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[ERROR] No.27139816 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

>In the aftermath of the Heresy, the Iron Warriors built a mighty bastion, the Eternal Fortress. Dorn vowed he would ‘dig Perturabo out of his hole and bring him back to Terra in an iron cage’. The battle should have favoured the traitors, but the Imperial Fists refused to die. When their ammunition ran out, they fought hand-tohand, and the trenches ran with blood. Had the Ultramarines not intervened, the two Legions would likely have annihilated each other, and to this day, their hatred persists.

So basically, Iron Warriors lost the Iron Cage.

>> No.27139834

Same battle. Two sides of propaganda.

>> No.27139842

I'm sure that's what the Imperial Fists think.

>> No.27139843

because spess mahreens can't lose, even retroactively? fucking retcons, man

>> No.27139848

The two sides tell different versions of the story.

Most likely, the closest interpretation to reality is "nobody won, because everyone got mauled to hell and back in a relatively pointless war prompted entirely by the vanity of the leaders." The only thing in question is which side got mauled worse than the other, which is a bit of a moot point since both sides lived to fight another day anyway.

>> No.27139882

>So basically, Iron Warriors lost the Iron Cage
Yeea, just the way Smurfs "won" on Escrador - by dying en masse.

>> No.27139914

>When their ammunition ran out, they fought hand-tohand
Obvious propaganda. IW get IF losked inside invard-faing fortress, there is no way IF could even reach CC, and IW have no need to go down and hit bananamarines to face while they have endless supply of bolts and shells fo fire at them from the safery of the walls.

>> No.27139940


There was no winner to the Iron Cage: Perty lost because he wanted to kill Dorn and eradicate the Fists to the last man; and failed. Dorn lost because hez wanted to capture Perty and eradicate the Iron Warriors to the last man; and failed.

The only one who can claim some form of hollow victory is Guilliman, because all he wanted was rescue Dorn and his Legion. Which he did.

>> No.27139971

It's basically the same as in Imperial Fists Index Astartes. There were always two versions of the story.

>> No.27139978

I guess GW disagrees with you there, champ.

>> No.27139983

>but the Imperial Fists refused to die
Earthshakers didn't give a fuck.
>Had the Ultramarines not intervened, the two Legions would likely have annihilated
Except it wasl like 4 thousand of IF surviors after the Cage and IW remained in the legion size with each great company being as big as corpsefuckers chapter. Considering IW could just ponder them with artillery endlesly, there is no way IF's could "annihilate" them - no matter how subborn tou are, without bolts for your bolter, batteries for your chainsword and wirh your armour almost turned into piece of scrap you have no chances against well-supplied and fortified opponents.

>> No.27140018

>There were always two versions of the story
It looks like it is actually three - in some IFs regret the iron cage incident as a terrible mistake and in other they FUCKING CELEBRATE it anniversary as their great victory. Looks like GW haven't desided about banana oppinion on this war. IW on the other hand ALWAYS tell the Iron Cage was their victory.

>> No.27140039

Fluff changes. This is the 6th edition now, your old precious Iron Cage fluff is with Necrons, 13th Black Crusade and Daemonhunters now.

>> No.27140066

But didn't he become a daemon via sacrificing the gene seed of the fists that did get ganked? I would say that's a half decent victory atleast.

>> No.27140101


The Iron Cage is basically two trolls getting into an argument with one another. They're always going to maintain that they are right, no matter what arguments the other side uses.

>> No.27140116

>Fluff changes.
EF still have only 3 successor 2-nd founding chapters, being only near 4 thousands after their asses were handled to them
IW still at legion size.

>> No.27140137

I have a question that doesn't deserve its own thread.

What's the name of the black dwarf star that appears randomly around the galaxy and spreads madness and anarchy wherever it goes, and no one knows what it is?

>> No.27140139


He did, but that is because the Chaos Gods care more for sacrifice and slaughter in their name rather than pure military objectives.

Perturabo failed to get his revenge, but the slaughter and subsequent sacrifice of enemy gene-seed was enough for the Chaos Gods to decide he was a nigga worth keeping around!

>> No.27140179

You're referring to the Tyrant Star, I think.

>> No.27140185

Tyrant Star?

>> No.27140203

I guess the writer had a lot of confidence in the Imperial Fists' skill in fighting hand-to-hand without ammo.

>> No.27140208

The Iron Cage is the Black Knight from Monty Python.

Dorn's had worse. But he still lost his arms and legs.

>> No.27140223

>Perturabo failed to get his revenge
He killed most of his brother's legion and humiliate him for bing brainless moron who willingly step into obvious trap. Then when Dorn desperatelly challenged Perty into duel, he just tell him to go fuck himself and proceed to pound him men with artillery barrage. I imagine Dorn regret his stupidity for the end of his days, so this is quite a fine revenge.

>> No.27140251

>In the millennia since the Horus
Heresy, dozens of Space Marine
Chapters have been founded from
the gene-seed of the Imperial Fists,
perhaps more than from any other
Chapter other than the

>> No.27140264


>> No.27140267

Except despite it being an obvious trap, the fists still would have fought the IW to mutual destruction.

