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[ERROR] No.28371341 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Fucking augmentation heavy settings. The minute I strap a new arm on myself, suddenly I am less human mentally, that instead of different people with different introspective ideas on what it is to be human. Nope, you are less-than-human and you will never get it back because you want to augment yourself.

Why the fuck is this in RPGS? Besides the obvious munchkin antics that can happen.

>> No.28371393

>>28371341
You are not less human mentally, but your self-image and by it your idea what is human has changed, and doesn't match with baseline humanity any more.

That, or it's just a rule to dissuade munchkins going full cyber every time.

>> No.28371445

>>28371393

I never asked for this rule.

>> No.28371458

>>28371393
But wouldn't it just be easier to introduce counter-measures to cyborg munchkins, rather than limiting the augments you can have before you are an empty shell.

>> No.28371472

>>28371445
What a shame.

>> No.28371517

For Shadowrun, it makes sense, at least to me, because of the whole clash between the mystical and the material.

That said, I think otherwise it's a stupid rule.

>> No.28371520

>>28371472
Oh my god J.C! A bomb!

A what

A bomb!

Huh? What are you talking about.

>> No.28371533

>>28371341
Play Eclipse Phase. You can still call yourself human in the body if a giant robot spider.

>> No.28371534

>>28371341
>>28371393
Also bare in mind that most of these RPGs were written in a context of old time sci-fi movies where Robot almost always = evil.

>> No.28371565

>Shadowrun
There's your problem.

>> No.28371598

>>28371533
I am not looking for a new one, since I am making a setting myself. I just feel angry about the general idea.
>>28371534
I guess that's true. But back then they had Blade Runner which was a good idea on how to gauge "what is human" and the replicants weren't even human!

>> No.28371642

Sure.

Your new arm is nice... to an extent.

It's stronger than the old one, sure. Steadier, too. You could punch through a thin wall, if you wanted to... it'd just do a number on your back and legs.

You also need to tune it occasionally, lest you try to pick up an apple and instead crush it into pulp and juice. Or you try to shake someone's hand and end up paying for reconstructive surgery because you crushed it into the rough shape of a drunk chef's croissant.

In the morning, you wake up, and then bolt upright. You have no arm. All there is is this foreign mass in bed next to you. In your stupor, you have no idea what it is... only that your arm's gone and there's this ice cold thing pressed up all along the side of your chest.

Then the neural links warm up and you reach up and run "your" fingers through your hair.

>> No.28371702

>>28371642
I want to know why someone would sleep with their arm instead of putting it in a charger or storage area.

Also: Looking for augmentation images. Soo..

Augmentation Thread?

Augmentation Thread.

>> No.28371706

>>28371598
But they were pretty flawed anyway.

YES I KNOW THAT MAKES THEM MORE HUMAN

>> No.28371714

>>28371598
Think about it man. You're really familiar with your body. You've spent your every waking moment in it, it feels comfortable to you. Then suddenly you have your arms chopped off and you have these metal and plastic things that smell like new car and packaging in their place? That's gotta leave a mark, man.

>> No.28371739

How about a compromise.

Your character makes a psych test vs losing humanity? Because >>28371714 makes a pretty solid point

>> No.28371741

>>28371702
>I want to know why someone would sleep with their arm instead of putting it in a charger or storage area.

Body-shape recognition, also batteries that charge from your natural bodily functions.

>> No.28371763

>>28371714
Are we talking cyberpunk (maybe the next 50-200 years) or posthuman (maybe 200+)?

Don't you think that there were people, before lense-grinding and glasses became common, that would have pittied the horrible fate of people hwo had to wear metal and glass trinkets on their faces, easily broken and guaranteed to wear out soon?

Now it's in fucking style.

Cars are the same way, even houses to an extent, and, theoretically, even clothing.

Humans will keep adding shit until there's no human left, and barely even notice.

>> No.28371784

>>28371702
Because you don't want to lie in bed like a snake incapable of doing anything.

>> No.28371803

>>28371706
Well not really flawed since if they didn't have the arbitrary limit of 4 years, they could have melded into society pretty well. Which in the end, is that really so bad?
>>28371714
I don't know about you, but the idea of augmentation makes me giddy since it betters myself physically.

Also, I would imagine more people would get augmented limbs after they were in an accident then say, just a spur of the moment thing.
>>28371739
I do like the idea of a psych test, though the setting I am working on has hundreds of races so it might be highly race specific and limited.
>>28371741
I guess that's true, but why would the neutral link die down? Your aug-arm and normal arm are essentially linked in the same way. That seems more matter of flavour, then what aug-arms might actually do.
>>28371763
Well at a point you have to compare human advancement and the idea of evolution, do you really cease to be human if the only human you have is in your history.

>> No.28371808

>>28371763
All of these things are an addition to your body and outside of your body. Glasses don't replace eyes, cars don't replace feet.

>> No.28371817

>>28371341
>Why the fuck is this in RPGS? Besides the obvious munchkin antics that can happen.
No other reason is needed.

>> No.28371855

>>28371517

In Shadowrun, everyone will think you're a fuckwit if you suggest that augmented people are "less human." Cyber- and bio-wear interferes with your body's aura and mana flow, which can have consequences when you interact with magic. But it certainly doesn't make you less of a person.

>> No.28371896

>>28371763
There's a big difference between wearing glasses and plucking your eyeballs out and replacing them.

>> No.28371963

>>28371341
someone needs download eclipse phase

>> No.28371964

>>28371534
An other thing to consider ist that at the time the only research available on replacement limbs was from people who lost limbs in traumatic circumstances and were replaced with shitty plastic facsimiles which resulted in a variety of psychological problems.

Modern research however shows that as the quality of the replacement goes up the problems decrease. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any data on someone replacing the limb voluntarily (the closest thing being bio.moders), but that will come in time too.

>> No.28371971

>>28371808
In some ways they do, they just don't literally cut them off. Chasing down antelopes on the plains has been replaced with driving to work, in some cases hours, an impossible commute on foot.

Cutting off your car is approaching being equivalent to cutting off your feet, at least in amurica.

>>28371896
Taking the glasses away from someone with horrible eyesight, and who has worn glasses every day of their life, is similar, NOT EQUIVALENT, but very similar to cutting out their eyes. It's not that big of a difference. Blind is blind. Of course, the reconstructive surgery is cheaper (maybe as much as $200 for glasses, while, currently, no amount of money can rebuild eyes.)

None of these are for fun, I know, but let's think about one situation in which many people would opt for the surgical removal and replacement of an organ: Lungs and smog.

What happens when either a city is entirely overburdened with smog, but there are too many people and too much resources to abandon it? Replace lungs with some kind of fucking biolungs, I don't know. Of course, waking up with a new weight in your chest, a new sound of your own breath, of course it'll be unnerving.

Eventually, all of humanity has a similar treatment done, either progressively as they grow older, or are kept on ventilators until a certain age.

Repeat ad infinitum as new challenges present themselves. We'll adapt, and we'll become machines, and we'll be as human as ever.

>> No.28371988

>>28371971
resources=infrastructure, sorry, I was going to go to bed, but transhumanism is a personal passion of mine.

>> No.28372041

>>28371964
This is what I feel as well, because every time I look at real augments I think to myself "Wow that's like if someone had their home burnt down, and afterwards got a cardboard box that said 'ur nu house"

>>28371971
I would imagine creating artificial, ageless bodies would be more common then expensive reconstructive surgery. But that's just my opinion.

One of the main reasons human cloning is banned, because they die extremely quick and a bit too "futuristic" for the 'every-man' too handle.
>>28371988
Same with me as well.

>> No.28372090

>>28372041
Stepping stones, Cosmonaut. Stepping stones.

>> No.28372126

>>28372090
What do you mean?

>> No.28372134

>>28371642
>You could punch through a thin wall, if you wanted to... it'd just do a number on your back and legs.
>not replacing your back and legs as well with augmented versions
Fucking casuals.

>> No.28372145

While I'm all for augments and bionics it just seems a bit ridiculous sometimes, especially in shadow run.

I know they do, sorta, make the distinction but it just seems like you can go into any shop and get an arm that works just as well as if you were operating in the jungle and just as well if you wanted to hold up a fine tea cup.

I think there should be a challenge to it. Not something stupid like cyber psychosis or anything like that. I mean think about it. You are paying someone to cut off a perfectly good limb to put metal on your body. Unless your DM is really nice there is no real way you can fix and tune your arm yourself without extensive medical knowledge and the equipment to do it least you run the risk of causing necrosis due to rejection and infection.

If you are one of those freaks who get's a power drill on your arm you look pretty damn well out of place and wouldn't be too hard to spot in a line up because not everyone has to wear a coat in the summertime to cover it up.

More than likely unless you are a mary sue faggot who was a part of some big government program where you got your delta grade cyber arm punching steel doors may not be the best idea unless you like the idea of your hand being broke and possibily undoing the flesh clamps the keep your skin and steel connected.

These are the sorts of things that should be draw backs, not some likely hood of turning into a psycho killer because you got a filling in your tooth.

>> No.28372185

http://www.corpgame.com/

>There comes a time in every Agent’s life when normal flesh and blood is not enough. Where do you turn? Cybernetics. A fusion of biology, electronics and mechanics to create a whole greater than the sum of its parts. All Agents can have Cybernetics fitted and technology being the way it is, there is very little reason not to.

Corporation. Proving it's possible to play with augmentations and not have it tied to a humanity mechanic. Admittedly there are bugnut crazy cyber-worshippers out there who will want to tear the metal out of your flesh and keep it for themselves, but with all that hardware, you're good enough to avoid that, right?

>> No.28372195

>>28371642
>It's stronger than the old one, sure. Steadier, too. You could punch through a thin wall, if you wanted to... it'd just do a number on your back and legs.
>You also need to tune it occasionally, lest you try to pick up an apple and instead crush it into pulp and juice.

I am very proud of myself that, in a superhero setting I made, I put a crap load of detail into hos his cybernetics work and their limits or what things he accounted for.

And thus used a considerable sum of his fortune using nanites to heavily reinforce his non-crushed and maimed (he lost his limbs in an accident and was already suffering from ALS) muscles and bones, does regular maintenance and upgrades to his augments, and since he no longer has an appreciable supply of bone marrow, he needs to get blood transfusions regularly.

From his perspective, it's a step forward but also a step back. Despite his transhumanist outlook.

(Also, his augments are not combat able by default, he instead just hooks his limb sockets up to a small, giant mecha and fights crime in that)

>> No.28372196

>>28371855
No, but Cyberpsycosis does.

>> No.28372208

>>28372195
oops, lemme clarifiy:
>I'm pretty proud of a cybernetic superhero I made once where I considered many of just those kinds of things.

>> No.28372233

>>28371714
>Think about it man. You're really familiar with your body. You've spent your every waking moment in it, it feels comfortable to you. Then suddenly you have your arms chopped off and you have these metal and plastic things that smell like new car and packaging in their place? That's gotta leave a mark, man.
My body is crippled by a form of progressive arthritis. It's unlikely that my knees will even still function by the time I'm 40. Some days right now I can walk fine... other days it feels like someone decided to inject every joint from my waist down with a few liters of jellyfish venom. When that happens it's generally two weeks before I can walk under my own power again and another month or two before I can walk without a prominent limp.

The kicker? I'm allergic to the medicine that prevents that from happening. I don't mean my skin itches a little when I take it. I mean that if I take the medicine for more than a day or two (read: enough time for it to do more harm than good to my body chemistry), it will cause my skin to slough off and I will die.

Being made of meat is not a comfortable condition. It's a condition in which at any given moment something important might break and the world's experts can do fuck-all to fix it. Sure, machines break all the time too, but I can guarantee you that you could ram a telephone pole into the back-end of a Ford Pinto at 100mph and let the car burn itself out in the aftermath and the number of people out there capable of restoring the thing to like-new condition will still be in the thousands.

>> No.28372237

>>28371458
Munchkins + (near) infinite superpowers through augs = fuck your defenses

>> No.28372257

>>28372237
>be a gm
>giving your players tonnes of over-powered augmentations

Well theirs your problem.
>>28372145
That's more setting dependent, then the actual issues presented.

Its like saying "Why can mages cast fireball, but not melt their hand as they are creating it?"

Its done that way to provide an interesting new mechanic, rather then a nuisance a player has to deal with 24/7.

If you want realistic augmentation in terms of maintenance and such, read into 2300ad.

>> No.28372276

>>28372126
Given enough time the associated psychoses will be wiped out by human adaptability, what psychoses there actually are. Being able to feel like 60 mph on the highway is slow didn't happen overnight.

And, once that happens, once they're standard and our psyches become inclusive of them, the only naysayers you'll find will be the equivalent of hardcore conservatives today.

Fuckingly stupidly influential despite their status as the simply incorrect answer

Politics comes out when I lose restraint, ergo I'm going to sleep. If I see you in another thread sometime maybe we could exchange information and have a chat.

>> No.28372304

>>28372145
>there is no real way you can fix and tune your arm yourself without extensive medical knowledge and the equipment to do it least you run the risk of causing necrosis due to rejection and infection.
So working with pistons and plastic muscles in your new forearm is suddenly going to make your body reject it and start rotting at the shoulder, where it's attached? Assuming you're competent enough to know what you're doing, fixing and minor tweaking should be doable.

More likely is that if you try to add more random new functionality to your arm (Now it has a gun and sword that can pop out of my palm and back of my wrist!) you're going to have hella issues getting it to play nice with your brain. Having something like a smartphone equivalent integrated into the body of the arm that you still operate with your other hand? Not going to cause an issue.

>> No.28372311

>>28372276
Its like politics magnetically attracts hyper-conservative retards. Same with hyper-restrictive liberals.

The 19th century called, they want their farmhouse ideals back.

>> No.28372324

Read some damn good posthuman fiction a while ago. The Quantum Thief. It's far enough post-human that you have only one society that's largely human in terms of what they do, and even then, they've beaten death and their society simply chooses to live largely human lives, instead of embracing the crazy shit that others do.

This one society that does the whole humanity thing, they're called Oubliette. They're living in a city on Mars, moving constantly on the backs of huge sentient machines to avoid what's probably rogue terraforming tech. They do a lifetime as humans, except that being post-scarcity, their currency is their very lifetimes. Seconds will buy you this, hours or years will buy you more. This means that with a good mind and some good business sense, you can avoid death. This is, however, seen as somewhat dodgy, as death and becoming a Quiet, the many sentiences that serve Oubliette and keep it running, is part of their cycle. Also, Oubliette has a complex system of social privacy filters called Gevulot. All in all, Oubliette feels like a crazy post-death post-cyberpunk setting, rather than a post*human* setting. The rest of the novel is way posthuman, though, and the sequel even more so, despite the sequel involving earth and actual humans who interact with disembodied uploaded sentiences like they're djinn.

>> No.28372370

>>28372304
Its not the muscles, the servos nor the hydraulics that cause the problems, its the neural linking. Its the same reason why you can't just use any lung for replacement surgery, same with blood.

If organs were easily exchanged, waiting lists for transplants would never reach the levels it is currently.

>> No.28372381

>>28372257

It doesn't have to be debilitating in any degree but it shouldn't be that they can go full cyborg without consequence (if that's the sort of game for that) like >>28372195 pointed out that's a good way to go about it.

