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[ERROR] No.26961927 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

>Go to a tournament
>round one, start unpacking all my stuff
>opponent sees I have two riptides
>complains about how broken and cheesy tau is
>says they are no fun because they just sit their and shoot
>he unpacks 6 wave serpents

Luckily I had los blocking terrain and a crisis team with 6 missile pods, pen chip and c&c node + msss. I was able to jump out, shoot down a serpent, marker light another and shoot the other with with my riptides.

But it was funny he was complaining about tau when his list is the cheesiest shit ever. I have two op riptides and he has 6 even more op waveserpents. Against any other army but tau, or against a tau list not ready for waveserpent spam he would have easily won.

So what do you think is worst: tau or waveserpent spam?

>> No.26961995

You're both cunts.
End of.

>> No.26962057

So wave serpents just... shoot a bit? What's the problem with that? They do not score and you can easily kill the rest of the army either by shooting or by CQC.

>> No.26962065


2 scatter/holo Waveserpents are as bad as each riptide.

It also depends on the tournament points total, and the entire list composition.

>> No.26962141

If you can weather the opening round of serpent shooting, Mechdar falls to pieces. It's also too easy to kill the tanks in assault because they are so often compelled to come towards you.

>> No.26962168

Serpent spam is the biggest bullshit since flyer spam. Basically you need to write a list specifically for it or you lose. Half your army just sits their with their thumbs up their asses because they can't hurt the waver serpent and they jink save the shit out of all your shots. At least against tau I can use my whole army before they wipe me.

>> No.26962195

>Go to a tournament

Well that was your first mistake

>> No.26962238

>wave serpents just...shoot a bit?
4 tl s6 shots
d6+1 tl s7 ignore cover shots
3 tl s6 rending shots

>they do not score
Each serpent has a scoring unit in it

>you can easily kill the rest of their army
There is no rest of the army, it is all serpents and maybe a wraithknight

>> No.26962305

>4 tl s6 shots
>d6+1 tl s7 ignore cover shots
>3 tl s6 rending shots

its not rending, and you fire snap shots with the 3 s6 if you move over 6"

>they do not score
>Each serpent has a scoring unit in it
Possibly, but they still don't score on their own.

>you can easily kill the rest of their army
>There is no rest of the army, it is all serpents and maybe a wraithknight
Thats a shit list, especially when you claimed those serpents only have DA in them.

>> No.26962345

>Play Orks
>my lootas and Dakkajets faces when Wave Serpant Spam
Glancing errything to death, all day erry day. How did you do at the tourney OP?

>> No.26962386

enjoy your op lists when i'll use my master skills to take you faggots down with my superior dark eldars

>> No.26962427

>Dark Eldar
Pick one, git.

>> No.26962444


>> No.26962481

sorry i can't hear your screams from my venom

seriously, i'm having the most fun in the last 3 years of matches with dark eldars
they are just awesome
but they are freaking weak
because they are, you know, a bunch of faggots with 2deep4u shields

>> No.26962494

>Using DEldar
>Calling other people faggots
Excuse me?

>> No.26962521

Sorry, Oi' can't hear you, or see you, because the air is made of lead. Orks are best.

>> No.26962562

you got me, green stuff

>> No.26962742

Roll of 6 to wound = auto-wound on AP2. Sounds pretty rendery to me, apart from not getting +D3 vs. tanks.

>if you move over 6"

Then don't move it over 6", you get a jink save regardless.

>still don't score on their own

Neither does the Heldrake nor Riptide, so I guess they're all balanced then.

>Thats a shit list

Spoken like a true never played the game before type.

>> No.26962747

This article is better and the writer is less of a superior dick.


>> No.26964293

Riptides aren't even the best thing in Tau

>> No.26965033

>its not rending, and you fire snap shots with the 3 s6 if you move over 6"
You're missing a couple of facts there anon. The wave serpent is fast, which means it can fire 2 weapons at full bs. The wave serpent shield is also not a weapon, just a feature.

>> No.26965696


It was a tournament.


Tau overall are worse. Wave Serpent in a vacuum/just units is worse. You're lucky your tournament had terrain you could use to your advantage.

>> No.26970439

>The wave serpent shield is also not a weapon, just a feature.
Wrong, firing the shield counts as firing a weapon, stop being bad at 40k.

>> No.26970925

Tau are far more broken than Eldar. Just shoot them with guns, like autocannons and missile pods, stuff that Tau and IG can do rather well.

>> No.26971097


>tfw ork master race

me don gib a grots bum bout da fancy pancy 'umie turnneemens me juz care bout da DAKKA!!!

>> No.26975812

Oy, dis fellow 'ere has the right idea. Both a'dem, pointy-ears and dem blooberry folks alike, be stupid gits, playin' not to crump an' have fun but to win.

>> No.26977545

>Waveserpents more OP than Riptides.
As someone who plays against both all the time, thats bullshit.

>> No.26977913


>less of a superior dick

Well I'd hate to see that first one then.

>> No.26977945

>playing units you know are no fun

>> No.26977989

Both of you are a couple of shitbags.

>> No.26977993

To be fair, you can only have all of those shots if you're within 24".

>> No.26978025

What's unfun about a Riptide? Dude's got a damn jetpack!

>> No.26978032


Jesus fuck if he's less of a superior dick how bad was the first one?

>> No.26978062

so when you guys play like 40k and stuff

how do you decide who starts where, since obviously terrain can give you a huge advantage

>> No.26978096


You're supposed to take turns arranging terrain and not start until both sides are satisfied with the placement.

>> No.26978118

>people treating dice-based games as competitive shit
>so much unbalance its not funny

why the fuck do people try and turn this shit into a tournament game.

>> No.26978150

Because it's fun.

>> No.26978169

The game is fun.

Trying to delude yourself into thinking this game is A. Balanced and B. More skill than luck based and thus suitable for competition is retarded.

>> No.26978188

More fun to play a better game.

>> No.26978196


The game itself is fun, but tournament play in 40k seems really.. silly.

Most games are determined by the list you bring, right? Then the reminder is decided by random chance?

So in a game of considerable unbalance (since codexes and erratas aren't released at once on the same cadence), it becomes a min/max 'tailor list or lose' shitfest.

Or am I just missing something?

>> No.26978212

>implying balance is necessary for tournaments to be fun
>implying randomness makes competitive things unfun
>literally claiming that tournament players aren't really having fun when they think they are

>> No.26978214

40k is like mario party. It's a game you play with your friends for laughs and occasionally to start a brawl over.

Trying to treat it as anything more serious is a recipe for disaster.

>> No.26978233

You throw out shit and take a look at it and say - Do this look cool and suiting the scenario? sure, why the fuck not. What mechanics should we give this piece? Lets have that do this if thsi happens. Sure that sounds great. Lets play this shit.

And then you have fun, laugh and don't care who "win" as long as it was fun from start to finish.

>> No.26978237

>a min/max 'tailor list or lose' shitfest
Some people enjoy that, though. See also Magic the Gathering. A huge part of it is figuring out 'the meta' and what will be most successful in it.

Bottom line, though, is that people actually enjoy playing competitive 40k, and trying to convince people that they're not really having fun is a fool's errand.

>> No.26978259

from all the complaining the tournament players do they sure could have fool me.

>> No.26978261

I don't even play 40k but the only way I can see myself playing is the way I played magic with friends - starting with a small basic army that I would then expand now and then with a new figure or two

I can't imagine I'd ever want to play with people who just figure out the most min-max army on the internet, pump a ton of cash into it and gloat while playing against others, there's no fun in this, it's pay 2 win

>> No.26978359


Look at your post.

>balance is unnecessary

In a normal game? Yeah, sure; it's all fun.

In a game where both players have the express purpose of winning (and where winning is also incentivized), this makes it a retarded prospect. It comes down to luck and fielding an OP army.

This is just like when a game tries to shoehorn in an e-sports component where it doesn't belong.

I'm fine with people playing in tournaments, but they should really abandon the illusion that it's a test of skill or a good application of the game itself.

>> No.26978370

I do not play competitive 40k (lol) but I'll argue that it's not P2Win like magic is for this simple reason -

Compare, well, I'll use space wolves because it's all I know.

There's Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Fenrisian Wolves. Thunderwolf Cavalry is a really good unit. Fenrisian Wolves are...not so great. But the thing is, if you had similar points values, their cost would be (mostly) the same. It's just a matter of spending your money different.

Magic is pay to win because you directly increase the quality of a deck by pumping money into it and trading up. Compare Jace Beleren ($5) to Jace the Mind Sculptor ($100.) Sculptor's a fuckload better, but unlike 40k you're paying out the ass.