Iron Warriors: forever butt anguished that the Imperial Fists are better at their job.

>> No.27140273

>dozens of Space MarineChapters have been founded fromthe gene-seed of the Imperial Fists
But only 3 are 2-nd founding - others get founded later.

>> No.27140283

there's no doubt about it

the Iron warriors achieved nothing, lost 400 marines and perturabo ascended into daemonhood due to his actions

it was loss to the iron warriors, not a absolute loss thanks to ultramarine intervention

>> No.27140287


Well he got the satisfaction of giving Dorn the proverbial finger, but still, Perturabo's original goal was to make the fucker cry and beg for mercy before killing him. And that didn't happen, because Dorn, despite his flaws, isn't a crybaby and would have gone down fighting to his last breath; and Guilliman decided to intervene before it could come to that!

But yes, Dorn was rather wrecked by the whole ordeal. (And Guilliman took advantage of that to force his Codex upon the man. What a dick!)

>> No.27140316

IF player. I actually like the old version of the story better.

The new ending:
Imperial Fists and Dorn would have annihilated the Iron Warriors and killed Perturabo, but would have been completely destroyed in the process.
Guilliman decided that the Imperium needed Dorn alive more than it needed Perturabo dead and stopped the fight.

It was still the "cleansing" moment for the Imperial Fists that allowed them to re-configure into a Chapter.

So now Perturabo just completely underestimated how much damage a pissed-off Dorn could/would do. Perturabo couldn't put his own neck on the line and didn't realize that others would.

I can't say I'll miss the "debates" about it though:

>hurr, killed yer leejun
n-no, w-we did it on purpose. m-moral victory
>check the scoreboard, bitch
y-you check the scoreboard, we're still here
>we daemon prince nao
ok, congrats, you're enslaved to Chaos for all eternity. Enjoy being a puppet.

>> No.27140328

>perturabo ascended into daemonhood

This alone is why it's an Iron Warrriors victory.

>> No.27140335

Dorn had already accepted the codex before he went to the Iron Cage. He just didnt split his legion up until after the battle was over.

>> No.27140345

>being a daemon prince
>being little more than a figment of the imagination of a Chaos god
pick two

>> No.27140355

>it was loss to the iron warriors
They get geneseed, both their and EF's while EF loses was irreplaceable in the nerest future. They also get fallen IF armour and weapon as their spoils.

>> No.27140365

>being little more than a figment of the imagination of a Chaos god
>still superior to lowly mortals

Pick two.

>> No.27140367

> daemonhood
> victory
Laughing competant chaos champions
Laughing Eldar
Laughing Loyalist
Laughing chaos gods

>> No.27140371

You are one of those faggots who believes that Star Wars have more than 3 movies, aren't you?

>> No.27140389

Sure, except Perturabo was ALWAYS superior to lowly mortals. In becoming a DP, he took a massive step down.

Why do you think Abbadon repeatedly refuses such an "honor"? Because he doesn't want to be a slave.

>> No.27140401

>>being a daemon prince
Yeah, it is far worse than being DEAD and have chapter masters engraving their names on your bones.

>> No.27140402

It does. There are 4 movies.

>> No.27140410

Now that he's a daemon prince, the Chaos Gods can enjoy his infinite asspain forever and ever

>> No.27140429


...about that. That's left ambiguous now too

>> No.27140430


fuck me sideways I meant that it was loss to the Imperial fists, the imperial fists lost 400 marines

>> No.27140434

>Why do you think Abbadon repeatedly refuses such an "honor"?

That's just his excuse for why he hasn't ascended yet.

One does not simply say "No" to the Dark Gods.

>> No.27140496

I'd actually say the reason is because Abbadon, despite everyone's "OH MY GOD GREATEST CHAOS CHAMPION EVAR!" is actually rather incompetent at his job. The gods keep him around because he's amusing.

>> No.27140526

I think Cruddace really must hate Graham McNeill to make his favorite Legion's high point look like suck schmucks.

What do the Iron Warriors have after that? moral victories.

>Well, um...we knocked those walls down that Dorn built. Didn't actually win the war, but hey, rubble, amirite?

>> No.27140533


Did he now? I always thought he was one of those opposing Guilliman, along with Russ and Vulkan.

>> No.27140541

>someone who hasn't read the BL supplement.

>> No.27140554

According to ADB, Abaddon can and does. Its what makes him the warmaster of chaos.

>> No.27140557

You're right. The Iron Cage was the Legion's last act of contrition for failing the Emperor.

When Guilliman prevented Dorn from killing himself, Dorn snapped out of it and realized the Codex was the way to go.

>> No.27140566

As of the BL supplement, Abaddon is actually one of the more competent guys in the setting.

>> No.27140568

>bringing ADB into it.
Well, this thread's about to go to shit.

>> No.27140574

He was originally, but he eventually gave in, and promptly launched his assault on the Iron Cage to "cleanse" his legion or somesuch, before he broke it into chapters.

>> No.27140599

...Seriously? You must be fucking with me. I need to read this now.

>> No.27140620

Does this mean that the Iron Warriors are actually the runts of the Legions now?