>> No.28372393

>>28372257
But it'd be the eventual conclusion with a munchkin anyway. Steal, sell, and save until they can buy the next best ones in the rulebook. Combine with a clever mind masked behind an ugly face, annoying demeanor, and the ever-present odor of old hot pockets, and your counter-measures don't really amount to all that much. At least the decreasing Humanity scores act as a form of countermeasure, though a munchkin would still find a way to get away with 0.1 Humanity or some such bullshit.

But I tend to run fantasy, where magic is more the problem.

>> No.28372406

>>28371341
OP you hit the nail on the head

I'd love a cyberpunk setting where you can get fully aug'd but have yet to find one that doesn't have massive drawbacks.

Then again, I DID just play pic related and wanted a game like it... so yeah. I don't know if such a game exists though the knowledge of /tg/ could probably find it if so

>> No.28372416

>>28371341
It's a little known fact that every cyberpunk RPG with cybernetic augmentation as an option was actually published under the guidance of a Humanity Purist flesh cult.

It's true! Just's write your congressman and he'll tell you all about it!

>> No.28372418

>>28372233
It's not really plausible, though, that you'd be able to replace yet not maintain a meat body.

Interfacing properly with nerves, skin, and bone isn't easy. If you can do work that fine and biochemically sophisticated, you can probably just fix anything that goes wrong with the body.

Mechanical stuff is easier for a layman to picture, and to feel like he can understand, but it's not really easier to do than chemical and biological stuff.

>> No.28372441

>>28372370
He just said the arm, not specific parts of it. Repair work on parts that aren't linked to your brain is totally doable by anyone with knowledge of the mechanics. Nor is using empty space in there to store something going to cause problems. You're not going to add feedback sensors and stuff to the bones or other parts that you don't need to, after all.

>> No.28372458

>>28372393
Munchkins are a problem of the DM, not the way they are Munchkin-ing. If you provide anti-EMP shielding, you are the only person to blame.
>>28372406
2300ad, Mongoose Traveller in general, Deus Ex deals with it both ways, Blade Runner deals with a similar idea. XCOM also recently deals with this, with the addition of genetic modification and soldier augmentation into MEC troopers.

People are also mentioning Eclipse Phase, which after light reading can be added to this list. There are likely way more, but I can't think of any more off the top of my head.

>> No.28372543

>>28372458
Mongoose traveller as opposed to other traveller? I know 5 is supposed to be crap, and I have such a fuckload of other reading to do I can't keep up.

Like, GURPS traveller? How is that on this?

>> No.28372545

>>28371341
Well, in any game there needs to be a semblance of balance, or at least a system of drawbacks and penalties that keep players from breaking the system by just picking the "coolest" or most powerful choice.

Just pulling some stuff off the top of my ass, You could balance it between things like Cost, Skill, and Stealth, for instance.
Going no-augs gives you likes of additional resources, and allows for you to be more stealthy, since your fleshy body doesn't set of metal detectors and the like, but requires high skill to be as effective, since the machines don't do the work for you.

Going aug-heavy requires lots and lots of resources and possibly even some skill for self maintenance, otherwise you're looking at even higher cost to pay someone else to tune you up from time to time, but the upside is that you can forgo some skill, though you sacrifice your ability to blend in and be less obvious, unless you want to pay for the really expensive augs that also require skill to use...

and so on and so on. Like, if you ever pull too far in one category, you sacrifice the others. It's a pretty basic concept, you just need good, complementary categories. Although, it all comes down to a matter of flavor, because some would argue for humanity to be on that list, while others wouldn't

>> No.28372641

>>28372543
Well I mean, all Traveller technically but I am using the most recent, common example of the game. You don't mention AD&D terminology when discussing fantasy elements that are more commonly attributed to 3.5 or 4e.

>> No.28372662

>>28372641
I suppose. Just making sure, I'm totally unfamiliar with Traveller, although I know the fluff does differ between, say, megatraveller and mongoose.

Thanks for the answer though

>> No.28372742

>>28372418
As early as 2003 we've been directly interfacing with people's visual cortices to give people who had been blinded rudimentary vision. More recently researchers have figured out how to wire up robotic arms to the brains of chimpanzees in ways that grant those chimpanzees every bit as much control and dexterity over those arms as they have with their real ones. We're at a point where we have sensitive computer input devices that work PURELY by reading the brain's activity, and this technology is so well developed that it's showing up in toys that we give children to play with a few times before they get bored and do something else. Thanks to all of the funding DARPA's been putting into robotics and cybernetics, even the prosthetics that DON'T require a direct hookup to the neural system are reaching a quality that people would've thought unbelievable only ten years ago. There have also been some extremely promising breakthroughs on interfacing muscle and skin with metal, plastic, and ceramics (well, bone too but that's been relatively easy for some time now). Hell, researchers have even sorted out little things like "what are the basics of transmitting the sensation of touch into a person's brain" and "can we transmit thought from one brain to another", and they're poised to take those breakthroughs and run with it.

I'm not saying we're going to be uploading our brains into computers in the next decade, of course.

I'm just saying that in spite of the gut feeling that understanding something well enough to replace it should mean that you could just fix it just as easily, the evidence doesn't bear that out. This also makes intuitive sense if you look at it differently; to re-use that Ford Pinto example, its bumper would be FUCKED by the impact of the telephone pole so badly that the body shop would likely source (or scratch build) a new bumper instead of going through the trouble of piecing the old bumper back together because building a new one is easier.

>> No.28372772

>>28371642
>muh amputation
That happens with real limbs too, it's called sleep paralysis.

>> No.28372773

>>28372195
>no longer has an appreciable supply of bone marrow, he needs to get blood transfusions regularly
At the time of that point in the future, wouldn't scientists have discovered a way to grow an organ that can aid (read:replace) the function of bone marrow? I mean getting replaceable augmentations such as an entirely new arm isn't just a "bolt in and you're done" thing. You would need to find attachments to the now-possibly-severed muscles that connected to 'that' arm along with rerouting veins/arteries and redoing the nervous system so you don't suffer from ghost limb. Normally all this sounds like it would take an innumerable amount of moolah and retraining just for a boost in physical performance, and that's not taking into account that you just lost the bone marrow as anon pointed out.

Production into an organ that mimics the same function as bone marrow should be a high priority in the future

>> No.28372818

>>28371642
>In the morning, you wake up, and then bolt upright. You have no arm. All there is is this foreign mass in bed next to you. In your stupor, you have no idea what it is... only that your arm's gone and there's this ice cold thing pressed up all along the side of your chest.
>Then the neural links warm up and you reach up and run "your" fingers through your hair.


This exactly describes me after I slept on my arm all night

>> No.28372834

>>28372458
A Time of War/Mechwarrior RPG/Battletech don't treat bionics as inherently bad rules-wise, and you can get ones that augment instead of simply replicate. However, they're pretty damn expensive both at character creation and in-game, and in-universe there's some stigma attached to them. Before the Word of Blake's Jihad, the people of the Free Worlds League tended to dislike bionics, and after the cybernetics-crazy blakists started nuking places everyone got a bad opinion of bionics.

Of course, that doesn't stop the Magistracy of Canopus from having a healthy bionics program, and heavy augmentation being used in their rather decadent entertainment industry...

>> No.28372847

>>28372406
It's funny you should say that so far after >>28372185
The game is made for characters that can leap between buildings into a board meeting, riddle everyone present with bullets, have an arm blown off in the process, re-attach the wet ends, take a hostage, jump out a window to avoid security, and stop their fall by catching an antenna half-way down the building. Then realise the hostage wasn't aug'd, and the sudden stop pulped their brain case.
Fully aug'd characters are the centre point of the game.

>>28371642
>ice cold
>your arm has been in bed with you all night
>it's also attached to your warm body
Only if you sleep with your arm over the side of the bed and it's made of metal.

>> No.28372874

>>28372195

That's kinda dumb. If you replace limbs with cybernetics, you have less flesh that needs blood and shit, so missing the bone marrow wouldn't be an issue.

>> No.28372966

>>28372874
This. I mean, if the bone marrow argument made any sense at all, then people born without limbs wouldn't have been able to survive their infancy until the technology to safely administer a blood transfusion was ironed out in the 1900s.

>> No.28373095

>>28372324
>their currency is their very lifetimes. Seconds will buy you this, hours or years will buy you more.
I swear I've seen a trailer for a movie with this plot, but I'll be damned if I can remember what it was.

>> No.28373101

>>28371341
I would rather implement a rule for developing psychological problems from having large segments of your body suddenly changed.

You are less human, but you'll need some time and physical therapy to get used to your new parts. This would dissuade the "load up on all the augs!" munchkin approach.

It also represents what happens to someone who had to have limbs replaced because of a traumatic accident because, y'know, TRAUMA.

A SAN-like score, perhaps, but one that should be a bit easy (though time consuming) to recover.

That may not be enough, though, so how about: No sane doctor will sign off on cutting off perfectly functional limbs to replace them with cybernetic parts. If a health person (read: Munchkin) wants them, they'll have to go to the black market and find shady surgeons, which can have all sorts of complications.

It's not getting augmented that fucks with you, it's HOW AND WHY you get them. I'd have the psychology of augmented individuals be a major element of a campaign with such a system.

>> No.28373169

I think it mainly comes down to two things.

1. the willingless to give up parts of your body to undergo augmentation. Some settings have strict laws where only people who have lost limbs can have them replaced, while in otherse you can willingly get your arm cut off and have a robot one put on instead which is susperior to the last one you had. This then leads to point two...

2. Augmentations make you better than human. Any setting heavy with them has augmentation development to the point they go beyond replicating human capcities and above it. This creates people who can willingly become stronger, better, faster than others simply by paying for it. Its the same debate as the gun, which in effect destroyed the whole old nobility class.

>> No.28373217

>>28371341

Simply a balancing rule.

Someone can have one arm and be fine, slap on a prosthetic on the stump and suddenly they are less human.

>> No.28373225

>>28373169
Kinda the reverse from the gun though, in that generally the better-off are going to be able to get the augments while the poor can't. Of course, if they get cheap enough that's not as big a barrier.

Would put some sort of pressure on sports, though. And the Paralympics would get fucking weird.

>> No.28373276

>>28373169
>which in effect destroyed the whole old nobility class.
No, not even close. Titles of nobility don't matter so much any more, but those who are noble in everything but name are arguably as powerful now as they've been at any point in recorded history.

>> No.28373293

>>28373095
It came out about a year and a bit ago, I think. It's called In Time. And came out in 2011 apparently So I wasn't that far off the mark.

>> No.28373300

>>28373225
>And the Paralympics would get fucking awesome.
ftfy

>> No.28373490

>>28373276

>the whole OLD nobility class

Holy shit have you ever read anything that didn't have diagrams explaining shit. Of COURSE theres a new fucking nobility class, there always has and will be. The last one thought was centred about being able to have time spare enough by not farming and rather training in arms to both protect the farmers as well as steal their crops as tax.

Then when the Gun came along the horse mounted plate clad nobleman was no longer the turning point of the battlefield, and they all became officers instead.

>> No.28373560

>>28373276
>>28373490
Guys, please. This is cyborg time, not nobility time.

Anyone have more cyborg pics?

>Captcha: part Reclaim
...Captcha amazes me sometimes.

>> No.28373605

>>28371341
In my setting you're not viewed as 'less human' even if you go complete full cyborg. People willing to do that are even in high demand as private security if they have military spec cybernetics.

There's a minority of people that do think that doing such a thing is immoral and that doing that ruins your 'soul' or some other belief. Pro-naturalists.

Of course on the other side there are people who think you're trash if you're not augmented.

>> No.28373615

>>28373560

Yeah i know, but it pisses me off when people end up using their stupidty as a guise to actual intelligence.

>> No.28373620

>>28373560

>> No.28373663

>>28373560

>> No.28373665

>>28373605
Congratulations, you have made a setting that isn't childishly retarded about modification.
I don't know why it's so hard for most devs wait I do, shadowrun is shit

>> No.28373706

>>28373620
>BattleTech does better cyborgs than Shadowrun
I'm not surprised. Just disappointed.

>> No.28373731

>>28373490
Except the nobility was pretty much never the core of the battlefield. In every era, in every region, battlefields have always been dominated by infantry composed primarily of commoners. The power of the old nobility in Europe was that they owned land and therefore they could extort labor from the serfs in exchange for promises of protection and permission to remain on the land.

The distinction between old nobility and new nobility is purely one of title, where the new nobility traces their wealth to commerce and the old nobility traces their wealth to some ancestor that happened to be in the right place at the right time when someone with an army said "you get this plot of land over here".

The only reason the gun is significant at all in the switch is because it was a huge leap in reducing the amount of effort and expense needed to field an effective army. 100 rag-tag, starving, sleep-deprived militiamen against 100 well-trained, well-fed, well-rested professional soldiers was a MUCH more even fight in the late 1700s than it was in the 1400s. When you're a wealthy merchant looking to raise an army on propaganda and promises to fight one of the most well-supported armies in the world fielded by the "old money" establishment, that's a big fucking deal. The "obsolescence" of heavily armored knights, which were never really in large enough number to actually be particularly relevant to medieval warfare outside their value in capturing them so that they could be ransomed off to fund a war effort? That didn't even BEGIN to matter in the distinction between the old nobility and the new.

>> No.28373806

Not less than human, Humanity+.

>> No.28373906

>>28371533
Would you say Eclipse Phase is the best option for heavily augmented games? I've been wanting to run one for a while, although I know my group isnt mature/srs bzns to go through with it, but didn't think any of my current systems could hack it...

>> No.28373963

>>28373906
You can replace your entire body with essentially anything else including a swarm of robobees, bodies of uplifted animals like an octopus, a slightly more humanoid space whale for spending time in a habitat on the sun, have a robotic body that is so well disguised as a living body that it even bleeds or just get augmented to fuck. You can also just ditch having a body and exist as an infomorph.

>> No.28374007

>>28373963
Oh, and if you're really well trusted, liked, skilled, have the right connections, and are in the right place, you can make a habitat or at least a section of a habitat your body.

>> No.28374059

>>28373906
It depends on where you want to be on the tech scale, and what kind of universe you want to play in. EP is heavily slanted towards calling anyone that doesn't agree 100% with transhumanism bad names.

Nova Praxis is essentially pre-EP, if that makes sense. Where EP has had time to come to terms with the paradigm shift and resulting possibilities, NP is still working through the knee-jerk era of non-acceptance and restrictions.

>> No.28374262

>>28373963
>>28374059

Thanks guys. I'll check out Nova Praxis and Eclipse Phase then. I'll also give Corporation a look, a few anons seem to be raving about it.

>> No.28374319

Which settings are you referring to, OP? The only ones I can recall that have that kind of penalty for using augmetics is Shadowrun and maybe Star Wars (since it imposes a penatly to Use the Force). Eclipse Phase and Warhammer 40000 Roleplay, for example, are both augmentation-heavy and they have no problems at all with it. You could play a robot if you want to (though in Warhammer 40000 that robot will still have some meat-brain in it somewhere, or else heresy).

