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[ERROR] No.28935466 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Do Gollum, Sam, and Boromir count as ringbearers since they carried it (Boromir found it in the snow after Frodo dropped it and gave it back to him)?

>> No.28935503

>>28935466

Didn't Sam get called to the Undying Lands as well?

>> No.28935525

>>28935466
Sam counts, I don't think Gollum does in the sense you think he does, since he didn't carry it with the purpose of destroying it. I don't think Boromir carried it long enough for it to count.

>> No.28935526

LotR threads all over /tg/ this week.

Did /tv/ overflow?

>> No.28935533

>>28935466

Gollum and Sam both count as Ringbearers, they even say this at the end of Return of the King when Frodo is leaving Middle-Earth.

They tell Sam that he will have to leave eventually as well since he bore the ring for a time.

>>28935503

Yes.

>> No.28935541

Boromir only picked the ring up by the chain, he didn't touch it directly.

>> No.28935546

>>28935525

I always took it as anyone who ever wore one of the rings of power was a ringbearer, and not just some guy that picked it up for a second.

>> No.28935557

>>28935526
Yeah. The whole internet is Hobbit right now.

>> No.28935566

>>28935526
New movie, and /tg/ always talks about LotR so with it fresh in everyone's minds...

>> No.28935579

>>28935526

Are you trying to claim that LoTR doesn't belong on /tg/?

Seriously?

>> No.28935592

>>28935579
I think his intentions were innocent.

>> No.28935624

>>28935579

It's not about it not belonging, it's about the 30000% increase in threads.

That fat elf fucker has been the OP image in about six threads in the past 24 hours. In fact, there was a whole thread talking about how fat he is. That's how much we've scraped the bottom of the barrel.

I'll give you a preview of the next 2 hours:

>people start discussing deeply obscure Silmarillion references
>everyone else talks about how they could never read the Silmarillion
>someone accidentally mentions something that happened in the movies, but not the books
>RAAAAAAAAGE.jpg

>> No.28935634

>>28935592

A younger, more naive version of myself would believe he was merely curious, but a me hardened by years of 4chan has made me realize that there really are people that fucking stupid out there.

To further prove this I would like to remind you of the old petition to rename The Two Towers to "something less offensive."

>> No.28935644

>>28935624
While you may be correct, the same thread can happen more than once if people are willing to discuss it.

>> No.28935659

Tolkien knew well how to write a mystery, I'll give him that. Deliberately leaving magic.. well, magical, and look at us tearing each other apart. All we can really determine properly is that most magic, especially the powerful kind, involved your voice - and that's only because Tolkien had a hard on for his philology.

I still wish we knew more about the Elf rings. Vilya and Nenya especially. And mortal sorcery, something I've got a /tg/ sized boner for. If Necromancy ever comes about, they'll need to hide Tolkien's grave to prevent a neckbeard flood.

>> No.28935679

>>28935634
I'm going to go lie down for a little bit.

An apt banner.

>> No.28935693

>>28935526

when does it not?

remember the week Pacific rim came out?

jeezus

>> No.28935700

>>28935624

By this logic we should stop talking about D&D, 40k, MtG, WoD, and Shadowrun since those are the 5 most semi-regularly to constantly discussed topics on the board.

>> No.28935766

>>28935693

I feel like we get the refugees from /tv/ when they get tired of harping on the same two topics 24/7.

So...they come here, and harp on the same two topics.

>> No.28935796

>>28935700
>D&D, 40k, MtG, WoD, and Shadowrun

>things that actually are traditional games

>y'all niggas posting in a Games Workshop LotR Strategy Battle Game thread?
>?

>> No.28935819

>>28935766
>implying those people may not click on other threads while they're here
>implying getting more people into /tg/ related hobbies is a bad thing at this point in history.

It'll die down soon. It's just like fat people going to the gym in January.

>> No.28935861

>>28935766

Are you trying to tell me that you have never seen a movie, thought it was badass and then tried to turn it into a campaign setting?

What I am saying here is that I am betting money that there is a big overlap between /tg/ and /tv/ just like an overlap with /tg/ and /a/ for example.

>>28935796

The series that was a monumental inspiration to D&D's creation which was then a monumental inspiration to just about every single /tg/ related game out there can be on /tg/ very easily. Stop being autistic.

>>28935819

Or it's just fa/tg/uys wanting to talk about LoTR on their preferred board.

>> No.28935895

>>28935796
Actually I've seen several threads about the new models being released for the Hobbit war-game line

>> No.28935940

Wait, why do ringbearers have to leave middle earth?

>> No.28935969

>>28935940

Because the end of the third age is the end of magic and the beginning of the age of men, and in the LoTR-verse men can't do magic apparently.

>> No.28935976

seriously guys, let's get back on topic:

how fat is that fucking elf?

>> No.28935999

>>28935969
So if they stick around, the magic fading out kills them?

>> No.28936004

>>28935895

>y'all niggas posting in a Games Workshop: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug: Strategy Battle Game thread

>> No.28936019

>>28935976
He looks 190 or so.

>> No.28936046

>>28935940
Because the Valar are done with this "magic" shit and want it off Middle Earth.

Same reason the elves are called; in the Valar's mind, the world is ended. Everything immortal is called back to the undying lands, and Middle Earth is left to run its course.

>> No.28936053

>>28935999

No...

They never really mentioned why the Elves and the Ringbearers and the like had to go to the Undying Lands.

Oh wait, Arwen supposedly became mortal since she stayed behind...yet she was supposed to outlive Aragorn and mourn his death for an indeterminately long period of time. Perhaps by "mortal" Tolkien meant she wouldn't go to Elf Heaven.

>> No.28936070

>>28936046

The Valar are really fickle and shitty gods.

>> No.28936086

>>28936053
Probably to remove magic from the world, to keep Sauron and the War of the Ring and the like from ever happening again.

>> No.28936151

>>28935969
Huh? But aren't Gandalf, Saruman et. al humans?

What happened to Gandalf at the end of LotR anyway, I forgot.

>> No.28936189

>>28936151

Gandalf, Saruman and the rest of the wizards are Maiar, which are basically supped up spirits. They are ageless and generally all of them are badass.

Gandalf and the rest of the wizards went to the Undying Lands.

>> No.28936200

>>28936151
Nope, they're demigods of a sort.

>> No.28936242

>>28936151
The wizards aren't humans.
This is all half remembered crap mind you, but the Wizards of which there were 7-9 were part on the pantheon of gods in the Undying lands.
They were on par in strength of Balrogs and other things also from the Undying lands.
They were all sent to Middle Earth with a specific task to fight the great evil.
Over time as magic fades so does their memory and strength as they become weaker.

>> No.28936246

>>28936151
>Aren't Gandalf/Saruman/etc human

Oh no

Oh god no.

The 'wizards' are powerful spirits sent by the god of the world to protect and counsel men, because the last time he got directly involved it sank a continent or some shit.

>> No.28936291

>>28936246

It sank a continent of his favorite men at that.

>> No.28936420

>>28935466
Is that Jonah Hill?

>> No.28936424

>>28935999
The call of the elves and ringbearers to Aman is an invitation in the sense that a mob boss might invite you to have dinner with him.

The undying lands are great. They're paradise. They're so paradisical that the elves don't have the option to say no. For the most part, they want to go. Middle Earth has been getting steadily shittier since the First Age, and while the beginning of a new Age always signals things getting better, they never get as better as they used to be and then things start getting worse again. Elves aren't innovators; the High Elves (Noldor) who came from Aman at the beginning of the First Age have spent the last few milennia trying to maintain the pale imitations of what they had in Valinor and constantly losing ground, and the Dark Elves who never lived in Valinor have never been builders at all; by the Third Age they're all ruled by Noldor or Sindar (other dark elves who were heavily influenced by high elves in the First Age and behave more like them then other dark elves)

So Middle Earth doesn't hold much of a future for the elves at all. However, the Valar's call was absolute. In their mind, all this time they've just been tolerating Elves not living with them in Aman, and they've run out of patience. If any elves (or ringbearers) tried to stay in Middle Earth no matter what the Valar did to try and persuade them, they'd probably assassinate them. Elves reincarnate when the god of death allows it, so killing one and then immediately allowing them to reincarnate would be functionally identical to forcing it to sail across the sea.

>> No.28936437

>>28936151
Think devas from 4e.

>> No.28936472

>>28936189
>spirits
Correct, but angels is also accurate.

>> No.28936639

>>28936070
They really are.

>Elves
Act like an obsessed stalker to them, going to great lengths to convince them to live in Valinor and punishing them when they want to leave.

