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27867378 No.27867378 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

So /tg/, I know this is more of a /k/ question but this came up in our game

Is there any weapon from Japan that is worth using over your average medieval/renaissance european weapon?

pic semi related

>> No.27867818

inb4 katana related shitstorm

>> No.27867934
File: 19 KB, 382x477, Nunchucks.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27867934

>>27867378
Nunchucks in the hand of a Master are the best Non-leathal CC weapon you could possibly have.

>> No.27867972

>>27867934
While that sounds wrong I really want to believe that

>> No.27867982

>>27867934
>nunchaku
>Japanese (in the medieval sense)

>> No.27868004
File: 49 KB, 491x245, tetsubo001-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27868004

>>27867934
>Bruce Lee.

Dude, anything can be the best Non-Lethal CC weapon if you give it to him. Doesn't mean it's the actually useful.

As for OP's question, I would try a tetsubo, and use it for the same functions as a Zweihander.

>> No.27868020

Gunpowder weaponry. By 12 century Japan was the second country to utilise them (right after China).

>> No.27868043

>>27867378
three important question:
for what purpose?
in what time period?
what do you mean by average?

>> No.27868046

>>27867378
In general, katanas are better than normal broadswords. The curve lets them be drawn and used in a single stroke, they hold an edge better, and they're tougher to break.

Though if you're fighting European style, the odds of you ever actually using it are slim.

>> No.27868086

>>27867378

A few of their Yari designs are pretty nifty, they have good bows, and the katana is a perfectly good saber.

>> No.27868147

>>27868046
Yes, no, no.

And I use the damn things.

>> No.27868200

>>27868046
>implying they are better
>not that each have strengths and weaknesses
>also implying swords in Europe were useless on a battlefield and making the pole arms to rifles, swords to handguns analogy

>> No.27868232

>>27867378
>Is there any weapon from Japan that is worth using over your average medieval/renaissance european weapon?

Not really. they're generic swords, spears and such. There's nothing particularily remarkable about them globally.

Their bows are nothing to write home about, apparently. They apparently never really got into using horn plates and sinew in making them, but I imagine that the English would've appreciated having the tech to make wooden bows without having to import wood from all over Europe.

>> No.27868266

Sure. A lot of the axes, clubs, swords, etc. are no less usable than the equivalent European weapons and they have some unique stuff that seems very fit-for-purpose, like the jitte, their matchlocks were great and some of the weirder weapons are apparently pretty devasting in the hands of a trained specialist - but then, that goes for almost everything.

>> No.27868281

>>27868232
>Their bows are nothing to write home about, apparently.
The yumi is pretty great.

>> No.27868294

A Katana is a pretty good Cavalry Sabre.

Especially when you don't have access to high quality metal.

>> No.27868443

>>27868281

Globally speaking. Remember that their neighbours could get the same performace out of a smaller package and without having to deal with all the *peculiar* stuff you gotta keep in mind when shooting a Yumi.

>>27868294
>Especially when you don't have access to high quality metal.

Look... the quality of an ore is rated by the percentage of whatever you're looking for in it. So a bad ore would have very little of it - in our case that's iron and japanese ore at that, which indeed did have very little of it.

The material itself? It's a goddamn element of the periodic table. It doesn't come in different grades. It's always the same element once you've rid it of everything else via smelting and such.

>> No.27868460

>>27868443
Yeah the whole 'poor quality iron' has to my number #1 pet hate in these discussions. What the fuck do people think steel is?

>> No.27868493

>>27868443
>>27868460

Someone needs to perform the KM summoning ritual so he can appear with his sources to dispel the myth.

>> No.27868556

>>27868046
also they are folded a million times and can cut through steel

>> No.27868563

>>27868046
>In general, katanas are better than normal broadswords.
What is a "normal" broadsword? You are aware that broadswords were weapons like this (pic related), right?

>The curve lets them be drawn and used in a single stroke
This is true. The issue is: Europe had curved swords as well. Plenty of them, actually.

>they hold an edge better, and they're tougher to break.
This is a myth.

>> No.27868763
File: 84 KB, 1600x1600, Schiavona-Morges.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27868763

>>27868563
Forgot my pic.

>> No.27868806

>>27868443
>>27868460
People misunderstand the "poor iron" issue.

What matters isn't the "iron" itself, but the way how you get it out of the ore.

The Japanese, just like Europeans throughout the early middle ages, did this using a bloomery oven called "tatara". These ovens didn't burn hot enough to fully separate the iron from the ore. A part of the slag would run out, but after the process was done, you'd have a huge lump of iron (bloom) left, unevenly infused with carbon and slag remainders. A completely unpredictable material to work with.
In order to turn this into a material one could work with, the bloom would be smashed apart and an experienced smith would sort the parts by their quality. The carbon rich, high quality steel would be turned into the edges, the low carbon steel would be later turned into the spine. The pieces would then be bundled (at times mixing pieces of different quality to get something in-between - similar techniques were applied in Europe where the steel was heated and then intertwined which resulted in elaborate patterns on the blade), heated, hammered and folded a couple of times to get the slag remainders out and homogenise the carbon content. Then the blade would be constructed, usually by mantling the high quality around the low quality steel. Whether this was giving the blade more resilience due to the less carbon rich steel being more ductile or whether this was just an economic choice to make most of the material one had available without wasting anything is questionable. In the end, the blade was differentially hardened by applying clay to the edge, reheating it and quenching it when it reached the right temperature. This also gave the blade its curvature due to the difference in cooling speed and the resulting shrinkage.

>> No.27868810

>>27868443
the problem being that you can't actually get the pure element, you get iron mixed with carbon. steel is just iron with a specific amount of carbon in it (and small amounts of nickel, or some other metals)

I'm no expert on either iron, or japanese iron, but I know too much carbon, or too little makes it much less useful for the purposes of weapon making.

i'm serious though, i know very little, and if someone more knowledgeable could explain (or disprove) it better, please do.

>> No.27868830

>>27868806
>The Japanese, just like Europeans throughout the early middle ages, did this using a bloomery oven called "tatara".
By that I meant - the Europeans used bloomeries too - not tatara ovens though.

>> No.27868869

>>27867378
>Is there any weapon from Japan that is worth using over your average medieval/renaissance european weapon?
Well they had some very nice two-handed sabres, great for butchering vast quantities of unarmored peasants.

>> No.27868870

>>27868810
>>27868806

or if they could post half a second before me, that'd be just as good.

>> No.27868887

>>27868046
Also if you're fighting Japanese style, it would only happen if you're unhorsed and lose your spear.

>> No.27868937

Anyone who seriously believes Japanese weapons are useless is fucking retarded. So's anyone who thinks they were magically better than European ones.

India's where it's at.

>> No.27868949

>>27868806
So... does that make Japenese steel on average better than European steel?

>> No.27868993

>>27868949
No, because it's not down to "better" and "worse".

>> No.27869000

Both areas produced good weapons. I think the European weapons are better designed, but that might be bias. However, it is recorded that the best swordsmen in Japan in the 1600s were Portuguese. Make of that what you will.

>> No.27869037

>>27869000
>However, it is recorded that the best swordsmen in Japan in the 1600s were Portuguese
You're just asking for a [citation needed] here.

>> No.27869064
File: 23 KB, 610x1024, 1382310570173.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27869064

Japan has some pretty awesome polearms

>> No.27869069

>>27869037
Citation: Portugese guys said so.