Black Legion: standard bearers of the Long War
Word Bearers: spreading the enlightenment of Chaos worship
T-Sons: Tzeentch has a plan
Death Guard: *cough*
World Eaters: blood's flowing, isn't it?
Emperor's Children: you can't say you aren't a little bit jelly
Alpha Legion: who the fuck even knows
Night Lords: they are now the Legion of Batman
Iron Warriors: no major successes to speak of, eternally fighting one another over a single planet covered with fortresses.

>> No.27140624

If memory serves it was Vulkan and Corax who sided with Guilliman on the codex and Russ, Dorn and Khan who were against it.

>> No.27140627

He can decline if that's what he wants. The gods agreed to not mess with his mind, thereby granting him free will. He delivers on his grudge against the Imperium, and the gods let him go about his business, because they trust that he will do good. It's a perk of being the chosen champion of Chaos; none of the gods wants for one of the others to claim the champion for itself, so they agree to share him by not forcing his decisions.

>> No.27140641

The BL supplement isnt new but apparently people need it to be spelled out for them: Not all of Abaddon's Black Crusades eere aimed at Cadia, or even at bringing down the Imperium with a single blow.

The only one withat objective is the 13th and the 13th is the only one that failed (though it seems GW rolled it back to the beginning.)

>> No.27140648

Seems Ultras are always coming to the Fists' rescue.

Must get tiring.

>> No.27140654

i think the Emperor's Children are the smallest legion/warband.

it states that they were among the largest but the other chaos legions got sick of their faggyness proceeded to murder their flaming asses.

>> No.27140658

No, Corax was pro-Codex, but Vulkan opposed it. Of course, the Salamanders were under 1000 heads at that point, so it really wasn't an issue

>> No.27140665

well considering where the 2 chapters are based out of it must quite the drive for the ultras.

i hope the IF at least compensate them for the gas.

>> No.27140678

I think you mean Pete Haines.

>> No.27140681

I know, but if you haven't really done anything worth a damn strategically speaking in 10,000 years after 13 campaigns, then you honestly don't deserve the title of Warmaster.

>> No.27140685

Really could have used your help defending the Imperial Palace, smurf.

>> No.27140695

Yup. Every Black Crusade was a success. He keeps a cabal of Sorcerers to tell him the future, and he even tricked a Tzeentchian Daemon Prince into servitude. I'm not sure if he ever actually lost a battle in the supplement, as he was described as competent enough to only fight the battles he knew he could win.

>> No.27140698

fuck. yeah. nevermind.

>> No.27140702

then maybe it was khan.
I remember the sides being pretty even in the original IA fluff.

>> No.27140717

Hes the only chaos champion whose attacked anything worth a damn in the past 10k years.

>> No.27140724

Iron Warriors invaded Medusa, that one time. And they seriously fucked up a Forge World with the Obliterator Virus, IIRC. And Honsou took on all of Ultramar and got away with it, although he didn't topple it like he planned to.

>> No.27140747

Looks like the bar was set rather low then.

>> No.27140750

So, basically nothing important

>> No.27140753

>it states that they were among the largest
Nah, they were always small. There were just 200-something when Fulgrim took command, and there were 50-something thousand by the time of the Heresy. Compare that with Sons of Horus and Word Bearers, who were both 100,000 strong.

>> No.27140768

Apparently Perturabo has been lobbying for Abbadon to be sacked by the Chaos Powers so that he can become Warmaster.

Of course, Abbadon can easily exist outside the Warp, while Perturabo no longer can

>> No.27140770

>Every Black Crusade was a success.
really? ALL of them?
I'm willing to grant you a few of them were more successful than others but even in the books the other warband leaders like Lorgar and Kor are getting sick of Abaddon's failures.

I'm sure he thinks they've been successes but maybe the chaos gods have just been fucking with him. as a joke.
"I'm bleeding, making me the victor! Now to return to the eye of terror to plan out my next crusade!"

>> No.27140791

That's my primary thought as well on the matter. How does he know Tzneech isn't just fucking with him?

>> No.27140870

"Don't you know it? A shining battalion of Ultramarines, high on every wall around the palace, fought the unwashed hordes who dared to attack the Imperium. When The Emperor and Guilliman went to fight Horus they found the poor man had painted his armor blue and had glued horse shoes to his pauldrons. The Emperor was mortally wounded, but Horus had been no match for Guilliman. Sanguinius, who was also there, killed himself out of shame, realizing then that he would never be an Ultramarine."

>> No.27140877

>implying Tzeentch isn't fucking with everyone

>implying Tzeentch isn't fucking with himself

>implying Tzeentch isn't actually Slaanesh

>> No.27140889

>The gods keep him around because he's amusing.
The gods keep him around because they want the Long War to last forever, annd somwone competent could actually win and finich all those lulz gods get from this neverending conflict

>> No.27140895

So IW are 2nd rate Blood Ravens?

>> No.27140928


I'd say the Blood Ravens have it better. They don't know who their primarch is. The Iron Warriors have to live with Perturabo

>> No.27141000

Iron Warriors - stealing everything that could be usevul in war
Thousand Sons - stealing everything that could be strudied for arcane secrets
Blood Ravens - stealing everything they see, no matter why.

