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28017226 No.28017226 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

I wonder how did Gondor deal with the orc refugees seeking asylum?

>> No.28017714
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With a short drop and a sudden stop.

>> No.28017754

It is said that Tolkien orcs can make small kingdoms just fine, you know like small organised tribes

>> No.28017820
File: 26 KB, 223x223, 1375089855077.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

mah nigga

>> No.28017899

In his later writings Tolkien expressed a sort of regret and pity for the orcs.

Also, there is a chapter of Return Of The King where Samwise says something about how sad it would be to be a Southron or Easterling living under the thumb of the dark lord, uninterrupted for centuries with nothing like Gondor, Arnor or the elves of Lindon to step it and keep him from treating you like his favorite fucktoy.

So yeah, basically Tolkien though you should probably feel sorry for them. Poor bastards never had a chance. Maybe it could have turned out ok for them if they'd escaped to something better.

It's important to consider that even if a creature was an accident of nature, it didn't necessarily have to end badly. The Dwarves weren't a part of Illuvatar's plan at all, they were created without his consent, but in the end they were loved and looked after in their own way. It could have ended up like that with the Orcs, I suppose.

The real trouble has more to do with the generally larger problem that the Valar were willing to sit back and watch centuries of heartbreaking atrocities go on in Middle Earth. Their interventions typically came late, after great tragedy had occurred.

>> No.28017996

Orcs are wild creatures and nomads. Cities and humans make them uncomfortable. It would not have happened. Also Sauron had total control over the Orcs. Poor creatures, manipulated to serve a crule leader with magic and force. Who knows what lies they told them to make them fight.

>> No.28018018

>re to do with the generally larger problem that the Valar were willing to sit back and watch centuries of heartbreaking atrocities go on in Middle Earth. Their interventions typically came late, after great tragedy had occurre


>> No.28018027

>Who knows what lies they told them to make them fight.

They probably got the truth right up front. Disobedience hurts.

>> No.28018031

I imagine they killed them all. As a powerhouse of the military-industry complex in Middle-Earth, Gondor is unlikely to be welcoming to its exploited labour and targeted 'Other'.

They might have let some small groups of Orcs escape in order to sell more weapons and enforce their fascist control.

>> No.28018071

the orcs probably fled to Gondor's border and bad lands, they had lived in places like that since before Sauron united

>> No.28018120

I dunno, how many worthless soviet atheists fled to glorious America?

Most of the degenerates just sold out to the mafia and further despoiled their own country, Iimagine it was the same with Orcs. Having no culture, inferior technology, and inherently weak societal worldviews, they were fit only to ne assimilated and forgotten.

>> No.28018136
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Honestly I'm glad this got brought up.

I recently re-read the Silmarillion. In my first readthrough, the War of Wrath seemed like this great cathartic resolution to the first age.

This time around, I had a very different sense of it. I mean, Valinor waited around until after Dorthonion, Dor Lomin, Nargothrond, Doriath and Gondolin had fallen. They waited until the death of most of the descendents of Fingolfin, Finarfin, Feanor, Thingol, Haleth, Hador and Beor had all died HORRIBLY.

I mean... yeah... great. They came in and defeated Morgoth. But what good did it do? There was practically nobody left to save. They were all dead. Morgoth had basically done his worst with no objection from the west.

>> No.28018146

Well, look how the dwarves handled it. Slain every last one of them.

>> No.28018152

Wasn't their technology superior? Wasn't that the one of the reasons the orcs were such a threat?

>> No.28018167

>Well, look how the dwarves handled it. Slain every last one of them.
Got that right.

The Dwarves are actually responsible for a lot of the brunt and victory of the war.

Firstly they eradicated entire nations of goblins from the misty mountains during the War of the Dwarves and Goblins, who had still never recovered by the third age (remember Moria? Imagine that, but EVERYWHERE on the misty mountaints). Had they not done that, you'd have countless goblins pouring out of there and the war would've been lost.