>> No.27869109

>>27868949
It depends on the time period. During the early middle ages, they probably had a similar quality material available while during the late middle ages and later periods, European steel was likely superior. Still, we're talking about raw material here. The benefit of higher quality steel is that it requires less work and there's less room for the smith to fuck things up, however, you can also turn a lower quality steel into good weapons, it just requires more work.

>> No.27869116
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27869116

>>27869064

>> No.27869123
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27869123

>>27869064
>chidori jumonji yari

>> No.27869136
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27869136

>>27869123

>> No.27869146

>>27868004
i'd say Bruce Lee himself is best non-lethal CC weapon.

>> No.27869148

>>27868993
but better techniques for forging existed in europe. the blast furnace was an extreme advance over the bloomery furnaces japan had/

>>27868949
no they still had to fold out impurities, the steel of a katana didnt have the same type of temper many european swords of the same time period had and where actually brittle because of it, this doesnt mean they are bad swords just not the best. there is no best sword.

and with that Im out of the trollbait thread.

>> No.27869164

DIVERTING QUESTION for the time being I assure you.

Sorry but I don't want to make a thread that can be completed in a few answers

For a (really really simple) game that uses ranged weapons such as pistols/rifles at the same time as melee weapons: what kind of limits should be placed on ranged weapons?

>> No.27869171
File: 50 KB, 589x415, 1382279610495.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27869171

>>27869064
so does europe

>> No.27869199

>>27869171
That fucking partizan, I want it. Party partizan 4lief.

>> No.27869204

>>27869146
>Bruce Lee
>Non-lethal

>> No.27869209

>>27869136
10/10
would gladly take the luck penalty for being a lancer


>>27869164
inability/difficulty to use in close quarters. time between shots.

>> No.27869211
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27869211

>>27869171
So does China

>> No.27869213

>>27869064
>>27869136
>>27869123
look up spiedo. its the euro version of this.

>> No.27869238
File: 117 KB, 752x335, polearms.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27869238

>>27869213
damn captcha ate my pic

>> No.27869287

>>27867934

Sup

>> No.27869300

>>27869213
>>27869238
googling spiedo just got me the spanish wikipedia page for spetum

>>27869287
captcha eat your pic?

>> No.27869303
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27869303

>>27869171
When directly comparing Japanese and European weapons, one usually notices that the Japanese weapons usually look shinier, with their pretty polish, the hardened edges that can be clearly seen with the naked eye, and so on.

The reason for this is that in Japan it is common to hand historical weapons to master polishers to have them polished, while in Europe, they're commonly kept in the state they are found.
Both has its up- and downsides. On one hand, the oldest Japanese swords have been polished so often that hardly anything of them is left. On the other hand, polished weapons certainly look a lot more impressive.

To give one an impression of what European weapons could look like if properly polished one can take a look at this weapon here, it's an Alemannic Sax from the 5th century AD - on the right in the state it was found, on the left after having been polished. One can clearly see that this weapon was made in a similar style as katana, using a construction method of different quality steels and differential hardening. The hardened edge can be perceived with the naked eye.

>> No.27869325

>>27869204
okay, Jackie chan.
You just don't start trabble with him in vicinity.

>> No.27869353
File: 73 KB, 622x626, 1373318306783.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27869353

>>27868046

>> No.27869367

>>27869303
wrong link?

>> No.27869372
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27869372

>>27869303
On the other hand here we have a Japanese katana blade that was exported to China and hasn't been polished.

It looks a lot more dull than what one usually gets to see, the quality of the weapon actually being hidden.

One should realise that katana don't naturally look the way they do but that it is a consequence of the elaborate polish.

>> No.27869388

Isn't a katana very fragile if you weren't trained to use it properly? I also have vague ideas that I was told Samurai avoided going blade to blade like the plague.

>> No.27869417

>implying the weapon is more important than the man
>2013

Anyway, the katana is good for unarmed targets or use as a sidearm, and while the metal was low quality it would be on par with iron western swords prior to when people made steel on purpose. It might suffer against plate armor, but like the shashka it was not so curved that thrusting attacks were useless.

The Naginata was on par with western glaives of the time, and they knew their way around the classics that are the infantry spear and the bow. Mounted archery was pretty legit, too. There's also that fuckhuge club that was basically what happens when a mace and a great sword have a baby. I forget its name though; usually the only thing I can think of when an opponent comes at me with one is to scream like a bitch before my head explodes.

>> No.27869423
File: 89 KB, 694x900, 1333264591654.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27869423

>>27869367
No, the right link. While the polearms look nice, their blades aren't as shiny and nicely polished. The centuries have taken their toll.

>> No.27869424

>>27869388

They avoided using katanas in any kind of real combat, as it was a really shitty weapon. Bow & Spear where the common choices.

>> No.27869447

>>27869388
I'm repeating information so don't call me informed, but from what I've ben told samurai generally fought on horseback with spear + bow. The sword was a "oh fuck" sidearm

>> No.27869458

>>27869353
He's right on the draw thing. There's an entire technique and an entire performance art based around the draw of the blade.

>> No.27869461

>>27869423
yeah. that doesnt bother me because I know what a relic is, and would never try to actually USE a museum piece.

on the other hand a good Sword is worth a lot, which is why I buy albion. quality control is great.

>> No.27869479
File: 1.99 MB, 396x224, guaranteed_replies.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27869479

>>27868046
>tougher to break
heh

>> No.27869483

>>27869458
which is useless if you wear some maille or draw before you go into a fight. but different strokes for different folks.

>> No.27869490

>>27869461
I hear cold steal is pretty good as well.

>> No.27869500

>>27869458
Iaijutsu was never used in warfare, only as surprise attacks against unaware opponents.

That said, it's still a neat technique but most sabres could be used for it the same way.

>> No.27869512

>>27869388
Yes, that is correct. It's way too easy to damage the edge, even in basic combat. Hell, even with current steel it's easy to damage them.

>> No.27869517

>>27869483
I believe they may have used it a lot like an old west duel only way closer together.

>> No.27869520

>>27869490
NO. their stuff is generally shit tier. even for the price it sucks, go valiant arms if you want a good sword for a reasonably cheap price. cold steel is cheap shit.

>> No.27869531

>>27869512
is that why most of their styles supposedly involved heavy use of the scabard to deflect blows?

>> No.27869536

>>27869531
That and avoiding blows altogether, yes.

>> No.27869550
File: 1.38 MB, 2042x2955, 1296852113764.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27869550

>>27869388
While this is partially true, it also a bit of a myth. While edge to edge contact was to be avoided, it was by no means that katana would shatter in impact.
Keep in mind: similar construction methods were used throughout the early middle ages in Europe. Saxon swords, Frankish swords, Viking swords, etc. all used similar techniques - yet you never hear about the oh so fragile Viking swords that would get damaged all the time.

Yes, the edges could get damaged from impact. There are plenty of accounts and depictions, but it was by no means that swords couldn't touch other swords. If you look at historical Japanese swordsmanship schools, e.g. Tennen-Risshin-Ryu (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwoNw3u-1tg) which was used by prominent members of the Shinsen-Gumi, you can clearly see that they're anything but careful when it comes to clashing blades. In the end, if the edge got damaged, then it couldn't be helped. You could always buy another sword.

>> No.27869551

>>27869520
Eh I dont think we actually bought anything. We were only after knives anyway

>> No.27869588

>>27869550
I don't know man, I would feel a lot more comfortable with a European sword going blade to blade. At least I could club someone with it if it was blunt.

>> No.27869600

>>27869551
>6
the knives are not so bad, I had one of mine fail by breaking in half while deboning a cow, they would not refund the blade like they said they would.