>> No.27141007


Go home, Matt Ward, you're drunk!

>> No.27141052

le drunk meme xD

>> No.27141096

Is Old-Iron-Cage vs. New-Iron-Cage going to become the new oldcrons vs. newcrons?

>> No.27141164

>Is Old-Iron-Cage vs. New-Iron-Cage going to become the new oldcrons vs. newcrons?
No, because there is no new Iron Cage fluff other than just few sentences filled with fanboyism.

>> No.27141173

>mmuh word count
>Iron Warrior Damage Control

>> No.27141192

I don't know, but it will definitely be brought up in any future IF vs. IW bantering. Going from jollystomping the IF to needing Girlyman to prevent Dorn from murdering you is bound to leave some bruised egos

>> No.27141212


There is no Old vs. New Iron Cage. It has always been Perty yelling "COME AT ME BRO!", Dorn answering "Alright, I'm coming at you bro! Prepare your anus!", the two of them and their Legions doing their best to kill each other very very very dead; and both failing!

After that, it's only opinions on who actually managed to salvage a victory out of an nconclusive engagement.

>> No.27141225


No, IW and IF just have different views on what was the outcome of the battle.

>> No.27141248

>implying the emperor isn't a chaos god

>> No.27141270

The old way was Perturabo tricking Dorn into attacking a meat grinder and Dorn needing to be rescued.

The new way is Dorn was going to win (but at the cost of his own life) and Guilliman had to intervene to prevent Dorn from sacrificing himself in the process.

One way makes Perturabo look smart and crafty, the other way makes him look like he bit into an apple with a razor blade in it.

>> No.27141279


Not chaos god, but a warp god, yes, by now, he in all probability is.

>> No.27141289

Off topic somewhat, but what were the Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard doing during the Siege of Terra? Twiddling their thumbs?

>> No.27141296

He is most probably a chaos god in fact
>ever heard of Necoho ?

>> No.27141298

New Codex trumps decade old fluff-supplements.

IWs were going to be wiped out in a trap that they'd set themselves.

>> No.27141307

Not really, the codex mentions his final moments.

>> No.27141314

HH books will probably come out to say they were doing something instead of jerking off, but the current stuff says that they were too close to wiped-out after the Drop Site Massacre to be worth anything.

Even if they were there, they were probably just a skirmishing force

>> No.27141330

Without remains, he's not dead. He's just a lefty now. After fighting for thousands of years for an Imperium that strays ever further from the Emperor's vision, he couldn't take it anymore and left to fight the war on his own terms

>> No.27141331

RG went home.
as of the most recent HH book most of the surviving Salamanders and IH seemed to of thrown their lot in with the Ultramarines in Ultramar

>> No.27141340

Busy regrouping after being nearly annihilated after the Dropsite Massacre.

Literally the first battle of the Heresy was those three legions being betrayed and nearly wiped out and left so under-strength that they could barely function.

Slamamanders and Hands were just straight-up mauled to death, and the Raven Guard got off with enough men left to engage in guerrilla warfare and not much else.

>> No.27141355

Which HH book is that?

>> No.27141368

>implying anyone should worry about any other legion than Dark Angels

>> No.27141384

Khan and Corax supported Guilliman as did the Iron Hands, Blood Angels and I'd suppose the Dark Angels.

Vulkan, Russ and Dorn opposed the codex. Vulkan came around quickly after talking to Guilliman and straightening out that his Legion wouldn't be split.

>> No.27141409

The Dark Angels agreed quickly and quietly.
1. They didn't want anyone to ask too many questions about where they'd been the last few months.
2. They still operate as a Legion anyway. They were already divided into Chapters as part of their Legion organization. Now, they just gave everyone a different paint job.

>> No.27141417

This got me thinking. After the Siege of Terra is shown in the HH books, will they stop, or will we get some books immediately set after the Siege?

>> No.27141424


But that's just silly.

>> No.27141429

>implying they'll stop publishing such a financially successful series.

>> No.27141434

Don't look at me. It's GW's decision

>> No.27141456


Ok, I'll just go with the idea that both sides have their own versions that contradict each other. Probably all loyalists and most traitors who participated in the battle are dead anyway.

>> No.27141476

in one of the short stories you see an ultramarine and a salamander trying to raise support for the imperium and in another one you see Iron hands fighting the Death Guard and when the Lion confronts them about it they say how Guilliman is trying to rally all loyal forces to Ultramar.

also now the Blood Angels are there too i guess along with a bunch of Imperial fists who got lost on their way to Istvaan.

>> No.27141509

Yeah, we'll probably get books about the immediate aftermath and the traitors falling back, then epilogue books involving the loyalist primarchs disappearing or being struck down one by one.
Then we'll probably get, fuck, I dunno, Reign of Blood books.

>> No.27141532

Iron Warriors player, eh?

Here's hoping they get a supplement that throws even more gas on the fire

>> No.27141563


Nope. Those two versions already existed all those years ago, in the WD and the "Index Astartes" books. Always have the IW insisted they tricked Dorn, always have the IF insisted they went in knowing fully it was a trap.