Then there was the War in the North. Even if Sauron's forces in Gondor or even Morder was defeated, he had still sent an army of easterlings to conquer the north. All that stood in there way was Erebor. Had they lost, accoridng to Gandalf:
>". . .things might have gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles in Dale and the valour of Durin's Folk."
>"Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash"

They were basically the eastern front.

>> No.28018173


They killed the shit out of them.

>> No.28018183

The orcs were the only race, other than the dwarves, to be industrially geared.
They helped Saruman set up Isengard into a powerhouse, Mordor even developed an efficient system of rank and number for the countless masses.

But Dwarves had the best tech.

>> No.28018441

I think that this was supposed to be adressed in the following Tolkien novel (never finished)

>> No.28018465


>> No.28019163


>> No.28019260
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I support this message.

>> No.28020204
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>> No.28020228

>I wondor how did Gondor...

That's poetry, man, like, beautiful poetry...

>> No.28020264

Pretty sure the orcs established their own kingdom in southern Mordor (the part that's actually hospitable) with Aragorn's blessing.

>> No.28020268

Elves and Dwarves made better quality, but could not into the Orcs' sheer quantity. Men who set up friendly relations with Orcs (which happens post-war, albeit rarely) likely adapt industrialization for use in the rest of society after the Elves mostly bugger out.

>> No.28020367
File: 495 KB, 785x537, Erebor_gate.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Indeed, the dwarves did one hell of a job but doesn't get enough credit for it. Hell getting the ball rollling which lead to the death of Smaug was their doing too. Imagine Smaug around during the war of the ring and no Erebor. The North would be in some deep shit.

>> No.28020569
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I always thought one of the neatest excerpts from the Lord of the Rings trilogy was the part in the Return of the King where Sam infiltrates an Orc encampment trying to rescue frodo. It's one of the few times orcs get any significant amount of dialogue or attention, and what really struck me was the way they acted.

They weren't evil caricatures. Sure, they weren't nice people, but they felt like people. In fact, more to the point, they felt like *soldiers.* They were tired of the war, tired of having to follow orders, tired of how much their lives sucked and their food rations were shit. But they knew they didn't have a choice, that the only thing to do was complete their duty and look out for number 1 as best as possible.

They were spiteful and angry because their lives sucked and they wanted to get back at *something.* They demonstrated a measure of loyalty to their immediate comrades and unit, and distaste for an Orc who politicks and curries favor by being extra kiss-ass to the Eye in order to advance himself at the expense of his fellow Orc.

It really made me feel like if they'd had the chance, they could have been decent enough people. They just never had a chance, because their lives were full of misery and shit and cruelty bound in inescapable service to the greatest evil of their time. Even if they could have deserted, they're still screwed, because everyone else hates Orcs to the point of "kill on sight."

Orcs hate everybody not because they're innately evil and hateful, but because everybody else hates them. If you get a puppy and spend every moment of his growing days kicking him, when the puppy grows up it's going to hate you and take every opportunity it can to bite you or shit on your lawn.

>> No.28020830

Yes! I felt exacly the same way! I would love to read more of that but only got my hands of this awful The Last Ringbearer, it is bad beyond words.

>> No.28020862

Good point

>> No.28020892

They were corrupted Elves so the Elves hated them, so rest the races hated them as well. Not like they had a choice, all their leaders were thralls to the BBEG. Goblin King in Hobbit didn't seem too bad. Also ever notice the goblins/orcs in The Hobbit were more interesting than the LOTR main characters? Gollum was best character, besides Gandalf.

>> No.28020910

Actaully, I'd imagine the far east might be more kind to the orcs.

>> No.28020952 [DELETED] 

Fantasy Hipsters

>> No.28021109 [DELETED] 

Fantasy shitposter

>> No.28021143

I doubt orcs would seek asylum, they would probably just group into war bands and prey off of anything weaker, including smaller warbands.

There's no shortage of places for them to be orky.

>> No.28021163

>angry bill bailey.jpg

>> No.28021198


They were absolutely horrible, however. They were murderers and cannibals and all that shit. There was so much inherent evil in them, they just had to use it up.

