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26595454 No.26595454 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

-Chaplains are HQ , W:2, A:2 and grant Zealot.
-Master of the Forge gains It Will Not Die
-Scouts drop 2 points, can take LS Storm as a dedicated transport.
-Tacticals drop 2 points.
-Devastators drop 2 points.
-Sternguard drop 3 points.
-Vanguard drop 1 point, jumppack option drops 7 points.
-Honour guard are cheaper.
-SM Bikes drop 4 points.
-Hunter/Stalker re both armed with s:7 weapons (Stalker heavy4, Hunter heavy1). The Hunter's weapon is AP:2 Armorbane.
-Command Squads may take bikes, and a bike-equipped Commander makes a SM Biker unit troops.
-Crusader Squads may take 2 power weapons per squad. Costed and equipped as Tacticals as standard. May swap out for BP/CCW for free. Max size 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes.
-Centurions WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 Ld8/9 Sv2, Squad size 3-6, each costed as a Predator.

>> No.26595461
File: 444 KB, 800x612, qp92wevb.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

- Raven Guard have Stealth, may use jump packs in movement AND assault phase.
- Imperial Fists reroll '1s' to hit with standard bolters (Bolter Drill). Devatators/Centurions have Tank Hunters and +1 on the building damage table.
- Salamanders reroll failed to-wounds with flame weapons, and failed armor penetration rolls versus vehicles. Characters gain a free master crafted weapon. Vulkan is the only way to grant twin-linked meltas.
- Black Templars have Chapter Tactics options instead of Vows. The Emperor's Champion is an HQ choice for them only and chooses from either (reroll failed to-hits plus rending in challenges), or (gain Adamantium Will plus Crusader). No Librarians allowed.
- Ultramarines choose from one of the following donctrines:
a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.
b) Assault - Re-roll charge distance, unless they're Assault squads, Bikes, Attack bikes who gain Fleet.
c) Devstator - Re-roll on snap shots and overwatch, unless they're Devastators who gain Relentless (except when disembarking).
- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops
- Successor Chapter use the Chapter Tactics of their Founding Chapter. Many Successor Chapters are listed by name.

>> No.26595471

>Dat cannon
I need a double barreled variant of that turret on a land raider.

>> No.26595475
File: 502 KB, 800x638, jn4rujoi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

6 new Chapter Relics
Grav Weapons have Concussive

>> No.26595482
File: 339 KB, 800x432, drbs97t3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

-Marneus Calgar may take 3 Warlord Traits and is pricier.
-Korsarro Khan grants Scout to mounted troops and bikes. He inflicts D3 Hammer of Wrath hits.
-Kayvan Shrike may Infiltrate with Jumppack units.
-Emperor's Champion equipped with AP:2 sword, armor is 2+/4+i
-High-Marshal Helbrecht grants Hatred and Fleet to Black Templars in the Assault phase once per game.
-Lysander returns with Eternal Warrior, Units in 12" re-roll on morale and pinning test.
-Grimaldus Grants Zealot to his unit.
-Several Named Characters retain USRs that affect their entire army.

>> No.26595498

>-Centurions WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 Ld8/9 Sv2, Squad size 3-6, each costed as a Predator.

Really? They somehow manage to keep init 4 in that clanker of a suit?

>> No.26595526

>-Chaplains are HQ , W:2, A:2 and grant Zealot.


Why the fuck do Blood Angels have the better Chaplins?

>> No.26595527
File: 92 KB, 1024x768, yhhhuwk8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Iron Hands also have Chapter Tactics who give FnP 6+ for the whole army and vehicles gain It Will Not Die

Black Templars chapter tactics unknown so far

>> No.26595536

vanilla hqs need more wounds man

Every other opponents HQs has W3 minimum.marines have no good generic assault hq all the assault beasts are named chars and severely overpriced

>> No.26595555

>tactical point reduction
>sternguard point reduction
>vanguard point reduction
>stalker S7 heavy 4 so we can finally spam S7

I can't stop jizzing all over the place.

>> No.26595563

>Marneus Calgar is pricier




Lysander point increase pisses me off to. I know we make up for the increase with savings elsewhere but really it's ridiculous how much our HQs cost.

>> No.26595568

" White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops"
I hope your fucking with me Anon, my all bike list invalid unless I take 3 hqs.

>> No.26595570
File: 22 KB, 610x310, 610_chaplin_intro.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>better Chaplins

>> No.26595574


How much for a tacticool marine now?

>> No.26595581

That's what I get for not proofreading my posts.

That also gave me a chuckle. Just one though.

>> No.26595583

I can't wait to roll devistator devistators and just blow every mother fucker up

>> No.26595591

So that Tu'shan model rumor wasn't real? I'm mildly disappointed.

>> No.26595601



>> No.26595603


Agemman model rumor wasn't real either. I'm disappoint.

>> No.26595615
File: 388 KB, 800x1031, 1376286076921.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

cause 'marineception

>> No.26595621


1 point for ATSKNF... Not bad!

>> No.26595625


CSM are overpriced if anything cause DA are also 14 points. CSM should be having their CCW or veteran long war for free or be 12 point base.

>> No.26595634

What's the fluff on the Centurions? I'd like to see how the writers pull this out of their ass.

>> No.26595651

Good reason for the arms though. Remember there was some /tg/-bitching about how GW being idiots and ripping marine-arms off.

>> No.26595675

Has anyone got those Sternguard pictures?
Also, what about that picture of a Marine's head with a beard that was leaked around the time of the three HQs?

>> No.26595692

>Vulkan is the only way to grant twin-linked meltas
Looks like my HQ selection won't be changing.
I hope Master of the Forge gets his own model too.

Captcha: adeptsf sisters
Maybe I should start s SoB army...

>> No.26595699
File: 41 KB, 250x352, sternguard1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


I've got the 4 Sternguard, dumping. No beardies though.

>> No.26595702


You're talking about either one of the Sternguard or the Librarian.

>> No.26595704

They completly take over terminator niche.
It seems like termies are just glorified reactor suits now.

>> No.26595707
File: 48 KB, 302x376, sternguard2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.26595714
File: 45 KB, 301x351, sternguard3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.26595717
File: 204 KB, 706x496, Centurions.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Centurions /w close quarters combat equipment

but srsly never paint them iron fist style

>> No.26595724
File: 46 KB, 301x373, sternguard4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.26595733

At least those have helmets on.

>> No.26595734

I haven't been following 40k rule changes too closely, but that feels like a lot of re-rolls for Ultras. Isn't this rather large boost across the board? (as if we should not have expected this).

BS4 means, what, a 3+ to hit most of the time? A re-roll on a missed shot (or snap shot or overwatch) is a big increase.

>> No.26595748
File: 81 KB, 515x768, MkVIII_Errant.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>those Mk8 legs
hot damn, they actually did it.

>> No.26595753

Damn, 2 heavy 4 strength guns that can target 2 targets on the stalker, that's pretty fuckin' good. The s7 ap 2 armor bane isn't bad either.

>> No.26595760


Too bad it's one piece molded plastic with the tabard attached and not an actual mk 8 leg you can use on anything.

>> No.26595770


Yes it is. It sounds piddly but it's actually something like a 22% boost to non-tacs, 88% boost to tacs, and 66% army wide boost.

A lot of the new tactics are amazing, not just ultra tac tac.

>> No.26595775

The tacs have a set of Mk8 legs.

>> No.26595791

Considering the mediocrity of the basic tactical marine, a boost was kinda needed.

The tabard might be a part of the chestpiece, no? But.. it's just nice to see they remember the classic design.

>> No.26595794


No they don't. Mk 8 has circular plates on the ankles.

>> No.26595801


Is there any more information on these glorious machines?

>> No.26595803


It could be, but one of the rumor guys said the tabards are all molded onto the legs/body and looking at the Sternguard's right leg, you can see the tabard looks like it comes straight out of his leg.

I like the tabarded look and I used to wish my Sternguard had better tabards than the ones I made for them, but now I kinda wish they were optional.

>> No.26595814


Plastic dual kit based off heavily modified Rhino chassis, both heavy support slots I believe, Hunter is an old Epic model remade and is a single shot AA tank while the Stalker has two independent guns (hence the targeting dish in the center).

>> No.26595818

I'm digging the MK IV bits.

>> No.26595842

Yeah, I guess I can see that. Really tempted to pick up the box and use it for a command squad alongside the new captain.

>> No.26595843


I like the legs but I own a bunch of the FW resin Mk IV and I have to say GW's plastic Mk IV helmets are really ugly. They are longer and more snout like and copy the 2E Mk IV instead of being more triangular and faceplate like version that FW uses.

>> No.26595844

Yeah, I was thinking that statistically this sounds way, way too good to be true. I mean, this near guarantees that every one of your tactical marines will hit something that they shoot at.

I also noticed that most SMs are getting a points drop? How is this not going to be hideously overpowered? Power creep is to be expected with new codexes, but this feels completely out of proportion.

>> No.26595852


Yeah the old command squad is plain as fuck some of them are just tactical marines painted with gold highlights. Even the new tactical marines are better due to the reposing.

The Sternguard captain looks more captain-y than the old captain kit.

>> No.26595857

Oh, so that was a Sternguard head? Great; I was worried that I'd just misinterpreted a picture of the Librarian.

>> No.26595858


It only feels out of proportion because DA and CSM kinda suck and were written too weakly and early in 6th. The new vanilla stuff doesn't seem on the same level as Tau and Eldar and I'd be surprised if they become the new WAAC FotM.

>> No.26595861

Not a single marine standing up.

>> No.26595862

Meant to respond to >>26595791 as well. Maybe I'm just an oldfag but the basic tac has always been something like WS4 BS4 S4 (the basic bolter being S4) 3+ armour, can rapid fire, etc. since 2nd edition at least. That hardly strikes me as "mediocre" given the basic troop statline available to other armies.

>> No.26595874
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>> No.26595877

Models drop points every couple edition so you pay more money for more units. It's been happening since 2nd.

Expect across the board reductions.

>> No.26595880

And that is in the new Tac box.

>> No.26595881

The librarian has a merlin-esque skullcap dealie.

You're not just an oldfag, but remember in 2nd edition space marines were the only people in the game who could rapid fire.

3rd edition onward has really cramped joe marine's style, and them getting an edge again has been a long time coming.

>> No.26595886
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>> No.26595895


I haven't seen any photos of it.

>> No.26595908


Marines are good but they pay a premium for that goodness. What would you rather have one marine with one wound and one gun, or like 3-5 guardsmen/grots with 1 wound and 1 shot each.

>> No.26595920

Right, good point. I suppose statistically this sort of bumps Marines back right up to where they were back in 2nd ed (being the only ones to essentially get a "second shot"). Power creep is a hell of a drug.

>> No.26595937
File: 51 KB, 654x242, tacsquad1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


I've got them as well, no Mk VIII legs that I can see.

>> No.26595941

>infantry all drop in price so you have to buy even more infantry blobs to fill the same number of points

Wow, what a surprise.

>> No.26595946
File: 44 KB, 658x204, tacsquad2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.26595947


Except in 2E marines still sucked thanks to Eldar flying circus. Maybe in 6th marines will continue sucking thanks to Heldrakes and Eldar hovering circus.

>> No.26595949

Ah, okay. Thanks, anonbro.

>> No.26595963


By the time 10th edition rolls around I'll still be using 30-60 infantry except they'll have so much wargear and purity seals on them to increase the point cost it'll look like I'm playing an army made of piles of bling.

>> No.26595965

Jesus Christ do WS get buttfucked. Looks like we'll be running Ravenwing and maybe ally in one of those AA Rhino things. The other new models don't do shit for us anyway.

>> No.26595974


There's no way that's accurate. One guy says White Scars makes army wide Scout, another says White Scars get

>+1 to jink save,auto pass on dangerous terrain,+1 to Hammer of Wrath attacks
>Hit and Run except for termies and both sets of Centurions.

>> No.26595983


Or they might be fucking White Scars to force you to buy supplement for bike army.

>> No.26595998
File: 53 KB, 359x462, Gabriel Angelos, Captain of the Blood Ravens 3rd Company, is not impressed.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>nothing for Bluhd Rehvens

>> No.26596014

By the time 10th rolls around we'll all be playing Epic 40k, except in 28mm scale.

>> No.26596020


Just steal whichever one you want. What kind of Blood Magpies player are you?

>> No.26596031

GW doesn't care about the Magpies. Most of their current target audience won't even know who they are.

>> No.26596040
File: 133 KB, 960x720, 549555_563753363680756_1838670024_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Shame terminators can't just eat all the shots like they could in the old days. I'll probably retire my unit and shove in another ten tacticals to get the even half-company.

>> No.26596048


>> No.26596049

Remember, the chapter tactics replacements are't free just for painting your army a certain way. They're upgrades you put on HQs for army-wide effect, with an associated point cost.