And the truth has always been Perty putting a big "I'm here!" sign out and Dorn rushing to it because he was afraid it could become a stronghold for all the retreating traitors and overconfidently believing he could fight his way out of Perturabo's trap because he did just force him to retreat from Terra.

>> No.27141625

Go get your new Codex.

The Fists were actually going to win, now. That's the major difference. No more moral victory. No more, "we knew it was a trap".

>Dorn: "Iron Cage" is right, but you're the one who's locked in here with ME!"

Perturabo was going to die until Roboute rescued him by pulling Dorn off him.

>> No.27141630


Well, I had an IW army 10 years ago. I don't actually play anymore but I still read some fluff and BL books.

>> No.27141692


Well, the SM codex will of course be written from a pro-Imperial point of view.

There was an example of two different viewpoints about a same battle in the 6th ed CSM and Eldar codices. The CSM codex left the battle open-ended, while the Eldar codex made it a decisive Eldar victory.

>> No.27141727

>I think GW writers really must hate Pete Haines and Andy Chambersto make their favorite faction's (Chaos) high point look like suck schmucks.
>What does Chaos have after that? moral victories.

Chaos since 3.5 in a nut-shell.

>> No.27141751

that doesn't make any fucking sense, why would Rowboat not kill Perty with Dorn instead?

or do you just metaphorically mean "Roboute rescued him by pulling Dorn off him" and not lietrally

>> No.27141771

The new version actually makes more sense, imo. The old version from either point of view seemed pretty unbelievable.

>> No.27141790


When the Ultras showed up, the IWs high-tailed and retreated back to the Eye

>> No.27141868


>> No.27141895

What, Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi and the Star Wars Holiday Special?

>> No.27141907

I'll try to give you a short summary of it all.

Cemented the dominance of the Black Legion and his rule over it. He also acquired Drach'nyen from the Tower of Silence on Uralana, while Imperial forces were held up by the assault on Cadia.

Destroyed an Imperial Navy base and the shipyards on Belis Corona. Also cursed the planet's moon to unleash a mutagenic plague upon the planet's inhabitants in the future. Later sacked the Inquisitorial vaults on Nemesis Tessera – butchering the Imperials and freeing all the Daemons imprisoned in the fortress.

Unleashed the Daemon Prince Tallomin on the Cadian Gate. Tallomin is banished by a dozen Chapters of Astartes, after slaughtering many millions of Imperial soldiers. It was all a distraction, as Abaddon could now desecrate the tomb of Saint Gersthal on the shrine world of the same name, thereby preventing a prophecy of ultimate Imperial victory from coming true.

Assaulted the world of El'Phanor, a stronghold of the Cadian Gate. The planet was left a dead wasteland, leaving Cadia with 'a chink in its armor'.
After provoking a massive Imperial retaliation, Abaddon makes a sacrifice of ten million Imperial citizens to summon Doombreed. Two Chapters are killed in the trap sprung in the Imperial city of Kasyr Lutien, the Space Marines' violated by Daemons and their gene-seed forever lost to the Imperium.

Abaddon allied with Drekarth of the Sons of the Eye, a faction that defected from the Sons of Horus when Abaddon assumed leadership of the Legion. Together they annihilate a Forge World. Abaddon executes Drekarth, and the dying warlord is forced to watch as his men pledge allegiance to Abaddon.

>> No.27141928

The Black Legion eradicates civilian settlements and captures Eldar artifacts from the Adeptus Mechanicum. The Imperial response is often too sluggish to arrive before the heretics have completed their objectives and left. On the world of Mackan, a company of Blood Angels manage to surround the Black Legion's landing zone before the latter can escape. Abaddon personally kills the company's commander in single combat, after which the Blood Angels are forced to retreat, leaving the bodies of their dead to be claimed by the Traitors. Abaddon makes a pact with Fabius Bile to use the gene-seed of the dead Loyalists to bolster his own Legion.

The Black Legion engages in a ritual sacrifice known as the Skullgather. They slaughter specific numbers of people on specific worlds, and arrange the dead in specific patterns. Hundreds of adepts of the Inquisition are driven insane in trying to break the cipher, while Imperial forces pursue Abaddon's fleet. It ends with the council of Tech-Magi being sacrificed in the gears of the Forge World Rithcarn, completing the sequence of death and pleasing Tzeentch.

>> No.27141942

Abaddon musters several Traitor Legions for the purpose of strangling the power of Cancephalus, a naval fortress that acted as a base for Imperial ships patrolling the Eye of Terror for any activity. Abaddon proceeds to massacre and mutate the people of Antecanis, a heavily populated world that provided most recruits and officers for Cancephalus. The Traitors depart after having annihilated the response fleet from Cancephalus, thereby crippling the Imperial Navy's power and opening up new routes for Chaos Space Marines to exit the Eye of Terror.

