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[ERROR] No.28874436 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Why did he want to avoid the Mines of Moria before he knew they'd fallen to orcs?

>> No.28874461

>>28874436
Because he knew nothing had been heard from there in a while and assumed the worst?

Possibly he'd traveled through them recently too, and had reason to believe the vast majority of it was awful.

>> No.28874491

They're really boring without orcs.

>> No.28874516

Did he feel anything when he discovered the Tomb of Balin, whom he once had an adventure with?

>> No.28874527

>>28874436
It may be my faulty memory, but i think he wasn't surprised to see the balrog show up, only horrified that the worst happened.

>> No.28874735

>>28874436

Gandalf has heard the Dwarves were driven out
Legolas mentions an evil the Dwarves had awoken
Gloin spoke of a nameless fear
Dain spoke of seeing Durin's Bane

He knew something dark and powerful resided in Moria. The extent of its influence or power was unknown to him. He could have speculated it was maiar.

>> No.28874760

>>28874735
If even Legolas knew, why did Gimli not know?

>> No.28874777

>>28874760
Two of his sons went to Moria, along with one of his closest friends(Balin). He was in denial. Why do you think he's wailing madly when they find Dwarf corpses by the dozen?

>> No.28874813

>>28874436
He'd probably pissed off the locals, the old coot.

>> No.28874846

Why didnt the dwarves have anyone high level enough to kill the balrog?

Actually why were the orcs even a threat to the mines? All the dwarves had to do was close the doors and laugh at the orcs while shooting arrows from hidden slits.

>> No.28874865

He was racist against Dwarves

>> No.28874875

>>28874846
The Balrog drove the dwarves off, then the orcs moved in.

>> No.28874883

>>28874875
No, the orcs were fighting the dwarves first.

>> No.28874891

Rolled 59

>>28874846

Because the Balrog is on the same power level as Sauron.

>> No.28874895

>>28874883
Well, yeah, but the dwarves could handle orcs. The orcs were not able to take Moria.

>> No.28874916

>>28874846

Balrogs are maiar. Its kinda like being an archangel or demi-god.

>> No.28874934

>>28874916
Or a Gandalf.

>> No.28874943

>>28874895
but the diary that the fellowship found says that the orcs were driving the dwarves back into the mines?

>> No.28874945

>>28874934
Right an archangel or a demi-god, that's what he said.

>> No.28874950

>>28874934

True, but though Gandalf was able to go toe to toe with the Balrog, it would have been much more difficult to do both that AND protect his fellowship of comparativelty squishy mooks.

>> No.28874951

>>28874943
the diary's full of lie and bullshift

>> No.28874961

>>28874943
That diary belonged to Balin's expedition party. They ventured into Moria later on, when the Balrog had driven out the original Dwarven inhabitants and the orcs had moved in.

>> No.28874966

>>28874950
>comparativelty

Comparatively. My brain is full of fcuk today.

>> No.28874973

>>28874891
so you're saying gandalf coul 1vs1 sauron?

>> No.28874981

>>28874966
nigga no one's going to confuse comparativelty for anything other than comparatively

>> No.28874995

>>28874973
Maybe, maybe not.

Even though they're all Maiar, there are some differences in how powerful they are.

>> No.28875003

>>28874961
So balin's expedition got owned by orcs?

>> No.28875020

>>28875003
Yep.

>> No.28875031

Rolled 36

>>28874973

If he could manage to get the gods to back him 100% and put a convenient lake to quench Sauron's fires in at the bottom of their fall...yes.

But generally, no. Gandalf is weak in combat, but very wise. He's an Odin-like wise wanderer figure.

>> No.28875036

>>28875003
Eventually.

Dwarves are awesome, but it was a numbers game. They just got overrun.

>> No.28875045

>>28875036
why didnt they just bring more dwarves?

>> No.28875047

>>28874973
If Eru was like "go to town on the fucker, no limits" he'd have a pretty good shot. Sauron was never really combat-oriented and Gandalf did beat a Balrog, which were soldiers. Maybe he couldn't win if ring status was equal though, since Sauron's ring is more potent than Gandalf's.

>> No.28875052

>>28874973

They are on the same level. Gandalf was actually afraid of Sauron. Alatar and early Saruman however could probably have killed him. Gandalf post-Balrog was around Saruman level.

>> No.28875067

>>28875031
Sauron was weak in combat, but very sneaky. The combat oriented maiar are the balrogs.

>> No.28875068

>>28875045
arrogance

>> No.28875081

>>28875045
They took as many as would go.

>> No.28875111

Rolled 54

>>28875067

I was under the Impression that between the ring and his general proficiency at forging that he was fairly good in combat. My mistake.

Either way, it's a pity how they treat Gandalf in the movies...

>> No.28875118

>>28874973
In the latest movie gandalf does 1v1 sauron, and loses, but goes toe to toe for a while

In the books, he probably wouldn't be able to do it either

>> No.28875131

>>28875118

God, that scene annoyed me. More of PJ's fanfic bullshit.

>> No.28875136

Pretty sure he wanted to avoid rousing the Balrog

>> No.28875150

>>28875111
He was fairly good in combat compared to a mortal, not another maiar. The ring wasn't really combat oriented, but magic boosting. Forging is also not a combat skill.

>> No.28875162

>>28875118
Gandalf should totally be able to go toe to toe with Sauron in his guise as the Necromancer.

>> No.28875210

>>28875162
It took several of the wizards to destroy the necromancer according to what he told Bilbo at the end of the book

>> No.28875223

>>28874436
Tall as fuck, dwarves are short as fuck, he probably didn't guess they had gigantic vaulted ceilings.

>> No.28875240

>>28875210

Just finished reading the Hobbit for the first time, even though I read LotR and Silmarillion a decade ago

They didn't destroy the necromancer, they drove him out of Mirkwood.

Also, how do we know that Sauron is the necromancer, for those who can remember such things? That detail wasn't in the Hobbit.

>> No.28875257

>>28875240
It's in Appendix B to the Lord of the Rings.

>> No.28875260

>>28874436
he suspected it the whole time.


he knew it was likely they hadn't succeeded. gimli was optimistic, but if you pay attention gandalf never was.

>> No.28875638

>>28875031
>He's an Odin-like wise wanderer figure.

He totally is Odin. I assume he drinks mead and goes wenching when noone is looking.