The world's a better place without them in it.

>> No.28021260

>Goblin King in Hobbit didn't seem too bad.
you mean besides the fact that he slaughtered the shit outta the dwarfs?

>Gollum was best character, besides Gandalf.
kinda, but Gollum wasn't an Orc.

>> No.28021401


>Orcs hat everybody not because they're innately evil and hateful

Yes they do, actually.

>> No.28021765

Sure, but the world isn't black and white, there's plenty of grey too.

>> No.28021932
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>you mean besides the fact that he slaughtered the shit outta the dwarfs?
What? He didn't kill a single dwarf of Thorin and co, he got his home invaded and got killed in his own house/cave. Fucking rude ass Gandalf and dwarves!

All the Goblin King wanted was to rule his kingdom in peace, sing songs and dance! Such a misunderstood soul.

>> No.28021964


No they are actually pure evil. They're made by corrupting another race (hinted to have been elves) into a profane form. They're literally made using evil itself. If we're talking about orcs in general then sure, they can be good, but Tolkeins orcs (which the OP specifically mentioned) are naturally bad.

>> No.28022015

They were made by corrupting a good race, yes, but there's no actual indication that this makes them born towards evil--it might just make them ugly, strong, and easy to manipulate.

>> No.28022025

Except for the fact that orcs are just elves who have been mistreated.
Elves are not innately evil, so orcs aren't either.

>> No.28022039

But the fact of the matter is, they sat around on their asses because all of the elves that bitched out to Middle Earth basically followed Feanor's speech of "I'd rather die in the wilderness fighting to get my jewelry back from Morgoth and stab the faggot in the eye than sit here at the feet of the Valar in perfect obeisance while they stifle our growth as a people".

And Morgoth ... well, Morgoth was a Valar that clearly didn't practice self-control. After he broke all the shit like the lanterns and ended the Springtime of Arda, the rest of the Valar basically acted like frustrated pet owners with a bad dog. "Oh fuck it, let him tear up the yard, just don't let the little shit in the house."

>> No.28022129

well, true. they did sleep on their enrtyway, and me, I would kick out anyone sleeping ont my fucking door.

>> No.28022191

The original stock of orcs weren't just "mistreated elves". Morgoth wanted to create, as Eru did when he made men and elves, or when Aule made the 7 fathers of the dwarves. He wanted someone who would worship him in his own world, as the elves did the rest of the Valar in Valinor.

But Morgoth cannot create anything, he can only cause chaos, and twist and warp that which is already created. After he fucked up the perfection of the original Arda because he's a child who throws temper tantrums, he kidnapped elves who had awoken on the shores of Cuiviénen. Through torture and mutilation, he twisted them into orcs, a cruel (and somehow true-breeding, despite there being no documentation of female orcs) reflection of what they once were.

When Sauron was destroyed and Barad-Dur thrown down, the entirety of Mordor's forces were wiped out. Any orcs left in the east or north basically fled to the mountains and hid, and were never a real threat afterwards.

>> No.28022240

Ah, I remember watching that as a kid. Sweet, sweet nostalgia.

>> No.28022314


>how did genocidists deal with refugees from their genocide.

>> No.28022508

Freaking hobo-dwarves, they come in sleep on your damn door stop. Refuse to leave, then they break into your home and kill you and your family after signing. Bunch of assholes.

>> No.28022622

need a good Bonegrinding they do. or a manglin'
filthy hobo dwarfs!

>> No.28022717

How about this: orcs aren't "born", they're twisted aberrations crafted from earth, bile, and the power of the creator, in this case either Morgoth or Sauron. We never saw a female orc, and why? Because that's not how they're created. They're "crafted" at orc foundries, sealed with a fragment of their creator.

There. We dehumanised orcs some more and now they're basically battle droids. Destroy them with impunity.

>> No.28022752


But orcs weren't made. Morgoth couldn't create, only twist and profane.

>> No.28022766

They couldn't be made with free will or souls or individual sapience. They could, however, be filled with fragments of Morgoth's own power and animated thus.