>>27869588
most european blades are not weighed in a weigh to be conducive to clubbing someone unless your doing a pommel strike or mordschlag

>> No.27869616
File: 1.36 MB, 4000x945, 1337943845276.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27869616

>>27869588
The point remains though. The swords of the early middle ages were similar. Hardened edges and a softer central part.

>> No.27869621

>>27869490

Cold Steel is rugged and overengineered, first and foremost.

>> No.27869635
File: 1.36 MB, 4000x945, 1337943845276.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27869635

>>27869616
4chan fucked up again, this wasn't the pic I uploaded.

>> No.27869640

>>27869600
>>27869616
Then I shall join the glorious war hammer master race and club people to death the proper way.

>> No.27869656

>>27869616

Already back the Euro swords tended to be the thinnest on the Eurasian continent, I think. Sanmai-construction is something that was apparently reserved for knifes and seaxes.

>> No.27869663

>>27869640
good on you, not much stops a hammer to the face.

>>27869635
yeah sorry man I have tried, I just cant into single hand swords. they feel unnatural to me. thats why I keep to longswords and polearms. daggers Im good with but cant use an arming sword for shit.

>> No.27869699
File: 127 KB, 793x1123, Japanese_spatha.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27869699

>>27869656
It's not like Japan didn't make similar swords at some point. During the European middle ages, Japan had its own Spatha equivalent (like pretty much anyone had at some point for some reason).

>> No.27869707
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27869707

>>27869640
Alternatively, a nice heavy one-handed flail and a good shield will do you wonders.

>> No.27869715

>>27867378
Well, this is gonna sound pretty weeaboo, but I'm a great fan of the bokken as a singlestick. Very fast in action, but heavy enough, with the mass concentrated behind a narrow enough area, to be lethal. Give me one of those, and I'm pretty confident of my ability to dispense anything from a light beating, to lethal damage including shattered clavicles, broken necks, and caved-in skulls.

>> No.27869728

>>27869707
Who says my war hammer isn't one handed?

>> No.27869745

>>27869715
Beatsticks of all flavors, whether sword-shaped, with weighted killy-bits at the end, or just a pole that wouldn't crack as easy as the thing you swung it at are classic weapons and not to be ridiculed. No problem weeabro.

>> No.27869770

>>27869728
Nobody, but it doesn't put its head on a chain to help get around those pesky defenses your opponent has, does it?

>> No.27869774

>>27869715
bokken is pretty much sword-shaped baseball bat.

>> No.27869781

>>27869770
But what about the much increased chance of hitting yourself in the nuts by mistake?

>> No.27869805
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27869805

>> No.27869808

>>27869781
That's what practicing to use a weapon correctly is for, comrade.

>> No.27869811

>>27869699

Uh... yeah, but those already did belong to the asian school of swordsmithing that simply tends to make weapons more beefy as a matter of course.

>> No.27869853

>>27868004
>>27869146
>>27869204
Dat circlejerk.

Daily reminder that Bruce Lee never competed in tournaments; that all of the stories of his Hong Kong streetfights are unconfirmed; that his one recorded serious fight with Wong Jack Man ended with his victory or defeat depending on whether you ask "Bruce Lee's closest friends and family" or a neutral observer, and he declined a second, public fight like a bitch; and that although Yip Man trained him for a brief time, nowhere in his extensive writings does he mention Lee as a particularly talented student.

Lee was a hell of an actor and choreographer, but there is literally zero evidence to suggest he was as good at hitting people as he was at pretending to hit people.

>> No.27869858
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27869858

>> No.27869861

>>27867934
>Bruce Lee
>Non-lethal

>> No.27869885
File: 5 KB, 278x181, k.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27869885

>>27869808
Then why not a kusarigama?

>> No.27869900
File: 105 KB, 480x360, Kyoketsu Shoge.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27869900

>>27869885
Why not a Kyoketsu-shoge

>> No.27869901

>>27869853
we were talking about movie!Bruce Lee.
Don't worry, anon; we can separate fiction and reality here.

>> No.27869912

>>27869885
>>27869900
Sure why not, I like the flail more though personally.

>> No.27869914

>>27869900
Its...a spear point on a chain?

>> No.27869916

>>27869853
He once kicked a man so hard that it broke another mans arm. Also the whole one inch punch thing implies a fair bit of skill.

>> No.27869935

>>27869853
And? Maybe that makes him the best martial artist of all.

He was talented as a martial artist, but he was MORE talented at making people BELIEVE he was both a Martial Artist and a Big Fucking deal.

If you want to get semantical, that might make him the BEST martial artist, as between his reputation, his charisma, and his actual skills, he won every theoretical fight the best way - Without actually fighting.

Martial Arts as Transcendent style, or just step one in Sidereal martial arts of winning-before-it-actually-happens? You decide.

>> No.27869944

>>27869900
>>27869885
while I can see the kusarigame being useflus how the FUCK do you use a kyoketsu-shoge?

>> No.27869945
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27869945

>> No.27869954
File: 58 KB, 640x480, meteor hammer.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27869954

>>27869912
Then I have just the thing for you my friend.

>> No.27869964

>>27869954
Hello, beautiful.

>> No.27869967

>>27869945
why did every culture that made spears eventually decide to put fluffy fur bits and watnot just under the spearhead?

>> No.27869968

>>27869914
It's a knife with a hook on a chain

>>27869944
You throw the ring at people to entangle them and then rush up and cut their throat. Or hit them with the ring, it's heavy. Or use the hook to hook them

>> No.27869975

>>27869944
Mad skillz?

>> No.27869978
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27869978

>>27869967
They're distracting to the enemy

>> No.27869986

>>27869964
now thats a weapon with balls

>> No.27869998

>>27869774
Eh, bats are a bit heavier and less maneuverable. I'd prefer a bokken, because I have the training to make up for the lack of mass with speed.

Honestly though, my favorite bludgeon is a good rattan, like what I got comfortable with in my SCA days.

>> No.27869999

>>27869967
it's presumably fucks with opponent's attention.

>> No.27870001

>>27869967
Keeps blood off the pole, visual distraction to make it harder to the other guy to poke you accuately, looks neato.

>> No.27870003

>>27869209
THANK YOU!

Thank you very much!

>> No.27870008

>>27867378
I want to take the fencer home and cuddle her.

>> No.27870021
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27870021

>>27869986

>> No.27870036

>>27869964
Straight out of China, one of their less daft weapons.

>> No.27870045

>>27869967
>[x]touch fluffy spear

>> No.27870067
File: 24 KB, 640x427, bar mace.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27870067

Personally I prefer simple practicality.

>> No.27870081

>>27869148
Folding's main purpose is actually the proper distribution of carbon throughout the metal, actually. By the time the steel bloom's been formed up there isn't too much useless slag left to crush out. There's a bit still in there, but the real benefit of hot-work (folding et al) is just getting your carbon levels where you need them.

>>27869550
Hell, edge-on-edge contact doesn't even seem to have been too much of a no-no judging by how TSKSR sword kata and waza tend to play out.

>> No.27870092
File: 188 KB, 500x500, 1377394332128.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27870092

>>27870067
>fuck I forgot how much Detective Dee rocks

>> No.27870104

>>27869935
I...but...he...
Holy shit, you have a point. The fucker set up a perfect Art of War misdirection. And if that failed, he had a concealed carry permit and a .357 Magnum to settle shit. Deceptive, yet pragmatic. He really was the perfect fighter.

Thank you, Anon. You've restored my faith in Bruce Lee.

