come.

What is it like?

>> No.28961758

I'm looking to get back into 40K so i was wondering if what you would suggest out of my two army ideas so far.

The first was to run a Battlesuit heavy Tau force. I'd use the Farsight supplement to make the list. I don't have the book and have been to lazy to find it online so I don't have a list idea aside from a metric fuckton of crisis suits.

The other is an Iron Hands Mech army. I like the idea of using a lot of Razorbacks if possible and dreadnoughts in support but once again I don't have the book to know if this is viable.

Any helpful advice?

>> No.28961785

>>28961758
>so i was wondering if what you would suggest out of my two army ideas so far

What that abomination of a sentience was supposed to say was: After looking at my ideas below do you think they are viable, and what suggestions would you make to running/planning them.

>> No.28961802

>>28961758
Go master of the forge with all dreadnoughts, fill up all elite and heavy slots. Buy contemptor dreadnoughts and tell your opponents to eat a dick and suck your dual rending assault cannons

>> No.28961825

>>28961802
Hahaha sounds like a plan, what about Troops though? Is some tactical squads in Rhinos a viable option?

>> No.28961838

>>28961802
By Rhinos I meant Razorbacks

>> No.28961849

>>28961758
>a Battlesuit heavy Tau force
Tau are one of the easiest armies to play until you try and do a list like this. All-suit Tau are extremely difficult to pull off effectively. It looks great on paper, but then you start thinking about it and realize just how weak it actually is.

>an Iron Hands Mech army. I like the idea of using a lot of Razorbacks if possible and dreadnoughts in support
This has its own problems, too. Razorbacks and Dreadnoughts are usually not worth the points as they tend to go down pretty quickly. However, with Iron Hands tactics this becomes a little more reasonable.

Based on your two options, I think you'll have more success with the Iron Hands army.

>> No.28961875

>>28961825
If you have already purchased or have them, then yes they are viable.

>> No.28961876

>>28961802
>Buy contemptor dreadnoughts and tell your opponents to eat a dick and suck your dual rending assault cannons
Not worth it. Assault Cannons are only only 24", and with how weak Dreadnoughts are, you probably won't make it there.

Just take 2 Autocannons, instead. Double the range and higher strength shots. And it's out of the codex, so you don't have to bother with FW.

If you're a new player, stick with the pure rules. Don't think about FW until after you've got a solid grasp on the game.

>>28961838
I would go with Rhinos instead of Razorbacks because that way you can have more bodies on the table. Razorbacks tend to get shot up pretty easily, and in a list like this you'll have more than enough firepower from your other vehicles.

>> No.28961891

>>28961876
still have to buy the autocannons from FW though, which really pisses me off

>> No.28961926

>>28961875
I haven't bought anything yet I wanted to make sure that the army I wanted to play is not terrible.

>>28961876
Yeah I'm not trying to run anything out of FW at this point.

General question how many tactical squads should I include in this list, I'm ball-parking three ten man squads?

>> No.28961957

>>28960743
>>28960773
He's right, Imperial Armour 11 says that most of said bumps are actually for the technological gumbo underneath the Wraithbone. And yes, the explosive detonation of Eldar Vehicles and Wraith Constructs is enough to qualify them for a true death, which is why fielding these things is constantly painted as a controversial and desperate venture.

>> No.28961985

>>28961957
Everything the Eldar do is controversial and desperate

>> No.28962088

>>28961985
Now I need that compilation of every time the new Eldar codex says "doom".

>> No.28962130

>>28961891
They're pretty cheap. It's annoying, yeah, but you do what you gotta do.

>>28961926
>I'm ball-parking three ten man squads?
At what point level? You need at least 2 squads no matter what point level you play at, but they certainly don't have to be full.

With a list like this, you want to have as many tanks on the board as possible. Infantry would be secondary in your army.

But even filling up on Heavy Supports and Elites, you should still have plenty of points left over for at least 3 full squads of Marines at 2,000 points.

Before then, however, you might have to make some tough decisions.

>> No.28962133

Enjoying the new escalation:

Eldar (1850/1850pt.)