>> No.28876163

>>28874516
>he once had an adventure with
Nope.

gandalf is the quest slut, he' done it with hlf Middle Earth

>> No.28879588

>>28875045
No one else volunteered, asshole. They got as many as they could, and then made their move.

>> No.28879625

>>28874516
He was likely very sad. It was as he feared, Anon. Of all the Maiar, Olorin is one of the most sympathetic towards regular folks by far. He tutored under Nienna, after all. Hope, pity, and endurance in the face of adversity are her domain.

>> No.28879704

>>28874436
There weren't news from Moria since a while, you got to expect the worst.

Also, if you can only enter if you know the word friend in elvish, Mellbro, how the fuck orcs entered in Moria?

>> No.28879720

>>28879704
>he thinks that was the only way in
Misty Mountain orcs probably entered via tunnels from other Misty Mountain enclaves

The fuckers infest those mountains until some time in the Fourth Age, Anon.

>> No.28879744

>>28879704
When Angband fell in the north, the goblins ran for the mountains. Over thousands of years, they dug tunnels all through the mountain ranges and eventually happened upon Moria and the Balrog that had escaped there.

>> No.28879752

>>28879704

They came from underground.

>> No.28879755

>Hobbit shows full grown orcs in Moria
>Lotr shows goblins in Moria
Did they shrink in 60 years?

>> No.28879757

>>28879720
Goblins are also exelent tunnelers and the whole complex is filled with extra goblin dug tunnels.

>> No.28879771

>>28875047
>If Eru was like "go to town on the fucker, no limits" he'd have a pretty good shot
>go to town on the fucker, no limits

The first thing I thought of when reading that was that crazy "Cromwell Approval" countdown thing Alucard does in Hellsing before a big fight to remove his inhibitor wards and become even more OP than he already is.

I'd love to see Alucard 1v1 a "no limits" Gandalf the White.

>> No.28879774

>>28874436
Moria... You fear to go into those mines. The dwarves delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of Khazad-dum... shadow and flame.

>> No.28879781

>>28875240
Because Tolkien outright confirmed it. Just like how by technicality Legolas really was present at Mirkwood during the events of the Hobbit; he just wasn't a character. Remember, the Hobbit was written before all the stuff in LOTR even existed. So when he wrote that, Tolkien retroactively stated in his appendices how the Hobbit fit into the grand scheme of things.

>> No.28879791

>>28875045
Why didn't the eagles just carry more dwarves to Moria?

>> No.28879819

>>28879755
Evolution in action. Next they'll lose their eyes.

>> No.28879824

>>28879791
Only one trip per movie policy.

>> No.28879838

>>28875118
It's basically a coin flip.

Galadriel and Gandalf are perhaps the only two beings on Middle-Earth who could take Sauron in a straight-up fight. But it's not guaranteed. And Sauron, being a coward, avoids such toe-to-toe fights whenever he can.

Now, if Gandalf or Galadriel were to seize the Ring, they could be able to defeat Sauron. But the Ring would in turn corrupt them, and you'd get a new Dark Lord of a slightly different flavor.

>> No.28879849

>>28875150
>Forging is also not a combat skill.

>> No.28879867

>>28879755
Eh, orcs in general are pretty diverse. I wouldn't worry yourself over it too much.

>> No.28879878

>>28875047
>Eru
>ever talking to anyone
Son, he doesn't even return Manwe's calls anymore.

>> No.28879895

>>28879791
The Eagles don't do anything, son. The Eagles and Ents serve comparable purposes. Consider how often the Ents help anyone, and you realize how proactive the fucking Eagles are by comparison.

>> No.28879916

>>28879838
>Isildur defeated Sauron in a straight up fight

Anon, I'm pretty sure Aragorn could've defeated Sauron in a straight-up fight. Give that nigga the super jewelry and I'd say it's pretty definite.

>> No.28879948

>>28875031
>He's an Odin-like wise wanderer figure.
Vainamoinen, actually, but close enough.

>> No.28879950

>>28879849
Forging isn't.

Use Magical Device is.

>> No.28879959

>>28879916
Isildur beat Sauron on a fluke that was probably divine intervention.

>> No.28879997

>>28879959
>he thinks there wouldn't be divine intervention for a dude who was certifiably cooler than Isildur

>> No.28879998

>>28879959
faggit luck i say.

>> No.28880009

>>28879781
N-no! Legolas wasn't in the hobbit! Th-that was Peter Jackson being a shitty director and ruining the movie! J-just like he did by giving Smaug two legs!

>> No.28880059

>>28880009
Do you mean Legolas was outside of Mirkwood during the events of The Hobbit?

>> No.28880080

>>28880059
I was just poking fun at the people who are calling "WORST MOVIE EVER" on the hobbit, because of the changes.(It still wasn't very GOOD mind, but it wasn't bad because they gave Legolas some screentime, and gave smaug two legs)

>> No.28880114

>>28874436

He was afraid of going into Moria because of the Balrog, not because orcs. Saruman said so in that the same scene in your pic. Come on op..

>> No.28880120

>>28880009
>J-just like he did by giving Smaug two legs!
So smaug is a wyvern now ?
Do you have any pictures ?
Also when does the second movie ends ?

>> No.28880139

>>28880080
I liked it, it could be better, but I didn't mind the changes, what irked me was how rushed the travel felt (in the book they spend weaks in Esgaroth, and several days in the door) and all that meaningless CGI.

>> No.28880173

>>28880009
>yfw Smaug has four legs in the theatrical version of The Hobbit: An unexpected journey but only 2 in the extended
It was hilarious, I don't know why the change.

>> No.28880179

>>28880120
I absolutely dare you to call Vermithrax a fucking wyvern.

I fucking dare you.

>> No.28880193

>>28880173
>I don't know why the change
Hold on to your butt.
Because he thought people would think the dragon was unrealistic.

>> No.28880228

>Attempts to re-colonize Moria fail and the Dorfs get wiped out by Orcs
>Somehow Gimli does not know about this

How is this even possible? It's not like it was relatively recent or anything, and it's not like others (including Dwarves) did not know how badly the expedition went.

>> No.28880249

>>28880228
Ballin was pretty ballin, so all dwarves thought he was gonna make it.

>> No.28880257

>>28880179
2 legs + 2 wings = wyvern

>> No.28880292

>>28879959
it was more like, the player of Isildur rolled 5 20's in a row, and on the DM's disbelief asked to roll a 6th and rolled a 19.