>> No.28022778


Thats probably what the propaganda pamphlets the elves hand out to their human lackeys say. how much it relates to the facts, we cant say.

captcha: slanders illturi

captcha knows whas up.

>> No.28022837

Orcs are engineers and constructors
cities are their bread and butter

>> No.28023119

That's right dude, no wonder orcs hate em

>> No.28023502


>"But the fact of the matter is, they sat around on their asses because all of the elves that bitched out to Middle Earth basically followed Feanor's speech"

Except that's not really true. The Sons of Feanor certainly earned the indifference of the valar, but most of the noldor acted more Nobly.

Consider this. The followers of Finrod Felagund did not take any part in the Kinslayings. They continued to middle earth out of solidarity and love for their kinfolk. Finrod Felagund founded the great kingdom of Nargothrond, and the Valar did NOTHING when Nargothrond fell.

Most of the Elves of middle earth weren't Noldor at all. They were mostly Sindar and Nandor and Avari, elves who had never even been to valinor because they became lost or frightened on the first journey. Their greatest kingdom was in the forest of Doriath. And... the valar did nothing when Doriath was sacked. Twice.

And then there are the men. Three noble houses of the children of illuvatar, Hador, Haleth and Beor, were almost completely exterminated by morgoth. These were children of Illuvatar who had NEVER done anything to spite the valar AT ALL.

So, I really don't think it holds water that the withheld help from middle earth to spite the Noldor, a minority of the populace. Basically, Tolkien wrote a cosmology where the divine powers are real, they somewhere far off and they'll let senseless evil happen for no reason at all.

Seriourly, fuck the valar.

>> No.28023632

The problem is, in the beginning, or before the beginning, the Music of Ainur is ruined by Melkor/Morgoth. Eru then throws a hissy fit and decides that the music should come to pass and throws the Valar and Ainur into the world that was born out of the ruined music, WITH ALL THEIR ACTIONS AND ENTIRE HISTORY PREDESTINED BY THE SAID MUSIC. (This is of course meant to parallel the Original Sin Paradox, ie. God creates Man knowing that he will fall and then commits suicide in order to redeem Man, which supposedly has free will even though the omniscient God knows everything beforehand.)

So the Valar just sit back and enjoy the ride, but of course, are unaware that this was planned all along. Of course, Eru then disrupts the pattern by introducing Men (and Hobbits, who by the lore are just another human race), who are then supposed to act like some sort of Mule/Kwisatz Haderach/The Chosen One and break the cycle or something - to the point that even the Valar do not know where Men's souls go in the afterlife and what fate awaits them.

>> No.28023955


Orc Jesus, when?

>> No.28024094

Slain by an elf.

>> No.28024105

Elven Herod was better at his job.

>> No.28024124



>> No.28024157
File: 72 KB, 400x394, Rivendell1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Quick, drive it out with this!

>O! Where are you going,
>With beards all a-wagging?
>No knowing, no knowing
>What brings Mister Baggins,
>And Balin and Dwalin
>Down into the valley
>In June
>Ha ha!

>> No.28024188

>The Dwarves weren't a part of Illuvatar's plan at all, they were created without his consent, but in the end they were loved and looked after in their own way. It could have ended up like that with the Orcs, I suppose.

Way different.

Dwarves were created by the angel of autism and tinkering.

Orcs were deliberately corrupted to be fucking, murdering, rape machines.

They had no chance.

>> No.28024222

Orcs probably stayed in their own lands which remained shitholes.

The West probably killed any orcs they found in their land because orcs are barbaric violent savages that cannot be coexisted with.

Men of the south and the east probably just remained primitive but got less dickish without Sauron's influence, hopefully.

>> No.28024235

As Middle-Earth is in fact meant to be ancient Europe, I would guess the orcs fled to the east, intermarrying with the humans of that area and giving modern Orientals their goblin-like appearance.

>> No.28024398

truly the songs of the elves are wondrous things...

>> No.28024405
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What is the lifespan of an orc? Do they die of old age?

