/tg/ - Traditional Games

>>28537585
>Picture of Ultramarine
>Implying they don't say its over 9000 warriors

>>28537585
Well yeah, in 40k being outnumber isn't actually a plus most of the time. The same can't be said about DBZ

>>28537585
No. But force multipliers do; and a basic trooper who can shrug off all your small and medium arms fire is a force multiplier. But I do agree with you OP.

>>28537585
>40k takes war seriously

>>28537585
>Wars aren't fought like DBZ, power levels don't fucking apply.

implying that having a more powerful gun/missile/tank/bomb/power armor is not an increase in power level like DBZ

implying that prior to firearms, melee aspect of wars aren't dependent on the individual's power level

"These warriors are worth a thousand lesser warriors" is a saying and not meant to be taken literally, you fucking muppet.

>>28538830
>"These warriors are worth a thousand lesser warriors" is a saying and not meant to be taken literally, you fucking muppet.
This, if you actually look at the fluff, they're worth more like 500 lesser warriors.

>>28538859

Unnamed "line grunt" Space Marines, in fluff, are worth 10 boyz, or 20 Guardsmen. Specialized units, especially if used as the focus of a plot sequence, can be worth as much as ten grunts. Named characters are only plot-killable; Chapter Master Rapeulon will never go down to stray bolter fire.

>>28538859
Even if they were worth a 1,000, that's only about a billion guardsmen. Which to the Imperium is a fucking rounding error.
>Scaling ruins fiction once again!

>>28538999
ah, but when you consider that 40k has no idea what scale is, and 14 million dead guardsmen is considered heavy losses for a major Imperial Campaign, you realize how powerful a billion guardsmen is.
Therefore a chapter of space marines can win about 8 major campaigns on their own.

>>28539052
Oh wait, that estimate of 8 major campaigns is off, since that would mean a chapter is worth 100 million guardsmen instead of a billion.
8 is what a company could win.

>>28537585
Fluff for every unit in 40k:

These things are the ultimate badasses. They are worth 1000 of any other 40k unit, and 10000 of any other settings units. You should spend your whole allowance on them, it will make you so much cooler than all the other kids at school.

>>28538999
In straight-up combat, a Space Marine is probably "worth" several hundred, if not thousands, of grunt guardsmen.

As a fighting force, deployed strategically, the relative value of a Space Marine Chapter compared to that of a run-of-the-mill Regiment is insurmountable.

>>28538999

I really like the increase in Warhammer 40k novels where Space Marines get destroyed by things like 1) overrun by enemy air support 2) obliterated by enemy artillery 3) overwhelming weight of fire.

It makes me feel warm and snuggly inside to see superhuman warrior monks in power armor, decked to the gills in grills and relics, each one a hero a thousand times over, get destroyed by a good fire mission.

It also really helps re-emphasize the purpose of Space Marines. Shock troops, special operations, hero-shit but leave the hard slogging, trench-fucking, foxhole digging to the real men.

>>28539096
>shouting while holding a badger

That man is looking forward to many months of facial reconstruction surgery.

>>28539096
>It also really helps re-emphasize the purpose of Space Marines. Shock troops, special operations, hero-shit but leave the hard slogging, trench-fucking, foxhole digging to the real men.

This.

>>28539096

Thad Castle is...Cato Sicarius? It makes so much sense!

>>28537585
Space marines were originally imagined as spaceship boarders. But later they decided to switch over from "zany 80s pulp" to "halo-esque space opera" presumably because it sold more models.

>>28537585

these NIggas aint shit, i took out a squad of terminators with just 8 boyz and a Warboss armed with a twin linked shoota and a big choppa

>>28537585
>Wars aren't fought like DBZ

It depends on what you consider to be a "war" retard.However, NEVER is a SM considered to be worth 1000 soldiers.AT BEST they're 100. If it were 1000 then maybe 40k fiction would rise above being mediocre.

>>28539096
but they were exactly this during the great crusade, world conquers not just shock troops. sounds like someone is really tired of fan-wanking people who describe each individual marine as unbeatable warriors capable of defeating any foe single handedly

>>28540074

Right but the difference is that during the Great Crusade there were a lot of Space Marines and even then the Space Marines had a greater number of Imperial Army units attached to them to secure beachheads and territory that the Marines cleared first.

After the Heresy and Guilliman's reforms the Space Marines became even more specialized and started to take on more heroic proportions because there were 1) so few of them and 2) operating with less resources than their predecessors.

>>28540074
during the great crusade, there were a ton of fucking marines.

when there are a ton of them, they're pretty good at frontal assault.

You're quite right Your average Marine's worth a thousand normal soldiers. Your normal ULTRAMARINE, well, he's worth a thousand other Space Marines.

>>28540337
>>28540268
I thought there was a lot more marines now than before in the great crusade. given they had 10k years to recover loses and forge new chapters.

>>28540376
nope. they're not exactly rolling off the assembly lines these days. there were more in the great crusade, count on it.

that and they were far more unified, so you could go "luna wolves, pls kill planet"

and the luna wolves would show up with 10000 guys and kill the planet.

now they're all split up, so not many mehreen planet assaults.

>>28539096
>hard slogging, trench-fucking, foxhole digging
Yeah, Marines are just terrible at that.

>>28540401
Just terrible.

