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[ERROR] No.28286895 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

TL;DR someone said chaos was grimderp so I wrote this for my group's BC game to fix that, tell me if it's shit

So /tg/, I have an incredibly talented and incredibly jaded group of veteran players, I'd call them neckbeards if they weren't so upbeat and functional but whatever, and when I can give something a new twist or present it in the right light they're one of the most fun groups to play with (and I've played with a few in my time), but therein lies the difficulty.

Gonna be some Fantasy Flight Games 40K roleplayan comin' up, and they all know the setting inside out. Quite possibly we gonna Black Crusade, and I need to polish up chaos somehow, make it more appealing. I saw a prompt in another thread about this problem and wrote a response, can you guys tell me if it's shit or if it does the job?

In return I'll dump some delicious Niel Roberts art afterward. Pic is an example. Most of you probably have it, but maybe some don't.

Postan writefaggotry.

>> No.28286912

>>28286895

>How to fix chaos grimderp?
>How to make chaos an interesting faction?

Recognize what it is, what it's a response to, and what it means for the denizens of the setting.

The warp was calm once, before the nihilistic conflicts of the elder races. Before the empty void was crossed in order to spill the blood of one's neighbors, it was a different place, an inversion of material reality - it was full where space was empty. It was a still ocean with room for life of its own, unlike the scattered life-giving suns and the lonely rocks hurtling through vacuum. The place where chaos would come to live is the opposite of an uncaring universe, it is a volume of soul-stuff that responds to the efforts of an apt mind and the proof of this is in every piece of Eldar wraithbone - it is the raw stuff that fills the warp brought into the materium by sheer willpower, which would be impossible if the warp was empty and unresponsive like the blackness between stars.

But it houses only what life puts into it - it is filled to the brim by whatever is poured from the headwater that is the material realm, and all life is a polluted stream. No ocean can forever swallow the flows of a polluted stream and remain pure.

So it was with the wars in heaven, with hatred-spurred legions assaulting the old builder race only to be faced with creatures engineered to be stumbling blocks for their lifeless vessels: unbalanced creations who would seek to make their way in the world, but whose very inner natures were problematic for them, self-defeating and poisonous.

>> No.28286928

The Orks spawned warp entities as did the Eldar, and none of these were wholesome or fair - the Eldar pantheon is a reflection of the shadowed Eldar psyche as much as it is a retelling of myth and legend, and the Ork gods speak for themselves. Orks are well adjusted to the bleak meaninglessness of the material realm; there is no point, and they do not crave one for they can simply be what they are, content to die in battle after pouring their primal urges into the warp. Eldar are not so lucky, and in building their galaxy-spanning civilization they found themselves consumed with an inner void they filled with their every obsession.

This and all the galaxy's warmongering life became a potent toxin for the warp, a poison that turned it steadily towards a hellish volume. In time it became a place where the siphoned-off torment of individuals living in the void could expand like a gas and grow thicker in its miasma-like way until no corner was untouched by it, and out of this were born the primal reflections of these base urges of disorder that partake of individual suffering even as they glorify the individual. In the meantime, a different trend arose in mundane reality.

>> No.28286985

The void of the materium was never an ideal place to make a life but civilizations nevertheless managed to arise. Their continued existence demanded inhumane sacrifice for the preservation of order, unconscionable allowances for the distribution of resources and the acquisition of territory, tyrannical repression of the individual for the sake of the group. It was ever thus, and the revolt and revulsion it brought about in the minds of those subjected to such conditions is perhaps best observed in the craftworld eldar, who have saddled their own individuality with enough punishing, obsessive sacrifice to internalize what is required for the sake of simple continuation as a civilized people. They are their own slavemasters even as their race fades away because to remove such reins is to invite their collective destruction for all the satisfaction that such freedom can bring. The choice for the eldar and many others becomes simple - be chained or live by your wits, and in this world your wits are hardly ever enough; be lost on a path carved by society and then be consumed by it, living on only for the glory of others as an ember of dying purpose.