>> No.26596061

That's a really slick table, just saying.

>> No.26596074
File: 873 KB, 510x546, 1361841992019.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Blood Ravens gain a Chapter Tactic Titled: Accept the Generous Gift No Matter the Cost
>Any slain troops of the opponent are left on the exact spot where they were "killed"
>During the shooting phase any Troops controlled by the player may choose to use the weaponry of slain enemy troops withing a 6" radius of the selected unit at their own BS

>> No.26596076

I myself kind of miss the old overwatch. It slowed things down hugely but it did really add quite the firefight feel.

>> No.26596088

Meeplemart, Toronto. Really nice shop, next time I head up I'll be playing infinity.

>> No.26596092


dark apostle only has 2 wounds

>> No.26596115

Oh my god I actually wish this rule was legit.
>Codex: Salvar Chem Troopers special rule: Scavenged Barrage or whatever at like BS2 because of new and unwieldy weapons.

>> No.26596119

>dark apostle
>in an army with Kharn, Abaddon, Daemon Prince

>> No.26596126

Sternguard being stern.
>mfw his gaze along would shatter xenos and daemons alone for being heresy.

>> No.26596132

Lysander was bullshit cheap, anyone who says otherwise is full of shit.

>> No.26596159

Rerolling misses are not as broke on tacticals as twin-linked, since they can't re-roll templates, but it's still godly for plasma guns and stuff.

For non-tacs, you re-roll 1s so you only miss on 2, making you basically have better odds than 2+ to hit.

>> No.26596171


Cost more than a Heldrake.

>> No.26596195

Argh - one point more than CSM with all than AtKNF, Combat squads and new chapter tactic goodies? Fuck you, GW, i want -2..5 pts on everything Chaos except fucking Helldrakes.

>> No.26596207

That's not saying much.

>> No.26596221


Khârn is playable, rather good even... Daemon Princes and Failbaddon are horribly overpriced for what they bring to the table. The real trick is:

>Dark Apostle/Warpsmith
>In an army were generic Lord/Sorcerer are cheaper and efficienter.

>> No.26596225


Protip: Everything in the CSM book is overcosted except the Baledrake.

>> No.26596236


Would you go as far as to say they were...the efficientest?

>> No.26596237

Heldrake ?
Cost more than a Vendetta.

>> No.26596244

>[citation needed]

>> No.26596245


Yeah why do some books get crazy beatstick HQs for so cheap like Necrons.

>> No.26596252


Vendettas cost more than Hyperios Defense Launcher.

>> No.26596259

Oh, and potato armour is basically the way to give corpsefucer obliterators/mutilators, except better (S/T5)

>> No.26596275

That's like, the earliest fucking thing we heard about the chapter tactics this edition: that you didn't need special characters, you could get them as upgrades on normal generic HQs, so you don't need special snowflakes just to crunch up a certain chapter.

>> No.26596288


Huh. GW got something right.

If it's true.

>> No.26596302

fuck that i'm not gonna use those fuckers instead of muh termies. they look way better

>> No.26596308

It kills me thad DA couldn't do it - after all there are deathwing and ravenwing commanders in their successor chapters

>> No.26596322

The dark apostle is one of the biggest jokes in the codex anyway, together with warptalons and mutilators. Its a big FUCK YOU sign to any Word Bearers player or those that had any hope chaos would be relevant in the chaos space marine codex.

A leadership bubble for cultists and rerolls on mutation rolls (that rarely happen), nigga pls.

>> No.26596351

ANd he cannont do magic despite not being a psyker, like dark apostles do in Fluff

>> No.26596356

The key thing here is that these don't have an INV.

The assault version will be garbage and the shooty version will be limited to lascannon/ml platforms camping n cover.

>> No.26596413

>The assault version will be garbage
Go tell Orks their meganobs are garbage.

>> No.26596433


Meganobz are kinda garbage unless you're skewing them in a Deffwing list. Otherwise regular Nobz are strictly better thanks to the availability of FNP and invulnerable saves.

>> No.26596446

>Go tell Orks their meganobs are garbage.
They are.
unless you take grotsnik the bike nobs and regular nobs are far,far better.

>> No.26596466

What about the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics?

>> No.26596483

see >>26595527

>> No.26596511

because Ward/Cruddace

>> No.26596522

>no further new pictures
Dayum. Is it me, or did this leak come way too early? There's a couple of weeks to go now until GW officially admits that these models exist...

>> No.26596523

>Dark Apostles

What is a Sorcerer?

>> No.26596536

>Black Templars chapter tactics unknown so far


Rending and re-rolls in challenges
some other USR I can't remember

>> No.26596567


>- Black Templars have Chapter Tactics options instead of Vows. The Emperor's Champion is an HQ choice for them only and chooses from either (reroll failed to-hits plus rending in challenges), or (gain Adamantium Will plus Crusader). No Librarians allowed.

>> No.26596577

adamntium will
but these are the vows you can take with the chapter champion, not their chapter tactics

>> No.26596578

2+ = 5x16.6% = 83,3%
3+ rr1 = 4x16,6 + (16,6 x 0,66) % = 77,5%

2+ is still better.

>> No.26596638

The helmet in the pic is modified for zero-atmosphere battles, accorting to index astartes: Relictors.

>> No.26596660

>What is a Sorcerer?
Magic specialist. Fluff wise Dark Apostle is an all-rounder. He can kill shit in close combat, albaeit is not as skilled as chos lord, he can invoke the power of gods to summon daemons and shoot mind bullets, albeit not as good as sorcerer, and he can lead lesser men. Under current rules he is limited only ti the last role.

>> No.26596668

So a vanguard would be 22 pts a piece with jump packs?

>> No.26596690


Are you sure that's how you calculate the reroll?

>> No.26596705

yeah i'm a big word bearer fan too, was looking forward to start an army for a long time now (with an apostole) and this is what i get. i hope we will at least get a supplement

>> No.26596729

>a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.

This seems... rather great. Why take anything but tacticals and some cheap HQ?

>> No.26596743

Ah yes. Thanks.

>> No.26596806

Tacticals aren't really the best choice against vehicles or fliers. You need some spices to get the most of the meat and potatoes.

>> No.26596812

100/6=16.6% chance of missing on 2+
100/3/2x.33=22.2% chance of missing on rerolling ones on 3+

>> No.26596831

*100/3/2= 16.6+(16.6x.33)

>> No.26596845

Okay, I just add some devastators with flakk missiles.

>> No.26596868

I thought they were just evil Chaplains, and Chaplains aren't psykers.

>> No.26596882

faith not sorcery.

>> No.26596894

Sorcerer isnt necessarily a (born) psyker. You can get spells/psychic powers from books, items, daemon pacts and the like in DH (Radical Handbook certainly has examples of that (as well as flash drive machine spirit virus, lol)), while not being a psyker.
To provide DnD paralels, a (born) Psyker would be a sorcerer class, while Chaos Sorcerer would be a wizard class.
Though psyker powers can manifest at any point in life, as far as I know, as those are evolutionary boons of human race in 40k.

>> No.26596900

You can just use logic to determine which is better.

Hitting on 2+ means you will only miss on a 1, which is 1 out of 6.

Hitting on 3+ with rerolls of 1, means you will miss on 1 out of 6 (you miss on 2, end of story) and the reroll of the 1 will never be as high as 100% hit like it is in the first scenario where you would auto-hit on 5/6.

>> No.26596908


Why does that gun look like someone home-converted it from an Orca engine?

>> No.26596916

>I thought they were just evil Chaplains
Well, they are both warrior preachers, but the gods Dark Apostle invoke actually answer the prayers, unlike some mummified asshole whis spend all his days being strapped to golden toiled and eating psykers. Oh, and unlike Chaplains, Apostles are usually warband leaders, with Chaos Lord (aka Coryphai) being their first lieutenants, limited to leading the troops.

>> No.26596937
File: 16 KB, 221x189, SMhunter.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

whats its based of pleb.

fuck i wish there were people that played epic in my area

>> No.26596950


Orca engines are fucking square you faggot.

>> No.26596951

>unlike some mummified asshole whis spend all his days being strapped to golden toiled and eating psykers.
To be fair, he grants those, but only to ladies.

>> No.26596957

Assuming fair dice, one Marine can be worth a lot of guardsmen in terms of soaking hits. Against BS3 S3, a Marine only goes down 5.5% of the time or so (3/6 x 2/6 x 2/6 = 12/216). An Imperial Guardsman goes down 21% of the time, assuming a 6+ save (3/6 x 3/6 x 5/6 = 45/216).

Of course, this is precisely why the meta is so heavily skewed towards S4+ that deny 3+ armour saves; Marines never go down otherwise.

>> No.26596968


The Emperor is protecting every human in existence from the powers of chaos, just saying.

>> No.26596983

>n Imperial Guardsman goes down 21% of the time
Assuming the Guarsman is out of cover. Which actually happens only when his Chimera get blown in the open.

>> No.26596985

Just like this rock is protecting me from Giant land camels.

>> No.26596987

Even the re-rolling ones on everyone else is really good.

It makes UM basically strictly better than IF.

>> No.26596990


The back end of the engine you fucking cum dumpster. It looks like someone cut one of the engines in half, glued the back half of it onto a turret and glued a fucking barrel to the end of it.

>> No.26596999

>The Emperor is protecting every human in existence from the powers of chaos
Well, considering, how many people are turning to chaos, he failed his only job.

>> No.26597000


You laugh now but one day you will wake up and you won't be able to find your rock, and giant land camels will be knocking down your door.

>> No.26597002

>Of course, this is precisely why the meta is so heavily skewed towards S4+ that deny 3+ armour saves; Marines never go down otherwise.

fuck the meta. a 3+ used to mean something. But no the last 2 editions have all been about giving everyone tailor made marine killing tools

>> No.26597009

>assuming a 6+ save

>> No.26597016


Doesn't look anything like it unless you think Tau have a monopoly on basic geometric shapes. It's not even a rounded box it's a fucking angles everywhere as is typical of Imperium tech.

>> No.26597021


Stop the presses, boxes form the basis of not only engines but weapon housings! Bolters are just fucking mini orca engines!

>> No.26597023

Fuck space marines, fuck GW

>> No.26597027

>>assuming a 6+ save
Wait... Since when Flak armour is 6+?

>> No.26597036

>better Chaplins
they'd have to take off the hat

>> No.26597048

Not really. They make Plasma pay through the nose (compare with Heavy Bolters and Autocannon), Power Weapons are nerfed so two are functionally worse against 3+ than before, and the one that is the same can't cut through 2+ any more.

The difference is that cover is far more common, so where 4+ and 5+ models didn't get a save before, they now do.

The only ones who got a load more armour busting were Eldar, and Baledrakes who kill anyone not in a metal box or TDA on a 2+ (who are pretty overpowered anyway).

Tau rely more on volume of fire, which doesn't target 3+ explicitly.

In fact, the last few editions have been moving towards more volume of firepower to take down 3+ now.

>> No.26597055

Back in 2e Guard used to get 6+ flak jackets. I apologize for my oldfagness. With a 5+ save, a Guardsman is vaped by a flashlight 16.7% of the time (3/6 x 3/6 x 4/6 = 36/216).

I neglected to add this in my comments about the meta but yes, the shift towards vehicles is probably due to this.

>> No.26597056

That's generous. Guard often get no save as AP5 is pretty likely on most basic weapons.

>> No.26597064

Actually, the prevalence of good Ion weaponry (Hammerheads, Riptides, Flyers) and improvementst to (gasp) Vespids mean Tau have had buffs at Marine killing. Not as much as people think, it is still mostly volume,

>> No.26597079

Er, wait a second, flak jackets were always 5+. Must be getting the old armour modifier system mixed up in my head.

Anyway, calculating probability of all these isn't that difficulty. Just figure out which dice results mean "dead", express that in a fraction, and multiply all the rolls together.

>> No.26597084

Yeah, with no armour save the chances of a Guardsman getting fragged is about 25% (9/36).

>> No.26597099


Nah when he fails all existence will be eaten by chaos killing everything, check the daemon codex and the 5th and 6th edition rulebook.

>> No.26597106

>Guard often get no save as AP5 is pretty likely on most basic weapons
Guard <strike>often</strike> ALWAYS get their cover sves. Usually 4+ Often 3+/2+ with Incoming order.

>> No.26597129


Fact of the matter remains that while every non-MEQ book is being given tools to handle MEQ, MEQ is handed nothing other than expensive armor saves.

>> No.26597132

>Nah when he fails all existence will be eaten by chaos killing everything, check the daemon codex and the 5th and 6th edition rulebook
Codex are written from the faction perspective. Sure, corpsefuckers do beleive Emprah is the only thing that protects them from Chaos, but then why does countless xeno races and free human worlds outside Astronomican light even exist?