"I roll to attack the ring"
"Well you can't actually attack the ring, but as a called shot, I'll allow you to attack his hand"
20. "Woooooooo!"
*sigh* "Ok, roll to confirm."
20. *stands and dances*
"I don't believe this, roll it again..."
20. *hip thrusts*
"No. Way."
"Ahahaha! What'll happen if I roll another 20?"
"If you roll another 20... if you roll another one, fuck it, he dies. He dies from having his fingers cut off."
20. *everyone at the table cannot believe this are starts wondering if the dice is weighted*
"I don't believe this. I don't believe it. The entire campaign is fucked now..."
"If I roll one more, we win. We just win."
"..."
20.
"Alright. But now. Now... Uh... Roll a will save of 20. Mr.Luckyfuck. It's just the dice, your stats don't count..."
"What?huh, fine. I got this..."
19.
"The ring... it's your precious..."

>> No.28880306

>>28880228
Willful ignorance? I don't think it was completely confirmed that they'd bitten it, but it's pretty obvious that Gimli's all "Hahaha, nothing bad could possibly have happened, right?" while everyone who's more realistic just sort of shifts uncomfortably because they don't have the heart to outright tell him Balin and all his buddies had almost certainly been brutally murdered.

>> No.28880332

>>28880228

They didn't know at all. Balin had led an expedition to Moria, and for a few years sent back regular reports, and then... nothing. Nobody knew what had happened to them.

In the book the members of the Fellowship all suspected. Gimli was a little more hopeful than the others that Balin might be alive, but he was never that openly optimistic. After they had traveled through Moria for a bit with no sign of dwarves, he theorized Balin had maybe never even made it there.

None of them knew for sure until they reached the tomb.

>> No.28880375

>>28880292

Wow. I would be so pissed if I needed to roll 5 20s for a single attack.

>> No.28880380

>>28874436

http://youtu.be/YH4Xr6GIp4U?t=3m51s

How could you fail to absorb this information?

>> No.28880391

>>28880332
Yes they did, King Dain was visited by messengers from Mordor offering the Dwarven Rings and Moria back if the Dwarves assisted in finding the One Ring.

This was after Balin's expedition was wiped out.

And they hadn't heard from Balin in 20+years, I think it would be reasonable to assume that they were wiped out when you couple that with the offer from Mordor.

>> No.28880395

>>28880375
To murder a god by cutting off his fingers you need 5 20s

>> No.28880409

>>28880391

Sauron's emissary is hardly someone I would take at his word. But yes, it had been a long time. Odds were, Balin and everyone with him was dead. But nobody actually KNEW.

>> No.28880413

>>28880257

so birds are now wivern?

>> No.28880419

Why didn't Smog just evolve more legs?

>> No.28880427

>implying orcs are the worst thing you can find in Moria

>> No.28880431

>>28879916

It's worth noting that in the book, Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's finger AFTER they had killed him. and it wasn't a one-on-one battle. The armies had fled in fear before Sauron, sure, but five fighters remained to face him; Elendil, Isildur, Gil-Galad, Elrond, and Cirdan.

>> No.28880446

>>28880375
it's not that it was NEEDED, but that it HAPPENED.

A great DM knows how to let the players have fun.
A good DM knows when to fudge the stats and let the dice make the game.
A bad DM wouldn't have let what happened with the finger cutting instant kill happen.

>> No.28880456

>>28880427
I don't know, by then all dwarves were dead.

>> No.28880505

>>28880456
Gandalf feared moria because he knew or was strongly suspecting durins bane

>> No.28880506

Actually I applaud Jacksons change of Smaug into a bipeded dragon. Even though I disagree, that Tolkien's dragons were quadped, or the very least Smaug was, it is so immensly satisfying to see all the DnD losers flip their shit because of that systems stupid conventions about how many legs a dragon must have

In your faces, dnd faggots. And fuck you.

>> No.28880518

>powerlevel bullshit in muh LOTR

No

Noooooooooo

>> No.28880520

>>28880413
Do they breath fire ?

>> No.28880522

>>28880431
Yeah, and those dudes could pretty plausibly take him down. Eldar Strong, Numenor Strong, etc.

>> No.28880526

>>28880506
I loved smaugs dialog tho

>> No.28880533

Just saw the newest hobbit

I was dissapointed, again it was too long, had poor pacing, and too much made up shit.

>> No.28880558

>>28880520

They don't but neither wyvern do

>> No.28880561

>>28880506
I don't know how was in the rest of places, but In my town people lose their shit because "not muh Tolkien's Smaug" not because D&D

>> No.28880562

>>28880526
Good on ya.

>> No.28880577

You ever smell a big hole full of dwarves?

>> No.28880593

>>28880533
>poor pacing
And too much CGI, that were the things I disliked the most.
I by too much CGI I mean Bolgo and Azog who actually were played by real guys with makeup...imagine when Jackson talked to them about not being in the movie because CGI was going to be better, and it wasn't, really take a look at them before the CGI, they were way better.

>> No.28880599

>>28874846
>>28874846
There were a shit ton of them. And in fact, it wasnt the first time a Dwarven mountain city had been slaughtered out of existence. And of course, the Balrog.

>> No.28880618

Speaking of dragons, how many are there and where do the live?

>> No.28880637

>>28880618
After the Hobbit, zero.

There're cold drakes thought, those live in the far north, they're stupid, can't fly, and have 4 legs.

>> No.28880638

>>28880558
They are half-wyvern then

>> No.28880639

>>28880593
kinda funny that the hobbit will age more rapidly than lotr

>> No.28880666

>>28880618

By the time of the Hobbit most of them live in the Withered Hearth and the northern mountains. They destroyed a number of dwarf kingdoms up there.

It's anybody's guess how many were left. Going into the northern mountains in Middle-Earth was a bad fucking idea, so nobody was doing a head count.

>> No.28880667

>>28880637
I think there are more dragons, Smaug wasnt the last one. It is just that they appear so seldom so no one think they exist

>> No.28880682

>>28880522

Mind you, it didn't go so well for some of them.

>> No.28880688

>>28874436

Balrog

/thread

>> No.28880702

>>28880667
How is it that Smaug was the last to stay in a populated area? I thought Smaug was weak shit compared to some of the other dragons

>> No.28880714

>>28880682
Oh, sure, any one of them would have been toast, and the two greatest fell, but still, five on one at their levels means I'm pretty sure Sauron wasn't getting out of that fight intact

>> No.28880716

>>28880702
Mutual kills, armies obliterated by predecessors, etc.