>> No.28287003 [DELETED] 

Chaos is nothing more than the response to an ignonimious state of being. It is the price of a freedom that destroys an intolerable order, the desire all life has which undercuts its own supposed best interests, the turning away from the exchange of a sensible survival for an incredibly heavy toll - a toll always paid in blood by any civilization sufficiently ruthless to survive in a galaxy of ruthless rivals. No faith in some imagined loving God could ever turn the minds of galactic inhabitants from the bleak meaningless emptiness that arises from living in an uncaring void and the lack of restraint from bloody-handed competition that comes with such a nihilistic reality - so they birthed for themselves only a thirsting pantheon of order who work their supplicants to the bone and in exchange for an offering of flesh and of blood they give only a chance to make another such costly offering - and yet their worshipers still accept this fool's bargain and die for them in droves.

It was a willingness to pay any price that allowed the slavish and the superfluous to flourish. They bred and multiplied and filled the stars with their wretchedness, and a wretched contentment and a wretched survival they built for themselves - so a chain is wrapped around the mind of every miserable furnace-worker in the manufactories of the Imperium of Man, and a common existence arises with no greater individual hope than to be made in death a part of the very machine one has balefully toiled to maintain for all one's life, becoming a servitor among endless other servitors culled from a yet more massive number - and neither of these great hordes can make a substantive contribution with their unending suffering and toil for both are utterly dwarfed by the scale of the entire construction.

>> No.28287020

Chaos is nothing more than the response to an ignominious state of being. It is the price of a freedom that destroys an intolerable order, the desire all life has which undercuts its own supposed best interests, the turning away from the exchange of a sensible survival for an incredibly heavy toll - a toll always paid in blood by any civilization sufficiently ruthless to survive in a galaxy of ruthless rivals. No faith in some imagined loving God could ever turn the minds of galactic inhabitants from the bleak meaningless emptiness that arises from living in an uncaring void and the lack of restraint from bloody-handed competition that comes with such a nihilistic reality - so they birthed for themselves only a thirsting pantheon of order who work their supplicants to the bone and in exchange for an offering of flesh and of blood they give only a chance to make another such costly offering - and yet their worshipers still accept this fool's bargain and die for them in droves.

It was a willingness to pay any price that allowed the slavish and the superfluous to flourish. They bred and multiplied and filled the stars with their wretchedness, and a wretched contentment and a wretched survival they built for themselves - so a chain is wrapped around the mind of every miserable furnace-worker in the manufactories of the Imperium of Man, and a common existence arises with no greater individual hope than to be made in death a part of the very machine one has balefully toiled to maintain for all one's life, becoming a servitor among endless other servitors culled from a yet more massive number - and neither of these great hordes can make a substantive contribution with their unending suffering and toil for both are utterly dwarfed by the scale of the entire construction.

>> No.28287034

Even the Senate of Terra are condemned to put their shoulders against a tiller of momentous size, straining like any mere laborer, able only to feel a massive resistance from a rudder they cannot shift at will. Even the greatest of men must watch as suns ply their way through the void and catastrophic events wring reactions from the strong as easily as the weak, giving no opportunity to chart any intended course. Galaxy-spanning civilization is simply too concerned with its own enormities for any individual member to be an accomplished part of it; joining in the task of weary survival means nothing other than accepting the shackles of a superfluous existence.

>> No.28287090

Chaos is the individual's way out. It is selfish, perhaps even childish, but its single central thought is simply that it is better to burn brightly in use and accept risk of annihilation, hideous alteration, and loss of identity at one's own hand than to spend another moment slowly carving a groove into the raw material of the galaxy as a tiny pinhead's worth of groaning, suffering matter in the tooth of some gear that spins within the lightless depths of an impossibly vast construction. No price is too high for a separation from engines grown so large and pointless they build only more of themselves as they carve their way across existence in an all-consuming march of ashen continuation that does not hesitate to burn worlds and cut into the hearts of stars, its passage marked solely by graves and corpses.