>> No.28374336

>>28373731

>the turning point of the battlefield

Did i say core motherfucker? Holy shit you really ARE one of those dumbasses who thinks if he writes a paragraph he must be smart.

>> No.28374344

>> No.28374583

>>28372874
He means that the bones containing the red bone marrow are gone and therefore requires an external supply of blood because his organic bits physially are not producing any more.

Though why can't they fix that easily if they have the tech required for in depth nanomachine function?

>> No.28374626

Well as a partial cyborg you would probably be limited by immuno-suppressants, and as a full body conversion I imagine there would be some sort of body dysphoria or something. Or even something as mundane as your brain case risking bacterial infection if you don't keep the ports linking what meat that remains to the full prosthetic body clean.

>> No.28374893

>>28371341
i like cyber punk and all. but how well can you turn your body from an augmented person into a hotrod? like go from sprinting at 25 miles an hour to clocking 45 and then clearing a 50 foot wall. land on palms of hands and not have the forearms snap

>> No.28374903

>>28374583
ribs have marrow. you only need a proportional amount of marrow for blood out put. its not like ur trying to supply a whole body with just ribs. just the torso. which can work. ive seen burn victims and shit lead terrible lives with out limbs. they never NEEDED a transfusion

>> No.28374918

>>28374903
You're right completely. I was reading the post we're talking about as "all bones replaced."

my bad.

>> No.28374933

>>28374918
also, finding a way to make the whole body be replaced wouldnt be that difficult if you keep the ribs. just reinforce the spine and toss a case over the ribs with supports to prevent it from CAVING IN when you bench press more than 400 pounds. its why you see those dots running across the chest. they ran a bar or cable along it so it wont rip itself out by bracing to the other implants. sure. it will probably be HIDEOUS or defective. but the only other option would be something like a Y rack shoulders

>> No.28374947

>> No.28374992

This is stupid don't cut bits off yourself JUST ADD BITS ON.

Don't cut off your arms; add on two more if you really need to - or add on a fucking chip so you can control a robot to do it for you like it was your own arms.
Don't cut out your eyeballs, just hook up extra eyeballs to your optic nerve and have DOUBLE VISION.

Don't cut out your spine - reinforce it!

There's really no reason to replace working things WHEN YOU CAN SIMPLY ADD BITS ON. The only thing you might want to cut out is a bit of fat here and there.

No-one needs fancy robot arms except to look cool or if their arms fell off. No-one needs jet fighter legs. Instead of these things a fucking interface jack to control an armored suit or control rig - that if it breaks, you can take off - and actually maintain without risking literal life and prosthetic limb.

Just- dammit- stop saying you need to cut off your arm for a cool cyberarm!

>> No.28375014

>>28373560

>> No.28375029

>>28371702
if its just one arm or your legs, sure. But how the heck do you put on both of your arms in the morning?

>> No.28375037

The only actual real-world data point we have to compare cybernetics to are real-world amputees, with real-world prosthetics. I’ve worked with them. The good stuff, not shitty wooden legs. Basic c-legs that get you back and able to walk comfortably, all the way up to Michelangelo hands that are so advanced that a long-time user can pour and drink wine then write a review about it with a pencil. One guy can even catch balls thrown overarm sometimes. Hell, legs are even better. The Genium X II performs as well as or better than a human leg in every sensible trial DARPA dreamed up, and only needs maintenance once a week to stay at peak performance, or once a month to work good. SF guys are getting their legs replaced with these after post-rehab, are going back into their front-line units in their old roles.

So you’d think being an amputee isn’t all that bad these days. You can get bits that are kind of as good, occasionally maybe better. Assuming you’ve got the five hundred grand, anyway. People adapt and overcome all sorts of issues, and long-term amputees seem to get on fine with their prosthetics. Losing a limb by accident and having it replaced doesn’t affect them, right?

But it does. It actually does, right here in the real world. Talk to any well-adjusted amputee, and there is a huge well of simmering what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-me below the surface. And those are the ones who have dealt with their demons for years and come out largely victorious.

>> No.28375041

>>28374992
Dude, my eyes are fucked up. I'd happily have someone cut them out and put in shiny new ones.

That said, the rest is perfectly valid.

>> No.28375043

>>28375037

Many lose. The suicide rate among amputees is incredibly high. And it's not a binary situation, either. Depressive symptoms are so common in those who have had amputations that more serious amputees are on the borderline of a diagnosis of depression that are not. In those who lost a limb in violent circumstances, there is a drastic incidence of PTSD, higher than that in returned soldiers from actual high-contact combat deployments. And if you’re both? They assume PTSD until you prove otherwise. And this drastic increase in incidence is common to every subgroup tested so far.

It's not just trauma. Amputees are often suffering other problems, either induced or exacerbated by their loss of limb. Anger issues are common, An inability to interact socially is common.

Almost none of these issues are rectified by the provision of an artificial limb. When the user is sufficiently proficient that they can start to take part in something like their normal lifestyle, they tend to be less likely to develop severe psychological problems, but this does little to change the likelihood of developing the minor problems that characterise their life. Even in people who have been fitted with the absolute top-of-the-range equipment, that matches or exceeds human performance in every tested field, end up suffering for having lost a limb in the first place. This isn't an 'on average' either. Governments spend shitloads on tracking the recovery of people they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars of leg to, to see whether it's worth it. And while it's much better psychologically than having low-quality product that seriously inhibits your life, there are no cases, literally none, in the data I've been able to see of individuals who have been assessed as being as mentally stable and healthy as before their limb loss.

>> No.28375050

>>28375043

Now what's REALLY interesting is that this does not just apply to serious amputations, like hands, feet, arms, and legs. Any amputation of an entire body part has similar consequences. Yes, more drastic amputations carry larger effects, and yes, amputations that impair activity carry the secondary packages of life-fucking that losing your lifestyle brings. But even losing toes or parts of fingers to frostbite or diabetes, something only you will ever see and that a prosthetic can cover functionally identically and visually indistinguishably, carries some of these same psychological issues. The suicide rate in those who have lost toes is lower than those who have lost legs, yes, but still significantly higher than the population as a whole.

And then there's amputation of sexual features, which compounds all of these effects drastically and adds the third layer of sexual identity to the mix of serious issues.

Now what that tells me is that there's a fundamental component of the whole and complete human body that we need to feel whole as a person. Identity is at the crux of so much of our psychological health. A strong and well-rounded sense of self makes for an extremely robust person. An ill-founded self-identity, an overly-focused one, or one that balances itself on factors that person can't control, is not. But I would suggest that individuals also draw a far greater amount of their identity from their humanity. Their physical form and its limits. This we never acknowledge because, hell, when do we need to? We KNOW we're human. But because this is such a fundamental concept to our sense of self, and because it is so very robust, when it IS challenged and it DOES crack, then there can be horrendous personal consequences.

And this is in people we see now, where deliberate amputation is a serious mental illness, and prosthetics are not so powerful as to dehumanise.

>> No.28375068

>>28375050

Imagine a world where a man can strip away every part of himself and become more than anyone else around him, or indeed EVERYONE else around him.

One man goes to work in a mine, and does the labour of three other men, feeling greater than any other there and praised for his efforts. But then he gets home, and spends a half-hour in the shower, just staring at the cold metal myoelectric interface pinning the metal to himself. He ignores the catcalls in the bar, from the ’naturals’ who will never get a job over someone like him. They don’t matter to him. Or at least they don’t matter as much as avoiding a manslaughter charge, because an arm that can punch through rock does horrific things to a ribcage.

Imagine the prostitute, now that aesthetic augmentation is easy. She is better-treated than all the others, and has survived where many others either die, or lose their edge and are sold to darker purpose. She will never have to worry about STDs, which have killed and disfigured many of her friends. But even though none of them own their own bodies, at least some day the others may have their back. Her body has been sold long ago, piece by piece on the surgeon's table. It is difficult enough to convince former sex slaves that they are more than a pretty toy to be fucked. How much harder to persuade someone for whom this is, physically, literally true?

>> No.28375079

>>28375068

Then there's the super-merc, augmented to the bleeding edge of human capacity, and more dangerous than an entire district police force. He's better at his job than anyone else, and has survived what nobody else has, with the vast fortune to go along with it. He has felt the terror of seeing his first augged combatant as a normal man, felt the satisfaction of finally turning the tables with wetware of his own, and finally the sense of power that comes with full augmentation and being a modern day God of War. He is more physically powerful than any human in history; so much so that he has to retard his reflexes and strength by orders of magnitude just to keep those around him safe on the streets. But for all that power, it's a different story as he wakes up in the morning, in that slow semi-dream state. As systems come online and lockdowns lift, but before they rule it safe to respond. Memories of his early life, of childhood sports and fighting with brothers, but before the memory of so many white, clinical hallways and 'now count backwards from ten, please.' When for a second nerve triggers fire down all the old pathways, but before the myoelectric interfaces are able to respond.

For those brief seconds there is the terrifying awareness that, for all his miraculous technology, he is a severed head lying on a bed, without the lungs to scream.

Systems detect full consciousness and un-safe themselves, and he bolts upright, chemical dispensers releasing mild sedatives in response to the stress. He's made it through, again. Like so many other days. And he'll make it through tomorrow, and the next, and the next. Until one day, when the thought of waking up like this every day for the rest of his life is too much, and he makes sure he never has to wake up again.

>> No.28375088

>>28375079

What does this mean for augmented people? This isn’t some unhappy accident. They asked for this. Would that make a difference, that you entered this willingly? I am certain it does. Why?
Because it does, right now, in the real world. The only people who cut off their own arms on purpose are actually massively mentally ill. In fact, the association between wanting to cut off your own arms and being mentally ill is so strong that it is a point of diagnosis in many disorders, and if it is severe enough that you genuinely have attempted it, in and of itself a committable psychosis.

But besides that point, because that may change when it is possible - leaving alone probability - for a person to make a rational assessment to cut off parts.

We already know that losing parts by accident is hugely traumatising, to the point that it is worse than being a returned soldier who experienced heavy combat.

We know that there are multiple 'packages' of psychological issues associated with this.

One is lifestyle loss, which can be attenuated by increasingly high-quality prosthetics.

One is unidentified, but I believe that it is similar to loss of identity. We know that no prosthetic, no matter how good or how bad, attenuates this. Only psychological resilience, decades of time, and fuckloads of therapy do.

>> No.28375094

>>28375088

Now if you're cutting off bits on purpose for better robo-bits, we can presume that you will experience no lifestyle loss and feel much improvement. This, of course, presumes you are buying the best, and it is your choice. If you are obliged to find work, or are a slave and made to, of course it will be an apocalyptically shit situation, but we'll assume PCs don't have that happen to them. So it will not impact your lifestyle. Of course, that also assumes society treats you no differently, even though it will. But we don't know how differently, so we'll leave that out of it. Needless to say it will not be 'better'. And we're assuming the new limb doesn't have lifestyle problems of its own. Let's say you got a general-purpose arm that does all things, not a cock-puncher 9000 that only kill dudes, so it's not lifestyle loss.

You don't suffer the package of issues for lifestyle loss beyond occasional and inevitable buyer's remorse that every man gets on a big purchase at some point, no matter how good. It's a non-issue.

This does nothing, literally nothing, to lessen the OTHER psychological blow of having your arm gone. Yeah, there's a replacement, but you KNOW it's not yours. An ugly one will be really, really bad for this. But even if it's beautiful and seamless, you will know it's not yours. Sight is not necessary for loss of parts to cause psychological damage.

Secondly, it will, I argue, be worse. In the same way that having a bad thing happen feels bad, and making that bad thing happen feels worse. Buyer's remorse is a hell of a thing, especially when there's no refunds.

>> No.28375095

>>28375037
>>28375043
>>28375050
>>28375068
>>28375079
>>28375088

Nice copy pasta.
Would help your credibility if you didn't use it so often.

>> No.28375102

>>28375094

Getting your car stolen because someone was determined to steal it and you took all measures sucks. But you feel even more like a fuck if it was stolen because it's your fault, like leaving the keys in because 'you'll only be five minutes'.

Even if it doesn't, there is not a single trace anywhere in all of the field to suggest that doing it on purpose will make you feel better. Body-modders right now are the only good comparison, but because they do this in service of a deeper psychological need, they're not a fair comparison to make so I'll leave them alone.

So, what we have is that even in a universe where you are choosing of your own free will and under no specific or general duress to buy the best quality prosthetics possible that are really good and never worse at anything than your actual part was, you still have a huge package of psychological issues incoming, which are most likely going to be as bad as if it were an accident which are known to be extremely bad, and could be even worse.

The best possible input still leads to a bad psychological output. And when you actually fill all the boxes with real numbers, well, it won't look good, will it?

>>28375095

I'm not going to spend two hours writing a fresh post every time some spends twelve seconds posting self-satisfied and thoughtless nonsense.

>> No.28375135

If you want consequences for being augmented, perhaps you could play up the whole high end maintenance and power supply thing. If you want the good stuff at the start of the game, then your resources are in a terrible state as you have to keep paying people to maintain your body and keep you juiced up. Or perhaps your augmented body is owned by another faction, so you've got to do work for them.

>> No.28375160

>>28375095
Oh come on anon, you're dismissing a very good post just because it's offensive to your fantasy.

>> No.28375186

>>28375102
Capped for posterity, this is a very good analysis!

>> No.28375220

>>28372324
>post-scarcity
>currency

Does not compute. The "is their lifetime" bit is the kicker that pulls this straight into shit tier territory from the sound of it.

>> No.28375240

>>28375041
Wouldn't it be better to have a crappy backup and extra working eyes?

>> No.28375266

>>28374992
both my eyes have scar tissue from when i was bitten by a dog. no i wont go in to it. ive always been near sighted and contacts arent really an option. like super near sighted. think border line legally blind without glasses. i would fucking love to have my eyes replaced with something that could, oh i dont know, let me see my feet in the shower

>> No.28375273

>>28375079
This is mostly well and good for thinking over, but reality has outstripped the imagination that produced the horror element here. The stuff we have today is able to detect thoughts before they're apparent to the person thinking them. It leaves it a bit rich, saying 'before the myoelectric interfaces are able to respond', when the human brain telegraphs itself so well.

>> No.28375282

>>28375160
Seems to me my fantasy is offensive to his life choices and all effort to bring about it's realization should be considered a sin towards the holy image of humanity. And I dismiss it because it's copy pasta, or in other words shows the poster won't make the slightest effort to engage in any meaningful dialogue but just wants to spout his opinion supported by little more than a statement of 'I've seen some shit!' and a bunch of scare tactics.

>> No.28375319

>>28375186
Except it's all fake

>> No.28375327

>>28375273
the brain would predict things. internal clocks and all that. even if you try to prevent a thought. the brain would be aware of it. before. during and after. no mater how fast. its still internal clocks

>> No.28375337

>>28375094
>This does nothing, literally nothing, to lessen the OTHER psychological blow of having your arm gone. Yeah, there's a replacement, but you KNOW it's not yours. An ugly one will be really, really bad for this. But even if it's beautiful and seamless, you will know it's not yours. Sight is not necessary for loss of parts to cause psychological damage.