>> No.28880720

>>28875045
In the LOTR universe there are a lot of things you can say more about. Dwarves are not one of them. Since you know, designed so badly their numbers have decreased since their creation. Always getting lower. Never increasing.

>> No.28880723

>>28880702
No, he was pretty tough by the standards of his age. Dragons of the First Age were greater, but the greatest were slain back then.

>> No.28880726

>>28880714

You do sort of have to wonder how that shit went down. Almost all the major elf-lords had extensive magical powers, and the Numenoreans were borderline superhuman.

>> No.28880736

>>28880702
Prob because most of the dragons slumber and sleep for ages

>> No.28880737

>>28880714
They should have done it as a super sentai faceoff.

The only question is, what color would everyone be?

>> No.28880741

>>28880702

Ptobably because there was more than enough gold for them to fight over in the ruined dwarf kingdoms of the north.

>> No.28880751

>>28880702
Actually he was the toughest around, though there weren't many of them around.

>> No.28880763

On the topic of Moria, this is how I bard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pISzxdEgDCU

>> No.28880782

>>28880526
I was disappointed that they did almost the entire boast but left out "my tail, a thunderbolt!". My favorite line from the entire speech and it got omitted. I was waiting for it to come too, and the movie kept cutting away to Mary Sue healing Kili and whatever.

>> No.28880786

Taken from tolkiens gateway regarding fire drakes
>Smaug, the last of the truly powerful dragons, was slain by Bard in the late Third Age.[2] We can be sure that he was not the last of the fire-drakes, though, because Gandalf refers to fire-breathing dragons in the time before the War of the Ring, nearly eighty years after Smaug's death.[

>> No.28880791

>>28880782

They also changed the "tenfold shields" line.

>> No.28880796

what did gandalf and the balrog talk about do you think? they're both spirits of immense power, and the duel wouldn't have been exclusively a sword fight but a battle of ideals

>> No.28880798

>>28880726
Numenoreans were totally superhuman. Didn't they use steel bows and shit?

>> No.28880799

>>28880737
Red: Elendil
Blue: Cirdan
Green: Elrond
Yellow: Isildur
Black: Gil-Galad

>> No.28880802

>>28880791
I am just happy that they let him speak at all

>> No.28880816

>>28880798

Yeah. Steel bows. And they were all taller and stronger than humans on mainland ME, and they had longer lifespans. And, of course, they knew magic, given they made those enchanted swords the hobbits ended up using, and the Seat of Seeing, and the indestructible black substance that comprised Orthanc and the outer wall of Minas Tirith.

>> No.28880825

>>28880799

No way, Isildur is totally black. Gil-Galad is blue.

>> No.28880835

>>28880726
>>28880737
>Sauron withstanding the brunt of Gil-galad's devastating NOLDOR KICK

>> No.28880837

>>28880796
>So what are you doing later?
>Mah, I dunno, probably babysit those fuckers
>Fuck, the cameras are here, quickly wave your swords
>Ohhh aaggggg, filthy creature, son of the nastiest pile of excrements!!
>Hey, getting too much in the rol, don't we?

>> No.28880851

>>28880799
>>28880825
Gil-Galad should totally be Blue before Black, at least.

>> No.28880880

>>28876163
Read the first few chapters of the Hobbit carefully. Gandalf had been dragging Tooks on adventures for generations.

>> No.28880890

>>28880825
Is Isildur supposed to have been a mysterious badass at the time?

>> No.28880894

>>28880880
He never Took me on adventures...

>> No.28880911

>>28880890

Yes, actually. He did a mysterious badass ninja mission back on Numenor, where he infiltrated Sauron's evil temple to save a last cutting of the White Tree, the night before Elendil and his people abandoned the island.

>> No.28880926

>>28880816
What's the black goo Ridley, you hack?

>> No.28880976

>>28880911
>Isildur where the fuck are you going? We are leaving in a minute!
>I am just gonna go and fetch something I forgot about
>got dammit Isildur

>> No.28880980

>>28880926
It's Alien jizz.

>> No.28880995

>>28880837

>Gandalf and the balrog go to a bar

>> No.28881025

>>28880976

>Isildur learned from Amandil that King Ar-Pharazôn, under the influence of Sauron, purposed to cut down Nimloth. One night Isildur went in disguise to Armenelos and from the courts of the King stole a fruit from the tree before it was cut down, thus preserving the line of the White Tree. It is said that he received grievous wounds from the King's guards before escaping but that they all healed when a leaf first appeared on the sapling that grew from the fruit he had taken.

I really wish Tolkien had written a story about the last days of Numenor, and the secret society shit going on with Elendil and company. If only for that bad ass moment where Sauron defies the eagles of Manwe and shrugs off a lightning bolt to the face.

>> No.28881031

>>28874973
He could, but while he's on middle earth in a mortal body the gods nerfed his power so he can't go around solving every ones shit for them. He's normally a good deal more powerful.

>> No.28881039

>>28880995
Were there bars in the darkness before time?

>> No.28881060

>>28881039
Of course not. Why do you think the world was created in the first place?

>> No.28881071

>>28881031
>>28874973

I don't think Gandalf could face Sauron. When he was Olorin, and the Valar chose him for the mission, he initially didn't want to go, because he was scared of the power of Sauron and didn't think he could face him. Mawe said that was all the more reason Olorin should go.

Even as Gandalf the White, he tells Gimli he is the most dangerous being Gimli will ever meet in Middle-Earth, unless he were to come before the throne of Sauron.

>> No.28881076

Because he was out of mana.

>> No.28881085

>>28881025
Tolkien created a setting more than he did stories.

It's a primary reason I'm so pissed at Christopher for not letting anyone else do anything in it. Hopefully that will change when he dies.

>> No.28881100

>>28881060
Fair point.

>> No.28881106

>>28881085
What's Christopher doing? Just not letting anyone else do stories in the setting? I can understand why he wouldn't, but yeah it's such a waste to not do anything else with it.

>> No.28881107

>>28881085
Yeah, Tolkien actually wanted his world to be expanded and expounded on by other authors, didn't he?

