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[ERROR] No.28930824 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

I understand that the gift of elves is immortality and the gift of men is dying, but why do dwarves also die of old age? Also, what's the deal with hobbits, why are they their own race?

>> No.28930861

The gift of dwarves is not-having-been-wiped-out-properly-for-the-crime-of-having-been-made-first, and the gift of hobbits is second breakfast.

>> No.28930863


It's like you think they're midgets or something.

>> No.28930878

dwarves shouldn't exist. one of the valar made them unauthorised, eru didn't plan for them. what happens to them when they die is a mystery.

hobbits are considered related to humans and hence probably share the same fate.

>> No.28930890

Hobbits are descended from men.

Dwarves were created by Mahal (Aulë the Smith), not Eru Ilúvatar like Men and Elves. For further information, read The Silmarillion.

>> No.28930918

The hobbits have the gift of being so boring nobody cares.

It's actually p.powerful of an ability.

>> No.28930968

Badass dwarfs, hijacked in the plans of the greatest god of all.
Like, "This is my world, I'll make it perfect"
And Aule "Shit boss, let me SHOW you how to make it perfect"
>He was only pretending
>Implying Aule could destroy his own creation
Aule is boss. Also Mandos and Orome. Fucking Mandos and Orome.

>> No.28930996

They can even pass MORE unnoticed if they want.

>> No.28931181

I thought hobbits were distant relatives of the goblin, hence the pointy ears and living underground.

>> No.28931223

Nope, they are men, just a particular variety. Numenoriens got to be 7 feet tall, live for centuries, and strong as oxen. Hobbits got being short and stuff

>> No.28931273

And live longer than normal men, and be stealthy as fuck.

>> No.28931339

Do they have green thumbs any more than normal Men?
Because at the rate they eat, even if they have smaller portions due to being small, I can see them having incredibly tough times feeding themselves in what I assume to be late-middle-ages-level(?) agriculture.

>> No.28931400

Nah, hobbits are semi-advanced. How else do you explain their waist coats and vests? Obviously they have the advanced four field system of the later centuries

>> No.28931469

I interpreted that amount of eating as a focus on food security rather than a normal diet per se, so they might have had trouble feeding themselves in the past. something even normal men should've had problems with, given the setting.

>> No.28931536

Eru didn't plan for ANY of them.
Melkor was kind of a dick, and him fucking up Eru's music caused Humans and Elves in the first place

>> No.28931618

Melkor was never a dick, he just wanted some glory for himself.

>> No.28932659


Hobbits are like mid-1800s level advanced. They actually probably have the quality of life closest to a modern human. It's just that all their technological advances are made in service of making their lives more comfortable, so they never invent guns or trains or anything.

>> No.28932785

I believe the shire is also in a sweet spot, climate wise. Good soil, mild winters, etc.

>> No.28932843

>and the gift of hobbits is second breakfast.
Thank you sir, that made me laugh

>> No.28932853

after all they did waked into Mordor.

>> No.28932935

Ok guys, I give in. I want to get into Tolkien lore because from the little scraps I've seen posted it sounds like it'd be a good read. Where do I start though and how do I proceed after the first few books? I mean right now I'm reading Horus Heresy since I wanted to get into W40k lore but I might take a break soon. I need less future and more fantasy.

>> No.28932990

I think one of the Hobit's gifts were a type of innocence. It's what allowed Frodo to last so long with the ring as opposed to instantly being corrupted by it like the Men who had it before him. Gollum was just a way for the ring to lie low for a while until it could try to make a break for Sauran. I will grant that frodo had some personal strength to resist it as long as he did.

>> No.28933030

The gift of the hobbits was the author's worship of rural England and the need to make a Mary Sue self-insert thereof.

As much as I love the worldbuilding of Tolkein and respect him as an author, let's be honest. Hobbits were perfect and good at everything because Tolkein loved rural England and thought it was going to get wiped out by the modern world.

>> No.28933065

ha ha

>> No.28933119

You do know you don't have to exaggerate and make it look like you never read the work to make your point, right?

>> No.28933127

The Hobbit is allways a good read

and for LotR, well I haven't read it yet, but my friend tells me that it has a somewhat slow pacing and it drags on and on

>> No.28933139

Actually Hobbits were the way they were because the books were originally bedtime stories, and the hobbits were there to show not being a big strong hulking brute was ok if you were brave and true and junk.

>> No.28933147


>> No.28933166

nice deconstruction

someone mentioned the Silmarillion
oh here it is: >>28930890
the bad news is that it's incomplete, Tolkien died before finishing it and his son published it as is AFAIK. it's the Middle Earth's Genesis

>> No.28933169

To be fair it was as much vid related as that, too.

>> No.28933193

the second book is great. dat divided narrative among the Two Towers, the white Isengard one and the black Mordor one

>> No.28933210

I did read the books. There may have been some hyperbole, but it's true.

I mean, just see the earlier post about them having 1800s or so tech when the rest of Middle Earth was stuck in the ~1200s or so.

Or that all of the hobbits that had contact with the One Ring kept at least some small scrap of memory of their true selves, when the Kings of Men couldn't do that with lesser rings. And many of the most powerful good people in the setting refused to even touch it out of temptation.

Or how a hobbit that had never so much as left the Shire before outwitted a dragon his first try.

And so on and so forth.

>> No.28933222

But its not. Hobbits are the archetypical "little guy", who finds theur courage/confidence. Its as simple as that

>> No.28933309

I'm not sure the technology holds much water, considering we see very little how the other races live. But, the Elves grow houses out of trees, while the Dwarves can tunnel amazing depths. Hobbits having technology on par with goblins isn't exactly impossible.

The Rings effected hobbits so much less because hobbits ARE so much less than the mighty Kings of old. 7ft tall, century living men who once tried to invade Heaven can fall pretty far. Farmers and landholders, not so much.

Bilbo had been travelling through more adventures than even those Dwarves had seen in that year. Smaug was just one portion of his journey. "Mary-sue self inserts" doesn't mean "characters that do things".