>>28540395
>>28540376

I don't recall if any solid numbers were ever given for the Legions but wasn't it something like a hundred thousand Astartes per legion? "

In my head-canon I like to imagine that each legion had about a million Astartes each, plus or minus for the Legion's that were known to be especially populated or depopulated.

>>28540401

One of two Legions whose whole schtick was an unhealthy obsession with siege warfare. Not to mention that the Imperial Fists are noted experts at raising and defending fortifications as well an ancillary security measures (like in Imperium Secundus where an Imperial Fist officer is brought in to improve Ultramar's defenses and he suggests stuff like gene-scanning) which is world's apart from Guardsmen who are digging up and dying in trenches because they have to, not because when the Emperor was holding a lottery for special powers they chose "being extra good at like, defending and stuff" as a superpower.

>>28537585
>power levels don't fucking apply
>world with space wizards
>world with angels of wrath
>world with daemons
>work where green fungus has their entire society based on who is strongest

In 40k power levels do fucking apply. Someone like Daigo can single handedly turn the tide of a planet wide conflict. Some of the more powerful beings can destroy entire star systems.

>>28540401
>>28540424
It is kinda of an inefficient use of everything that goes into a space marine though.
>Here's some power armor!
>That'll do fuck all against the massive artillery shells raining down on you!
>Here's some superhuman reflexes and strength!
>That'll do fuck all when the enemy is over there, past 3 miles of no man's land, shelling you!

>>28540476
Even the fucking Raven Guard have to do sieges sometimes, you know.

>>28540488

>Battle-Brothers, we move to secure these fortifications!

Uh Sarge no offense but why?

>For we are the Son's of Dorn! No Astartes can match our heritage and reputation for dauntless defense!

Right ok, I get that. But the whole reason we're here is to kill the enemy arch-heretic right? So why don't we just teleport in or jump off the Thunderhawks and take them out? There are like a dozen Guard regiments here, let them man the trenches.

>Guardsmen? Inform naval command that those unidentified objects are my sides leaving orbit! To stand firm in the sternguard is the holy duty of an Imperial Fist!

Ok well are we going to set up counter artillery or secure air support first?

>Nay! We stand firm in the dirt and rain."

Ok so you want us to stand immobile, negating our advantage of mobility. You want us to hold a trench and take enemy artillery fire negating our advantage of armor, and you want to subject us to trench warfare, one of the costliest forms of warfare, when there's only a thousand of us?

>Aye! Now you get it Brother.

Fuck this I'm joining the Black Templars

>>28540541

Yes and?

>>28540592
>Ok well are we going to set up counter artillery or secure air support first?
But they do that? The Fists are famous for artillery.

>>28540596
You're claiming they don't have to.

>>28540604

Always thought that was the Iron Warriors thing, with their basilisks and all (do they still get those?).

>>28540620
>Always thought that was the Iron Warriors thing, with their basilisks and all (do they still get those?).
No they don't. But the Fists use Whirlwinds.
Does it surprise you that there are parallels between the Fists and the Evil Fists?

>>28540424
Oh look, a huge structure above the surface of the ground and a perfect target for bombing missions and artillery fire. It's lascannon defenses will do great against the basilisk formation hidden behind rocks or trees, or really save it against the Tigershark AX-1-0 formation swooping out of the sky.

Space marines suck balls at sieges unless fighting against other space marines.

>>28540640
>blah blah blah I'm a huge faggot
You can say that about literally any fortress in 40k.

>>28537585
Were there more or less space marines during the Horus Heresy than in M40?

>>28540640
oh look, any fucking thing. what a perfect target for another fucking thing it's FUCKING THING defenses will do great against ANY OTHER FUCKING THING IN THE GAME

OH SHIT EVERYTHING IS USELESS TIME TO GO HOME

>>28540666
Sounds about right. I heard video games are cool this time of year.

>>28540611

False equivalency. The Raven Guard having to besiege something means a failure of their modus operandi.

The Guard do it because that's all they can do. With the exceptions of Stormtroopers and rare Guard regiments (such as the Tanith Ghosts [and even then half their stories are about fighting in sieges and trenches]) most Guard regiments have to fight in the sort of mass combat because they have to. They don't have the options that Space Marines do to wage warfare in anything other than the clash of thousands of soldiers and tanks.

If a Space Marine chapter is in a trench it's because something went wrong or because they have some sort of fetish for it (i.e. IF or IW).

>>28540660

afaik, more

and they were more centralized too. you didn't have to gather 15 chapters to assault a dug in planet. just one or two.

that and you weren't constantly on the defensive, so there were tons more mehreen planet assaults

>>28540486
Does the name Audie Murphy ring any bells? Individuals can always make a difference in a warzone, it's just that you really shouldn't rely on that, in 40k, they will totally rely on that one guy.

>>28540690
>The Raven Guard having to besiege something means a failure of their modus operandi.
Who said they're doing the besieging again?