>> No.28881122

>>28881071
Its hard to give a definitive yes or no because his power always fluctuates. I think in the simiralian a human just rides up to his fortress, challenges him to a duel, and slaps his shit. Saurons power is more rooted in his ability to undermine his enemies. Kinda winning battles before they start.

>> No.28881129

>>28881085

I'm totally fine with Christopher's position. I love Tolkien's world, but I don't think anybody could write it like the man himself. It's nice to dream about "what if" scenarios, but I don't want to see someone else to try and take over the setting.

>> No.28881142

>>28881122
>I think in the simiralian a human just rides up to his fortress, challenges him to a duel, and slaps his shit.

That never happened.

>> No.28881156

>>28881122
That "human" was Luthien's bf, she aint going to choose a weakling as bf.

>> No.28881157

>>28881122
You mean like the time he snuck into Numenoreans bedrooms and touched their dicks, and they were so embarrassed when he threatened to tell everyone about it that they went along with his crazy Human Sacrifice War on the Valar plan?

>> No.28881194

>>28881085
>>28881106
>>28881107
>>28881129
Just imagine...new stories. What would they be like? Would they go forwards, or fill in spaces in between?

>> No.28881206

>>28881142
Kinda happens. Lifted from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BAthien

>They came to Sauron's Isle. Here Lúthien sang for Beren to hear. He answered her call, thinking that it was a figment of his imagination and in his grief at the loss of his friend sang in answer. Then Sauron hearing that Lúthien was there became filled with malice. He had heard of her beauty and wished to bring her prisoner to Morgoth, his master as a pretty toy to play with. So he sent wolf after wolf to slay Huan, but each time the hound killed them. Finally he sent his most powerful werewolf Draugluin, who Huan also defeated. After this Sauron decided to finish Huan off himself. Filled with confidence that he was the one that would finally kill the famed hound, he transformed himself into the most powerful werewolf ever born. In this form Huan wavered and leapt aside, but Lúthien remained to face him. Sauron lunged for her, but she lifted a fold of her enchanted cloak and struck him, momentarily disorienting him and Huan then attacked him. The two fought for long, but Huan eventually won despite Sauron changing into many different shapes and forms. Finally Lúthien commanded him to leave and to surrender the lordship of the Isle to her or have his body ruined and destroyed by the terror of the wrath of Huan. Sauron gave up the keys of the tower and changed into a hideous vampire, before he flew away into the night-sky, shamed and defeated.

>> No.28881214

>>28881157
explain please, this sounds hilarious

>> No.28881215

>>28881157
Sauron's got some serious PC plans going on there.

>> No.28881221

>>28881206
>Lúthien
>human

Dude...

>> No.28881227

>>28881194
Probably fill spaces in between.

Me, I'd be happy with a fuckhuge sourcebook with population figures, and the like and the like for p&p. Kind of the like the WoW rpg books that came out years ago. I liked those.

>> No.28881255

>>28881142
You're absolutely right, it was Fingolfin (one of the Noldor elves) riding to Angband to challenge Morgoth, once called Melkor.

>> No.28881261

>>28881227
But how do you even P&P in Middle-Earth? Wouldn't you have to keep striking down requests to play as elven superbeings?

>> No.28881313

>>28881221
Ya, I confused Huar with Beren. I had last read the Silmarillion like a decade ago.

>> No.28881328

>>28881085
well he wanted to write more stories too, but instead he had to rewrite his old ones for copyright reasons.

>> No.28881344

>>28881313
>confusing a dog and a man
You must have interesting tastes

>> No.28881347

I bring up the "setting creation" aspect because we only have 4 instances of elf/human marriage, but they are so close, and there are so many populations of elves like the Avari who lived among men and dwarves from the get go, that it seems incredibly likely they interbred more often than 4 times. Bilbo claims fae ancestry of all things, and it's treated with the same truth hood as Bullroarer creating golf.

I want those stories.

>> No.28881353

>>28881261
There aren't more elven superbeings, well, the only ones left are the famous ones, who are NPCs. If you want to be an elf, you are going to be a silvan, who are slightly above peak human.

>> No.28881366

>>28881347
It's because of those rotten Tooks, and all the trouble they caused.
Although, in fairness, the Took in question could've possibly just hooked up with some minor Maia.

>> No.28881386

>>28881353
>peak human
Son, peak humans in-setting would stomp namby-pamby Silvan elves. Numenor Strong.

>> No.28881411

>>28881386
Numenor turned into basically a setting-appropriate incarnation of /tg/'s favorite brand of racial supremacy, HFY, didn't they? Went full retard and declared war on Valinor after subjugating those weaker than themselves and generally bullying folks, not to mention palling around with Sauron, of all people.

>> No.28881418

>>28881366
Is it wrong that I find the Melian/Thingol romance more compelling than the self insert Beren/Luthien stuff?

>> No.28881422

>>28881386
Numenor are half-elves, dude.

>> No.28881431

>>28881386
>This is what Children of Hurin actually believe.gif

>> No.28881447

>>28881418
>Melian/thingol
Too much weird, I remember readind that the guy stood there, spying her, for months...what a perv.

>> No.28881452

>>28881411
>yfw Valinor is Israel

>> No.28881467

>>28881422
Only the first king was, dude. They weren't all descended from Elros. That doesn't even make sense; how would a guy even have a kingdom if everyone had to be descended from him personally? He'd have to sit around making the kingdom first.

Yes, the line of kings was indeed of elven (and Maia via Melian) blood. However, "all of the Numenorians" were not of elven blood.

>> No.28881486

>>28881418
>>28881447
Melian was a total qt and a perfectly loyal queen and waifu supreme

>> No.28881491

>>28881467
All the really impressive ones were, though.

>> No.28881501

>>28881418
I know, right? How badass did Thingol have to be to land an angel?
Jesus

>> No.28881508

>>28881431
>he doesn't believe in the inherent power and nobility of the Edain

>> No.28881532

>>28881491
>Anon doesn't think Turin Turambar was impressive

>> No.28881541

>>28881508
>Thinking Numenoreans are liek the Valar
>year 213 fourth age
>ISHYRDDT

>> No.28881567

>>28881452
Nah, Valinor has too much legitimate magical mojo to be remotely comparable to some smaller-than-Wisconsin place like Israel.

Valinor strong, bro. Just because the Valar gave up on helping your dumbass doesn't mean they won't hammer you into oblivion.

>> No.28881596

>>28881567
>Nah, Valinor has too much legitimate magical mojo
You do know that Israel has the nukes, right?