>> No.28024409

>Seriourly, fuck the valar.

Don't blame them. They can't comprehend evil.

Plus they knew that if they acted, they risked destroying the entire world, considering what happened the first time they captured Morgoth. They were right too. The War of Wrath sunk Beleriand beneath the ocean.

They only acted when they knew there was nothing to lose by acting.

>> No.28024468

Problem is, Western Kingdoms did not simply coexist with just about _anyone_, not just Orcs. It is outright stated in the Appendices that kings Elessar and Eomer promptly started a series of wars against Harad and Rhûn so REMOVE KEBAB, REMOVE YOGURT, etc.

>> No.28024470


And the 4Chan image bug comes up with something worse than orcs. Kudos, Moot!

>> No.28024479

stop please
you are causing me physical pain

>> No.28024496

Well, can't fault them for it. Harad and Rhun DID invade the shit out of the west.

>> No.28024517
File: 9 KB, 284x264, 1382817805417.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>someone posts CP in /b/
>gets switched with your image

>> No.28024527

Nothing like a neckbeard with a sword trying to look badass. I remember back in my L5R CCG days there was a guy who liked to pose with his katana collection, we started calling him the Butter Samurai. The best thing was when it spread outside of our group and into the greater L5R community, the guy was completely puzzled when people started calling him Butters.

>> No.28024611

"It's short for butterbars! You know, like in the military! People look up to you like an officer!"

>> No.28024648

lol'd, I think they put that 'glitch' in on purpose or something; seems like most post switches are with mlp specifically.

>> No.28024683
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Why didn't Sauron just introduce leftist ideology into Gondor?

Then they would've just imported orcs and easterlings by the boatload.

>> No.28024782
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Tolkien didn't understand how Communist subversion tactics worked. Nobody did, at the time. That's why it worked.

>> No.28024807

Is that image real

>> No.28024825

>reminder that euphoric was a real quote

>> No.28024828
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>> No.28024845
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Da zog?

I never meant to post this.

>> No.28024894

Some of the stories in the appendicies of the Lord of the Rings indicates that orcs are capable of living for centuries, but most don't. Azog had been kicking around for a long time before getting beheaded.

>> No.28024926

I think Orcs reproduce via homosex when two orcs, it don't matter which, get the urge they fuck. They both become preggers, and in one month they burst open and 50 little ones pop out from each parent. Most end up dying, but enough survive. The fact they're immortal, means they quickly become overpopulated.

>> No.28024940

This seems like as good a place as any to ask. Orcs were corrupted elves, trolls were corrupted ents, so what did Morgoth turn into dragons? They have to be more than just twisted beasts because they are demonstrably intelligent.

>> No.28024966

I don't know what CIDF is.

>> No.28024971

Morgoth didn't make everything. Didn't make Ungoliant, after all.

she was Tom's ex

>> No.28025000

>moot in charge of keeping 4chan running

>> No.28025028

Christian Internet Defense Force would be my guess.

>> No.28025038

Oh my god
Please tell me this isn't real

>> No.28025058

I guess Christian Internet Defence Force?

>> No.28025068

It's a blindfold kick-back type of post
Called the 4chan image shuffle
Whereas they post this and you post that
Into the 4chan image shuffle
It's a they-think you-think you don't know
Type of boardglitch jimmy rustle
Where you take your time
Wait your turn
And hang them up, and out to dry.

>> No.28025072

>Annnd reinforcing negative stereotypes here we go dfghdgnd.
>(fyi brony motto: Love and tolerate the fuck out of you. Not threaten people with swords!)

>It's a joke!
>I just had that photo of me and I just wanted to make a quick image about how I hate it when people insult us.

>> No.28025179

This has actually happened to me, except it was questionable jailbait and nothing hardcore.

My permaban got rescinded 3 days later without me having to appeal it.

>> No.28025323


And over on a beta thread, someone is arguing if the orc you posted is alpha or not.