>> No.26978400

I was once told that Mario Party is the most competitive & balanced game ever. I disagreed.

>> No.26978414


Like >>26978370 said, 40k is certainly no P2W.

Yes, you are obliged to field the actual, proper models at (most) tournaments, but there's no random bullshit factor involved with getting the models in the first place. (Like there is with CCGs.)

Additionally, you can usually source minis cheaply via eBay or Chinaman; so there are plenty of ways to defray the cost.

So 40k isn't P2W. It's just 'Better lucky than good.' (And playing an OP army certainly helps.)

>> No.26978433

As a Tau player who got into 40k starting with the 6th ed Tau codex. Riptides are shitty.

I hate fielding mine. I only do it when I need more anti-air and my heavy support slots are full (which they always are because I love Hammerheads/Sky-Rays).

That said. No one should complain about cheese lists in a tournament. Sure if it was a friendly or campaign game. But a tournament? Cheese it up. Tournaments are shit anyway.

>> No.26978547


You're stupid. Only malcontents complain. You will never hear the thousands of satisfied people because they are content and have nothing to say. You always only hear the handful of angry people.

>> No.26978576

>fielding an OP army
If we're talking tournaments, the word 'overpowered' isn't really relevant. It's like saying Federer's overpowered at tennis or something.

>the illusion that it's a test of skill
Skill is involved, though. It's just that a lot of it comes in at the list-building stage- anticipating the meta and designing an army to build it. And, of course, knowing how to use that army well.

I'm not denying that 40k isn't very suited to tournament play, but it does involve skill and I'm pretty sure the people who play in tournaments enjoy it, otherwise they wouldn't bother.

>> No.26978701


I don't think your tennis analogy holds. I'm talking about specific armies being far and away more competitive than others. (Therefore being underpowered at tournaments.) Or are you suggesting that if someone plans to attend a tournament, they should only intend to bring the current OP/hyper competitive army?

I'll give you that there is some skill involved, but my larger point was you could be a master tactician and strategist and still lose a game utterly because of bad rolls. Hence, better lucky than good.

>> No.26978966

>my larger point was you could be a master tactician and strategist and still lose a game utterly because of bad rolls
They'll tend to average out, though. I don't know how many dice are thrown in the course of an average 40k game, but... it's a whole lot.

>Or are you suggesting that if someone plans to attend a tournament, they should only intend to bring the current OP/hyper competitive army?
Yes. Or, more accurately, figure out what will beat the most common competitive lists, because if most people bring one known netlist then the smart player who brings a list that can beat that list is likely to do well.

>> No.26979079


The dice rolls can average out, yeah, but that's going to fuck you over worse if you're bringing fewer models than someone who fields an Ork Boy mob. I've been in plenty of games personally where the outcame came down to one or two ability/attack/save rolls.

And christ competitive play must be dull if you're resigned to playing an army you might not enjoy just because your preferred option is unrealistic. I can appreciate understanding the meta, but it still doesn't make a bad tournament model somehow less broken.

>> No.26979108


because of faggy Tau other lists have to be as cheesy as possible.
3 Necron-scythes? its your fault
6 Eldar-serpents? you get it: its your fault

>> No.26979238

>because of faggy Tau other lists have to be as cheesy as possible.
Nah, it was a tournament, and likely a no-limit one. You don't go there without your own cheese and this is true no matter which faction is the cheesiest and exactly how cheesy it is.

There should be a contract you have to sign before going to a tourney. One that strips you of your right to whine about cheesy lists, on the basis that you should know where you are already. Visibly, basic logic isn't enough to drive the point home.

>> No.26979368

Guys? Remember me?

>> No.26979557


>Hierophant next to a Stormraven

Yeech. Two hideous models in the same frame.

>> No.26979692

It's beautiful, no?

>> No.26979724


I don't think so, Tim.

>> No.26979811

i like the hierophant model

>> No.26979825

No, it's like saying Federer walking onto the court with a robotic tennis super-computer exoframe locked onto his arm is overpowered compared to Murray coming onto the court carrying just his own skill.
Don't confuse stats and player skill.

>> No.26979833

I like this 'ass-up' pose
somebody should model a Riptide behind it doggy-style, because its how it is now

>> No.26979837


I'm sorry, but the giant tail/dick cannon is ruining it for me.

>> No.26979859

>complains about riptides being op and broken
>fields 6 waveserpents

O see someone's been going to dakkadakka.

>> No.26979889

What is?

>> No.26979906

the bad thing is, you can field both in one list (you are even supposed to)

>> No.26980022

>that guy on the bottom left
>"Hey turn around you guys! Frank is taking a picture."

>> No.26980041

Two riptides in 1500 points is fine. Really, the biggest threat is the turns you waste on them when you could be killing stuff instead. THREE? that's cheesing it.

But that's NOTHING compared to six fucking waveserpents. FUCK THOSE THINGS.

>> No.26980049

it doesnt have a tail cannon

>> No.26980080

He must be some dimension hopping wizard, because here he is again.

>> No.26980095

>giant tail/dick cannon

no such thing

>> No.26980101

But making the list is a major part of the skill involved in 40k.

>> No.26980196

The difference, OP?

Eldar must have at least one Wave Serpent. They don't really have any good lists that don't involve Wave Serpent spam. WSpam is a high tier list, whereas anything else Eldar is low tier.

Tau, on the other hand, can get away with one Riptide or none.

>> No.26980217


There was a 40k thread last night on here where someone cropped that picture out and added a 'AS IF I GIVE A FUCK' caption as seen in >>26980080 . Good stuff.


Ah! My mistake. I couldn't tell from the initial photo. Pretty nice model then. Does the arched back serve a purpose? Does it drop spores or something from its underside?

And god help those two Tau on the edge of its base in the second picture.

>> No.26980241

>one Riptide or none.

G8 B8 M8 I giv it an 8/88

>> No.26980268

>Tau'va dammit kais, I told you tyranid sushi was a bad idea!

>> No.26980275

Tau are still the best army in the game without Riptides, Eldar barely function without Wave Serpents.

OP sucks endless baby cock.

>> No.26980398

Games in the typical 40k point ranges of 1000-2000 points are comparatively dependent on luck.
You indeed make lots of dice rolls, but the crucial point is, that a fraction of those are more important than the others, for example charge moves, rolls in challenges between very strong melee chars and shooting rolls to take down dedicated transports at the beginning of the game.
Another example would be reserve rolls: Imagine a SM player that wants to destroy an IG gunline by shocking in assault terminators. If both arrive at the same time, the IG could be overwhelmed with targets. But if they come one after another, the IG could take them each out with all their firepower without being in much trouble.
This is a crude example of course, but I hope I could get my point across.
I personally dont mind this, because for me the fun in 40k is mainly in spinning a story in my head for a particular game but i really couldn't take people that play 40k "competively" serious.

>> No.26980442

>Eldar are dependent on Wave Serpents
I love how I step away from /tg/ for a while and everything changes. Last I saw people were calling it a nicely balanced codex with a low number of crap units. Which non-Serpent lists have you guys been playing with/against?

>> No.26980490

>a nicely balanced codex with a low number of crap units

That's the same thing /tg/ said about the Chaos Marine codex when it first came out...

>> No.26980536

I buy Daedalus. Dota 2 is a complete unbalanced and luck based game, and little of my own skill goes into whether or not my team succeeds.

fuck random chance ruining my competetives

>> No.26980673

This is my footdar, there are many like it but this one is mine.

Eldar (1849/1850pt.)

The Avatar of Khaine (205pt.)
> Fast Shot;

Fire Dragons (132pt.)
> 6x - Fire Dragon (22pt.)

Fire Dragons (132pt.)
> 6x - Fire Dragon (22pt.)

Striking Scorpions (220pt.)
> 1x - Striking Scorpion Exarch (67pt.); Scorpion's claw; Scorpion chainsword; Crushing Blow;
> 9x - Striking Scorpion (17pt.);

Dire Avengers (160pt.)
> 1x - Dire Avenger Exarch (43pt.); Power weapon and shimmershield;
> 9x - Dire Avenger (13pt.)

Dire Avengers (160pt.)
> 1x - Dire Avenger Exarch (43pt.); Power weapon and shimmershield;
> 9x - Dire Avenger (13pt.)

Rangers (120pt.)
> 10x - Ranger (12pt.)

Rangers (60pt.)
> 5x - Ranger (12pt.)