>>28540660
M40
~1,000 chapters of ~1,000 marines = ~1,000,000 marines

Great Crusade/beginning of Horus Heresy:
250,000 Ultramarines + 170,000 Sons of Horus + 150,000 World Eaters + 150,000 Word Bearers + 120,000 Blood Angels + 120,000 Night Lords + 113,000 Iron Hands + 110,000 Emperor's Children + 100,000 Imperial Fists + 95,000 Death Guard + 89,000 Salamanders + 80,000 Raven Guard + 10,000 Thousand Sons = ~1,557,000 marines

Same order of magnitude, but there were more during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy

>>28540685
pointing out that fortresses are pointless is itself pointless. you might as well say that swords are useless in future warfare

this is 40k and sense is often not made, deal w/ it


btw, i like video games

some of them

you got a problem punk

>>28537585
You're the one bringing up power levels, weeaboo.
>>shamefur

tbh the thing that bothers me the most is that each codex Chapter only has 1000 marines wih non-codex having no more than roughly 10,000
like that is including marines that man vehicles, ships and other support roles as well as scouts who aren't full marines. like there is no fucking way that makes any fucking sense. like all the fluff still talks about them taking casualties all the time and if ten marines become that's 1% of the whole chapter it just can't fucking work

>>28540666
Different things are more vulnerable than other things. There's a reason land battleships never caught on, despite regular tanks still being vulnerable to air strike.

>>28540723
You don't really enjoy them, you're just mistaken.

>>28540722
*note that I only listed the legions that we know the canon numbers of, so the actual number is closer to two million

>>28540734
>no more than roughly 10,000
Templars have like 6000 tops.

>>28540738
anon confirms that fun things are not actually fun.jpg

>>28540711

You said that the Ravenguard have to "do sieges" which is a pretty ambiguous term.

Either way defending or attacking in a siege environment is antithetical to the Raven Guard's style of hit and run attacks, covert operations, and maneuver warfare.

I might add that you would have had a better argument by specifying that the Raven Guard were doing the besieging in this hypothetical scenario as plenty of sieges have been broken through the attackers sneakiness.

Anyway go troll somewhere else
4/10 got me to respond in depth

>>28539073
Aw jealous anon is jealous. Can you not afford your plastic toys?

Guess they should say:

"This unit blows. Whatever. We're not a company with employees to pay and investors to pay back."

Whiny twat.

>>28540735
land battleships never caught on because physics fucks them over way more than enemy fire.

in the future, space magic fucks physics over harder than physics fucks over land battleships.

ergo, land battleships are a thing. superheavy tanks and titans, for instance.

>>28539096
Right. It takes real men to die in droves.

>>28537585
I don't really find the whole 'worth 1000 lesser warriors' thing that bad. It's the whole "So many lesser warriors that the planet tilts 30 degrees to the left just from the first wave and what the fuck is logistics" thing that gets me.

>>28540774
>If I disagree with you you're trolling
Ever realize how much of a faggot this makes you look like?

>>28540787
I'm just saying man. It stands to reason that some shit is gonna be more vulnerable by virtue of size.

>>28538945
>Unnamed "line grunt" Space Marines, in fluff, are worth 10 boyz, or 20 Guardsmen.
Yeah, maybe in a straight up shooty fight, but the whole point is that mehrens have not only the equipment and physical improvements over a normal human, but are also able to out-jinyas their opponents and kill many more.
At the same time, though, a bunch of guardsmen could probably set up an ambush and kill a marine without taking any casualties.

>>28540809

If you're coming up with poor arguments and responding with short insults with an intent to provoke maximum over rustle then yes, you're a troll.

Forgive me for feeding.

>>28540835
You're the one getting huttburt over the Raven Guard having to do sieges.
Note the HAVING TO part here. As in, they don't have a choice.

>>28540853
>Note the HAVING TO part
>HAVING TO

>>28540774
>The Raven Guard having to besiege something means a failure of their modus operandi
>having to

Your point was directly addressed, if the Raven Guard have to engage in a siege it represents a failure of their MO. If the Imperial Guard have to engage in a siege it's because they are the Imperial Guard, have to doesn't really figure into it.

>>28540930
Except not even close to all the Guard's engagements are sieges. At all.

The Imperial Guard is the space equivalent of World War 1 armies: extremely out dated tactics mixed with extremely deadly weaponry that results in mass carnage on an unimaginable scale. Space Marines are the space equivalent of the modern day Marine Corps: few in number, lacking in artillery, equipment that is three times older than the user, and speaking in a slew of jargon that's so unintelligible to an outside observer that it might as well be its own language.

>>28540952

Right. The Imperial Guard does mass engagements. City fighting, pitched battle, tank warfare. The Imperial Guard does massed, conventional warfare.

If that means sieges, or trench fighting, or block by block clearing that's what they do. The Space Marines do the cool shit. They take out warlords, capture the enemies flagship, go toe-to-toe with the enemies monsters and nightmares made flesh.

Some Guards units do engage in less conventional warfare but these units are 1) the exception to the norm and 2) inferior to the Space Marines anyway.

Again, I don't really see the points you're trying to make.

>>28540985
But your argument falls apart because unlike Marines, Space Marines are intelligent

>>28540952
But all of the Guards engagements are FUCKING HUGE, siege or not. What he's trying to say is that you don't send Seal Team 6 to take Omaha Beach.

>>28541013
>>28541022
I see what you're saying, except the Marines do that anyway. All the time. Because fuck logistics.

I'm a bit shocked that you believe a force that believes coloring armor meant for combat in bright pastels is intelligent.

>>28541059
If you are less concerned about Stealth and more concerned about being a symbol, why not be brightly colored?

>>28541059
Camouflage is the colour of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colours I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, "I am proud to live - I am proud to die".