HQ [ 1 ]

Autarch (80pt.)
>Banshee mask; Avenger shuriken catapult

Troops [ 3 ]

3x - Dire Avengers (600pt.)
> 5x - Dire Avenger (13pt.); Aspect armour; Avenger shuriken catapult; Plasma grenades;
> 1x - Wave Serpent (135pt.); Serpent shield; Twin-linked scatter lasers; Twin-linked shuriken catapult; Holo-fields;

Fast attack [ 2 ]

2x - Crimson Hunter (320pt.)
>Pulse laser; Bright lance (x2);

Heavy support [ 2 ]

2x - Fire Prism (125pt.)
>Prism cannon; Twin-linked shuriken catapults;

Super-heavy [ 1 ]

Cobra (600pt.)
>D-Cannon; Shuriken Cannon;

>> No.28962145

>>28962088
wait thats a thing?

>> No.28962222

For the Armless One!

Chaos Space Marines (Black Legion Supplement) - 500 Points

Sorcerer - 75 Points
- Psyker Level 1
- Gift of Mutation
- VotLW (Every model that can take it, must take it.)

5-man Chosen - 125 Points
- (1) Plasma Gun
- Autocannon
- VotLW

5-man Chosen - 125 Points
- (1) Plasma Gun
- Autocannon
- VotLW

Forgefiend - 175 Points
- Two Hades Autocannons

This is definitely the weakest point level for the list I have in mid. For example, at 750 Points I add a Heldrake and The Eye of Night. And it only gets worse from there.

Plan is to park the Chosen in cover, park the Forgefiend somewhere with good firing lanes, and then dakka dakka dakka. Even with smaller squads of Chosen, then ability to take a Plasma Gun and an Autocannons should (hopefully) be enough to stave off TEQ and hordes. Plus there's the Sorcerer, who I'm seriously considering taking lolsmite on for the additional AP2 dakka.

Forgefiend in the real star, though (as well he should be for 175 points). Eight s8 shots per turn with Daemonforge I'm HOPING will be enough to handle any flyers or heavy tanks my opponent fields. And all that dakka should be more than enough to shred lighter vehicles and transports.

Basically the plan is to camp in cover, fire away with the autocannons to make them come to me, then follow up with the plasma and psyker to finish them off.

And once they're out in the open, unleash the Forgefiend on them with the pinning shots, which makes them stuck outside of cover. Then dakka away while they're sitting ducks.

And then rub my hands together maliciously.

Just as planned.

>> No.28962227

Is taking an allied detachment for someone who's Desperate Allies a terrible idea? It seems like if I'm careful with positioning I shouldn't need to roll too many times and it's only a 1/6 chance of it biting me in the ass anyway. Am I underestimating it's likelyhood to fuck me over?

>> No.28962239

>>28962227
>Is taking an allied detachment for someone who's Desperate Allies a terrible idea?
Depends on who your main force is and who your allies are.

>> No.28962306

>>28962239
Chaos with Tau.

>> No.28962318

>>28962306
>Chaos with Tau.
What do Tau add to your army that you couldn't otherwise have with just Chaos?

Also, which Chaos? Space Marines or Daemons?

>> No.28962364

>>28962318
CSM. I'll just post my list, it'll be easier.

Chaos Space Marines (Primary detachement)

HQ
Chaos Lord (65pts)

Elites (260pts)

Khorne Berzerkers (130pts)
4x Chain Axe (12pts), 4x Khorne Berzerker (76pts)
Berzerker Champion (42pts)
Bolt Pistol, Chainaxe (8pts), Melta Bombs (5pts)

Khorne Berzerkers (130pts)
4x Chain Axe (12pts), 4x Khorne Berzerker (76pts)
Berzerker Champion (42pts)
Bolt Pistol, Chainaxe (8pts), Melta Bombs (5pts)


Troops (150pts)

Chaos Space Marines (75pts)
4x Chaos Space Marine (52pts)
Aspiring Champion (23pts)
Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Close Combat Weapon

Chaos Space Marines (75pts)
4x Chaos Space Marine (52pts)
Aspiring Champion (23pts)
Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Close Combat Weapon

Fast Attack (510pts)

Heldrake (170pts)
Baleflamer

Heldrake (170pts)
Baleflamer

Heldrake (170pts)
Baleflamer


Heavy Support (190pts)

Havocs (190pts)
Aspiring Champion (23pts), 4x Havoc (52pts), 4x Lascannon (80pts)
Chaos Rhino (35pts)

Tau - Allied detachement

HQ (85pts)

Commander (85pts)
No upgrades

Elites (605pts)

XV104 Riptide (205pts)
Ion accelerator (5pts), Twin-linked smart missile system, Velocity tracker (20pts)
XV104 Riptide (200pts)
Heavy burst cannon, Twin-linked plasma rifle, Velocity tracker (20pts)
XV104 Riptide (200pts)
Heavy burst cannon, Twin-linked fusion blaster, Velocity tracker (20pts)