>> No.26597135

I think a big problem is that Strength and AP tend (and to some extent range) tend to improve together. So a weapon gets exponentially more killy.

Having weapons that have excellent AP but low S, or excellent S and low AP might be a good way to diversify the armouries of various factions while adding interesting tactics into the mix.

>> No.26597144

Anyone know how Techmarines work now?
Are they still Elites choices, or can you take one per other HQ choice you take (other than other techmarines and command squads)?

>> No.26597147

>free human worlds outside Astronomican light

Nope. Of course Tyranids and Orks and Necrons don't need the Emperor to stave off Chaos.

>> No.26597150

Those anty-MEQ units are hideously unflexible and aren't cost-effeective against anything but MEQ's in the open.

>> No.26597151

This is kind of the point. Cover saves are much more common now, though the normal value is 5+ (4+ with buffs, Orders are basically better psychic powers at the moment and need a nerf though).

>> No.26597153

Ideally, the solution to armies abusing cover would then be artillery/template weapons, since models often have to bunch up to be in cover.

>> No.26597170

>a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.
>Tactical marines re-roll ALL shooting failed to hits
That is the single most broken thing I have ever heard of in my entire life. All of their weapons are effectively twin-linked.

>> No.26597177


The rulebooks are not though, if the emperor fails then every human will become a gateway for chaotic invasions which will lead to chaos consuming existence . That is the lore for this fictional universe you and I cannot change it.

>> No.26597183

But Marine players say Whirlwinds suck, even with C:DA points costs (65 points). (even though it can kill a significant number of pathfinders a turn with no save whatsoever, from out of LOS)

>> No.26597193

Read about the Eastern Fringe - therere are a lot of non-imperial and non-chaos worlds outside the Astronomican light, and most of them are pretty nice places to live comparing to the hellholes of Imperiulm hiveworlds

>> No.26597210

I imagine this is likely due to the inherent human negativity bias - you're more likely to remember all the times the scatter dice went against you. Plus, planning your shots to take advantage of possible scatters takes some practice.

>> No.26597231

Also, recalling that this is 40k, the other option is simply to charge the foe cowering behind cover and rip and tear in CC, where cover doesn't apply. But there's generally a lot of practical obstacles to this.

>> No.26597239

And BTW whyt the hell Chaos Gods even want to destroy the Imperium? I mean, they feast on Rage, Ambitions, Despair and Lust, and the thoughrs of Imperial citizens just bristle with those emotions. Why kill the goose laying the golden eggs?

>> No.26597241


Yeah but one big problem with Meganobs is that they insta-die to Str8, or in other words, every power fist not wielded by a Guardsman. Centurions will only suffer the same fate to Str 10 attacks, which admittedly does rule out attacking MCs unless they have low init.

Actually do we know if Centurions have unwieldy weapons?

>> No.26597262


>Worth using

Not even once.

>> No.26597271

Vespids aren't pyrovores.

>> No.26597272


Where are the good examples from? There was some fluff about two human populated planets on the fringe when the macharius crusade was being fluffed out but those places were pretty fucked up as well.

>> No.26597276

They don't really want humanity gone, just the structures of the Imperium, and given the Great Game, that's not even a priority.

>> No.26597310

Pretty much. Chaos, that is, the Dark Gods, don't really give two shits about the Imperium. Their mortal servants, however, especially the Chaos Marines, are the ones with the vendetta against the Emperor.

For the Dark Gods the Imperium is just a large pool of potential servants and something to watch their current servants play with.

>> No.26597324


To expand their playground, a lot of the new chaos fluff has been based around them wanting to destroy physical existence.

They can still fight each other and continue the great game once they destroy it after all.

>> No.26597356

>They can still fight each other and continue the great game once they destroy it after all.
WTF? I sought they are reflections of mortal emotions, and without mortal to fuel them they'd just starve and die.

>> No.26597371


>-Command Squads may take bikes, and a bike-equipped Commander makes a SM Biker unit troops


>- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops

Am I reading things wrong, or does that make the White Scars chapter tactics rather redundant?

>> No.26597383

S9 on initiative. Few attacks though (3 including bonus for 2CCW, maybe only 2 as they may not be veterans so 1+1 for 2 CCW).

>> No.26597404


AP? Str9 is perfectly fine (equal to Meganobz as a matter of fact)

>> No.26597407

Rerolling ones for everything is what makes Tactical broken. It's basicaly half-twinlinked for everyone and safer gets hot guns to boot. Tactical marines rerolling every fail is just icing the cake.

>> No.26597429

>>-Command Squads may take bikes, and a bike-equipped Commander makes a SM Biker unit troops
This means both WS and any other chapter commander.

>- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops
Maybe -any- bike squad, not just the SM bike squad..

>> No.26597441

They're slow and purposeful, which for CC units means they're shit.

>> No.26597452

That sword arm is gonna be extremely useful for modelling

>> No.26597458

so? self destruction is an integral part of chaos, why should the embodiments of it behave any different?

>> No.26597477


Inability to run means nothing if you've got a transport to get them there. Can you drop pod these guys?

>> No.26597487

I thought the Chaos Gods wanted anything but self-destruction (except for Malal).

>> No.26597491

They also cannot sweep their opponent.

>> No.26597502

They've very bulky USR and no deep strike. And the models are shit.

>> No.26597504

They are Very Bulky so probably no Drop Pod. They can' deep-strike on their own and taking a LR to make something work was never a good idea.

>> No.26597507


Yeah I'm just used to playing Orks. I think in my six years of playing I've managed to sweeping advance twice.

>> No.26597521


Yes they are created by emotions but it would seem they can sustain themselves/even thrive without the physical world or maybe they just want to destroy everything to conclude their game, what actually happen will never be revealed as this is the new 40k bad end with the Emperor and the imperium holding it back.

>> No.26597812

Their behavior is described as illogical and nigh obsessive, i.e. T´zeentch is weaving infinitely complex plans for often very little gain(if at all), Slaanesh is pure hedonism, Khorne doesn´t care if his greatest champions all fall, if they bled good...
They behave like they don´t care if all goes to hell, as long as it goes via their chosen MO.
All the great powers are just extremes of chaotic features, but all of them have each others "abilities" to a certain degree: slaaneshi would never be able to wallow in ecstasy if they didn´t do a little scheming, khornates wouldn´t be able to get to a worthwhile opponent if they weren´t at least a little patient, tzeentchecks were pretty easy targets if they didn´t lift at least a bit... etc, and so it is with chaotic self harm, all have it, but malal(who?) is the embodiment(or not).

At least thats my take on the situation.

>> No.26597843

>tzeentchecks were pretty easy targets if they didn´t lift at least a bit
Sick gains require a sick training plan

>> No.26597863

>Tzeentch 'mirin his own rocking bod
>"Just as planned!"

>> No.26597887

Originally yeah, but then BL decided they should all have magic powers or whatever because they couldn't just use sorcerers instead.

>> No.26598430

I'm pretty sure just about any Chaos worshiper who has served long enough is capable of using magic in one form or another. Those unholy auras and shit ain't cutting edge technology, that's for sure.

>> No.26598597

Does anyone know if these are two separage boxes, or just one box?

>> No.26598604

Pretty sure it's one box.

>> No.26598651

since 200 points is unreasonably cheap for a captain in terminator armor, who just happened to have an extra wound right? Now I hes almost the same as the damn sternguard squad I put him with, and that is whats full of shit.

>> No.26598703

>Eternal Warrior
>Motherfucking FIST OF DORN
>Storm Shield
>Bolter Drill
Lysander gets a tad more than just +1W.

>> No.26598845

is pedr kantor still in? any rules fo thr crimson fister? also why isnt fencing a special olympics sport?

>> No.26598867

Here is the link to the Space Marine 6ed compilation. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278011-new-codex-space-marines-rumor/page-68#entry3420390

>> No.26599102

yeah well now bolter drill has been taken away, since sternguard cant use it. and so far ive seen nothing about the IF getting stubborn. Lysander this edition? maybe he couldve used a prince increase. But after taking away bolter drill and stubborn, 200 points is more than reasonable.

>> No.26599137

That canon is so delightfully phallic. I'm going to buy several.

>> No.26599138
File: 125 KB, 387x431, rulebook-flamers.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Get to re-roll any failed Armor Saves from flame based weapons. (Flamers, Meltas, etc, as per page 56 of the Rulebook)
>Their flame weapons (Flamers, Meltas, etc, as per page 56 of the Rulebook) get to re-roll any failed To-Wound rolls or Armor Penetration rolls that fail to cause a Penetrating or Glancing Hit.

Where the fuck are meltas on this list? Meltas are their own list on a whole different page.

>> No.26599143

Fucking hell. Why do fucking space marines get everything? Biggest Release, Biggest Codex, Acutal army customization, is there anything they won't give them?

For fuck's sake I pay 100 points for a Farseer that can at most twinlink two squads and a fucking Space Marine player gets his entire army twinlinked at all times with no chance of failure or range limitations? This codex is already broken as hell and it ain't even out yet.

>> No.26599157

>Why do fucking space marines get everything?

Popularity. More sales.

>> No.26599174

Because marinefags have to have everything.

>> No.26599180

Worry not, anon. Everything seems horribly OP at first. But with grit and steel, we shall find their weaknesses and build an appropriate list to destroy it.

>> No.26599186


Except that they can't have terminator as troops.

>> No.26599189

>-Scouts drop 2 points, can take LS Storm as a dedicated transport.
Thank fuck.

>- Raven Guard have Stealth, may use jump packs in movement AND assault phase.
>- Imperial Fists reroll '1s' to hit with standard bolters (Bolter Drill). Devatators/Centurions have Tank Hunters and +1 on the building damage table.

I was considering painting some of my marines as Raven Guard instead of Imperial Fists anyway but now I'm definitely going to go IF with RG allies.

>> No.26599193

Captains already cost 100 base. That upgrade better cost like 3x the cost of a divination psyker because that's fucking ridiculously powerful. Farseers are 100 points for 2 units with range limits and chance of failure, Tz Heralds are 45 for 1 unit same issues with farseer, I think rune priests are like 70 or some shit.
So getting that armywide buff is probably ~200 points or more depending on if it goes away if the IC is gone. Probably not going to be seeing that in a normal game unless it's themed.

>> No.26599217

Ultramarines apparently get that shit FOR FREE.

Actually, since tac marines are 14pts now, they get that ability for a points REDUCTION.

>> No.26599220

>they can't have terminator as troops

>> No.26599253

Tell that to the Heldrake.

>> No.26599255

Not vanilla, all of them.

Some rumours say that traits are NOT free.

>> No.26599283

So you're saying that even though 3 Marine armies get Troop terminators, it doesn't count as Marine armies getting terminator Troops, because vanilla Marines don't get them?

How many Eldar codexes give you, say, Fire Dragon Troops?

>> No.26599308

The AA tanks don't have interceptor.

>> No.26599322

Sisters are 12 points base.

>> No.26599333

No, I'm saying that Vanilla is the topic of the thread, that people in the thread are talking about Vanilla and that all those non-vanilla marines are beside the point entirely.

>> No.26599335

And they are overpriced.

>> No.26599342

So, with Skyfire-only weapons, they'll be able to shoot everything only on 6's, and shoot flyers on 3+, but only in their own turn (ie AFTER that heldrake burn the fuck out of my marines)? Well, I'm staying with ADL and Quad gun

>> No.26599365

So do Ultras pick per battle? That's fucking insane. Facing a flyer/assault army? Devastator. Facing mech/horde? Tactical. Feeling retarded? Assault. I mean, good grief. This could be so broken - they'll be better at Overwatch/flyer killing than Tau or everything will basically be TL.

>> No.26599371

But if you were to want Marine terminators as Troops, you can have it. Not with this codex, but with any number of other Marine codexes. It's like someone saying, "Yeah, well Tau don't get Troop battlesuits." Codex: Tau Empire might not, but the Farsight supplement does get them, and the difference between the two is minimal.

>> No.26599390

>Facing a flyer/assault army? Devastator. Facing mech/horde? Tactical. Feeling retarded? Assault.

But your list doesn't change. So if you pick Dev and have no Devastators then you're fucked.

>> No.26599391

Allies rules say that they must come from a different codex but I hope they change this.

>> No.26599400

>not running a full company.
get out of here, pleb.

>> No.26599408

The Eldar codex is incredibly restrictive and only lets you make a single army customization choice- that of having troop wraithguard. It offers 0 support for Mymeara, Iybraesil, Il-Kaithe, Altansar, Lugganath, biel-tan, saim-hann, or Ulthwe armies and offers its minimal support of Alaitoc in the same manner as the Space Marines 5E book which people fucking hated and glorious space marines of course get something 50 times better that supports every single imaginable legion that doesn't already get its own fucking codex.