>>28541038
The only time Marines go into those kinds of engangements is when A: They are supported by several Guard divisions, or B: HOLY FUCK NOT AS PLANNED OH GOD WHY IS THIS HAPPENING REINFORCEMENTS PLZ OH FUCK OH FUCK I DON'T EVEN THINK THIS IS THE RIGHT PLANET

>>28541038
>logistics

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.gif

>>28541094
Because if I was less concerned about stealth and more concerned about being a symbol, I would make a terrible soldier.

>>28541109
White Panthers did it.
On purpose.
By themselves.
And won. In fact, they utterly destroyed the world's military.

>>28541122
>stealth
>while wearing power armor that by all accounts gives off a whine that sets your teeth on edge
lol no
Only Raven Guard and their successors get silent power armor and they're not sharing.

>>28541122
In the real world, yes you would.

But in space fantasy where Extra Strength Cpt Americas wearing small tanks for armor fight giant half-fungus/half-semi-truck over the control of a Death World, it works just fine

>>28539096

>tfw playing space marine chaos exterminatus
>tfw whooping all the SM's asses
>tfw going down in a hail of concentrated lasfire from the goddamn IG

It feels a lot more believable, to tell the truth

>>28541109
>HOLY FUCK NOT AS PLANNED OH GOD WHY IS THIS HAPPENING REINFORCEMENTS PLZ OH FUCK OH FUCK I DON'T EVEN THINK THIS IS THE RIGHT PLANET
Speaking of all this, I really would like to see what a total chapter wipe would look like. Not a noble sacrifice, mind you, something different.
When a force of marines is confronted by a foe so big and strong that they're getting killed in IG-style droves, and hardly making a scratch.

What does Space Marine panic look like?

>>28541157
What a bunch of dicks.

>>28541195

According to the Lamentors: OH EMPEROR, NOT AGAIN!

>>28541196
Welcome to the Imperium.

>>28541195
>When a force of marines is confronted by a foe so big and strong that they're getting killed in IG-style droves, and hardly making a scratch.
They don't panic, they decide to die in a glorious last stand.
This shows up a million times in fluff. You retarded?

>>28541195
The only total chapter-wipe that I know about were the Fire Hawks, and they got taken out because warp travel is brutal.

Although they might not count because they may or may not be ghosts.

>>28541137
What insufferable wank. Why do people like this juvenile bullshit again?

>>28541195
Take a look at that famous picture of the Crimson Fists fighting back to back in a big pile. That's that Space Marine "panic" looks like. They lost that battle. Badly.

I read a quote that one marine is worth ten dudes, a squad of marines in worth a hundreds manz and a company is worth a thousand, implying that a chapter is worth around 10,000 guardsmen in a straight up pitched battle. So they are really wasted that way.

That said they specifically aren't meant to be a viable force in their own right. They are meant to cooperate with the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy in order to fight large scale conflicts, forcing them to operate within the Imperial command structure. Of course GW authors often forget this.

>>28541251
Because some people enjoy fun.

>>28541220
But that's above and beyond the average standard issue Imperium dickery. I mean, that would be like if the Emperor decided to punish Magnus for giving him a heads up about Hor... oh wait...

>>28541270
>They are meant to cooperate with the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy in order to fight large scale conflicts, forcing them to operate within the Imperial command structure.
They're not even close to part of the Imperial command structure you faggot.

>>28541157
>Only Raven Guard and their successors get silent power armor and they're not sharing.

Wait, is that canon? I mean chaos has figured out how to do it, can't be that hard. Hell they even infiltrate land raiders now.

>>28541195

Yeah I want to see some fluff about an entire Chapter going out with a whimper as opposed to a bang.

A thousand Space Marines gather on a hill to make their glorious last stand (after last minute makeup and airbrushing sessions so that they look good for the Codex cover). Flags waving in the air, a chorus of angels singing in bittersweet symph-

>Target co-ordinates received. Commence orbital bombardment.

>>28541285
That's your complaint? The Dark Angels are implied to have a jetbike STC which they refuse to share! A JETBIKE STC!

>>28537585
It's more grating when they drive home the point that everyone but spehss muhreens are literally worthless.
>>overrun IG retreating
>> ultrasmurfs show up, force IG into suicidal last stand
>> ultrasmurfs retreat as soon as IG is wiped out
Seriously, what a bunch of assholes.

>>28541304
dropzonemassacre.gif

>>28541295
It's canon. Shows up in various sources. Raven Guard have special power armor that both masks the heat given off by normal power armor and operates silently. Only them and their successors get it because fuck everyone else.

>>28541316
Such is the life of a guardsmen.

Good thing there are 10,000 guardsmen for every SM

>>28540337
>>28540074
Also, war machines, Space Marines during the Great Crusade rolled around in Land Raiders as standard, had fucking Baneblades (yeah, Fellblades, whatev) as Armor support. etc

>>28541293

They are independent forces, but they are not allowed to maintain their own dedicated navies (besides transport and planetary attack vessels) or human armies (besides serfs for defence), which means that they have to cooperate with the authorities whenever an opponent is too big for them to handle.

>>28541304
The ones that got corrupted in the Abyssal Crusade actually tended to go out like bitches.

>>28541316
grimdark and even commanders use men like that at times

>>28541313
i think it's too fragile to take apart, not that this stops the master of ravenwing from using a plasma cannon on it or perform sick nasty jet bike tricks

>>28541333
raven guard confirmed for dicks i suppose

>>28541313
... I want a Jetbike...