>> No.28933408

and they're the audience surrogate (which is supposed to be little as well)

... as a matter of fact, the greatest kids books are the ones where the setting looks totally silly but it's put on contrast with a bigger, darker and epic quest, to make the children leave their comfort zone and then bring them back at the end
what was the name of that... ah, yes, the Hero's Journey

>> No.28933440

I always felt that the focus and exultation of the hobbits wasn't so much a masturabory mary sue of the false ideal of the 'quiet rural life' so much as it was its own sort of condemnation of reckless advancement and the 'great works' of man.

He was a guy who fought in World War 1 and saw 2 happen, and had the odd stance of finding the servant to the noble far more worthy than the noble themselves.

All of his work seems to have the message of "you can wage your wars and wrought glories and amazing things but in the end it's fucking pointless and you could have spent that time with a good cup of coffee and a book because nobody is going to remember or care how many nations you conquered at the end of the day"

The hobbits got away with a lot, but it seemed more of an ideal of how simple living was a stronger ideal than greed, ambition, power, and mass industry.

>> No.28933463

>and had the odd stance of finding the servant to the noble far more worthy than the noble themselves
I don't see how that is odd in the slightest, but I value a person's actions over the heritage they were lucky enough to be born into.

>> No.28933472

The reason why the One Ring never affected Hobbits as deeply as it did the other races is because the Hobbits themselves are a simple, peaceful race. They have no hidden agendas, no visions of grandeur. What they all truly long for and love is peace, quiet, and good tilled earth. That's not something the Ring can warp or twist, unlike the desires of the Kings of Men.

Sure, the Hobbits and the Shire were his love story to the good old pre-war English countryside, but they're also a quiet nod to the power of a simple, peaceful existence compared to one of ambition and avarice.

>> No.28933500

Because this was the early turn of the century where servants were still treated like filth, slaves were still a thing in a lot of places, and barely anyone who wasn't white and male and rich had any rights. To take the stance that the servant was the better and more worthy person is sort of unusual.

>> No.28933540

Not that guy, but there certainly was a theme of the dangers of industrialization throughout LOTR, most plainly seen by how Sauroman and the Orcs were so associated with industry. The desolation of Isengard and the sack of the Shire both dedicated a good while to describing the despoilment of the countryside by industry, the latter especially.

>> No.28933563

>Sure, the Hobbits and the Shire were his love story to the good old pre-war English countryside, but they're also a quiet nod to the power of a simple, peaceful existence compared to one of ambition and avarice.
is it so difficult to believe he really wasn't writing about his own ideals? powerless people with good intentions is a really popular theme in everything he got his inspiration from.

>> No.28933602

Which he was honestly half-right about anyways, even if he came from the stance of industry somehow destroying the fake idea of the righteous peaceful country life.

Responsible industry is still something that should have been looked at critically, since now we have immense social strife, countless deaths, and global environmental catastrophe.

At the time though I'm sure it was more being looked at from the angle of a filthy trench-footed soldier in no man's land choking on mustard gas while he dreams of how good it was to choke down a piece of dry toast on a spring morning.

>> No.28933610

The point being made is that they WEREN'T powerless. They, and they alone, were immune at best, or at least resistant, to the corrupting power of the rings. That, combined with natural stealth and their ability to get underfoot in an entirely silly number of fights without being killed immediately, are about the best powers to have around.

>> No.28933639

that is the same point as it's been in every other story

>> No.28933643

Remember that Gollum still died in the throes of the ring, in the end, and Frodo gave in, and was saved purely by chance. The only way he kept sane and together was to depart the world for Heaven in the end, essentially. The ring and its power scarred them, forever taking them away from the ideal of their rural lives, even if it didn't necessarily end in apocalypse and mad godkings.

>> No.28933687

>The point being made is that they WEREN'T powerless. They, and they alone, were immune at best, or at least resistant, to the corrupting power of the rings.

Yeah, all those rings they didn't get to have because they never stopped to look outside their boarders.

>That, combined with natural stealth and their ability to get underfoot in an entirely silly number of fights without being killed immediately, are about the best powers to have around.

Yeah, like that time when the 300 hobbit commandos crossed the River Isen under cover of darkness, and in mere days they assassinated King Theoden and installed a puppet government in Rohan. Since the powerful and sneaky hobbits totally had the best powers.

>> No.28933735

>he 300 hobbit commandos

I think part of the point here is that three hobbits that were not commandos by any means did what trained commandos (or rangers, I suppose) from any other race in Middle Earth could not.

i.e. sneak into Smaug's hoard and into Mordor.

>> No.28933820

Well, they were really small, really unknown to the world, and naturally stealthy. Bilbo's entire adventure was a stumble and swerve of luck, borderline cowardice, and a cordial lack of the sort of immense green that'd land him in a dragon's maw. His typical thought was "can I get this over with so I can go home and eat cake" and Sam's last fucking thoughts before death was "gee do you remember strawberries"

Their sheer dislike and indifference to the glories of adventure pretty much gave them a cute sort of narrative shield against the kind of stuff that'd see most adventurer's dead or cursing the bitter end. It was treated more like a job or a dutiful nuisance than an adventure.

>> No.28933825

>could not
were too fucking sensible not to try

>> No.28933843


When Elves die, their spirits go to the Halls of Mandos and they're eventually resurrected. Rarely does a resurrected elf return to Middle Earth, but it has happened. They're "immortal within the universe", though. That's an important distinction: once the universe ends, they don't know what if any existence they might have.

It's not known, but strongly implied, that orcs are a hideously defiled and corrupted sub-race of Elves, and are subject to the same fate. However, Tolkien went back and forth on this subject.

Dwarves were not part of the original plan, but their fate is clearly revealed: when they die, their spirits dwell in the Halls of Mandos, in a special area set aside for them. They can't be re-embodied, but they do continue to enjoy "life" for as long as middle earth lasts. As with elves, their fate is unknown when the world ends.