Swooping Hawks (141pt.)
> 1x - Swooping Hawk Exarch (61pt.);Sunrifle; Night Vision; Hit & Run;
> 5x - Swooping Hawk (16pt.);

Dark Reapers (217pt.)
> 1x - Dark Reaper Exarch (65pt.);Eldar missile launcher; Night Vision; Fast Shot;
> 4x - Dark Reaper (38pt.);

Dark Reapers (217pt.)
> 1x - Dark Reaper Exarch (65pt.);Eldar missile launcher; Night Vision; Fast Shot;
> 4x - Dark Reaper (38pt.);

Aegis Defense Line (85pt.)
> Gun Emplacement with Icarus lascannon;

>> No.26980754

Could you possibly be more Biel-Tan?

>> No.26980805

Sure, I'm only running 5 different aspects, and I have almost as many rangers as dire avengers, I also have no vehicle support at all so while I may have the sword I lack the wind to carry it.

In boxes (hopefully still at my parents) i should have these painted in Aliatoc or just typical shrine colours.

2 Eldrad
4 farseers
12 warlocks
2 autachs
2 avatar
1 baharroth
1 kahandras
1 wraithseer

5 Banshees
18 scorpions + 2 exarchs
21 fire dragons
9 harliquins

33 rangers
17 direavengers + 3 exarchs
28 plastic direvengers + 2 exarchs
10 bikes + 5 shuricannon bikes
10 wraithguard
6 waveserpents

19 swooping hawks + 3 exarchs
1 nightwing
1 chrimson hunter
5 warp spiders
3 vypers

6 metal warwalkers
3 warwalkers
2 metal wraithlords
1 wraithknight
3 fireprisms/nightspinners
13 darkreapers + 3 exarchs

Aegis line w/ icarus

1 Cobra

>> No.26983285

>I went to this tournament and this guy said Riptides are cheap
>He had wave serpents
>My riptide destroyed the serpents
>Serpents are the cheesiest shit ever

Do... you have a point or are you complaining that his shit wasn't as good as yours?

>> No.26983306

If you needed more evidence that Eldar/Tau fucked everything up since there release, just look at recent tournament winners. In the past in 40k, literally every single army has been in the top 10 of a major tournament barring sisters. Nids, DE, Orks, you name it and it's been up there. Now look at the Nova Open results from yesterday.
Here's the top ten armies (+ indicates allies):
1) Tau+Farsight
2) Tau+Farsight
3) Eldar
4) Tau+Farsight
5) Eldar+Dark Eldar
6) Tau+Eldar
7) Eldar+Tau
8) Grey Knights+Tau
9) Tau+Eldar
10) Necrons+Orks

Here's the none Eldar/Tau up there: Grey Knights (for Dreadknight+Riptide abuse no less), Necrons (flyer spam), DE allies (Warlock council abuse I believe) and Ork allies (ground troops for the flyer spam). Sounds like fun? No? Blame GW for adding no anti-MC guns to the whole game and having insufficient flyer defence outside of Tau.

In general, Eldar+tau/Tau+Eldar armies had a 76% win rate overall. Why? Because Riptides, Wraithknights and Wave Serpents are way, way too strong. Nothing in the game realistically counters Riptides or Wraithknights as they have an ass load of wounds and are very fast. Wave Serpents have too much shooting for their cost - up to 7 S7 TL shots is utterly absurd, especially on a transport. Now, Necron flyers would beat that... but skyfire/interceptor Riptides with HBC+FB make them very impotent, killing one per turn on average. Oh, and the overall winner? 4 Riptide list. If that doesn't say it all, I don't know what does. This is why every SM player worth their salt will be running at least 2 grav Centurion units - they're the only thing in the game that stand a chance of killing these big fast MCs.

>> No.26983442

>Go to a tournament.


It's impossible to tournaments to actually be fun to anybody except whoever ends up winning, because every list is just a bunch of min/max cheese from the most overpowered codex.


That's why I don't play in tournaments. But the problem is that tourney tards don't stay only at tournaments. They bleed over into casual games and ruin those too.

40k is not a game that's supposed to be competitive. There's a reason GWS doesn't host tournaments themselves anymore.

In conclusion, you and all the other tourney tards can go fuck yourselves.

>> No.26983445


That pic would make for an awesome postcard.

>Dear Julie, missing you dearly
>Here's me on the eastern fringe with the boys.
>Boy that big sucker just did not want to die
>say hi to Jack for me and tell him I'm bringing him back a gene stealer tooth like I promised

>> No.26983499

>stop having fun wrong
>you cannot possibly derive fun from a game by trying your best to win

No, you are the problem. Does it affect you? No. Do you need to attend? No. Have you ever been? Almost certainly not. People have fun in them, so they go. Why does that bother you so much?

>> No.26983504

>2 grav Centurion units
exactly as planned that's 100+ dollars in GW pocket one way or another

>> No.26983524

I'm surprised Tau/Eldar didn't place better. I still think Tau Eldar is the best

>> No.26983527

>whereas anything else Eldar is low tier.

Are you shitting me? It's the most balanced codex in this edition. Everything except banshees and falcons are viable. I've seen Footdar stomp Serpent armies.

>> No.26983549

And marines only too! Was there even a doubt Marines would be the first to be adequately equipped for 6e?

That said, their flyer defence is still shit, I dunno who is responsible for that but they just keep fucking up.

>> No.26983559

Locally we've had plenty of tournaments with some playing competitively and others for fun. Entry fee isn't much and it brings new people to play against. Hell, first time I played a wargame was at a tournament with a friend's wood elves. Had a blast and people were friendly.

And I've seen all sorts of armies win. One dude won with a quite generic VC army purely by being a good player instead of spamming some cheese shit. Another guy won when in the last game he managed to scare off 1800pts. of the enemy's Bretonnian army on the first turn.

So, yeah, not all tournaments are 2-3 kinds of cheese staked on top of each other.

>> No.26983560

key word here is internal balance before someone goes on another Eldar rant

>> No.26983565

>No, you are the problem. Does it affect you? No.

>the problem is that tourney tards don't stay only at tournaments. They bleed over into casual games and ruin those too.

>> No.26983574

only the big events have people going all out since most people just play want they own and don't put more money into making a strongest list

>> No.26983578

Wave serpents are challenging units that need strategy to answer (can I attack it from the rear? outflank? deepstrike?)

Riptides are cheesy faggot shit for fucking losers who suck cock in between turns (Who do i dump my large blast S8 AP2 blast on? Who can hurt my T6, feel no pain, save 2+, 5 wounds for roughly 200 points?)

>> No.26983675

>Wave serpents are challenging units that need strategy to answer

>> No.26983764

Well, in the invitational at Nova 3 of the top 5 lists were Eldar+Tau (1st, 3rd and 5th places respectively) and literally every single one of the top 5 had Tau as allies. I'd say you're not far from the mark for sure.

Oh sorry, let me rephrase:
>My friends play in in a way I dislike and have fun all wrong QQ

No, they're just bullshit. Outflanking/DS make shit all difference because any player worth their salt will park it so you can't target the rear armour. Most of the time, this is parking at the back and firing across the board with its 60" range. They're fast, so after T4 (the latest all reserves must be in) they have no issue zipping onto objectives. We're talking about a tank with equivalent fire power on average to 2 chimeras and 4 IG autocannons teams, yeah? It requires no talent to use at all other than sitting there. Getting to objectives after still does but Wave Serpents are easier to use than Night Scythes for fucks sake.

>> No.26983768

>Wraithknights way too strong

The CA Golden Throne tournament had quite a varied turnout, with Daemons, Dark Eldar, CSM and Space Marines placing highly.

It's not like 5th edition wasn't just 3 types of power armour and Grey Knights.

>> No.26983833

Don't get me wrong, it's still better than 5e's melta+light transport spam, but not by much. I should rephrase: 1 Wraithknight does nothing amazing. 1 Wraithknight with any Riptides is too much and essentially guarantees denying 2 objectives. I think Tau are the biggest game changer but Eldar are in a great position to abuse what counters Tau. If they'd come out alone, Necrons would be amazing VS Eldar. Eldar+Tau, not so much.

>> No.26983839

5th had all the same types of list (mech MEQ) but the power difference was no where near this great. Only the best IG/GK/SW could truly table the other books the top 4 books were just good at holding and moving. Now it's almost laughable to see a non Tau, Eldar, Daemon, Necron army they get tabled without the other guy trying

>> No.26983938

Are you using enough LOS blocking terrain? There should be at least two and maybe 5 pieces every 2 square feet. If a WS can shoot across a board, your terrain set up is messed up and you're not following the guidelines in the rulebook.

>2 chimeras and 4 IG autocannons teams
2 Multilasers, 2 Heavy Bolters, 12 Autocannons each? Really?

It's a quadgun (and 1/8)* and 2 multilasers (4 shots TL is more or less on par) most of the time, with the most optimal build.