>>28541356
>whenever an opponent is too big for them to handle
Which is never.

>>28541363
>i think it's too fragile to take apart
Dude, the 6e codex notes that their SUCCESSORS tend to have one dude on a jetbike and they mysteriously seem to be able to replace the jetbike whenever it's destroyed beyond hope of repair! They can make jetbikes! They're just a pack of assholes so they won't share!

>>28541359

The Abyssal Crusade? I'm not familiar with this fluff :(

>>28541229
Not quite.
>>28541304
This guy knows what I'm talking about.
Pic related, kind of what brought this up.

>>28541304
you know what I would like to see, the tau get wiped out with out so much as anyone giving a fuck by a hive fleet.
every single useless tau all gathered in their pathetic corner of the galaxy look onward to their inevitable doom knowing full well that can't even make a scratch on the hive fleet.

>>28541372
>nids.png

>>28541372

Which is plenty of the time actually. The Ultramarines wouldn't have won at Macragge without the Imperial Navy. All the Space Marines of Armageddon wouldn't have beaten the Orks without titans and Imperial Guard. The Eye of Terror is held by the Imperial Guard for the most part.

>>28541401
>Ultramarines winning.png

>>28540488
just because something is only useful 90% of the time doesn't make it a waste.

>>28540722

>10k Thousand Sons

Seriously? That was it?

>>28541395
The Boys is like the definition of edgy and tryhard.

>>28540074
Kind of makes me wish we were playing 30k instead. The Great Crusade-Horus Heresy shit was full blown awesome sauce.

>>28541392
Read the 6e CSM book. Such glorious defeats as a chapter getting swallowed by a Slaaneshi daemon world which took the shape of a morbidly obese man, and they later popped out as the cannibalistic Slaaneshi warband the Corpus Brethren.

>>28541401
Behemoth was too big for everyone to handle, until a freak accident won the battle in space. And the ultramarines came out relatively unscathed for taking the brunt of the fighting. They also went on to dickpunch Kraken and not become a ghost of their former selves like Iyanden

>>28541423
if i remember correctly there was a gene flaw that made it hard to create new, fully functioning astarte. kind of like the raven guard

>>28541449
>Slaaneshi daemon world which took the shape of a morbidly obese man

A Slaaneshi Daemon world that took the shape of morbidly obese man, mind you.

>>28540074

Those 100,000 strong legions were followed around by huge space fleets, titans and millions of Imperial Army soldiers.

>>28541467
That's what I just said?

>>28541313

Blood Angels have an STC for an engine that makes vehicles go faster which they refuse to share with the Adeptus Mechanicus.

>>28541389
>missing the part where i said the guy on the bike uses a plasma weapon and pulls off tricks in the air

>>28541423
>>28541458
they're called the 1k sons for a reason anon, they were the smallest legion due to the flesh changes killing the legion

>>28541397
naw, their plot armor is too strong to get wiped easily

>>28541392
6th chaos book. some possessed church official sent 20 chapters into the eye of terror to fight. most turned traitor or were wiped out

>>28541474
All in all, Space Marines are fucking assholes.
>>28541483
Missing the part where that bike has exploded like 200 times and they pull another one out of thin air.

>>28541491

Not really, the AM would take said STC and not share it with anyone for at least a 1000 years.

>>28541474
I thought that was just because of the red paint

>>28541516
Yeah, much better for the BAs to not share it with anyone for eternity.

>>28541094

>Raven Guard
>Very concerned about stealth
>Go in wearing pitch black

Even the ones that rely on stealth don't seem to know a thing about it.

>>28541491
>Missing the part where that bike has exploded like 200 times and they pull another one out of thin air.
sounds like some kinda heresy, someone might wanna investigate them or something for secrets.

>>28541524
>blood angels are really orks

>>28541195

That happened to the Lamenters, actually.
Or so near to it that their chapter is doomed to extinction.

>>28541540
WHAT SECRETS? THERE ARE NO SECRETS! WHO TOLD YOU? YOU HEARD NOTHING! YOU HEAR ME? NOTHING!

>>28541534

They're likely to share it with Chapters who don't have close ties with the Mechanicus.

>>28541573

God-Emperor on his Throne what the hell is wrong with that BA's helmet

>>28541363
'Use' is the key word. There's literally no point to forcing people into a last stand when their lives could be better spent elsewhere. That's even worse than the typical muh grimdark shit. That's all, if you're not a special snowflake, you don't even get to die for a reason, you just die because you failed to die for a reason.

>>28541606
He left it in the sun on a dashboard. It melted.

>>28541565
Oh but brother I'm sure the other loyal space marines and such would love to know about 'Taco Tuesdays and secret discussion time".

>>28541613
I got one worse; clerical errors like in 15 hours. Sending fresh recruits with only basic training into a warzone with orks and low survival rate with only a tiny 'sorry' as an apology.

>>28541458

No wonder the Bludd Rahvens are always going on about their precious geneseed.

>>28541474

They just took up the Ork tradition of painting everything red.

With blood.

Dun dun dunnnnnn.
Banter aside, every SM chapter that has an edge over the other chapters is going to keep it. This only makes sense when you think about how the Legions were split into chapters.