>Dwarves
Their fucking creator, Aule, does jack shit for them after creating them. He made the seven fathers so he would have children to teach, guide, and love, and Illuivatar even adopted them and gave them free will, but as soon as they were taken out of his immediate eyesight Aule forgot all about them and ignored them.

>Men
Valar treat them like insects. They barely acknowledge their existence in Middle Earth and refuse to have anything to do with them in Aman. When a few clans fight alongside them and the Elves against Melkor, they give them superpowers and a cool island, but then immediately forbid them from ever coming into their treehouse because they're afraid of man-cooties or some shit.

The worst part is there's no way to escape them either. The only force that opposes the Valar is Melkor and Sauron. Melkor is psychotic and explicitly wants the children of Illuvitar dead, and Sauron is a sociopath who sees all mortals as either slaves or enemies.

>> No.28936930

Guys, could Elves in Middleearth theorethically grow beards?

>> No.28936984

>>28936639
>they give them superpowers and a cool island

Was this Numenor where Aragorn's line comes from

>> No.28937053

Wait, so let me get this straight: So all magic vanishes from middle earth? Like, all of it?

Why do I see a industrial revolution and guns coming? I mean, was that stuff with the bombs in Helms Deep only P Jackson beeing Jackson, or did it happen in the books too? Its too long since i read the books.
I mean, IF its in the books, i just cant imagine why men should not try to use this new invention, especially with all magic gone

>> No.28937322

>>28936984

Yep.

>> No.28937343

>>28937053

That happened, gunpowder was invented by Saruman and he enhanced it with magic.

>> No.28937386

>>28936930
>Guys, could Elves in Middleearth theorethically grow beards?

yes they grow beards sometimes when they get hella fuckhuge old

>> No.28937458

>>28936984
>Was this Numenor where Aragorn's line comes from

its not just aragorn though. pretty much everyone in gondor and the rangers are descended from numenorians. eg boromir

>> No.28937496

>>28936984
Yes. Humans in Middle Earth are mostly shit; pretty much all of them worship Melkor, because as I mentioned the Valar have to be reminded that they even exist. The few who took part in the fight against Melkor in the first age were given an island in the middle of the ocean and were empowered to be 8 feet tall, live for hundreds of years, and be great at everything compared to other men. However, they banned them from ever setting foot on Aman, because the Valar really do not like humans.

At first, Numenor was great. Its people explored all over Middle Earth, coming as patrons and emissaries. Later, however, the Numenorians started getting upset about the Elves and Valar very obviously treating them like their pets, and things started going downhill. They straight up conquored parts of Middle Earth, and while Elves used to come from Aman to visit, they were at first hated and later shot on sight. When Sauron started making trouble in Middle Earth, the King of Numenor at the time, Ar-Pharazon, pulled together an army and marched on Mordor. Sauron surrendered immediately.

They took him prisoner, but Sauron being Sauron tricked Ar-Pharazon into worshipping Melkor, feeding into his hatred of the Valar. Sauron eventually became Numenor's high priest, and encouraged the degration of Numenor, spreading Melkor worship, and sacrificing any elf-sympathizers on the island.

Eventually Ar-Pharazon decided to attack Aman, which Sauron immediately knew was going to end horribly. He converted his temple into a bunker, locked it down, sat back in his favorite chair, and sipped a drink while he waited for the Valar to end the idiot king.

>> No.28937558

Oh, is Haldir the new inquisitive Frodo meme now?

>> No.28937561

>>28937458
Then why are they so shit?

>> No.28937590

>>28936472
>>28936189
>Correct, but angels is also accurate.
youre both wrong. they are gods. everyone is a god. manwe = god. gandalf = god.

eru made all of them at the same time and all of them had some part in making the world. so gandalf would have used his lesser god powers to make something on planet. same goes for the balrogs.

everyone on the planet other than elves, men and ..i guess the original chunk of mass was made by the valar and maiar at some point

i only ever remember hearing about one specific thing that was made by a maiar, it was conch shells. so its kind of like hitchhikers guide to the galaxy when they meet the guy who designed the new jersey shore

gandalf serves manwe but manwe didnt make him and he actually spent a huge amount of time hanging out with some female valar of sadness or some shit.

>> No.28937599

>>28937496
Sauron underestimated just how much of a fuck-up attacking Aman turned out to be. The Valar didn't attack Ar-Pharazon. Instead, they asked Illuviatar, the literally omnipotent over-god, to fix this shit since humanity is his children.

Illuvitar buried Ar-Pharazon under a landslide, ripped Aman out of the planet and put it in orbit, and sank Numenor to the bottom of the ocean. Sauron drowned and rebuilt himself back in Mordor.

The Numenorians who were loyal to the Valar had gotten out a long time ago, and they set themselves up as the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor. Furthermore, the remainder of the Numenorians who were loyal to the King had set up a city in the south called Umbar, and that became a refuge for any that managed to escape.

>> No.28937626

>>28937561
>Then why are they so shit?

boromir? well hes only one of the greatest single warriors alive on middle-earth at the time and also one of the greatest generals that gondor has ever had.

as for the common folk they have much less badass blood in them. boromir is basically a prince and faramir lived to be around 140 years old. denethor looks so old because his use of the palantir is aging him fast

>> No.28937743

>>28937053
>Why do I see a industrial revolution and guns coming?
Because that was Tolkien's intent.

I'm actually writing a story right now that's set in 1969, where after years of observation, astronauts finally land on Aman. Middle Earth advanced to the Cold War. History remembers the Reunited Kingdom as the Roman Empire, and misremembers everything prior. The bones of elves, dwarves, orcs, etc are known to anthropologists as extinct species of homonids.

The Americans see the utopia of Aman and think they're communist sympathizers, while the Soviets see the monarchical rule and think they're the ultimate bourgeois. At some point the Americans are going to find, rescue, and enlist Melkor, mainly because I want to write scenes with Melkor acting as a foil for Richard Nixon. When the Valar see this, they decide to handle it like they did with Sauron and send a strike team to aid Middle Earth, but they can't send Gandalf and Friends again because Melkor is so much more powerful then them.

They end up reincarnating Feanor. He joins the USSR. I'm not sure if I want him to start WWIII or not.

>> No.28937784

>>28937561
...They're not. Aragorn is the most powerful man alive in the third age. Even Boromir, who's not part of the royal line and whose bloodline has been diluted from many generations of intermarrying with common humans, is still crazy strong.

>> No.28937808

>>28937053
It's actually an origin story for our world. Middle-Earth becomes our Earth. The Fourth Age that begins at the end is what eventually leads into the world that is only ruled by Men. I'll let you decide if that's a happy or sad ending.

>> No.28937817

>>28937626
>>28937784
I mostly meant Gondor as a whole, but got my answers.

>> No.28937846

>>28937817
Gondor isn't very Numenorian at all. Three thousand years of interbreeding will whither the super-chromosomes pretty badly.

Aragorn is the closest to what the Numenorians were like because the Dunedain kept to themselves for the most part (cue banjo music) and because he's part of the royal line, who aren't just supermen but also part elf.

>> No.28937859

>>28937784
>Even Boromir, who's not part of the royal line

boromir is noble. hes basically the prince of gondor and has a strong claim than aragorn. aragors inheritance is to minas morgul since thats the city isildor ran. minas tirith was isildors brothers and no one of that line still lives. thats why stewards run it. denethor knows gandalf is trying to jew him out of leadership of gondor and thats why he hates and doesnt trust him.

aragorns claim on minis tirith is weak as shit (only related to the king of minas tirith on the female side) and the true rulers of the city are the stewards

ganalf wanted aragorn as king though so he could use him as a rallying point for all the men of middle earth. "return of the king!" was basically a slogan he used to renew the fighting spirit of men

>> No.28937872

>>28937808
Tolkien didn't seem to think so. It was one of the reasons he never botherd writing much further. It would have been like Game of Thrones with less magic.

>> No.28937958

>>28937859
Everything you just said is wrong.

Aragorn is a direct descendent of Isildur, who was the High King of Gondor and Arnor just like his father Elendil. Minas Ithil was just where Isildur set up when Elendil was still alive. Minas Ithil/Anor aren't independant entities at all; they're fortresses meant to protect the real capitol of Gondor in the Second Age: Osgilliath, where Isildur and Anarian ruled together under Elendil, who lived in the north in Arnor.

After Isildur died, Gondor and Arnor split into seperate kingdoms and started their own royal lines. Arnor's was wiped out by the Angmar when the Witch King attacked, and the nation collapsed. Gondor's died out during civil war and was replaced by the Stewards, who held power until an heir to the throne could be found.

Boromir has no right to any throne, and never did. He's descended from Numenorians, but Gondor mixed bloods and it's been so long that genetically Boromir is no better than any other man.