D6+1 averages 4.5, which is 1+1/8 of how many shots a quadgun gets at the same strength. We assume it is twin-linked from the Scatter Laser.

>> No.26983940

Not having tournaments would not stop people from picking the mechanically best lists for the sole purpose of winning.
Stop whining.

>> No.26983959


Why not MoTF and spam Contemptor dreads with graviton conversion beamers? You're 13FA with a 5+ invul save, and at long range your shooting only gets better.

>> No.26984047


>Dat Swordwind!

You're a cool guy.

I've seen a couple of guys do well with footdar by drawing fire to the Avatar and something else hard to kill like a wraithknight. The avatar almost always dies, but his dudesmen are where they want to be by then.

It might be a consideration to drop one squad of reapers for a wraithlord/knight to sponge fire.

Also maybe switch ranger out for a minimum squad a jetbikes. If your opponent wants to he can easily wipe all your rangers out, but jetbikes can hide out of sight and turbo boost onto any jetbikes for last turn point scoring/contesting.

>> No.26984060


It actually does affect me. It affects you too. And yes, I have been.

The problem is that tourney-faggots spend all their time arguing about maximizing lists and strategies and how there is only ever 1 way to play the game, and then everybody starts playing that way.

Oddly enough, when some people start using cheese all the time, the only way to have a chance against them is to cheese as well.

Some people don't like to play cheese lists. Some people just want to make an army and then play it and have fun rather than saying, "THAT UNIT IS SHIT AND COMPLETELY WORTHLESS. WHY WOULD YOU EVER TAKE THAT? YOU NEED MORE [INSERT UNIT HERE]"

Thinking like that is what turns Fantasy into Always Bring Wizards (people always bring wizards because everyone always brings wizards. It's a self-perpetuating cycle). And turns 40k into "For the love of god, bring as much AA as you can possibly fit." (Although 40k also has a shit load of problems from the design end).

So, yes, people who are obsessed with spamming and min/maxing and making it as efficient as possible affect me as well. And it's really really really annoying.

Whatever happened to playing lists that were an accurate representation of the fluff of the army? Oh, it's not to maximum efficiency for points. So fuck that.

>> No.26984079

cause FW ain't legit bro

>> No.26984094

>cheese cheese cheese
The cry of a scrub

>> No.26984105


>> No.26984114

Yeah. And everyone who didn't come to WAAC, will drop after a game or two to play with other non-WAAC players.

>> No.26984130

An autocannon team=/=a Heavy Weapons Squad with all autocannons.
An autocannon team=1 autocannon.
The heavy bolter shots would be snap fired as they're not a fast vehicle. Ignoring, of course, no-one using them over heavy flamers unless they think the minimal S5 hits will do more than disouraging getting close.

So yeah, 4 BS3 autocannons+2 multilasers worth of damage. It's actually slightly better as the S7 ignores cover too but who's to judge?

And now you're back to "people are having fun wrong". It's a game. You don't get to pick for other people what they enjoy.

>> No.26984161

>Whatever happened to playing lists that were an accurate representation of the fluff of the army?
Serpent Spam is actually one of the fluffiest armies.

>> No.26984210

cant do anything about bad players not wanting to improve. Go play historical or something

>> No.26984233

Some fluffy armies are better than others. Serpent Spam is extremely fluffy. Necron flyer spam is also very fluffy and in fact one of the stories in the codex describes such an aerial raiding force. The reason no-one builds to "fluff" is because it changes every codex and is massively unbalanced to actually play.

>> No.26984238

>So yeah, 4 BS3 autocannons+2 multilasers worth of damage. It's actually slightly better as the S7 ignores cover too but who's to judge?
Doesn't ignore armour though, so anyone but Orks are getting at least a 5+ (which is more than non-PA get against Autocannon).

4 Autocannon and 2 Multilasers (at BS3) isn't really the height of expensive or high amounts of firepower - which it is equivalent to.

It's somewhat above the curve, but not massively so.

>> No.26984312

GW shat the bed with the Heldrake FAQ, like the faggots that they are. Chaos was fine. Now it's fucked.

>> No.26984330

The height of expensive? Is that a joke? Playing VS even 4 Serpents is more firepower than most of a mech IG force. Once you add in the rest of the army, you become more durable, more shooty, better at every phase and have amazing psykers. There's a reason they've fast become the dominant army to beat - they're stupidly efficient. At the end of the day, efficiency is all you need.

>> No.26984458

Are you saying non-WAAC players are bad players of WAAC players are bad players?

Because my point was that even in a bigger tournament, if you didn't go full WAAC and just wanted to play new people, WAAC players will end up in the top of the list and non-WAAC players to the bottom, and at the bottom you're not very likely to encounter the same WAAC mentality (or if you do, they're just bad players in general, so you shouldn't have trouble beating them even with a non-WAAC list). And if one gets mad because they didn't get to win, who are they to accuse others of WAACing it out, when they wanted to win as well?

>> No.26984475

Again, this problem has little to nothing to do with tournaments.
Any game that utilizes math will be subject to min/maxing. Don't complain about the tournaments - people would min/max regardless.
Some people only have fun when they're shit-stomping the enemy. These people tend to be unfun to play with, because they're either in a hissy fit because they're losing or their bragging. We call them douchebags. Don't play with them.
Some people just think it's fun to do the math. I, for one, enjoy breaking my games open and see what kind of insane shit I can manipulate the system into letting me get away with... But playing that kind of game isn't fun, because the math already told me I'm gonna win. We call it theory-crafting, and enjoy discussing it. When two of us get together, we even enjoy playing it - two high-power lists going head to head makes for a tense game.
Fact of the matter is, Tau and Eldar have some of the most point-for-point power right now along with the breadth of unit types to do some really amazing shit. If you don't want to play against that kind of list, then don't. But it's legitimately fun for a significant subset of the hobby.
Before you call me a min-maxing faggot, what I actually PLAY is Thousand Sons. I love that fluff, man.

>> No.26984514

The best players always win. Guy who did best in 5th played some half assed SW list. And WAAC = cheating, unsportsmen like conduct, etc. Not just having a strong list btw.

>> No.26984560

Well, it isn't.

>> No.26984568

>Feilding an OP Army
>mfw when I went 4-0 with Orks, and won Best Overall, and Sportmanship awards
Or you're retarded, that could be it. It's tactics too.

>> No.26984612

>gimmicked out some bad players with little experience
go to a real event like Adepticon or Nova and pull that shit

>> No.26984628

The point is it doesn't need to be. Last edition, SW were barely more efficient than anyone else. The result? They won swathes more than everyone else. That little bit more per unit makes a massive difference overall. Especially when it's a troop option. IG were in the same position at the start of 5th.

>> No.26984631

What goes into the mech IG force?

>> No.26984839

>complaining about list efficiency or "cheese" in a tournament
>assuming that its all about net lists and luck, despite there are consistent high level players that beat out tons of individuals running extremely similar lists
>not understanding that part of competitive play is to skew the die modifiers into your favor.
>all this assmad

>> No.26984856

Someone is bitter and jaded. WAAC does not mean being underhanded, cheating and un-sportsman like conduct. Those types of behavior are counter-productive to a player who plays to win. Being a dick alienates yourself from your playgroup, cheating can get you banned from events. There’s no point of playing to win if you can’t play the game at all. What WAAC does mean is metagaming, min/maxing, and utilizing everything that is within the rules to gain an edge. Bottom line is this: shitty players (nerd ragers, spergers, fun-police) exist throughout the WAAC-Fluff spectrum, those belonging to one camp tend to see the worst of the other. This thread is evident enough.

>> No.26984875

Playing to win equals cheating? Unsportsmanlike conduct is required to not play scrubbily?
>Citation Needed.

>> No.26984901

I love the current MC focused meta. Largely because i field 2 10 ma squads of deathmarks, each shooting the fuck out of something with their 3+ hit 2+ wound rends on a 6 rapid fire 24" sniper rifles. I eat riptides and wriaith/dread knights like so much toast.

>> No.26984947

>Deathmarks deepstrike at all near my riptide
>eat large blast, die

That's mainly been my experience

>> No.26985027

Which happens, yeah, but if i can i try and put both squad near the riptide so it eats 40 shots and can only blast one group. And a lot of people use the intercept deep strike thing, i dont. I think its dumb.

>> No.26985048

man /tg/ sucks at 40k. No wonder they spend more time making fap fiction and wishlisting for SOB than learning to play

>> No.26985171

Please bless us with your knowledge, then.

