/tg/ - Traditional Games

Hey uh, does anyone know how your body might get messed up if you were, say, flying through the air at 90 meters/second and then touched the ground? What kind of wounds would that deliver in real life and in Riddle of Steel terms? Hypothetically speaking of course.

I wonder if the Burdinadin living in the mountains study astronomy away from spiritual pollution or something similar.

Also, Jimmy, is there going to be any Tattered Realms stuff released in or alongside the Halloween beta thing?

>>27900899
You ever see a guy who touched an angle grinder?
That wherever the touching happened.

>>27900899
That'd be like getting thrown off a motorcycle and hitting the pavement at 201mph. So... bad.

>>27900899
Ever seen pics of traffic accident victims? People who got thrown out of the wind-shield, skidded across the pavement for a while and finally wrapped themselves around a lamppost? Loosing a few limbs or half their body in the process?

They probably weren't going 30m/s when they hit the tarmac.

>>27900899

>>27901105
So even at a third of the speed, a person is liable to get pretty trashed?

>>27901358
90m/s is 201 mph. So a third of the speed is 67mph. So, uh... yeah. Sounds about right, actually.

>>27901358
In much the same way that ground beef is a pretty trashed cow.

>>27900236
>tfw no more ink
I would love to do some black letter for you guys. Maybe I'll go get some more ink tonight.

Damn, I was too late for last thread's spear dump.

>>27903087
Kikuchi yari always fascinated me in the "why" department.

It first glance they seem like a poor idea. They don't penetrate as well as other spearheads and there are better cutting polearms out there. But I'm pretty sure their purpose is just to be a poor man's naginata.

>>27904350
To be honest, I think they're better for thrusting than most other yari I've seen. The Japanese seem to have had trouble understanding the idea that you need a POINT on a spear head; most yari I've seen have these silly rounded tips on their heads that look like they'd be absolutely useless at armor penetration.

>>27904629
You must not be looking at all that many yari, then.

Your pic, for example, is not a standard head by any means.

>>27904971
I only really learned what a yari was from Shogun 2, and I saw those spears all had heads like that one but four times as long. They look like weird stage props.

>>27905056
That's because they're probably based on weird stage props. A lot of what we imagine as "medieval Japanese" comes from the Edo era; which was an era when the arts flourished.
Ninjas wear black pajamas because kabuki stagehands wear back pajamas. That's the whole of it.

>>27904971
Looks fairly standard to me. Here's another example of a yari head with a fat point.

>>27905380
Nah, they're accurate. It's just that that guy is underestimating the utility of the yari's tip; even with the broader point it's still plenty good at finding weak spots in armor to stab through.

>>27905458
What I find most striking about yari is that they've all got tips like chisels. Haven't seen anything like it elsewhere.

>>27905591
There are a FEW with more sharp tips, but not many. I too wonder why. It's not like armor wasn't prevalent on the battlefield.

>>27905627
Were they designed to be swung as well as thrust?

>>27905722
Probably, I'm not exactly knowledgeable in sojutsu.

>>27904629
>>27905627
You're grossly underestimating the tip's ability to puncture armor. You don't need a needle point to pierce armor, it was more effective, yes, but it wasn't the only way. Note how most yari heads actually resemble swords, which are capable of piercing armor with a strong enough thrust.
The very tip of the yari was more than enough to begin a puncture, push through, and cause a significant wound, and like all polearms you could get a good degree of power behind the thrust.
The shape lent a great degree of sturdiness, too, and allowed for cuts as well as thrusts.
It was like having a short sword on a pole, and had a good deal of utility beyond a standard "thrust only" spear.

The variety of yari heads also gave a number of offensive and defensive options, like the juumonji yari here theoretically was useful for parrying and controlling an enemy's weapon, hooking and tripping or dismounting an enemy, or even still getting in a wound in on a near missed thrust.

If you're really that worried about armor piercing ability there is also the sankaku yari, which was a sturdier head with a triangular cross section and more of a tip, which was your armor piercer, but didn't have an edge for cutting.

Yari were very utilitarian spears.

>>27906140
>Note how most yari heads actually resemble swords, which are capable of piercing armor with a strong enough thrust.
>swords, which are capable of piercing armor with a strong enough thrust

>>27906250
Know what else is capable of piercing armor with a strong enough thrust? Literally any matter.

Swords are made for cutting and that's just what they do. Thrusting with a sword is an admission that you are a retard and that your foes should kill you quickly to raise the average IQ level of the human race.

>>27906250
Hey everybody, look at this faggot that has no idea what he's talking about try to claim someone else was wrong!

>>27906313
yeah go ahead and try stabbing any sword through non-butted mail or plate armor and see how that works for you

>>27906303
>Thrusting with a sword is an admission that you are a retard and that your foes should kill you quickly to raise the average IQ level of the human race.
So was your post.

>>27906351
Never heard of half swording, huh?

>>27906351
What is an Estoc, Trebek?

>>27906402
Not used for stabbing through armor.

>>27906406
Something used to stab at parts of the body not protected by armor.

>>27906351
Half-swording.

>>27906430
Aw shit I forgot what today was

>>27906430
If they were intended to stab through the parts of the body not protected by armor, why would they have a narrow shink-tip instead of a spatulate one?

>>27906430
Funny, SoS threads usually aren't filled with people who don't know what they're talking about.

>>27906447
See >>27906430

>>27906449
Because a wider tip means a larger chance of hitting a place protected by armor, draining energy from your strike. Duh.

>>27906471
Saw it, and its wrong, what's your point?

>>27906449
Because the parts of the body not protected by armour would probably be protected by mail?

If you look at arrowheads designed to actually PENETRATE plate, they're not bodkins - they're lozenges. Very blunt and wide and angular, and then the following shaft is quite narrow by comparison. Designed for maximum penetration through plate.

Needle-like designs are better for mail.

>>27906449
Have you ever looked at a suit of European plate in your life?

>>27906462
And yet here you are! Funny, isn't it?

>>27906486
>Because the parts of the body not protected by armour would probably be protected by armour?
Want to try that again?

>>27906483
Aw, you're just precious. Babby's first retardation.

>>27906493
Wow.

I'll be back later when the kids have gone to bed and we can have intelligent discussions again.

>>27906516
>I do not recognise the material differences between mail and plate

Now I'm actually confused.

>>27906486
Wait, there ARE arrows designed to penetrate plate? Like, tested to do such? Can you hook me up with a source?

ITT People thinking others are serious when they spout obviously wrong information

>>27906556
Sorry, isn't the entire point of this the ludicrous claim that no sword can thrust through mail?

Because that's where this came from. You can follow the quote chain back.

>>27906547
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, child.

This is some high-quality trolling going on here.

>>27906583
Dude, it's been TESTED. Mail that's actually properly made (riveted, not butted) is largely impervious to being pierced by a thrust.

>>27906594
>calling someone else a child
My sides are in orbit.

>>27906571
Eh, I figure there's no harm in asking for a source.

>>27906616
Largely, but certainly not entirely. I saw the MyArmoury tests too, the mail was pierced by several of the weapons. An estoc would definitely be able to do it, it's perfectly designed for it.

>>27906616
Dude, it's been TESTED. Thrust points that're actually properly made are largely incapable of being stopped by mail.


That's enough of this faggotry.

>>27906571
>>27906613
Making a completely wrong statement and insisting on being right is by far the easiest way to troll a gathering of people with knowledge about a subject.

>>27906680
I've never seen a blade of any sort manage to penetrate mail that wasn't butted with a thrust.

>>27906685
Then stop posting it.

