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[ERROR] No.27422431 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

A simple question for you /tg/ but one I find myself musing over.

How to make the main antagonist of the campaign Good aligned when the majority of the PCs are Neutral with a few Goods.

>> No.27422449

Good isn't nice.

>> No.27422454

The good antagonist serves a different country.

>> No.27422477

That art is terrible.

>> No.27422503

Conflicting ideals. Like all the wars.

>> No.27422538

>the majority of the PCs are Neutral with a few Goods.
That tells us nothing about what their characters are like. Describe them in a few words at least, then we might be able to offer a fitting good-aligned antagonist.

>> No.27422561

Good guys pay better wages for quests
the bad guys keep back stabbing and fucking you over, cos the bad guys are dicks
so players dont wanna work for them

>> No.27422567

I was watching Les Mis the other day, and was trying to assign alignments to the characters for some reason. Javert gave me some trouble. He's like LG taken to such an extreme that he resembles LE. You could try something like that.

Alternatively, I remember reading a story somewhere recently about a BBEG who was trying to summon an evil god with the intention of killing it, but he would actually be unable to do so, thus bringing about a lot of bad shit.

>> No.27422581

brings in a conflict of interest
make the 'bad guy' a really nice guy
just not for their side or people
he is a force of good for his people/nation

>> No.27422604

Irreconcileable interests.

Like Last Exile, both factions are both trying to save their people.

>> No.27422622

Is this what 4e art looks like? I can finally understand why people hate 4e because of the art now.

>> No.27422637

>and was trying to assign alignments to the characters for some reason
>Not knowing that DnD alignments don't reflect actual characters

>> No.27422641

it's pathfinder

>> No.27422644


Magus from Chrono Trigger.

>> No.27422660


Google tells me it's Pathfinder.

>> No.27422666


Javert is textbook LN. In fact, he is usually given as an example of the Smite on Sight Paladin equivalent in LN.

>> No.27422690

I do realize that. I was just trying to find the closest fit.

>> No.27422693

Well now that I look at it more closely it really inspires adventure and fun. Really good art style. No wonder people say that PF art is so much better.

Just kidding, this looks like a shit smear

>> No.27422710

Good =/= right.

The BBGG might be misguided, or being manipulated. He may be too stubborn to listen to reason, or convinced that his enemies always deal in lies and betrayal and so refuse any parley.

Also Good =/= nice. Good also covers the old Chaotic Good alignment and CGs could end up taking drastic action, especially when it comes to revenge. Like an Eladrin Prince whose brother was killed - a price has to be paid, and paid in blood. All those who stand with the killed will share his fate.

>> No.27422740

>The BBGG might be misguided, or being manipulated
Easymode. Make them both right. Have diplomacy break down between two nations after tried years of sorting it out. Yes this is difficult to pull of, but it's good writing if you do.

>> No.27422749

What if you're trying to fix things that can't be fixed?

>> No.27422764


This. The party makeup, how they are Neutral and some of them are Good, and their past activities are critical to how to design a Good-aligned antagonist.

Good-aligned people are not perfect. Normally, If I was trying to do this, I'd try to find suspicious characters that the antagonist's biases could cause them to unfairly latch onto and oppose the party. For example, if someone chose to play a Drow or Hobgoblin or something like that, or if one of the Neutrals has a known criminal history.

The party will probably try to negotiate, but the person may be overly aggressive and have bad social skills, making diplomacy difficult. Although I would always make it possible when dealing with a Good-aligned character.

>> No.27422766

okaaayy... good for you?

>> No.27423001

Ah the party make up? We haven't begun much so I only have some minor make up from backstories but for sake of argument, I'll share the PC's down the line.

One is NG, the Quintessential Knight despite being half elf (likes the human side of his self more)

Human CG sorcerer that is half brother with the Knight and is full time bro to him. Totally got in some royal court shenanigans that got them them expelled from polite society and now run as some mercs supported by a minor noble house.

LG Human Cleric whom is seen as a little strange for mistaking dreams as Prophetic Visions. Especially because the latest vision told her a war was coming and the PCs are the only ones who can Stop / Make the Bloodshed Not So Bad

CN Human Ranger. Knows the forests and long time merc, genuinely a pretty chill guy until he sees something with green skin.

There's then the Tiefling Rogue of I think CN who lives by the code of stealing from people is fine, killing them isn't unless they are trying to kill you. Isn't exactly well liked but well.. tiefling.