>> No.26985224

I play necrons and just mass warriors on the field, walk forward, and shoot. I've only lost two games so far, one was my second one ever, and the other one was recent against a dark eldar + eldar army that just hurt really bad. 2+ re-rollable invulnerable save on his archon that he put at the front so it took every shot. I feel like I could've done better if it wasn't a 2v2 and the other half of my army wasn't busy murdering ultramarines, but nah. Dark eldar venoms hurt when you just walk and shoot.

>> No.26985227


>> No.26985252

Even when the best player fields 60 penal legions, lord commissar with 5 priests and Ogryns vs. wave serpent Eldar with Tau allies?

There's being a good player and there's min/maxing, spamming the most effective units, etc. Cheating and being unsportsmanlike doesn't win you games, being the guy who does the best list possible with the most OP units and combos only to sell that away and buy a new army the moment the meta favors it, is a WAAC player. To them the game is just Magic with minis. They don't do themed lists of anything like that, just get what's most effective and use that.

>> No.26985316 [DELETED] 




>> No.26985320

Cant hurt an AV12 skimmer?
Are you fucking kidding me?

>> No.26985700

>More skill than luck based
It is, granted a good portion of that skill is list building, and most of the remaining skill is just target selection, but very rarely will you actually lose a game mostly because of luck.

>> No.26985884

>d6+1 tl s7 ignore cover shots

>> No.26985951

They shoot first anon.

>> No.26985986

With a 4+ cover save and a shield that ignores pens, yes.

>> No.26985988

If they're in the game, they're legitimate and you should feel bad for criticizing the decisions of the developers of the game that you supposedly like enough to spend money on and participate in tourneys for.

>> No.26986350

You anti tourney fucker's need to settle down. You say if its not fun the game is broke?????

How about the tourney is fucking broke? Its not easy coming up with a set of missions that keep everyone level.

Table rotation, a balance of objectives that play to different strengths, and finally taking into account a balance of vps that isn't all about fucking up your opponent make for great games and allow good players to play each other and bad players to have fun.

Jesus, its not like every tourney player are giant douche bags.

>> No.26986407

The difference being that you can easily kill a Serpent with Autocannons or missile launchers, something every army can take in bulk cheaply. You can plug away at a Riptide with said guns and not even penetrate it's armor save

>> No.26986433

d'oh gawd! I have to bring str 7-8 weapons! where can i find those!

>> No.26986441

if you want to play a competitive /tg/ game just go with MTG.
warhammer is just for fun and messing around, you can't take it too seriously

>> No.26986590

What the fuck is with Eldar and Tau players parroting this shit? You faggots have great internal balance, There are very few units that aren't at least viable. Chaos has Turkeys. Everything else is, at best low tier.

>> No.26986706

Riptides aren't as OP as everyone says they are, but they are a LOOOOOOOOONG way from shitty. They are 4/5 stars. Compare them to a similar unit, the wraithlord: more expensive, but dramatically more capable in every way.

>> No.26986766

Great Unclean One looks so tiny

>> No.26986782


There can only be one at the top.

>> No.26986830

Because he is. The GW Great Unclean One model is FUCKING TINY.

>> No.26986994

>knowing anything instead of being a delusional being whose predictions about everything always come out wrong

>> No.26987014

Why don't you assault it? :^)

>> No.26987053

This thread has been up for almost 24 hours.

>> No.26987069

Played two 3000 pt games yesterday and won them all, only one by a narrow margin. My list:

LanceArch w/ Celestial Lance
LanceArch w/ Mantle and Firesabre
2 Spiritseers, one w/ Spear of Teuthlas, other with Wraithforge Stone

Warlocks x 10
2 x Dire Avengers x 10 w/ Grace & Shimmershield
3 x Jetbikes x 3 w/ ShuriCannon
2 x Rangers x 10
2 x Wraithlords with Bright Lances
2 x Holo Prisms
Shining Spears x 9 w/ Star Lance & Hit & Run

As I call the 2000 pt version of this list my "One Two Punch", this is the "Four Five Punch"

Wraithlords are 2/5 stars this edition, (buy Wriathknights! says GW) they are not so bad as long as they have the Wraithforge Stone and some healer Warlocks/Spiritseers following them around.

>> No.26987130

At what exact point do Wave Serpents become spammy? I try to run a reasonable Eldar list that fights the way a dying race should, and as such the three Guardian squads I field are in Serpents. I've been accused of spam for this recently.

So what does /tg/ think? Where does it stop being reasonable and spam begins?

>> No.26987174


It isn't that we can't kill one or two of them. It is that there are nine of the goddamn things with a riptide protecting them from drop pods with its interceptor ion cannon.

>> No.26987199

60" range vs 48" range. try again.

>> No.26987201

It becomes Wave Serpent spam when you begin to win the battle.
Yes, even if you have 0 Wave Serpents.

>> No.26987258

Two Serpents should be fine and anyone that bitches at you for taking them is an idiot. Three is okayish, but after that it starts getting spammy.

>> No.26987293

Yes, but you can't cry about both the extra gun AND the shield (that doesn't ignore pens by the way, merely reduces most of them to glances)

>> No.26987308

I think the spine is meant to be similar to the tyrannofex/tervigon, who have a similar body shape. It's more pronounced on the heirophant because that model is proportionally thinner at the front end.

>> No.26987312

How many Wave Serpents/Heldrakes/Riptides per 1000 points?
Let's just hit all the cancerous units in one post and establish some ground rules.

>> No.26987324

Then he couldn't whine about it

>> No.26987386

Not arguing with whatever point you are making, mostly because I don't understand whatever point you are making. What has a 60" range? Nothing a Serpent can take does, and the only thing it can take that has 48" range is it's worst choice: the missile launcher.

>> No.26987429

Eh, it's kinda hard to establish exact rules beyond 'more than four/two/two at 1500' is insane. I mean, different lists have different pointsinks.

If someone likes going mech, they're gonna have more transports. If someone thinks Riptides are super cool (I can empathize with this, even if I don't play Tau) they might want two in a relatively small list.

>> No.26987447 [DELETED] 


>> No.26987740

I think riptides are super cool, but I don't think I want more than one. Their coolness has a conservation of ninjutsu effect to it, I think.

>> No.26987851

Close, but I'd say 4/2/2 in 2000. Serpents are by far the weakest of the 3, and most easily counter-able by a balanced list. If you haven't brought anti-air or massive amounts of anti-MC power Heldrakes or Riptides you simply can't fight them. Therein lies the cheese.

>> No.26987960

I think 2000 points is the tipping point where spam starts to become less of an issue, really. Since double force org at that point allows you to better fill in counters for these things.

>> No.26988035


I have trouble assaulting fast vehicles with 60" weapons.

>> No.26988050


The serpent's shield gun is 60" you piece of shit. Of course you don't think the WS is OP you don't even fucking know how it works.

>> No.26988060

Can someone tell me specifically what the problem is with the Riptide?

>> No.26988070


People don't take Riptides because they're cool. They take Riptides so they can drown you in robot mantits.

>> No.26988080


3 of them are too hard to kill and can't be ignored and they only cost around 200 points. Tau complain that they're too expensive to take 3 of but we all know everything in the Tau book is an underpriced piece of shit anyway.

>> No.26988108

>everything in the Tau book is an underpriced piece of shit anyway.

>> No.26988119

I agree entirely that taking three makes a very tough list, and at less than 1500 is nothing more than cheese; however, what is the issue with ensuring redundancy (when above 1500)? Also, why wouldn't the same tactics to take out monstrous creatures work against the riptide?

>> No.26988161


Because not every book has an easy way to deal with MC spam.

There's nothing wrong with "ensuring redundancy" but don't bother acting like you don't know what's so bad about it. If you're going to cheese then cheese. I'm a competitive player too and if I made a list to utterly curbstomp faggots I don't go all surprised and act like a clueless piece of shit as to why people are so upset.

>> No.26988209

My view is that I would only include 2 riptides at most. They give a survivable firebase that is rather versatile. I understand the vitriol about Tau being able to beat people now, but you shouldn't get so mad about it bro

>> No.26988274

Because currently monstrous creatures aside from the riptide don't have their 2+, possible 3++, t7, FNP shenangians and large large movement ranges

>> No.26988348

So, if the new Meta is MC.lst, wht if I took a list like this:

Celestine - 115

Celestians x5 - 135
Melta x2

Celestians x5 - 135
Melta x2

Celestians x5 - 135
Melta x2

Battle Sisters x10 - 165
Heavy Bolter

Battle Sisters x10 - 165
Heavy Bolter

Battle Sisters x10 - 165
Heavy Bolter

Battle Sisters x10 - 165
Heavy Bolter

Dominions x5 - 125
Melta x2

Dominions x5 - 125
Melta x2

Dominions x5 - 125
Melta x2

Exorcist - 135
Exorcist - 135
Exorcist - 135

Total: 1845

10 Rhinos, 3 Exorcists, 12 Meltas, and 4 useless Heavy Bolters sitting on objectives.

>> No.26988363

>Go to a tournament
>See 8/10 players run Tau/Eldar
>Repack my army
>Piss and shit all over both restrooms

Only true justice

>> No.26988415

Riptide is T6, 3++ and having a large movement range are mutually exclusive, FNP is extra costs but almost mandatory because it's so good. However, if you don't include ways of getting through 2+ armour in your army such as plasma or lascannons then you are a retard that deserves to get his list spanked.