You know how I deal with a troll, lads? CALL FOR A HOPLITE DUMP

>>27906569
Here are some lozenge-shaped arrowheads.

They work a lot like hole punches, really. Good ones make neat little square-shaped holes in plate armour. If the head is wide enough, the shaft can slip into the hole freely, giving it good penetration.

>>27906730
As for this whole penetrating-through-mail argument people are having, some guy did a very good test on MyArmoury recently where he did test cuts against different thicknesses of cloth jack, as well as a high-quality reproduction of mail. Narrow points can and do burst mail links. They struggle with the jack underneath, though.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131

>>27906748

>>27906757
Huh. Those are DISTURBINGLY similar in shape to the head on a sankaku-yari.

>>27906730
You first. You claim to have tests that prove your claims, so post the tests.

>>27906775
You got any of those helmets that are basically "We've been wearing the Corinthian helmet wrong as a fashion thing for a while now, why not just make it so that you can have that look while wearing the helmet normally?"

>>27906790
Exactly why I found the tips so striking. They are, theoretically, very well-suited for going through plate. I'm curious if they can actually do it or not.

>>27906757
>They work a lot like hole punches, really. Good ones make neat little square-shaped holes in plate armour. If the head is wide enough, the shaft can slip into the hole freely, giving it good penetration.
Exactly how a lot of yari heads work.

>>27906790
Yes, because they both work by the same principal.

Also pic related is a su yari, the "standard" yari head. Note how its not anything like >>27904629

>>27906852

>>27906852
>We've been wearing the Corinthian helmet wrong as a fashion thing
How does that work?

>>27906874
Here's some more, some with broader heads, some without.

>>27906757
Coincidentally, while we're on this topic.

>A good mail-penetrator is shaped like an awl.
>A good padded cloth-penetrator is a cutting edge.
>A good plate-penetrator is shaped like a chisel or lozenge.

This is why it's so effective to layer up armour. You can design a blade to counter one or two of these things, but not all three.

>>27906920
Around the mid-6th century, it was so common for hoplites to wear their helmets up on top of their heads (for vision, beathing, etc) that they started making helmets that had that aesthetic, but could only be worn that way.

They had little eyeholes and nasals modeled in them that are too small and diminished to be used by an actual human.

>>27906920
Like this.

>>27906920
Take a look at dude number 1 in >>27906899. Somewhere along the line it became fashionable to wear a Corinthian helmet tilted back on your head.

>>27906974
>>27906982
Well look at that, I learned something new today.

What a silly way to wear a helmet.

>>27906982

>>27907030
Better than some gayass dick-tip-shaped corinthian.

>>27907047

>>27907175
Fuck yeah, pre-Marian Republican Romans.

>>27907175
I think that man is dying of scurvy

>>27907030
Ever worn a face covering helm? Even my hardened leather boffer sport corinthian gets hot to wear, and while resting I would tip it back.

Also, pic related also pick related dohoho

>>27907175
>my feet hurt
>the war is too loud
>i wish i was at home with my goats

>>27907175

>>27907273
Actually, while we're looking at Romans, I recommend people read a paper called "Roman Soldiers in Open Order: Polybius 18.30 and the Visual Evidence".

Apparently, Romans didn't fight in tight-knight ranks like HBO's Rome would have us believe. They were quite loosely arranged.

>>27907318
There was a discussion on this a while back, around the time Rome 2 had come out and people were heavily annoyed by the tendency of units to blob up in combat.

Can we get some pictures of actual Italo-Corinthian helmets and not just illustrations?

>>27907318

Polybius wrote about middle-Republic Roman armies, not post-Marian reform Roman armies.

>>27907355
People forget how much space is required in large-scale melee combat. There's still discussion over how widely-spaced hoplites were, for example.

>>27907393
Tada!

>>27907424
Did the Marian reforms affect formations?

>>27907458
>Tada!
That's just a regular old greek-style Corinthian.

>>27907458

Yes. Changed the entire army from maniple-based to cohort-based. Marius changed almost everything, and his changes pre-dated Caesar, so Rome the show had it right.

>>27907484
Yes - ON AN ITALIAN!

Or rather, a man pretending to be Italian.

>>27907513
Well, Good on Rome. I admit, it did quite well with regards to accuracy.

>>27907513
I'm reading that paper right now. It says that legionaries could switch from a open order to a close order shield wall. I don't think they all held onto each other by their belts though.

>>27907691
That was a little bit dubious, but there's very little record as to how exactly the line-shifting occured, if it was consistent, organized, or relied upon individual initiative.

Some schools maintain that it was by file, which would sort of necessitate that it happened in some way that controlled the number of people in the front rank, others suggest that it was a general, gradual coalescion of entirely units, not individual cycling.

So... You know. We don't know. It could've done a lot worse though, and represented them like Sparticus did, as a bunch of undisciplined mindless brawlers.

>>27907940
Not one Pilum thrown in the entire series.
Fucking disgraceful.

>>27907691
It does definitely mention that there was a method to "open" the formation in Caesar's time, so that swords could be used more effectively, but it also sounds very organized and intelligent--with individual soldiers forming a checkerboard formation, so that the ones in back can still act, but the ones in front have some room to maneuver.

I'd really like to see this portrayed, it sounds badass.

>>27908185
Sadly, it will probably never be.

Besides the Greeks, did other ancient peoples have.

Or they were the only /fit/izens at the time?

>>27908333
Well, the Celts just did sports in the field of games.

Sports are a valid physical training and preparation for war

>>27907047
>women in the background

>>27908333
The Romans had military training grounds that were supposed to be pretty extreme. "Bloody training, bloodless battles" was someone's motto. The idea was just to take war, make it harder, and then do that for six months before marching to actual war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoswyNaAIUA

>>27908333
Hardly.

Their friendly neighbors, the Persians, had a similar Gymnastic institution called "Zurkaneh" which literally translates into the exceedingly manly name of "The House of Power" or "The House of Strength."

All the highborn sons of Achamaenid Persia trained in the Zurkhaneh in athletics, such as riding, shooting, wrestling, and various exercises dedicated to wielding weapons and bodily improvement.

The height of the Zurkhaneh program reached its nadir during the Parthian and Sassanid Dynasties. The dominant class of this time were feudal knights called "Savaran," who sent their sons into the Zurkhaneh. The training became very rigourous, specially in swordsmanship, archery, horsemanship, and weights training.

Pic related, modern Zurkhaneh training in Iran. The legacy of the Parthian/Sassanid training lives on with the most iconic physical training of Zurkhaneh: exercises involving massive wooden clubs of exceeding weight levels, to condition the Savaran warrior with wielding their maces and longswords.

>>27908699
You mean reached its zenith, right? Nadir is the LOWEST point.

>>27908699
> That poster in the background.

>>27908760
Yeah, sorry, butchered my english there for a moment.

>>27908760
It's also the name of the Mongol race in David Gemmel's Drenai saga.

That's really funny now that I think about it, because the entire series is about the Nadir going from being irrelevant steppe folk to dominating the world, and then fading into obscurity again.

>>27908689
Fucking classic.

>>27908699
In China, meanwhile, there's no such thing as a gymnasium. You wanted physical training? You have to go to a martial arts school, and they had lots. The gentry of the nobility/scholar/mercantile classes pretty much engage in schools of swordsmanship, archery, and pole-fighting. Hand to hand fighting is also popular, specially among people who cannot afford weapons such as the average citizen/peasant.