Actually, there's a big difference between involuntarily losing a limb and voluntarily trading it in. That and prosthetics of yet are not better than the original, so it's not good to trade down. In the first case; some thing or event has stolen a limb from you, it's hurt and taken something so very useful away, and all you can do is get back a crappy version of it. In the second, hey, I can now blend and play the piano with this new arm!

It's the difference between someone stealing your car at gunpoint, and then having to replace it with a crappy old banger, and trading in your car for a more powerful model. The first one might give you psychoses and give you mental scars and phobias; the second? Not necessarily quite so much angst.

>> No.28375360

>>28375088
>But besides that point, because that may change when it is possible - leaving alone probability - for a person to make a rational assessment to cut off parts.

This is already possible. Maybe not for limbs, but for those of who are transgendered this deliberate removal and rearrangement of our bodies is a godsend. My mental health has only improved because of it.

So when the time comes that you can get a cyber-prosthesis, I am damn sure that there will be people who will do so and not be mentally scarred or lose some part of their humanity. Even if all the organic bits I had left were my head or just my brain, I'd sure as fuck go for it if I could get something that more closely matches my mental image of myself.

>> No.28375384

>>28375079
>As systems come online and lockdowns lift, but before they rule it safe to respond. Memories of his early life, of childhood sports and fighting with brothers, but before the memory of so many white, clinical hallways and 'now count backwards from ten, please.' When for a second nerve triggers fire down all the old pathways, but before the myoelectric interfaces are able to respond.

Orrr the merc could have a simple switch that disables/enables the higher power system that might make him accidentally flip out and nuke the building that he can consciously trigger after waking up, and leaves the basic abilities of being able to twitch in your sleep intact without fucking feeling like a severed head in the morning?

Because that's fucking retarded to cut off something like that for several seconds?

Because technical issues are so difficult to dig through?

>>28375068
>He ignores the catcalls in the bar, from the ’naturals’ who will never get a job over someone like him.
Because he goes to the classy synth bar instead and hangs out with the higher robo-prostitutes due to his bigger paycheck? Then fucks her all night long?

-The prostitute, you've got me there.

>> No.28375410

I'm imagining a Shadowrun game where every player is a cybernetically enhanced, female elf, mystic adept with no downsides.

>SHUDDER

Maybe rather than having an essence score, Shadowrun should have a "Slushy" score. For every point you exceed it by, the GM is allowed to punch you in the face

>> No.28375412

>> No.28375417

>>28375282
You're not engaging his text either, you know...

>> No.28375422

>>28375412
Uh what the fuck kind of chopshop is that? They can afford that shit but not the anesthesia to knock the guy out?

>> No.28375423

>> No.28375428

>>28375417
That's because in the last 5 times he's posted it he's never actually responded to criticisms of it either. Just posted it then ran off.

>> No.28375436

>>28375422
Dunno. But if you saw the opening cut-scene for DX:HR he was conscious when they were shoving all the machinery in him.

>> No.28375438

>>28375428
What kind of criticisms of it you have then?

>> No.28375444

>>28375422
Sometimes you cannot use anesthesia in brain surgery?

>> No.28375445

>>28375423
>Dem metal titties

>> No.28375446

>>28375410
>Good DM
"I want to play a half-elf, her name is Kathy Melani-Rose :DDD"

Ok, but thats 5 Slushy, where do you want them?
>Evil DM
"I want to play a half-elf, her name is Kathy Melani-Rose :DDD"

Thats 5 Slushy, I am going to wait till you don't suspect then.. WHAM.

"I want to reroll"

>>28375412
>>28375422
Judging by the wear-and-tear, seems like illicit gained goods and "discount" services.

>> No.28375451

>>28375422
A good portion of the time you need the patient to be conscious for brain surgery.

But the fact that it's emergency life saving surgery if probably what takes precedence.

>> No.28375461

>>28375422
>>28375451
Also when installing cybernetics they probably need to make sure you can actually move the cybernetic limbs, so they need you to try moving your severed arms and stuff at various times.

>> No.28375489

>>28375327
There's no need or reason to "prevent a thought". The technology would by necessity work *with* the action of the brain that creates thought.

Before a person is aware of what they are about to do, the brain is functioning towards what they are about to do. Pre-thought brain action. Technology today can both detect and respond to this, so saying technology tomorrow cannot is a step backwards.

A delay between awareness of intent to act and the machine acting is a fantasy creation purely to evoke horror out of the situation.

>> No.28375528

>>28375489
>Technology today can ostensibly both detect and respond to some of this.
I agree with you, but don't overstate it.

>> No.28375610

>>28375186
I find this a little too dramatic for my taste. Then again, people seem to be traumatized by the slightest thing. Losing a limb in the first place certainly seems to be a valid reason for mental suffering, though, and you seem to dismiss anyone who would volunteer for an upgrade as a loon to begin with, so I suppose there isn't much that can be said against you.

A lot of that stuff seems completely unrealistic, though. Allowing civilians to own cyberware that turns them into the hulk seems unlikely, and why on earth would your bionics disconnect from your brain while you sleep?

Ultimately, most of your post is either dramatization, exaggeration or based on the experiences of people who have lost their limbs by accident or through violence. You talk about buyer's remorse, but people who do dumb shit and then regret it are just that - dumb shits. Whether they bought a car, got the wrong college degree or lopped their arm off doesn't really change that. That's a problem with their personality, rather than with the augmentations.

Widely available cyberware will probably cause problems for a lot of people, because a lot of people are dumbasses who ideally would be babysat through their entire lives. Suggesting that every cyborg ever will have mental health issues because "boo hoo my arm is plastic" seems about as likely to me as super-strength arms becoming a thing in the first place.

>> No.28375617

Haven't got the time to scour the entire thread for suitable responses, so I make one of my own, sorry if I repeat things.

For me, the whole loss of humanity ty cubernetics had less to do with not being familiar with an arm or a leg, but instead with the very fact that other, often more direct, neural mechanics take over; even if you become accustomed to your neural-mapped-control of your arm, it's still not the same as before, and even more, imagine if you are uploaded; imagine if your consciousness is hooked up to this enormous machine that certainly boosts your mind's computational ability, but your mind is now essentially only a computer and your body is a leviathan spacecraft.

Regardless if your base values are the same as before, your perspective has changed from what was before to something new.

Then again, I believe in a more fluid concept of humanity; the loss isn't a one-way street to oblivion or a robotic mindset, but instead the risk of your persception of the world turning alien.

>> No.28375815

>>28371341
Because when you wake up at 2am to take a piss, you find that the ceramics, composites, and alloys that make up your cyberlimbs have taken the evening chill, and for the half-second it takes for them to boot up, you're just an amputee strapped to cold, alien deadweight.

Because if you forgot to turn off your combat processor, you think a street kid tossing you a baseball is throwing a grenade.

Because you have to practice with your new arm before you can pet a kitten or hold your baby sister without fear of hurting them.

Because your brain never needed software updates, but your cyberware does.

Because you swear that your tactical computer is giving you weird dreams and fucking with your sex drive.

Because even these days, mundanes often look at you with pity or fear, and children too young to know any better point or cry.

Because the bouncer at your favorite club makes you open all the service hatches to check for drugs and weapons.

Because you hear every day about new rogue software updates, and you might even believe that THIS wull be the one that can "cross over" to your real brain.

Because your cyberware makes you more than human most of the time, but less too often to ignore.

>> No.28375858

>>28375815
All this is speculative, and based on stuff not really rooted in realism or any existing setting with augmentation.
>Because even these days, mundanes often look at you with pity or fear, and children too young to know any better point or cry.

And by pointing, you mean "Holy cow! That guys got a robot arm! Hes so cool!"

>Because the bouncer at your favorite club makes you open all the service hatches to check for drugs and weapons.

Why do that when you can get a cheap scanner for less than the effort put forth by a bouncer?

>> No.28376216

>>28375186
>>28375102
>>28375037

This is actually an excellent analysis and the response is to think about something forward-looking (post-cyberpunk) instead of staring into the eighties and glibly reconstructing a setting that turns you on because everyone's as much a shiny automaton as they want to be.

OP wants to improve bits of himself to feel better than his present state. If we set aside every single bullshit identity problem he's likely to have, all we have left is criticizing how: through excision of tissue, as if that has no psychological price. As if that was the only way.

You know what? Buy a tailored retrovirus that slaps a phone onto your biology non-intrusively instead of using crude bullshit like chunks of silicone. Alter the brain within the context of the exciting and potential-filled world of organic chemistry and organic computing. Swallow a bio-nanomachine like you do the rest of the damn time, be in some degree of harmony with yourself.

The word cyborg applies just as much to a drone pilot flying a Predator over Iraq as to J.C. Denton or the rest of the Deus Ex pastiches who fail to capture the utter poignancy of Johnny Mnemonic. Gibson says this, if we'll only listen: you at your computer writing something online right now are part of a vast network of prosthesis we use to think and communicate and remember and feel. A century ago nobody heard dead men singing because recorded music wasn't around; a dozen millenia ago nobody used symbols to record thought or benefited from them in the way we do when we read the next post down. Fuck the dystopian cyborg, frankenstein-like, with his metal limbs and the screws in his flesh. He was built in the image of identity in revolt against itself, so he has neck-bolts like the stillbirth-inspired horror Shelley wrote about.

>> No.28376231

>>28376216

At the very best the creatures turn into Ghost in the Shell characters, whose flirtation with a bland existence makes the whole franchise drag on like the first Star Trek movie.

Why not desire bioware instead, bioware that interfaces with all kinds of machines, a less scarred set of interfaces that allow the self to grow rather than feel the sting of the knife? Why not be Spider Jerusalem, wearing an eyepiece with extensive capacities when it works to but not seeking to permanently affix a lens to the eye when one could take a pill and receive the benefit?

Fucking myopic little shits, all of you, yearning for an age that never was because you misunderstand the complaints it was inspired by as aspirations to embrace. Go jerk off to a bronze sculpture exhibit and reject yourselves if you want, but don't whine about how the considered analysis answers your question about why there's a perception of loss when people write about these subjects as if it's an alien concept to you, as if you've never lost something you thought of as yours and can't manage to make the connections to relate one to the other.

You can cut off whatever parts of yourselves you want to, but stigmatizing others who think about it won't lead to more or better discussion. It'll just lead to the beating of your own drums and the confirmation of a simpler belief that takes more varied options off the table.

But then, it's like voting.

>> No.28376250

I just want to say that, as someone who lost their leg above the knee in an accident almost a decade ago, each new generation of prosthetics makes me feel MORE human, not LESS.

>> No.28376257

>>28376250
People who think that cybernetics will make you feel less human are just projecting their own personal body horror at the thought of having parts of themselves replaced onto the entire concept in an effort to add a balancing factor against it.

>> No.28376269

>>28376257
Rational people don't get an arm chopped off for a cybernetic one - even if it's stronger, faster, it doesn't heal, and it can fail in ways an organic one wouldn't. Prosthetics repair what was broken; cybernetic augmentations will be implants, not replacements. Upgrades to what was already there, instead of eschewing the flesh entirely for plastic and metal.

>> No.28376273

>>28376250
Would you agree with >>28375186 regarding trauma?

>> No.28376277

>>28376250
That was mentioned. But we wouldn't want to push you into a series of stressful explorations of whether that's going to be a bit of an asymptote until they're able to clone you a new leg. And, you know, different people think differently.

At some point this all resides in the brain and maybe we'll change human psychology. There's instinct and there's reflex and all that.

A fully digitized creature without a simulation of atmosphere might have to hack certain instincts and reflexes so it wouldn't feel like it was choking or suffocating all the time - does that make the instinct inherently bad or inherently good? Neither, it's just a useful instinct if we need air.

And we need our bodies. Whether we make them better or not, it is neither good nor bad that we have self-preservation mechanisms on a species-wide level; it is merely adaptive.

Condolences on the leg, incidentally.

>> No.28376286

>>28376273
Why don't you just ask a combat veteran who's just returned from the front if he completely agrees with the perspective of a doctor who;s worked with PTSD-sufferers for fifty years? You don't get the same perspective living it as you do studying it, and often the perspective from inside a problem is an endless morass of blind spots. Do you expect people to have eyes in the back of their head?

>> No.28376288

>>28371642
>Oh god this foreign thing next to me!
Dude, sleep on your arm for one night and you'll wake up feeling exactly like this. It's not a sanloss situation by any stretch of imagination. Besides, if it happens every day then I'd presume that there's something wrong with the neural networks because your body is supposed to wake up before your conscious mind. Otherwise you would have the same thing happen every morning with your real body too.

>> No.28376289

>>28376269
People with robot limbs, glass eyes, fake hands - these are people who lost something, but get something just about as good back. They have their lives saved. They're made human again. They're made whole. That's the point of a cybernetic limb. They're about getting your humanity BACK.

>>28376273
Absolutely, to an extent. As prosthetics get better, it gets easier. More people make it, because they're easier to learn, they make you feel more HUMAN, more WHOLE. They reduce the stress of an otherwise-horrible experience. They humanize and make completely where you previously felt broken and isolated.

Remember, everyone, cybernetics aren't a purely hypothetical thing. You can look to real amputees to see the effect that increasingly high-quality prosthetics have on their psyches, their lives. It's a good thing.

>> No.28376293

Texhnolyze explored the aspect pretty well. Better that GitS imho

>> No.28376303

>>28376289
Wouldn't it potentilly be a still better thing if we had stem cell derived tech that could just replace the lost tissue with new, human tissue grown from the victim's own cells?

>> No.28376304

>>28376250

More close to human, or more than human?

I'm sure you enjoy your leg, because prosthetics can do wonderful things these days. A decent leg beats shit out of a wheelchair all day every day. But if you could press a button and have your real leg back, would you press it?

>> No.28376311

>>28376269
For me what makes me against cyber and augments the most is that it will run on proprietary software. I know that selling your soul to a megacorp is a trope in cyberpunk genre, but I seriously wouldn't want anything produced by Apple implanted in my body. What if they decide that my iHeart needs yearly software updates for the small price of couple thousand neodollars, or they will discontinue the service?

>> No.28376317

>>28372196
Yes, but cyberpsychosis is literally you deciding that fuck the rules of fleshbags, you are a monstertruck that walks like a man and can punch whatever the fuck you want. It is the delusion of invincibility reinforced by the fact that you are coated with thick metal armor.

>> No.28376323

It's not an augmentation if it does psychological damage or prevents as healthy a psyche as might otherwise be possible. It is at best a trade-off. I'm kind of sympathetic to the biotech points made above, though.

>> No.28376346

>>28371393
A cyberpunk FATE mod I know of justifies this (it happens with all augs, even bio augs, and since FATE is really abstract, anything that gives you a flat mechanical bonus, such as advanced training): Using "augmentations" (i.e. stuff that gives you a bonus in terms of game mechanics outside of being an aspect) drains your Humanity stress track because it makes you feel inordinately superior. When your humanity is depleted, you do reckless shit, like leaving your signature inside the vault you stole from after infiltrating the enemy base with your stealth augs.

>> No.28376355

>>28376303
Absolutely. Until that's a thing, though, I'm happy every single day to finally have a prosthetic leg with a kneel whose built-in computer matches the gait of my other leg.

>>28376304
Absolutely. My prosthetics bring me back to human, they don't make me more than human.