>> No.26599416

Why wouldn't you always run them though? If you take tactical, they're rerolling 1's to hit. If you take devastator, they're relentless. It's win-win.

>> No.26599418

I would expect any sensible guy to write it down on the list, like psychic disciplines.

Given that they ruled the magnificent "Farsight Enclave is totally not Tau codex, feel free to ally the two together as Battle Brothers", you would hust have to wait for a supplement.

>> No.26599447

jesus christ I need better shots of that chaplain; what are on his shoulders? what does his backpack look like?

That fucking stock photo they have makes it look like hes toppling over.

>> No.26599467

Yeah, but that's not the same as in-codex options. You give up something for that shit.

Note that I'm not advocating Troop Termies for vanilla. DA and GK are the only ones using massed Terminator and it should stay that way. Want to play Smurf 1st company? Play fucking Apocalypse.

>> No.26599507

Yeah, but all choices have their ups and downs. Want better flamers? Well, then you can't have 6+ FNP or bolter drills, etc. Choosing Troop terminators costs you the options of the vanilla codex while opening a whole new set of options.

Never even wanted Troop terminators, but where's my fucking terminator command squad?

>> No.26599525

Unless it's the DA book, then it costs you ever getting anything good ever.

>> No.26599542

Gods, I swear. All of the Chapter Tactics are so broken. If they were free the captain would have to cost at least 350 points to be even slightly fun for another player.

Also you could probably just take 2 captains and get both (or one/the other on a squad by squad basis).

>> No.26599554
File: 64 KB, 1280x768, SpaceMarine 2011-09-06 00-28-48-74.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>It makes UM basically strictly better than IF.

As it should be.

>> No.26599564
File: 64 KB, 400x398, 1366858347307.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>orders are better psychic powers and need a nerf
>Officer must have LoS to unit
>Officer must have LoS to units target
>12" - 6" Order range
>Have to pass a lower than average Ld test to succeed
>Heavy Weapon Teams Ld7
>Double 6 means no more orders for the remainder of the turn

It's the army gimmick. It doesn't need buffing, but it certainly doesn't need a nerf, as it's not some autowin no-brainer army gimmick that you can just do with no downside, like Battle-Focus or Supporting Fire.

It's in a good place but requires you to think about how you move, what has LoS to who and which units to order first.

>> No.26599566

Forgetting about the huge release the Tau just had, I see.

>> No.26599579
File: 87 KB, 400x600, i wont stand.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

get the hell out.

>> No.26599583

But you get Troop terminators, so you not?

You think no player in any other army wouldn't mind a little nerf to be able to field the shit they want over some generic list the designers thought up? I know some dudes who'd field Troop stormtroopers if only Codex: IG would let them, like it used to. 16pts. per model and all.

>> No.26599618

Yes, by wasting a HQ choice on the most useless special character ever devised whose sole purpose is to be used to get Terminator troops.

The Army book thats DESIGNED to have troop bikers and troop terminators does it worse and has less options for it that any other group.

I honestly feel I'd be better painting my DA black and make them BT, they already stole half of the aesthetic.

>> No.26599626

I'm a bit suprised they didn't add a terminator option for Sternguard and Vanguard.

My dreams of playing Thaddeus and Tarkus from DoW II will just have to be on hold.

>> No.26599635

Codex: IG had plenty of "don't know if this is a little too good, so lets make it nigh useless". Look at T5 ogryns and AP3 stormtroopers. Also, you forgot to mention that vox-casters only let you re-roll the test, not extend the range or anything.

>> No.26599657

>Marneus Calgar is pricier
He can also take 3 warlord traits. Even if he has to roll for them (I won't be surprised if it is just "choose 3 warlord traits") that is still pretty good.

>> No.26599659

>a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.
Dear god Terminators that are ultramarines are going to be unkillable without massed AP2. As is that's retardedly hard to kill anything in power armor with

>> No.26599660

Are you actually surprised they didn't give Vanguard, a unit that can charge off deep strike, Terminator options? Really?

>> No.26599679

They can already take TH/SS

>> No.26599683

So not only should Marines get all the option, they should also be the best options? Spoken like a true marinefag.

>> No.26599688

So, do we all agree? Cruddace is the shittiest of all 40k writers?

>> No.26599689

>6th Edition C:SM codex
>Not using Salamanders with jump packs and stealth
>Crashing into each other and exploding because they have no clue how to use them
>No one can see them coming
Honestly twin-linked meltas is a pretty shitty chapter tactics.

>> No.26599695

I think that's just ones on to-hit, or at least I pray it is....

>> No.26599701

Re-roll ones TO HIT.

>> No.26599704

yeah the vox casters are kinda a pain in the ass like that. the re-roll is nice but hell I would have liked increased range or something.

>> No.26599710

>M Calgar picks 3 warlord traits
Well fuck Eldar, Our super special must be warlord guy gets to roll d3 instead of 1 trait and his have to all be on eldar and the fucker costs as much as a land raider and doesn't output half the damage calgar does in addition to the huge buffs calgar also puts out armywide.

>> No.26599712

Or how about the Codex that is not just every marine codex gets to specialize correctly in the specialization it's supposed to be.

Let's make Tau really SHIT at shooting, for no reason at all.

Or make Dark Eldar weapons non poisoned, for shits and giggles.

>> No.26599733

are we sure it's not something like picks three traits and then discards two?

Also, the fucker will be like 400 points.

>> No.26599742

No way. Whirlwinds are one of the only things that consistently make their points back in my experience. I always run two. Great for fucking over Pathfinders (spess fairy and blueberry variants), GEQ's of all kinds hate it. And it's hilarious to wreck a Battlewagon then drop a Whirlwind template over the bunched up Boyz.

>> No.26599747

And? That still only gives them a 3+ save against most attacks. TDA would halve the amount of casualties they would normally take. They're already looking pretty good as it is, letting them get 2+ 3++ would break them.

Are you serious? No chapter outside of GK and DA actually uses mass terminators as troops in the fluff. Not even IF, they're still very limited. This codex is already looking fantastic, it doesn't need terminator spam to complete that.

>> No.26599781

Oh don't get me wrong, I am not saying Vanilla marines need to get Terminators.

I'm just saying the DA Codex is shit and fielding mass terminators was more of an afterthought than a thought about the book itself.

>> No.26599788
File: 58 KB, 248x244, 1336270678989.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


I wish vox-casters either increased the order radius a bit, or took away the officer needing LoS to that unit. He should still need LoS to the units target, to tell them what to shoot at, but seriously, they're supposed to be goddamn long-range radios.

>> No.26599793

Rather doubtful it'd break them since they'd get one shot at charging before they're just another squad of assault terminators.

>> No.26599800

I think it means to hit, not all ones, hence the unless they are tactical marines.

>> No.26599802

+1 anon. The DA codex can still do Deathwing and it still can play well. You just need luck (every army does) and a good idea of where to deep strike.

>> No.26599826

You mean the Codex Astartes? Because apart from small variations, BA and DA are codex as fuck. Codex: DA was Codex: SM with special characters to give Troop terminators and Troop bikers until 6e, when they finally got their metric shit ton of special units and stuff to warrant having a codex of their own.

You got more variation between Eldar craftworlds and IG regiments than between SM chapters. And I bet every marinefag crying after their special snowflake chapter rules are also sick and tired of CSM players wanting legion rules and wish those people would just shut the fuck up and enjoy what they got.

>> No.26599831

They do, sternguard are tactical terminators, vanguard are assault terminators. Most chapters don't use terminators all the time, they are used as they are needed. If you are a veteran and you need to explore a space hulk you wear terminator armour, if you need to quickly overwhelm an enemy HQ and prevent anyone from escaping you wear power armour and a jump pack.

>> No.26599835

Orders do not need buffs. Your Orders are literally just psychic abilities that people can't take Deny the Witch attempts against.

>> No.26599846

>-Chaplains are HQ , W:2, A:2 and grant Zealot

Unless there's a point reduction they're still not worth it. You had two things to do with this release GW. Two things! At least chapter traits are in in some form...

>> No.26599851

>You got more variation between Eldar craftworlds and IG regiments than between SM chapters.


>> No.26599876

Guard player here, just shut up about your special codex. I play Guard, I like the diversity, but do I wish that we had 8 difference codexes? No, the IG doesn't work like that, they don't send a single regiment, wipe their hands, and leave, a war involves dozens or hundreds of different IG regiments working together, which is best implemented in a single codex with doctrines.

>> No.26599878

>Whines about Variation between eldar craftworlds and IG regiments.

And you have your vanilla lists able to mould around that shit

Want to be Windriders? Fucking Jetbike troops.

I need to buy a waste of points special character to play Deathwing. And it's a terrible design choice.

Windriders? Catachan elite army? Speed Freeks or Deathskulls? They're ten times more viable than Deathwing BECAUSE THEY WERE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT.

Vetrock is worse than Ward, he writes armies he likes into being totally broken, and ones he does not like he makes bland and terrible.

>> No.26599881

Yeah, DA's book was a colossal disappointment. Just felt like C:SM 1.5.

Are assault terminators bad in combat now? 99% of the complaints vs Terminators are they don't live to see combat. If they can enter assault from Deep Strike, what army reasonably beats them?

Unfortunately I haven't found Deathwing to work so great, but my area spams plasma like nobody's business.

>> No.26599892

>Farseer Craftworld
>Aspect Craftworld
>Undead Craftworld
>Gotta go fast Craftworld

How is this "More variation" than the Marines again?

>> No.26599900

Didn't even feel like C:SM 1.5, as obviously, SM are getting tons more fun toes.

>> No.26599905

So they at last made a codex for Night Lords and Iron Warriors! Great.

>> No.26599914

Deathwing is shit, never go full Deathwing.

All units are useless, Especially Deathwing Knights. The Most useless Unit ever invented.

>> No.26599916

Actually the current rules don't support Windriders as they integrate Vypers into their squads of Bikes rather than as seperate units.

>> No.26599921

aye, that'd do it. when tau came out my fucking deathwing cried.

fucking space blueberry communists. it's like fighting the 12 year old camper in COD but worse.

>> No.26599925

>Tactical Marines have no need to get an updated model
>New plastic kit
>CSM still have shitty standard marines who don't match the new aesthetic and no plastic cultist kit
I hope Orks get a massive overhaul/new models. If there is any army that can continually kick ass and piss everyone off, its Orks.

>> No.26599933
File: 95 KB, 599x448, tumblr_mheyxw1QaU1s332cmo1_1280.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I would buy the shit out of a night lords supplement. I'm not even kidding.

>> No.26599946

One slight out of a perfect Codex, for shame.

Let's now look back to the Dark Angels book.

Oh wait, Deathwing Knights being seven balls of useless? Amazing!

>> No.26599949

Tac models are way older than current CSM

>> No.26599957

We dont need it anymore. I'm going full ravenguard rules with my NL. And I find it funny that the best rules for Iron Warriors are Imperial Fists, with Iron Hands in a second place.

>> No.26599976

Current CSM just had a new torso and a few heads recently (In terms of basic SM), but the squating legs are the same as always

>> No.26599978

I was assuming C:SM was the 5e codex and this newest one was 2.0 but yeah. Fuck, from a rules stance, it would be dead easy to incorporate DA into the main codex and have them actually be better. Just give them Chapter Tactics Stubborn + all bolters become salvo 2/4, then let them take Terminators/Bikes as troops. Done, and you lose almost no decent list variation. It's pitiful. That said, I've been an advocate for just making the marines into one mega book for years and publishing the fluff separately as supplements as then you haven't got armies left in the dust for years and they have the option to do crazy things such as, I dunno, make non-basic, non-2x autocannon dreadnaughts actually fucking good for the first time in a decade. Or even something as insane as changing all the rules and points costs at once without needing a huge FAQ every time.

Marinefags wouldn't let it go though, even if they gained more fluff from that change. Can't please em all.

>> No.26599979

>One slight out of a perfect Codex, for shame.
There's many more than that. Chaos and Orks come to mind.

>> No.26599986

Eldar release
>shit warlord powers
>psykers nerfed
>nearly everything increased in point cost
>zero army customization
>useless units remain useless
>one updated plastic set
>one new vehicle
>sculpts that have been outdated for literally decades remain unchanged
>want some actual good options for customization? buy this other book

Marine release
>nearly everything drops in point cost
>incredibly overpowered chapter abilities
>fucktons of armywide customization
>two new vehicles
>new plastic sternguard sets
>new plastic vanguard sets
>new plastic tactical sets
>entirely new heavy support/elite unit

Why do xeno players even bother with this game?

>> No.26599990


I never said they needed a buff. See my previous post >>26599564 where I listed all the reasons why Psychic Powers are better than orders.

Don't get pissy, now.