>> No.28937988

>>28937590
Maiar are not gods. Even Ainur and Valar are not gods.

Only god is Eru.

>> No.28938028

>>28937859

Boromir was not of noble blood, therefore could be nothing more than a steward. Aragon could trace his lineage directly back to the line of kings in Minas Tirith, therefore Aragorn actually had a claim to the throne. Learn how succession works.

>> No.28938054

I've always wanted to steal the overarching theme of the LOTR universe for a campaign setting- that everything started in a very vague, nonsense way, made almost entirely out of metaphors and thoughtform, then collapsed into reality. Reverse entropy, if you will.

>> No.28938063

>>28937958
>Everything you just said is wrong.

i dont know why you say that since everything you just said agrees with me. there is no one of anarions line left, so the city is ran by the stewards, who are still of noble blood. so the rightful rulers of minas tirith are the stewards of which boromir is set to take over once denethor dies. aka the steward equivalent of prince

>Boromir is no better than any other man.
so every common man is living to be 140 years old now and has magic prophesy dreams and can fight a small army of uruks to a near stand still?

you came on strong but petered out

>> No.28938068

>>28937958
Thank fucking god. Someone who knows his shit.

>> No.28938083

>>28938028
the line of minas tirith is dead. and yes boromir is of noble blood, so is faramir and denethor. do you mean to say hes not related to anarion?

>> No.28938142

>>28938063
>living to be 140 years old
Boromir was 41 when he died.
>can fight a small army of uruks
Plot armor's a crazy thing.
>the rightful rulers of minas tirith are the stewards
Minas Tirith is not an independant political entity. It is a city within Gondor. Isildur was not king of Minas Ithil, he was High King of Gondor and Arnor. Aragorn has claim to Isildur's right, which is all of Arnor and all of Gondor.

Boromir, on the other hand, has claim to the office of stewardship, which means the rule of Gondor until such time as an heir to the throne might be found. He has no right to the throne of Gondor at all, let alone the thrones of Gondor and Arnor together.

>> No.28938183

>>28937743
If you're writing Feanor and he doesn't destroy everything for everyone forever then you aren't really writing Feanor.

>> No.28938211

>>28938142
>Boromir was 41 when he died.

i was afraid of this, you didnt read the thread. anyway like i already said, faramir lived to be around 140. are you just getting all this from wiki you faggot?

>Plot armor's a crazy thing.
yeah ok, his plot armor to die. boromir was a fucking living legend of the time in middle-earth. like i already said, hes stated to be one of the greatest warriors alive and one of the best generals gondor has ever had. now im sure youre just a wikifag

>Minas Tirith is not an independant political entity
isildor and anarion split up their kinddoms when daddy died, isildor took arnor (which is why aragorn is from there) and anarion ruled gondor as king. all the line of anarion is dead. aragorn can go be king of arnor if he feels like it, but not gondor

gondor has not king, gondor needs no king. boromir wasnt blowing smoke. fuck off and go actually read the books

>> No.28938214

>>28938183
The question is, does America have his goddamn motherfucking cock-sucking tit-shitting Silmarils?

If y, America is fucked

>> No.28938287

>>28936930
Yes, Cirdan had a beard. But he was really old even by elven standarts. He was a Firstborn, he was one of the first elves which were created.

>> No.28938294

>>28938287
i wonder if it feels weird to never have been a child. to never have had parents at all

>> No.28938300

>Quit /tg/ because traditional game discussion of any value became really hard to find and not worth the sheer effort to find maybe one or two good threads
>Come back six months later
>Quest shit still contaminating the board, LotR left and right, what little discussion about actual games there is is mostly retards talking about retarded shit
See ya in another six months

It'll be even worse, because this board is rotten to the core, but I may as well hope

>> No.28938307

I think we can all agree that Castamir was the one true King of Gondor.

No king of mixed blood can hold the crown of Numenor.

>> No.28938312

>>28938300
You won't be missed.

>> No.28938313

>>28938142
>Plot armor's a crazy thing.
holy fuck im still made at this. how the god damn are you going to act like some lore expert while saying something like this?

please respond with "epic troll XD" or something so i can feel better knowing no one really thinks this about boromir

>> No.28938329

>>28938300
>>28938312

yeah and next time dont go though the trouble of making another post

>> No.28938337

>>28938313
>made
>mad

>> No.28938359

>>28937859
Dude, Aragorn was the king of kings in Middle Earth. The only way there'd be a more pure and ancient bloodline is if there'd been some kind of ancient elf king, but they dont' really roll that way and were on the way out anyways.

>> No.28938364

>>28938300
>I will return just in time for summer and make the same post because fuck trends and current events

Great plan, Anon.

>> No.28938371

>>28938063
I think you're confused about who people are in this book.

>> No.28938415

>>28938359
isildor gives up the kingdom of gondor to his brothers line. his brothers line is now all dead

why do i have to keep saying the same things over and over and over in the same thread? does no one read the thread before posting?

i wont to just stop and let you all be wrong and awful all the time...but what would tolkien think?

if denethor or boromir was still alive you better believe aragorn wouldnt just roll up in gondor and take over as "king". faramir was just a pussy and half dead when shit was going down anyway

>> No.28938423

>>28938300
>stay away from /tg/ for six months
>come back
>omg it's shit
>shitpost

way to be a part of the solution bro

>> No.28938439

>>28938371
>I think you're confused about who people are in this book.
please enlighten me. if you are going to be the second epic anon to point out that boromir didnt actually live to be 140, i know. faramir did, my point was that boromir had the capacity to and is no "normal man"

>> No.28938458

>>28938415
I think this is mostly a case of not understanding the rules of feudal succession, which is what is going on in the story. Aragorn is the last living member of the royal family, and therefore has a claim to the kingdom. There is a reason Denethor still sits in the little chair at the base of the throne even though there hasnt been a king in ages

>> No.28938500

>>28938415
If Boromir and Denethor were both still alive they would not have had sufficient clout to resist the popular acclamation of Elessar, King of the Northmen and savior of Minas Tirith, who by rights commanded the dead to strike down the Corsairs of Umbar, and who sailed with his army of Numenorean blood to rescue the White City from Sauron's armies in the nick of time.

If Boromir alone were still alive he might have been further convinced that fate was at work after Aragorn brought his brother back to life with Numenorean healing magic, preserved as the secret wisdom of the kings of men.

If Denethor alone were still alive then he would not have been the same Denethor we knew in the story, because that Denethor was broken by despair and by the deceits of the Enemy.

>> No.28938503

>>28938458
aragorn simply doesnt have a claim to gondor. are you reading what im typing? isildor gave up his claim to gondor and instead only ruled arnor as king. his brothers line ruled gondor as king. his brothers line is all dead. denethor is steward, yes i know its not king, he rules in the kings absence. and all the kings are dead. the stewards will rule forever.

or they would have if denethor and boromir didnt die and faramir bitched out and got power played by gandalf and aragorn

>> No.28938566

>>28938500
hey an anon who knows what the fuck hes talking about.

yeah i agree, gandalf was scheming like a mother fucker to railroad denethor out of office. again its why denethor didnt like gandalf or aragorn, he was wise to what they wanted to do. usurp leadership of gondor

boromir didnt like aragorn because he was pretty much a coward living in the woods, but once he found his balls and manned up i think boromir would have respected him enough to hand over leadership.

i agree with you and i like you

>> No.28938573

>>28938503
All members of the royal house are in the line of succession, regardless of their personal realms or any divisons of power. The splitting of gondor and arnor only means that isildurs branch are not the direct heirs of gondor, and would only inherit if the gondorian line died out completely, which it did. Once again, as aragorn the last member of the royal family, he has a claim on the throne of gondor.

>> No.28938582

>>28937743
Melkor would have been greatly weakened due to his actions of infusing the world with his darkness, though.

And how would men access his prison? It's literally outside creation.

>> No.28938604

>>28935466
I think Boromir picking the ring up was a movie only addition.

>> No.28938617

>>28938211

Stop being a fanboy.
Even Boromir saw the truth.
Anarion and Isildur are siblings, through their father, Aragorn has a claim to Anarion's throne.
Boromir has no blood relation to Elendil.
This is the way succession works.

Also, your poor spelling, grammar and reasoning leads me to believe my captcha is a prophet

"trallwar loosed"

>> No.28938629

>>28938500
Why didn't Aragorn use Numenorean healing magic on Boromir?

>> No.28938644

>>28938503
So according to you if my brother dies and then his kids die I or my kids don't get his stuff?

>> No.28938660

>>28938629

Too late to fix him

>> No.28938663

>>28938573
>he has a claim on the throne of gondor

a stronger claim than the ruling stewards? why didnt the line of isildor take over as king earlier? why didnt denethor consider aragor a true king? denethor was pretty serious about his duties as steward. its why they still hadnt just taken over as kings for ...like a thousand years or something?