I would also like to mention the wraithknight.

>> No.26988512

Kinda true, but a balanced list will almost always get beaten by a cheese list. My drumbeat of 'Serpents aren't spam' is mostly due to a balanced list CAN beat them, whereas Rips and Turkeys can easily be out of reach.

>> No.26988539

What if you just try to drown it in BRRRRRRRRRRRT 'cause AP- is the same as AP 3-or-more

>> No.26988551

>However, if you don't include ways of getting through 2+ armour in your army such as plasma or lascannons then you are a retard that deserves to get his list spanked.

It takes average 14-15 lascannon shots to kill a Riptide.

No one except DE, Tau or IG can reliably kill Riptides via wounds. Everyone else has to rely on ID gimmicks, including Eldar.

>> No.26988555

Dear god save us from 3-4 S7 no AP non-twin-linked shots coming out of a 150 point AV12 vehicle. What could be more broken than that?!

>> No.26988564

>I would also like to mention the wraithknight.

Why don't you go look at how much the WK costs.

Because that's what the Riptide should cost.

>> No.26988575



You can pot shot any vehicle's side armor from across the board

Stop being fucking bad.

>> No.26988585

>talking shit when he didn't even know the gun had a 60" range

>> No.26988627

I know it had a 60" range. I also know it's not a gun. It's the only way to keep an AV12 vehicle alive for more than a turn. Once again, you can't whine about both at the same time.

>> No.26988672

So true

12" inches of movement isn't going to get you into side armor unless your opponent is being a dumbass.

Stop not understanding how fast vehicles work.

>> No.26988718

fucking synergies with Tau
if you ignore them, they wreck your ass
if you dont ignore them, they will still be alive in T3, nut the rest of the faggots Tau will spam you with markers

to shoot at Serpents is at least the best thing you can do and should be everyones strategy

>> No.26988732


Really? Fucking show me how you are supposed to protect your side armor if your opponent puts half his WS on one end of the board and half of his on the other. It's not like you can use cover to protect yourself either.

>> No.26988781


Can you please stop posting? Or at least stop being wrong if you're going to post.

>> No.26988848

Basic shooty vehicle movement.

People like >>26988672 is just a bad player.

>> No.26988942

Dear god, so 450 pts of Serpents working in concert can destroy one 90 pt lightly armored artillery piece. Oh the cheese. Don't forget that dropping that shield = dead Serpent next turn. Don't know what math you guys use but that seems like a bad trade to me.

Hey rocket scientist(s). Haven't lost a game in 4 years.

>> No.26988962

It's tough and dangerous enough to demand attention, if if you give it attention, every other nasty thing on his side will not be dying enough.

So basicly you have to bend over, let the Riptide pound your ass hard until you take out the markerlights, thereby reducing the Rapetides anal assault to a gentle prison lovin'.

>> No.26988979

>working in concert

Notice how the third one doesn't even need to do anything. It just sits there and forces side armor exposure.

Also realize that if that were a C:SM tank he'd be SOL. Every army having board-wide range or viable parking lot armies is not the norm, you faggot.

>> No.26988991


You've been wrong like 3 times in a row and just bring up more wrong points so just stop posting.

>hurr durr how does WS have 60"

>> No.26989004

Splitting vehicles like that puts almost every single vehicle on the board in a very awkward position.

Also saying you haven't lost a game in like 4 years says that you're either lying, haven't played the game much, or your meta sucks

>> No.26989018

>Hey rocket scientist(s). Haven't played a game in 4 years.

>> No.26989029

don't feorget it's only a 40% chance to destroy that Basilisk, and let's hope there isn't something that blocks LOS on the field that an opponent with a functional brain might hide behind

>> No.26989072

It's not as if the Basilisk would be in open cover. In fact, why doesn't it turn 10 degrees more, then get front armour facing the two serpents, and the first serpent is firing through LOS blocking terrain.

>> No.26989091


If favorable LoS was a valid argument then assault armies would be top tier and nobody would give a shit about Eldar and Tau.

And yet Eldar and Tau are the top armies. Most likely because tournament terrain sucks dick and even casual games with the rulebook recommended 25% board coverage isn't enough, even if EVERY piece of terrain blocks LoS.

LoS as an argument makes the Heldrake look even more retarded than it already is.

>> No.26989101


If the Basilisk turns too much the left-most WS has open shot to the side armor.

>> No.26989113

>line of sight

WS ignores cover. If you see even a milimeter of enemy vehicle you get a full hit.

>> No.26989129

Na, 25% visibility needed to target.

>> No.26989156

>not realizing "I" am more than one person.

And what the actual fuck? Are we seriously arguing that a Fast vehicle with an S7 gun is irrevocably broken for that reason? I get the complaints if an opponent takes 8 in 2000, but 1200 pts of anything is a lot to deal with.

Arguing the Serpent is unbalanced is just wrong, arguing that cheesing out a good model is chessy is, well, self-evident.

>> No.26989184

the main problem is the Scatter Laser makes the Serpent Shield way too reliable.

>> No.26989189

Tournament terrain DOES suck serious dick, not gonna argue there. But thinking that there won't be a SINGLE piece to protect your side with is a bit much.

>> No.26989199

25% of vehicle must be in cover to get a save. that the serpent ignores

>> No.26989200

Celestine is only good against Wraithknights because she's AP3. If you want to murk riptides, take Jacobus + 5 Crusaders + 4 Assassins with axes in a rhino and go stomp that shit.

Bump off one Sister squad, and trade out one exorcist for a heavy bolter retributor squad.

Cram meltas into your normal sisters instead of HB's. You need them moving. Give two squads double flamer to deal with the MC's support.

Give combi-meltas/plasmas to all of your superiors.

You'll be able to wreck MEQ, Riptide heavy Tau, wave serpents, and gunline IG. The only thing you'd have problems with is heavy-horde armies, like nids or orks. Which no one plays, at least here.

>> No.26989213

Um... no, that isn't a thing. If you can see the enemy AT ALL, you can shoot it.

>> No.26989240

You can shoot at it, but using terrain in an intelligent fashion will mean your opponent has to hit your front armor, which is usually pretty difficult for a mere S7 to damage.

True, but you better hope you are killing the last enemy unit on the board when you fire the Shield, 'cuz you are dead on the return fire.

>> No.26989269

The battlefield in the pic is like a big open field though.

Generally we deploy a big centrepiece terrain in the middle of the battlefield, then have enough pieces dotted around it, usually large ruins and walls.

>> No.26989293


People take 6 in 1500-1850 stop being stupid.

>> No.26989312

>Arguing the Serpent is unbalanced is just wrong, arguing that cheesing out a good model is chessy is, well, self-evident.

If it's balanced it can't be cheesed. WS, Riptide, Tau army in general, and Heldrake are cheesy and unbalanced as fuck.

Be ignorant all you want it's obvious you're wrong. Tau and Eldar are the new IG platoon/Vendetta/Heldrake allies and those were the new Necrons/GK and those were the new IG leafblower, etc.

>> No.26989334


Using terrain in an intelligent fashion makes Mandrakes good. After all, they can't shoot at them.

"Just LoS it" is not a viable argument. The Wave Serpent is broken.

>> No.26989341


You're still 60" away, and you can just move the other Wave Serpents in front of the unshielded one with your fast movement.

>> No.26989349

I anxiously await the return of the blessed "0-1" entry.

>> No.26989351


Tournaments never use blocking terrain centerpieces. I have no idea why, it's a good idea to do so.

>> No.26989369

Well if an opponent took 1000ish points of Grots it would be a handful to deal with if you had a normal army. The reason the Serpent isn't broken is because (all together now) YOU CAN KILL IT WITH JUST ABOUT ANYTHING. Autocannons and MLs work just fine. Heck, all the talk about the awesomeness of fast vehicles, just turboboost some bikes and shoot it in the butt with BOLT PISTOLS. Can you seriously not get enough bolters in your army?

>> No.26989372

Serpents will never be 0-1

>> No.26989388

It's hard countered by Land Raiders.