>> No.27870131

>>27870081
>Folding's main purpose is actually the proper distribution of carbon throughout the metal, actually. By the time the steel bloom's been formed up there isn't too much useless slag left to crush out. There's a bit still in there, but the real benefit of hot-work (folding et al) is just getting your carbon levels where you need them.


I know

>> No.27870163
File: 154 KB, 768x512, 1382126646582.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27870163

>> No.27870180

>>27870104
He also won a boxing competition in his youth so I still wouldn't want to tango with him. To be honest I wouldn't want to fight anyone as muscly as Bruce Lee even if he wasn't the best fighter around. He also won a salsa competition or something.

>> No.27870186

>>27870081
Yeah, this. Japanese iron ore is pretty badly impure, but most of the impurities in it are actually gone before the metal ever receives the first blows of the smith's hammer.

>> No.27870206

>>27870163
Jesus, those fucking Nips knew how to make a kickass spear.

>> No.27870245

>>27868046
No, Yes, Yes, No. Read a book nigger.

>> No.27870252
File: 72 KB, 1485x1010, 1381013935781.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27870252

>>27870206
Have a Malay rifled flintlock

>> No.27870291
File: 57 KB, 390x560, son, are you srs.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27870291

>>27870252
>Flintlock

Son.

>> No.27870307
File: 150 KB, 1272x714, jumonji.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27870307

>>27869064

>> No.27870332

>>27870245
I'd say it's more like No, Yes, No, Yes. Katanas don't really hold their edge any better than a Euro sword, but they're more likely to be destructively warped rather than break off completely. Even in the infamous test .gif the katana doesn't SNAP, it's just permanently bent.

>> No.27870349

>>27870291
In my defence, I only saw the thumbnail

>> No.27870358

>>27870332
I say yes there because the hardness of the edge would keep the edge sharp, but brittle.

>> No.27870369

>>27870332
they are NOT tougher to break though.

>> No.27870379

>>27869064
Katakama Yari looks like a Chinese Dagger-Axe

>> No.27870381
File: 66 KB, 750x563, 1367746525444.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27870381

>>27870349
Have a Jian in apology

>> No.27870414

>>27870381
I dont generally like asian blades but thats a sexy sword.

fuck whats going on with me that I get hard looking at swords and armor now.

>> No.27870418

>>27870369
I dunno, I haven't seen too many snapped katanas outside of fiction but I've heard of a lot of ones that get warped from excessive impacts.

>>27870358
The hardness and brittleness of a katana's edge is really kind of overstated. They chip basically in the same way Euro swords do.

>> No.27870439

>>27870379
Probably descended from them. They're my personal favorite of the Jap spear designs. When I heard Song of Swords was supposed to have them as a weapon I fechtgasmed.

>> No.27870452

>>27870414
you rolled a 1 to resist gaining a fetish

>> No.27870466
File: 245 KB, 1691x1400, 1376467815933.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27870466

>> No.27870494

>>27870418
>I dunno, I haven't seen too many snapped katanas outside of fiction but I've heard of a lot of ones that get warped from excessive impacts.
Ive seen them break easily when someone scoops a cut on tatami. then again its not the swords fault its bad form.

>> No.27870517

>>27870494
Yeah, I've seen them break from bad form too. But all weapons do that.

>> No.27870519
File: 65 KB, 482x798, 1381029217897.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27870519

>> No.27870554

>>27869745
Fucking this. They're not civilized weapons, but damn it I love a good beatstick.

Fun fact: An old euphemism for "cudgel" was "Plymouth cloak". It came from the habit of destitute Crusaders, returning to England by way of Plymouth, of cutting a stout club from the woods and availing themselves of the cloak and purse of the first traveler they met with it.

How fucking Hoss is that?

>> No.27870564

>>27870494
First I've heard of it, and I've seen quite a few people hilariously botch tameshigiri attempts. Usually a bit of the tatami roll gets stuck on the blade in midair instead of splitting all the way, heh.

>> No.27870634

>katanas don't break like glass from contact

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_llzy-IdYNs

>> No.27870638

>>27870466
What the fuck, is that a female Lu Bu weilding a Chainsaw Glaive? This is like some strange combination of 40k and Dynasty Warriors.

Stop the internet, I want to get off.

>> No.27870664

>>27870634
thats a wallhanger man any piece of shit would fail when slammed on a table. they are made to be pretty not useable.

>> No.27870668

>>27869325
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ9DJZAoq3g

Imagine if he had a real weapon.

>> No.27870696

>>27870668
yeah hes an improvised weapon master

>> No.27870736
File: 88 KB, 1280x533, 1280px-Antique_Japanese_(samurai)_daisho_koshirae..jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27870736

>>27870664
that's probably the joke

>> No.27870791

>>27869770
Flails are fucking crazy. They're banned in the SCA for a reason. I saw a dude make one from a tennis ball, duct tape, and paracord that punched right through one of our heater shields. These shields will withstand a full-force blow from a 16 ounce rattan delivered by a guy who trains specifically to beat people with sticks. The 8 oz tape-wrapped tennis ball punched through one like a goddamn bullet. Centrifugal force is a bastard.

>> No.27871129

Daily reminder that thanks to overenthusiastic backlash, the following are now regarded as true katana facts on /tg/

>katanas literally have no effect against anything other than unarmed peasants
>against actual soldiery, it would be better to go unarmed than use a katana
>Japanese steel is so brittle that a katana will shatter if dropped from waist height
>it takes three Samurai with katanas to equal one European with rapier and main gauche
>the sharpness of katanas is overrated; katanas are really bludgeoning weapons
>katanas cannot be used to thrust
>saying anything non-negative about a katana = full GRORIOUS NIPPON weeaboo
>sabres, tulwars, scimitars and falchions however were solid, dependable weapons and they're also clean of weeaboo associations.

>> No.27871254

katanas are cool tho

>> No.27871387

>>27869978
Now, I can't stop picturing the enemy soldier compulsively batting at the tassels like a cat.

>> No.27871524
File: 59 KB, 246x291, dadao-in-out.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27871524

Dadao here

Just being way cooler than any other sword

>> No.27871553

>>27871524
Muh han brother

>> No.27871614

>>27870414
I know the feeling, except it usually happens with guns. /k/ has this way of making gun porn into actual porn in your head.
>nuggets with good finishes
>WWII tanks
yummy

>> No.27871919

>>27869148
>the steel of a katana didnt have the same type of temper many european swords of the same time period had

So you're saying Katanas had bad tempers? Does that mean they were unbalanced?

>>27869164

Limit damage to calibre of gun, thus the SoB-effect (wherein an item based power available from the start of the game seems good until the stat based powers of other character levels past the item - taken from SoB in 40k RPGs, who start with power armor and bolters).

to be fair, I just realised that in a system where there's no other kind of ranged weapon like bows then you just stat them like they were bows.

>> No.27871967

>>27867378
Apparently the french milita were pigeon toed and cross eyed.

Now it all makes sense.

>> No.27871968

>>27871919
no the temper just helps it be more durable. and katana are simple blade heavy by design. they cut well for being rather short sabers.

>> No.27873425

>>27871919
From what I understand katana had a fairly good temper, if I remember right.

Man, where's KM, he's the go-to guy for this stuff.