Troops (133pts)

Fire Warrior Team (73pts)
6x Fire Warrior Shas'la with pulse rifle (54pts), Photon grenades
Fire Warrior Shas'ui (19pts)

Kroot Carnivore Squad (60pts)
10x Kroot (60pts)
10x Kroot rifle

1998pts

>> No.28962388

>>28962364
allied detachments use allied FOC so 1HQ, 1-2troops 0-1 Elites 0-1 HS 0-1 FA

>> No.28962403

>>28962388
Oh dang, forgot that.

Ne'ermind!

>> No.28962508

>>28962364
>3 Heldrakes
>3 Riptides

Where you born a faggot, or did you have to work at it?

>> No.28962616

>>28962508
>3 heldrakes
>3 riptides
>1 testicle
>no penis

>> No.28962627

>>28960525
that's looking really cool boss

>> No.28962632

>>28962130
I was thinking at 2000 points you would want as many troop choices as possible. Someone told me you want to spend half your points on scoring units as a rule of thumb. Thoughts?

>> No.28962745

>>28962508
What do you mean?

>> No.28962750

>>28962130
I was thinking for 1500-2000 points. Yeah I would for a smaller army something like 2 squads at 5-8 dudes.

Also what would you suggest for units in a 1750 point list? My rough sketch would be as fallows: master of the forge
x2 techmarine supports
2-4 dreadnoughts
2 tac squads with 10 dudes and rihnos
Bike squad
vindicator

No idea on points and if the list is schizophrenic or not just throwing a rough sketch out there.

>> No.28962822

>>28962745
What I mean is that a list like that reeks of WAAC faggotry.

Coming to the table with a list like that is a sure-fire way to make sure you never have any friends, and that no one will every play against you.

>>28962632
Depends on the army and type of list. If you're running a horde army, then you definitely want as many troops as possible (because that means as many bodies as possible).

But if you're running a more specialized see: difficult list, then stocking up on troops is going to get really expensive really quick.

For an Iron Hands mech list, your troops are really only there to hold objectives. Your tanks and walkers are going to be doing pretty much everything for you. This doesn't mean you should ignore troops entirely (since a 5-man squad with no upgrades isn't going to be able to hold jack shit), but it means that you can focus your attention elsewhere.

At 2,000 points, I'd say a 3-troop minimum no matter what kind of army you're playing. Even with taking all your Heavy Support and Elites choices, you should have plenty of points left over for this (and possibly more).

>>28962750
Drop the bikes, get more tanks. Also, give your Tacticals some weapons. Depending on how you gear the Dreadnoughts, you have a serious lack of long-rang anti-tank, which will be a real problem because tanks usually have things like lascannons that can pop your vehicles in one shot.

You also have no anti-air with that list.

>> No.28962876

>>28962822
>What I mean is that a list like that reeks of WAAC faggotry.
>WAAC
>Women's Auxiliary Army Corps
>faggotry
I DON'T UNDERSTAND

>> No.28962890

>>28962876
WAAC = Win At All Costs

A player that sacrifices fun because they're much more interested in being a dick to everyone around them.

>> No.28962923

>>28962822
Thanks, just a rough sketch of what I'm thinking.
I'd probably use most of my elites on dreads and use the heavy support to grab a predator anailator for tank hunting, a vindicator, and maybe the new anti-air tank? Thoughts of that as my armor?

>> No.28963042

>>28962890
But being a dick IS fun

>> No.28963103

>>28963042
except when someone is jamming their dick down your eurethra. in that case i would much rather be a pussy or an asshole.

>> No.28963180

>>28962923
Predators are always good choices. av13, lots of weapons, and dirt cheap. Land Raiders are always amazing, but expensive. With Iron Hands tactics, I'd go for as many heavier tanks as possible. Dreadnoughts for Elites, Land Raiders for Heavy Support, and either an Aegis with a Quad-Gun for anti-air (not only do you get Interceptor this way, but it also leaves a Heavy Support slot open for another tank). Plus it gives you an excuse to save points by not getting a Rhino because you can just stick a Tactical squad behind it.

>> No.28963204

>>28963042
It's not fun for your opponent. And if both of you aren't having fun, then you're doing it wrong.

And if you don't care about your opponent having fun, then you're not going to have very many opponents for very long. And you'll quickly become That Guy who throws down Heldrakes and Riptides against 8 year olds who are playing for the first time.