And finally LN Monk. Few words, most of them usually snark, loyal and oathbound and all that and also a Dorf. Drunken fighter archetype because dorf.

>> No.27423025

>Like all the wars.
Competition for resources, real or perceived is more like it.

>> No.27423060

>Those are mine!
>No! Mine!
Conflicting ideals.

>> No.27423064

Those aren't ideals.

>> No.27423084

That's nice, dear. Run along now, adults are talking.

>> No.27423123


>> No.27423289

From what I'm reading from everyone else, it should probably be the tieflings fault for there being a BBGG

>> No.27423366

Have the villian be an orc nationalist trying to give his people a better place to live than whatever wasteland they curently live in so they can become self sustaining and stop raiding human villiages for food.

>> No.27423408


>> No.27423474


Ownership is absolutely an ideal.

>> No.27423498

It's not about ownership, it's about resources. Maybe you see your needing food to live as an ideal, but I don't. Conflicting definitions, I guess.

>> No.27423503


Could go the 'greater good' route?

For example the land is ruled by a king who dishes out brutal as fuck punishments for the smallest crimes (Cutting off a guys hands and feet for stealing a loaf of bread and running from the City Guard for example) however this means that the city has virtually no crime. He forces young men to join his army or their whole families are killed infront of them, however the kingdom is so well protected by said army that no invader dares try anything.

His taxes are punishing but the city has clean water and food available. Children are forced to work but the city makes tonnes of cash exporting its goods. In a sense, hes a good king. His people are protected, healthy and prosperous. But his people are terrified and unhappy. They consider him a tyrant.

Maybe a desperate resistance cell has hired you to kill him. Maybe you visit this city and notice how quiet the towns people are, their fake smiles all the more chilling. When the party confront the king in a final showdown he sighs and shakes his head. He knows that his people suffer. But do they not live? Are they not fed and warm at night, protected from the evil world outside? They are scared? SO BE IT! It is for the greater good.

Thats what I would do.

>> No.27423604


It's about ownership of those resources. "I need food to live" is not an ideal, but "I deserve to live more than you, ergo I should have the food instead of you" is.

>> No.27423626

How about 'I want my friends to live' or 'I am responsible for these people'?

>> No.27423670

Not when you conceptualize it as necessary for your people to live.

>> No.27423674


That's no different; just shifts the scale from Individual v. Individual to Community v. Community.

>> No.27423694

Fable III

>> No.27423781

Or rather, what Fable III was advertised as.

In practice, it was "Do you want to be benevolent and poor as fuck or do you want to be mustache-twirlingly evil and exploitative and only save everyone because your personal guard are tricked out to no end? And hell, scratch that second option, because all you have to do is buy a couple houses and let the game idle overnight and you can pay for war expenses yourself."

>> No.27423788


Not where I got my idea for the post from, but your right there. Also you can really have fun with. As I said, brutal punishments for the smallest crime. I was thinking more pre-emps-contact Konrad Curze but less crazy pants and more self self-righteous

>> No.27423822

You ever read/watch Watchmen?

>> No.27423868

>Good-aligned antagonist

>> No.27423893

Fair enough.

Captcha: ypassmun congress. Jamaican Congressman passing bills.

>> No.27423916

The problem with the evil options is that they drove the economy into the ground so hard the treasury was literally empty when the game started. Every town in the country was in a state of total economic collapse.

Yeah, it made land and buildings cheap, but the country was less prepared for the war against the great evil than it was before all industry was nationalized (and their factory owners killed/eaten) and given to an irredeemably insane cannibal while the population was just one day away from armed rebellion.

>> No.27423941

He was working for the greater good, just in a roundabout way that ended up killing a whole bunch of people

>> No.27423984

>working for the greater good in a roundabout way that kills lots of people
>Good alignment

>> No.27424013

Actually I think that could work if the King was Young and Impressionable. He absolutely trusts his advisor despite the fact he wears black and red robes and smells of human suffering all the time. He's been with him longer than his no good father who died under mysterious circumstances.

>> No.27424060

Actually this kinda ties into my campaign idea. Most of the PCs are monstrous races but the Paladin / knight of analogous holiness is advising the king to take a hard stance against purging all the monster races from their lands.

He does it with a heavy heart though. He knows it may be wrong, but fighting against goblins, orcs, and kobolds is the only thing keeping this alliance of men, elves, and dwarves together. With nothing to fight and so few years as allies they may turn on one another and war will begin anew.

So they must find more to fight, make this war longer so they don't get into another. The Paladin hates this of course but sees it as the only way.