The Black Legion allies with the Perturabo and his Iron Warriors, and together they assault the Helica Sector. Abaddon scatters his subordinate warlords across Imperial space as a distraction while he and Perturabo assault Medusa, home of the Iron Hands. The Iron warriors quickly burn the outer worlds of the system, before engaging the Iron Hands in a brutal war of attrition. The Iron Hands suffer heavy casualties, but they held out long enough for their allies to arrive. Abaddon and Perturabo depart after having learned much about the Medusa's defenses.

Abaddon's fleet is thrown off course, after binding a Daemon of Tzeentch within the occulus of his vessel in the hope that it may find new routes through the Warp storms. He ends up in orbit over Relorria, and proceeds to let his forces loose on the nearby world of Relorria. There the Traitor Marines encounter Orks, and a three-sided war breaks out. Abaddon experiments with the alien creatures to see if they could be fused with Daemons. Fascinated by their connection to the Warp, he takes many Orks as prisoners, after which he departs and leaves the humans of Relorria to deal with the remaining Xenos.

He got two Blackstone Fortresses out of this one.

>> No.27141983


Your fanboi opinion has been read, noted and ignored. You can leave now!

>> No.27142000


Which makes even less sense, as if things were going badly before reinforcement arrived for Dorn, they could have legged it long before that.

>> No.27142040

>cursed the planet's moon to unleash a mutagenic plague upon the planet's inhabitants in the future
I just love this one.

>> No.27142061

From a strategic perspective 40k doesnt make sense.

For example the iron cage incident. When the ultramarines fleet arrived and gained orbital superiority, they could have bombarded the iron warriors to bit very easily. You wouldnt even need planet killing weapons.

The focus on sending troops down to get killed instead of wiping out most of the opposition from orbit is very strange, particularly when you consider that remote fortresses with zero value also do not get bombarded. Not bombarding a large city, okay, that kind of makes sense (nevermind that it would be cheaper to rebuild a city than lose a ton of war material).

>> No.27142073

Tzeentch is fucking and unfucking everything in an infinite cycle of fuckery. There's no point in thinking about it.

>> No.27142115

They have city-size void shields. You can't just bombard a fortress, it won't work with anything short of destroying the planet.

>> No.27142133

also theres no real way the chaos marines would have been able to maintain their numbers. what with killing each other on a regular basis, getting killed by everyone else and lack of gene seed, they should have way less numbers than loyalist marines.

>> No.27142134


>> No.27142157

Also wasn't the fact that the Imperial Fists had to abandon the field (or at least do so first) and leave their fallen brothers behind is why the IWs had so much IF gene-seed to sacrifice for Perturabo's ascension in the first place?

>> No.27142164

They do make new CSM, you know.

>> No.27142175

40k is deliberately vague on this.

But the Legions were all incredibly large, being Chaos infused might keep them alive a little longer. They replenish their numbers in other ways, and the Imperium never seems to send quite enough loyal Chapters to get the job done.

permanent stalemate. Perfect for GWs sales.

>> No.27142178

Different warbands have come up with alternative ways to make Space Marine level troops.Some Iron Warriors have some demon-mothers birth fleshless hulking creatures; a gene-seed in one womb-critter can produce multiple types of these SM. Sure, they may not be as technically engineered as an SM, but in terms of strength and resilience they are equal.

>> No.27142189

Actually, the Iron Cage was Dorn going "fuck this, I'm doing one last thing my way"

>> No.27142210

>Apparently Perturabo has been lobbying for Abbadon to be sacked by the Chaos Powers so that he can become Warmaster.

>> No.27142246

void shields arent imprenetable.

they shouldnt be able to make very large numbers of them. they seem to have infinite numbers, while losses of space marines hurt the imperium a lot even though the imperium is the only one who can reliably produce gene seed.

>> No.27142260

>He also acquired Drach'nyen from the Tower of Silence on Uralana, while Imperial forces were held up by the assault on Cadia.
One guy gets a sword doesn't sound all that cool.

>> No.27142305

He later used that sword to personally sunder the gates of the Imperial fortress on El'Phanor. His army would have perished outside the walls if he hadn't acquired that sword.

>> No.27142313

sounds like a mary sue.

>> No.27142318

The Sword went through like a 10meter thick adamantium wall like paper.

>> No.27142341

Do you even know what setting you're talking about?
He has a name, of course he's a mary sue.

>> No.27142362


>> No.27142363

Space Marines turn renegade the whole time, some of the legions produce there own marines and then there are some marines that get resurrected by the gods.

Really the reason they seem to have so much numbers is that all chaos marines are pretty much hemmed into their own little area of space; makes them appear to have huge numbers.

>> No.27142396

but the swarm lord doesn't have a name and its a mary sue
in fact it mary sued the most mary sue SM

>> No.27142415

In 40k a title is just as good as a name.

>> No.27142418

>void shields arent imprenetable.

But everything strong enought to penetrate them it's going to make the planet explode.

Also, they have cannons that from the ground can shoot down necron battleships in orbits (read the white scar chronology)

Ground warfare is a necessity in order to destroy anti-air postation and void shield generators, so you can then bombard them to oblivion with battleships.

So you don't try to penetrate them and simply you send troops to do the job from

>> No.27142445

It's a really, really good sword. Like, the best.