>king boromir

how awesome

>> No.28938676

>>28938629
Faramir was sick from his wounds, Boromir was all stabbed to fuck and sliced into little stewardling pieces

>> No.28938679

>>28938663
Denethor was completely fucking insane as well and the stewards had an oath to vacate from power once the line of kings returns.

>> No.28938680

>>28938644
>So according to you if my brother dies and then his kids die I or my kids don't get his stuff?

ummm yeah you dont. where are you from?

>> No.28938692

>>28938503
I didn't know it was possible to be this autistically patriotic about a country that doesn't exist.

>> No.28938706

>>28938629

It only heals damage done by Numenorean necromantic magic. Morgul wraith-knives, the Black Breath. It might have been able to heal the paralysis-or-maybe-death that the Barrow Wights inflicted on the Hobbits, but we'll never know; Tom Bombadil set them right without any Numenorean power at all.

>> No.28938709

>>28938676
Makes sense.

Arrows in chest cavity is not fun times.

>> No.28938717

>>28938663
The stewards have 0 claim to the throne of gondor. Regardless of the quality of their service or the practicality of their rule, they have no greater claim to the throne than any peasant in the city. Again this is fuedal succession, not an intelligent meritocracy

>> No.28938719

>>28938680
So then everything my brother owned (lets assume his wife died) just what, goes to some random asshole? Even if he has no kids to give it to?

>> No.28938754

>>28938717
i was originally just talking about leadership of gondor.

but of course the stewards could just "say" they are kings one day. no one is around to stop them or say otherwise and the stewardship is already hereditary. they know that the line of the true king is dead so why now just take over?

>> No.28938755

>>28938717
In all honesty, the probably deserve the throne more than Aragorn, but that is unfortunately irrelevant

>> No.28938763

>>28938719
>So then everything my brother owned (lets assume his wife died) just what, goes to some random asshole? Even if he has no kids to give it to?

it goes to the state if he had no will. otherwise it goes to whoever he wanted it to in the will

>> No.28938768

>>28938754
If the royal line was extinct, which it isn't the still wouldn't have a legal right to proclaim themselves kings. I doubt anyone would care to much if they did, but it would still be technically illegitimate

>> No.28938787

>>28938663
>why didnt denethor consider aragor a true king?
You're asking why the guy who had his mind poisoned through and through by Sauron would have some issues with Aragorn?

Well, I dunno, maybe because Sauron has ensured that the guy will be so wrapped up in despair and paranoia that anything which could help will be distrusted and rejected?

>> No.28938792

>>28937743
...
that plot.
Pic related.

>> No.28938793

>>28938763
Yeah in our modern society. But in a feudal society things like that are passed through blood. Isildur's brother had no heirs but Isildur did, making Aragorn the rightful king of Gondor and Arnor.

>> No.28938801

>>28938768
>still wouldn't have a legal right to proclaim themselves kings

im aware. again my point is just that no one could or would stop them from doing it

the line of the actual king of gondor is dead. aragorn is of royal blood from elendil but the original kingdom he ruled is gone. even when elendil was still alive he moved to arnor

>> No.28938803

Look, if Brand II, grandson of Bard the Bowman, had sailed down Anduin with a force of fierce battle-hardened Arnorian rangers and had saved Gondor and all of Middle Earth by killing the armies of the literal incarnation of evil, and said "oh hey so back when my grandpa was a city guard there were these rumors that we were descended from the Kings of Men and related to the Line of Elendil by marriage or something" then he'd have had his claim to Gondor "recognized" by popular acclamation too.

Hell, if DAIN IRONFOOT had saved Middle Earth like that he might have ended up King of Men.

>> No.28938808

It says in the appendices, that after the War of the Rings, the elves of Lorien and Mirkwood cleared out Dol Guldur, and expanded their realms.

Celeborn is stated to have left, along with most of the Lorien elves. But no mention is made of Thranduil or his kin leaving, besides Legolas.

So did the wood elves stay behind?

>> No.28938822

>>28937590

No they are not Gods

Valar = Powers of the world
Maia = Helpers of the Valar

Eru/Illuvatar is the only real God in the setting

>> No.28938827

>>28938793
>Yeah in our modern society. But in a feudal society things like that are passed through blood. Isildur's brother had no heirs but Isildur did, making Aragorn the rightful king of Gondor and Arnor.

actually it was passed to the stewards(aka the state), thats why they started ruling

checkmate usurpers

>> No.28938833

>>28938801
Probably you are right, no one would have cared much considering how long the throne had been empty, but thats not the discussion. Aragorn had a legitimate claim, backed by ridiculous public approval following his badassery fighting sauron. And an army. And Gandalf. And all the stewards were dead except faramir who was still recovering and owed aragorn his life

>> No.28938853

>>28938827
The stewards never inherited a claim on the throne, which is why the still called themselves stewards even after so much time had passed. Also they were honourable fuckers

>> No.28938856

>>28938822
eh if you want to be an autistic argumentative asshole i guess you could make that point

but really eru is the overgod and everyone else are gods. just like in the forgotten realms setting, which is where the got the idea for it the first place

>> No.28938863

>>28938808
Yes, and as a result they faded.

The "fading" of the elves isn't just a matter of low population, it's what happens when hroa and fea merge with the Song of the Ainur.

Tolkien wrote a lot of very strange, very technical pieces on the ways an elf soul interacts with both the elf's body and the environment around him, and I don't really trust myself to elaborate further.

>> No.28938865

>>28938822
They are exactly the same as gods in D&D and incarnae in Exalted, though.

They just aren't the Judaeo-Christian God, but they're certainly gods.

>> No.28938868

>>28937743
awhile later, mcdonalds is run by orcs

>> No.28938870

>>28938853
they inherited the leadership of gondor though. becoming the ruling stewards

>> No.28938872

>>28938808
It's possible. I think Tolkien wrote that some of those that stayed behind gave rise to legends of Faeries and other old-world stuff. They would probably all have faded away before the Fifth-Sixth Age (in other words, the 20th Century), though.

>> No.28938878

>>28938566

>This is /tg/ high on /pol/

>> No.28938880

How come in Desolation of Smaug, Tauriel heals Kili?

Legolas should have done it, since the hands of king are the hands of a healer.

>> No.28938899

>>28938872
>>28938863

I think that since the Wood Elves removed the Shadow over Greenwood, it was still tolerable to live there, for a time. But without the Three, Lorien lost it's wonderful timelessness.

>> No.28938920

>>28938870
They didn't inherit it. The role of the house of stewards is to rule while the king is away. They simply performed their assigned duties for a ridiculous length of time. As I said, honourable fuckers

>> No.28938921

>>28938880

Healing is woman's work.
Killing is the only respectable manly occupation.

>> No.28938938

>>28938921

What? No. Aragorn healing is what really sets him as the rightful king.

>> No.28938939

>>28938763

Goddamn, what kind of a statist backwater do you live in, dude?

Unless otherwise stated in a will, all belongings should go to his nearest family members.

>> No.28938954

>>28938921
"The hands of the king are healer's hands."

Every ruler in Middle Earth is as much of a healer as they are a warrior.

>> No.28938956

>>28938899

Said timelessness was what allowed it to persist for more than an Age, and what allowed Elves who had walked since the time of the Trees to live there without their bodies withering and their souls melting out and merging with their environment.

>> No.28938959

>>28938880
Cos its a movie, and the plot was poorly thought
out

>> No.28938964

>>28938921
got dammit dernhelm get yer shit together

>> No.28938966

>>28938920
>They didn't inherit it. The role of the house of stewards is to rule while the king is away

right and the line of the king is dead. therefor they would rule forever

>> No.28938968

>>28938827

It was not passed to the stewards, numbnut. The stewards existed during the king's rule, too. It was not theirs, they were only allowed to govern in the King's absence.

>> No.28938983

>>28938966
Ive said repeatedly the line is not dead, Aragorn is the legitimate heir, not direct but still valid

>> No.28938992

>>28938968
they become "ruling stewards" once all the kings died. read the rest of the thread

>> No.28939003

>Guy with the reforged blade that cut off Saurans fucking finger and won the war literally and single handedly saves your city, the race of men and rallies all men to his side on top of commanding an army of ghosts.
>Dispute his right to rule as king
Pretty sure whoever did that would get thrown off the cliff as well.

>> No.28939015

>>28938966
Aragorn is a direct descendant of Anárion because of the marriage between Arvedui and Fíriel. He is the rightful king to both Arnor and Gondor.