>> No.27424093

>plans to save the world
>plan succeeds (however temporarily, possibly not for long thanks to one of the 'heroes')
>a few humans die in the process of saving the entire planet

Whereas your traditional good fantasy hero
>slaughters creatures for the sake of getting better at slaughtering creatures
>determines which creatures are fit for slaughter by physical features such as skin colour and fur/claws/other cosmetic differences
>seeks out these creatures in their private abodes and claim justification when they defend themselves from intruders
>after murdering them and their families, steal all their wealth
>deliver precious magical artifacts to already stinking rich kings, purely for the sake of 'completing the quest'
>become ever more powerful and achieve no lasting good ever
>definitely never help anyone for free

>> No.27424132

Don't forget only temporarily destroying Ancient Evils so they can awaken again.

Probably a scheme they got going on

>> No.27424156

Then King is not villain, advisor is.
But I like train of thought.

Villain is naive. Has good ideals, but goes too far. Does not consider consequences and implications. Will let real villain go because does want to kill.

>> No.27424595

it's pathfinder animu
fanart's gonna fanart.
>I'd be so sad if that was actual art com'd by paizo

>> No.27424648

The BBGG is morally infallible.

My BBGG in a game of antiheroes is the angel of the meaning of rightfulness. He said "fuck it, evil deserves to be banished from existence" and decided to obliterate the posibility of evil from the universe though a Xanatoss gambit that has been going on since before the party's previous encarnation.

>> No.27424680

Javert is Lawful Neutral, but taken to extremes of Lawful Stupid

>> No.27424719

The antagonist is a holy man who truly believes yhat people who do not worship his god will be doomed to live in squalor or are just a short time away from it since thats what he was like before he started worshipping. He goes around now converting all that he can, and eventually will build an army to convert the world. Because it's good for them, even when they don't know any better

>> No.27424906


3 million corpses is a few ticks above "a few humans die". And that's not counting all the bodies he racked up just to keep the conspiracy running until it hypothetically paid off (Veidt has no idea if his plan was successful or even necessary). Even the most genocidal murderhobo has trouble reaching those numbers.

Not that I'd consider murderhobos "traditional good fantasy hero", regardless of what their character sheet says.

>> No.27425032

Make it a contest. A tournament, a race around the world, a global scavenger hunt; whatever.

A bunch of different groups are competing, but none of them are the typical 'evil cheater group' you see so often in this type of plot.

Yeah, the other groups will mess with you as you try to win, sometimes directly standing in your way, but never out of malice. They're just trying to win as hard as you are. And of course, if any actually bad guys show up as minor villains, you can always expect your competitors to lend a hand.

But at the end of the day, the only people standing between your team and victory are the other teams. And as bro-tier as they might be, you're going to have to beat down every one of them before making it over the finish line.

>> No.27425111

Christ, I've never seen people miss a joke that badly.

>> No.27425184


>> No.27425220

Silly 4chan. Let's try that again.


>> No.27425293

On 4chan, it is generally difficult to tell whether someone is actually an idiot or just pretending to be.

Fortunately, in this case as well as many others, both traits are present in your posts.

>> No.27425742

If the party is majority Lawful, present the villain as a radical Anarchist who's CG trying to spread freedom to everyone, everywhere, no matter how nice a monarch might be.
Don't make him a murderer but don't make him pacifist. He goes around whooping ass and fucking up governments to liberate civilians then moving on to ruin another kingdom.
Essentially a civil-minded barbarian with a hard on for freedom and he doesn't have time to listen to your fancy dialogue about the importance of civil order.

>> No.27425915 [SPOILER] 

Have your antag use war as a business as a means to end war as a business.

>> No.27426070

Villain is brigand leader. Attacks tax collectors and nobles, then gives money to peasants. Tax money doesn't make it to city. Guards can't get paid, criminals roam free. Masons don't get paid, walls fall apart. Blacksmiths don't get paid, army has no weapons. Is bad for everyone.

Robin Hood is arsehole.

>> No.27426463 [SPOILER] 

Fun fact: My Khornate in Black Crusade Game is Sundowner

>> No.27427317

Oh my god, Revengeance was a fucking stupid game.

>> No.27427357

You mean awesome. What other game lets you parry a Metal Gear with your sword and then throw it in the air?

>> No.27427369

most pathfinder art is, at least in the core rulebook

>> No.27427386

Revengeance felt like a fan making a Medal Gear game less than a Medal Gear game itself.

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