They're also the second most likely country to use them, after Pakistan

>> No.28881607

>>28881532
The most impressive thing he did was lay in a ditch and stab a dragon that didn't know he was there.

>> No.28881626

>>28881607
Yeah, he was a badass mofo.

>> No.28881657

Who would win in a fight
A dwarf or an Elf
The elf spit in the dwarfs beer and the dwarf pissed on a tree or something

>> No.28881673

>>28881607
Don't forget the part where he fucked his sister on accident. It's important.

>> No.28881677

>>28881657
Where's the elf from? Most dorfs are fairly standard

>> No.28881693

>>28881657
It depends on the elf, the dwarf, and the facts and circumstances. I'm inclined to say the average elf is probably quicker, more experienced, and more likely to win this fight, but I really couldn't tell you without more facts and circumstances, Anon.

Paint a better scenario, and you'll get more meaningful answers.

>> No.28881697

>>28881677
Iunno, Pick somewhere generic to go with the dwarf. No godelfs

>> No.28881718

>>28881657
In lotr? an elf, your average elf is better than your average dwarf.

>> No.28881735

>>28881697
>>28881693
Mirkwood elves were weak enough that they went 1-1 with normal dorfs but got their shit wrecked by Bilbo's homeboys. Other elves can have crazy DBZ powerlevels.

>> No.28881746

>>28881697
Even the silvans, who are the lowest of the elves, are way above humans and dwarves. All badass dwarves are dead, they tended to piss off a lot of people and that got them killed.

>> No.28881758

>>28881735
>got their shit wrecked by Bilbo's homeboys
You're exaggerating hardcore, son. Besides, Thranduil is full-Sindar, so he's got access to crazy DBZ power levels, as you said.

>> No.28881776

>>28881758
Only Thranduil and Legolas are Sindar, rest are weakass Silvan.

>> No.28881788

>>28881746
Even in the Silmarillion, the dwarves greatest feats were mostly material and crafting feats. I guess technically they used treachery to kill Thingol , but that wasn't a legit fight. They did tolerably well against Glaurung, but that was largely a crafting, check-out-this-bitching-armor-vs-fire feat, rather than a strength or skill feat.

Dwarves just aren't as badass as other races in Middle-Earth.

>> No.28881797

>>28881776
>>28881746

What made Silvan weaker than Sindar?

>> No.28881815

>> No.28881816

>>28881788
They weren't even made by Eru, but he did adopt them.

>> No.28881828

>>28881797
Eugenics

>> No.28881851

>>28881797
Time
Sindar born earlier and beheld the wonders of the early world. Silvan born were the world was already corrupted by Morgoth and Sauron

>> No.28881882

>>28874846

Not just anyone can kill a Balrog. Badass Elves could because the're naturally close/embued with magic and Maiar can. It's not a matter of simple badassery. The things are magical demon-spirits.

>> No.28881890

>>28881815
>mispelled Balrog as Barlog

fgsfds

>> No.28881891

>>28881797
The Sindar were almost as cool as the proper Valaquendi because, while they didn't hit up Valinor properly, they got to hang out in Doriath with Thingol and Melian, and Melian, being a Maia, shone with the light of Valinor in a sense. Thus, their guarded kingdom of Doriath was greatly enriched, and they were the greatest of the elves who never personally saw the Undying Lands, due to their proximity to one of the more powerful Maiar.

Conversely, Sylvan elves are descended from the bitch-niggas who were too afraid to even go as far as the Sindar had, and so they haven't derived the benefits of Valinor save where they are associated with Sindar and Valaquendi later.

It's all about getting cooler by association, Anon. The closer one got to the Valar, the more powerful you could theoretically be, compounded by whatever talents and abilities one had personally.

>> No.28881905

>>28881890
I think the original was in Vodkarunes. not sure who translated them.

>> No.28881908

>>28875003

Yes. If the Balrog got to them there wouldn't be anything left of the corpses.

>> No.28881920

>>28881815
Source is there more?

>> No.28881923

>>28881758
There were 512 dwarves and one hobbit versus 1000 elves and 300 men and the books was making it sound like it could go either way

>> No.28881935

>>28876163

He's the Guy That Makes Shit Happen for the forces of good in Middle-Earth. He either is directly responsible for or had a big hand in kicking off everything.

>> No.28881945

>>28881923
Those dwarves were in their fortress.

>> No.28881947

>>28881923
The dwarves were also holed up in a mountain fortress.

>> No.28881950

>>28881923
Clearly that's because of the hobbit.

>> No.28881957

>>28879704

There's a fuck-ton of random crevices and holes in the mountains. The East and West Gates aren't the only entrances into the place when you can scale mountains. Besides, if they were the only ways in and they were sealed shut for X fuckton of years there wouldn't be any oxygen in the place.

>> No.28881968

>>28881945
>>28881947
No, the party was. Dain and his reinforcements were outside.

>> No.28881974

>>28881950
Well, an invisible little fuck that can stab your leadership in the kidneys is actually a pretty big asset.

>> No.28882032

>>28880667

Bullshit. Whenever a dragon makes an appearance everyone in Middle-Earth knows about it. How do you think everyone and their mom knows about what happened to some dwarf kingdom way in the ass-end of Middle-Earth near Rhun of all places?

>> No.28882059

>>28881815
>prettyboy Sauron
I know it's not that far from the truth but it still irks me. I don't want to see that shit.

>> No.28882064

>>28881085

You want every wannabe-fanfic author have their way with Middle-Earth? I don't want LOTR to turn into the Star Wars Expanded Universe.

>> No.28882088

>>28882064
I would like that very much actually. For every shitty EU story, there's a Thrawn.

>> No.28882100

Speaking of continued writings, Tolkien was working on a story set after the WotR in Gondor where a dark cult was cropping up, yeah? Whatever happened to those notes?

>> No.28882115

>>28881085
I'd rather it be a holy relic of intellectual property, passed down from father to son.

I bet Christopher Tolkien has come out with pages and pages of documents, stories that his son will have to sort through and eventually publish

>> No.28882124

>>28882088

No. Thrawn is THE universally-claimed good one. The grand majority of the EU is shit.

>> No.28882135

>>28882115
Look what happened to Dune.

>> No.28882136

>>28875031
>put a convenient lake to quench Sauron's fires in at the bottom of their fall

Didn't Sauron bake Gil-galad alive just by grappling him barehanded?