>>28376311
That's not how the prosthetics or medical implant industry currently work. If they did, people wouldn't accept their pace makers, valve replacements, or new limbs for fear of exactly those kinds of consequences.

Prosthetic limbs are about amputees trying to live normally. 'Augments' will be about weaving in hyper-strong muscle fibers, reinforcing organic bones, that kind of thing. I can't reflect on how that will make people feel.

I can, though, say that there are already people who have longer legs, bigger lungs, larger hearts. People who are objectively biologically better at, say, running than a short fellow with asthma. Objectively better at running than any other human, even. They don't seem to be developing mental conditions about their basically inhuman levels of ability. And people who use performance-enhancing drugs seem more guilty about cheating than fundamentally disconnected to those not receiving chemical augmentations.

Maybe these games are right. Maybe augments will drive people bonkers. I just don't see any signs of it, though, in the parallels already starting to exist in real life.

>> No.28376359

>>28372196
And cyberpsychosis has always been a completely optional thing. Always, and always 100% optional.

I'm not arguing either way here, this is my first post in this thread, but I'm just sayin'.

>> No.28376377

>>28371341
>Fucking augmentation heavy settings. The minute I strap a new arm on myself, suddenly I am less human mentally, that instead of different people with different introspective ideas on what it is to be human. Nope, you are less-than-human and you will never get it back because you want to augment yourself.

No you are closer to the Divinity of the Omnissiah.
The Flesh is weak, only Steel persists

>> No.28376385

>>28376355
>They don't seem to be developing mental conditions about their basically inhuman levels of ability

I don't really want to quibble with definitions here, but I think it's kind of important for the argument. If HUMANS can reach that kind of ability, the ability isn't INHUMAN. "Peak human performance" doesn't become "inhuman" just because there's only one person on earth that holds the world record for some feat. Human performance of anything is on a bell curve, and people on the extremes are still human.

Auguments would fundamentally change that.

>> No.28376394

>>28373665
But Shadowrun is a dualistic setting where magic and your soul is real. Strapping blenders to your face doesn't so much make you less human as it simply reduces the connection between your body and soul. Cyberware isn't the only way to lose your essence, you could get your spiritual face clawed off by spirits or paranormal creatures - that doesn't make you less human, it just pushes you closer to your spirit being severed from your body and leaving it behind to die. Shit, you can't really lose humanity in Shadowrun because what the fuck is a human anyway? Metahumans? Metasapients too? Sprites, AIs, Spirits? The definition simply doesn't really work for the setting.

Unless you're talking about 5E with its cyberautism. That shit's pretty dumb.

>> No.28376396

>>28376385
That's why I also mentioned performance-enhancing drugs. They seem to be a pretty close parallel; steroids can and have pushed people beyond what unassisted human potential is, for example. They're something put into the body which makes a permanent or at least semi-permanent change to push someone beyond reasonable human potential. Sure, there are roid rages from chemical imbalances, but a fundamental disconnect from human-ness?

Not really.

>> No.28376398

Cybernetics have drawbacks because a central theme of cyberpunk is that technology alienates as as well as uplifts, and how technology doesn't fix fundamentally flawed human nature. Cyberpunk isn't just some vapid art style slathered on top of whatever like steampunk.

>> No.28376416

>>28376398
>technology doesn't fix fundamentally flawed human nature.

Bullshit, that just means you aren't augmented enough.

>> No.28376444

>>28376416
But anon, there is no augmentation for a flawed psyche.

>> No.28376446

>>28371341
Because its true? The minute your replace your body with anything mechanical then you become a cyborg. A fusion of man and machine and people do have a right to judge you for that especially if its done by consent and intentionally to improve yourself. People still have a problem with people changing their looks with cosmetic surgery and that doesn't change anything at all except for your appearance. You expect people to tolerate you once you tell them you chopped your arm off to punch things better?

>> No.28376447

>all I can think of reading this thread

>> No.28376453

>>28376355

You're focusing on the positive. Rightly so, too. In my experience, whether people dwell more on what they have lost or what they have regained is more important in their recovery than any amount of physical therapy.

But your prosthetic situation is a happy one. Not the amputation event, which must have been horrible. Separate for a moment. You wouldn't blame the prosthetic for the amputation ,because the amputation what due to something else. The prosthetic is in your case an intervention to imrpove your life and give you back much of your life you lost, depending on how much of your old life you have the audacity to take back.

This is the prosthetic in the role of salvation from a fate it was not part of. But what if it isn't?

>> No.28376461

>>28376398
>whatever like steampunk.

What a Steampunk Cyborg might look like

>> No.28376464

>>28376453

An augmented person chose to have their body part removed explicitly for the replacement limb. In their case, no matter how much the limb gains them, they have lost something because of it. And they CHOSE to lose it.

Look at your leg, and think of what it did to help you. Now look away. Now think about something you bought. Something you bought thinking it was great, and that you spent a lot of money on. Maybe a car, maybe a holiday. Maybe a relationship you invested immensely in. But when you had it, you soon realised it wasn't worth it. At first it's denial, pretending you enjoy it, and occasionally believing yourself. But it's harder to lie t oyourself. And eventually, you start justifying it. You can make some good excuses, but they just don't cut it. They're you're angry. Angry that you have a shit product, angry at whoever sold it to you, angry and the entire situation. But most of all, you're angry at yourself for having chosen to buy it, and for thinking ti was ever good. Angry that you can't take it back for a refund. Angry that now you're fucking well stuck with it, and that however shit it was, not having it would be even shittier. You're forced to live with this product, look at it, use it every day. Every. Single. Day. And every time you do, you feel that resentment building up, day after day, for the entire rest of your life. The full power of buyer's remorse.

Do you feel it?

Now look at your normal leg, imagine your prosthetic on their too, and imagine that you chose to do that to yourself.

>> No.28376467

>>28376446
I think you are missing the point. Its not about others caring about you, its how you see yourself with augmented limbs.

If stronger-then-real augmented limbs are available, people won't have a stigma since it will be ingrained in culture, just like glasses or cars.

>> No.28376469

>>28376453
The issue is that it necessarily is. Psychologically healthy people will not have their limbs removed for artificial ones. Augmentative implants, perhaps, but certainly not replacements. And people who are already psychologically unhealthy will likely have a disconnect from reality and from humanity already, not because of the limb.

You're mistaking cause and effect.

>> No.28376479

>>28376464

Maybe someday our minds will handel this with apathy. Certainly, we can adapt. A hundred years ago moving at thirty kilometres an hour would have blown your fucking mind in half. Nowadays we drive ourselves around at 50, 80, 120 and don't even notice. We fly at 400+ kilometres an hour and don't give a shit. Somehow, we adapted.

Maybe we'll adapt to this too. But all we can use to predict the future is the present, and right now the present of deliberate augmentation looks like this.

>> No.28376488

>>28375438
>What kind of criticisms of it you have then?
See >>28375337
>>28375360
>>28375384

>> No.28376493

>>28376467
>If stronger-then-real augmented limbs are available, people won't have a stigma since it will be ingrained in culture, just like glasses or cars.
That's total BS. Cosmetic surgery, drug use, pornography and even certain hobbies like watching cartoons/anime is ingrained in many cultures but many people still look down on you if you admit to using, taking, having, liking or participating in any of those activities. My father has a stigma with glasses, hearing aids and canes simply because he has to rely on them. People will act differently and its not going to go away simply because more people engage in them.

>> No.28376507

>>28376394
>Unless you're talking about 5E with its cyberautism. That shit's pretty dumb.
>cyber-autism
The only way to be a cyberautist is to be an autist, and then add cyber.

>Social Limit = [(Charisma x 2) + Willpower + Essence] / 3 (round up)
Here's your social limit in 5e. You'll notice that Essence contributes one or two points to your social limit, but where you land on the scale between uncharismatic fuckhead and pornomancer is what really matters.

>> No.28376509

>>28372195

I thought for a second that was an augmented Poison Ivy.

>> No.28376513

>>28375037
The fact that now is the best time to be someone that's lost a limb in human history doesn't make it "not all that bad", dude.

>> No.28376548

>>28371533
In ephase you can clone said human and make him loyal to the death even if he was your worst enemy before your little brain fiddling.

Ephase is spooky like that.

>> No.28376576

>>28371341

Its called balancing risk versus reward.

Why crawl into a dungeon full of monsters just for the sake of going there? Why take the risk, when there's no reward?

There needs to be a motivation, either a carrot you want or a stick you're trying to avoid.

So, players get some trinkets off the corpses of their enemies. Maybe some actual treasure too. And they become stronger than they would be too if they had not taken the risk as well.

So in a game it has to be the same with augmentations. The minute "you strap on an arm", you're more powerful than before, so you're rewarded. But where's the risk? How do you balance that?

Well, unless you want to play a game where your character could die on the table to a surgical complication everytime (as per many real life surgical proceedures), something going to have to be made up.

Otherwise limbs that can arm wrestle big blue boy scouts are going to be more widely adopted than toilet paper.

So you get the disincentives. Since people are irrational, you can work that in - anti-aug groups thinking you're subhuman. Media fear-mongering of rare events out of proportion.

Whether you are or aren't less human, you're on a planet where people don't believe in evolution or the lunar fucking landing. So they treat you worse. And they influence people to think their way. That's not just how things work in games, that's how real life is.

And eventually those people influence others. Evidenceless claims spread and get widely believed.

TL;DR Augmentations aren't treated as special gear that get an exception to the risk and reward.

>> No.28376597

>>28371341
No reason besides ingame balance, really.

>> No.28376598

>>28376488
That's a good point, should a transgender person undergoing surgery lose humanity too?

>> No.28376634

>>28376598
By humanity-loss-for-alterations, yes. So should someone undergoing cosmetic surgery. For alterations-to-regain-humanity, like prosthetic-anon discussed, they would probably regain humanity for being assigned to a comfortable gender, just like how a person receiving skin grafts for facial scarring or an amputee getting a new limb would regain some of their sense of humanity.

>> No.28376646

>>28376396
I dunno man, I'm not sure those people with misshapen, tumor-like muscles could be very happy with their lives. Or that dude that decided that fuck lifting, he's going to have implants that make him look like he's ripped. Or the people with faulty butt implants literally making flips beneath their skin. Yeah, they chose it, yeah, they wanted to improve themselves, but I really doubt they're happy with the state their bodies are now.


Of course, the fact that they are chasing a phantom idea of what they should look like, then are disappointed when they get it because it's not how they imagined it also contributes. But then again, that's a problem that has existed since the birth of mankind.

>> No.28376657

>>28371971
Taking the glasses away from someone with horrible eyesight, and who has worn glasses every day of their life, is similar, NOT EQUIVALENT, but very similar to cutting out their eyes.

As someone who had bad eyesight as a young kid, and was bullied that's total bollocks.

Even when I'd my glasses taken away I'd never say for one second I'd have made such a melodramatic association.

You're talking about the difference between someone hiding a small box of contact lenses out of malice and this - http://www sankakucomplex com/2013/08/28/china-boys-eyes-stolen-by-thieves/

>Blind is blind.

That's a ludicrous platitude. The first is "I can't see again until I've my glasses back from those again". The second is "THEY FUCKING MAIMED ME, FUCK, FUCK, FUCK" and the sinking realisation that you're never going to see another sunset and everyone who knows you is going to awkwardly and with the best of intentions treat you as a kind of illiterate helpless cripple. A world of habits things you could do before are gone, forever.

>Of course, the reconstructive surgery is cheaper (maybe as much as $200 for glasses, while, currently, no amount of money can rebuild eyes.)

So, you made the blind is blind remark knowing its completely meaningless and contradicting it immediately?

>> No.28376662

>>28376646
Is that because of the implants and alterations, or because they already had self esteem and body image problems that caused them to get them in the first place? You're confusing cause and effect.

>> No.28376669

>>28371341
Hey, I've seen people who have those Flex-Foot things that let them run real fast and 9 times out of 10 my first thought is "Holy shit! That nigga be missing his legs! I hope I don't lose my legs!"

>> No.28376865

>>28376598
Actually, yes, in Shadowrun. The surgeries and hormonal treatments for that condition are classified as Major Cosmetic Alteration, I think, in the cosmetic bioware rules. They have a cost of, I think, between .6 and 1 essence point? I'm not sure on the exact cost.

But yes, it does cost essence. So a trans person that's had surgery for their condition is 'less human' and at theoretical risk for cyberpsychosis than someone that...hasn't.

Now there's a horror movie in the making for the SR world.

>> No.28376875

>>28376865
What, trannies gone bananas?

>> No.28376892

>>28376875
Well, it's not like there aren't real horror movies based around the crude concept. But they could slap a "BASED ON REAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE" sticker on it, maybe sell it as a found footage thing.

Horizon would probably be all over it. Through one of their shell corporations, of course.

>> No.28376919

>>28376865
Yeah, that really struck me as fundamentally wrong when I read Augmentation. Why the flying FUCK does being trans make you less mystically whole? What the shit is a transgendered mage gonna do? Give up a part of themselves so that they can actually be comfortable in their own bodies? Or have that magic that'll give them a nice job with the corp of their choice? That's basically the options they're given. I mean fuck, you could get CYBEREYES for less than that essence...

>> No.28376921

>>28376892
Does Shadowrun have cyberpsychosis?

>> No.28376942

>>28371341

That's exactly why it's in there-so you can't munchkin out and replace your entire body for shitz and giggles and stop everyone else that would otherwise be comparable to you. Also it's a product of a time where robots are gonna take our jerbs and they're evil.

>> No.28376948

>>28376921
Theoretically. It's been there as a 'this is a thing that sort of might exist if you want it to but we aren't going to give you any rules for it' option since 1E, but never as an actual rule.

>> No.28376956

>>28376948
So more 'hypothetically' than 'theoretically,' and certainly not 'actually.'

>> No.28376964

>>28371341
Looks like a crash test dummy.

>> No.28376975

>>28376919
You can actually get a half dozen or so cyber-penises mounted all over your body for about the same or less essence.

Or maybe cyber-vaginas, but they never bothered to actually make rules for that because they thought the player base would be too immature about them. ...as opposed to how they've treated the cyber-cocks.

>> No.28376985

>>28376956
...potentially.

>> No.28377000

>>28376985
So it's factually potentially more 'hypothetically' than 'theoretically,' but certainly not 'actually?'

>> No.28377007

>>28377000
Possibly!

>> No.28377014

>>28377007
So, affectionately I query, it's possibly factually potentially more 'hypothetically' than 'theoretically,' but certainly not 'actually?'

>> No.28377021

A friendly reminder from those of us who actually do have a legitimate reason to prefer augments to their current limbs:

We're not far off. When these augments start arriving we're going to jump at the chance to do away with whatever parts are broken and battered and then, as the tide turns to augmenting the parts that DO work we'll be the ones who already know what we're getting into.

We learned to use our new limbs once and each time will be easier than the last.

Be nice to cripples

>> No.28377029

>>28377014
Perhaps.

>> No.28377052

>>28377029
My soliloquy, I see, is perhaps an affectionate query, of whether it's possibly factually potentially more 'hypothetically' than 'theoretically,' but certainly not 'actually?'