>> No.28939030

>>28939003
Dude we are not arguing the practicalities, we are arguing legitimacy. Winning a war does not grant a legitimate claim to a throne.

>> No.28939034

>>28938966

Except it wasn't, you wilfully ignorant tard.

>> No.28939041

>>28939030
To hell with legitimacy. Fear of never finding the true king bound them to inaction and into the hands of evil.

>> No.28939061

How about playing somewhere other than the NW corner of Middle Earth? You can make your own version of LOTR.

>> No.28939075

>>28938983
>not direct but still valid

according to who? you? aragorn became king by playing the popularity card and getting everyone to be cool with him being king. hell there is even a lot of the plot of the book dealing with this. aragorn doesnt really have enough of a claim to walk in and say "hand over the crown" but hes got a lot of minor things going for him that build up enough for him to just make a grab for it.

why do you think boromor didnt immediately knee in the presence of the true king of gondor when he found out about him? because aragorn isnt the rightful king. boromir and denethor know he has some bs claim to it though and is going to try to play his hand and thats why they dont like him.

really its gandalfs fault because even aragorn doesnt want to be king of gondor

>> No.28939082

>>28939061

>> No.28939084

>>28938992

>And this means anything

Just becuase you put ruling in front of it does not make them any more legitimate than they were before.

They are little more than peasants, and until all the lands of Gondor are burned and forgotten, the claim is Aragorn's line.

>> No.28939086

>>28938954

I suppose you are right.

Mairon the Great is by rights King of the World; the fathers of all Houses of Men swore themselves and their children to his Master when they walked in the First Darkness, and the Renegades who joined the Elves and became the Houses of the Edain only stood in rebellion for the span of an Age or two before they renewed their oaths. The Elendili have no legitimacy; their true king, Ar-Pharazon, still rests in Avallónë, and his knee was bent to Mairon and to Mairon's liege.

And by Mairon the wounds of the world shall be healed, and the Golden King restored from Avallónë; war shall cease forever, and woe and wound and weeping shall have no place, for even death shall have no power over the servants of Mairon the Great, servant of the Strong.

>> No.28939087

>>28939015
And even if that's not enough for you Isildur officially ruled Gondor after his brothers death for a year.

>> No.28939093

>>28939015
>Aragorn is a direct descendant of Anárion because of the marriage between Arvedui and Fíriel. He is the rightful king to both Arnor and Gondor.

on the female side. i said that already and its a piss poor claim

>> No.28939106

>>28939082

>> No.28939112

>>28939030

Except that's the only way royal lines ever emerged.

>> No.28939118

>>28939061
The hell is that landmass to the east of everything?

(Also shouldn't it be attached to Fantasy-Asia since it's Europe and all)

>> No.28939123

>>28939106

>> No.28939124

>>28939075
According, once again, to the rules of succession. Aragorn is the last member of the royal house, and therefore has the only legitimate claim to the throne

>> No.28939127

>>28939061

That NE corner looks mighty interesting.

>Mountain range bigger than the Mistys
>River longer than Anduin
>Forests greater than Mirkwood

>> No.28939128

>>28939084
>They are little more than peasants

why does everyone keep saying this? are you mixing up the words noble and royal?

the steward were not of royal blood but they were defiantly of noble blood

>> No.28939134

>>28939093
It's still better than Faramir's.

>> No.28939136

>>28939075

According to the way feudalist succession works, dimwit.

Maybe Denethor's line was the best thing to happen to Gondor since its conception.
That's nice. If you're a faggot.
It does not give them any right to the throne of Gondor.

>> No.28939144

>>28939124
This. I get the guy arguing for the stewards has a boner for Boromir but fuck, this is getting old.

>> No.28939147

>>28939015
>Fíriel
>"She Who Died"
Her parents must have been a laugh at parties.

>> No.28939148

>>28939118
A few MERP products touch on some of these areas; otherwise it's totally speculation.

Speaking of MERP: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/bstk8yrbao5vu/MERP

>>28939123

>> No.28939161

>>28939148

>> No.28939166

>>28939075

>yfw this is Faramir sitting behind his screen
>Neckbeard fully grown
>He and Eowyn both gotten fat
>She regrets ever marrying the slob
>Oh well, at least she managed to cuckold him withAragorn's kids
>Faramir is screaming at his screen with impotent rage
>The Istari conspiracy is why I'm not a winner

>> No.28939171

>>28939148
Yo, could you upload the full version to /hr/, please? It looks great.

>> No.28939173

>>28939161

>> No.28939178

>>28939134
An ancient deific being said Aragorn's claim to the throne was legit.

Kinda hard to argue with the voice of god when dealign with rule by divine right..

>> No.28939186

>>28939136
stop talking about the throne. im talking about leadership. they rule in the absence of the king. there is no king. the stewards rule

aragorn can piss off back to the ruins he rules. why am i even having this argument for so long? one of the plots of the book is that aragorn doesnt have a stone hard claim to the throne.

go read the book. it makes my point for me

im going to sleep

>> No.28939205

>>28939171
This is the only version of this map I have. I'll start a LOTR map thread on /hr/ though, for the hell of it.

>> No.28939212

>>28939166
>Istari conspiracy

holy shit. someone make a considering istari .jpg

the outline of a wizards hat instead of a jew nose?

>> No.28939222

>>28939186
There is a king though, Aragorn's the king. That's why the last book is called "The Return of the King".

>> No.28939223

>>28939186
There is no king. Aragorn claims, legitimately, that he is king. Now there is a king and the stewards fuck off, job done.

>> No.28939233

>>28939212
>considering
i mean conspiring of course

>> No.28939235

>>28939086
Nice. Sauron for President.

>> No.28939236

LOTR Map Thread, all welcome: >>>/hr/1998335

>> No.28939240

>>28939212

Where are that Balrog's wings?

>> No.28939250

>>28939240

Here we go...

>> No.28939251

>>28939236

>> No.28939254

>>28939235

Sauron talks nice. Just like Saruman.

>> No.28939265

>>28939236
I love you. You may have my first-born. Or second-born if the first one is meh.

>> No.28939275

>>28939250

It says that "his wings stretched out". Checkmate.

>> No.28939287

>>28939186

Except their leadership means dick when there is a man with a claim to the throne.
Which there is.
It's Aragorn. Which an entire two books were about.

It's not that he did not have a claim. It's that he had to prove his claim.
Given your grasp of grammar and spelling, though, I imagine it went over your head.
You should probably stick to something written by Salvatore.

>> No.28939288

>>28939212
>REMOVE MAIAR

>> No.28939294

>>28939275
Its wings are made of shadow.

You can't see shadows when it's already dark, and light makes them go away, so they're invisible.

>> No.28939300

>>28939288

Since a dwarf don't gravitate towards evil, they benefit from Lembas just as much as elves do.

>> No.28939302

>>28939288
I love you

>> No.28939314

>>28939294

They said "like" in the first passage. The second passage mentioning the Balrog has a much more physical connotation.

>> No.28939325

>>28939294
When Gimil first sees the Nazgul riding a winged Fell Beast, he thinks it might be a balrog. This is a very strange thing to think if the balrog he saw didn't have wings.

>> No.28939350

>>28939186
You have brain problems and do not understand Feudalism or LotR.

>> No.28939361

>>28935579
Well, the LotR movie was certainly not a traditional game. Neither were the books.

>> No.28939376

>>28939361
It inspired D&D. The most recognizable traditional game and continues to inspire.

>> No.28939387

>>28939361

More /tg/ than ERP general #371

>> No.28939395

>>28939387
Why those and the smut threads continue to exist is beyond me, the smut threads in particular are pure /lit/.

>> No.28939400

>>28939376
Er, Tolkien/D&D crossovers are obscenely popular, but it definitely didn't inspire D&D.

>> No.28939403

>>28939376
Inspiration is not the same as a thing.

>>28939387
ERP is as /tg/ related as DnD.

>> No.28939412

>>28939403

No. It's not "traditional" gaming. It's pure /soc/ shit.

>> No.28939427

>>28939400
Ahh lol. No you are factually incorrect in every way. Try harder

>> No.28939449

>>28939412
So is DnD then.

>> No.28939458

>>28939148
I'll be honest, some of MERP's attempts at worldbuilding kind of veneers off into weird-ass acid trip fanfiction to me.

>pic not only related, but more or less illustrates everything I'm talking about

I do like the use of the Nazgul as central antagonists, though, giving Sauron a more shadowy chessmaster role.

>> No.28939461

>>28939395
I believe smut threads still exist because of a single person.

>> No.28939465

>>28939449

No, no its not. ERP generals are people advertising on f-list. The /d/ related discussion doesn't make it any better, since this is a blue board.