I wouldn't feel comfortable with anything but an ocean down there.

>> No.28882152

>>28882100
tolkien stopped after a couple of pages IIRC, said it was too grimdark

would have been interesting though

>> No.28882163

>>28882115
If Guy Gavriel Kay took over like how he helped with Silmarillion, that'd be fucking awesome.

At this rate though, we won't get Silmarillion movies until 2030

>> No.28882170

>>28881920
Wouldn't you like to know?

>> No.28882183

>>28882152
It sounded a little more grounded and self-contained than his other stories. That might just be my interpretation.

But I'd kill for some Gondornoir.

>> No.28882200

>>28881920
Search for Phobs on tumblr, deviantart, etc. I'm still questing for all of the material, but I'll link you the DA here. He does other stuff, especially Mongolian history stuff.

>http://phobs.deviantart.com/

>> No.28882245

>>28882059
>I don't want to see that shit.
Why not?

>> No.28882269

>>28882245
>filename

At least rename it Annatar.

>> No.28882288

>>28881194

It would never be the same.

>> No.28882297

>>28882245
Because, especially in LotR, evil is fucked up and dark and twisted. Just because he was angelic once and popped that mask over his tumor of a face once or twice since then doesn't mean he should be all bishonen.

>> No.28882304

>>28882245
Not that anon, but for me I just don't like that type of artstyle.

>> No.28882328

>>28882297
He is cute though.

>> No.28882334

>>28882269
Duly noted, although Tar-Mairon is my personal favorite.

>> No.28882336

>>28882170

Get this gay shit outta here.

>> No.28882340

>Guy named Sauron
>People trust him
Srly? I bet you would trust Malicious McSinester

>> No.28882356

>>28882340
>implying you wouldn't trust a guy named King Excellent

Tar-Mairon called, he says sacrifice your cousin, Anon.

>> No.28882395

>>28882356
It doesn't have to be a virgin sacrifice right? Because I'm kind of attached to my younger cousin.

>> No.28882412

>>28882356

>>28882395
Nah, any cousin will do, as long as they have antiquated notions of nobility.

>> No.28882435

>>28882328
>He sees your ring

>> No.28882484

>>28882435
Why are you doing this to me?

>> No.28882497

>>28882356
>>28882412

>this shitty dialogue

>> No.28882511

>>28882484
Doing what, fair Anon?

>> No.28882514

>>28874436
>Why did he want to avoid the Mines of Moria before he knew they'd fallen to orcs?
because those fucking mines have been fought over so many times that even if it was still in dwarven hands it would still be too dangerous. never mind that the last time it fell it was to a Balrog and as far as he knew no one had slain it (and yes if a dwarf killed a Balrog I grantee everyone in middle earth would have heard about it.)

>> No.28882515

>>28882340
>Welcome, Hal Jordan of Earth, here is your new teacher, his name is Sinestro.

>> No.28882519

>>28882412
>>28882356
Fuck, I can see why the Numenoreans succumbed.

>> No.28882533

>>28882497
Vodkarunes are tough, son

>> No.28882552

>> No.28882559

>>28882511
N...Nevermind.

>> No.28882624

>>28882297
In regards to TLoTR general Christian relations Sauron would actually be incredibly attractive as according to traditional Christian doctrine Lucifer is in in fact the second most gorgeous anything in existence aside from God himself. Any mortal who gazes upon lucifer can not help but submit to him by virtue of his angelic beauty alone. You can only be protected by God and your faith in Him.

>> No.28882650

I think the real question is how the LOTR trilogy would have played out with Faenor as the main character.

>> No.28882654

>>28882624
And Sauron was like that too, until he succumbed and it all went out the window.

In LotR good = fair and evil = ugly.

>> No.28882677

>>28882650
>Here, Feanor. Your Uncle Bilbo left you this magic-
>The fuck is this shitty trinket
>Here, let's make it better
>Feanor, what are you doing
>Feanor
>Feanor come back here

INSTEAD OF A DARK LORD YOU SHALL HAVE A KING
NOT DARK BUT BEAUTIFUL AND TERRIBLE AS THE DAWN
ETC ETC

>> No.28882712

>>28882650
>Faenor! The Balrog!
>Fuck your shit Balrog, I'ma come fuck your ass up with my fucking hands you piece of shit motherfucker!

>> No.28882732

>>28882677

You know, Feanor is one of those characters you could put in almost ANY situation and he'd instantly make it worse somehow.

>> No.28882735

>>28882677
>Feanor, what's this?
>The ring my uncle gave me was flawed, I made new ones...one for each of you
>Why they have different colors
>Woah, I feel powerful
>Now, conbine!!
>Con... what?
>Dinozord Balrog!!
>Feanor, the fuck are you...Dinozord Dragon!!

>> No.28882745

>>28880667
>>28880666
Smaug was the last of the fire drakes, intelligent dragons that breathed fire.
All that remained were the cold drakes of the northern mountains.

>> No.28882750

>>28882650
>King Theoden's mind is poisoned by Saruman. He won't- Feanor, wait
>By Eru, Feanor, what are you doing to him
>No, Feanor, that's not how you exorcise a Maiar possession
>NO I DON'T FUCKING WANT HIS HEAD

>> No.28882767

>>28882745

Tolkien never said that, nor did he ever indicate cold drakes were less intelligent than other dragons. Scatha was a cold drake, and he seemed perfectly typical.

>> No.28882770

>>28882732
You spelled better wrong

>> No.28882787

>>28882767
Are they called cold drakes because they breath ice or because they don't call you the morning after?

>> No.28882789

>>28882650
the problem would be that instead of a trilogy it would be a footnote

>1: There was some shit about some uppity asshole named Sauron but he got his shit slapped or something. Whatever.

>> No.28882792

>>28882624
Lucifer isn't Slaanesh Anon he just appears as one of the less eldritch looking angels. All he has would be the angel wings and a glowing face or whatever, where as some of God's angels appear with animal heads and followed by wheels containing their spirits.

No human can look at an angelic being without going insane unless the angel commands them to not be afraid.

>> No.28882824

>>28882787
Because they don't breathe fire.