Funnily, martial art schools also serve as public entertainment for the Ancient Chinese. Rival schools (specially two schools focusing on the same martial art form) usually meet in a martial art tournament known as Lei-Tai, held in a raised platform set up in the town square. You might have seen it in Dragonball or The Last Airbender and the rules are the same: its an armed/unarmed duel where the objective is to pummel the enemy into submission or force him off the platform (hence the name, "Lei-Tai" = "Striking Platform")

The military, however, specialized in mass physical drills, which is the basis of the popular image of hundreds of Chinese in ordered rows in synchronized drill training. Not only does it serves physical training but imbues a sense of moving as one among Chinese soldiery.

Much of Chinese exercises get ridiculed by the West for it's "dance-like" routines, which in reality are simply exhibitions and exercise drills meant to familiarize the trainee with various forms of bodily movement, improving one's balance, and one's skills in keeping balance. You can see the same thing with dancers.

>>27908699
Well, fuck. Club bells now look like maracas.

>>27909069
>Much of Chinese exercises get ridiculed by the West for it's "dance-like" routines
>exercises get ridiculed by the West for it's '"dance-like"
>the West for it's
>it's


>get ridiculed

>>27909094
Fiesta duro.

One of the other threads mentioned Icewind Dale so I'm looking at that game again. I need to make a party of six mercenaries to relieve a settlement under goblin siege. How can I make the fechtiest mercenary company that D&D 3e will allow?

>>27909094
Kinda, but it's swung though as opposed to shaken. The whole point is to condition the arms for the bearing of weapons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPEe7uTuuho

>>27908699
>>27909094
>They call me Cuban Pete!

>>27909475
>party hard.jpg

>>27909536
>Dey call me Persian Pete,
>I'm da king of da Moslem Beat,
>When I shake my Zurkhanes dey go Chik Chikky Boom Chik Chikky Boom

>>27909475
Holy fuck, that's a strong man.

>>27909593
>When I shake my Zurkhanes I go Click Clicky Boom Click Clicky Boom

>>27909475
THE COMMENTS

>Ya Aliiiiiiiiiiiii... Long Live IRAN...

>dude you are an idiot these are persian. the only thing smelly indians ever invented was drinking cow piss fresh from the shlong.

> if i am saying wrong then please bring Ur research papers let us debate this club swinging purely belongs to Indians not Persian.SORRY if hurting Persians feelings.

>>27909593
I'd have to admit I cracked up on this one.

>>27909640
>india versus iran cock measuring

Oh this is marvelous.

>>27909640
It is settled, we need a shamshir-and-round shield wielding Persian set up in a fecht with a tulwar-and-buckler/knife wielding Indian once SoS comes out.

>>27910203
Ah, Shamshir, that's a good name. Shame I didn't have a 7th person.

So here's my foray into Adventurer Spec Ops: Song of Swords edition. Four fighters, a dwarf ranger, and a half-orc barbarian. Our only spellcasting capacity happens when that ranger hits level 4 or something.

This one's for you, Song of Swords thread.

Great progress. The tasks fall before us as wheat before the scythe.

>>27910282
HUZZAH

>>27910203
>>27910282
On the topic of sabers, in SoS, does draw cutting have a lower range than normal cuts? You kinda have to cut differently when draw cutting. Also what about push cutting?

These videos were posted in the last thread. Jimmy, if you haven't seen them watch some.
http://www.youtube.com/user/scholagladiatoria/videos
It's a well-spoken HEMA guy that talks about good stuff.

>>27910317
Yeah, but the way RoS had it was excessive. You don't need to get within a bloody dagger's reach to execute a proper cut with a katana. It's not enough of a step in to justify an entire range category lost.

>>27910317
>On the topic of sabers, in SoS, does draw cutting have a lower range than normal cuts?
Current SoS rules have Draw Cut as a passive bonus to damage when striking unarmored areas. I like it better than having to be at a closer range like Riddle did.

>>27910346
Especially since a lot of cutting with a katana is executed with the forward six inches.

>>27908699
Googled Zurkhaneh and between images of heavy mustachioed Iranians, I come across ancient Persian aircon methods.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher

Today has been a day of learning.

>>27910258
Oh snap, I loved Icewind Dale. Good luck sir! Post screenshots of your victory.

>>27910317
Regular draw-cuts do not lessen reach, but the Deep Draw-Cut maneuver, which we are re-introducing in the next update, does reduce reach in return for increasing draw-cut damage significantly.
This is useful both for doing even moar damage, but also for engaging enemies with shorter weapons if they successfully move in, and in Grapples where longer weapons are heavily penalized.

>>27910363
Unarmored or armored with non-metallic material like padded textiles. You also only get the bonus if you beat your opponent's defense by a certain amount.

I like it too as it makes these weapons capable of the truly horrific cutting injuries they are in real life to unprotected targets but still lets metallic armor stop them absolutely fucking dead.

>>27910317
His two-part series on Indian tulwars is fantastic.

The way he was swinging that sword around reminded me of Lloyd's anecdote of an anecdote about scimitar use and keeping it close to the body and everything.

>>27910385
>>27910393
Speaking of which, is that a possible interpretation of Deep-Draw? Holding the sword really close to the body to get within enemy reach and fuck them up?

>>27910391
>I like it too as it makes these weapons capable of the truly horrific cutting injuries they are in real life to unprotected targets

Hopefully this even includes ceremonial brass helmets. I'm reminded of that account of an English sabreur hacking a Frenchman's head like a cabbage right down through one.

>>27910393
I just watched this one.
http://www.youtube.com/user/scholagladiatoria/videos
Interesting thoughts on spears. Note how easily he changes the range of it. Also note how short his spear in the video is.

>>27910433
Oh yeah, I remember this guy. He's not bad, I got some answers from one of his videos for something, but I can't remember what it was.

>>27910346
>>27910365
Question: In TRoS would you say its balanced to houserule that draw cut doesn't reduce the range?

I never found it particularly realistic, but with my limited experience with the game could never figure out if removing that aspect would fuck up any game balance.

>>27910317
remember that lindybeige fagoot?

This is what lindy would be if he knew what he was talking about.

>>27910534
Hey, Lindy knows what he's talking about!

...Every once in a while...

>>27910541
Yeah, you're right. After all, he DOES say his name at least once every video.

>>27910426
IIRC he did it with this sword (it might have been the light cavalry sword).

>>27910563
It was the Light Cavalry Sword actually, yeah.

>>27910541
He has his specialty, but everything beyond his specialty he talks authoritatively about while just making shit up or pulling assumptions out of his ass.

>>27910385
Are Deep Draws kind of like getting within a foot of your opponent and iaijutsuing his stomach open?

>>27910594
Draw cut =/= drawing the sword and cutting, its drawing the sword back or forward against your opponent's flesh as you're cutting, like slicing meat with a sharp knife.

>>27910385
Behold! I have acquired the legendary armor of the high fechtmeister.

>>27910493
That's essentially what we did. We drew the line between using the simple geometry of the sword to inflict greater draw damage, and... As >>27910594 says, getting within a foot of someone and dragging the full length of the sword along them in a hideous draw cut. Deep, if you will.

So we made one a passive bonus and the other a maneuver.

>>27910592
I like when he interviews people at historical events and so on, because he only ever seems to interview knowledgeable people about things they know a lot about.

His recent video about bronze rapiers is pretty much spot-on, though. I look forward to more bronze-age videos - makes a nice change from hearing what Dan Howard or Neil Burridge have to say.

Not that I have a problem with Dan or Neil, mind. I just like variety.

>>27910617
>that description

>>27910617
Goddamn it gygax.