>> No.26989435

Not saying "Just LoS it" renders something invulnerable, just saying assuming a Fast vehicle will always get a side shot turn one (the argument that was being presented) is not a valid argument when it is pretty easy to prevent.

Turn 2-3, quite possibly, but before then...

>> No.26989441

Because cheese-lords will cry about invalidating my army specificity and melee favouritism.

Of course not, they are transports.
But in general, a lot of entries could do with a 0-1
Hell I play IG and I would shed no tears if Vendettas were ruled to lose transport capacity to fit extra generators for the lascannons, or even shifted into Heavy Support.

>> No.26989446

They make the game much more fun. More emphasis on movement and positioning.

>> No.26989451

Or guardsmen heavy weapon teams

>> No.26989467

that lascannon idea is pretty damn good...

>> No.26989475

Turn 1 is likely to be night fighting. You won't get the angle and be in range, even if you ignore cover thanks to the 36"+ dead zone.

>> No.26989528

I think the biggest reason I hate Heldrakes/Riptides/Wave Serpents is because they're so good that it skews perception around the rest of the codex, or makes just "average" units look terrible in comparison.

I play CSM. I take a single Heldrake and two squads of Raptors because I fucking like raptors, and every time I bring out my models some annoying tourney fuck is all "YOU SHOULD TAKE TWO MORE HELDRAKES INSTEAD BECAUSE YOU CAN WIN MORE."

Fuck you people.

>> No.26989529


It takes an inordinate amount of anything to kill it. You can't kill it with bolters and C:SM cannot viably spam S6 or S7.

Tau and IG can, but the serpent outranges ACs and MLs.

>> No.26989532

If you yourself build a sufficiently tall and long wall with no holes whatsoever for LOS, sure you can.

I like balance, internal and general, and no one option should ever make all other inherently inferior in stats and points.

>> No.26989552


Except that's not the argument being presented. No one said that anywhere ever.

>> No.26989586

What I learned from this thread is that the only way to beat Wave Serpents is to cover the board with grots so it can't move, play a bike army (we already knew WS bikers are gonna be cheese in 6E), or be IG/Tau.

Totally balanced.

>> No.26989600


Or take Land Raiders. Hard counter a 145 DT with a 250 point HS.

>> No.26989601

...the absence of replies other than this one is curious.

>> No.26989618

>cover the board with grots
This is the solution to every problem.

>> No.26989670


Rune Priests and splinter weaapons and even relentless grav platforms demolish MCs way better than that list and come with the benefit of not being attached to a shitty SoB detachment.

>> No.26989696

Yeah, I didn't expect anyone to like it, but I surprised no one was pitching it to say they didn't.

It's /tg/'s own Meta.

>> No.26989698

You can also cover the table with trukks and ram them/everything.

>> No.26989728

>Giant robot
>Not fun.

>> No.26989742


>> No.26989810

I play IG, I take Valkyries over Vendettas because I prefer the missile pod look and shod&awe theme with Storm-troopers inside rather than Meltavets.

Generally Runepriests and Wolves in general are far underrated, 90% of all the furry yiff-yiff noise is made as the necbards limp home after taking the knot hard.

>> No.26989819


If I played IG I'd use Vultures over Valks and Vendettas. But I'd play EDT so I'd be taking Valks and Vendettas anyway.

>> No.26989823


Wolves are still top tier if the opponent has no flyers. That's my opinion. Not surprised they've been cropping up lately with Heldrake in decline, pods for WS, and jaws for Riptide.

>> No.26989890

I really don't like flyers at all but even I'm tempted to buy a Vulture because, because, becau- BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT

>> No.26989923


I play C:SM. This is how I do it.

1 Librarian

10 Terminators with 2 Assault Cannons
10 Terminators with 2 Assault Cannons
10 Terminators with 2 Assault Cannons

5 Scouts
5 Scouts

1 Contemptor Mortis with 2 Kheres Assault Cannon
1 Contemptor Mortis with 2 Kheres Assault Cannon
1 Contemptor Mortis with 2 Kheres Assault Cannon

>> No.26989925

>No blocking terrain centerpieces.
>More emphasis on movement and positioning.

But isn't that a contradiction anon?

>> No.26989931

And they are fucking cheap.
15 points for bolter, pistol, full 'nade set, ccw, counter attack, acute senses, special weapons with 5 point discount 0/5/10 flamer/melta/plasma, option for a second FREE special weapon at 10 men.

That's a lot of shit as basic marine price.
Oh and their sergeant of ANY unit gets to play stominator and fuck with wound allocation.

Even in the unit of.. Split firing Devastators that ALL get to take a heavy weapon.

>> No.26989933

>But in general, a lot of entries could do with a 0-1
I'm coming into 40K in 6E, so I don't know what this is referencing. Mind giving me a quick summary so that I understand what change is being posited?

>> No.26989938

So, as someone who doesn't play Warhammer, explain this to me:

What does it matter that he has a 'cheesy list' at a tournament? Yes, I understand that the REAL crime was him whining about how OP your shit was, when his was worse, but at a tournament you should be bringing the most unfair, likely-to-win horseshit you can sling, yes?

>> No.26989948

Wave Serpents can't fire their shield anymore, nothing else changes - are they fixed?
I play Eldar myself.

>> No.26989959

Mean a maximum of one choice from the mentioned unit entry.

>> No.26989960

What's your favourite codex?


>> No.26989964


Technically the 1 point extra right now doesn't cover the free nades since everyone has them.

>> No.26989979


It doesn't. But the only way he can complain about it is by using tournament scenarios since nobody is that much of an asshole to cheese that hard in a casual friendly lgame.

>> No.26989982

means you can only take 0-1 per army list/force organization chart

>> No.26989987


That's too harsh and I don't play Eldar. Remove twinlink or remove ignore cover or increase price by 10-15 and I'd be fine with WS.

>> No.26989994

u think i can use papermade space marines to play this game? this shit cost so much ):

>> No.26989996

As is?
Though that's a blend of nostalgia, rules, fluff and modelling.

Guardsmen sure as hell don't, and they are 5th same as the vikings

>> No.26990003

So, to put this into Magic terms so I'll understand:

Nobody is going to bat an eye if you bring Shardless BUG to a Legacy tournament, because no duh, you're trying to win. If you then proceed to play this very good deck while whining about Belcher, you are an asshole, and if you bring this deck to casual night, you are an asshole?

>> No.26990024

I'd change it up, make it do pitiful damage, but "stun" the enemy, making them loose their overwatch/put them at I1.

>> No.26990029

Say good bye to those scouts. And all your scoring.

>> No.26990031



>> No.26990034


Use Vial Goblins as the example since that deck is packed with far more bullshit. Or better yet, Skullclamp.

>> No.26990047


C:SM and BA have free nades in 5th and are older than SW.

>> No.26990055


Space Marines are cheap as fuck. You can't afford $1-2 a marine?

>> No.26990059

Ah, all right. I hear the term 'cheese' every now and then with Warhammer, and I guess I didn't realize how little 'tournament' play there is. It baffled me.

Now that I understand it's mostly casual fuck-around fun and that you leech all the fun for BOTH sides out of it with these horseshit 'cheese' lists, I get it.

>> No.26990066

No, some people most certainly are.

This is how local metas get ruined, because certain players WILL up the ante when given the chance, and next thing you know its top-tier-or-go-home as far as the eye can see.

>> No.26990089

>at a tournament you should be bringing the most unfair, likely-to-win horseshit you can sling
That is correct.
The real problem however is that the three strongest armies at the moment each owe this to a single massively imbalanced choice that is either so cost-effective (wave serpent) or so hard to counter and devastating (helldrake) or a bit of both (riptide) that no list can compete but the three that spam their repective ace to no end.
This leads to an incredible boring metagame consisting of three lists that have a chance at winning a tournament instead of hundreds as one would assume considering the dozens of different units in every codex.
(Compare this post: >>26983306)

>> No.26990090

Oh. Well, isn't that kind of limited to apply to an army's dedicated transport unit?

>> No.26990091


Warhammer is far less competitive and more scrubby than M:tG. Even in M:tG you will get "kitchen sink" opinions that complain about perfectly legit competitive mindsets and strategies.

It's like you've never heard of whiny casuals before.

>> No.26990096


You know all those threads on /tg/ that talk shit about netdecking? Like how it means "you suck" and "don't know how to build a deck" because you netdeck?

>> No.26990099

Another thing you have to keep in mind is that warhammer takes mroe time to set up and play than a game of magic, and as a result a lot of the fanbase doesn't actually play it as often as they might. This:
A) Makes them more defensive of their fun/gaming time.
B) Means a lot of fans spend more time on the 'net talking about the game than actually playing it, which leads to a lot of bitching and groupthink.