When men (including hobbits, a sub-race of men) die, their spirits go to the Halls of Mandos also, but then are escorted outside the universe, never to be seen again. However, two important things are known. First, they DO have a life outside the universe dwelling in the pre-continuum where Eru and the ainur originally lived. Also, it's known that when Eru creates his next world, humans will also have an important part to play in it. That is, human spirits are truly immortal-- even if the universe ends, human souls remain. In that sense, humans are more like ainur like Sauron, Gandalf, and the Valar than like elves.

Half-elves get to choose which group they're numbered with. One incredible human hero was given the right to be treated as an elf.

Various other sentient life like Wargs, Giant Eagles, and Ents are actually spirits inhabiting living animal-like creatures. As such, they're like spirits, brief visitors from outside the circles of the world who go back there when they die.

>> No.28933863

No, that is the point, but not the one you were trying to make. They're small, and tiny, and literally unimportant to the enemy. Sauron didn't care that two hobbit were getting close to Mordor. Hell, he didn't even think there WAS a hobbit that needed looking at til Pippin looked into the Palantir. The hobbits got into Mordor and past Sauron not because they were good at it, but because they had courage and were underestimated by their enemy.

>> No.28933908

>Yeah, all those rings they didn't get to have because they never stopped to look outside their boarders.
Right, which is why some chucklefuck who stumbled across the One Ring in his travels managed to remain uncorrupted for years, while just being NEAR the guy holding it for a few weeks drove an honorable soldier like Boromir to treason.

>...Since the powerful and sneaky hobbits totally had the best powers.
In a world like Middle Earth, where the gods have packed up and left, the elves (who are better then you can possibly be in every single way) are bailing too, the actual god of evil is gone entirely and all that's left is one of his lower lieutenant, the dwarves have been dieing out for centuries, the humans are in decline, people's idea of "monsters" has dropped such that a single balrog (one of morgoth's lower-middling minions) is considered beyond the greatest heroes, and the concepts of magic and artifice have fallen so low that a single coat of mithril mail is considered extraordinary (when back in the old days, that shit was standard issue), then YES, living quietly and not going into decline like everybody else is about the best you can hope to do.

The entire message of almost all of Tolken's works was that warfare and politics are the least of endeavors, and that artifice, craftsmanship, and quiet living are the best.

>> No.28933973

>Also, it's known that when Eru creates his next world, humans will also have an important part to play in it.

Well, yes. Since it's all but explicitly stated that the world we're living in now is the next world. I mean there's even talk of people alive today that are descended from Merry and Pippin at the end of LotR, as I vaguely recall.

>> No.28933983


So your saying the elves become the Reapers?

>> No.28934022

I think the elves cease to exist once the universe ends, is the implication.

So in exchange for being king shit of fuckoff mountain in this reality, and an afterlife full of blowjobs and wine goblets, they have to concede to turning into stardust once the ride is over.

Whereas humans get to live in fear and filth and horror, but are allowed to keep existence beyond the end.

>> No.28934108


Tolkien is all about degeneration.

>> No.28934139

Pretty sure Middle Earth is directly supposed to be about the ancient prehistory of this world, and even Alan Moore says that's his interpretation.

>> No.28935721

>implying Dwarves die
>implying they don't just go to Valhalla and/or local alternative where ale and whores are plentiful

>> No.28935770

it's a little known fact that Balin wasn't actually dead. There was a word missing, he was supposed to be dead drunk.

>> No.28935786

I was under the impression that for the longest time the One Ring was "sleeping"?

>> No.28935817

>in reality there's only like a couple thousand dwarves in all of existence and literature
>they just keep getting reincarnated and recycled into another genre or setting
>we've been seeing the same dwarves over and over for thousands of years and that's why they always seem the same

>> No.28935824


It's bad enough Viking-philes have to shit up regular threads.

Don't shit up the one setting where dwarves actually have some dignity and aren't just one giant neckbeard fantasy.

Vikings are not admirable. /tg/'s vision of whores, booze, and excess driven dwarves are also not admirable. Please stop worshiping them every time they are so much as mentioned in passing.

>> No.28935891

oh sure let's turn to the oh so dignified elves having ass parties in the mirkwoods or singing tra fa la la come down to the fucking valley wooooooooooooooo

>> No.28935892

Dude, they're fantasy stories. Especially The Hobbit, which is Bilbo's version of the events in story form. Like someone pointed out before, the goal is to have a hero that doesn't just win because he was bigger and stronger.

It's some beautiful shit, man.

>> No.28935903

>excess driven dwarves
Doesn't that actually come from Tolkein's setting?

I mean, they were greedy and got their shit kicked out of the lonely mountain.

and they were greedy and got their shit handed to them in Moria.

>> No.28935910

Dwarves were not an intended race, so they didn't get a planned gift.

>> No.28935925

>The entire message of almost all of Tolken's works was that warfare and politics are the least of endeavors
He did loose a number of friends in the trenches...

When this world ends, the elves will join the divine choir with the valar and maiar. Whether they then go on to sing a new world into existence or just hang around and blow Eru Illuvatar for the rest of eternity, that's up to Eru Illuvatar.

The fate of all those human (etc) souls, well, that's a big bloody mystery.

It is to some degree an attempt to give England a norse style mythology, complete with Fafner-ripoff. Alan Moore may be entertaining, but he probably shouldn't be relied upon when it comes to these things. His interpretation of reality is a pretty unique thing.

>> No.28935938

The whole "elves are gay pansies" stereotype is just as bad. Both stereotypes scream of people who never read the source material in pretty much any setting ever.

Greed was their vice, yes. But they were portrayed with dignity, like just about every one of the "good" folks in the books. They were not all about whores and booze.

Really, I think that's what bugs me most about the hobby these days. People take races and settings that have a great amount of depth and dignity and reduce it to "lolwhoresandbooze" or "lolfaggots".

>> No.28935944

You missed the whole point of the Ainulindale. Nothing Melkor could do wouldn't be part of Eru's plan. He'd already accounted for everything.

>> No.28935952

dwarves get like smithing n shit, hobbits are just hobbits

>> No.28935963

oh come off it already and pound a shot or two and have some fun you detestable black hole of sourness

>> No.28935984


>It is to some degree an attempt to give England a norse style mythology, complete with Fafner-ripoff. Alan Moore may be entertaining, but he probably shouldn't be relied upon when it comes to these things. His interpretation of reality is a pretty unique thing.