Now, if a chapter defects, they are not only smaller than a legion, they can also be countered more easily by any technology you've kept secret.

>>28537585

Marines are never usually considered that way though. Imperial Guard is what wins wars by holding the line while SM get sent in as shock troops to reinforce key points. So there is a logic there most of the time.

It's only with Primarchs and Phoenix Lords type doods that you'll have one dude fighting entire armies. Which honestly is what 40k should be about. Unapologetic and awesomely stupid shit, not tedious military realism.

>>28542510
>It's only with Primarchs and Phoenix Lords type doods that you'll have one dude fighting entire armies.

And spiritual lieges.

Incredibly grating.

Seeing how if a dozen Space Marine Chapters landed on Earth today they'd be all fucking dead within a month

>>28540476
>In my head-canon

Please stop.

>>28540985
Imperial guard isn't a homogenous group and should be roughly compared to any standard army of today. US marines would merely be an Imperial Guard regiment excelling in planet invasions or something.

Space Marines are your special forces equivalent. They usually conduct high-risk missions the Imperial guard simply wouldn't bother even considering as feasible. They take out command centres, leaders, high value targets, that sorta thing.

>>28542548
Their bones can stop small fire arms, imperial guard flak jackets can repel 50 cal, space marine armour probably doesn't even get scratched by modern 50 cals. I would expect even modern explosives do little to it. They can move for weeks without sleep, run comfortably at 30mph, tear apart tanks with their hands. Their basic weakest weapon is a rapid fire rocket launcher... and 12000 of them just landed on planet

>>28542530
y'know

when that model came out I was pretty impressed

but I've been spoiled by newer models and forgeworld. I really have.

>>28537585
>DBZ invented the concept of individuals who are said to be worth multiple individuals, or possess the skill of multiple individuals
40k really does cause brain cancer.

>>28537585

Well it can be true in a way.

Highly skilled and well equipped soldiers inserted in the right spot at the right time can have vastly disproportionate effects.

I have no problems accepting that.

It is when they try to portray them as standing up to a thousand men in a slugfest it gets silly.


Sadly there is more of the latter portrayals than the former in 40K.

>>28537585
How many Space Marines is a Primarch worth?

>>28542567

No u

>>28537585

A modern well equipped technologically advanced soldier would be worth I imagine dozens if not hundreds of medieval archers

>>28542609
Hundreds.

>>28542609
Depends on the primarch.
10-20 could be enough to take down Guilliman.
I can't even guess how many you should throw at Angron.

>>28542621

Eh, I'm not sure how arrow proof kevlar is. Maybe with the steel inserts we'd be getting somewhere.

I'm imagining you going back in time and throwing in a very surprised US marine into a regiment of British longbow archers. Assuming clear line of sight, low to no wind the Marine would kick ass until he ran out of ammo, then he'd be a reasonably fit soldier wearing far more than the knights ever did and to top it off his overwhelmingly heavy armor won't stop a knife, let alone a sword.

So yeah, I could see the average soldier of today being worth a hundred medieval archers if he had 1) clear lanes of fire and 2) every shot was a kill shot and 3) he had a hundred rounds on him.

>>28541423
I always thought the furious Ahriman deciding to lead his hopelessly outnumbered brothers in their suicidal last stand was one of the coolest fluff moments.

There's something very romantic about a calm, calculating type choosing to put his foot down and go down fighting instead of accepting his fate or trying to wriggle out of it until his last moments.

>>28542582

>Imperial guard flak jackets can repel 50 cal

lol

>>28542548

2013-era Earth is nothing special. Think of the entire combined Earth military as a rather well-populated and well-trained PDF supplemented by a bunch of Guard veterans. We also happen to have a sizeable Navy contingent of fighters.

Unfortunately fluff wise, that will do nothing to stop an Astartes strikeforce from terminally taking out command centres, targets of value ecetera

and we have 12000 marines attacking us.

12000 marines operating 24/7 with inhuman tempo, using Thunderhawks, orbital drops, teleportation ecetera. A single combat squad would probably wipe out the White House easily. It's just the equivalent of a Governor's palace after all.

>>28542548
even a single company would devastate earth if they chose too.
Nothing we have short of proper anti-tank weapons are reliably going to get through the PA.
Beyond that these are the best of the best with decades, often centuries of experience. We'll be out gunned, out armoured and out manoeuvred.

And that's totally ignoring the fact they'll have come from space meaning they have at least one Imperial ship. We're completely impotent against even the smallest Imperial warship.

>>28542646
from the heresy novels, it seemed like Primarchs were simply on another level.

They were killing through dozens if not hundreds of enemy Astartes at Istvaan.

>>28542662

Fluff wise a company would bring the world to heel in a afternoon...

in reality?

>>28542670
Yeah, now read Unremembered Empire.
10 marines ambushing Guilliman.
One Ultramarine challenging Kurze for several minutes.
10 Wolves managing to wound Kurze twice.

>>28542577
In all likely hood the IG would be generally better most modern armies. An IG regiment is drawn from the elite of a planets PDF, meaning the IG is mostly made up of the equivlents of the Rangers or the SAS and so on.

Also they'd have a much broader training, having to be able to fight aliens on all sorts of alien battlefields instead of just humans vs humans on earth.