>> No.27142472

that doesn't make sense, unless the blade is at least 10 meters long.

Also even if the blade is 10 meters long it would still have a small surface area to cut with. So at best you would get a 10 meter deep, 1-3 cm wide cut.

>> No.27142484

>Space Marines turn renegade the whole time,

Very rare. Most renegades are killed anyway unless a whole chapter rebels.

>some of the legions produce there own marines
Not reliable and in very limited amounts

>and then there are some marines that get resurrected by the gods.

Extremly rare.

>> No.27142492

It's a magic sword.

>> No.27142510

>But everything strong enought to penetrate them it's going to make the planet explode.

That makes no sense whatsoever. A void shield generator can be overloaded by simply applying sufficient force to it repeatedly.

Also with very few exceptions, ground based orbital defences have been largely shown to be very ineffective.

>> No.27142550

The difference is made up by the fact that Chaos Marine production is not as strict as the loyalist Astartes. All those half-human, blood-crazed failures that the Astartes-making process produces? Chaos still fields those guys, instead of putting them down.

>> No.27142574

Its a daemon weapon. It sends out energy wave that rapes everything.

>> No.27142579

But the Swarmlord never touched Mephiston.

>> No.27142586

His magic sword just works that way. He cut through the gates.

>> No.27142614

Infact, if anything, Chaos puts down the guys who come out perfectly normally.

"This one's perfect guys! No extra arms or anything."
"Complete fucking failure. Flush the tank and we'll try again."

>> No.27142617

>Not reliable and in very limited amounts
They don't give a shit about reliability. Even the failures get fielded. As for amounts, I guess that can vary quite a bit.

>> No.27142631

Yes, but how much force you need to overload it? We are not talking about the void shields fielded on titans or ships, we are talking about ones big enought to cover Hive cities. You'll need so much firepower to overload it that it's much more fast and efficient to simply destroy the planet or send a ground force.

>> No.27142632

Mephiston is not a mary sue, just suffering from wardism. He'll turn to normal in the next codex written by Vetock, y-you'll see!

>> No.27142648

Nah, they keep those around. Healthy gene-seeds are still valuable.

>> No.27142665

Mephiston's been a Sue since 2e

>> No.27142668


Why didn't Dorn just hit the planet with Cyclonic Torpedoes until its very tectonic plaques break apart?

>> No.27142670

Of course that would depend on the Warband; some of the Original heretics might only want to fight alongside pure fallen Astartes.

>> No.27142727

Honestly, that's just the writer capitalizing on a setup. Why was the sword valuable enough to attack Cadia without a chance in hell of victory? Because he needed that sword to bring down a stronghold that supported Cadia.

>> No.27142802

Because that wouldn't be honourable. Also, he wanted that motherfucker dead by his own, Emperor-fearing hands.

>> No.27142941


And also it was a trial by combat for the Legion and Dorn.
Dorn and the Fists blamed themselves for the Emperor's wounding and were just going apeshit all over the galaxy, self-destructingly attacking anything Chaos they found.
While this is happening, Guilliman presents the Codex to an Imperium that can no longer trust Space Marines. Dorn no longer feels like he and his legion have a place in this Imperium.
At the same time, Perturabo builds his Iron Cage (the Eternal Fortress) warzone and taunts Dorn with it. Dorn obliges Perturabo and attacks, knowing that if the Fists survive, it's meant to be and they should continue the fight according to the new Codex, but if they die, at least they die taking down a traitor.

>> No.27142951

They tried. The Iron Warriors had already planned around that though. Plus they had a space fleet of their own.

IWs chilled out in underground bunkers while the orbital bombardment started then set off nukes they had buried in remote locations which filled the atomsphere with smoke and debris cutting of visibilty and communication between IF landing parties and their navy making deployment a clusterfuck for IFs on the ground while the IW's own navy came out of hiding and ambushed the IFs during the confusion and scattered them costing, them air superiorty.

>> No.27143017

>implying the Long War isn't child's play compared to the Great Game

>> No.27143030

Read Kryptos. And Angel Exterminatus.

>> No.27143166


Bear in mind Codices are heavily biased towards the Imperials. The SM Codex can SAY that the Iron Cage was a draw but that's not necessarily what actually happened. The CSM Codex doesn't even mention the Iron Cage, so there's no corroboration that what the SM Codex states occurred is how things went down. Given the blatant pro-Imperial bias accounts in all the Codices, it's a rational hypothesis that rather than admit having a First Founding Chapter be humiliated by a Traitor Legion, events be told with a different slant so as not to damage morale.

Besides, we all know the Iron Warriors left Dorn weeping like a woman surrounded by the corpses of his sons. That's how shit went down and everyone except the Imperium knows it.

>> No.27143167

>implying the Great Game isn't babby blocks next to the Eternal Pursuit of the Glory of the Ultramarines

>> No.27143176

Pooper pained Ironfag in denial detected.

>> No.27143190

>The CSM Codex doesn't even mention the Iron Cage
Of course not why would they boast about their biggest failure ever.

>> No.27143239


When the IWs get their supplement (maybe) then it'll be relevant. The CSM Codex focused almost solely on Abaddon and the Crusades.