>> No.27873710

>>27868004
Technically the way the nunchaku works pretty much lends to the general statement, though establishing some kind of concrete hierarchy of nonlethal weapon effectiveness and trying to judge according to it is obviously a stupid notion. They build speed via rotation around the chord or chain, allowing it to build additional force without need for additional direct input. It lets it retain a certain effectiveness independent of the user's build, though training is more of an issue. They're hard to block because of the size and speed they're used at, and the general size and solidarity of either handle/bludgeoning end means that solid but generally nonlethal damage can be reliably dealt just about anywhere that's not the crown of the head. The way the cord/chain works also allows subtle hand wrist and arm motions to change direction quickly. Where as a larger weapon generally commits you to striking in a particular direction with all the pros and cons of it once you've put the force behind it, a nunchaku can go from a swing to a backhanded return or other directional changes without much effort.

The biggest drawbacks are that blocking is a little more complicated and generally negate the potential to attack for a short time, and the additional reach is only moderate, giving a small edge over things like knives but not much help against something with the reach of a sword unless you really know what you're doing in general (armed or not), enough to stay out of the blade's way while actually closing distance with the attacker, which is generally harder and more dangerous than it sounds. Then there's also the fact that you can just end up hitting your self, not just by not knowing what you're doing, but by losing control when/if you or the nunchaku get hit.

>> No.27873750

Just curious, did the Japanese have any sort of shield, or is that too dishonorable?

>> No.27873849
File: 950 KB, 1800x1112, 1354750720974.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27873849

>>27873750
They used to. They dropped it in favour of horse archery some time between the Asuka and Heian periods, I think. Afterwards, the only shields used were large pavises.

>> No.27873959
File: 168 KB, 1315x573, KMexplains1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27873959

>>27873425
While I'm posting, I screenshotted KMs explanations on Japanese metal refining.

tl;dr there was nothing bad about it, they just had a different method.

>> No.27873991

>>27867378
Why has that pepperbox pistol got a revolver cylinder on it? I know that Japan cannot into guns, but come on. At least some research has to have gone into this.

>> No.27874055

>>27867934

Its also worth noting those are not weapons.

there Farming implements

>> No.27874137

>>27873991
It's a fantasy illustration, of course there was no research put into it. Even in the west that applies to most depictions of weapons in fiction.

>> No.27874153

I would like to point out that China has the best ancient weapons.

>> No.27874214

>>27874055
How would nunchacku be used for farming?

>> No.27874371
File: 65 KB, 400x489, highimpactsexualviolence.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27874371

>>27874153
post pictures of your favorites

do iiiiit

>> No.27874461

>>27874214
They are grain flails for beating the kernel off of rice.

>> No.27874900

>>27874461
And kamas are used for cutting them off.

>> No.27875289

>>27869663
funny, I have the same issue holding swords two-handed, but I'm fine with polearms

>> No.27875466

>>27870638
this ride goes forever, anon

>> No.27875653
File: 106 KB, 1600x721, 1834028-ac6_cfa44.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27875653

>>27871614
for some reason this plane, and only this plane, gives me this, despite being fictional

>> No.27875836

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.
Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.
Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:
(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork
(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork
Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?
tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

>> No.27876167

>>27868763
>Imma show him a broadsword!
>Uses the pleb tier Italian version

Laddy, do you Jacobite?

>> No.27877372

>>27867378
Japanese guns were for a long time better than European ones, having better accuracy and being more reliable. The Japanese didn't have flintlocks, tho (Japan doesn't have easy access to flint), instead of just using matchlock arquebuses so when flintlocks started to become more common in Europe they fell behind the curve. Also because Togugawa banned firearms when he unified Japan under his rule to keep his rivals from using them to depose him.

>> No.27877483

>>27868046
Katanas are designed to be lightweight and sharp. They way they're constructed (the back of the blade is made out of a softer metal so it can absorb some of the impact) makes them more durable than you'd expect from such a thin blade, but they're still not very durable (hit something hard at the wrong angle and the blade is liable to snap). They were very good at cutting down lightly armoured opponents, as the blade could be swung quickly and was sharp enough to cut leather or padded cloth, as well as flesh, with little effort. Not very good against metal armour, tho. Metal armour was pretty rare in Japan, so that wasn't a huge problem (samurai might wear lamellar mail, and there are even a few examples of Japanese full plate armour, but the common soldier didn't have metal armour).

Broadswords are heavier and typically not a sharp (they're still plenty sharp, but there is little need to make them as sharp as you had to make a katana), but aren't likely to shatter if you hit something hard. Probably somewhat less effective against large amounts of lightly armoured opponents since with the katana you can swing the blade quicker and with less force, but infinitely better against an opponent in heavy armour (hit a guy with pletemail with a katana, and you're likely to break you blade. Hit them with a broadsword and you can dent their armour. A warhammer would probably be more effective than eighter, since they're pretty much made for denting and/or piercing armour).

>> No.27877552

>>27877483
>designed to be lightweight and sharp
They're designed to be katanas. The only person qualified to discuss what they're designed to be is whoever came up with the design over five centuries ago.

>Such a thin blade
The blades on katanas are relatively fat, especially when compared to, say, your average longsword.

>Not very good against metal armour, tho.
Not much worse than any other sword. Techniques in koryu exist for half-swording and attacking gaps in armour.

>Metal armour was pretty rare in Japan
>Common soldier didn't have metal armour
There was shitloads of the stuff produced for the sengoku jidai, which lasted over a century.

>they're still not very durable
>blade liable to snap
>hit a guy with pletemail with a katana, and you're likely to break you blade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lc5Xv0Vc-I

Kabuto wari is the frankly bizarre practice of smacking helmets with katanas. It damages the swords, yes, but it's proof that they have far more durability than many people will admit.

>> No.27877594

>>27875836

I was waiting for that.

>> No.27877784

>>27877552
But for a lot of kabuto wari they used pimped up naginata blades, not katanas.

>> No.27877850

>>27868266
>Jitte
Ahww shit, one of the few things I like to add in from the east when it comes to worldbuilding.

>> No.27878166

>>27875836
> inb4 weabo? inb4 weabo

>> No.27878266
File: 20 KB, 250x268, Pokeyman Blastoise.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27878266

>>27875836
Sure.

>> No.27878682

>>27877552
Hell, just the fact that in kenjutsu one does parry actively (and often quite aggressively) with them is proof enough that they're plenty durable.

>> No.27878705

>>27868232

The yumi is pretty banging for a bow and was designed to allow easy use on a horseback despite being a "long bow"

>> No.27878723

>>27878705
It's certainly an ingenious design.

Korean bows, though? Now there's a nice weapon.

>> No.27878726

>>27878705
One also has to keep in mind that a composite horn-and-sinew bow...probably wouldn't last long in much of Japan. Japan's quite a bit more humid than the Mongolian steppes. That kind of weather EATS composite bows.

>> No.27878741

>>27878723
>You are now imagining a world in which Silla took over the Peninsula, had a Japanese inter-marriage and conquered the Jurchens and Manchu.

>> No.27878918

>>27867378
Naginata because it takes less strength to wield than most similar western and keeps suckers off you, which is hella important if you're not extremely good. Better than a spear because it deals slashing damage.

>> No.27878943

>>27878918
I think you'll find that European and Japanese polarms of similar dimensions and materials tend to weigh the same, and thus require similar strength to wield.

You'll also find that all spears can do "slashing damage". It's not a pool cue, it's a big fucking knife on a long stick. They all have a good amount of leverage, and a good amount of blade.

>> No.27878954

>>27878918
I'd rather have the spear, personally. More likely to find a vulnerable spot in armor via a thrust than a swing.

'Course, as has been demonstrated, the Japanese made some damn good spears too.

>> No.27878977

>>27878943
Yeah, the naginata was just as popular historically with samurai men and wasn't designed as a lightweight "women-only" weapon. They're the reason samurai armor included greaves.