>> No.28963223

>>28963180
I was going to say either an Aegis or a Stalker, but changed my mind about the Stalker for two reasons:

1) It takes up a Heavy Support slot that you really should be using on as many tanks as possible.

2) It doesn't have Interceptor, while the Quad-Gun does.

>> No.28963335

>>28963180
>>28963223
Shit I thought I read that the Stalker has Interceptor. Ok so would you suggest Predators or land raiders? I'm thinking focusing on Predators, it seems like the smarter of the two options.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the way to run this would be to outfit the tactical squads as anti infantry. The Dreads as anti-infantry as well??? and use my heave support to tank hunt mostly.

>> No.28963336

>>28963103
lrn2urethal sounding newfag

>> No.28963393

>>28962222
eye of night sounds great on paper, but 1 shot for 75 points is too rich for my blood. you're low on bodies and a lv1 sorcerer isn't gonna do much besides be the cheap hq that you want.

>> No.28963497

>>28963335
>Ok so would you suggest Predators or land raiders? I'm thinking focusing on Predators, it seems like the smarter of the two options.
Land Raiders if you can find the points. With Iron Hands tactics and a Master of the Forge, and Land Raiders you field are going to be a real pain in the ass for your opponent to try and kill.

But if you can't manage the points for it, Predators are a really nice second option.

>Correct me if I'm wrong but the way to run this would be to outfit the tactical squads as anti infantry. The Dreads as anti-infantry as well??? and use my heave support to tank hunt mostly.
I would equip your Dreadnoughts with an Autocannon and a Plasma Cannon. Not only would that give you some serious anti-infantry, but it would also give you a pretty good chance of taking out light tanks and transports. The Plasma Cannon adds some really nice ap2 blasts to your list (so you're not wasting lascannon shots on terminators when there are tanks to kill), and the Autocannon is a great weapon to follow it up with. That would also let you keep them back near your Master of the Forge in case you need to repair of hull point. It also seems to fit better with your army. With an Aegis and the kind of list you have, it seems like you best plan is going to be to set up a gunline of tanks and just blow everything up. Dakka Dreadnoughts fit into that very nicely.

And with the ability to take multiple lascannons on a Predator and the two lascannons standard on a Land Raider (I would suggest taking the vanilla Land Raiders. You're not looking to transport anything, so you don't need a Crusader, and I've never been too crazy about Redeemers), either way you're going to have a pretty nasty tank-killer.

As for your infantry... I'd go for long-range anti-horde. Heavy Bolters and Plasma Guns.

So nothing to correct. I think you're right on the money with that plan.

>> No.28963585

>>28963393
>eye of night sounds great on paper, but 1 shot for 75 points is too rich for my blood.
Haywire Maelstrom makes it worth it, in my opinion. Infinite range large blast that automatically causes 1d3 penetrating hits to all vehicles? All it has to do is take out 1 tank and it's already made back its points and then some. Not only that, but it adds some very much needed anti-heavy tank to my list.

>you're low on bodies and a lv1 sorcerer isn't gonna do much besides be the cheap hq that you want.
Yeah, every casualty is going to hurt. But what I really like about Chosen is that even at a minimum squad, I can take weapon upgrades. I'm banking on the Autocannon and the Plasma Gun to make the low number of bodies worth it.

As for the HQ, yeah, it's a cheap pick. But really, lolsmite seems really useful in an army like this. It adds much-needed ap2, and adds it 4 times over (lolsmite is assault 4). So it's cheap points-wise, and can add some great anti-TEQ with a primaris power.

Having said that, 500 points is definitely where this list is the weakest. 750 is where I can start taking some really cool toys, and by the time you get up to tournament-level points (1850) the list looks like a real monster on paper.

>> No.28963641

>>28963497
Awesome, should I run two predators/land raiders and a vindicator, or just another tank? It seems like at this point a vindicator would go against the gunline scheme.

>> No.28963673

>>28963641
Yeah, I'd drop the Vindicator. Vindicators are better for supporting infantry-rushes. Seems like a list like yours is more about long-range fire.

I'd shoot for 2 Land Raiders and a Predator just because Land Raiders are so expensive. I haven't played around with the calculator yet, but that should leave you with enough points for 3 Dreadnoughts and a decent amount of troops.

Perhaps even a second Master of the Forge?