>> No.27143254


>> No.27143322

>Bear in mind Codices are heavily biased towards the Imperials. The SM Codex can SAY that the Iron Cage was a draw but that's not necessarily what actually happened.

If you were to dedicate all that analdevastation to the Chaos Gods, you could be elevated to daemon prince too

>> No.27143335

>he CSM Codex doesn't even mention the Iron Cage,

The CSM barely mentions the Iron Warriors. Who can blame them, though?

>> No.27143350

>dorn is alive
Holy shit that delusion.

>> No.27143387

In the next Codex, the Chaos Legions will be getting a traits system.

The Iron Warriors trait will be called: Damage Control

>> No.27143419

Even if you're just referencing the old IA fluff, Haines was the guy who wrote both accounts.

The Chaos version is just as biased as the Imperial one. The only thing we can get out of it is that Perturabo failed in killing Dorn and had to ascend via his sloppy seconds.

>> No.27143420

Ive always viewed the iron cage purely as a plot device that made a turn key way to get the Imperial Fists down to robot girlyman approved sized, so they could have them be adherent to the codex.

>> No.27143438

He's either very dead or very much the rapeslave of the Traitor Legions.

>> No.27143445


>> No.27143469


speaking of delusion...

>> No.27143542

Curze foresaw his death in the HH series, torn apart by hordes of shrieking mutated marines.

>> No.27143645

I am a huge IF Fanboy, but Dorn is deader than the Eldar Race another 40k years from now.
Although, the new fluff is sort of beefing up Lysander to be the super captain that accomplished more than their primarch.

>> No.27143696

Please don't remind me. Ward fucked my codex so hard I still want to cry.

>> No.27143712

So after failing the entire Galaxy due to his slowness, and his beloved big brother being an ass, he went to go pound the one guy going "Ur a fkn pussy m8 i bet u cn't evn fite me my fortress vs ur chapter cmon m8", and lost a ton during his dumbass fight?

>> No.27143732

pls no
one sevatar was bad enough

>> No.27143764

What if
Centurion Lysander
EW, 4W, T5

>> No.27143821

>Implying GW will ever let the candy colored space elves taste the sweet release of death when they can continue to be 2nd stringers that the Space Marines beat up when there's nothing actually threatening to fight.

Being Eldar is suffering. Even the orks are occasionally allowed to be something other than a distraction from the real problems on occasion. I hear their new codex actually gave them something distantly resembling respect though, so there's that.

>> No.27143859

Keep cryin' bitch nigga.

>> No.27143860

>Even the orks are occasionally allowed to be something other than a distraction from the real problems on occasion
When did this happen?

>> No.27143884

They wiped out the Celestial Lions, didn't they?

>> No.27143905

That's one way to look at it, if you were thirteen years old, I suppose.

>> No.27143991

Has the Avatar ever actually won a fight?

>> No.27144001

only against other Eldar

>> No.27144041

>void shields arent imprenetable.
Void shields just need a lot of energy do sustain continious pondering. When you can build the reactor the size of a skyscraper energy isn't a big deal.
I mean, fortress-monastery of DA sustained the bombardment that destoy entire fucking planet.

>> No.27144061


>> No.27144096

I don't remember a single one.

>> No.27144106

No, the Celestial Lions were wiped out during a battle with the Orks, but they were actually killed by "Ork snipers" that seemed to only target their chests and the back of their necks... where the geneseed is on their bodies. The fact that these snipers seemed to target the apothecaries first above anyone else was purely coincidence.

The Inquisition might have investigated this matter to get to the truth, but shortly before this battle the Celestial Lions insulted the =I= and told them to fuck off, so they were persona non grata... not that the Inquisition knows anything about assassins or snipers or anything of that sort.

>> No.27144133

Oh, please.
Don't go blaming the Inquisition for the work of fiendish Ork snipers.

>> No.27144166

Didn't Imperials also have shitty sniper rifles?

>> No.27144185

I think it might have won one duel in some piece of fluff from Epic, but I can't remember how it went.

>> No.27144198

Not if your an Assassin.

>> No.27144215

>Perturabo failed in killing Dorn
Not like he even tried. The entire pint was ti make Dorn suffer. Otherwise Perty would just order retreat aftel locking IF in the central fort and nuke entire fortress with votrex missiles.

>> No.27144250

>Not like he even tried

>> No.27144335

Priests of Mars it kills a Black Templar Chaplain.
Killing one Chaplain seems like a waste of a Exarch

>> No.27144341

We're speaking about IW, the guys with the most broken firepower in the galaxy and the most devastating war machines. It was clearly stated in older fluff that Pert don't order al the lascannons to snipe the Dorn untlill his fried only because he enjoyed watching him suffer.

>> No.27144398

Well, unless were talking about Chaplian "I-just-Suplexed-A-Bloodthirster" Varnus

>> No.27144423


>> No.27144424


Isn't Varnus an Ultramarine?

>> No.27144438

Varnus is a Varnus. He Chaplains where he is needed most.

>> No.27144550


>> No.27145136

No one at GW likes Graham McNeill it seems

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