>>27910616
Which is exactly how you'd cut someone if you were cutting them while you were drawing your sword. If you cut someone before the entire length of your blade is pulled from the scabbard... that's a pretty close range draw cut. Done while drawing the sword, yes, but a draw cut nonetheless.

>>27910660
It makes you wonder how they even made the mistake. Like, when looking at pictures of armor, did they ONLY look at pictures? Did they not read a single caption or bother to do even the slightest bit of research into what they were looking at?

Its maddening!

>>27910647
> Cut right behind the eyes. This kills the knight.

>>27910672
When he said "iaijutsuing his stomach open" I thought he was associating the "draw" aspect with the iaijutsu "draw."

My bad.

>>27910688
Studded leather's origin is actually well documented. It's somebody looking at a brigandine and not understanding what it actually was they were looking at.

>>27910720
So like, they didn't think to actually examine the armor at all?

>>27910688
Yes.
That's literally what happened.

>>27910738
Apologies, I actually totally fucking misread what you wrote. But yeah.

>>27910744
But... like... How? What kind of absolute chucklefuck actually does that for any serious published work (even if it is just an RPG)? Did someone seriously get payed to do that? I mean, fuck, that's not even POOR research, that's NO research at all.

My Jimmies!

>>27910800
He made more mistakes than that, don't worry.

>>27910800
People who tend to designe shit for games/fun make those mistakes.

See: Call of Duty

>>27911085
There's not much shit wrong in Cawadooty's assumptions about guns that a million other FPSes didn't mess up first, really. Like short range shotguns.

This gave me a good surprise when I first saw it in Icewind Dale 2.

The blade changes name to have the name of the leader of the party, even if you rename the same character. I think it's just a small easter egg and has no secret benefit.

>>27911183
Video game shotguns are a staple of video games, but more often games get things wrong with gun models and reload animations. Things like casings flying out the wrong way, or chambering a gun not working like it's supposed to.

>>27911211
Not to mention range.

>>27911183
Woah, hold up man you're blowing my mind.
Are shotguns not short range or is it just exaggeration?

>>27911226
They're "short range" in terms of modern firearms, where "short range" effectively means "can actually see the person you're shooting at as more than just a blurry human shape." 00 buck is actually accurate out to a hundred yards or so, and doesn't spread much more than a few inches until beyond that.

>>27911226
In real life shotguns are basically melee weapons, unless you load them with solid slugs, whereupon they become akin to sniper rifles.

>>27911226
100 feet away, the spread of buckshot is about dinner plate sized.
a football field away, someone can12 gauge slugs through your chest. fuck, my shotgun has rifle sights on it for this exact reason.

>>27911226
Shotguns are short range...COMPARED TO RIFLES, basically. 30 meters is still more than 90 feet, but a lot of vidya tend to make shotguns require you be close enough to spit on your target.

>>27911211
Yeah, that's true. That's something that always bugged me about Counter-Strike and some other games with modern firearms; they have reversed models, even for guns that don't actually have left-handed variants in real life. ...Amusingly, Call of Duty AFAIK doesn't usually get this one wrong.

>>27911226
On the off-chance you're serious:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShortRangeShotgun

>>27911200
Unique named magic items get epic when you play at Heart of Fury difficulty.
For example dagger of +1d6 damage to goblins becomes dagger of explosive gore goblin bits and autoslays any goblin it hits.
However, because of NPC scaling, summoned creatures become godlike (your 18lvl cleric Create undead may create some epic unkillable monstrosity posing challenge even to full party of lvl 30 PCs), and all balance is ruined forever.

>>27911284
I always viewed shotguns more of a musket.

>>27911284
>In real life shotguns are basically melee weapons
I didn't realize that a football field's length away was still considered melee distance.

>>27911332
>Winchester 1897
I'd smile too ear to ear too.

>>27911383
>smile ear to ear*
shit

>>27911303
No way, really? That's awesome to know. I beat Heart of Winter thanks to abusing conjuration spells, so perhaps that strategy would work in ID 2 as well.

>>27911284
I remember one time back in the day, playing Delta Force: Land Warrior, I was randomly firing my pancor jackhammer as I ran over a mountain, and some random piece of the buckshot hit someone nearly on the other side of the map.

Shit was cash.

Anyways, to stay on topic, have an archer suffering from dysentery.

>>27911284
So you're saying the ultimate weapon would be a slug-shotgun with an underslung buckshot-shotgun for if they close?

>>27910450
Question, in the update, you include rules for adding top spikes to weapons with no piercing, would there be a way to add handguards to weapons that don't usually have them? Say I want a hand axe with a full shiavona style guard, how does that affect it?

>>27911517
AA12 with explosive rounds.

Basically bolter.

>>27911576
Wouldn't it also need to be a gyrojet?

Speaking of Easter Eggs.

>>27911636
Oh yeah huh. The gyrojet aspect of bolters always escapes me. Was just thinking of the explosive rounds.

>>27911544
Good lord. I have no idea. I guess we can include rules for that, but it's a bit outside of the scope of this coming update.

>>27911654
Well, since gyrojets suck balls in real life, it's still about as close as we're going to get.

Anyway...if you're still around, Jimmy, are we looking at a solid release prediction now?

>>27911688
Weapon modifications seems like a good idea for a future... thing.

>swordchucks and double katanas for everybody!

>>27911699
Not quite, but we're successfully keeping to our deadline, which is close to unheard of for us so far.
We're also all working again, so nobody is starving to death. Money troubles are over. I think we're going to hit our Halloween release for funtime quickstart rules, so that folks can fecht to their heart's content with a functional ruleset.

>>27911688
>outside of the scope of this coming update


Oh yeah, didn't want to imply a rush, just wondering how customizable things could get.
Like>>27911736 said, the future sounds like a good time for it.


mmmm...pikechucks.

>>27911939
Oh don't worry, we'll get to something like that eventually.
Maybe not swordchucks extreme. Maybe. We'll have to see how that works systemically.

>>27911967
If there is anything we can take away from Japanese weapons, is that sticking chains on shit makes everything more awesome.

>>27906303
are you fucking serious you wanker?
if you weren't fucking meant to thrust with most swords their tips would be flat, you cock.

>>27911967
GURPS has rules for swordchucks. Every day you don't is a day you're just a barrel in a cage.

>>27911899
Here's hoping. How much of a quickstart are we looking at here; is there going to be functional character creation or are we going to be using pregens?

>>27912022
>mfw people think you swing the kama and not the weighted chain.

>>27912126
Freaking barrels.

>>27912022
Why is the chain attached to the blade?
That just seems unwieldy.

This one looks rather nice though.

>>27912219
Because its supposed to be used more like a flail with a kama's blade on the handle than a kama with a chain attached.

>>27912219
The fuck?
That is not what I posted.....you know what, it works.
Here is the right image.

>>27912219
I really hope somebody fixes this glitch.

>>27912262
>>27912219
Remember that poor fuck who was posting Pullo/Gizka slashfiction and accidentally posted fucking ponies?

We could've all died. It must end.

Rolled 2325

>>27912219
>Kusarigama.jpg

>>27912120
Character Creation, including completed races, Boons and Banes, the whole shebang, as well as combat, fully updated proficiencies and maneuvers with talents, wealth, a full inventory of weapons/armor/junk, and injury and healing.

The primary thing that is -not- yet being fully updated is the Experience system, because we're still playing around with how to give it more in-game effects... But basically, with this startup package you could reasonably expect to play a short campaign of Song of Swords without too much trouble.