>> No.28377058

>>28377029
Literally?

>> No.28377070

>>28377058
Reasonably literally, my soliloquy, I see, is perhaps an affectionate query, of whether it's possibly factually potentially more 'hypothetically' than 'theoretically,' but certainly not 'actually?'

>> No.28377116

>>28376985
>>28377000
>>28377007
>>28377014
>>28377029
>>28377052
>>28377058
>>28377070
>>>Reddit

>> No.28377121

>>28377058
Of course not, don't be ridiculous.

>> No.28377131

>>28377116

>> No.28377136

>>28377121
I want to add 'ridiculously,' 'ennui,' and 'for free' in there, but I'm running out of linguistic space. Care to help?

>> No.28377152

>>28377131
>shitposting and derailment is fun
Woops I thought this was /tg/ not /v/

>> No.28377164

>>28377116

I'm not following you. Are you saying literacy is restricted to Reddit and does not belong on 4chan?

>> No.28377166

>>28377152
Ehh, thread was dead already.

>> No.28377168

Ridiculously, you see, my ennui for free, because reasonably and literally my soliloquy, I see, is perhaps an affectionate query of whether it's possibly, factually, or potentially more 'hypothetically' than 'theoretically,' but certainly not 'actually?'

>> No.28377181

>>28377168
>Ridiculously, you see, my ennui for free, because reasonably and literally my soliloquy, I see, is perhaps an affectionate query of whether it's possibly, factually, or potentially more 'hypothetically' than 'theoretically,' but certainly not 'actually?'

Ridiculously, you see, I'm free of ennui, because reasonably and literally my soliloquy, I see, is perhaps an affectionate query of whether it's possibly, factually, or potentially more 'hypothetically' than 'theoretically,' but certainly not 'actually?'

That should flow better now.

>> No.28377191

>>28377164
I don't care about your spelling, but posting in a thread that doesn't pertain to the thread, is A) Shitposting B) Derailment
>>28377166
Its been up on first page for the last 10 hours

>> No.28377201

>>28377191
>muh augments

>> No.28377261

>>28375037
>>28375043
>>28375050
That's all irrelevant to mentally healthy people who voluntarily augment themselves.

>>28375068
>>28375079
>>28375088
>>28375094
This is all bullshit speculation. You're imposing your own view of the world on people who would exist in a totally different culture and setting. In a world where augmentation is normal, it's only going to be weird to the luddites, religious puritans, conspiracy theorists, or other crazy people.

The weird thing then would be not to augment, and it would probably be considered immoral not to if you have the ability to, much the same way that today it's considered immoral not to give medical treatments that we know will help .

The augmented would not pity the "naturals" for being inferior to them physically, but for being inferior to them economically. Trashy lower classes can't even afford a fucking cybernetic body?

Problems with the functionality of your augs won't be any worse or more traumatizing to deal with than problems we have with our own bodies today. They break down randomly for inexplicable reasons. One moment you'll be standing there just fine, the next your back won't work and you can't move for a week because you slipped a disk. You wake up at night, paralyzed, hallucinating, and in a wild panic, but unable to even emote because your ability to move inhibited by the same systems that keep you from acting out your dreams. Our bodies constantly ache, snap, crack, break down, malfunction, give us unwanted urges, do stuff they're not supposed to, go out of control with cancers and tumors, and suffer countless other issues.

We can deal with this shit, and we would be able to deal with the problems that fully realized augmented bodies would carry with them. You're not going to wake up in the morning melancholy to lament your lost humanity; you're going to fucking praise modern science for liberating you from your weak, pain-riddled old body that needed an hour just to get started every morning.

>> No.28377286

You can find other penalties to keep it from getting out of hand.
The Heavy Gear game I'm in has a player with a cybernetic right arm, upper torso and eye. She can't walk around in civilian areas without a long sleeve jacket and a glove to cover her hand. She can't walk around without a ton of stage makeup (squad leader is a theatrics buff) and chunky glasses to disguise her eye.

She lost points to appearance and influence because of them, whenever she gets injured her chance of infection is significantly higher and if something breaks in the field or one of her many batteries dies she is SOL. She needs regular maintenance and we can't go anywhere without her getting held up in port of entry security.

On the flipside she is significantly stronger than she would usually be, has hidden weaponry in her arm, a storage drive in her head and can see in infrared. Also indulges my embarrassed cyborg girl fetish but I had nothing to do with the GM allowing this.

>> No.28377336

>>28376548
Not if he has the right psychosurgery to make such modifications destroy his mind.

Still, there's a guy in rimward who takes forks of women he likes and psychosurgeries them into his personal harem.

>> No.28377369

>>28377261
While humanity loss is primarily a game balance convention, I'd say that reactions to augments would differ on a case-by-case basis and from individual to other. Some would take it pretty hard and have negative emotions for not being "whole" anymore, while a body aug fetishist would welcome it with open arms.

>> No.28377373

>>28377261
Every time I see this pitiful bullshit, I like to remind you something: these days, is perfectly possible to remove all your fragile and painful organic teeth for prosthetics that can be easily exchanged if broken, are more durable and hard than regular ones and does not require a special medical or psychological treatment to be implanted.

Why haven't you visited your dentist to exchange your shit organic teeth for perfect smile eternal artificial prosthetics?

Isn't like the society have something against artificial teeth.

>> No.28377415

>>28377336
Actually you can bypass that can't you?

I mean, it would be a high roll but that's not a problem in ephase. As long as the mind is there you should at least be able to bypass that without anything to happen.

>> No.28377425

>>28377373
You don't get any benefit any of us care about from artificial teeth. Additional arms, like Tenshinhan? Those would be useful two or three times a day minimum. Whiter teeth? No one has ever commented on my teeth, and I don't really notice them either.

>>28377415
You don't even need a high roll, you can just copy them then keep re-instantiating until it works.

Like when they're "interrogating" the OZMA agent in gatecrashing.

>> No.28377482

>>28377425
Artificial teeth don't get tooth decay, don't chip or break, don't hurt or ache. There's no reason not to augment yours today.

>> No.28377495

>>28377482
If you take care of your regular teeth that won't happen either. It would be expensive, too. Doesn't your jaw degrade with no teeth in it?

>> No.28377563

I will never understand why people would want partial cybernetic implants, rather than full conversion. The only limiting factor is the technological one in which one cannot create a body completely superior to a human one, but we are talking about fantasy here, it's like wanting to be a magician in a low magic setting. Just retarded.
Full conversion for the win.

POASTING BEST CYBORG
Give me an imaginos body over everything. (Kos-mos comes second though. Magic gynoids ftw)

>> No.28377579

>>28377563
>partial cybernetic implants
Because they got injured in an accident and need a prosthesis?

>> No.28377583

>>28377563
I want neural implants and legs, as well as maybe eyeballs. But I want to keep my arms and hands human as possible, its personal taste.

>> No.28377587

>>28377495
Well, if you take care of your regular body that won't happen either. And it would be expensive to get augments.

>> No.28377613

>>28377495
>If you take care of your regular teeth that won't happen either. It would be expensive

Damn classic! Right on the spot!

1- D'uh! If you take care of your organic body, most of the common problems people like to throw as reasons to "augment" their bodies won't happen. Accidents, diseases, lack of muscular tone, all of that can be solved or prevented through some basic exercise and diet.
And now you'll reply "But muh super-strength! And lifting 1 ton with one arm!". Yeah, because the government and police will let anyone to carry an implant with industrial applications, just like anyone can operate heavy machinery without a license.

2- "Is expensive". Classic second 'argument'. And again, easily defused by "yeah, cars were expensive one hundred years ago, and guess what, they are slightly less expensive, but still fucking expensive. Can you buy one after working a month or two with a minimal wage?"

Now, I can see the rebuttal: "But there are cheap cars! And in the future they will be even cheaper, so prosthetics are going to be cheaper", which can be answered by "Yup, cheap prosthetics which are barely better than what do we have these days. Which would still require a shit-load of maintenance, not considering the surgical procedure to implant them on first place".

>> No.28377644

>>28377425
>Additional arms, like Tenshinhan? Those would be useful two or three times a day minimum.
Tell me what you've done in the last 24 hours that really needed expensive extra arms, and that couldn't be done with cheaper machinery much easier.

>> No.28377649

Things like implants never made much sense to me either. There isn't exactly any room inside of a person to stick some machine in there.

Nevermind how silly things like installing a robot arm is. What the heck would be strong enough in the body to anchor such a thing? Wouldn't it get terribly infected and the body would reject it like any other foreign object?

Yeah I agree with the guy up here... better a full conversion, just pop your brain into a giant robot body or something.

>> No.28377675

>>28377587
>>28377613
No, your regular body will never be able to offer you an extra set of arms, that's quite different.

>> No.28377709

>>28377675
Humans have nervous system wired for four limbs, though. Extra arms sound impractical.

>> No.28377710

>>28377644
Huh... I was typing on the PC and got a call, so I had to stop my skype conversation to answer the phone. That counts, right?

Oh, and fapping while erp'ing!

>>28377675
Hahaha.

Seriously, the best thing you could came with is:

"I don't understand why most things on our society are designed for people with 2 arms, and therefore, why a third arm (and beyond) quite often would be absolutely useless, but MUH RULE OF COOL!"

>> No.28377717

>> No.28377734

>>28377717
And there is that argument thrown away. Humanity is choice and growth, not being a meat bag. I'll take my nanobody please.

>> No.28377753

>>28377644
Had to hold more than two things at once. More so when I have to manipulate them.

>>28377710
Sorry for trying to find an actual example instead of expressing my fetish for gumjobs :^)

>> No.28377755

>>28377717
But she isn't a human?

>> No.28377756

>>28376657
bullshit. It's not perfectly analogous, but if I had my glasses lost and could not replace them I'd probably kill myself. Yes glasses are easily replaced now, but that wasn't true for most of human history, much like eyes which we're still working on being able to replace. It's a difference of degree and technology, but it is similar.

>> No.28377789

>>28377734
No, you have to have meat bag too to be a human.

>> No.28377798

>>28377755
well later, they find out that alita/gally, also has a digitized brain, but that doesn't matter either. Sechs, one of her clones is two years old, and is a god damn manly man. Humanity is not flesh, it is soul, and even something with AI can have soul.

>> No.28377818

>>28377798
>soul
Being human is just sophoncy, and even an ai can be sophont.

>> No.28377831

>>28377756
>but if I had my glasses lost and could not replace them I'd probably kill myself.

You're joking right, what the hell do you need, coke bottle frames or you can't tell the different between a man and a tree?

>> No.28377844

>>28377831
Not Coke bottle, but yeah pretty much.

>> No.28377869

>>28377818
true dat.

>> No.28377886

VISION AUGMENTATION
-2 HUMANITY

>> No.28377956

>>28377710
>I had to stop my skype conversation to answer the phone
You'd need two mouths for that. Or possibly a wondrous thing called speakerphone.
>>28377753
And when did you need to do that, wherein it wouldn't have been easier to put down an item and do that separately?

>> No.28378008

>>28377886
Analogy flawed.

You traded nothing you already had to use glasses or clothes, armor, houses, computers.

>> No.28378014

>>28378008
Dignity.

>> No.28378049

>>28378014
But what if you're an 18 year old female librarian with poor eyesight?

>> No.28378050

>>28377956
I said they'd be useful, not that I cannot function with two.

>> No.28378080

>>28377373
cost benefit analysis. The benefit I gain from replacing my teeth is not currently worth the cost. The benefit I gain from these hypothetical augmentations is worth the cost. No one is advocating trading in a new car for a 10+ year old clunker.

>> No.28378105

>>28377373
Would you say someone with dentures is less human than someone who has natural teeth (or no teeth at all)?

>> No.28378106

>>28377831
Okay so maybe killing myself is a bit of hyperbole, but I would have my useless eyes put out, or cover them up, because they're damn useless. My "glasses" actually can't be made out of glass as the lenses would collapse.

>> No.28378116

>>28378008
If you have non-working eyes, you're still trading nothing for them. I, for one, am legally blind without my glasses. I cannot anything beyond colorful blurs outside of about 6 inches of my face.
If I point lasers at my eyes to fix it, that doesn't eat "humanity." If I affect, even permanently, an extra external lens to correct it, that doesn't eat "humanity." but replacing the entire defective unit?

>> No.28378147

I always had a character in my mind, a mechanic, lost his arm in some sort of accident, got a robotic prosthetic/augment for it. But it had magnalocks in a lot of the joints and various other spots, the locks allowed for modular replacements to use, this could be as subtle as a powered screwdriver in his index finger or going as far as pulling out a minigun to fire from his whole arm.

He'd carry all the mods in a bag/suitcase or even his car for the more robust mods.

I don't know which system he'd work in best.

>> No.28378158

>>28374947
Global Frequency is awesome.

>> No.28378167

>>28378147
Manny from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress has those.

>> No.28378171

"Do you not trust the feelings of the flesh?

Our biology yearns to join with yours. We welcome you to our mass. But you puzzle us. Why do you serve our mother? How can you choose cold metal over the splendor of the flesh?

But you fear us. We hear your thoughts, and they rage for your brothers who you believe dead.

But they are not. They sing in our symphony of life.

We offer another chance to join us. If you choose to lie down with the machine, we will rend you apart... and put you separate, from the joys, of the mass."

>> No.28378172

>>28378014
Being blind isn't exactly dignified.

So for all of you argumentation lovers: Something brought up against Olympian runner Oscar Pistorius was that his Flex-Foot Cheetah leg prosthetic actually outperform human legs. To be precise his limbs use 25% less energy than runners with complete legs do and require 30% less mechanical work for lifting the body. So why don't you cut off your lower legs and get them replaced?

>> No.28378188

>>28378172
Those limbs are shit if you're not on concrete or some other flat surface. Human foot still has the best all-round performance.

>> No.28378199

You ever talk with a soldier? I mean, really talk with someone who has killed people.

Augmentation in cyberpunk games is designed so you can kill people more efficiently. And killing people really does cut portions of your humanity away. If magical power is tied to the body, you're also giving up portions of that as well.

Of course, most of it is for munchkin avoidance, because a street samurai who can throw 20 die elementals at your ass is ludicrous.

>> No.28378200

>>28375102
>Body-modders right now are the only good comparison, but because they do this in service of a deeper psychological need, they're not a fair comparison to make so I'll leave them alone.
...

You could just say "their data doesn't match with the result I wanna have, so I'll ignore them".

>> No.28378208

>>28378200
>You could just say "their data doesn't match with the result I wanna have, so I'll ignore them".

Welcome to basic Statistics.

>> No.28378217

>>28378199
More specifically, if you can kill people without feeling remorse or having other problems you're already crazy.

>> No.28378226

>>28378188
But we got foot shaped prosthetics too. You could exchange them as needed. For city or nature use.

>> No.28378239

>>28378105
Not at all.

There is an old Mexican actress who actually pulled off all her teeth so she could characterize a granny on an old film. Eventually Nestle signed a contract so she would be the 'face' for one of her products, the chocolate "Abuelita". Nobody ever have questioned her humanity, because being human is more complex than having or not a biological part, and trying to reduce it to a mere check-list is brain dead stupid at best. Being human is not only what is inside your body, but also how the fuck do you behave when around other human beings, is about self-identification and cohesion with a group and ultimately, being Human is about the mere act of Being.