>> No.28939467

>>28939427
Nope, I thought everyone on /tg/ was already aware that Tolkien did not inspire D&D.

Gygax is on record pointing out how D&D is abysmal for running LotR stuff, the elves have fuck all to do with LotR (how many short elven wizards are there in LotR again?), and that the Tolkien stuff was just put in there to get the fandom.

Which worked, apparently.

>> No.28939479

>>28939465
So? GameFinder threads are just people advertising on roll20. And there's rarely any related discussion in there other than "I'm a noob lol wot do i play?"

>> No.28939481

>>28939458
My least favorite part of MERP was their lame fanfic about the Istari creating fucking Harry Potter wizarding schools. Immediately put the book back on the shelf.

If I wanted to play a wizard who learned magic at school... that's what D&D's there for.

>> No.28939486

>>28939458
That's why I love it myself. Playing with the Tolkien sandbox can have some crazy results.

>> No.28939487

>>28939467

You'd be a fool to deny the influence LOTR has on not only fantasy, but DND. The hobbits/halflings.

Fuck, 2E elves lived for thousands of years, before they sailed off to the undying lands.

>> No.28939489

>>28939467
Gygax can say what he likes, the fact remains that LoTR established the character/racial
archetypes that DnD, as well as basically all subsequent fantasy, were based on.

>> No.28939495

>>28939479

Those are bad and should be removed too. But don't move the goalposts. ERP generals are in this same vein, and really don't belong.

>> No.28939504

>>28939487
>You'd be a fool to deny the influence LOTR has on not only fantasy
Right, because LotR wasn't based on anything at all? It's not like people could have used the same fucking source material that Tolkein did.

>> No.28939511

>>28939489
Well, it inspired dwarves and halflings.

2 out of 5 isn't bad.

>> No.28939517

>>28939495
Nah, GameFinders are great. Without it I wouldn't have a group right now, so I vote they stay. Let the dickgirl-fanboys have their equivalent, at least they contain it to one thread.

>> No.28939521

>>28939504

What this have to do with the argument? This is about LOTR's influence on DND. Don't try to crudely segue into something that suits your argument.

>> No.28939524

>>28939481
That's not fanfic, Tolkien himself said the Blue Wizards taught magic to others when they traveled to the east

>> No.28939532

>>28939504

His work is so far altered from the source material that, while you can see what his sources WERE, you can also see that the primary source for the vast majority of Tolkienesque fantasy is Tolkien's work.

Next you'll be telling me that Twilight fanfic is based on vampire folklore.

>> No.28939534

>>28939511
Elves and orcs. Before Tolkien, elves=fairies. Before Tolkien orcs=what the fuck is that word you just said? He invented orcs and made elves into the tall, androgynous not-quite-humans they are today

>> No.28939535

>>28939524
I seriously doubt it.

>> No.28939545

>>28939524
I don't think he was quite thinking of anything resembling Hogwarts when he wrote that though. I was under the impression they were more along the lines of pagan cults and the like.

>> No.28939552

>>28939534
And indeed, D&D elves are directly based off fairies.

To the point that in Chainmail, elves were the same exact thing as what pixies are now, and had to be toned down power-wise to make them playable -- but they still had echoes of it.

Again, where do you think short, childlike wizards come from? Sure as fuck isn't LotR.

>> No.28939569

>>28939136
No, medieval succession works like this:

A) More nobles like me.
or
B) I have a bigger army.

Then after a bloody war where a great deal of your erstwhile subjects are mercilessly slaughtered, you get to enjoy a life of intrigue, schemes, peasant/noble revolts and usurpers.

That's if you win. If you lose, you better die in battle or run away because nobody makes songs about "Farathor, the Blind and Disemboweled".

>> No.28939571

>>28939552
No one is claiming that DnD is a direct copy of tolkien's universe, only the painfully obvious fact that DnD is a tolkienesque fantasy

>> No.28939583

>>28939569
Lol thats how it works in practice, but that wasn't the argument

>> No.28939600

>>28939521
>This is about LOTR's influence on DND
Yes, and I'm saying that fantasy in general (and someone else brought that up, not me) is inspired by the source material and many other things, not just LotR. The same goes for DnD unless you can point out Gygax saying he used only LotR as a source.

>>28939532
It's not that far altered. It's called Middle Earth, it has alfar (elves), it has svartalfar (dwarfs), it has men and gods and all that jazz. Sure, it's different, but not different enough to say everyone uses him rather than the source. Sure, people will use Tolkein, but a lot of writers look to an author's source and then write, unless it's fanfic.

And you can't deny without vampires there'd be no Twilight and therefore no Twilight fanfic, even if the vampires are different.

>> No.28939605

>>28939552
Not to mention, in the original PHB, elves couldn't become druids or rangers. The D&D elves are just nerfed pixies, their all the time invisibility became mere stealth, instead of their magic sleeping shot arrows, they got regular magic user stuff. Bam.

Of course, EVENTUALLY they became Legolas, due to the LotR fandom getting to exercise full control. But that's why generally you see at least some sort of distinction between the wizardy as fuck elves and the natury as fuck elves -- totally different origins. The nature lovin' tall archer elves are weird fanfic immigrants.

>> No.28939617

>>28939571
>only the painfully obvious fact that DnD is a tolkienesque fantasy

In the same sense D&D is the Little Mermaid since it has mermaids, I suppose.

>> No.28939625

>>28939605
Orcs man, to all intents and purposes they were directly lifted from tolkien. Orcs did not exist before LoTR, and DnD orcs are almost identical to tolkien orcs

>> No.28939642

>>28939625

That's absolutely, indisputably true, the antagonists are borrowed from everywhere and everything. Judaeo-Christianity, Greek myth, and whatever fun thing a game developer looked at recently, and so forth. Usually directly, especially in the case of Hammer horror monsters.

>> No.28939656

>>28935766
How very refugee like actully.

>> No.28939658

>>28939642
Though, again, just because it has monsters ripped straight from Hammer horror movies, I wouldn't say that Dungeons and Dragons is a game based off old black and white horror movies. Even though it fits about as well as saying its Tolkienian.

>> No.28939672

>>28939642
Ah this is pointless. Far as i can tell we agree on the specifics and only differ in how important the
specific influence was. So i'l save the argument and just concede. Congratulations

>> No.28939674

The worst thing about the this universe is the Valar, and the undying lands.

Even after Men are named the children of Iluvatar by Iluvatar himself, they're just continually sent to die and are refused to enter the valar's special club. Even after one of them screwed the entire earth up for everyone else, they just couldn't be fucked fixing the problem once Melkor was gone. I really feel like it goes unsaid that the Valar haven't ever done anything for the humans, like they have the elves.

The only good Valar is Oman, but he's also the person that killed the Numenorians for trying to achieve immortality, which is in their nature granted to them by the big boss god itself. So what the fuck?

>> No.28939695

>>28939625
>Orcs did not exist before LoTR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)#Tolkien.27s_influences

The man took goblins and called them orcs.

>> No.28939698

>>28939672
Yup. From now on I will refer to D&D as that indie B&W horror movie RPG.

>> No.28939712

>>28939674
>Humans get to go to actual heaven with God, of whom Illuvatar is nothing but a pale reflection
>"refused to enter the valar's special club"

>> No.28939713

>>28939674
Well, Men are send onward to a place only Eru knows of, while the Ainur and Elves are kind of stuck in Arda. If anything, they're probably a little jealous.

>> No.28939715

>>28939695
Yup. They have like, 8 or so different palette shifted evil humanoids with minor differences: Kobolds, goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, gnolls, and so forth.

Gnolls man. To fill the blank, they took a name they thought they heard somewhere, and guessed it meant some kind of gnome-troll hybrid. Then somebody guessed it meant hyena man.

>> No.28939719

>>28939600

There was no real difference in most people's minds between elves, dwarves, trolls, ogres (likely source of orc), et al.

Until Tolkien made Elves and Dwarves and Trolls seperate races. He made Orcs a race. The fact that there are Orcs in fantasy at all is 100% due to Tolkien. The enmity between ageless elves and orcs? Tolkien. Ageless elves that have a special place they go when they 'died'? Tolkien. Dwarves wielding axes? Tolkien.

Gygax said a lot of shit and edited a lot of shit because he was being sued by the Tolkien estate. In fact, the majority of the differences between D&D and Tolkien are because of that lawsuit.

>> No.28939738

>>28939719
>In fact, the majority of the differences between D&D and Tolkien are because of that lawsuit.

Elves being, mechanically speaking, pixies predates D&D and was around in Chainmail.
I'll definitely grant that dorfs are 100% based off Gimli and Gimli only, and similarly with hobbits.

D&D would be exactly the same thing without orcs, though.