>> No.28025534

Yargh, this be b8 m8ty

>> No.28026931

Nice. No idea if that's original or you're referencing a song or commercial or something, but that was enjoyable either way.

>> No.28028018


>> No.28029165
File: 105 KB, 650x488, Nausicaa-of-the-Valley_of_the-Wind-wallpaperxx.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Fun fact, one of the ideas Miyazaki originally thought of for Nausicaa was from Tolkiens Orcs.

"I felt the same thing when I read Lord of the Rings -goblins and demons are much more interesting than elves. Glittering elves modeled on white-centric ideals were not nearly as interesting as the loathsome, short-legged creatures that all looked the same regardless of gender and moved around with all the tools they owned strapped to them, hated and feared by everyone. I wondered what it would be like to make a movie with them as the main characters. From that perspective, what would elves look like..."

-From the Nausicaa watercolor impressions art book

He was making Nausicaa the "Ghoul Queen" of her tribe. Although he ended scrapping most of it, it's still interesting.

>> No.28029304

So basically, LOTR Orcs are the Red Army of fantasy?

>> No.28031083

Orcs were stand-ins for WWI grunts. Leaders have no respect for them and think nothing of spending thousands of lives for a minor objective. I'll have to find the exact quote, but Tolkien himself said something like "In the trenches, we were all orcs."

>> No.28031233
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>> No.28031699

You know, I've always thought of orcs having more in common with humans than any other fantasy race.

>> No.28032258

PTerry had his Discworld orcs be the equivalent of Warhammer 40k Space Marines High regeneration abilities because of some extra organ symbiont, extremely intelligent and capable of overseeing the battlefield, almost as strong as a troll, highly resistant to poison and diseases

The reason why Discworld orcs have been almost wiped out is because their creators, the Evil Empire, was extremely brilliant in eugenics, but sucked at every aspect of war - their orcs had no equipment, were rounded up in no formation and thrown against the enemy in senseless attack waves, and were whipped into attacking.

>> No.28032281

>I wonder how did Gondor deal with the orc refugees seeking asylum?
they didn't because that issue never came up...

>> No.28032315

And Uruk-Hai are tanks stand-ins. No propose for existence other than war

>> No.28032332

So he just likes how they looked and completely ignored the fact they were fucking monsters that had a hard time separating killing and eating.

>> No.28032368

That is exactly what he stated, a preference found in the varying aesthetic designs Tolkien described.
Should we reiterate this some more?

>> No.28032401


>> No.28032451
File: 107 KB, 232x196, 1379584116422.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

What's it like to be this mad?

>> No.28032477

>"I felt the same thing when I read Lord of the Rings -goblins and demons are much more interesting than elves.

He's taking his preference for their appearance and proclaiming it makes them better characters.
I dislike this attitude, the races and characters are all part of the story. You shouldn't just pick your favorite aspects of certain things and dismiss everything else.
He dislikes Elves because of their ideals and general perfection in form and function. But only praises Orc appearance. You like Tolkien Orcs, then you have to take the package deal of the horrifying shit they do.

>> No.28032519

I thought this was /tg/ not /b/. Behave yourself.
I wouldn't say I'm mad, maybe a little upset. I don't like seeing other peoples stories picked apart and have aspects ignored because of headcanon.

>> No.28032546

self evidently you do not, or he wouldn't have been able to take only the parts he liked.

>> No.28032642

Why limit interpretation?
Considering that it was in Miyazaki's interests to create an allusion with the Tolkien Orcs' appearance as a theme for his own works, do there need to be further interfering factors?
Should we dislike one attribute found in an instance, because the entity it is found in possesses a less favorable one?

Also I don't think that excerpt made an outright statement on what you claim to have been his point of view on Orcs as they are in Tolkien's works, though I can't really say what Miyazaki's stance on the subject was. Just gave me the general feeling of him having an interest in the ways their descriptions appealed to him. Which only makes to me, sense considering the man's intentions with them.

>> No.28032679
File: 23 KB, 430x334, mon visage.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Which only makes to me, sense
Fuck it. I'll just go and coffee, drink.

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