We're going to be dropping it without a ton of formatting so that we can just keep rolling towards the next update without pausing, so it's not taking us any extra time either. We're just getting piles of clarified rules and fixes into your guys' hands as soon as possible so that there's something to actually do around here besides our usual (admittedly very fun) dicking around.

>>27912310
Oh, sweet! That's way better than I'd been expecting.

>>27912254
That still doesn't make sense to me though.
Maybe if the chain was shorter you could swing the whole thing around single handed like a flail.
I was under the impression the chain was to harass and entangle the enemy so you could get in close and finish him with the sickle.
>>27912258
This design seems much more practical for that.
Though I could just be completely wrong.

>>27912364
I imagine different schools of kusarigamajutsu favor different arrangements with the chain.

>>27912278
Thankfully we were in autosage right when it happened.

>>27912310
Hey, that sounds fine. Get to it Jimmy.

>>27912022
>>27912258


Guys...

guys

Guys.

Guys listen.

I have the best ide

guys listen

I have the best idea ever

guys

I'll make CHUCKS

guys

chucks

I'll make CHUCKS
Guys listen here

I'll make... Kasiri-Gama CHUCKS.

>>27912569
>Kasiri
Its right there, spelled properly, multiple times.
How?

>>27912569
I think that's what Axl from Guilty Gear basically had.

>>27912592
That is exactly what he had. The ponce.

Aw shit.

The barrels got organized.

>>27912569
Making a flail out of flail, what could possibly go wrong?

>>27912888
>implying you don't want to fight like a British time-travelling fire magician.

>>27912914
>implying you don't want to fight like a girl

>>27912914
AXL BOMBER!

>>27912940
>girl

ahahaha have I got interesting news for you, friend

>>27912853
Thats the location I learned that every fucking one should have ranged weapon, just in case.

>>27912946
> like a girl

>>27912940
Looks like someone is about to have a Bridget Dropped on them soon.
I'd still a Bridget probably.

>>27912940
>>27912946
>>27912958
Everybody's gay for Bridget.

>>27912947
I had that brainwave just earlier, before the goblin fight! Since we're all fighters, rangers, and barbarians, we're skilled in using bows and crossbows. I kitted everyone out. It's going to pay off here, I can tell.

>>27912961
>implying everybody's a lesbian

>>27912984
Hohoho, oh, you.

That's one suspicious keg...

Oh no! It's got a bomb! Shoot it, shoot it now!

Whew. Good job everyone.


The first five hours of Icewind Dale 2 are a barrel paranoia simulator with some tongue-in-cheek fetch quests thrown in.

>>27913191
>>27913170
This game is a lot more fun looking than I remember it being.

Or, instead of all this bullshit, I can just play Riddle of Steel.

Thanks OP!

>>27913238
Yes, instead of playing D&D 4e, you could play D&D 3e.

>>27913254
To be fair, the current state of SoS isn't exactly in great condition. Once the new update is out, THEN we'll have something to brag about with luck.

>>27913238
Ok.
Have fun.

>>27913238
Twenty-five threads and you pipe up NOW?

>>27913263
>>27913266
Yep. Hope you have as much fun as we did with Riddle.

>>27913263
Naah, it's still beta, so people will need to rip Opaque guys a new assholes with all the mistakes they made.

>>27911967
Rules for building custom weapons? I`m sold.
I`ve had an idea for homebrewed ninja rpg, where one of the advancement paths is gettiing a custom magic weapon for yourself (like, linked to your soul, or some other bullshit like that), those weapons would vary wildly in shape and form, dependant on user, (quite like Bleach soul swords) and would be called ninjato, because PCs are fucking ninjas and noone really knows what real world ninjato looks like anyway. Couple of example NPC I had in mind would use extendable Jian, called Geyser, and kusari-gama called South Pole - North Pole, imbued with magical bullshit power of magnets.

>>27913282
Certainly, but hopefully the game will still be a LOT more workable than the last one, at the very least being in a state where we can all comfortably run many fechts while waiting for the next step.

>>27913300
>noone really knows what real world ninjato looks like anyway
Oh no, we do. The thing is they didn't fucking exist.

>>27913368
This. That said, a ninja game where "ninjato" basically means "whatever weapon you fucking want loaded with whatever bullshit magic tricks you want" sounds just about hilarious enough to cross into the realm of awesome.

>>27913403
>That said, a ninja game where "ninjato" basically means "whatever weapon you fucking want loaded with whatever bullshit magic tricks you want" sounds just about hilarious enough to cross into the realm of awesome.
Verily. I'd play it.

>>27913300
>>27913368
What? Of course we know what a Ninjato looks like, and we they did exist. Ninja means Ninja, of course, and "to" means sword, Ninja-sword. Mostly consisted of tools/scrap steel worked in backyard forges to resemble the common weapons of the time, katana, tachi, or wakizashi. The common theory of them being shorter, straight swords makes absolute sense as the amateur smiths creating the sword would have less material to work worth and neither the time nor resources to fiddle around with differential tempering, which is where a katana's curve comes from. Then again, maybe some of them would given the skill and resources of the smith. That's like saying a drill doesn't exist or isn't a drill because it wasn't made by Mastercraft.

>>27913525
There were no ninjato.

What you're describing is a foot soldiers sword that had its own name, which I don't remember. Basically scrap swords.

>>27913525
>What? Of course we know what a Ninjato looks like, and we they did exist. Ninja means Ninja, of course, and "to" means sword, Ninja-sword.
If you finished this post with "any sword used by a ninja could be called that, but were no different from other swords used through Japan at all" instead of that utter tripe you finished the post with then you would have been right.

>That's like saying a drill doesn't exist or isn't a drill because it wasn't made by Mastercraft.
Except that's not what anyone is saying. Ninjato are a wonderful combination of katana myths, samurai myths, and ninja myths all wrapped up into one, and its amazing the extent of bullshit that charlatans like Hayes and his legions of idiot ninjer fanboys go through to try to not have to face reality.

>>27913557
You're telling me that no one other than the Japanese military (which didn't exist as a cohesive unit until the late 1600's) were the only people in Japan to ever produce swords? You also seem to be telling me, against overwhelming evidence and historical fact, that Ninja did not exist as anything other than "super secret assassin spies", and didn't produce their own weapons either? Then provide evidence. I don't really feel the need to provide evidence to my claims as a quick Google search will provide such, you sir have some explaining to do if I'm to believe what you claim.

>>27913525
>>27913557
It's kind of a shaky concept. Yes, Japan did have swords that were made straighter than others. Some were cheaper than others. Some were both straight and cheap.

However, calling these "Ninjato" is simply furthering this modern misconception that ninjas were... Well, ninjas. Like in Naruto, you know.

Just call these blades what they were: Cheap swords for poor people.

I would also like to point out that there is no historical or archaeological evidence supporting the existence of so-called "ninjato".

Oh my, is it time for this video again already?

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJSZ1TwjcsQ

>>27913557
Chokuto, I believe is the name of those kinds of Japanese swords. They're VERY similar to Chinese zhibei dao.

>>27913580
None of my information is based off of Stephen Hayes. While his head is firmly affixed inside his own ass, he did come from a credible background, why he lost his shit and decided to go the way he did no one will say.

>>27913595
>Then provide evidence.
You first. And no, legions of idiot fanboys or lying bastards looking to make a quick buck like Hayes and other "martial artists" don't count.
>I don't really feel the need to provide evidence to my claims as a quick Google search will provide such, you sir have some explaining to do if I'm to believe what you claim.
Like I said, legions of idiot fanboys or lying bastards looking to make a quick buck like Hayes and other "martial artists" don't count.