Yup, but in this case, you agree with him, so...

>> No.28936009

Yeah, he just wanted to make things the way his father did. He was a precocious child looking to impress his father.

Eru actually congratulates him for his efforts after the music is over.

>> No.28936015

Yup. Goes to show, the two weakest elements of Middle Earth are "I sure do love reminiscing about walking" and "I sure do like forcing my religion into my setting, no matter how stupid it makes things."

>> No.28936028

I do have fun. But my fun is in looking behind the surface into how things and people and cultures work. Which is something Tolkein put a lot of thought into.

It's simply frustrating when my idea of fun makes me a "detestable black hole of sourness" and everything I like in a setting gets reduced to "Who cares? It's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit."

I will not apologize for liking more than surface blunt stereotypes in my entertainment. It wouldn't kill you to have some standards.

>> No.28936038

It's a world created by a devout Christian with a very obvious God stand-in (Illuvatar), angels (valar, maiar) and even Satan (Melkor).

You're not going to get any afterlife beyond a cloud and a harp.

If it's something Melkor showed us, it's that Illuvatar deals very well with unforeseen events.

>> No.28936056

God damn that would be backhanded as FUCK

"Ok, the final human, a pitiful mortal, defeated you once and for all. Apocalypse has come and gone, the world is over. Nice WORK kid! Damn! That was fun shit you did out there, rockin'."

and melkor can just stand there wide-eyed fiddling with a now useless simaril just all "what"

>> No.28936091

>It's a world created by a devout Christian with a very obvious God stand-in (Illuvatar), angels (valar, maiar) and even Satan (Melkor).
In fairness, it's a pretty sympathetic portrayal of Satan. Melkor is more well-intentioned but misguided than pure evil and the antithesis of everything God stands for.

>> No.28936142

>You're not going to get any afterlife beyond a cloud and a harp.
The joke is they don't fucking die and thus have no need of an afterlife.

The Dwarves aren't there because they're dead, they're they're because they're Odin's old drinking buddies and he has the best booze and wenches.

>> No.28936149

>Before the creation of Arda (The World), Melkor was the most powerful of the Ainur. Because of his unique station, he sought to create wills in the manner of his own Creator, so he alone would venture sometimes into the Void in search of the Flame Imperishable, the Secret Fire, which would grant him this ability. But he never found it, as it is with Eru only. He had sought to fill the Void with sentient beings and was dissatisfied with Eru's abandonment of it. Instead, in what he hoped would be an expression of his own originality and creativity, he contended with Eru in the Music of the Ainur, introducing what he perceived to be themes of his own.

>During the Great Music of the Ainur, Melkor attempted to alter the Music and introduced what he believed to be elements purely of his own design. As part of these efforts, he drew many weaker-willed Ainur to him, creating a counter to Eru’s main theme. Ironically, these attempts did not truly subvert the Music, but only elaborated Eru’s original intentions: the Music of Eru took on depth and beauty precisely because of the strife and sadness Melkor’s disharmonies (and their rectification) introduced.

Poor bastard.

>> No.28936169

Why didn't Sauron use an army of skeletons instead of orcs

>> No.28936191

Melkor didn't die at the hands of a mortal.

He went out like a boss. Took all the Valar working together, and they nearly perished -- not even at his hands, but of his mortal creations, the dragons, a true-breeding race that challenged the gods.

Even though Sauron died on accident, at the hands of Gollum, he gave the world a pretty good run. Dude was the equivalent of Gandalf, but nearly succeeded in conquering the world.

>> No.28936211

Depending on your interpretation, Satan is also on the well-intentioned and misguided side.

>> No.28936216

Skeletons don't replicate. They usually have no intelligence or memory, can't be put to constructive work, would have no skill if they did, and would break pretty fast.

>> No.28936230

>He sought to create wills in the manner of his own Creator
>He had sought to fill the Void with sentient beings and was dissatisfied with Eru's abandonment of it
>In what he hoped would be an expression of his own originality and creativity
Jesus Christ, Eru, get the kid a fucking dog or something.

>> No.28936239

Read the Hobbit. Read the Lord of the Rings. Read the Hobbit again. Try to read the Silmarillion. Buy parts of the Histories. Give up.

The trick is to read the Silmarillion, and the best way to do that is to read until you feel your eyes glaze over, check the table of contents, and skip ahead to the tale of Beren & Luthien, which is so badass it'll inspire you to read the whole book. It's worth it, it's just that the opening is slow and the whole thing is written in a particular style. It really is worth it.

Maybe read the Children of Hurin next.

Leave the History of Middle Earth books for much later, if you want to go full pseudoacademic in your Tolkien.

>> No.28936247

It takes place a bit earlier than that. Eru led the valar and maiar in song to sing the world into existence. Melkor intentionally tried to sing false to ruin the whole thing, which upset his siblings, but Eru showed them how the contrast Melkor had provided simply ended up adding to the beauty of the world. You need a bit of rain to get a rainbow and all that.

Melkor got about as happy about that as a rebellious twelve year old who just discovered that he had been tricked into doing his homework.

As for the end of the world, Melkor will have no part in that. He was thrown into the void in a thoroughly permanent way after the whole Silmaril thing. I guess be there with his siblings after the world has ended, probably finally having learned his lesson and all that, but he will never again have anything whatsoever to do with the world.

>> No.28936269

I think he's referring to Dagor Dagorath.

>> No.28936283

No I meant the end of the world and the Void.

Doesn't the last mortal take a sword, enter the Void in the final battle, and slay the hell out of Melkor? Like right before Eru pulls the curtain close on existence as the stars all wink out?

>> No.28936287

Isn't there an image macro/meme about some guy gorging himself on shit and berating everyone else for not devouring the turds with as much gusto as he is?