>> No.27879080

>>27877372
They came up with some clever ways of keeping the match dry and up-scaled the kill shit factor of matchlocks overall, then they made probably more than anyone else at the time to go kill themselves, Chinese and Koreans. I think in a lot of ways, Japan was probably defined by the gun more than the sword ever 'held a match to' in terms of forming its invasions, wars and shit like swords and spears where only really kept around because they had so many of the fucking things.

The Edo period had some gun production in it, they still had them around but that era in of itself was comparatively peaceful for the time, it is something of a myth perpetuated by modern media glamorising some aspects and shitty research that samurai wouldn't use them or they where the bane of their existence. Quite few rolled up to fights with a gun, for the simple purpose of ending some other angry motherfuckers with a round through the head :)

>> No.27879163

>>27879080
What's funny is that, during the Imjin War, the initial Korean and Chinese assessment of the Japanese war machine was that their biggest weaknesses were in RANGED combat; they felt the Japanese were very dangerous if allowed to get to grips with them but couldn't shoot for shit. After the first invasion was defeated, they were forced to reassess their enemies' shooting competency.

>> No.27879183

>>27869853
>tournaments
>an indication of fighting ability

point earning circle jerks sure are important

>> No.27879199

>>27871387
>implying that wasn't their original use
>implying thats not why there are no longer any cat people in the world

>> No.27879216

>>27870638
>>27870466
Stop the internet I want to get ON

>> No.27879219
File: 221 KB, 706x871, 6d01fe19e70afc542a2b4a3b6e801039b4ece831.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27879219

>>27870638

Honestly I'd make samurai in fantasy games just weild chainswords, solves all this faff.

Actually, make magical chainswords the top tier swords in generals, like all those magical electro-knuckle-dusters you get in fallout.

>> No.27879231

>>27879216
The internet stops for no-one. You have to make a running jump

>> No.27879256
File: 116 KB, 890x900, 0661595f4c3190a936408e7058d31b2960cc600d.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27879256

>>27879231

That would explain why the internet is full of barbarians and wizards.

>> No.27879470
File: 324 KB, 1280x923, Nambunade.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27879470

Grorious kamikaze pistol.

>> No.27882388
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27882388

>> No.27882441

>>27870379
The use of the perpendicular bit is probably the same as a dagger axe. You can also just poke someone with the yari head as usual.

>> No.27882498

>>27879080
It depends on what you mean. If you mean "the sword" to mean the katana, then yes, I agree. If you mean "the sword" to mean "traditional melee combat", I'd have to disagree. The Japanese only got guns about 50 years before the Tokugawa banned everyone but them owning them and had 200 years of peace. As far as its invasions go, fair enough, but they only had one. And even in that war, the Koreans were more scared of Japanese in melee than their guns. They considered the Japanese poor shots, but Koreans were too cowardly to engage in melee, and they broke and ran from the katanas of destruction.

>> No.27884879

>>27882498
oh my god your an idiot. the koreans lost because a storm fucking wrecked their entire campaign. it sunk most of their ships katana did not do jack shit.

>> No.27884963

>>27884879

No man, that was the reason why the US dropped the bombs on Japan - the Kamikaze had sunk their fleet and shit.

Without it, their horse archers would've totally owned the Samurai up and down the island, as it turned out that the leather armoru they were using was impervious to their katanas.

>> No.27884972

>>27884879
Different war, buddy.

>> No.27885040

>>27884963
no idea what war you are talking about here

>>27884972
then I apologise

>> No.27885415

>>27882498
Well, they had only the one attack during the samurai period; there was another invasion of Korea during the Yamato period that also failed--though rather more spectacularly than the Imjin War did.

And then of course there was the Mongol invasion OF Japan, which was primarily defeated via Mother Nature though I've heard that there was a fairly sizable battle fought on Japan's beaches before the storm hit that the Japanese won.

>> No.27885448

>>27882441
I always figured you used it to help fend off attacks and control the enemy's weapon, or hook and trip your opponent. Not sure if you could actually use that jutting-out point in a swing like it were, say, a bec de corbin.

>> No.27885501

>>27885415
if your thinking the one I think you are the only reason the japanese won was because the mongols had no food, basically starved, and their entire supply of gunpowder exploded before the fighting started.

>> No.27885914

>>27885501
If he means the Battle of Koan, that's unlikely; it was still at a relatively early stage of the invasion and the Mongols should still have been well-stocked with provisions.

>> No.27887383

>>27884879
Actually the Japanese used their katanas to cut the storm before it reached the Japanese ships.

>> No.27887548
File: 229 KB, 250x327, bravo.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27887548

>>27887383

>> No.27887749

>>27887383
I wouldn't bat an eye if this happened in some shounen anime.

>> No.27887774

>>27875836

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much worse than that. Much, much worse than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 120 Yen (that's about $1) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can't even cut wooden boards with my katana.
Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce some of the biggest pieces of shit known to mankind.
Katanas are barely half as sharp as European swords and half as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can't cut through at all. I'm pretty sure a katana would break trying to cut a knight wearing full plate with any kind of slash.
Ever wonder why feudal Japan never bothered conquering Europe? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Knights and their Oakeshott types X through XXII of destruction. Even in World War II, Japanese soldiers targeted the men with the mamelukes first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the worst sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require worse stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:
(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d4 Damage
x2 Crit
-2 to hit and damage
Can never count as Masterwork
(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d6 Damage
x2 Crit
-1 to hit and damage
Can never count as Masterwork
Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?
tl;dr = Katanas need to do much less in d20, see my new stat block.

>> No.27887902

>>27887774
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much worse than that. Much, much worse than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself purchased a genuine katana in a set of five in Denmark for 200 Crowns (that's about $80) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can't even cut sheets of paper with my katana.
Japanese factories spend hours working on a single katana and fold it up to zero times to produce some of the biggest pieces of shit known to mankind.
Katanas are barely as sharp as European swords and as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can't cut through, a katana also can't cut through. I'm pretty sure a katana would break trying to cut a knight wearing full plate with any kind of slash.
Ever wonder why feudal Japan never bothered conquering Europe? That's right, they were really far away. Even in World War II, Japanese soldiers targeted the naval vessels first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the worst sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require worse stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d4 Damage
x2 Crit
-2 to hit and damage
Can never count as Masterwork
(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d6 Damage
x2 Crit
-1 to hit and damage
Can never count as Masterwork
Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?
tl;dr = Katanas need to do much less in d20, see my new stat block.

>> No.27887937

>>27887902
You're right. Japan was really far from Europe.

>> No.27888181

>>27877483
>lightweight
Except they arent. Unless European longswords are lightweight now

>> No.27888206

>>27888181
its weird how people think the fucking fat ass blade is lighter than the thin fucking blades of longswords

>> No.27888269

>>27884879
1.) That's the Mongolian Invasion that happened 400 years before the Imjin War
2.) They didn't have guns during the Mongolian Invasion of Japan.

>> No.27888301

>>27885448
You could probably use it for both and more. I dunno, I've never looked beyond your basic "pointy end on a stick" style of yari.

>> No.27889127
File: 33 KB, 395x271, Tyrant Xerxis.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27889127

So what are the weapons that Tyrant Xerxis uses called...I'm pretty sure they have an asian origin, and I can remember seeing them in some animu or another, but I never got their actual name...

>> No.27889149

>>27889127
I mean, I know they're the pillars of Halaak, but what are the actual weapons called.

>> No.27889381

>>27889127

Tetsubo?