What right-minded warrior would not leap onto this beast's back and seek to drive a blade into its flesh? What sane mind would not be consumed with the urge to inflict a burning hatred on this madhouse called civilization? Order is confirmed a prison with one glance at its handiwork - thus the Emperor is false because of his promise of salvation under a golden bootheel, thus the machine-priests are liars with their knowledge and its price of chains.

>> No.28287102

And so it is that the individual of sufficient strength to break from this prison and preserve himself, selfish though it may be, must surf the tides of the immaterial realm and suffer their twisting of his nature and their simplification of his understanding down to but one hateful cause, like a corpuscle of iron being shaped into the point of a spear - but at least his sea-change under these strange currents, these crucibles of ill-thought, is equal parts his own will and that of others; his follies are great, but they are much more his own than those of every exhausted, pointlessly-toiling slave; his hatred is no more reasonable than theirs, but it springs from grasping the realities of a collective lot that cannot be understood by the mewling supplicant who must suffer a life of pointless want in fear, ignorance, and venerating submission on the promise of salvation.

>> No.28287118

He may spill blood, but he can see no innocence under his blade for all is tainted with a piteous simplicity and a grey gloom; he will choose the bliss of the knife, and share an equal measure of this joy with the unearthly power that lends him strength, turning away from life of a beast of burden to blind duty.

>> No.28287130

He may spread contagion, but it is only a shorter path to a release from suffering for the weaker specimens beneath the notice of their own masters and for the strong an open door to the freedom of warp-song; to the strong he gives a hard scarification of the shell and a fever-dream for the mind to free both from the demands of a society that flays the skin from the flesh of the healthy as hard as any contagion, making of them husks with its slow deceptions where he offers the honesty of a simple poison.

>> No.28287134

He may crawl with half-blind eyes through a maze of false conspiracy, but in his efforts he will reveal the cruel underbelly and weak resolve of the shambling beast of empire, and in hastening the moment when the great keep of this dark ship snaps under its weight of hubris he will have fashioned of his thousand falsehoods a window unto a lone truth: that the prison of order is no shield for the heads of the many deckhands lying ruined, spines crushed, strength spent from bracing a false-forged keel.

>> No.28287146

He may accept into himself the baited pleasures and excesses offered by a teeming mass of sycophantic poisoners and feel kindled within himse;f the urge to inflict his lusts on unwilling multitudes, but this hook he writhes on in his sorrow and his joy is the pure distillation of existence, and unbridled experience of such inner truth is freely adjudged a better bed than the embrace of a rotten asceticism, capable only of punishment and denial of all today for the sake of the same again tomorrow in service to paranoiac self-denial.

>> No.28287162

And he will surely slay his brothers and raise his hand against them, because with the strength and folly of individual will comes the struggle with the will of another, even the will of him that shares your fever-dream to escape the same bleak and woeful order, even if the strength that spills your fellows' blood would be better turned against that order's existing incarnation - for enslavement to order is just as eternal as the struggle to topple its vileness, but the strong will that no single cause or duty can shackle is an end in itself.

>> No.28287173

March to the beat of the drums of chaos, for they are far more your own than those of him who would call himself your master.

>> No.28287184

Barter with the dark gods of chaos, for they will give you full worth for a pound of flesh and a devoted mind rather than cheat you out of strength and joy - and you would squander mind and body anyway to drive a knifepoint into the heart of your great enemy.

>> No.28287197

Alright /tg/ it's done. Dumpan art now.

>> No.28287210

>>28287197

>> No.28287235

I liked it OP. Not a Chaos man myself but it did make me realise why people would prefer it over the Imperium

>> No.28287245

>>28287197
I always wondered, how can that balcony support all this power armor?

>> No.28287278

>>28287245
Perturabo probably designed it.

>> No.28287294

First off, your writing is really superb. I think you overshot your mark though. In trying to bring chaos back into the realm of (pseudo) reason, you've added so much pathos that they read like the alter egos of an emo-metal band.

TL;DR: grimderp into emo-grimderp

>> No.28287297

>>28287278
Not Dorn?

LaughingImperialFist.jpg

>> No.28287327

>>28286895
I don't see how Chaos is Grimderp, comparatively.