>> No.26599991

Did you even read what I wrote? I said IG and Eldar got more variation to warrant their own codexes over 90% of the Marine chapters out there. I didn't say "we need more IG/Eldar codexes."

Learn to read.

>Want to be Windriders? Fucking Jetbike troops.

Want BA? Take Assault Marines. Want BT? Take lots of scouts with your tac Marines and Land Raider Crusaders. Want DA? Paint your terminators white and bikers black. Want SW? Yiff.

>> No.26600001

>I need to buy a waste of points special character to play Deathwing
>Catachan elite army don't

Well, technically, it's right. You need to waste your points on THREE special character to have something that looks remotely like catachans.

>> No.26600004

>I don't like Vettock, he writes armies he likes into being totally broken,
[citation needed]
>and ones he does not like he makes bland and terrible.
Pro-Tip for you: Dark Angels have always been bland and terrible. Because they're Jervis' least favorite army (and guess who's lead developer, that all projects a coordinated by).
>2013, and people still think "1 and only 1 person writes the entire codex".

>> No.26600019

Well, rejoice. The new Tacs squat just the same.

>> No.26600020
File: 171 KB, 376x381, 1360919787339.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>MFW Salamanders are going to be the strongest Codex chapter once again

>> No.26600031

Are you shitting me? Eldar are right up there next to Tau and Necrons in the current environment. Do you think anyone else has a ton of options? What about Necrons, with their monobuild for the entirety of 6e. Eldar got a decent update, but the flagship race was always going to get the most stuff in terms of new kits. We don't know what the points costs of any new marine upgrades are either, so just let the dust settle before you let your toupee fall off.

>> No.26600034

I am a huge Marinefag, and I can say for a fact that nobody would give a single shit if it was one big book.

You just have the terrible logistic problems of having one codex about 10 times bigger than the others, and even then with cut content.

I would love to have DA in the SM codex, it means I might actually get some decent rules, but quite frankly, I also don't want to pay $90 for a codex when the Eldar faggot gets all his goodies and more without cut anything.

>> No.26600038

Looks like you misspelt Ultramarines there champ.

>> No.26600039

It's funny that the only variation on offer in the CSM codex is between the chaos gods rather than the different legions. You'd think after the Horus Heresy books became so popular they'd want to capitalize on that rather than offering different flavours of scarybad.

>> No.26600041

... Poor guys. So you finally had a new box and its equally retarded? if they update my box I'll expect something like the Dark Vengeance's kind of chaos mahreens...

>> No.26600052

Isn't it glorious?

>> No.26600053

>Forgot Eldar got a total overhall in 5E.

>Forgot Marines got a max total of 3 things in 5E.

>> No.26600062

Or you use vets to play Catachans, use the Catachan models and use the Catachan officer box.

>> No.26600064

And you're surprised, WHY!?

The current dev-team is headed by Jervis. Who any long-time player familiar with GW, knows is a giant fucking Space-Wolf fanboy, and all about the "Imperium Stronk" bullshit.

The devs currently working under him are Ward: Marine/Necron fanboy, and adamant hater of all things Ork/Orc. Cruddace, the fucking-new-guy IG fanboy. Kelly, the Eldar player trying to make concise changes that don't upset the game balance (that everyone fucks up after the fact). And Vettock, who'd rather be working on Fantasy.

>> No.26600065

By marinefags I mean the circlejerking assholes who scream shit like "for the emperor" every game and thinks that it's reasonable for all Xenos to be sidelined constantly. You know, the ones who defended 5e's release schedule. I don't mean people who just like marines, they're just normal players.

>> No.26600076

>same tier as Tau/Necron

My little anon can't be this delusional.

They're mostly middle tier right now.

>> No.26600083

>and all about the "Imperium Stronk" bullshit.
>Currently the three strongest armies are xenos

>> No.26600087

So with this codex is it worth even doing Ravenwing? Or just take a Ravenguard Bike and assault marine army?

>> No.26600092

>Rapetastically Awesome

>Rapetastically Awesome

>Rapetastically Awesome, with Vetock writing 8th edition rules to basically make sure they're broken.

>Orcs and Goblins

>Ogre Kingdoms
>Super Terribland

>> No.26600095

Don't forget their shrines to Ward, their eternal savior, and their asshole ideas that 40k would be a better game if all the non-Imperial "fags" left it.

>> No.26600100

Ulthwe guardians are actual trained soldiers rather than militia and are both better equipped and trained than all other craftworlds'
They also fucking hate chaos and are the most likely to work with the imperium in stomping chaos.
In addition you do also have Ulthwe fielding an abnormally large quantity of seers.

Gotta go Fast- the craftworld is more diverse than White Scars. For one we have a clan system rather than a traditional hierarchy. Yes that means multiple leaders. Vypers are integrated into Bike Squads, Mountains of hornets are used--until betalis III the imperium believed they were Saim-Hann only thats how often others use them.

Iyanden of course is unique in obvious ways.

Biel-Tan hates all non-eldar, is always headed by autarchs, and fields aspect warriors everywhere.

Mean while in marines.
>Codex chapter that likes going fast
>Codex chapter that likes melee
>Codex chapter that likes sieges
>Codex chapter that epitomizes the Codex

Note that They are all codex chapters with minor variations. Craftworlds all have their own way of going to war, their own command structure, and their own force distributions.

The most unique Space marine chapter is Space Wolves and BT because they actually don't follow the codex. Everyone else is Codex+prefers x.

>> No.26600103

>Honestly twin-linked meltas is a pretty shitty chapter tactics.
Not with shitton of drop podded meltas and meltaspeeders.
You just need to specialize if you take that tactic

>> No.26600106

>Forgot Eldar got a total overhall in 5E.

But that's wrong. Most Eldar stuff changed aesthetically in 4E. 5E, IIRC, mostly changed a few vehicles.

And those jetbikes are ancient.

>> No.26600110

Is that any better than the Eldarfaggots like


Who STILL complain about their book despite it being great and Eldar forever being top tier against everyone?

>> No.26600111

Check the recent tournament winners. Taudar are 5 of the top 10 in every single one. Wave serpents are very undercosted and their shit now moves like weaker versions of jetpacks. Yeah, they're really damn good atm.

>> No.26600114

Can't say I've ever had trouble or heard any complaints about getting them into CC to begin with, but then I rarely try and make them foot-slog either.

>> No.26600116

But xenos weren't side lined constantly, they were just updating 3e codexes.

>> No.26600128
File: 200 KB, 500x696, tumblr_mjbfdnauQb1qiodm2o1_500[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

They should bring back some of the Dark Angels Native American look from that one image from 2nd ed. Headdresses, feathers and tribal paint mixed with monk robes.

>> No.26600136

>Xenos players still bearing their 5e cross despite being on top once again

>> No.26600170

>Is that any better than the Eldarfaggots like

Me, the guy who plays Guard, and consistently shits on the new Eldar codex? If they're not fielding Wave Serpents they turn into slush by the third turn.

Oh yeah and assuming makes an ass out of you and Ming etc etc etc.

>> No.26600176

As a marine fag. I think xenos should be higher powered compared to marines: eldar, Tyranids and orks especially. Chaos should be the most OP codex. The imperium is supposed to be scraping by with every battle hard fought. The game should reflect that since they obviously don't want to go balanced and competitive.

>> No.26600179

Urgh. Admittedly, I don't mind Ward too much though, his codices are terribly written but he DID make Necrons relevant and updatable again. Then broke them with 6e flyer rules. Meh. He still gets points in my book for fixing Necrons blandness and making them popular.

Admittedly not but with the amount of Heresy players in my area I encounter the marine ones far more.

Daemons, Orks, Tau and Eldar languished in 5e and DE/Necrons were only updated near the end. On top of that, the best armies were IG mech and marines in boxes because Xeno mech was utter shit. I'd say that's fairly sidelined to be honest.

>> No.26600180

You do know, I hope, that the armies that are upset the most by a new edition change are ALWAYS xenos or non-marine armies? Of course Necrons jacked up... the design team wasn't even considering their transport spam when they made 6th.

Jervis is a fucking Imperial cock-sucking tool. Always has been. He has always exhibited gross amounts of favoritism, even to specific sub-sects of the Imperium (i.e. Dark Angels getting the shaft, chaos always getting shafted since he's been in charge, Space Wolves always being good).

Just because the 3 currently most ridiculous armies are Necrons (due to edition shift imbalancing them), Tau (due to someone's brilliant idea to let the entire army snapfire), and Eldar due to the fact that the only other armies released for 6th so far SUCK BALLS (Daemons, Chaos, DA), means jack of all shit. SM codex is going to be ridiculous. Jervis guarantees it. IG redux will be ridiculous, Jervis guarantees it. And if his preshush spess woofs get redone, Jervis guarantees they'll be so fucking ridiculous, you'll need to buy lube for your bleeding ass.

>> No.26600191

That guy might be retarded but he is correct in saying that Space Marines are getting a way better deal and actual army customization when armies that could actually use it are left by the wayside.

That being said.
Is a fucking retard.

Eldar got 1 new serpent variant - the nightspinner. Space Marines got an entire codex, 2 new vehicles - flyers at that and 2 supplements in the form of BA and GK who also got a mountain of new models.

We didn't even get a fucking codex in 5E.
What are you even smoking

>> No.26600192

And that's not a catachan army. You don't Move Through Cover, you don't Stealth, you don't Infiltrate, you don't WS4. You don't even cost an arm and leg.

It's not Light Infantry, because Codex: Imperial Guard is actually Codex: Cadians and Steel Legion. You'll field Line/Mechanised Infantry and you will like it.

>> No.26600200

Dark Angels are Monkastic and self-chastising instead of haughty and more in your face than other space marines. They also fucking hate the Fallen and are the most likely not to work with the imperium if they can stop Fallen

The White scars are far more diverse than Saim-Hann. For one they have a rigid tribal system rather than a traditional hierarchy, Yes, that means multiple captains. Dreadnaughts are intergral in their chapter, as they are not used and not intergrated into anything. Mountains of Scouts are used - Until the White scars ride over anything they believed they were basically Ravenwing ripoffs.

Salamanders are unique in obvious wayes

Iron hands hate all Non-machine dudes, Is always head by a forgfather and fields techmarines everywhere.

Meanwhile in Eldar

>Eldar who go fast and are red
>Eldar who are Psykers
>Eldar who use Aspect warriors
>Eldar who use Ghost Warriors

Mot they are all Craftworld Eldar with minor variations. Chapters have their own way of going to war, their own command structure and their own force distributions.

The Most Unique Eldar is Dark Eldar and those dinosaur dudes, because they don't follow the craftworld's teachings. Everyone else is Craftworld+prefers x.

>> No.26600213

Yeah, so then nobody ever plays them?

What fun, screw wanting to have fun in a somewhat balanced enviroment, Chaos Daemons should rape everyone.

>> No.26600226

Made me laugh.

>> No.26600229
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>> No.26600234
File: 28 KB, 300x390, 1376139466756.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>Kelly, the Eldar player trying to make concise changes that don't upset the game balance

Why does everyone tongue kelly's anus? I hate that man, he doesn't know how to army gimmick, and he's one of the best writers when it comes to including absolutely useless army units or characters.

Orks, Dark Eldar and Chaos Space Marines have the lamest most unuseable army gimmicks in the game (pain tokens, waaagh, challenge table) especially when compared to everyone elses (hell I'd rather have combat tactics than that stupid god table).

I will dance over the burning remains of the current Ork codex the day that man quits.

>> No.26600243

Wow, you play a Hyperbroken army against a non broken one, good show there champ.

Let me guess, Vets and Vendettas right?

>> No.26600252

Most xeno armies were shit for an entire edition - longer, in some cases. The ones that did see updates saw them only at the very very end of 5E's run. And they weren't slightly worse kinda shit, they were practically unplayable. Orks STILL haven't been updated and Tyranids are absolute fecal slime, while around them Chapter codices have sprung up by the bucketload.

The focus on marines has become a detriment to overall game balance.

>> No.26600255

Ravenwing are very post expensive.

Probably go with white Scars.

>> No.26600261

Hold on, fixing shit for you.

I really hope you're not that delusional to even consider this to be an "8th edition army book". Because it by no means is. It's 7th through and through, and was written in the days when it's popularity would be decided by it's ability to stand up against Daemons, Regenerating Wight VCs, and Dark Elves. It's high concentration of magic items is a 7th edition deal (and will get stripped down considerably), and the only reason it does well in 8th is because it's a "carry-over army", few of which do well at all.

>>Orcs and Goblins
While they are bland, being just about the second book of Fantasy, the book they have now is so far above and beyond the 7th ed pile of trash they received, that it's still considered a vast improvement. Early codices and army-books for an edition always (ALWAYS) suck.

>>Ogre Kingdoms
>>Super Terribland
First Army Failure Syndrome.