>> No.27889713
File: 40 KB, 588x360, Kilij.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27889713

>>27889381
Ahh... thank you. Shoulda remembered that...I feel stupid now. As penance, I offer Kilij

>> No.27889756

>>27870180

I could go for some salsa right now.

>> No.27889933
File: 112 KB, 1024x382, Teppo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27889933

Tanegashima

They have better sights than their European counterparts as well as rainboxes to protect their matches from rain

>> No.27890203

>>27889933
>They have better sights than their European counterparts as well as rainboxes to protect their matches from rain
Specifically, they have both front and rear sights. European weapons of the time, and even much after the time, only had front sights.
They had also perfected the snapping mechanism which so commonly extinguished the European's matches rather than setting the gun off.

>> No.27890304

>>27890203
If you look at a European matchlock for comparison, you'll see that the little arm on a teppo points AWAY from the user, which probably much safer, eyeball-wise.

>> No.27893623

Rolled 14

>>27889713
yum

>> No.27897318

One friendly bump.

Lots of information and weapon pics here.

>> No.27897391
File: 81 KB, 2722x228, 27173.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27897391

>>27890203
Nonsense.

This is German snap-matchlock musket from the second half of the 16th century which clearly has front and rear sights.

>> No.27897413
File: 165 KB, 2782x661, 27173_b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27897413

>>27897391

>> No.27897439

>>27897391
People try to make the maps out to be hazing weapons geniuses but overlook all of Europe's technological wonders. They had tanks in Europe in the 16th century.

>> No.27897452
File: 180 KB, 2779x773, 27173_c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27897452

>>27897413

>> No.27897538

>>27889933

Now I might just be deluded, but I visited the Zeughaus recently and there were ...well still enough 16th century guns to outfit an army with and plenty of them did have front and rear sights.

>> No.27897615

>>27869146
Heh.

"Lee-thal"

>> No.27897745

>>27897439

Da Vinci doesn't count. That just wouldn't be fair to others.

>> No.27897780

>>27897745
Didn't me davinci I meant talhoffer. His fechtbuch detailed tanks armored bombs a metal bug things. Etc.

>> No.27897897
File: 109 KB, 2707x335, 27171.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27897897

>>27897391
Wheel-lock musket from the same time period.

This one too, has both front and rear sights (the front sight is missing, but the place where it was meant to be can clearly be seen).

It should be kept in mind that the wheel-lock mechanism was way more advanced than what the Japanese had at the time. Thought it was also expensive as hell and only affordable to the military elite, which meant that it was only used for hunting weaponry of aristocrats and heavy cavalry side-arms.

>> No.27897908
File: 211 KB, 2699x816, 27171_b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27897908

>> No.27897916
File: 233 KB, 2771x902, 27171_c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27897916

>> No.27897923

arent japanese bows frigging huge

yet arent as good as an english longbow?

>> No.27897931
File: 203 KB, 2739x494, 27171_d.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27897931

>> No.27897940
File: 290 KB, 2763x683, 27171_e.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27897940

>> No.27897956
File: 163 KB, 2574x578, 27171_f.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27897956

>> No.27897965

>>27897780
Metal bug things filled with explosives and with scythed wheels

>> No.27898002

>>27877483
>Katanas are designed to be lightweight and sharp.
Katanas were heavier than the equivalent European straight longsword, because they were actually thicker and didn't have a fuller.

>> No.27898020

>>27897923

>arent japanese bows frigging huge

yes, they are, the yumi (the samurai's bow) at least. It's why they are called LONGbows.

>yet arent as good as an english longbow?

The smaller, simpler versions aren't. THe yumi has better range and can be fired from horseback, but is impractical for massed troops due to being very expensive and time consuming to make and maintain.

>> No.27898079

>>27869781
Thats what the shield is for

>> No.27898110

>>27869944

With difficulty?

>> No.27898179

>>27897897
>It should be kept in mind that the wheel-lock mechanism was way more advanced than what the Japanese had at the time. Thought it was also expensive as hell and only affordable to the military elite, which meant that it was only used for hunting weaponry of aristocrats and heavy cavalry side-arms.
The wheel lock is the expensive and delicate answer to the question the Japanese solved with a cheap lacquered box and better built matchlocks. You seem to be of the mistaken opinion that each successive lock is definitively better than the last and that weapons technology is a straight progression.

>>27897923
Yes, no.

>>27898002
Guys, stop responding to Lindybeige.

>> No.27898347

>>27898179
>The wheel lock is the expensive and delicate answer to the question the Japanese solved with a cheap lacquered box and better built matchlocks.
But a laquer box makes your pistol harder to conceal. Only wheellocks can be easily hidden and quickly fired without risking setting your clothes alight or risking accidental discharges

>> No.27898369
File: 1.69 MB, 2964x840, Wheellock_mechanism_explained.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27898369

>>27898179
>You seem to be of the mistaken opinion that each successive lock is definitively better than the last and that weapons technology is a straight progression.
Did you read my post? Since when does "more advanced" imply "definitively better"?

The wheel lock was technologically far more advanced, though as I said: it was expensive as hell and impossible to repair by anyone who wasn't an expert. That is why it never was widespread among infantry weaponry. For cavalry sidearms however, the wheel lock was a great solution - superior to the matchlock - including the Japanese variant.

>> No.27898459

>>27898347
If you have it concealed, you're not going to have to worry about rain putting out your match, are you?

>>27898369
>Did you read my post? Since when does "more advanced" imply "definitively better"?
Since otherwise your point has no relevance. Why should it wheel locks be kept in mind at all? Especially as a heavy cavalry side-arm? Japan got heavy cavalry right before they got the guns to decimate heavy cavalry with revolving fire (though they had one line of gunners being cycled several sets of guns being loaded in the lines behind them as opposed to the European method of having three lines loading their own guns cycling around). And what makes it superior to the matchlock pistol (and, yes, Japan had these) for heavy cavalry anyway?

The only problem Japan didn't fix with the design of the matchlock was the fact you needed to keep a match lit. As mentioned earlier, they did figure out how to keep it lit better than the Europeans, but they still needed a match.

>> No.27898518

>>27875653
>mmm yeah, work those curves
>I'mma penetrate your combustion chamber

>> No.27898561
File: 371 KB, 2769x1534, 27178.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27898561

>>27898459
>Since otherwise your point has no relevance.
It does, because the previous post seemed to imply that Japan was innovating gun technology while Europe was sitting on their asses, when technologically wise Europe was way ahead, though not on a large scale.

>what makes it superior to the matchlock pistol (and, yes, Japan had these) for heavy cavalry anyway?
It was more resilient to the stresses while riding on horseback and more reliable when it comes to firing as intended.

>> No.27898571
File: 210 KB, 2540x1020, 27178_b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27898571

>> No.27898577
File: 257 KB, 2808x1130, 27178_c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27898577

>> No.27898589
File: 140 KB, 2692x472, 27178_d.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27898589

>> No.27898647

>>27898561
> It was more resilient to the stresses while riding on horseback and more reliable when it comes to firing as intended.
More resilient than what? Glass? More reliable than... what, a snap-matchlock which hit the pan with such force it extinguished the match and splashed your powder going everywhere?

> when technologically wise Europe was way ahead
But far behind in equipping their soldiers with cheap reliable guns; which is the important part.

>> No.27898708
File: 25 KB, 608x256, 1333691588068.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27898708

Thulsa Doom answered question back in the 80s OP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2EQ0FlVks4

>> No.27898861

>>27898647
>More resilient than what?
More resilient than matchlock weaponry.