>> No.26990104


Yeah the REAL problem with comp play in 40k is that it's play Tau or Eldar or go home.

Street Fighter had this problem too though.

>> No.26990110

Local player is currently cheesing out Tau, looking to pick up a Cheesy Helldra...Chaos army with IG support, and a Jetdar army.

"Because then people can't refuse to play his because he only plays the best"

>> No.26990113

I find collecting and painting my army to be part of the fun.
But I do it slowly, and only after I'm sure about what I want and enjoy.
Use flats until you're sure about your army choice. Nothing is worse than buying up 500-1000 points of models and then realize that you don't really enjoy playing them.

>> No.26990121

>2 grav centurion units

Pffft please. I'd rather run White Scar grav bikers or rune priest allies.

>> No.26990131


Well then your fucking dedicated transport shouldn't be so goddamn overpowered. It's better than some armys' main battle tanks.

>> No.26990141

Also more expensive to collect and takes build/paint time as well.

Only plus in my tourney meta, no paint, no play.
Keeps the FOTM players pace down.

>> No.26990159

>Oh, and the overall winner? 4 Riptide list.

Fuck this gay earth.

>> No.26990175

Right. So it's something I'd be open to applying to, say, the Heldrake (though Chaos would need a buff somewhere else - it honestly sometimes feels like Heldrakes are the only thing keep it together) - but the Wave Serpent should be nerfed in some other way.

>> No.26990184

Nope better solution is:
S9/10 are treated as S8, no weapon rolls more than 1d6 for armour penetration, shield can be deactivated to give assault vehicle.

But that wont happen so the most obvious FAQ is that 60"was a typo its actually 6"

>> No.26990185

>some armys' main battle tanks.

What army has an MBT better than the Wave Serpent?

The only two I can think of that are even anywhere close, are the Leman Russ and Hammerhead.

>> No.26990204

I'm tempted to run a Space-wolf army just to Jaws of the world wolf their 'tides to hell, and shove so many special weapon scouts up their infantry's ass that they'll vomit promthium

>> No.26990216

So if you lose in 40k you are actually winning? Cuz that old Mario Party adage. LOSING IS WINNING!

>> No.26990226

Its worth noting that before their respective codices Eldar and Tau were almost non existant on the tournament scene, Eldar was only ever seen as allies.

Its swings and roundabouts, lists get good and bad all the time, and GW has given up doing to much inter race balance.

>> No.26990232


I don't give a shit about not being able to melta WS because it means they have to keep their shield up and GW should be giving every army tools to strip medium armor instead of relying on suicidal melta spam.

>> No.26990241

>better solution is to make the WS even more overpowered

You kidding?

>> No.26990250

>Its swings and roundabouts

Some armies have never been popular or good.

>> No.26990258

Land raiders (though they can be dedicated transports)

Vendettas, Russes, Battlewagons.

>> No.26990266


>calling redcoats scrubs

top lel

>> No.26990272

>Some armies have never been popular or good.
Really? Like who?

>> No.26990274


Isn't CSM the only one that can spam DT LRs? C:SM only gets one.

>> No.26990290


Vendettas aren't MBTs.

LRs aren't MBTs and can't outshoot a WS.

Battlewagons? Really?

>> No.26990298


SoB? C:SM is popular but they've never been "IF YOU WANNA GET 1st PLACE YOU GOTTA PLAY VANILLA"

>> No.26990299


>> No.26990304

I do have a hard time believing the Eye of Terror codex was ever popular or good.

But that's a bit before my time

>> No.26990305

Na, if you are having fun, you are wining, especially if the opponent is too.

'why I'm hoping Orks get even more random hilarity.
Not dull shit like D3 shot lootas.
I want fucking anarchy, the ability to break every rules set forth in the core rulebook and most of all, I want "Life is cheap", or "Hah this'll be a roight laff'".

The only certainty should be that carnage will ensue, bullets will fly, and green is best.

>> No.26990325

>Leeman Russ Battle tank is not a MBT

Well shit do they need to be a troop selection to be a MBT now?

>> No.26990328

Recent rumor says lootas can take a gun from a defeated unit for a single use.

>> No.26990334

>Vendettas aren't MBTs.
Then what are they? super cheap av12 tank destroyers?
>LRs aren't MBTs and can't outshoot a WS.
why arent they? and while true they will survive longer and can be much better at dealing with infantry.
>Battlewagons? Really?
Yup. cheap DakkaRolla Wagons are the second best unit in the book.

>> No.26990337

Wave Serpents are stupidly good again?

Great! That means I can start bringing out this picture again.

>> No.26990359


They're flyers. Seriously? It's not even a tank.

>> No.26990361

I want that, and real looted vehicles, and transports that'll carry however many you can stack on nem, gits that fall off, they iz too daft ta live.

>> No.26990369


LR means land raider

>> No.26990377

>I'm looking forward to the Ork fluff shake-up Ward will surely deliver.
Deliver unto me a less boring Ork, my Liege!

>> No.26990385

Well shit, 50/50 chance of getting it right.

>> No.26990388

I don't think you realize what a Main Battle Tank is.

Vendetta is a flyer. So thats out.

Land Raiders are effectively an ultra heavy IFV. It's offensive capability is piss poor weak for the amount of resources poured into it.

A battlewagon is a jeep that happens to have metal plates roughly toward the front acting as armor.

>> No.26990396

>Eye of Terror codex
Wulfen lists, webway deploying Eldar at the height of Eldar faggotry, LoTD were all pretty damn good.
Witch Hunters were pretty damn good when they were launched, not #1 but pretty good.
>C:SM is popular but they've never been "IF YOU WANNA GET 1st PLACE YOU GOTTA PLAY VANILLA"
Except for that time at the start of 5th when they were. They have also been the most consistently updated book, leading to them almost never being below mid tier.

>> No.26990401

Tau and Eldar are so disproportionately good because of a single choice in their codex. if those 2 units were nerfed, they could still stand their ground (especially tau) and we would have a rather balanced meta (for 40k standards at least) and see 5-6 factions in the tournament top spots instead of 2.
You really don't have a point thus.

>> No.26990447

>A battlewagon is a:
battering ram affixed with spinny blades, squashy rollas, stabby spiked and festooned with guns and filled to the brim with heavily armed lunatics.

>> No.26990456

>Vendetta is a flyer. So thats out.
Why? its more effective than most MBss int this game.
>Land Raiders are effectively an ultra heavy IFV. It's offensive capability is piss poor weak for the amount of resources poured into it.
okay this I can kinda accept, I would still rather a land raider over the current waveserpent.
>A battlewagon is a jeep that happens to have metal plates roughly toward the front acting as armor.
a HP4 av 14 jeep that can very cheaply mount 4 anti infantry guns and the ability to ram and destroy any vehicle in the game, oh and you can give it anti tank weapons if you like. oh and take 8 in a single FOC.

>> No.26990470


All you had to do was follow the quotes back to the first guy saying "Land Raiders".

It takes 2 seconds.

>> No.26990500

>Land raiders (though they can be dedicated transports)

Vendettas, >Russes<, Battlewagons.

>> No.26990567


>very cheaply mount 4 anti infantry guns

...With Ork accuracy. 12 shots is still an average of only 4 hits. If it's going at the speed it should be to hope to be able to:

>ram and destroy any vehicle in the game

It's going to average even less.

>you can give it anti tank weapons if you like. oh and take 8 in a single FOC.

Calling a Kannon or Zzap Kannon "anti-tank" is laughable. Taking 8 BWs in a single FOC means sacrificing the slots you need for the BEST unit in the codex.

Wagon spam is a gimmick. You act like these things don't have a side armor you can penetrate by sneezing. When we're talking about going up against fast skimmers, they can get a shot on that side armor without a problem.

>> No.26990571

Just played tau at a local tourny as pure tau, bat man commander utility belt and everything, got 8th place.

>> No.26990614


nice list

you could take a ranger/dire avenger out and give the avatar night vision or monster hunter

also theres not much anti flyer stuff apart from the avatar on the lascannon

>> No.26990648

ram + 1d6 str 10 hits.

>> No.26990683

>also theres not much anti flyer stuff apart from the avatar on the lascannon
this is actually a valid concern if this was for competitive play, but its more of a fun list to play against mates who aren't spamming disgusting flyers.

>> No.26990821

Do Thunderhammers work against Riptides?

>> No.26990846

Normally if you get close enough

>> No.26991146

Whatvif sister of battle had a hammer that for the first hit hit as hard as a Multi Melta Heavy Weapons but was much weaker after the first hit connected?

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