If you're worried about Grimderp you wouldn't be playing a game where no race is morally upstanding, and the most "holy" race commits genocide on a regular basis for having impure genes, emotion or personality, and inventing machinery.

The Emperor is literally Hitler. or Worse, and he is considered the only one with morals.

Chaos is only grimderp because it affects human, who are already that way.

No matter how hard you try, you will not be able to remove it, as it is an integral part of the 40K setting. That's like trying to take Grimdark out of any given World of Darkness campaign.

If you want not-grimdark, you'd be playing DnD or Pathfinder, or possibly Shadowrun...

>> No.28287338

>>28287235
Thanks. Have some heresy-era art. Anything in my bullshit you didn't like or found ineffective?

>>28287245
Archaeotech concrete. They also entered peace negotiations with the stairs.

>>28287294
Thanks. I agree it can be read that way, my question is what you'd have done differently. It may be that this is impossible without bumping up against the possibility of doing that, but with a faction of emo haters full of eternal rage and just-as-planned frustration it's not like there's no reason for such a portrayal.

>> No.28287442

>>28287327
>comparatively
I'll refer you to another chunk of writefaggotry and tell you that it works okay for me in terms of making 40K into a setting where circumstances being at their worst gives rise to opportunities where people can muster their personal best and face up to the consequences of being dealt one of the worst hands conceivable with balls of steel:

That allows for a sufficient difference for me, but still leaves the common portrayal of chaos in the gutter.

>> No.28287470

>>28287442
A derp, forgot link: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus#Why_Everything_is_so_Grimdark

>> No.28287513

>> No.28287520

>>28287470
That's my fav explanation.

>> No.28287529

Chaos always starts out as rebelling against order because oppression sucks.

And then after a while those objectives fade away and the only thing you think about is...

"MURDER, RAPE, BURN!" repeatedly in your brain. Essentially killing yourself since you can no longer form thoughts and opinions of your own.

Even in freedom there is only grimdark.

>> No.28287539

>> No.28287595

>>28287529
Maybe, anon. Even probably. But if true, that just makes it more important to give the initial shift in perspective some merit, 'cause otherwise the whole thing's factored in.

My question to you is if the above writing did the job, and if not what would.

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>> No.28287704

>>28287660
Welp, found a better version in muh folder

>> No.28287714

>>28287691
That marine has a bichin' swagger

>> No.28287745

i like it

>> No.28287756

>>28287714
He pimp

>> No.28287777

>>28287745
Thanks, anon.

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>> No.28287957

>>28287297
Dorn is just a builder, while Perturabo was actual architect.

>> No.28287964

>> No.28287978

>> No.28287993

>>28287957
They're both builders.
They're both architects.
If you want to criticize Dorn, why not go with the fact that he sat around doing palace guard duty on Terra while the rest of the legions were off crusading. Sure someone had to do it, but shy him? Better than comparing the skillsets of superintelligent demigods.

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>> No.28288095

Alright, that's my Roberts art dump. Thanks for reading, folks.

>> No.28288132

>>28288095
>That one very sad looking Ork

But oi though da boss said we wuz gonna win......

>> No.28288221

>>28288132
There should be art featuring sad orks, disappointed in their WAAAAUGH and their warboss, their limbs cut off by that laughing bastard Yarrick

>> No.28288350

>>28288095
>muh feet hurt
>dis ain't no WAAAAAGH
>dem humies is loud
>I wish I had me sum more dakka
>nah I want sum more choppa

>> No.28288393

You're doing great, OP, would play with/10.

If you're trying to improve on your idea, try "selling" chaos to specific groups and/or individuals, within reasonable limits of what you believe to fit chaos. Once you have a wide variety of examples, try to find the recurring themes, the underlying patterns you may or may not have noticed. Then, draw up potential implications from those, without any specific focus. This method should help you find some more ideas.

May the spirit of Lorgar guide your steps, brother.

>> No.28288456

>>28288393
Thanks, anon. I've got to go for a few hours but I'm curious what advice you have in terms of what to avoid. I'd say 'aside from the obvious,' but I'm not sure everyone sees the obvious equally well.