The shit eating guy here would be you, not >>28935938

>> No.28936301


Once you read into the backstory Melkor and Sauron are kinda tragic

Sauron is practically moe in how often he gets his shit kicked. He's like that kid who gets bullied so the only thing he can think to do is be SO EDGY to look tough

>> No.28936302

I'm not sure that's really true. Tolkien was not unfamiliar with Wodehouse.

>frodo left middle earth and journeyed west to finally, finally escape his aunts and that dreadful madeline bassett's attempts to marry him.

>> No.28936313

The funny thing is he basically did this with Aule, which is the whole dwarf thing that's being discussed.

>Desperate for pupils onto whom he could pass his knowledge and unwilling to wait for the emergence of the Children of Ilúvatar, Aulë created his own race of beings, the Dwarves. However, he did not have a clear idea of what the Children of Ilúvatar would be like, and because of the presence of the chaos caused by Melkor, Aulë made the Dwarves strong and unyielding, and not willing to endure the domination of others, as well as embodying some of his values and desires for Middle-earth. However Aulë did not have the power to give independent life to his creations. They could act only when his thought was on them.

>When Aulë had completed his work he began to instruct the Dwarves in the language he had made for them, Khuzdul. Then Ilúvatar spoke to him, asking why he would seek to exceed his power and authority by attempting to make new life. Aulë repented, answering that the drive to create was kindled in him by Ilúvatar, and that he only wished for other beings to love and teach, with whom to share in the beauty of the world. He admitted that his impatience had driven him to folly and submitted his creations to Ilúvatar. Assuming that they should be destroyed, he made to smite the seven Fathers of the Dwarves with a great hammer, weeping as he did so. But as the Dwarves shrank from the blow, Ilúvatar stayed Aulë's hand and showed that he had already accepted his offer by gifting the Dwarves with spirits of their own, else they could not have been afraid.

>> No.28936357

>Ilúvatar accepted them as his adopted children; however, as it was ordained that the Elves were to be the firstborn race, he set the Dwarves to sleep until after the Awakening of the Elves. He told Aulë that while both were his children, their creation was outside the scope of the Music of the Ainur, and often strife would arise between the Dwarven race and the Elven race as the events of the world unfolded.

>The Dwarves believe that after they die their spirits remove to halls Aulë has set aside for them, and their role will be to rebuild Arda after the Final Battle that is yet to come.

>> No.28936380

I'm going to cry like a bitch the next time I read LotR.

>> No.28936390

Tolkien struggled pretty heavily with the concept of Inherent Evil.

>> No.28936392

Basically Aule was willing to admit that he'd overstepped his bounds and humble himself, and in return Eru gave life to his creations.

Melkor wanted to create things himself.

>> No.28936406

Oh I see. Didn't have a fucking clue as far as interpreting the Ragnarokalypse stuff.

>> No.28936411

That sounds like a very strange thing to do. Last I heard the valar to begin with simply cannot die. It just won't happen. That's why Melkor wasn't slain, but thrown into the void, it's the only way to get rid of him permanently.

Second, they did get rid of him permanently, didn't they? He has ceased to be an issue entirely, and that permanently.

So why go on a suicidal one way trip to kill a deathless entity who ceased to be anything but a memory ages ago?

>> No.28936425

Yeah, it's pretty beautiful country

I think the only place more fertile in the canon is Mordor itself, because it's near to that volcano.

>> No.28936433

I think you answered your own question there.

>> No.28936439

If we're being incredibly technical, there were no Valar and Maiar at that point. The Valar became the Valar when they bound themselves to the world, and were made nigh-omnipotent within the world in exchange.

Before that there were just Ainur.

>> No.28936467

One of the versions has Turin Turambar doing that, yes, but I don't think it's considered canonical.

Morgoth is unique among Valar in that he's bound to one physical form. He diminished his personal power by extending it into the world. All the evil and monsters in the world are manifestations of his original power.

>> No.28936484

Still though, that's like Melkor making a macaroni picture for his dad in attempt to make his dad proud and show off his own skills.

Then he finds out the macaroni picture was JUST AS PLANNED and that it would simply go on the wall of macaroni in their house.

>> No.28936504

Yeah, Lobelia Sackville-Baggins didn't want it anymore after Saruman's occupation of the Shire and her son Lotho being murdered and possibly eaten there. No one contested Sam inheriting it from Frodo.

>> No.28936505

>So why go on a suicidal one way trip to kill a deathless entity who ceased to be anything but a memory ages ago?
Because Turin Turambar fucking hates himself, and committing suicide by killing Satan's a pretty worthwhile way of going out after being an unbelievable fuckup your entire life and repeatedly accidentally killing and ruining everything you've ever loved.

It's a redemption thing.

>> No.28936544


Yeah, but like, what if some tolkien doctor came up to you, and started harping on how shallow your view of Tolkien races was.

I bet you would think him a ponce.

>> No.28936546

Well, it's more like Melkor insisting he'd also made the macaroni itself after finding it in the house (where it was obviously bought or made by his dad). His dad was proud of him, and it was a nice picture, but Eru still provided him with the macaroni and the paper and the glue.

Basically Melkor doesn't understand the concept of gratitude or help. He wants to be responsible for everything himself.

>> No.28936562

>and her son Lotho being murdered and possibly eaten there.
Jesus Christ, I don't remember this bit.

>> No.28936620

Yeah, Lotho was Saruman's inside man, the guy he bought all his pipeweed and so on from before the war.

Saruman had Wormtongue kill him in his sleep, and Greemer was so poorly fed at that point that he might have eaten him.

Though Saruman's taunting about it finally drove him to slit the tainted wizard's throat and get his back feathered as he ran away.

>> No.28936647

I like the idea that the more corrupt and earthly you become, the more susceptible to cheap and ugly death you are.

>> No.28936692

I guess the moral is that having an independent streak is bad when the one you're trying to be independent from is God.

>> No.28936696

As his body fell, a shade rose from it and looked to the west. At that point a cold wind blew in, and Saruman's spirit was dispersed.

>> No.28936700

It's also in a sweet spot geographically. Eriador to the north and east, Lindon to the west. Protected by powerful allies on three sides.