>> No.28882835

>>28882650
>Hey dol! Merry dol! Ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! Hop along! Fal lal the willow!
>Greetings, stranger! What would a mighty Elvish lord like yourself be a-doing in old Tom's forest, eh?
>No
>No, please
>I was only reading the script
>TOLKIEN MADE ME SAY IT
>FEANOR NO

>> No.28882840

>>28882787

Neither. It means they have no fire. In Tolkien's world there are three types of dragon. cold drakes have no wings and don't breathe fire, fire drakes breathe fire but have no wings, and winged dragons have wings (duh) and also breathe fire.

>> No.28883029

>>28874943
Weren't there only around 100 dwarves in the party that was supposed to reclaim Moria?
And didn't the Orcs have several generations worth of time living in Moria, uncontested?
The dwarves were doomed the moment they decided to go into Moria, mostly because of their own hubris in thinking that they were hotter shit than the orcs who already dwelt there.

>> No.28883066

>>28874777
>two of his sons
man what

>> No.28883208

>this thread

>> No.28883218

>>28880431

I keep hearing this, but as far as I remember Isildur cutting the ring from his hand is what 'slew' him. He didn't bounce up to a corpse and hack it's ring finger off. Isildur even says something along the lines of "I killed him, so I keep the ring".

>> No.28883268

>>28883208

>> No.28883298

>>28883218
I guess Sauron couldn't die so long as he had the ring, so you had to beat him into the ground and take it off him

>> No.28883299

>>28882124
x wing series

>> No.28883345

>>28881882
Early mithology Tolkien had Gondolin invaded by dozens of Balrogs, and "normal" elves killed a shitton of them (dying themselves as well, but still). Feanor fought against multiple ones. Killing a Balrog was definitely something a elf hero single-handedly or a skilled battallion could do.
Very late mithology Tolkien, instead, explicitly mentioned that there always were very few, "not more than 7". Which of course upplays the importance of Glorfinder vs Gothmog or Gandalf's fight itself (and that one took like 10 days or so anyway).

>> No.28883369

>>28883299

Starfighters of Adumar.

>> No.28883422

>>28883298

It was more an epic battle which the Alliance were losing until Isildur managed to cut the ring from his hand, which killed (for now) Sauron.

So like in the film, but Elendil, Gil-Galad, Elrond, and Cirdan were also attacking Sauron at once (and getting the Elendil treatement, though I don't think Cirdan was actually fighting with them, he was just there when Isildur fucked it up for everyone).

>> No.28883543

>>28883422

Sauron was already dead when they cut the ring off him. Cutting it off his hand doesn't magically kill him.

>> No.28883681

>>28882336
>Not liking gay shit
Where do you think we are?

>> No.28883712

>>28883681
Maybe he's a refugee from a less tolerant board.

>> No.28883744

>>28883712
>implying I'm not from a less tolerant board as well but I know what is and what isn't okay on which board.
>implying that less tolerant board isn't gay as a pink unicorn shitting rainbows

>> No.28883745

>>28883712
Would you like to watch some Godzilla movies Anon?
http://www.livestream.com/redsweb

>> No.28883779

>>28883745
Which ones?

>> No.28883841

>>28883779
All of them.

>> No.28883904

>>28883745
As long as we watch the original Gojira in Japanese instead of the US release. Can't fucking stand that annoying as shit narrator/white MC that has no relation to the plot.

>> No.28883907

>>28883841
I'll think about it; working on a memo right now

>> No.28884085

I thought we were talking about LotR lore, not wishing we could shove our dicks into some prettyboy asshole and call it LotR-related?

>> No.28884086

Uh, you do realize that just discussing the books and films is, you know, kinda off-topic? You know, technically?

>> No.28884128

>>28884086
Is it really? I heard Tolkien got a free pass on the teeg, since /lit/ and /tv/ hate it, and it's got elves in it anyway, after all.

>> No.28884145

>>28881076
>dat filename

You magnificent bastard.

>> No.28884165

>>28884085
We're were just discussing the "death" of Sauron and related events, Anon. You must've just missed it.

Got a topic for us? Curious to hear more about Ainur, perchance?

>> No.28884179

>>28882356
>>28882412
>>28882435
>>28882511
>literally reposting the same images from the other thread, in the same order and with the same lame jokes
I'm all for this artstyle and this interpretation is cool, but come on, anon.

>> No.28884181

>>28884128
/lit/ hates Tolkien?

>> No.28884196

>>28884181
/lit/ hates fun

>> No.28884198

>>28884181
I believe they hate pratchet as well.

>> No.28884199

>>28882515
>implying this hasn't been referenced humorously countless times post-Silver age

>> No.28884200

You know what this thread is lacking in?

Spiders.

Spiders as far as the eye can see!

>> No.28884204

>>28884181
Not pretentious enough for them.

>> No.28884220

>>28884196
>>28884198
>>28884204

What the fuck can you talk about on /lit/? How smart you are for figuring out when you make a map of all the locations in James Joyce's Ulysses you make a cross?

>> No.28884222

>>28884200

More spiders than you can shake a sword at.

>> No.28884252

>>28884220
I guess? Go check if out if you care.

>> No.28884337

>>28880894

>> No.28884560

>> No.28884814

>>28884200
>>28884222
>>28884560
Fuck spiders, especially giant, eldritch monstergod spiders.

>> No.28884947

>>28880009
I don't give a fuck how many legs Smaug has. And I even like how ol' PeeJay is incorporating extra information about Hobbit shit from appendices etc. I can even overlook his special snowflake characters.

But the thing that really pisses me off about the Hobbit movies is how all of the dialogue between Bilbo and fantastical enemies like Smaug and Gollum are being paraphrased and diminished. I find them the best part of the book and it's reduced Gollum to a cameo and Smaug to a gimmick.

>> No.28885237

>>28881194
Can you imagine if LOTR was treated like Star Wars? A series of novels about every shitty human town near the shire, every character has a backstory, a hexen-like FPS series where you play as an easterner... it would 90% be crap, but honestly, I'd like to see what would happen.

>> No.28885877

>>28885237
There's some evidence that Tolkien did intend it to be more open to, although it'd probably be more like the Cthulhu mythos than Star Wars.

>> No.28885905

>>28885877
I imagine so, because of the time period and general approach to writing people had.

>> No.28886024

>>28885877
Too bad his estate wants to milk it for everything it's worth.

How long until copyright runs out?

>> No.28886352

Rolled 77

>>28880702

Smaug was the second most powerful dragon after Glaurung.

>> No.28886511

>>28886352
Says who?

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