Many of the faggots who appear in these threads, ultimately, don't understand the complete implications of cutting a limb to replace it with a mechanical part.

Breaking news for you, buddies, is not like wearing a pair of gloves, or getting a new haircut. Applying a prosthetic is a huge stressing event that many can't deal with. Talking like that ("If offered the chance, I would cut my leg for a prosthetics in a second!") is being an edgy dumb ass, pretty much like those who think murdering people is something anyone can do for the lulz.

>> No.28378242

>>28378199
Meh. I've exchanged the feet of my character for big hands because she lived in micro-gravity, and feet are a hindrance. That was for convenience sake, not killing people.

>> No.28378245

>>28378208
Welcome to bad statistics you mean.

>> No.28378261

>>28378242
Only if your character was a on a peaceful science mission which knowing the setting and system she probably wasn't.

>> No.28378273

>>28378239
>makes a point in the first paragraph
>tries to destroy (badly) in the rest of the post
wut

>>28378261
I don't think I've mentioned the setting or the system though.

>> No.28378283

>>28371763
>>28371763
Those are tools that humans make and use unless youre a nigger. Nothing post human about it.

Pulling out your eyes for cyber eyes is someting entirely different.

>> No.28378297

>>28378283
Tools too.

>> No.28378308

>>28378226
Have you seen those? They're shit.

>> No.28378358

>>28377563
Our bodies are fucking amazing. They're a testament to millions of years of human evolution, and billions of years of natural selection. They're a direct link to our ancestors, ancestors so far back we don't have names for them. They're marvels of "engineering", more sophisticated than virtually any artificial designs currently on the table.

To spurn them as being flat out inferior to artificial versions, to be obsolete, to be worthless, is not only naive, it's insulting. And stupid. And you make mechanical engineers weep.

It's like saying that yellow is shit and should be replaced entirely by flourescent yellow. That's how stupid you sound.

Christ.

>> No.28378392

>>28378358
Technology does iterate much faster than biology though.

>> No.28378418

>>28378080
We already covered this, dude.

The hypothetical cost of cyber implants can be astronomically high because on addition of the prosthetic on itself, it should be added the cost of the surgical procedure and the maintenance associated with it. Yes, even in the future, it would cost a load of money, just like cars were fucking expensive one hundred years ago, and guess what, are still fucking expensive these days.

And the theoretical benefit those implants could grant are not what most games suggest, as enhancements that could have potential industrial or military applications would be heavily regulated by government.

Quick example, keeping with the cyber-eyes debate above, basic enhancement like recording or telescopic view, are already available through cameras or binoculars, and are cheaper. Advanced technology like thermographic or nocturnal vision would be forbidden or restricted, just like in these days, is on several states and buildings.

>> No.28378461

>>28378418
yes, but it's much faster to design an upgrade than evolve one. So eventually replacing a body will be both possible, and the better option

>> No.28378478

>>28377798
Souls are overrated. We are who we are because we are thinking living beings. Even if our brains were digitzed and our hearts replaced with miniature power plants, we would still be thinking, living, beings.

The "soul" is just an outdated concept created to define who is human, because we didn't have the words or knowledge to define what makes us sapient.

None of us have souls. That doesn't mean we're any less human, any less moral, any less caring, compassionate, or kind. Just as if we did have a soul, it would mean we would be incapable of wickedness, cruelty, or hatred.

>> No.28378502

>>28378297
No its different. Much different. Stop being a faggot.

>> No.28378505

>>28378226
>>28378172
I love the idea of augmentation.
But I also love bodily aesthetics. And those legs are ugly as shit. Come back when they match the performance and look of the human form.

>> No.28378506

I'm doing a little homebrew because my friend wants a Ghost in the Shell type game and while Eclipse Phase is hackable it didnt sit well, I needed some things it doesn't have and didn't need some mechanics and setting I'd miss.

I'm trying to tweak it so that everything feels different, but is easy to manage. You want to feel there are superior brands and levels of tech without having to chew through a ton of mechanics.

I don't feel balance is such a big deal based on what the game is about. If its about a missing persons agency, your own specialist frames of knowledge, rolodex and access will keep your relevant. If it's about a frontline special forces outfit then by all means hang onto your body as long as you want to, but you had the same opportunities as everyone else.

>> No.28378510

I for one am not looking forward to the massive unemployment crisis when "minimum 5 years experience to clean toilets" becomes "minimum 30% augmentation to clean toilets".
>durr hurr work for free
>durr hurr take out a loan
It's the same thing, just a euphemism for "people without rich parents will be rejected".

>> No.28378533

>>28378273
Was it future science simulator rpg?

>> No.28378534

>>28378358
Except there isn't any engineering. It's done by genetic drift and chance mutations which just got lucky. And implicit in natural selection is that you ancestors are ALWAYS obsolete. The you of now is better suited to your niche than your ancestor was. Chance plays a factor, far too large a factor, so you may be a palsy gimp. You have a genetic obligation to reproduce, to thrive, and using your intellect to find a way to augment your physical body is exactly what is called for.

I'm no transhumanist. Talking about a singularity utopia of interconnected Facebook headsets googling everything and placing ads everywhere in your 500 dollar gadget you pay 100 dollars a month to keep active when a third of the planet doesn't have fresh water and something like 90 percent of that planet doesn't earn enough to buy that gadget in a year is self absorbed and myopic.

But if you have the financial means to be that asshole who can buy a full aug, even as every single part of your body is manufactured by slave labor in Foxconn sweatshops? It is objectively better, just as it is objectively better to be an emperor than a serf.

>> No.28378550

>>28378502
Not really. If it's that good that it feels like your own eyes, only much better, then I don't see it.

>>28378533
FATE in a Revelation Space-y setting.

>> No.28378564

>>28378510
What about the massive unemployment crisis when robots are invented and it turns out they can never really rebel if we don't make them to.

Think about how everything, everything you've worked and toiled for just blows up.

>> No.28378582

>>28378392
And I'm not saying technology is bad. I'm saying that saying our bodies are bad is, generally, stupid.

And I'm saying this as someone that, the day full body prosthetics are available and reliable, will happily be shedding their own for one.

>> No.28378593

I'm fairly well convinced all these mechanical augmentations will fall to the wayside to be forgotten like old grey golems as biological augmentation gradually surpasses the legalistic and ethical regulations preventing it from already doing so.

Of course, reasons for such regulation are perfectly understandable once you look beyond the surface of 'body horror'.

An army of rogue cyborg Terminators is nowhere near so scary to an establishment, nor humanity as a single Shoggoth, because it only would take one to change everything, and everyone. It may even look entirely human, up until the moment decided not to.

Don't imagine merely bone and flesh, imagine carbon fiber and hydrocarbons, imagine nylon and thermal ceramics...

>> No.28378617

>>28376865
It's a little dated... but Bubblegum Crisis and more so the AD Police files.
- the old ones not the new ones

>> No.28378624

>>28378582
I agree completely, the human body is an amazing thing. I'm sorry I misunderstood you.

>> No.28378628

>>28378534
>The you of now is better suited to your niche than your ancestor was.
Not really.
Although I agree with what you are saying, the you of today is competing to prove that you are good enough to make some babies that make some babies.

Evolution is deaf, blind, and dumb. We are the only thing capable of fixing its mistakes, so why not?

>> No.28378664

>>28378461
Faster doesn't mean cheaper.
Faster doesn't mean available.

Toying with a can of worms, think about guns: the entire history of humanity is about designing better and faster weapons to kill with. What was the intention behind the first tools crafted by the caveman? To kill faster and better and mutilate the body with the minimal waste and effort.

Anyway, coming back into the discussion. It is better to design a weapon (rock-spear-bow-crossbow-musket-gun), than evolve stronger arms or some gland to spit poison or acid. And that's how things have been going for the thousand years we have been around, and we have reached a point where we can blow up entire cities if we wanted to. Hey, and small hand guns are sold by peanuts.

Why a large part of the 4chan users doesn't have guns?

Money, psychological profile, local laws, you name it.

Why it would be different for prosthetics that exceed human capabilities with potential genocide applications? Why would the government forbid a guy to carry a shotgun, but allow him to wear a prosthetic that can crush a car? Why the government would forbid a camera on their office buildings, but allow a certified stalker to implant recording cyber-eyes?

>> No.28378690

>>28378564
Actually I'm looking forward to that.
Not because I expect a robot butler. I expect unemployment is going to be terrible, because the only jobs will be technical robot administration, or being the CEOs that run shit, who are going to cut and gouge everyone in the lower classes beyond the limit

It's kind of like Objectivism, which didn't seem to understand that their system wouldn't work without unlimited service of robots? Once those assholes have their robots, they'll truly try and get rid of everyone else.

Then the revolution will come. No more half measures. No more "well, here's a little reform: you get paid for your mandatory overtime, and there are rails in place to keep you from falling to your death so easily." No more "here's your necessary state functions but filtered through a private sector that does nothing but line their own pockets." No more lies.

Long live the glorious people's revolution.

>> No.28378692

>>28377373
I've had 2 root canals this year and I'm going in for a crown on one of the teeth tomorrow.
- the other one will be in a month when I can better afford it as I have no dental coverage.
I want to hold onto those shreds of teeth that I still have and would rather have the nerve-dead ceramic topped originals than have them pulled and wear dentures or full prosthesis

>> No.28378712

>>28378692
What about having them pulled and have new dentures with which you feel as much as you would have with your old ones? That's what we're talking about. Not shitty prosthetics.

>> No.28378742

>>28377649
you could throw some additional stuff for brain augs in in sinus areas and trim a little bit of bone here and there. It might make getting hit in the head with a baseball bat worse - but hopefully you don't do that.
I also doubt that there will be any "jacking in" to interface anymore. dermal or sub-dermal contact patches are really all you need.

>> No.28378774

I really don't see what's the point of augmenting humans, when designing robots for the particular tasks will be cheaper and more efficient. Why put cyber arms on a soldier when you could just have an armed drone equipped with couple of missiles, you know?

>> No.28378794

>>28378692
You know, the trick question is: why have you done that? Many faggots here don't do it because "If I can't put chainsaw teeth, why bother? I'm that edgy!" or "I'm so poor!", and a large part of the discussion have been about those hipsters and their bullshit.

And another large part of the discussion have been above prosthetics as result of accidents, which I think absolutely nobody ever have argued against. If anything, people want to drag amputees into the same category than edgy kids who want a cyber-arm ("because my rule of cool!"), and that have been proved several times as a flawed comparative.

>> No.28378802

>>28378774
"Why try to become better at something since other people or things are better than you at that particular task?"

>> No.28378807

>>28378664
Not the argument I was replying to.

>> No.28378816

>>28378690
>Long live the glorious people's revolution.

Aye long live... about as long as it takes the drone swarms pick off off the 'human chaff' and return vast swath of populated earth to the edenic wilderness playground of the wealthy and powerful.

It's for the good of humanity as well as the planet after all!

The surviving 'wild ones' might even be kept as an amusement, a window into humanity's tribal, pre-godmented past. Fearing and even worshiping the elite cyber-pantheons in their steel towers that touch the sky, guarded by fiery angels and silver knights.

>> No.28378822

>>28378774
The medical field is going there anyways
and
Having someone with an actual brain out there is better than drones or some sort of AI
would be the two main reasons.

>> No.28378832

>>28378807
Your argument was irrelevant to begin with.

>> No.28378838

Someone hacking your brainware so that you have stock-ticker nags on the bottom of your vision.
Pop-ups in your vision that for a low low price will go away.

How about hunting for augs?
Wire EMP generators into a specific room (like a hotel room) and harvest expensive augs.

>> No.28378853

>>28378822
If it's a task that requires human decision making then just stick a dude in the control room, done and done. There's no point in upgrading humans since they still never outperform robots, it's just waste of money.

>> No.28378860

>>28378593
Nanobots, son. Technically a form of mechanical device.

>> No.28378881

>>28378802
Well, why? I know that at least I won't bother, and probably so doesn't majority of people.

>> No.28378898

>>28378860
Dude, nanobots is just another word for living cells.

>> No.28378917

>>28378881
You don't bother becoming better at anything because other people are better than you?

>> No.28378920

>>28378860
Most production 'nanobots' are just bacteria or viruses with customized genomes.

>> No.28378921

>>28378853
>If it's a task that requires human decision making then just stick a dude in the control room
Right. Because signal delay isn't a problem at all.
>There's no point in upgrading humans since they still never outperform robots
Because humans aren't much better than robots at nearly everything or anything like that, right?

>> No.28378961

>>28378860
We're technically made up out of organic nanobots

Now how do you like that!

>> No.28378980

>>28378898
>>28378920
...I'm talking about actual nanobots, as in, nano-sized robots. Not slang for bacteria or viruses we've figured out how to modify and "control".

More directly, I was referring to the "grey goo" scenario, wherein nanobots (actual ones) capable of manipulating matter on that scale go out of control and things start getting nightmarish. Or perhaps I should say Shoggothish.

It was a specific response to the post, pointing out that mechanical creations are just as capable of being scary as biological ones...in theory.

>> No.28379007

>>28378980
It's the same shit.

>grey goo
Won't happen, nanites will not be able to be exothermic in general conditions.

>> No.28379032

>>28378712
>>28378794
I want to keep the body image I have as "me" it might not be anyone Else's image but it's mine.
I think I also don't want to concede to time and age.
Honestly I would rather have teeth cultured from my own genetic material vat grown (or in the backs of mice - whatever ).
If I had a way to trigger some cellular processes and not others I would like to reach a sort of homeostasis. Sure, I would love to fix my slightly asthmatic and scarred lungs, heal the microfractures in some of the bones in my feet, things like that but I would rather keep as much of the original property.
Nano-machines are fuck-terrifying as for all intents any sort of small shift in a magnetic field can create the equivalent of cancer but I would rather lie in a shielded room in a coma for a week for an organic "tune up" than upload my consciousness to a new body or onto a server.

>> No.28379039

>>28378917
I'm lazy, and so is everyone else. People just want to do the minimal amount of work to pay the bills and then watch telly or something.

>> No.28379063

>>28378921
You can give a dude two cyber arms and he still won't outperform assembly line robots. He'll cost more and produce less, and this holds true to just about any field.

>> No.28379065

>>28378980
There was a bombing in Mexico about 4 or 5 years back at a nano research facility.
- what were those niggers thinking?

>> No.28379074

>>28378980
Exactly, that's what the proteins inside living cells are, nano-sized robots.

>> No.28379092

someone mentioned piloting their bodies like starships.
with the correct interface you could pilot a starship like your body.

>> No.28379098

>>28379092
Eclipse Phase?

>> No.28379100

>>28379032
You have your heart in the right place, anon, but you have to remember that you're not created in "your" image, you were created in God's image. People shouldn't tamper with the bodies we've been graced with.

>> No.28379108

>>28378980
Won't happen, don't worry.

>>28379039
Sure, whatever.

>>28379032
That seems fairly irrational, can't really talk about it on an emotional perspective. It's like trying to explain a fear of spiders or something.

>> No.28379129

>>28379100
deists pls go

>>28379092
That's untrue. You ARE your body.