>> No.28288575

Chaos is just a way of showing that all of or a majority of the sentient beings in the galaxy are the real bad guys.

>> No.28288606

>>28288456
You should definately discuss it with your group, so you won't have radically conflicting approaches to chaos. It can also be a great idea-mining opportunity.

Another thing to keep in mind is coherence. Chaos is not lolrandumb, it just has very few and simple objectives, which can be served in billions of ways. The point in chaos is not in success as you pointed out, but the effort of rebelling against the unconscionable. All the while becoming the same monster that you despise is the grimdark part, because you're simply adding to the stalemate.

Jumping from this idea, it might be a fun idea, especially with such veteran and imaginative players, to run a game based on that very idea: the Chaos Gods find themselves unable to undo the shackles the Emperor has placed upon them when he defeated Horus, thus ensuring a stalemate, based on the "if I can't win, I won't lose" attitude. The Gods share their conundrum with the group, and together send them on a quest to undo their bindings. This could result in time-travelling shenanigans, but I'll let you decide, you know what your group enjoys the most.

I'm off to bed now, see you tomorrow if the thread is still around.

>> No.28288878

>>28288013
what exactly happens in this pic?

one is roboute, the other is sanguinius

but when exactly did this happen, and more important, what is happening

>> No.28289084

>>28288878
Read The Unremembered Empire. It will make you rage.

>> No.28289108

>>28288878
It's Ultramarine wank of the worst sort. It's the cover of the Unremembered Empire, a Horus Heresy book that establishes Rowboat as willing to break away from the Imperium while the Astronomican isn't working with a WHAT A TWEEST when he stays loyal.

Synopsis from http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Unremembered_Empire_(Novel) as follows:

The unthinkable has happened – Terra has fallen to the traitor forces of Warmaster Horus! Nothing else could explain the sudden disappearance of the Astronomican's guiding light at the heart of the Imperium, or so Roboute Guilliman would believe. Ever the pragmatist, he has drawn all his forces to Ultramar and begun construction of the new empire known as Imperium Secundus. Even with many of his primarch brothers at his side, he still faces war from without and intrigue from within – with the best of intentions, were the full truth to be known it would likely damn them all as traitors for all eternity.
Far out on the Eastern Fringe, the realm of Ultramar stands alone. Having weathered the Word Bearers' attack on Calth and the subsequent Shadow Crusade against the Five Hundred Worlds, the Ultramarines primarch Roboute Guilliman now draws all loyalist forces to Macragge as he contemplates a new future for mankind. With the arrival of more and more fugitives from the war that has engulfed the rest of the galaxy, all distinction between friend and foe is lost – isolated from Terra by fearsome warp storms, is Guilliman making a bid for power to rival even the renegade Warmaster Horus?

They just can't fucking leave Guilliman alone, they have to constantly pour contrived bullshit into his backstory. Someone should've forced them to stop after the Codex and just ban the writers from doing anything more, but of course instead of favoring long-term sales these fucks go with a corner-cutting monolithic approach calling for a few characters getting the spotlight.

It's a machine for creating bigger and bigger mary sues.

>> No.28289237

>>28286895

Make the chaos angle like Lucius The Eternal would do it. All fun all the time. Word bearers and the like are all boring but slaaneshi cults are all about sensations and pleasure. I'd keep sex out but you can have a fun cocaine filled adventure where every member has his own idea of perfection and actively seeks it out. Could be really silly things. Lucius was about being the best swordsman ever but you could just as easily make a PC be all about making the most stylish kill.

I'm not a GM so I'm just babbling away, hope it gives you ideas.

>> No.28289324

>>28289237
It gives me ideas for execution, but the group's pretty keen on their ideology making sense. This is why I typed out all those words about individuality opposing order but not doing it exclusively because the individuals don't want to be consumed in an eternal struggle against an eternal tendency found in the weaklings blah blah et cetera.

Still, those are some good thoughts. Thanks, anon.