>But far behind in equipping their soldiers with cheap reliable guns; which is the important part.
I wouldn't call it "far behind". European warfare was very much mercenary-based in the 16th century, while Japan was still very deeply feudal. Due to that, the equipment of troops would also vary quite a bit and often it wasn't a matter of "equipping their troops" because the mercenaries hired would bring their own. Rather than Europe sitting on their asses or being unable to find a cheap solution for the masses, it was more that it wasn't a necessity since equipment was still a more personal issue. Later with snaphance and flintlock, cheap enough solutions were around and the line infantry armies of the 18th century easily surpassed anything Japan ever had in that direction.

>> No.27898899

>>27898861
It should also be considered that firearms weren't yet as useful.

- They had to be fielded in great numbers due to a lack of accuracy
- Their range was still very limited and plate armour offered reasonable protection
- They couldn't yet stop cavalry charges

This only changed in the 18th century.

>> No.27899146

>>27898861
>Later with snaphance and flintlock, cheap enough solutions were around and the line infantry armies of the 18th century easily surpassed anything Japan ever had in that direction.
Western guns only started surpassing equivalent Japanese ones around the early-mid 1800s, with Minne balls and rifling and repeating rifles and such.

>> No.27899260

>>27878918
Well spears are more "Back the fuck off or I'll cut you"

Where a spear is "Get off your high horse! Literally!"

>> No.27899290

>>27899260
Well the naginata are more "Back the fuck off or I'll cut you"

Where a spear is "Get off your high horse! Literally!"

>fixed. God damn am I tired

>> No.27899326

Screw Japan and Europe; India had the best weapons:
>Katars
Can't decide if you want to punch a guy or stab him? Use a katar and do both at the same time!
>Chakram
Yeah, as if you were going to kill anything with those tiny shurikens. If you want a bladed throwing weapon, THIS should be your first choice
>Khukri
Yeah yeah, technically from Nepal, but screw you, india was a big user of it as well. You know how good this knife is? It's still commonly used today, that's how

>> No.27899337

>>27888206
Not weird.

It's fact. The average katana was about 4 pounds, because it has so many layers. That's what happens when you got shitty metal, you need more to compensate.

Longswords had higher quality stuff and required less. Specifically it weighs a pound less than its eastern counterpart.

>> No.27899365

>>27899326
Didn't they also have those metal weapons that were kinda like whips? hard as hell to master, but you could sweep just swing it about like a flail and it'd cut like a sword.

I forget what they're called.

>> No.27899384

>>27888206
Actually, many of the thinner blades were heavier. In particular, the rapier, which people often think of as the fastest sword ever, commonly weighed as much as many two-handed swords of the time.

>> No.27899414

>>27899365
Hell yeah they did, and I excluded mentioning them for the same reason that you did. Even if you had no idea what you were doing with one, the intimidation factor of having the blade flying everywhere around you was big enough that you often didn't need to actually fight with it.

>> No.27899422

>>27899365
Urumi. They're fucking wicked weapons.

>> No.27899432
File: 33 KB, 450x300, chinese-weapon-nest-of-bees.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27899432

>>27867378
Well since you generalize the West with Europe, I'm gonna go ahead and do the same for the East.

Early on when the gun was still not quite reliable and people still relied on bows and crossbows alongside its riflemen, they could be matched by the Chinese 'Nest of Bees'.

Think shotgun with arrows. Put that in front of a cavalry charge, and those riders will be filled with high velocity arrows

>> No.27899451

>>27899384
I don't think a rapier weighed as much as a Zweihänder.

>> No.27899465
File: 99 KB, 600x450, urumi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27899465

>>27899384
>>27899414
Here we go: Urumi
Look at this shit, this guy is dual-wielding a special kind of urumi that has like, eighty blades each. You know what he's thinking?
>"Oh god there's so many blades I'm gonna end up killing myself"
You know what his enemy is thinking?
>"Oh god there's so many blades I can't get anywhere near him without him killing me"

>> No.27899483

>>27899451
That's because the Zweihander was a fucking monster. He's referring to the other 2 handed swords like the Estoc and Espada Ropera. Those weighed about the same as a Rapier.

>> No.27899489

>>27899451
They did. It's because they have to add weights to everything to get it balanced. On a normal sword, the center of gravity is somewhere around the middle; on a rapier it's right above the handguard

>> No.27899507

>>27899326
also the best steel

>>27899465
eh, people really learn to use urumi - they could be concealed as clothing IIRC

>> No.27899547

>>27899326
I didn't know Tira and Voldo were Indian.

>> No.27899582

>>27899547
Voldo might not be. His master was a weapons dealer and collector, so he'd have access to weapons from all over the world.

>> No.27899700

>>27899146
Rifling has been around since the 16th century. It wasn't common for warfare though since it was too expensive and because took too long to reload the weapons. It was used for skirmishers and sharp shooters much earlier than the 19th century though. And I'd say not having to manually ignite anything is an advantage the flintlock has over the matchlock the Japanese still used.

>> No.27899710

>>27899337
>That's what happens when you got shitty metal, you need more to compensate.
See: >>27873959

>> No.27899719
File: 333 KB, 1680x4000, sword_stats.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27899719

>>27899451
I don't think he was referring to "real" two-handed swords but to the war swords of the late middle ages, i.e. the bastard- and long swords.

>> No.27899812
File: 163 KB, 600x900, Seung_Mina___Naginata_Princess_by_Kuragiman.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
27899812

A lot of naginatas had a lanyard a foot or so long under the blade, which had a heavy weight tied to the other end. About half of all people killed by naginatas were killed using this weight, rather than the blade itself.

It's like attacking someone with a pole-arm and a flail at the same time.

>> No.27899852

>>27899719
you mean a longsword right?

>> No.27899905

That depends vastly upon the period. Renaissance soldiers were surprisingly well armored, that is why you see the diminished use of shields and an increased prevalence of large, heavy bludgeoning weapons (zweihanders fall in this category), and of course as everyone knows the pike.

I'd wager to say that yari were similar if not practically identical to western pikes. It was said that nobunaga's yari used against takeda were extremely long.

In terms of heavy/bludgeoning weapons, there is plenty of examples, e.g. tetsubo, kanabo etc. It's not like making a heavy stick with a weight on the end is hard. A katana might not be suitable for ringing someone's bell but I am positive you could do it with a naginata or similar polearm.

The yumi is an excellent bow, capable of being fired from horseback. Samurai were initially renowned not for their swordplay but rather for their archery, after all.

The katana doesn't have much use in heavy armed combat but would make a superb cavalry saber and would probably be a good marine weapon as well (where you would be unlikely to encounter armor).

>> No.27899936

>>27898861
>Due to that, the equipment of troops would also vary quite a bit and often it wasn't a matter of "equipping their troops" because the mercenaries hired would bring their own.

It's okay to not know shit, but it's always shameful to display that cluelessness so obviously.

No, they had actually accounted for soldiers not bringing their own gear at that point and leased them with whatever weapon they were supposed to wield. Somebody bringing his own gear would still be better off, as he'd be spared that and get payed more as well.

>> No.27900197

>>27879470
>Fucking Nambu
Probably the worst gun of WW2. You're better off throwing it at the enemy.

>> No.27900553

>>27899936
It's literally impossible to generalise there for the European continent as a whole. The central argument holds true anyway: European warfare was not as strictly feudal any more. It was most of all professional soldiers who fought on the battlefields opposed to peasants who were made to fight by their rulers and a bunch of household retainers. And as such, equipment also became a more personal issue opposed to a "national" issue.

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