>> No.28939763

>>28939719
>There was no real difference in most people's minds between elves, dwarves, trolls, ogres (likely source of orc), et al.
I'm perfectly happy to admit that Gygax used Tolkein, but this shit I will not stand. Elves and Dwarfs were very different creatures in the eddas and while trolls and ogres may be seen as the same thing, goblins and elves can also be attributed to light and dark elves.

You could say that all the fantasy races are just different types of elf, but they weren't all the same. They were separate things before Tolkein. And as pointed out earlier, Orcs are simply Goblins renamed (he wanted to go with demons, so took the god of the underworld Orcus because he liked the sound of it), and gobbos have been fantasy before Tolkein.

>> No.28939800

>>28939763
I think the important idea here is that tolkien took all the old stories and myths and shit and made them into a consistent fantasy narrative, which became the basis for the public perception of fantasy ever since

>> No.28939833

>>28939800
But no, because there's plenty of fantasy that doesn't take Tolkein's depictions of the fantasy world. Sure, the Elder Scrolls has Orcs (which are nothing like Tolkein orcs), but their elves are different, as are their dwarfs and then there's new shit.
There's Pratchett, which has Tolkein Dwarves but then all sorts of other fantasy races from folklore.
GRRM has none of it.
CS Lewis has none of it.
And these are all big names in fantasy. A lot of fantasy is folklore, not Tolkein. Bad fantasy is Tolkein ripoffs.

>> No.28939851

>>28939833
I would argue that elder scrolls orcs and elves are extremely similar to their tolkien equivalents, especially if compared to anything pre-tolkien. CS lewis was contemporary with tolkien, so doesn't count very much, and pratchett is so awesome he is exempt from everything forever. I dont know what GRRM is :(

>> No.28939899

>>28935526
>Finrod Felagund, greatest king to ever live
>even remotely relevant on /tv/

You should've said /lit/. At least then it could have been a semi-believable claim

>> No.28939904

>>28939851
Tolkein Orcs are very much like goblins: small, weak willed, weak of body and pure evil; TES Orcs are big, burly smiths who like a good honourable fight to the death and are very tight nit tribal groups.
Tolkein Elves are beautiful, eloquent and kind. TES elves are arrogant, alien-looking and downright hostile to anyone who isn't an elf.

Pratchett is sure awesome, but he's certainly not without influence, because almost every book contains a different British monster or other, with a few from other places when the characters aren't by the circle sea.
Narnia was certainly written after LotR was finished and a long time after the Hobbit, so was close but not quite contemporary.
And GRRM being the guy who wrote Game of Thrones, which is low fantasy compared to the others, I'll admit.

>> No.28939917

>>28936053
>this nigga didn't even get his Appendices on
Arwen dies shortly after Aragorn dies, nigga.

>> No.28939930

>>28937496
>because as I mentioned the Valar have to be reminded that they even exist.
You've got it backwards, son. It's the Men who are dismissive of the great powers, not vice versa.
Proper Men respect the Valar, dipshit.

>> No.28939943

>>28937846
>but also part elf.
and part Maia, via Melian. Aragorn is literally angelic, nigga.

That's why that whole line has a healing gimmick, nigga. Elrond, Aragorn, etc.
>muh Melian

>> No.28939955

>>28939904
Tolkien orcs: bestial man like creatures derived from elves who fight a lot. TES orcs: bestial man like creatures derived from elves who fight a lot. Tolkien elves: Tall aescetic man-like creatues with pointed ears and light builds who are elgeant and like magic. TES elves (high elves at least): Tall aescetic man-like creatues with pointed ears and light builds who are elgeant and like magic. Lewis and tolkien were friends, lewis deliberately wrote his books in a differant style to tolkien. Tolkien didnt like them (lol)

>> No.28939962

>>28935466
Stop eating all the god damned pies Haldir!

>> No.28939973

>>28939930
This.

Gods are the Valar to humans.

>> No.28939975

>>28938663
>>28938679
>>28938787
Guys, don't forget that when Aragorn was younger, he fought in the service of Denethor's father, and Denethor was super butthurt because daddy liked the strange man better than him.
It's when he did that Umbar raid and all that jazz. Fucking Aragorn, son.

>> No.28939980

>>28939955
Okay, so you pointed out the similarities and I pointed out the differences. Together we have well described Tolkein and TES elves.

Though I don't think aescetic is a real word.

>> No.28939985

>>28938880
>the hands of king are the hands of a healer.
That prophecy applied to Aragorn, bro. It wasn't a general rule. Aragorn got healing power by way of ye olde Melian, a long ass time ago.

>> No.28940004

>>28939086
>his knee was bent to Mairon and to Mairon's liege.

Oh my

>> No.28940007

>>28939980
It is a real word
adjective
adjective: ascetic

1.
characterized by severe self-discipline and abstention from all forms of indulgence, typically for religious reasons.

Although with further thought its not overly applicable. Think craftworld eldar

>> No.28940010

>>28939235
but could he tear the King of Gondor in half...with his bare hands?!

>> No.28940014

>>28939980
My point is that while they are not identical, TES orcs and elves follow in the racial paradigm tolkien created. Acknowledge my big words or be damned :P

>> No.28940016

>>28939288
>removing Maiar
>not adoring them as long as you can

Wicked creature.

>> No.28940025

>>28939605
>The nature lovin' tall archer elves are weird fanfic immigrants.
>blaming Tolkien for nature elves
>the most famous elves in Middle-Earth are insane fascist kings and warrior-smiths

Son...

>> No.28940037

>>28940014
The Incredible Hulk orcs of most settings do not bear much resemblance to Tolkien's orcs, other than that they're bad and they're enemies to fight.

>> No.28940039

>>28939973
>Blackheart

It's...it's you!

>> No.28940040

>>28940007
Yes, but that is not aescetic.

>>28940014
I would argue the elves at least follow the racial paradigm set by Germanic folklore, and the orcs do not follow the racial paradigm at all. The only thing they have in common are they fight and are called orcs. Even their reason for fighting (honour and evil) are completely diametric.

>> No.28940045

>>28939955
Tolkien orcs are acutely shorter then men. While beastal, they aren't much of a match for human warriors.

>> No.28940050

>>28940007
Protestant bro

>> No.28940056

>>28940025
Ha, nice catch. The people who tend to jam Tolkien stuff into D&D have never Silm'd.

Still, people tend to describe Tolkien elves as "elven rangers."

Hell, I don't even mind jamming Tolkien stuff into D&D, I've often thought about how one would do Angband, Angmar, Isengard, and Mordor orcs in D&D, and so forth and so on.

>> No.28940060

>>28940040
>>28940045

>Yes, but that is not aescetic

It's a greek word, I just used the original spelling

Once again this has became pointless, and we are just arguing how much we feel things are similar or not. Too tired to argue

>> No.28940073

I always wondered what is the average orc's lifespan?
I remember that orcs were made by Melkor from captured and corrupted elves. So are orcs immortal?
Where do they go after death?

>> No.28940075

>>28940045
>Tolkien orcs are shorter than men
>D&D orcs are bigger than men, green, and mostly belong to the class that HULKS OUT

>Tolkien elves are taller than men
>D&D elves are shorter than men, and mostly belong to the class that- EYE OF AGAMATTO

What a strange universe.

>> No.28940082

>>28940056
It's all because of ye olden Legolas-Man. Amusingly, he's not necessarily a typical elf. He's a weird Sindar prince of a Sylvan people with a fetish for hobo-ing around and shooting folks. Fuck, he's such a weirdo that they sent him on some hopeless quest, and no one complained when he just kept traveling afterwards. Never came home, nobody even gave a shit.

Legolas was a strange man, not a typical man, for his society.

>> No.28940087

>>28940060
>It's a greek word, I just used the original spelling
Bollocks. The original spelling is ἄσκησις, which doesn't have the ae in it.

>> No.28940091

>>28940073
Yeah, they're immortal. This is part of why they can build up such huge armies, and there are references to them recalling events hundreds of years prior, the same orc persisting from ancient battle to ancient battle, etc.

If you do the math on, say, D&D elves, who have 2 year long pregnancies and don't usually start having families til the age of 110, and can keep having kids til 700 or so, you wind up with a race that has a crazy high reproduction rate nonetheless.

If you take a creature that's immortal but starts breeding at like, 12, and never slows down, and is immortal, its easy to see how orcs keep exploding all over the place with horrifying, (probably) increasingly inbred armies.

>> No.28940092

>>28940075
>EYE OF AGAMATTO

Oh, Strange-sama...~

>> No.28940097

>>28940082
Nice. At least the fandom always acknowledged non-Legolas elves existing. The derf fandom for aeons thought Gimli was the template of all derfs, and the rage was incalculable at seeing the Peterverse's take on derfs.