>> No.28379146

>>28379108
>Sure, whatever.
Now you're getting it, anon!

>> No.28379154

>>28379063
But... Goddammit, combat is not at all like being an assembly line robot. The things that a robot is good at do not at all coincide with what it takes to be effective in combat.

>> No.28379184

>>28379154
A cruise missile is what it take to be effective in combat. Launched from a comfortable chair half the world away.

>> No.28379202

>>28379184
>what is urban warfare

>> No.28379225

>>28379202
Nothing an artillery barrage cannot solve?

>> No.28379233

>>28379108
It's not something I stay up at night worrying about. All I was trying to do was point out that LITERALLY MECHANICAL, as in, NON-ORGANIC, AS IN MADE OF METAL AND PLASTIC DON'T GIVE ME SOME SHIT ABOUT HOW PLASTIC IS TOTALLY ORGANIC BECAUSE THE OIL ORIGINALLY CAME FROM LIVING THINGS nano-scale machines are as theoretically capable of turning into ravening fleshmonsters that can convert more things into ravening fleshmonsters as nano-scale organic "machines". That's all I was fucking trying to do. And I get a bunch of goddamn HURR NANOBOTS ARE REALLY VIRUSES AND BACTERIA AND YOUR OWN CELLS DURR pedants thinking they're being fucking clever, when they're actually more akin to leaping out at someone trying to explain to a child how opposable thumbs work in order to point out that thumbs are actually just fingers.

I'm not including you, the person I'm replying to here, in said list of smartass pedants.

But christ, this is why I rarely join in on discussions on science on the internet. Shit like this.

>> No.28379238

>>28379100
No to be le edgy or anything, but that is bullshit.
There is no reason why you shouldn't improve upon what you have been given. Sure, you can respect those who came before you and made you so, but the entire point of progress is to build upon what is already there and keep on reaching for what is not.

>>28379184
A Cruise Missile is a weapon, dumbass. Not a soldier. It does not have to interact with civilians, make complex decisions, be tactically aware and flexible, or even live with itself after it gets used.
It just has to blow up.

>> No.28379269

>>28379233
Metal and plastic nanomachines aren't real, though. Organic nanomachines are.

>> No.28379289

>>28379100
I would have to disagree with that to some degree. I would not say no to a prosthetic arm or leg if i needed one. - or metal pins for broken bones. And I don't burn people for being "unclean" for having pierced ears

>> No.28379293

>>28379238
>interact with civilians,
Why would I want to interact with civilians?
>make complex decisions,
Yeah, that's the guy with the button is for
>be tactically aware and flexible,
Obsolete when you can just kill everyone in a hundred yard radius
>or even live with itself after it gets used.
Cruise missile 1 - human 0 in that respect
>It just has to blow up.
Exactly!

>> No.28379296

>>28379098
Actually Cowboy in Hard Wired goes through this while flying a Delta

>> No.28379319

>>28379289
You're not a big fan of Job, I'd wager? Have you ever thought that mayhap your misfortunes have a reason behind them?

>> No.28379321

>>28379293
>Why would I want to interact with civilians?
>Obsolete when you can just kill everyone in a hundred yard radius
I...
You...
Goddamn my jimmies are rustled as fuck.
Good job, I guess.

>> No.28379324

>>28379233
That sentence was too long, I don't get what you're trying to say. Sorry. Grey goo is only possible in SF or Kardashev much-more-than-what-we-are civilizations.

>> No.28379341

>>28379319
Remember guys, just report and hide.

>> No.28379375

>>28379319
>Have you ever thought that mayhap your misfortunes have a reason behind them?
I'd guess shitty genetics and/or not keeping his body in as good of a shape as it should be.
I suspect you are trying to imply there's some sort of divine aspect to it.
Retard.

>> No.28379391

>>28379375
Don't bully people who believe in Santa pls.

>> No.28379526

>>28379319
I have the creepy feeling, just a prickling on the back of my neck - like I'm taking a Turing test with a Jesuit.
Job is bullshit.
I have a problem with the whole Torah/ Old Testament as word of God and not a literary conglomeration of a bunch of people - some total camel fuckers creating a document for tribal unity. (not to mention the whole problem of integrating at least two versions of "GOD" - a war God and a agrarian God - not that the New Testament doesn't have problems. But then Jesus is mortal so he isn't a dick when you play video games with him
- getting back to Job.
The book of Job is either a pissing contest between an Omniscient Omnipotent being who already knew the outcome and one of his servants, or a science experiment. No actual care, no "loving God" would do this.
(notice how the souls of those killed are pretty much inconsequential - NPC's if you will) Man I would love to talk about this but it shits p this thread.

>> No.28379560

>>28379319
Well there are implications with one broken arm.
- but for the rest nawwwwwwwwww

>> No.28379602

>>28379560
storytiem?

>> No.28379626

>>28379225
Even if they are up right at you.

There's a reason people with artillery loose in the first place if they aren't armed for everything.

>> No.28379680

>>28379526
>I would love to talk about this but it shits p this thread.
We're 50 posts past autosage. It doesn't matter.

>> No.28379694

>>28379626
I just don't see what good $500,000 cyber arm does against $50 IED, but then again I've always been bit of a realist.

>> No.28379736

>>28379694
Who said anything about cyber arms?

I'm talking guns here, close combat isn't just about melee.

>> No.28379752

>>28379680
True.

I think that the most fascinating thing about book of Job is that it teaches to us that
A) God isn't just
B) we shouldn't care about that
God has created this amazing universe for us, filled with things awesome and terrifying, and we should just try to enjoy it. It's like you wouldn't stop playing the greatest MMORPG there is just because there's also some griefers too, you know?

>> No.28379768

>>28379736
Guns aren't augments, guns are tools. Besides, your cyber arms would allow you to wield heavier weapons more accurately.

>> No.28379811

>>28379602
Nope. just cursing God and breaking my arm moments afterwards.

>> No.28379819

>>28379694
It could have a bomb sniffing attachment, or maybe a metal detector. Maybe their legs let them carry heavier armor (you don't need to be augmented for this one, mind), or their organs are more protected from the shockwave from the explosion. Maybe their eyes were augmented and they noticed telltale signs of a buried IED.
Come on, you gotta think a little here.

Also
>Realist
>Endorses fighting wars with only cruise missiles
Yeah, nah. You NEED boots on the ground, son.

>> No.28379831

>>28379768
No seriously, we were talking about warfare and what would best to use here.

You(?) said artillery and i countered with that artillery isn't exactly as godly as some people make it seem, that infantry and other sorts of tools would beat it.

>> No.28379870

>>28379819
Fact: I would rather have sex with a robot than an American soldier. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

>> No.28379883

>>28379752
Except God is the griefer in this story. it's like Playing an MMO and all of a sudden some Dark Souls asshole cheat build played by the game developer is ganking you.
- over and over.
Job is bullshit.

>> No.28380014

>>28378832
Don't be rude, my argument was that upgrades will certainly be an option given enough time.

>> No.28380064

>>28379063
yes he won't outdo an assembly line robot, that's not what he's for. He will be able to do things the robot can't, because he's sapient. And if you just build sapient robots, that defeats the entire bloody point, since a human life will probably be a cheaper source of sapience.

>> No.28380097

>>28380064
True, and robots guided by a sapient human is even better than putting an augmented human in the same task.

>> No.28380131

>>28380097
yes because we can build a robot for every possible scenario, before it happens and signal lag isn't a thing.

>> No.28380166

>>28380131
But we can build augments for every possible scenario, then?

>> No.28380264

>>28380166
We can make the abilities of a soldier more through augmentation, which will help him deal with every possible scenario.

>> No.28380302

>>28380264
Why would we equip black people from low income backgrounds with augments, though?

>> No.28380342

>>28380302
Because they have shown themselves to be willing to fight and die for abstract concepts like one's country, they are also competent at what they do, and dead soldiers make for bad press.

>> No.28381865

>>28371341
It is interesting how everyone in this conversation that has taken the side of the rules as written so easily defend the illogical "Cybernetics remove your soul" mentality fostered by Shadowrun (which has a valid reason, Cyber/Bio messes with mana and your own aura). But To be honest, unless someone goes full conversion (on the Motoko Musanagi level here) you're not going to seem less human in your own mind. People end up with prosthetic limbs all the time and don't act any less human. The rules are simply a artificial control of a segment of the gamer population who are immature hack-and-slashers who belong behind a controller, not a character sheet.

Yes it should depend on the setting, but I've not seen any setting that says "I'm sure you guys are mature enough in how you role-play out being a person who willingly became a brain in a machine."

Anything else insults my intelligence.

>> No.28381885

>>28381865
And now I wish 4chan would allow edits... I meant Motoko Kusanagi.

>> No.28382013

>>28381865
>) you're not going to seem less human in your own mind. People end up with prosthetic limbs all the time and don't act any less human

>>28375037
>>28375043
>>28375068

Reading the thread before commenting stupid bullshit that have been debunked before may save you some minutes of your time.

Unless you're trolling.

>> No.28382047

>>28371341
It is an abstraction of a loss of sense of self. Augmentations do not need to make you weaker than you were to cause a loss of sanity. I entertain myself with books, music, games. Imagine a world where, through technological capacity, through rare augmentation, you can absorb data like this instantaneously. In mere seconds you could become capable of knowing and playing every instrument perfectly with your perfect fingers. You can read every book without ever batting an eyelash. You're faster than a cheetah, and you could easily kill an elephant with the pure strength of your nigh invulnerable metal body. You can no longer feel pain because of a metal chip in what little is left of your organic self.

One of the most frightening aspects of technological innovation is not about the dangers it poses, but those it eliminates. Humanity is as defined by limitations and suffering as it is by innovation.

>> No.28382095

>>28382013
Yes, and you're coming to 4chan for real evidence. People talk out of their ass all the time here.

>> No.28382202

>>28382095
>http://courses.washington.edu/rehab427/Winter%202009/Depression_review.pdf
>Conclusion: Depression is very prevalent among amputees of all ages, etiologies and backgrounds; it must be addressed by all practitioners with their patients and taken into account when planning both a short- and long-term prosthetic treatment plan.

Academic abstract vs chinese cartoon. Huh, hard to pick.

>> No.28382271

>>28382202
That can come from the trauma that led to getting the prosthetic.

>> No.28382321

>>28382271
Good thing that wasn't addressed in a previous post linked by another member huh

>> No.28382372

>>28382321
Did you pause before going on the attack and think that perhaps I was just getting my opinion out on the matter?

Also yes I did read through this thread. The majority was Noise over Signal, and decided to fuck it and post.

Sorry I rustled your jimmies, but I have a right to an opinion. Sort of sensitive for a page Autosaged to Page 10 aren't you?

>> No.28382376

>>28382271
>http://www.webmd.com/beauty/breast-implants/20070810/breast-implant-suicide-link-confirmed
>"What our data suggests to us is there is a subset of women choosing to get cosmetic breast implants who have psychiatric illness prior to implantation. This results in high risk of unnatural cause of death -- suicide and deaths related to alcohol dependence and drug abuse," says Lipworth, an assistant professor of medicine at Vanderbilt University, Nashville, Tenn.

And again, more psychological studies proving there is a strong between body image and body modifications, vs bullshit derived from a Chinese cartoon.

>> No.28382414

>>28382376
>"What our data suggests to us is there is a subset of women choosing to get cosmetic breast implants who have psychiatric illness prior to implantation..."

PRIOR to implantation. They were already nutters to begin with.

>> No.28382450

>>28382372
BBBBAAWWWWWW!

So, you went to a thread in page 10, posted an uninformed opinion that have been already debunked, and now that you received a response that you didn't like (why are you posting, btw?), you come back with gratuitous insults?

Oh, 4chan, never change...

>> No.28382476

>>28382372
No one said anything about you not having a right to an opinion. He was just saying your opinion is wrong, or at least already responded to.

>> No.28382484

>>28382450
Well, you're the one getting self righteous and angry. I'm not even mad.

>> No.28382529

I wonder how biological and genetic enhancements might affect people's minds.
I mean, what if you could replace your arm with a completely biological arm that's been enhanced with muscles and bones that are superior in every way to regular human muscles and bones.

>> No.28382543

>>28382484
yfw your opinion is debunked and you have no other way to respond but trolling

>> No.28382553

>>28382484
>you're the one getting self righteous and angry.
>Implying implications.

Is ok, anon, you are touching bottom, don't worry, you can't come any lower than this.

>> No.28382618

>>28382543
No, I'm not even trying to troll. Your responses are golden though.

And yes, to get back to task, every post of a actual response I've gotten shows that the person prior to the prosthetic had shown signs of mental illness to begin with.

To be honest this just strengthens my opinion not counters it.

>> No.28382621

>>28382414
http://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2000&issue=03000&article=00014&type=abstract

Exactly! Which, as written in this article, is the "typical" patient. "Several previous studies have shown that breast implant patients demonstrate a number of differences compared with the general population".

>> No.28382701

>>28382621
Wait... so people with mental illnesses are typical?

I don't get your logic.

>> No.28382755

>>28382701
I really wish this thread could go on and on, is getting hilarious.

No, anon, the study proves the people who goes into breast implants and plastic surgery typically have psychological problems. Followed by the previous article, this people have higher chances to become addicts and commit suicide, just like any amputee, because, you know, messing with your body image is stressful and leads to a very unstable mind.

And I am barely assembling the conclusions from 3 articles here!

>> No.28382759

>>28382618
There are at least two people responding to you prior to myself. Lumping them all into one person is pretty autistic of you.

Also does that mean in your eyes that only mentally ill people want prosthetics?

>> No.28382789

>>28382759
You know? I am authentically mad at that anon. I mean, for Pete's sake, this asshole made me lose my sides once again!

You own new sides, anon!

>> No.28382816

>>28382759
Funny how you toss that word around "Autistic"... I doubt you even know what that means.

Also you've twisted my point. What I said is those that have problems after receiving a prosthesis usually have problems beforehand. This also can happen when someone develops issues from a trauma that removed their limb.

Now someone who is mentally stable who for instance goes in to get augmented in the future for a job, they would more than likely not have any problem whatsoever.

>> No.28382856

>>28382816
>they would more than likely not have any problem whatsoever.
>>28382095
>People talk out of their ass all the time here.

Full circle, guys.

>> No.28382870

>>28382816
Usually or always? You just got done saying every case indicates they're mentally unstable.

And no, your conclusion makes no goddamn sense, since it's predicated upon someone being mentally unstable to begin with which is EXACTLY WHAT YOU JUST ARGUED INVALIDATES THE DATA WHAT THE FUCK

>> No.28382911

bump for pics.

>> No.28382913

>>28382870
I think you're confused Anon.

>> No.28382944

>>28371341
>MFW if someone were to fucking replace my entire body with cybernetics I probably wouldn't even fucking react beyond meh.
Is there something wrong with me /tg/?

>> No.28382969

>>28382870
C'mon, buddy, less than 10 posts ago there is a study that tells the people with psychological issues is the people who go to look for plastic surgery, therefore, disproving his conclusion ("more likely than not, they will be sane"), but anon insists on his stupid bullshit.

He is beyond reasoning and directly into laughing stock.

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