The problem fucking is... novel fanfiction schlock and tabletop prowess

In books "The three Space Marines killed a thousand Orks"

On the table top "The 10 slugga boyz, killed 7 Tactical Marines"

In the books "One Iron Snake Marine is dispense to quell and shit slap a Dark Eldar warband"

On the Table Top "One Dark Eldar cleaves through five Space Marines"

It's hard to separate sometimes.

>>28542671
>in reality?
probably the same, assuming their gear functions as it should ad we're not going hyper-realistic and only real technology works.

>>28542687

that would require me to read more Heresy books which I out and out refuse to do before the Heresy fleet enters the Sol system.

>>28542699
Oh yeah.
I'm yeat to see an incubi capable of something in a BL novel while they are so devastating in cc on the table.

>>28542671
I have a feeling bringing a world to hell involves a few things/goal post moving

>the propaganda value of rebels actually realizing Astartes were deployed to crush them. That's like Delta and SEALS crashing an OWS thing.

>extensive planning and intelligence gathering beforehand, so space marines know exactly which cult leaders to kill, which supply depots to blow up ecetera for max damage, so in the few hours of an afternoon, the enemy gets raped the hardest the laws of physics will allow

>it may also mean rendering the resistance broken and ready for Imperial Guard occupation

>>28542695
well I was more talking roles wise but yes, you have a point.

>>28542609

That is one of the interesting things about the HH books.

All the Primarchs have been rather unimpressive, most of them are low level superheroes, some of them (usually the psykers) are inching toward mid level superheroes.

>>28542774
> All the Primarchs have been rather unimpressive
Or pants-on-the-head retarded like the certain titan-lifter.

>>28542786

Everyone have been idiots.

Particularly Horus.

>>28542661
They genuinely can, hence why they can sometimes (if rarely) survive las guns which can punch foot holes in concrete, they are incredible weapons and armour, but shit in comparison to everything else in universe

>>28542798

>Lasguns
>Punch foot holes

I think you're confusing lascannons with lasguns
They can survive lasgun shot, yes. I sincerely doubt they can survive lascannon blasts.

Also

>implying energy weapons have the same sort of concussion damage as projectile weapons

>>28542852
The problem is people compare everything in 40k to modern day stuff, without remembering its 40k years in the future and in the novels they even state what the flak jackets can repel and how advanced everything else, its just comparatively

>>28542852
flak armour is designed to protect against energy and kinetic weapons.

But I think his main point was that the heavy stubber (S4 AP6 on TT) is essentially a space BMG .50cal, something Flak armour is effective against in fluff and on TT.

>>28542870

People also forget that a setting being 40k years into the future or a trillion billion years into the future or a hundred years in the past means nothing in regard to how good that tech is.

Marvel earth for example had artificial life, intergalactic FTL and reliable FTL in the sixties.

>>28541651
>with only a tiny 'sorry' as an apology.
When did they ever get an apology, hell he died from a grot sniper 15 hours and 5 minutes after his company got wiped out, who would they send the apology to?

>>28542795

I find the worst thing is how we're told in the lore how inspiring and awesome the Primachs are meant to be, but they're nothing more than whiney children. Reminds me of those two kids in Terminator 2 with toy guns.

"I got you"
"No you didn't"
"Yes I did"

Not a single one has inspired me

>>28540476
So space marines are better than their lessers because they're better?

Makes sense.

>>28538755
implying that prior to firearms, melee aspect of wars aren't dependent on the individual's power level

No, it depended on the formation power level.

>>28542929

I agree there, everyone on the top have been bad, from the emperor who must have been mentally handicapped not to pick up on the mistakes that he and his custom built children continually make and the Primarchs that basically all are stupid asshole teenagers.

Malcador works pretty well simply because he is more passive and is more used as a exposition device and therefore simply dont have the ability to aggressively make moronic mistakes.

>>28542870

While I can suspend disbelief and come to terms with the idea that their flak armor can withstand stubbers or even bolter rounds,I have a much harder time to accept the idea that the human body wearing said armor will still be walking after the impact.

>>28542957
Bolters laugh at flak armor, as I recall. The guardsman's only real hope is that the round hits somewhere not-fatal.

>>28542957
Bolters I believe are the equivalent of 100 cal explosive rounds. The damn slugs are the size of soda cans

>>28537585
What does
>these warriors are worth a 1000 less warriors
even mean to you?

That 1 space marine can take on 1000 guardsmen in CC? That 1 space marine costs 1000 guardsmen in imperial thrones? That 1 space marine can do a task which would take 1000 guardsmen?

That line is barely definitive, it leaves so much to your imagination. Also, the foundations of 40k are embellishment and exaggeration, it's like you haven't even read the standard imperial fluff opening.

>>28542998
.75cal actually. But they're rocket assisted so they'd hit harder than you'd expect of similar calibre rounds.

>>28543015

So bolters pretty much spew rocket propelled grenades?

>>28542662
The white house is not the equivalent of a planetary governor's palace. It's guarded by a handful of guys in suits with pistols, rather than being a fortress covered in flak guns and thousands of soldiers in armour and with rifles.

>>28543020

Bolters spew large explosive bullets.

The only extraordinary thing about them is that they magically are able to explode at the correct time whether they are shot at unarmored cannon fodder, heavy power armored infantry, light armored vehicles or chocolate pudding.

>>28543020
pretty much yeah, though its a HE AP round designed to go off inside the target rather than on impact.