>> No.28289487

I hope someone saves that monolouge. I don't like Chaos, but it's pretty well written.

>> No.28289696

>>28287197

I really enjoyed reading that even though I play dark eldar and orks

>> No.28289768

>>28287529

Nah that's pretty much only the world eaters. They are so damn angry all the time they just stop thinking. Even kharn was described as an intelligent strategist with a good sense of humor before he went all WAAAAAAARBLEGARBLE CHOP SLICE REND KIIIIIIILLLLLL

Plenty of chaos is filled with able bodied warriors that hatch complicated schemes all the time. Which they then botch. Because they're the bad guys.

>> No.28289858

>>28289768
It's 40K, everyone botches schemes and the idea that there are any good guys at all is far from welcome by the bulk of the community save for excuses made for a pet army or two.

>> No.28289899

>>28287529

>We take Necromunda from the corrupt! The aristocrats! The oppressors of generations who have kept you down with myths of redemption and duty, and we give it back to you... the people. Necromunda is yours. None shall interfere. Do as you please. Start by storming the Precint Courthouse, and freeing the oppressed! Step forward those who would serve. For and army will be raised. The powerful will be ripped from their decadent nests, and cast out into the cold world that we know and endure. Courts will be convened. Spoils will be enjoyed. Blood will be shed. The enforcers will survive, as they learn to serve true justice. This great city... it will endure. Necromunda will survive!

>> No.28290072

>>28289858

Yeah I know, I didn't mean it like that. Chaos wants to absorb the material universe so they are sort of "the bad guys" to the setting as the setting would seize to exist if they won. Hell, it would be like the current model lines except with CSM and chaos variants of models instead of space marines.

>> No.28290164

>>28287294
It's not exactly that. You've exalted it like a guy who just discovered anarchism on /pol/. It's enthusiastic, enjoyable, attractive and it hides mutations and tentacle rape.

Which is totally acceptable actually. Chaos is way less oppressive than anything else in the galaxy. Sure it is evil and it kills and all that jazz, but at least it's honest about that. It's not a giant 1984 bullshit, nor an caste system.

My take is your writefaggotry would be something written by an undercover alpha legion cultist written to stir shit up in a hive city.

>> No.28290355

>>28287294

I think it is rather well written and an enjoyable read. It also explains why people would turn to chaos and just how cruel the Imperium really is. I really don't see the emo-metal band element you bring up.

I envision what you suggest something more along the lines of:

"I like to kill. Killing is fun. I am evil so I think killing is fun. I kill so I am very evil."

What the writer seems to say is "If you have the choice between dying as a slave and dying as a slave, wouldn't you rather pick the side that actually rewards success" which is a sensible way of seeing things in my opinion.

>> No.28290544

>>28290164
I did try to maintain an air of childlike wonder and zealous enthusiasm, but largely this was meant to be written from an out-of-universe perspective for all its moments of being a sermon that praises the behavior of a character.

There's not really an attempt to hide the brutality in there, it's just I didn't think anyone was unaware of them so I focused on the reason for the sheer degree of brutality and how it might be justified with an eye to the justification of what it opposes.

>>28290355
I appreciate you sharing that, it's good to know how it reads.

I wouldn't knock that other anon's opinion, though. It's too easy to respond with a quip about how people who think 40K/animu/[insert geek hobby here] is all about rage/sadness/emo are bad and they should feel bad except we know that emotion isn't available to them, but the thing is a lot of the rationalizations of behavior in 40K start with an emotional response to something, primal or otherwise.

Pathos is also the quality that evokes sympathy, so the fact that we've got people feeling sorry for chaos rather than feeling they're not worth any consideration may be better than nothing. Empathy is better and an appreciation for the sacrifice and the willingness to spend themselves to live as they wish might be best of all, but the setting just doesn't easily allow cerebral focus on anything except the idea of dying for one's ideals and suffering being inherent to the human condition.

Anyway maybe I'll post some more writefaggotry sometime or let you guys know how the game goes. But more thoughts are welcome. Fucking thing probably needs yet another draft.

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