>> No.26600280

>Paint tokens let Dark Eldar have a GREAT tarpit unit for next to zero cost in a normally light, nible army.

Orks and Chaos are indeed fucked.

But Orks were entirely fucked over due to Eldar and him literally pasting the eldar design philosophy into them.

>> No.26600290


Krieg nigga. Artillery and massed infantry platoons. Again, assuming, ass, Ming.

>> No.26600306

Well, I won't disagree with you on the way better deal in terms of customisation but the chances of most of it being good are slim to none. On the whole, they aren't getting a huge amount more diverse than before and I'd rather not disparage GW when an army that needs customisation gets it. It's a shame Eldar can't run all its fluff lists, but they're still better off than Orks who get screwed or Necrons who get to spam or lose to monstrous creatures. They're vastly better off than sisters. I thought the Eldar release was pretty good and if they keep this update cycling around, in 4 years they'll get more again. Doesn't excuse it all, but it is more bearable to me.

Ravenwing with banner is decent. White Scars full bike armies have a chance to be unplayable if the rumours are true. Wait for release.

>> No.26600307

They are folding 2 of the marine codexes into one, so that may be part of the reason.

>> No.26600309

>Then broke them with 6e flyer rules

No he didn't. I dislike him, but even I'm not stupid enough to think only he wrote the 6th ed rules. It was a collaborative effort headed by Jervis, and like always was designed first and foremost with Marines in mind. Which is precisely why Necrons have their brief burst of 'overlooked broken shit' in the new edition. Remember Nob Bikers due to Wound Allocation in 5th? Same thing. It was the inevitable "oops" of 6th ed by overlooking the Necrons completely because the dev team was so engrossed with test-playing the rules using Marines and Chaos Marines.

>> No.26600314

>Defending Skaven.

Oh hello, I am Vetock.

I shall make Skaven

>Have really good magic that carries over to 8th edition well

>Have super cheap units that SURPRISINGLY became the best units in the game thats to steadfast, a rule I WROTE!

>Monsters are all awesome because they just don't die unless you have flaming attacks.

>And we have regular cannons now, to utterly destroy any chances of anyone else fielding large monsters.

>> No.26600315

So you could make a white scars successor chapter but then an allied list with Ravenguard

Cheap bikes, Assault marines that can move twice in movement and shooting, infiltrating ones to boot.

>> No.26600317

Krieg, with those broken as shit no retreat rules and the insanely OP heavy artillery? What tribulations you suffer.

>> No.26600318

>imperial guard

Maybe when they first got their current codex, but not now. They have one broken list. Tau are currently the only seriously awesome army.

>> No.26600324


So just another incredibly broken branch of the puzzle of IG.

I guess you didn't use rough riders did you?

>> No.26600332

>Most xeno armies were shit for an entire edition - longer, in some cases.

Same with most Imperial armies. SW, BA, GK all 3e codexes until they got updated in 5e. Same as Necrons and DE.

>> No.26600335

No, Tau are currently MORE Broken than Guard.

Guardsmen never stopped being broken as fuck purely on points costs.

>> No.26600338

Xenos books are always side-lined, and treated as separate "sub-chapters" of the same army. Marines are always guaranteed that they will get their vanilla codex re-written each edition. And are always guaranteed that 1, if not more, sub-factions will get rules either through WD or separate codices. Xenos are treated as one faction, guaranteed that at least 1 will get a codex during an edition, with 1 or possibly more ("if we get around to it") will be updated for the edition.

>> No.26600350

I'm not sure the Krieg rules allow rough riders in a siege force.

>> No.26600354


Daemon Hunters were shit for two editions. Imperial Guard was shit for four editions. Sisters of Battle has never been anything else than shit. You didn't/don't hear them bitch like Eldar or Marines players do.

>> No.26600357

>Xenos are treated as one faction
>Eldar and Tau got Codexes out before SM and Guards.
>DA only got a Codex because it was a 5E codex
>Necrons was a Proto 6E codex.

I'm sorry, but what the fuck are you smoking?

>> No.26600367
File: 25 KB, 216x282, 1343632423353.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>Eldar design philosophy

The exact same point me and my ork playing buddy make when our resident eldar player tells us "it's not that bad".

Goddamn I miss the old codex. Versatile units, mixed weapons, fluffy armouries, mobbing up, and the old waagh. The old Waaagh!

Waaagh! every time you charge, pass a mob test check (roll equal or under the squad size on 2d6) and you double your I for the first turn.

God I miss my Choppa/ PK Warboss.

>> No.26600372

CSM is fine, they have 4 extra troop choices and half of their units has invuls higher than their armour aves. GW was right that chaos players are spoilt for choise, I mean Daemons or marines- who cares, it's all chaos, right?

>> No.26600374

Heavy mortars and such are way too expensive to field.

Not points wise, money wise. Nobody gonna by a lump of resin that size for £20.

>> No.26600375

Oh what terrible lament, the IG faggot cannot take a medicore unit in his stupidly broken Forge World rules for a stupidly broken army.

>> No.26600387

Don't forget how broken Eldar were in 4th ed.

I play Grey Knights, but thanks for trying.

>> No.26600388

>Xenos books are always side-lined

No they are not. They just didn't get as many codexes in 5e because there was such a backlog of 3e armies.

>> No.26600392

>implying that's the same guy as me

You look like a retard right now.

>> No.26600398


I can see you're a butthurt csm players rusing as an Eldar player. The rule-flavored tears of your Heldrakes are delicious.

>> No.26600401





>> No.26600413

It's not heavy mortars that are broken, it's thudd guns (take about 15 years to resolve a single battery of 3) and the Heavy Basilisk stationary guns which are 75 points for effectively 7 T7 wounds. Don't underestimate Krieg players, I've seen someone with 20k points of them - they can and will throw money to make it good.

>> No.26600414

>I think xenos should be higher powered compared to marines: eldar, Tyranids and orks especially. Chaos should be the most OP codex.
As a veteran of the days of 7th edition Fantasy, go fuck yourself.

No fucking army should be "OP" or "most OP". The game should actually be written by people who (gasp) like the game, and want to see it improve. Not fuck-tards having at a playground game of "my guys are moar betterer than yours!" Which is basically what we have now. GW could learn a lot from how other companies are handling their numerous factions for their game systems. Either releasing expansions that affect multiple armies at once, or streamlining the system and books so that you can cram 20 something unique variant lists into one book, or expanding upon all the armies and making subtle balance tweaks in an effort to enhance the game (instead of "shake up the balance").

But alas, GW isn't a game company. It's a publically traded miniature company run by rich faggots who only want to become richer.

>> No.26600416

I wasn't implying you were the same person, forgive me if I was.

Either way.

Imperial Guards players pretend to be the "Common man" yet they are ten times more high and mighty than the Marines and their army was forever ten times more broken.

>> No.26600428

While there are some gross generalizations, he is on the ball as far as the variant craftworlds go. They are all supposed to be drastically unique.

>> No.26600429

>their army was forever ten times more broken
>Forever Broken
Fucking 5E kids.

>> No.26600452

I agree. If you're trying to make a game where 2 people fight and it's not designed to story tell like an RPG, there is no excuse for making one faction better than another in game. It just makes everyone gravitate to the same armies (see: 5e where everyone was SW or IG, 6e where everyone is Necrons, Tau, Eldar).

>> No.26600453

>he didn't play 3E Catachans

Holy shit those guys were balls to the wall if you ambushed right.

>> No.26600460

Not denying that my army is better than the average Marine one right now. I'm well aware that I'm top-middle tier most of the time and upper tier if I really get to brokenizing my army.

Tau are presently the only seriously outstanding army, though. Bring a good list from any mid-tier army and you stand an even chance of shooting muh Krieg to bits.

>> No.26600466

>Why does everyone tongue kelly's anus?
I don't. Kelly is an Eldar fanboy faggot.

He did a masterful job of fucking up the Ork codex in 4th edition, BECAUSE he's an Eldar fanboy faggot. And did the same with Chaos.

The sad part, is as an Ork fan I'm hesitant about the prospect of even having Vettock or Cruddace lead the next revamp, but all I know for certain is Kelly's faggot elf-ass is terrible for the job, and keep Ward the fuck away from it. That fucking cock-stain lost all respect with me in 7th ed Fantasy, and I definitely don't want to see a 7th ed Orc and Goblin army book for 40k.

>> No.26600476

3e was a broken mess of a game system though, let's not pretend otherwise.

I actually agree with this guy, despite speaking against him earlier. Tau are very dominant ATM as they're the only army capable of taking a true TAC list. It helps that they're the only army with non-shit anti flyer shooting.

>> No.26600478

You're guardsmen. Your radios are two plastic cups with a string between them. There's only so much string to go around so the range is small and you need los so that the guy on the other end can read your lips cause the reception is so bad.

>> No.26600494

I'm both pity and somewhat envy the reckless wastefulness of players that can convince themselves into buying all that shit.

>> No.26600496

>Imperial Guard was shit for four editions.
Which is hilarious you think that, because IG were actually fairly balanced in 3.5 when their last codex came out, and stayed fairly balanced and playable into 4th. It wasn't until late 4th, early 5th, that the IG codex started showing it's age.

And the WitchHunter's codex actually WAS good during 3.5. And you DO hear their players bitch just like Eldar or Marine players, just in less numbers.

>> No.26600504
File: 805 KB, 2760x1592, 1287538729520.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Let's face it, they do look better thank Cadians and anyone who's willing to pay the extra bit for better looking models is likely going to buy more of them.

I think I have the scan of that somewhere. Looked kinda lackluster at the time, but then I was looking at it through the 5th ed lenses.

Was he the one who said something along the lines of being bad at anti-tank was just part of the Ork's army.

>> No.26600507

Did he write OnG before or After Daemons?

After is obviously a case of "Don't write another army that can beat my Elves!"

Also, I think he's naturally better at writing 40k

>> No.26600516

Every time a book comes out that has some special rules in it for some subfaction I see guardfags crying everywhere about how they will never get Codex: Cadians or Codex: Catachans or Krieg, or Steel Legion, or...

>> No.26600518

>Don't forget how broken Eldar were in 4th ed... Against MEQ armies.

Fixed that for you. Had no problems in 4th grounding their flying circus with autocannons.

>> No.26600527

You could throw Catachan Devils at anyone from any side of the board.

it was insane.

Also Sly motherfucking Marbo.

and TRAPS.

>> No.26600531

You mean the guy who paid an arm and a leg for shit that only ever served in woodlands?

That's like that list with Drop Troops everywhere, where the game was decided on how good your reserves and scatter rolls were. Seriously, armies that play through rock-paper-scissor deployment aren't fun for anyone.

>> No.26600532

>And? That still only gives them a 3+ save against most attacks. TDA would halve the amount of casualties they would normally take. They're already looking pretty good as it is, letting them get 2+ 3++ would break them.

Did they remove the option to take Artificer Armour for the Vanguard Vets? Because otherwise you can have Jump Pack Assaultnators!

>> No.26600536

Revenwing, because black knights are awesome. +1 S, Rending, Skilled Riders, and Plasma Talons. Also Rad Grenades are pretty great if you want to ID a T5 or 6 MC like a riptide or daemon prince. Ha, now your daemon prince has a lower toughness than my bikers.

>> No.26600550

Apologies for stupidity; what does "TAC" mean? Not like tac squads, but a TAC Army.

>> No.26600552

It's funny, because how much more work for IG has forgeworld spent on them?

Even Higher then Marines. There is a reason for a huge hatred for forgeworld, and it's not for the Space Marines.

>> No.26600562

They can, they also get 2 wounds, carapace armour, +1 WS, 6+ fnp, and I think they outright ignore dangerous terrain, all for like 5 points more.

>> No.26600568

It set up with grids you set out on the table man. It wasn't random save for a rolle and even then you have traps that fucked over everything.

>> No.26600587

>Did he write OnG before or After Daemons?

Before, it was a clear case of new writer syndrome.
He made Orcs to weak and so tried a different approach and went to far the other way making daemons too strong.

>> No.26600591

They NEVER got as many codices. Even in 4th they didn't. And the ones they did get near the latter half (Eldar/Orks), would have been better off had they been delayed until after Allessio left the company so that the whole "strip-down" avoided them entirely. Now we have the half-assed 'one size fits none', where all unique variants have been removed and treated as color-scheme variants.

>> No.26600604

I honestly don't blame him, even as a Goblin player, He was totally fucked by the system.

I mean, His Wood Elves WORKED for ages on a decentish level against non-Dark Elves,Daemons and Skaven.

Until Vetock uttely wiped them out with the 8E rulebook

>> No.26600610

Just re-read it. Fucking weird now, a rule that says "Your opponent should remember to us his auspex". On the other hand, 13pts the Devil.