>>28543049
it wouldn't be that hard to do it, just a delayed fuse that goes off a millisecond or two after impact and you'll get your internal explosion.

>>28543049

Also Depleted Deterium, because that shit is hilarious.

>>28543064

It is pretty hard to do actually since that fuse would have to analyze just what it was shot at before it could calculate when to detonate.

And hey, i am all for there being exotic bolter rounds that could do that, but ordinary bolter rounds sure as hell dont have any of that stuff.

A single Space Marine will get taken out by around twenty to thirty guardsmen, although they'd lose at least a third of their soldiers in the process. A Space Marine can get overwhelmed, like any soldier.

A squad of Space Marines in the right position is capable of withstanding almost anything thrown at them, at least according to the fluff. Whether it's entrenching at a specific location, storming the enemy headquarters or even just fighting on the front line.

>>28543065
Maybe they've discovered some characteristics of depleted deuterium that has military applications several thousand years down the line. Oh who am I kidding? We all know 40k is retarded.

>>28543065
That one still bugs me.

>>28543085
>analyze just what it was shot at before it could calculate when to detonate.

No it wouldn't, just a simple timer on say a 2 millisecond delay would do it. If you've hit something soft enough to penetrate you'll be inside it at that point, the ideal time to explode. If you've hit something too hard too pen you'll probably still be squashed on the outside, exploding then while not ideal can still be useful.

>>28543049
a chip could be programed to indicate the bullet the density of the material

>>28543085
You do know that not only is it possible, it actually exists now, don't you? That delayed detonation mechanism which knows when to blow up at the right time. Right time being whatever the engineers deemed to be right.

>>28543111

The time a bullet takes to penetrate material depends on just what it is shot at. A bullet hitting flesh would have exited the body before a bullet hitting armor would have fully penetrated.

>>28543140
There''s probably a relationship between target density and bullet momentum loss that you could use too have a delayed timer with an analogue "processor"

>>28543121

Yes i know that delayed detonation fuses exist, i also know that they are set to a specific time, which is well and good when you want to penetrate a certain amount of armor before exploding.

The problem with the bolters is that they always explode after they have penetrated despite being fired at a dozen targets with different degrees of durability and armoring.

>>28543165
perhaps have the fuse trigger on the base of the bullet rather than tip, base your timing on when the bullet is entirely within the target rather than at first impact.

>>28543165
No, I'm referring to rounds which are designed to work against people taking cover and at windows. It reads the distance of the cover and makes the bullet explode at the right time so that it hits whoever is behind the cover. It's almost like a bolter in that sense.

It's on youtube, I don't have the link though.

>>28543231

You mean the OICW?

If so that works on a different principle, that is an airburst fragmenting grenade that is fed a range from a laser rangefinder and then explode at that range.

Basically it have no particular armor penetrating qualities, the point of the airburst grenade is to bypass cover and then explode over the heads of people, not to aid in actually penetrating armor.

Its the same in real life

a better trained and armed solder will be worth more than lesser solders

look at oh say the Battle of Mogadishu

160 UN forces vs 4-6000 drugged up militiamen

20 killed vs 1500 killed

that's a 1:75 kill ratio

>>28543324

Well it's not like that ratio is from a bunch of UN soldiers slapping the Somali's with their dicks. Superior trained, armed, armored, fed, medical supplies, air support etc etc vs khat chewing skinnies in t-shirts with ancient AKs.

>>28542582
>>28542662
>>28542667

And guess what? When they start having to operate in reality rather then the magic grim land of 40k, they'll all probably die of cascading organ rejection within 48 hours as their super enhanced immune systems tear their own bodies apart! Human body was NOT designed to have nearly two dozen additional organs jammed into it.

>>28543498
In setting they obey the same laws of reality we do, if space marines became real they wouldn't just die on the spot.
Besides there's no actually reason you couldn't put extra organs in a human, provided you did it right.

>>28543498
See if you feel the same way after 40000 years of SCIENCE!

People said it was impossible to fly any object heavier than a man, people said it was impossible to travel faster than 40mph without killing a human, science will find a way

>>28541741
But what if the chapter with the best secret technology defects? Now no one will know how to counter their secret STC weapons of deathrape because no one knows how they work.

>>28544406
That's what SoBs are for, good enough to not be hopelessly outclassed by Mehreens and expendable enough that no-one cares if they die.

>>28537585
>>28545134
How many SoBs is a space marine worth?

>>28537585
Hilariously, the one place that power levels eventually meant ABSOLUTELY NOTHING was DBZ itself.

>>28541560
wasn't posted

>>28545569
all of them

>>28542942
This guy gets it.

Some of the best fighters in the world are the shittiest soldiers.

>>28539096
>Shock troops, special operations, hero-shit but leave the hard slogging, trench-fucking, foxhole digging to the real men.
Funny thing is that some Legions would specialize in attrition warfare.

>>28540074
The lot of them were accompanied by a ridiculous number of spaceships, Titans, infantrymen, etc.

>>28542998
Its like an AA12 firing grenade shells but smaller and with rocket propulsion in the grenade (meaning less room for the explosive charge).

Other than the range and slightly flatter trajectory, it's not that impressive compared to modern arms.

http://youtu.be/p4ebtj1jR7c?t=3m7s

>>28545796
40k does point that out though. The Custodes are terrible soldiers but the most puissant warriors you can imagine.