>>27913609
Masaaki Hatsumi is a charlatan of the highest order. He and everything he teaches is a hoax.

>>27913604
You are way more on base than "there is no Ninjato". It was more a colloquialism of the time, probably said in derision, than the artifact of legend we regard it as today. Cheap swords made by an oppressed people designed to fight back against their oppressors.

>>27913629
And why do you say that?

>>27913637
I believe the word is completely modern.

It's a bit like if we started calling all surviving European quarterstaffs "Merry Men Staves", because they were supposedly used by Robin-Hood-style Merry Men.

I mean, yeah, some quarterstaffs COULD have been used by Merry Men, if they ever existed. But really, they're just, you know, quarterstaffs. Made by normal people for other normal people to fight with.

>>27913595
>You also seem to be telling me, against overwhelming evidence and historical fact, that Ninja did not exist as anything other than "super secret assassin spies"
What "overwhelming evidence and historical fact" would this be? Because pretty much every PRIMARY SOURCE I've seen indicate that "ninja" were mostly military, specialists in sabotage, recon, and other stealthy operations, and used all the same tools any other warrior in Japan had access to.

Or do you seriously believe the lies and hype? You know that shit was made up to make money off the "kewl ninjer" mythos, right?

>>27913666
Sure, some Ninja and/or Ninja clans fit the stereotype but there are several schools of martial arts related to Ninjutsu, and not all of them were mercenaries for hire. All of them were people, with a myriad of goals and motivations and there are surviving documents detailing such individuals, and not ALL of them were spies, mercenaries, saboteurs and scouts. Some of them merely lived.

>>27913648
He says he is the soke of NINE schools. Becoming Menkyo kaiden(a person with license to teach a koryu school) takes a bloody long time. He says that he is the soke of nine. The sheer number of the amount of schools is so bloody out of this world, that this alone should flare anyones bullshit meters.Also, none of the schools have any legitimate paperwork and none of them are considered a koryu art. He made them all up. He and everything he teaches is a modern made-up fairytale.

>>27910645
>His recent video about bronze rapiers is pretty much spot-on, though

That's because his field is dark ages and earlier. He does fine with that junk, it's his videos on anything after about 1,000AD or so that are fucking nonsense.

>>27913705
>Sure, some Ninja and/or Ninja clans fit the stereotype but there are several schools of martial arts related to Ninjutsu, and not all of them were mercenaries for hire.
You're right, the others were bushi with special skills.
>All of them were people, with a myriad of goals and motivations
Duh.
>and there are surviving documents detailing such individuals,
What individuals? I can guarantee half of them were completely fictional and the other half weren't even "ninja."
No one outside the "popular martial arts books" community actually believes this bullshit.

>and not ALL of them were spies, mercenaries, saboteurs and scouts.
Yes, they were, that is the exact definition of what you do to be considered a shinobi/ninja.

>Some of them merely lived.
This statement doesn't even make sense. Of course people lived, otherwise they would be dead, what are you trying to imply?

>>27913722
Also, that video gave me a new appreciation for those rapiers. There's just something overwhelmingly NASTY-looking about them. The way the hilt disappears in your hand and the rest of it is just this long spike. Marvellous.

>>27913709
Minor correction here: Menkyo kaiden doesn't refer to the licensee, it's the license itself.

>>27913709
Are you sure it's made up? People I know have been to his dojo and have seen the densho from the 9 schools he holds. He was entrusted with those densho from the menkyo kaiden of said schools. From where does this opinion that Hatsuumi is a scam artist come from? Do you have any evidence to back such an accusation? Or have you been told this by someone else? Clearly I cannot prove he holds what he says he does, nor can you prove otherwise, but I also don't go around flinging accusations at people so I'm wondering why you are?

>>27913709
Also, what I mean by paperwork.

The "schools" he says he is the soke of are NOT products of continuous transmission of techniques and culture. It's not koryu, it's made up, period.

Damn I get worked up over Bujinkan bullshit. God I hate that man and everything he has created in the martial art world.

>>27913739
I stand corrected.

Oh great, ninjas again...
I really wish the topic of ninja wasn't considered poisonous in serious academia, then maybe someone would finally write a concise debunking of all this shit.

>>27913757
I do not have the first hand papers at hand, but here's an online source for you:
Koryu.com

Also, I fetched up their stand on Masaaki Hatsumis Bujinkan.
http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html

Also, here's a legitimate koryu school with ninjutsu in its curriculum.
http://www.koryu.com/guide/katorishinto.html

>>27913765
What's really sad is something mentioned a while back, if it's true: SAMURAI and the Sengoku period itself are starting to become considered as poisonous as the ninja myth in Japanese academia outside of Japan itself.

>>27913801
I kind of doubt that. Samurai haven't been glamourised anywhere near as much as ninja have. Plus, to a certain extent, the sengoku jidai is too well-documented for it to become as toxic as this ninja business.

>>27913801
Its disturbingly true, apply to any Western university with the desire to do research on premodern Japanese military history and see how many eyerolls you're met with.

"Popular history" not only has the effect of spreading misinformation, but also snuffing out good information, and not nearly by being more prominent, but by giving writers of good information a bad rep by making the academic community think they're just part of the problem and not trying to be part of the solution.

Its sickening.

>>27913733
By saying "merely lived", I'm not indicating that people were at some point alive, I'm saying that they had nothing to do with military action, I sorta thought that was clear from context.They did however train in a school of martial art as a way of life.
>No one outside the "popular martial arts books" community actually believes this bullshit.
Interesting. Belief is a funny thing in the way that it doesn't have to be based on personal experience at all. If you have never trained in the schools of martial art of which I speak, have not researched or read up on them, then how do you know it's bullshit? You're just throwing your opinion out there, and backing it solely with the derision of a perceived "popular" group. I've never been able to find any of the books I've received this information from in any big box book store, or on any "Top Seller" shelf, so I'm not sure I fit neatly into that "popular martial arts books community".

>>27913821
>its

>>27913788
In short, Masaaki Hatsumi is a charlatan with no honest bone in his body, and I hate him for the myths and lies he uses to poison the pure joy of new martial artists. What he teaches is not real koryu, it's not legitimate and worst of all it's all ineffective bullshit with no use in real life. You're better off NOT learning bujinkan for self-defense.

That's all, gotta get to work.

Damn I'm steaming.

>>27913818
They've been glamorized enough to have a pop-culture image almost as strong, really.

>>27913821
Yeah, that's basically the problem I've heard of in a nutshell. Not like people might be interested in learning the truth behind the pop culture bullshit, am I right?

>>27913832
>

>>27913841
Pretty soon everybody's going to assume Legend of the Five Rings is perfectly historically accurate aside from the magic and the setting location.

>>27913846
That's not how you make jello

>>27913860
Looks just fine to me.

>>27913867
But it's a Glock, so it'll blow up and spray jello everywhere!

>in b4 gb2/k/

>>27913841
So, is the problem that nobody can actually do research on the subject without losing credibility with liberal academics, or that nobody is willing to acknowledge evidence that goes contrary to popular conceptions on the subject when it is found?

Because I think we're a pretty mature group of people around here. SoS threads in particular accept evidence readily when presented with it, look at how many subjects we've handled well in the past, even when the data strongly disagreed with popular opinion at the time. Look at how easy it was to set the record straight on textile armor, mail and plate, and the roles these things had in medieval armoring, or how quick everyone adapted to the idea of leather in armor when it was presented reasonably.

I think the real problem with this whole Ninja thing is that the discussion always starts on an acerbic note, and escalates into vitrolic namecalling soon afterwards. I think we ought to be above that.