Then again, Guard back then was all about drowning people in targets. I remember the shitstorm when 5E rolled in and suddenly, the average IG list was worth around 25 KP.

>> No.26600620

>3e was a broken mess of a game system though,
3e WAS. 3.5e was a much needed rebalance and fix. 4th began with hopes of promise, but halfway through was thrown out the window in favor of a "remove all the fun" attitude.

>> No.26600622

It is literally years since I played my Catachans, all I remember is watching some SM players face melt when his tanks exploded and Catachan devils dropped out of nowhere and were like


>> No.26600626

>no mention of Pedro

Please please please be present an unchanged. Without you my Marines experience is incomplete at best.

Anyhow, this seems like a good change for me. The decrease costs mean I can fit even more scouts and contemptors around my gratuitous sternguard units.

On the subject of Eldar, their new stuff has put me in a weird position. I usually build armies around some fluffy theme, and now my theme is fucking awesome at killing people, which is a pretty new experience, whereas the stuff everyone else wanted to be good is shit. It's nice not to have to fight uphill for a change.

>> No.26600627

Dude, what edition are you playing? Vets haven't been top shit for ages. Mass infantry platoon and artillery for the win.

>> No.26600638

You'll get the same guys as now, but with a bit more spikes, 5 extra heads and some different armour mark legs.

>> No.26600639

Ward single handedly wrote one of the factions from being a shitty generic crap HE subfaction into being literally the best sounding faction in forever

>> No.26600653


Kelly did a decent job on Dark Eldars (yes they are a glass cannon, and are hard to master, but in the hand of a dedicated player they wreck shit abominably) and Craftworld Eldars (sorry, but their new Codex is pretty strong, despite a couple of misses).

Chaos Space Marines is a half-baked, half-finished, completely rushed release for an army that needed a real overhaul since they decided to separate CSM and Daemons. It can produce a couple of very strong lists, but over half of that codex borders on/is squarely in the "simply unfieldable" category.

Orks... Yeah, he fucked up, and 6th ed. didn't help them either.

In the end, 2 decent codex, one salvageable and one plain bad isn't too bad of a streak.

>> No.26600656

>Before, it was a clear case of new writer syndrome.
Which would be excusable, but wasn't because he wasn't a new writer at all. He'd done most of the work for LoTR, and did War of the Ring supplement, then went into Fantasy, and made two books. The WORST book, completely unplayable with each unit having a 1 in three chance of not doing what you want it to do. And then the most ridiculous book, that every army afterwards had to compete against. Then he headed the 8th ed rules project, and turned the game into "lol Purple Sun, your army died". 8th ed Fantasy is shit. And keep Ward the fuck away from Orks.

>> No.26600660

I would be happy with that. I just want some more natural looking poses. The new tactical box does that well.

>> No.26600661

I dunno, I haven't played against IG in years because I always carry two armies.

My Salamanders( Without Vulkan ) and my Necrons.

Any IG player who wanted a game I just said I'd reach for my Necrons, and then they kinda didn't want to play.

>> No.26600668

Well how much are they suppose to cost, when at 6pts. they were shit and at 5pts. they're totally OP?

>> No.26600671

Vetock wrote most of the rules for 8th edition.

Ward was there to ensure Chaos Daemons didn't dominate it.

>> No.26600675


1/10, try harder...

>> No.26600676

>Which would be excusable, but wasn't because he wasn't a new writer at all.

But he was a new writer, LoTR is a totally different game, and the only prior experiecne he had in Fantasy was the WE, which he didn't even get top billing for.

>> No.26600682

>I honestly don't blame him, even as a Goblin player, He was totally fucked by the system.
One doesn't do what he did to O&G book because he was "fucked by the system". One does that because they don't like the army. It doesn't take a fucking genius to see that an army where any given unit has a 1 in 6 chance of doing nothing, and a 1 in 6 chance of moving regardless of whether you want it to or not, is going to be an uncontrollable mess that will lose consistently.

>> No.26600683

>Rapetastically Awesome


>Good and fun to play with/against

>Orcs and Goblins
>Kinda bad

>Ogre Kingdoms
>Very Good powerwise, OK in general

>> No.26600686

>Implying I want to associate with those people.
>Codex Cadians
Take whatever you want
Light infantry and few vehicles besides sentinels
You already have a FW army list, but the same idea of anything else, just take droves of infantry, some storm troopers to represent grenadiers, some rough riders to represent death riders, and some tanks and artillery.
>Steel Legion
I play Steel Legion, I like their fluff, if you cannot make a fluffy army list with this or the previous codex (the others were harder because you needed to take independent armoured fist squads) you are clinically retarded. Platoon of guardsmen, toss them in chimeras, give them a missile launcher and grenade launcher, done. Toss on tanks and shit as you like because they rely on lots of support assets, you can also use conscripts as Ash Wasteland Militia or Veterans as Armageddon Ork Hunters. Honestly Steel Legion is like the Ultramarines, they have justification to take literally any unit.
FW army list, platoons of guardsmen in valkyries, maybe some sentinels, and storm troopers. Not the best army to make, but you can make something pretty good.

Honestly the only one that is really impossible to implement in a fluffy way is the Kanak Skull Takers or something, and they worked just fine under the old doctrines.

>> No.26600687

Anybody? Please?

>> No.26600692

6pts. - LD

More points on every none troop in the book besides ratlings, Ogryns and rough riders.

Vets are 0-1 for every Commander you have or cost a lot more.

>> No.26600698

Which faction is that?

>> No.26600708


3rd ed. Guard was a fucking decent army. Not the most OP, but it could rape you off the table beautifully, especially if you used their "Armoured Regiment" rules.

>> No.26600712

>In the end, 2 decent elfdar codex,
From an elfdar fan

Imagine that

>> No.26600713

Only good about 4e IG was a few doctrines that combined to some competitive monolist. The rest were decent at best, some even downright useless.

>> No.26600715


Oh yes, the just rape you in every phase bar the shooting phase instead of just the magic phase.

>Lizardmen Saurus with free spears.
They even hd a points decrease did they not?

>> No.26600717

>There is a reason for a huge hatred for forgeworld, and it's not for the Space Marines.
What huge hatred of FW? Honestly the only complaints I have heard about FW are that it is expensive. Who the fuck cares if they focus a lot on Guard? You don't need to buy their shit to play the game, hell a lot of their stuff can only be used in apocalypse, or are the exact same units only more expensive.

>> No.26600727

Wood Elves.

Before Ward, they were HE's in the woods.

After Ward, the are Fey Celtic beings with tons of brilliant lore and character.

>> No.26600735

I meant their rules, because they're always broken.

>> No.26600750

Weren't Marines one of the weakest armies before 5E? Or was it before 4E?

>> No.26600752

I love playing Necrons, massive battles in the air, a phalanx of warriors fighting a horde of guardsmen, storm troopers attacking deathmarks. Honestly I enjoy those more than anything, as long as no one goes too over the top with spamming shit it is great. Plus I don't feel bad about using 3 vendettas to transport my vets instead of 1 vendetta and 2 valkyries.

>> No.26600761

Take all corners, basically you can face any given list and win with yours. It's what most lists should be.

FW has always had units too good for the system. In 5e, it was melta immune vehicles. In 6e, it's the artillery where someone clearly doesn't understand the rules. Basically, if FW didn't focus so much on only Imperium, everyone could have access to such units and if everyone has it, well, it doesn't upset balance too much. People will contest this, but it's the reason all TOs will give for not running FW unrestricted, along with a totally fucked rules system where unless you're very on the ball you don't know where your current rules are.

>> No.26600768


He could have made them overpoweringly broken, you know... Like a certain IG writer!

>> No.26600772

Guardsmen cost isn't the problem. The problem is
>Chimera is too cheap for what it does
>Valkyrie and Vendetta are hideously undercosted
>Manticore shouldn't exist in non Apocalypse games
>Griphon rapes a bit too much for the price

Hydra was streamlined back to decency by 6E, and Vets stepped down once people stopped playing ALL ANNIHILATION, ALL THE TIME.

Solve the above and adjust SLIGHTLY the less than stellar units and the codex is good to go.

>> No.26600783

They really aren't any worse than GW proper. Honestly though, the best way to use FW IMO is taking individual units or characters, instead of a whole army list.

>> No.26600788

>Vetock wrote most of the rules for 8th edition.
>Ward was there to ensure Chaos Daemons didn't dominate it.
Codices, Army Books, and Rulebooks are a collaborative process. One writer heads the project, while the rest help. 8th ed Fantasy was Ward's project. He headed the development, most of the rules are his. Which is why it feels so much like War of the Ring.

And no, he was not a 'new writer'. He was well familiar with how to fuck up an army on purpose. The changes to O&G for 7th were not "lol I know not what I do" mistakes (i.e. Cruddace-Nids). They were specifically shit like "how can I make this army suck more... I know... we'll remove all their great magic armor, and replace it with an overpriced light-armor with +1 Toughness, and a shield nobody should ever consider using over the +2 armor save Enchanted Shield. We'll remove several Ward Saves. We'll make their 'best big badass 100pt weapon' a Runefang (cuz those are popular, lolz), and an easily negated bonus to Attacks and Strength based on ranks in the unit. Make their swarms 'Stubborn at Ld 4' instead of 'Swarm'." and so, so much more. This was the work of a man who specifically did not like playing against that army.

>> No.26600790

Meeplemart is great for war games. I prefer Hairy Tarantula for buying splats though

>> No.26600796

That's because they are Relic bullshit.

>> No.26600803

Gracias. I knew Take All Comers, but for some reason didn't get the acronym...

>> No.26600805

Oh, cool.

>> No.26600817

That is the first time I've seen that stated

>> No.26600819

Yeah, Marines are always pretty shit.

>> No.26600824

That wasn't Ward who decided to go the 'Fey Celtic Elf' route.

>> No.26600829

So The 8th rulebook MAGICALLY kept the Skaven Army book from falling off by given it tons of options that make Skaven super strong?

and MAGICALLY Skaven are one of Vetocks favorite armies?

and MAGICALLY it makes Wood Elves shit, when Wood Elves are Wards favorite Fantasy army?

>> No.26600838

He was the one that wrote the fluff so correctly and added crunch that fit with it.

>> No.26600860

Prior to 5th, they weren't one of the "weakest", but they were fairly mediocre and still used as the collective "average" to shoot for when building a list. And Black Templar during 4th were pretty decent.

The problem MEQ had, was Eldar and their "unbeatable flying holofields". Marine players never quite got the memo about how little damage those holofield Falcons really did for their points, but still threw every lascannon, meltagun, and missile launcher they could at the things. Riflemen dreads hadn't really become a thing yet, and only other armies like Chaos, or IG understood the benefits of Autocannons (admittedly, because loyalist marines didn't have many). Eldar for all their MEQ terrorizing ability in 4th, never really performed that well against Godzilla Nids, Orks, or IG. Unless they were specifically tailored to, in which case they did alright, but failed against their old nemesis MEQ armies.

>> No.26600868

Indeed he could have. A better example for you would have been to cite Gav during 3rd ed.

>> No.26600874

Guh, this discussion.

The Eldar codex is pretty good as far as game balance goes. Not great, but you can get some nice builds out of it. Some of it is truly useless but you can make a good army out of what isn't.

This >>26599986
is still valid, though.

Xenos players aren't really complaining that their army is underpowered. They're complaining that they don't get as much stuff. I mean, Eldar got, what, one new sculpt in 5E? A vehicle, IIRC, though I can't remember which one. I think they may have gotten one actual new unit in 4E, but I'm not sure. And most of their stuff is way more outdated that what the Marines currently have. On top of that all the peripheral stuff in the new Eldar codex is just... lame and boring. There's no way to really change up your army list, either through characters or things equatable to these new chapter doctrines, and the warlord powers suck ass.

Anyhow, the new rules look cool I guess. Some of them could be seriously way too good, but we'll see how they're ultimately implemented. I'm not so interested in any of the new units, but the general changes allow me to fit more stuff in my current build, so whatever.

>> No.26600883

>Valkyrie is hideously undercosted

It is? I mean, I know vendetta is pretty strong, but never pictured valkyries to fuck everyone's game up.

>Manticore shouldn't exist in non Apocalypse games

Surely you mean Deathstrike? Plenty of armies have mobile artillery missile platforms, why is the manticore so different? Sure, the missiles are pretty strong, but that's just needs a little tweaking.

>Griphon rapes a bit too much for the price

They always have. Don't know why GW can't get them in line.

>Hydra was streamlined back to decency by 6E

Then why is it every other army gets AA units that can also shoot at ground targets? I don't mind losing the jink negator and upping the cost, but being a vehicle purely for AA use seems a bit too much. How can you even be sure your opponent brings a flyer or skimmers? Without them their usefulness is way more limited over various other AA options available.

>> No.26600929

>Then why is it every other army gets AA units that can also shoot at ground targets?