>> No.28963800

>>28963673
Well I would love to field another Master of the Forge but I also am thinking of running a group of Techmarines with severitor squads so I can have multiple repair squads. It seems like it could be a an interresting idea. Make sure that the tanks would never die.

>> No.28963972

>>28963800
>Techmarines with severitor squads so I can have multiple repair squads
Double Master of the Forge, double Techmarine squads? If you can find the points, could be amazing. Just don't sacrifice any tanks for another HQ.

>Make sure that the tanks would never die.
That's how your list is going to win. By having a ton of tanks, and all sorts of ways to make sure they never die. Your opponent has no choice but to focus on them, and you can just heal them back up if he managed to take out a hull point.

>> No.28964354

>>28963972
Awesome so the final list will be something like this:
Master of the Forge: With some gear/servators
2-3 Techmariens: With some servarots
2-3 Dreadnoughts with autocannons and plasma cannons
2 Ten man tactical marine squads probably with some plasma guns, with Rhinos
1 Ten man tactical squad with heavy weapons to man the Agies defense line
3 Predator Annihilators

>> No.28964557

>>28964354
I'd drop one of the Rhino'ed Tactical squads and upgrade one of the Predators to a Land Raider.

With that many Dreadnoughts, I'd even go so far as to recommend that you drop a Tactical squad, and drop all three Predators to take two Land Raiders instead.

Predators are fine if you can't find the points, but what you really want in your army are Land Raiders. av14 on all sides makes a world of difference, and your opponent is going to have a really hard time working through all those hull points with the Techmarines on stand-by.

>> No.28964683

>>28964557
Ok so the new list is tentatively:
Master of the Forge: With some gear/servators
2-3 Techmariens: With some servarots
2-3 Dreadnoughts with autocannons and plasma cannons
1 Ten man tactical marine squads probably with some plasma guns
1 Ten man tactical squad with heavy weapons to man the Agies defense line
1 Predator Annihilator and two Land Raiders or 2 Land Raiders

>> No.28964698

>>28964557
4 HP, 14/14/14, IWND and techmarines around is a brutal combination. Two of them, with huge amounts of armor as support is going to be nigh impossible for most lists to crack.

>> No.28964713

>>28963204
you sound a little bitter

>> No.28964907

>>28964683
Looks good to me. Now you just need to play around with the codex and a calculator.

>>28964698
That's my thoughts, too. Seems like a pretty brutal combination.

>> No.28965004

>>28964907
Thanks for the help. I'm actually pretty excited to get back into the game now. One more question, should I use the Clan Raukaan supplement or just the core codex using the Iron Hands special rules.

>>28964698
That's the hope

>> No.28965214

>>28965004
I don't know enough about the supplement to recommend either way. If you can afford it, I'd pick it up, flip through it, and see if it's worth using.

But do some google-fu first to see the changes and see if it's something worth investing in.

>> No.28965253

>>28965004
>>28965214
Just looked it up. Definitely get it and use it.

It lets you take 2 Techmarine squads for every HQ choice. That alone makes it worth buying for you.

>> No.28965275

>>28965004
>>28965214
>>28965253
Holy crap this supplement is amazing for you.

Definitely get it. Read the rules, the Warlord Traits, and the Relics.

Then change your pants because you just creamed yourself.

Then thank me.

>> No.28965316

>>28965275
Yeah I just did a quick scan, and holy shit please tell me the Ironstone is as good as it sounds. And yeah no I pretty much just creamed my pants reading some of the stuff.

>> No.28965534

>>28965316
It sounds like you have a pretty awesome list and a great supplement to make it even more awesome.

Like I said, now you just need to get the codices and a calculator, draft up a list, and then post it here for finishing touches.

>> No.28965819

>>28965534
Will do, and thanks for the help!

>> No.28966246

1k chaos "i wanna outflank and rush with beasts/walkers' list

chaos lord, brand of something, mark of slaanesh, steed, sigil, mutation, power lance, melta bomb 180
chaos sorcerer, lv2, mark of slaanesh, aura, mutation, force staff 140
6 chosen, 5 flamers, 1 combi flamer 143
5 noise marines, 4 sonics 107
10 cultists 50
10 cultists 50
giant chaos spawn 80
maulerfiend 125
maulerfiend 125

i think i'll try it out later on vassal. not a conventional list and i wanna try out the slaanesh powers.

from what i've seen i tend to do horrible with long range shooting and i need a unit to get into the enemy back field fast. no flyers but at 1k there shouldn't be too many

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