Dunland to the south, but I'm sure that will all turn out fine.

>> No.28936871

After his "death" at the hand of Isildur, Sauron wandered around as a disembodied spirit, trying to make use of what little power he had remaining. Maiar can normally create a new body for themselves when one breaks, but Sauron had put so much of his power into the Ring that he didn't have enough left to make a body. He ended up farting around Middle Earth for a couple thousand years, and eventually moved in to a fortress he used to have in Mirkwood. There, he had some residual power and was able to use it to infect the surrounding wilderness, empowering dark creatures like giant spiders and fucking with the Elves that lived in the forest, as well as re-establishing contact with the Nazgul.

At that point, Gandalf discovered what was going on and the White Council stormed the place. Sauron hauled ass out of there and moved back in to his tower in Mordor. That's when he started actively trying to get the Ring back; sending the Nazgul to investigate who ended up kidnapping Golum, who told him the ring was taken by someone named Baggins, who lived in the Shire. Que Fellowship.

>> No.28936955

I thought the Hobbits were a naturally occurring race on Middle Earth that no one ever planned for, including the Gods.

Like, Middle Earth sprang them up naturally as part of it's eco system or something.

Have never read any of the books outside of the Hobbit novel, just seen movies and heard friends talk about it

>> No.28936987

Where were the Nazgul all that time?

>> No.28937067

The Witch King set up a kingdom in the far north called Angmar. (Hence the name "Witch King of Angmar") He attacked Arnor, Gondor's sister-kingdom, and won. The Arnorian government was broken and its people scattered. The Dunedain that Aragorn is the chief of are the descendants of Arnor's royal line.

As for the rest of the Nazgul, they didn't do anything noteworthy. Some of them probably moved to Angmar with the Witch King.

>> No.28937093

What's especially funny is that many of the things about rural England that Tolkien loves were themselves products of British imperialism, colonialism, and the Columbian Exchange. If the English really lived as hobbits do, just keeping to themselves and hoping nobody notices them, they'd never have tea, which only grows in tropical climates. They'd also never have pipeweed, and they'd sure as fuck not have taters.

>> No.28937119

Actually, they did do one other noteworthy thing: they captured Minas Ithil, the fortress Gondor set up on the Mordor border, set up shop there, and renamed it Minas Morgul. After Angmar was eventually broken up, the Witch King moved in and made his home there.

>> No.28937150

They were meant to be child like

In the book Bilbo was always complaining and wanted thing, always hungry and always wanted his handkerchief. However he grew out of it, and he became a man, he told the people he cared about when they did wrong, and he did what was right and not what was asked

Its also about adventure and leaving the indoors even if you never need to

>TFW JRR Tolkien is rolling in his grave because he did the opposite of what he intended and that was inspire people of any age or any size to have an adventure of a life time.

It makes me cry up sometimes that we have created a community around the things he made yet we ignore the most important part

To be small, in a big world, and let the took side that is in all of us take us to the ends of the earth, meet new peoples.

>> No.28938206

>Sam's last fucking thoughts before death was "gee do you remember strawberries"
Hahaha, what? Really?

>> No.28938244

Yeah, don't you remember? On the slopes of Mount Doom when he and Frodo were ready to cook to death after the ring was ruined?

>> No.28938278

He's still in Angmar as of LotRO, at least in the first part of the story.

>> No.28938290

It's been a long time, anon.

>> No.28938339

Hobbits are the inserts for tolkiens children, who the entire series was created for.

That's why they exist.

>> No.28938487

Dwarves die of old age because they are not the Children of Iluvatar. They were made in secret by Aulë the smith, and Iluvatar granted them the boon that is life, but they were never part of his plan.

Man's blessing is not death, so much as what comes after. When the final battle has been waged, the spirits of Men will be uplifted and they will sit at Eru's side, to creat new music, where the Ainur and Elves will inherit Middle Earth.

Dwarves, I wager, are the only ones to truly die.

No idea about the hobbits, though

>> No.28939729

If you just want lore read the Appendices at the end of Return of the King and then the entirety of the Silmarillion. You can actually skip LotR and The Hobbit lorewise without missing too much.

>> No.28939813

The Hobbit was never supposed to take place in the same world as Silmarillion: at the time of writing all the namedropping was supposed to be just an inside joke to prof. T's literary friends who were the only ones he had shown his writings of elves and Morgoth. It was only when writing the sequel aka LOTR when he decided to retcon both taking place in Middle-Earth. Obviously, this led to a fuckload of continuity problems - to the point he seriously considered rewriting The Hobbit - but in the end he just made a few edits in it (mostly about the Ring) so that he could focus on his "main" work aka the Silmarillion.

Of course, this made the Hobbits feel tacked on because they were not even mentioned in Silmarillion proper, so he put a note in the intro of LOTR that of all things, Hobbits were "most like Men" and implied they were indeed part of the same creation.

>> No.28939931

This, Hobbits are more or less a human subspecies and I believe it's implied that they share the same afterlife as them (being uplifted out of Middle Earth to chill with God). Their origins are never clearly explained though.

The Witch King set up a kingdom in the far north called Angmar. (Hence the name "Witch King of Angmar") He attacked Arnor, Gondor's sister-kingdom, and won. The Arnorian government was broken and its people scattered.

One thing that I enjoy about this, is that the Barrows near the Shire are the tombs of the kings of Arnor. Merry gets a sword from one of those Barrows and later wounds the Witch King with it allowing Eowyn to kill him. Even after he destroyed their entire kingdom Arnor still got the last laugh on the Witch King.

>> No.28939935

err just imagine that middle bit is in greentext. >_>

>> No.28939994

and they are 2spooky4him

>> No.28940030

I fucking love illustrations of this scene where the Witch-King's head is all invisible and junk.

>> No.28940098

>the gift of hobbits is second breakfast.
What about Elevensies?

>> No.28940110

Read Silmarillion. Don't listen to naysayers, they're just mad as fuck. It's great.

>> No.28940138

>the best powers to have around.
I'm going to be perfectly honest, dude. I'd rather have the power to wrestle gods and win.