Could you please cite me the Eldar and Chaos space Marine choices that have both skyfire and interceptor without being a flyer? Or those with Skyfire at all? Protip: ADL isn't a valid answer!

>> No.26600934

Didn't Eldar get like their entire range rebooted in 4E?

Haven't Marines basically had like character sculpts and thats it for two editions?

Oh and the Thunderfire.

>> No.26600964

Honestly I think the issue is
>Vets are too cheap for all the gear they can take, all the grear they get automatically, and their better stats. For 2 points they get +1 BS, krak grenades, the ability to take an extra 2 special weapons, and the ability to take some really good doctrines.
>Vendettas are undercosted and Valkyries are worthless. Valkyries are a flyer, nothing more, their gun is shit, their weapons are shit. It needs a complete overhaul.
>Chimera is too powerful. It isn't undercosted, the IG shouldn't have to pay 70 or 80 points for a transport, simply scale it down. It has no firing point, it has 3 lasguns on it, which can be fired if it has passengers, one can open the top hatch to give it 3 firing points, but making the vehicle open topped only for the purposes of rolling on the damage chart.

The Manticore is fine, perhaps a bit cheap, but it has limited ammo, and cannot be squadroned, as well as a high AP. Maybe make it 20 points or so more expensive, but it really isn't that bad. Hydra was never really bad, but the 6th edition errata made it worthless.

>> No.26600981

No, you fool. Skaven were several books prior to the 8th ed rulebook. There was already going to be a push towards "fuck-huorge" units in 8th, and a general strip-down of magic equipment. Skaven were built after Daemons, when literally every army after them had to directly compete against that bullshit. So Skaven got shit-tons of crazy contraptions and cheap-as-chips options. Lizardmen could take an army of Lvl 3 sorcerors using Stegadons to compete against Daemon magic-spam armies (see Tzeentch). And so forth.

8th turned the game into basically War of the Rings maneuvering, with random lol-charge lengths. Skaven do well on the horde side of things, but their 'big nasty' magic spells aren't quite up to snuff against other lores (see Purple Sun wiping out vast swathes of low-initiative armies). Where skaven excel is in low-cost horde units, which wasn't directly aimed for their benefit but rather to shift some focus away from the rape-train that had been units like Blood Knights, Chaos Knights, Daemons in general, Chaos Warrios, etc. Fantasy had had a history through 7th of 'elite combat units >>>>>> horde-ish combat units'. And so 8th meant to try to rebalance that.

Skaven, being a post-Daemon book of dirty tricks due to shitty unit quality, ended up with the better hand. And when they get revisited, will be stripped down to about 8 to 12 magic-items like everyone else.

If Vettock really wanted Skaven to 'be the best', like you say, then he would have kept the 'Shoot into Combat' rules to apply on everything and not just slaves.

>> No.26600991

I don't even care for Eldars, but it's amazing GW hasn't made more plastic Eldar kits. Seriously, they got like tons of units that are still non-plastic and you can't even really convert out of existing plastics like you can with Marines, Necrons or IG.

GW could double the number or Eldar units by making new kits for the existing ones and putting alternate aspects in there (like with wraithguard/blades). Just use the same bodies but give them alternate heads and weapons, maybe some aspect symbols in bits.

>> No.26601007

>Then why is it every other army gets AA units that can also shoot at ground targets? I don't mind losing the jink negator and upping the cost, but being a vehicle purely for AA use seems a bit too much. How can you even be sure your opponent brings a flyer or skimmers? Without them their usefulness is way more limited over various other AA options available.
This for the love of god. Before flyers it was pretty useful, you could rape transports and light vehicles, but it wasn't a huge thorn in someone's side, just kill it, they could have put a tank in that slot. After flyers it became useless outside of list tailoring for one reason, it can only shoot at flyers. Playing someone without flyers? Might as well pack your Hydra up, because you aren't going to actually do anything with it. If you know you are playing a flying circus it is great, but if you don't it is a retarded choice.

>> No.26601034


To everything there.

>> No.26601053

Eldar had their aspects re-done, a plastic Wraightlord. It was Orks and Dark Eldar who had their entire ranges redone, and both of which took 2 to 3 'waves' over the course of a few years. 4e Eldar had iirc one wave, and then a Shadow-Weaver kit.

The 4e Marine revisit had new tacticals, new terminators, plastic devastators. And so in 5e, they didn't need any new plastics (most plastics tend to last for two revisits.

>> No.26601100

Still 100/130pts for a 12/12/10 flyer. Not the toughest vehicle around (that would be the Heldrake) but still nothing funny.

Something able to cover a quarter of the table in S10 hits simply doesn't belong to regular 40K IMHO. That's the kind of large scale destruction that feels much more at home in Apocalypse.

They were horribly powerful in 5E because 75pts for ALL THE S7. Now they are what they should be: a specialist unit. Interceptor would push it slightly under Leman Russ Exterminator price to stop it from dominating again.

What breaks the vets is the Chimera's Firepoints and the Vendetta delivery service, not their statline. The platoons are much better at being Troops.

It would be a nice tank without the transport part (Front AV12 + Multilaser + Heavy Bolter/Flamer for 55pts isn't bad). The 5 Firepoints is the result of Cruddace writing while completely tripping balls.

>> No.26601105

Some Eldar stuff is 4th Ed, a lot is 3rd Ed. I think jetbikes may actually be older than even that.

Marines got a lot of new stuff in 5th Ed (not much plastic stuff, but still stuff). And their entire range is in-date enough to look okay.

>> No.26601114

Both have missile launchers that can fire on both air and ground targets.

>> No.26601173

I think this is all showing the big flaw with 6e - there's shit all flyer defence and when good stuff exists (aka Tau) it basically negates flyers because it hits upon entry. This is why Heldrakes and Scythes balls up the balance so badly - they had no reasonable counter, yet now it exists Necrons and Chaos are dropping of the face of the Earth. Then there's my own personal gripe about assault still being "oh hey, let's dance around each other never doing substantial damage all game" because of all the fearless/and they shall know no rules downsides going around.

Oh, also apparently heroic intervention is no longer charge after deep strike, it's just auto pass glorious intervention and ignore disordered charges. Pretty shitty.

>> No.26601235

>Still 100/130pts for a 12/12/10 flyer. Not the toughest vehicle around (that would be the Heldrake) but still nothing funny.

Sure, but it's not like it's guns ignore cover and fuck up Marines and shit. I can understand upping the cost of rocket pods, but 100pts. Doesn't seem THAT out of place for what essentially is a flying multi-laser. The Arvus Lander is 75pts. for no guns and people thing it's utter shit.

>Something able to cover a quarter of the table in S10 hits simply doesn't belong to regular 40K IMHO. That's the kind of large scale destruction that feels much more at home in Apocalypse.

Ergo, nerf the missiles.

>They were horribly powerful in 5E because 75pts for ALL THE S7.

75pts. for 4 TL autocannon shots. 75pts. also buys you an autocannon squad, which puts out 6 non-TL shots. Both should come down to average of 3 hits per turn. They also are Troops, can hide way more easily in terrain, etc.

>> No.26601281


Ah, yes, the stupidly overcosted Flakk missiles to be taken on top of stupidly overcosted missile launchers. Who can then fire on your turn a single S7 shot.

There IS a reason why people favor an ADL with quad gun, you know, it's because for the same price/cheaper you get 4 S7 shots but twin-linked and with interceptor.

>> No.26601295

>What breaks the vets is the Chimera's Firepoints and the Vendetta delivery service, not their statline. The platoons are much better at being Troops.
Vets simply offer too much firepower density for their cost. for 200 points you get an AV 12 transport, 3 BS 4 plasma guns, a BS 4 autocannon, and a pair of BS 4 plasma pistols, all of which can shoot from their AV 12 transport, which also has a str 6, heavy 3 gun and a multi-laser. Meanwhile 5 devastators with missile launchers in a rhino (1 wound before you start dropping guys with important weapons, the vets have 4), which doesn't have fire points. I'm not saying make them pay double for weapons or anything, simply make them as expensive as similarly lethal troop choices.
>It would be a nice tank without the transport part (Front AV12 + Multilaser + Heavy Bolter/Flamer for 55pts isn't bad). The 5 Firepoints is the result of Cruddace writing while completely tripping balls.
Chimera alone would be a shit tank, multi-lasers are crap (can't even pen AV 12 and almost no AP), with AV 10 sides. In the old Guard codex they used to be like 70 points, which is far too much for a basic troop transport. You need to remember, this is a Guard transport, there are cheap guardsmen in that transport, not 150 points of space marines. No one is going to want to buy a transport that costs more than the squad riding inside it.

>> No.26601313

>Ergo, nerf the missiles.
For example. And take the occasion to give it Sky Eagle missiles.

>They also are Troops, can hide way more easily in terrain, etc.
And they die to S6. I don't know for you, but my 5E meta was basically "One manticore, then all the hydras". Obviously, that was also before Hull Points.

>> No.26601366

They also have the downside of predatory fighter. They are good, not mediocre, but they are not op anymore.

>> No.26601497

>And they die to S6. I don't know for you, but my 5E meta was basically "One manticore, then all the hydras". Obviously, that was also before Hull Points.
Sounds like a retarded meta. Deepstrike some plasma guns and kill them, then laugh at them for wasting all of their HS slots and 310- 610 points on AV 12/10/10 vehicles. Seriously, it is an AV 12 and 10 vehicle that takes up the most or second most important slot in the army (depending on whether you view vendettas or tanks and artillery as more important).

>> No.26601521

>mfw i agree with this whole heartily

>> No.26601550

>whole heartily

>> No.26601813

Do Eldar or CSM have a unit that's pretty useless unless your opponent brings one specific vehicle type onto the field?

>> No.26601925

They have a few units that are useless no matter what your opponent brings to the field.


>> No.26601931

70pts. before upgrades. 85pts. with turret and hull guns.

Who ever decided that chimeras should have 5 fire points should be shot. I know they were trying to simplify the hull lasgun mechanics, but they failed utterly. Keep the 5 fire points, but 3 of those shots are fired as lasguns. I don't mind a small increase in price.

I don't know what to do with vets. If you limit IG Troops to just infantry platoons, people won't be happy. It'd seriously squeeze out every last ounce of character, since you can't have shit like carapace veteran regiments, etc. Imagine if every single Marine chapter was forced to take tac Marines as troops. The butthurt would be beyond measure.

>> No.26601958

>rough riders

Every army has that. I'm talking about a unit that's good at one specific purpose, and unless your opponent brings just that target onto the table, they're rather useless.

>> No.26602008


Why yes, they do! They even have units that are useless whatever units the opponent brings to the field.

If you seriously expect people to join in your whining because a dedicated AA unit is useless against non-flyers in an edition where flyers are a plague and most armies have trouble dealing with those, you're deluded.

>> No.26602176

And if you seriously expect people to join in your whining because your army, just like every other army, got dealt with some bad units, you're the one deluded.

I don't know where you play, but not everyone packs flyers, skimmers or even flying MCs, so there's a very good chance you're paying good points for a unit that gets to do jack shit.

And how exactly is the hydra superior to, say, quad gun?

>> No.26602210

Of course Eldar have something like that. Shit, man, that describes over half the Aspect units.

Chaos? Donno.

>> No.26602225

Different slot. Mobile. Fires at a decent ballistic skill without attendants. Can take more than 1 in a slot.

>> No.26602242

Ogryns have their uses.

>> No.26602283

Takes up Heavy slots while quad goes into Fort, stuck to BS3 while quad can have higher, BS1 vs. ground targets while quad is perfectly capable of shooting at ground targets, no interceptor, T7 3+ and can be put into cover, etc.

>> No.26602289

>warp talons and mutilators

>> No.26602332

Lets not forget that the hydra has 2 TL guns, so on the move it can fire only 1 TL autocannon and the other can only snap-fire.

>> No.26602349

>a unit that gets to do jack shit
You can always ram people.

>> No.26602796

All Melta weapons are AP1, there's no point to letting Salamanders re-roll a save they never get to take.

An update on that rumor states that Sallie Chapter Tactics only covers flamer weapons, you still need to take Vulkan to get twin-linked Meltaguns.

>> No.26602960

My opinions so far

New tanks - looking pretty good so far
Centurions - Ugly Tier
Vanguard vets - Meh
Character models - Meh
Chaplain - Coooooooool
Chapter Masters - breddy gud
Sternguard - Take my money thank you based GW

>> No.26603262

the problem with whirlwinds is they take up a HS support slot that can be filled by stormravens/devs etc. If they were a battery of 1-3 then they would be worth the slot

>> No.26603273

If anything, I'll be buying only Master of Relics and maybe the tanks, Sternguard will be combined from Tacticals and Necrons and bits because I'll be doing Iron Hands.

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