>> No.28940106

>>28940087
Ah. In that case i apologize

>> No.28940115

>>28940091
So if they die, they go to the Halls of Mandos? What happens afterwards?

>> No.28940122

>>28935466
Sam actually got to go to the Gray havens, so yes

This is all after he became the mayor, re grew the tree (thanks elf queen) and made a family with the chick he always wanted (saving the town and the world gits you tail)

>> No.28940126

>>28940091
Also, the very first orcs, the orcs of Angband, were effectively dark elves. They were mistaken precisely for elves who had descended into savagery, could not endure high elven laser cleric barrages, and had big honkin' iron spears.

The increasingly fucked up orcs of later years could very well just be them being sent through population bottleneck after population bottleneck, until you have that cancerface dude from Return of the King.

>> No.28940130

>>28940097
>The derf fandom for aeons thought Gimli was the template of all derfs,

>travels constantly with non-Dwarves
>never crafts anything
>never builds anything
>just hobo around and murder niggas

How could anyone ever think Gimli was a typical dwarf?

>> No.28940133

IIRC the TCG had the ring mechanic and some of them could act as ring-bearers

>> No.28940136

>>28940126
>orcs of Angband
>the very first orcs
>not orcs of Utumno

>> No.28940140

>>28940115
Well, evil dudes don't necessarily go to the Halls of Mandos, they sometimes remain in the world as a powerless, evil spirit that wanders the world forever.

But presumably the same thing if Sauron or whoever returns, other than that orcs never really were given a choice and may be treated with more lenience. Its all speculation, though.

Interestingly (imo) the Nephilim, in the Book of Enoch, similarly left evil spirits that meandered the Earth forever.

There is probably enough book evidence to go with orcs being elevated beasts, corrupted humans, or even a few being embodied maiar, if you prefer those origins. I've read convincing essays for all of the above.

>> No.28940141

>>28940073

They're probably immortal, but no one knows for sure. They're known to live very long, but they tend to all die due to violence at some point.

>> No.28940142

>>28940130
>How could anyone ever think Gimli was a typical dwarf?

How often did we see any other Dwarves to compare him too?

>> No.28940147

>>28940130
Crafting, like, was barely a PC thing for awhile. Well, it never even became that much of a thing.

>>28940136
My bad.

>> No.28940150

>>28940126

Weren't the Uruk-Hai created by crossbreeding Orcs with Human stock?

>> No.28940157

>>28940150
Neckbeard the ent speculates that that may be the case, and that it would be a "black evil" and gets creeped out by the thought, but nobody really knows.

But yeah, I'm pretty sure uruk-hai are half orcs. We do know that Isengard had some less nasty half orcs that could pose as human, so presumably the uruk-hai were the half orcs that couldn't, but were instead the hulk orcs of other settings.

>> No.28940260

>>28940157
Actually, Sauron was the one that created the Uruk-Hai. Saruman filched the idea.

>> No.28940328

>>28940157
Never said otherwise, just that there's a lot of speculation as to what they are.

Incidentally, 4e not explicitly stating half orcs are born of rape (but rather, "and if you ask a half orc where he comes from, he might punch you") doesn't seem so bad, considering Tolkien seemed to dance around the topic as well. I think probably "I'm not saying its rape, but..." is more intimidating than "PAGE 14 SAYS RAAAAAPE"

>> No.28940375

>>28940328
>considering Tolkien seemed to dance around the topic as well.

Nobody has sex in Tolkien. They just sing songs and kill each other

>> No.28940386

>>28940375
Melkor ripped a demigoddess elf's clothes off and forced her to dance naked for him while it mentions he had perilously depraved thoughts involving her.

Said demigoddess was also his favorite character for his wife to roleplay as.

Melkor's dick was also probably as big as her leg.

Its probably a good thing her cheap ass Slumber Hex worked.

>> No.28940426

>>28940386
Hey, she was a Maia at the height of her power. I'm sure she could accommodate his Hammer of the Underworld somehow.

>> No.28940445

What is the origin of Ungoliant?
It's stated that she came from Outer Darkness.
She can't be a simple Maiar, as she defeated and nearly killed Morgoth.
She can't be a Valar, as their names and numbers are well known.
So what is she?

>> No.28940448

>>28940426
I THINK Melian is her mom, the maiar, and Luthien is her daughter, the Sleep cheesing Melkor bait elf/maiar hybrid.

>> No.28940456

>>28940448
That's fair; I guess she was a half-Maia. Her power just comes across as very Maximum in the stories. Destroying Sauron's tower and all. Bretty gud.

Plus, shapeshifting? I'm sure she could take the D of evil.

>> No.28940503

>>28940445
She's something that can frighten a Vala, and takes an army of Maiar to stop.

She's like a small piece of uncreation in a material form, desiring to devour the world.

>> No.28940528

>>28940445
Using a non-canon-but-totally-appropriate phrase:

She's a Great Old One.

Tolkien wrote a few cryptic passages about "nameless things" that dwell in the deep places of the world, and referred to Ungoliant as one of a set. She's essentially just a malevolent spirit with an alien outlook that lends itself to evil easily.

>> No.28940557

>>28940375
Turin fucked his sister

>> No.28940565

>>28940528
wait the thing that managed to scare the piss out of the mightiest of Valar has siblings?

how fucking doomed is that world

>> No.28940572

>>28940260
Saruman SYSTEMIZED the method of making uruk-hai. This is why every orc in Isengard was one.

Sauron had his own uruks, but they weren't the mainstay of the army, since orcs themselves were cheaper than dirt, and Mordor had a lot of dirt.

>> No.28940583

>>28940557
Wait a minute, did he fuck her, or did they live together, and later she got pregnant. People have kids all the time in Tolkien, but when do they fuck? Never.

>> No.28940585

>>28940503
>Then the pursuit was begun. and the earth shook beneath the host of Orome, and >the fire that was stricken from the hooves of Nahar was the first light that returned >to Valinor. But so soon as any came up with the Cloud of Ungoliant the riders of >the Valar were blinded and dismayed, and they were scattered, and went they >knew not whither; and the sound of the Valorama faltered and failed. And Tulkas >was as one caught in a black net at night, and he stood powerless and beat the >air in vain.

>Tulkas
>stood powerless

**TWO** Valas, Orome and Tulkas, couldn't do anything to her.
Yeah, she is probably some kind of elder abomination. Probably not even Iluvatar's creation.

>> No.28940590

>>28940565
Well, they're currently gnawing at its roots.

And Melkor wasn't truly scared of her until she ate the two trees. Probably because he hadn't realised what he was dealing with until then.

>> No.28940609

>>28940583
implied incest is still incest

it counts even if you don't get an act by act description of him boning his sister

>> No.28940614

>>28939973
>>28939930
Funny thing: Tolkien wrote about the relationship between Men and the Valar once. The savages that inhabited Middle-Earth called them gods. The Dunadain only venerated Eru, and later after Numenor's fall, got really, REALLY keen on ignoring the gods and Eru altogether, since all instances of them getting involved usually end up in millions of humans dying.

>> No.28940650

>>28940585
Some sources have her as originally a Maia.

Others have her coming from the void from which the world was made, but is not part of.

So yeah, she's probably a giant-spider-shaped eldritch abomination from outer space.

>> No.28940662

>>28940585
>Probably not even Iluvatar's creation.
Someone doesn't know how Eru works

>> No.28940711

>>28940609
>act by act heroic mythical sister boning

Hey, I'd read it

>> No.28940734

>>28940650
One more fact supporting eldritch abomination theory:
She wasn't creature of darkness. She was a creture of something called "Unlight". Not Light, not Darkness, but Unlight, something utterly alien and incomprehensible.
And if we also consider that "nameless things" were older than Sauron, which was one of the Ainur, then we've got some interesting implications.
Is Eru Iluvatar truly the One God? Could something exist outside his Creation?
Yes, he stated that he is the One. Not that anyone of his creation doubt his words, with them being part of his creation and with Eru being orders of magnitude more powerful than anyone else.
But Ungoliant and "nameless things" suggest otherwise.

>> No.28940747

>>28940662
He merely states that he is the One.

>> No.28940900

>>28940734
My guess is that Ungoliant and her kin aren't actual entities at all. She does, after all, merely assume the form of a spider.

What they actually are would be pieces of what was before creation. Or what was outside creation when it was created, in opposition to it.

Their "gnawing at the roots of the world" is more like pressure pushing inwards on the bubble which is Eä.

Ungoliant would thus be a bubble of not, inside the bubble of is.

>> No.28941004

>>28940585
Well, it's possible that the whole eating of the Trees thing gave her some UNGODLY powerup.

>>
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