>> No.28940153

>one of morgoth's lower-middling minions
>thinks valaraukar are insignicant
>a valarauko carries the Sun

They can get pretty swole, bro. Don't hate.

>> No.28940154

you can't have that power unless you're a god yourself, and even then you're restricted to an advisor role. see gandalf

>> No.28940158

He'll tra-la-la-lally down in your valley

>> No.28940165

>having fun means being a twit

Nah, afraid not, bruv.

>> No.28940181

>get the kid a fucking dog or something.
Why do you think there were so many damn werewolves?

>> No.28940192

>"Yeah, I made some rings. That'll show those fuckers. Yeah!"

>> No.28940203

Arien sounded like a total qt. I'd definitely eclipse her, given the chance.

>> No.28940207

he really just wanted to help Middle Earth accessorize.

>> No.28940237

Indeed. Can't really blame him. The fading of the Noldor brought with it some seriously drab fashion.

>> No.28940259

Actually, Ents are like Dwarves to Yavanna. She weaved them unconsciously in the music and Manwe told her the Ents would awaken... till the time of Elves ended

>> No.28940262

He's fabulous like that.

>> No.28940264

Yeah, Ents and Eagles appeared for similar reasons, right? To crush transgressors

>> No.28940278

What does he feed him, apatosaurs?

>> No.28940293

>giant eagle servants of justice

>> No.28940296


>> No.28940301

>Thorondor, in all of his 54+ meter wingspan, eating Hobbits by the cartload

I could see it

>> No.28940308

>Eagles ate all the Hobbits
>we can't find any Hobbits
>Eagles promptly died out due to lack of Hobbit snacks
>no more giant Eagles either


>> No.28940312


>> No.28940330


>> No.28940331

To be fair I'd eat that too if you know what I implicate with the hidden meaning of my words.

>> No.28940351

>Aule: Hey cutie pie-anna, I just managed to save my bearded creations and they will need wood!
>Yavanna: actually... I dreamed of giant trees stomping on trespassers and weaved them into the music, so they'll exist and walk over your cave stinkers
>Aule: Wha... go talk to Manwe!
>couple hours later
>Yavanna: yes, Eru said they will be real

>> No.28940366

You have the best pictures.

>> No.28940379

Oh god tiny women!

>> No.28940382


>> No.28940387

For once, I do.

>> No.28940390


>> No.28940393


Actually, you know, the more I think of it, the more the plan with the rings made sense.

Sauron wanted to control the free people in Middle-Earth, but he knew he would never be able to do so with the elves because they were wise to his ways. So he made these awesome rings with all these wacky powers that he knew they would have fun with and gave them to the elvish leaders. He failed to mention the fact that wearing them gave him a subtle sort of mind-control on wearer, giving him the ability to govern the governors without anyone really knowing he was doing it.

If Celebrimbor hadn't been smart enough to make the Three Rings, the whole operation probably would have worked.

>> No.28940416


>> No.28940421

This made me laugh hysterically.
Probably because that's EXACTLY HOW IT HAPPENED, just paraphrased a bit.

>> No.28940428

Can't believe how much I hate the fucking Tumblrnose, ruining perfectly good pics

>> No.28940434

Actually, it does. Read the Silmarillion

>> No.28940436


>> No.28940447

Gah... I can live with Sauron being a bishi pretty boy, since he was explicitly described as such by Tolkien. But Morgoth?

Fucking fangirls, trying to make all the manly characters look like little girls.

>> No.28940449

Do you think they ever made passionate love atop his god-anvil?

>> No.28940457

Where else would you hammer somebody?

>> No.28940462

Dunno, Melkor looks pretty manly, and he's heavily modelled after Satan, so presumably he used to be hawt.

I'm going to guess that the reason why there was even the whole thing about him going from being Melkor Bauglir to "the Morgoth," besides power, was him becoming increasingly horrifying to behold.

>> No.28940508

"But I can't get off if my girly men aren't gushing over each other!"

>> No.28940526


>> No.28940533

How many of these female Bilbo pictures are there? I need to know for... reasons.

>> No.28940550


>> No.28940561

I have two others

>> No.28940574

All I've found so far

>> No.28940576

I almost died reading that

>> No.28940586

I'd like to visit her Hobbit hole if ya know what I mean...

Or alternatively

I'd sure like to bag her end. Eh? Eh?

>> No.28940591

good point

>> No.28940619

She'll bag up your end.

>> No.28940626

Is... is that Beorn as some sort of dogman

Dam it internet

Still, I'd hit it.

>> No.28940627

Yeah, that might Sting a little bit.

>> No.28940628

One more after this.

>> No.28940638

It might get hairy.

>> No.28940642

I only hope there is more of Bilmoe after the new film.

>> No.28940643

I thought it was Thorin myself.
It's a shame no Dwarves live near the Shire. They'd probably get along really well with each other.

>> No.28940649

No, Thorin has a thicker beard

This one has a rough goatee. He's gotta be either Beorn or Bard

>> No.28940658

actually Bombur was practically a Hobbit in a Dwarf body.

>> No.28940673

Or kili

>> No.28940685

I want to wear this dress for you.

>> No.28940756

It's Kili, played by Aidan Turner, who was in the British version of Being Human.
Cosplay is pretty expensive and time consuming.

>> No.28940760


>Nothing was ever smoked before tobacco out of the Americas

>> No.28940824

It wasn't actually the ring that scarred him so badly, once it was destroyed it's power over frodo mostly dissapeared. It was mostly the trauma of the entire experience (PTSD) and the scar from where the witchking stabbed him.

>> No.28940835

Dwarves were carved out of stone by Aulë when he became impatient for the arrival of Men and Elves in the age of the Two Trees. Dwarves never really die; their spirits dwell in the roots of the mountains until the World's End. The idea of reincarnation is present to some extent as well, though never directly stated.