>>27913788
Thanks for the links. I'd have to agree totally that the Bujinkan does not meet the criteria of a koryu bujutsu school, because the Bujinkan is not a school. It is an organization. Hatsumi doesn't run a bujutsu school, and I don't believe he has ever claimed to. He does however hold the densho for Togakure ryu that was passed down to him from from his teacher, the 32nd inheritor of said scroll, Takamatsu Toshitsugu. This, and techniques derived of other schools make up the curriculum of what is taught in the Bujinkan but it has never been claimed to be a single standing ryu by any of it's founders. Because the curriculum taught is an amalgamation of different schools, doesn't mean it's bullshit. By that logic, MMA in it's entirety is bullshit.

>>27913822
>I'm saying that they had nothing to do with military action,
Then they wouldn't be ninja.
>They did however train in a school of martial art as a way of life.
That doesn't make one a ninja.
>Interesting. Belief is a funny thing in the way that it doesn't have to be based on personal experience at all.
Based on primary sources, actually. You know, stuff written by people who were alive at the time, involved directly in these things, doing these things, or actually were these things.
All of it stacks up against you.
>If you have never trained in the schools of martial art of which I speak, have not researched or read up on them, then how do you know it's bullshit?
Oh fuck off with that bullshit. Martial artists =/= historians. Period. What I have read up and researched is the history of who ninja were and their capacity and role in premodern Japan, and you don't need to go to some McDojo to learn that. (Actually I'd highly advise against it.) And the writings of multiple military leaders and daimyo from all over Japan, as well as the history of the Iga province and its peoples, and the background of several "ninjutsu" schools from the Edo period (their ACTUAL background and not just what they sell prospective students) paints a very different picture from what you're saying.

>You're just throwing your opinion out there,
Wrong, its fact.

>and backing it solely with the derision of a perceived "popular" group.
Because that is the group that almost all your misinformation originates from.

>I've never been able to find any of the books I've received this information from in any big box book store, or on any "Top Seller" shelf, so I'm not sure I fit neatly into that "popular martial arts books community".
I should let you know that "popular martial arts books" doesn't refer to how well they sold, but rather the purpose they were written for. To make money. Its a term coined by academia to neatly categorize that garbage.

>>27913891
>is the problem that nobody can actually do research on the subject without losing credibility with liberal academics, or that nobody is willing to acknowledge evidence that goes contrary to popular conceptions on the subject when it is found?
Its a little bit of both. Serious academics won't do it because of the former, and the public hesitates to accept it because of the latter.

>>27913891
I'm STILL proud of the SoS clique for being able to find the too-often neglected middle ground between extreme weeabooism and extreme antiweeabooism when it comes to the katana.

>>27913907
>"Then they wouldn't be ninja."
>"That doesn't make one a ninja."
What does make one a ninja?
Which primary sources? Are your primary sources automatically more correct than mine? Look, neither one of us has direct access to historical evidence, so posturing back and forth, citing primary sources that we both can't produce will get us no where.
>Martial artists =/= historians. Period.
Neither are writers, but sometimes writers do some research if it'll help their craft. So do some martial artists. Keep in mind that some of the history you've read was written by those who were vehemently opposed to perceived Ninja at the time of writing, and as the say history is written by the winners, so it make sense that it would paint Ninja in an unfavourable shade. Or not at all.
>but rather the purpose they were written for. To make money.
All books are written to make money, that's why they are for sale. Even academic dissertations are made to "sell" and make prestige for the institution, which in turn provides them with more funding (a.k.a. money)

>>27913891
Wait, leather in armour? I must have missed that one. I'm still very much in the Dan Howard school of "Leather armour was only ever done in China through to the Han dynasty, and in Europe in the form of 17th-c buff coats"

>>27913988
There are a few references to the boiled stuff in period literature, and I believe extant material examples in a museum in London. There's also a guide from the 12th or 13th century detailing how one would make a sort of cuirass out of rawhide, powdered glass and glue. (I know, sounds bananas,) and according to some people, it might've made an appearance in the miaskowski bible, though that last one sounds dubious to me.

Anyway, we can get the impression from all of this that at least the concept of treating leather to make armor out of it was known to medieval people. I doubt it was popular, and I certainly doubt that anyone in the medieval world went to war in a suit of untreated leather (there's no evidence of that at all,) but when it's referenced in period books, there's a period guide to making it, and you've got a piece or two of it, what can you do except accept that it must've happened?

So, "cuir bouilli" in some form? Definitely real, if possibly not as we understood it, and of unverifiable popularity. Plain leather as armor? No evidence for it at all, and a lot of other, more practical options available that make it unlikely.

>>27913968
>What does make one a ninja?
Its a job title. Just like how learning a koryu doesn't make you a samurai, learning a martial art doesn't make you a ninja. What makes one a ninja? Being a warrior with skills in sneaky git type operations, either for hire or in the employ of a feudal lord.
>Which primary sources?
Takeda Shingen's writings has a whole section on how he used them. The Oda, Tokugawa, and Toyotomi Hideyoshi made extensive use of them as well, plus there were the denizens and collective of samurai that ran the Iga han, they're an especially interesting lot.
Big multi volume collections of these writings and letters have been published. But unfortunately not in English, and they're DISGUSTINGLY expensive. They're pretty much made for libraries and Universities only.

>Are your primary sources automatically more correct than mine?
If your "primary sources" include the shoninki, written during the Edo period by the leaders of the Iga han to wow the shogunate to give them an exception on the caste-lock that prevented farmers from being warriors and the other way around, then yes. Otherwise, I dunno, you'd have to give me a list.
>Look, neither one of us has direct access to historical evidence, so posturing back and forth, citing primary sources that we both can't produce will get us no where.
So back out and accept you may be wrong then, because so far you seem to be the only one unable to "produce" any sources.
>Neither are writers, but sometimes writers do some research if it'll help their craft. So do some martial artists.
I'm sure some do, except all too many of them just fall right into the popular history trap, or take Edo period romanticism at face value.

>>27913968
>>27914091

>Keep in mind that some of the history you've read was written by those who were vehemently opposed to perceived Ninja at the time of writing,
Takeda Shingen, Oda Nobunaga, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Hattori Hanzo, and the like loved them, actually.
>and as the say history is written by the winners, so it make sense that it would paint Ninja in an unfavourable shade. Or not at all.
This argument is akin to "absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" in that its not actually true.

>All books are written to make money, that's why they are for sale. Even academic dissertations are made to "sell" and make prestige for the institution, which in turn provides them with more funding (a.k.a. money)
The difference is that popular histories are written solely to make money, academic books are articles are written to educate and show their research and findings as well.

>>27914058
Yeah, sounds about right to me. It was the whole suit-of-untreated-leather thing that I found particularly unbelievable. Like I said, outside of European buff coats the only time I know that was done was in China - and they were using rhino leather.

>>27914103
And later, water buffalo leather. 'Cause they, y'know, ran out of rhinos.

>>27914124
People didn't say that hoplite cuirasses were leather, did they? Because that's my pet peeve. Those things were so obviously just layered cloth.

>>27914143
The linothorax is its own big ol' pile of controversy. I remember Dan Howard ranting up a storm about them over on the Steve Jackson Games forums.

>>27914058
>doubt anyone would go to war in untreated leather
What about camp followers? A skin tight leather suit is very practical for soldiers to look at your butt while getting footjobs

>>27914150
See, I completely agree with Howard on that one.