Basically, look up views of the afterlife in Judaism and you'll know. Oh, as an aside; Tolkien's Dwarves are Jews;
>short and stocky bodies
>very hairy
>obsessed with gold
>big, hooked noses
>archaic and guttural language that they do not teach to others
>insular and xenophobic culture, almost unchanged for thousands of years
>peerless craftsmen and jewellers
>never forget debts or forgive offenses
>exiled from their ancestral homeland, have been scattered across the world; they have become merchants in their wanderings

>> No.28940869

> The idea of reincarnation is present to some extent as well, though never directly stated.
I do remember dwarves having seven forefathers and each of them could reincarnate up to seven times in their descendants.

>> No.28940872

There does seem to be an implication that being a Ringbearer fucks you up no matter the duration, even Sam ends up taking the boat eventually for the brief period he carried it.

>> No.28940883

>Mfw I learned that all the pipes in "Medieval" Asia were the result of centuries of smoking Marijuana and Opium from India and China.

>> No.28941027


This too mates.

>> No.28941035

Dwarves head through the Shire all the time.

The hobbits there don't really like them much. Bilbo didn't either, at first. They're a bit too rough-and-tumble for quaint little hobbits.

>> No.28941043


>Draughts of plants were never done before tea from the age of colonization

>> No.28941046

I'm pretty sure that was only in the movie, not the book.

>> No.28941107

No, Sam carried the ring for a little while.
In fact, there was an entire freaking chapter in it. The final chapter in Two Towers. Where the fuck were you when you read those tomes, huh?

>> No.28941137

Advanced technology in some fields, less so in others.

They don't build castles, don't walk around in plate armor and have huge armies of soldiers. That makes things like clothes, food and civilian architecture easier.

Think a dorf fort on Very Low natural savagery, Very Low number of beasts, and an ideal spot right next to a friendly community.

>> No.28941152


You know, one of the reasons why I love the Middle-Earth Mythos so damned much is because I see all breeds of fantasy-nerds getting interested in it when normally they'd be at each others throats.

Typical fist-pumping fa/tg/uy has contempt for pristine elves but everyone admits that Fingolfin was a grade A badass bro-elf and likely had sideburns.

Typical fanfic-writing fairy-worshiping wolf-shirt-wearing hambeast has contempt for gritty warrior niggaz, but loves Fingolfin because he's so brave and has such perfect hair and there's so many pretty songs about him.

And here we are sharing the culture, too absorbed in the parts we love to acknowledge the things we do to annoy one another.

>> No.28941204

When Moria was still under Dwarven rule and was exporting Mithril, it was still valued "at least 10 times the value of gold" according to Gandalf. It was not standard issue, mitrhil was only found in two places, Moria and Númenor, latter being rather sunken.

>> No.28941377

Both of those people sound kinda mean-spirited. They should lighten up and reread the Silm.

>> No.28941399

Year FA 62, Sam being 102 years old, he left for Grey Havens when his wife died to reunite with Frodo. He was granted this right because he was a ringbearer, not because it did any particular harm to him.

>> No.28941454


It's been a while since I read the Silmarillion, but I thought the dwarves had no afterlife -- that they returned to the stone from which they were made. At least that's how I interpreted it.

>> No.28941485

I thought it was also found in limited amounts in The Lonely Mountain? Obviously nothing like Moria but still present.

>> No.28941493


The Hobbit is the only main book that actually reads well. LOTR is extremely prosaic and is written in what some would call a very aged and archaic style: slow-paced and extreme emphasis on worldbuilding.

The Silmarillion reads like a history textbook, which makes sense considering that's more or less what it is. That being said, all three are worth reading as well as things like Unfinished Tales, Children of Hurin and whatnot, but I think you'll enjoy reading The Hobbit the best, seeing as it's the only one that was designed and written to be an enjoyable, stand-alone story.

>> No.28941510


But like 90% of fantasy doorstop epics are written in the exact same way that LotR is written. Those that aren't tend to be Sword and Sorcery pastiches.

>> No.28941540


The ones that are written in the latter half of the 20th century? LOTR's style is due to its country of origin and age.

>> No.28941565


Yes they might have a little less of a travelogue feel but emphasis on worldbuilding is pretty much almost universal.

Even the fantasy deconstructionists like GRRM, Abercrombie, and Erikson tend to tell stories that are somewhat slow moving and use a fuckton of worldbuilding. It's just few have the background that Tolkien had.

So we get endless boring zillion part epics like Eddings and Jordan wrote because they sell and writers are going to stick with whatever pays the bills

>> No.28941579


A lot of those are just aping Tolkien because he's the grand-daddy of fantasy.

>> No.28941619

I always interpreted Melkor as that guy that brought a vuvuzela for the creation of the world and then he got manchildish butthurt when no one thought it was funny.

>> No.28941705

They invented and utilize crop rotation.
Mean several harvests a year fro each field and not ruining the farmland with single crop nutrient leeching.

>> No.28941903

Funny that his own book has a line in it where the hobbits get told the only reason they can live their peaceful life was in ignorance at the heels of those that -are- full of ambition and power. That's part of the growth of the hobbits in general; they learn their simple life isn't so simple as it appeared on the surface. Ignorance of outside events didn't mean those events didn't happen.

Those far greater than them protected them. Left to their own devices, the hobbits would have been overrun long ago. It's also one of the reasons the Scouring of the Shire being left out is such a shame for the movies. It's the capstone of this lesson. The hobbits could no longer pretend their lives were simple and innocent just because the wars didn't happen on their doorstep. That war found their doorstep at last, and they had to deal with it to continue living in the way they wanted. Suddenly the hobbits had to fight for their ideals.

I don't think Tolkien had any particular 'lesson' in any of it. In the end it's an epic tale of various people all trying to survive another day. Fighting not for glory but for their way of life. They have to survive mad gods and more, and at the end the heroes get the girls for their trouble. Except for the one that didn't because not everything ties up clean. Not completely.

It's just a story of life and people.

>> No.28942496

>he did lose a number of friends in the trenches
Bar Lewis he lost all his friends to the trenches.

>> No.28943178

You might like this one.

>> No.28943571



>> No.28943882


>asking for an explanation of why moe fans ruin everything

Although frankly these are kinda cute

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