When you're making leather armour out of a biiiig piece of leather (Like a hoplite cuirass!), you need a biiiig animal to give you all that skin. A big animal like, say, a rhino, buffalo, elk, or a particularly fine cow.

Greece didn't have all that many big animals in the classical period. Economically, it would make more sense to use thickly layered linen.

Also, there's a jar somewhere with a cuirass on it bearing a VERY obvious quilt pattern.

>>27914180
Actually, Howard was arguing AGAINST the existence of the linothorax as a Greek thing, if I remember correctly.

>>27914150
Who's Dan Howard, and why does he think Hoplites wen't into battle without armour?

>>27914191
A historian, avid armor reconstructor and reenactor, and one of the prime writers of GURPS Low-Tech and GURPS Martial Arts.

Dude has a bronze replica Dendra panoply, I've heard.

>>27914103
Rather. And whether or not anyone actually did go into battle in only a leather jack or whatever, at some point, it was definitely not an armoring practice, which we can verify with handlists and the like.

So we have not only a lack of evidence, but a direct indication to the contrary of untreated leather as military armor in medieval Europe. Not only did nobody ever mention it, but they directly mandated different armors. In... I want to say it was Robert the Bruce's war against the English, every man who did not have at least X amount of armor was not allowed to participate in his army. Presumably because they'd be too useless to warrant the cost of feeding/paying them.

By modern standards, this minimum sounds outlandishly high in contrast with what we think of traditionally when we think of Scottish rebels. This absolute bare minimum included leather gloves that were reinforced with metal. Yes, if you showed up with plain leather gloves, they said "Nope, you can't die for our country. Get lost boy bach."

>>27914180
Wait, leather? Did the book say that the armor called the "linen thorax" was made of leather?

How on God's Earth did that get through editing?

>>27914205
>boy bach

That's the Welsh, dammit!

>>27914230
>>27914191
No, no. "Linothorax" is a modern term. I'm not aware what the classical Greeks called their cuirasses.

There's a little debate as to whether the classic hoplite cuirass was made out of layers of linen or just a big stonking piece of leather.

Dan Howard believes linen was used, because leather has slim to no protective value of its own. In addition, it was more expensive than layered linen. This is one of those situations where Dan Howard is both sensible, reasonable, and probably correct.

On the other hand, people like Lloyd believe leather was used because hur flurgit nupbligulb. Honestly, there's even less evidence for these things to be made from leather than there is for them to be made from linen.

>>27914164
Now, it's weird that you should mention that, but sheepskin undergarments were very well documented, so leather lingerie? Probably real. A lot of period underwear look a bit like boyshorts, so that's something.

>>27914280
Again, >>27914183.

From what I remember, Howard went on for a while about how the Greeks never used linen for cuirasses, ever, and that all the sources talking about people "armored in linen" were actually referring to the ENEMIES of the Greeks.

>>27914283
>Gruff but firm and juicy peasant mamma with short hair and wearing leather boyshorts.

Oh my.

>>27914307
Really? These days he's been going on anti-leather rants everywhere I've seen him (that fucker frequents all the same forums as me - MyArmoury, Steve Jackson...). I should probably pick up a copy of his book sometime and see what he has written down there.

>>27914334
It was a little while back, so it's entirely possible he's picked up information in the meantime that changed his tune. I also could just be flat out fucking misremembering the content of his rants.

>>27914316
Yeah boi boi, you git you somma dat pottage-fed peasant ass, you know what I'm sayin' cuz?

>>27914334
He might`ve just changed his opinion.
By the way, with all this linen vs leather debate, why not both? Or would metal armour be more feasible at this point?

Here, have a Khyber knife.

It's the Afhani equivalent of a grosse messer, and it's twice as nasty-looking.

>>27914351
I FORGOT TO ATTACH THE FUCKING PICTURE

TAKE TWO:

TAKE A FUCKING KHYBER KNIFE YOU ASSHOLES

>>27914340
We call 'em Shorties 'cause we tax like three quarters of the harvest bruh, those skinny ass niggas ain't got enough foods tah get tall.

>>27914349
How about leather with metal plates riveted inside backed by linen?

>>27914351
Is it already under my ribs or are you a dirty liar?

>>27914362
STOP DRAWING ATTENTION TO MY FLAWS

HERE'S YOUR FUCKING KNIFE
>>27914357

>>27914349
I think at the time I saw him, he was advocating that the Greeks just basically used bronze cuirasses, then later iron.

>>27914366
KHYBERRRRR KNIIIIIIIFE

Question: How many arrows, javelins and bolts did the average medieval skirmisher carry on him?

I heard English longbowmen had quivers of 24 arrows, and medieval javelinmen on foot and horse had 2 or three. But I can't find anything on crossbowmen.

And how powerful were javelins really?

>>27914407
I've heard they can actually be surprisingly good at penetrating armor at really close range, sometimes. The Spanish actually kept javelin units on for quite a while.

>>27914399
FLYSSSSAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

>>27914430

It's a big heavy lump of metal and wood, that's a good amount of power right there. Especially if you add in the momentum of throwing it from horseback or something.

>>27914407
Javelins will kill you.
That's all the power they need.

Am I the only guy who wants to see Olympic Javelin include an actual aiming component? It's not all about throwing it the furthest if you can't hit a dude.

>>27914558
>>27914526
How do they fare against padded armor and mail, or against plate? They fell out of use over time, right?

Just when I thought greek were all about spears, I find out about Labrys. God damn. It doesnt really matter what your armour is made of.

>>27914569
Getting hit in the chest will probably still kill you.
Javelins are heavy, so they hold their force well in the air, and are thrown with much more force than could be mustered in a normal thrust.
If a spear can do it, a javelin will do it better.

>>27914569
I would not hesitate to believe that a javelin could penetrate mail. The Spanish kept using them into the age of plate, as well, so it's quite possibly that heavier ones, thrown perhaps from horseback or at a strong angle, could penetrate that as well.

That said, I have no actual data regarding this. To my knowledge, it has never been tested.

>>27914600

I'm not so sure about that. Maybe some damage, but I don't think it would kill you outright. Otherwise I think they would have stuck around in central Europe much longer.


This sounds like something that desperately needs some actual testing.

>>27914703
We need a herd of pigs, a butcher, and some high-school girls.
For science.

>>27914725
This man knows what he's talking about.

Jimmy, fetch me my science gun!

Bump.

>>27914526
So in close range what will fuck up someone's day the most: A throwing spear, steel crossbow, or 120-lb warbow?

New Thread?

>>27915963

New thread. You'll need to make it, though.


>>27915954

There are far too many variables to say.

>>27911297
Doesn't counterstrike just mirror the models for left handed variants? I know that's what TF2 does if you set your guns to appear on the left side.

>>27916226
CS has a whole lot of issues in that regard, almost all guns eject into the opposite direction of where they should.
Also, the M4 animation uses the forward assist as a charging handle.

>>27915954
Crossbow because it can be loosed with just a trigger pull.
Unless the target is allowing the attacker to attack, then it's either the xbow or warbow based on which has the most power, but I don't know the poundage of a steel xbow so I can't call it. The Javelin needs to arc to get full power, and that needs range.

>>27915954
Throwing spear, because you can decide not to throw it and just stab them a bunch of times if they can use cover to get in close

>>27913300
So Naruto meets Bleach?

>>27913818
It really has. If you want to study the formation of kabuki in the Edo period, they throw doctorates at you, but if you want to learn about o-yoroi they scoff.

>>27916531
I hear that's because the modeler was left handed so he made all left handed guns, so when they put them in the game, they just put them all in the right hand, or something.

>>27914283
>>27914316