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26434054 No.26434054 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Is there any way to run a game all about shaming the players not for playing the game, but for engaging in escapist fantasies by playing RPGs in general? And for wanting to be a make-believe hero in general?

Like how Sayaka in Madoka Magica goes insane and crazy for trying to be a hero? Or how the guy in Spec Ops: The Line (pic related) goes crazier AND becomes a villain for trying to be a hero?

A campaign that basically says "This is all your fault for playing it. Your characters ruined and destroyed everything and killed hundreds of innocents. Everything would've been better if you never did anything."

How do you keep them playing?

>> No.26434084 [DELETED] 

Fuck off ass hole.

>> No.26434093

Wear a cup, because your players will punch you in the balls for trying that bullshit, unless you are VERY clear that this is you stated intent.

>> No.26434102

>How do you keep them playing?

If you have to ask this, you aren't skilled enough at storytelling, gamerunning, or life, to pull it off.

>> No.26434116

>Play an RPG that makes you feel bad for liking and playing RPGs
That's fucking retarded OP, and so are you.

>> No.26434132


>implying you can make me feel bad.

Surely you could just rail road them to this outcome?

White phosphorous was right!

>> No.26434135
File: 67 KB, 339x600, pomf pomf pomf.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I think this is an interesting concept. What's with all the hate?

>Captcha: hatestsv ought

>> No.26434137

What this guy said. You really should do it ONLY when you can figure it out yourself. Otherwise it won't work and feel forced.

>> No.26434152

>Spec Ops the Line, The RPG

>> No.26434156

The idea is to make it so that they don't see it coming though.

Hopelessness isn't hopeless if you come in expecting it.

>> No.26434160


Confirmed as Op, only the op thinks this is a good idea.

>> No.26434167

I think you should start out by making their characters feel guilty about trying to be the hero. Meta-shaming is advanced-advanced game mastering. And will make your players hate you if done wrong. You have a 50/50 chance of making your players hate you if you do it right, too.

>> No.26434169


Yeah because nobody ever knew the play they were going to was a tragedy--

Oh wait no literally the opposite happened.

>> No.26434184

Then prepare for vigorous dick punchings.

Or, just, you know, your friends calling you a dick, rightfully so, for pulling shit like this on them.

>> No.26434185

that is true for tragedy, NOT for the spec-ops kind of mindfuckery. THAT has to come out of the blue.

>> No.26434190


So your basicly saying your going to "Rape" your player's emotions with a bait and switch technique... no the guy above is right, wear a cup, because I would beat your dick in with a hammer if you were my GM.

>> No.26434197

What if one of your players doesn't use RPGs as an escapist fantasy?

>> No.26434209


Because SpecOps' message was completely neutered for the second generation of players--wait no, that's not true either.

If your story doesn't work after the twist is exposed, your story never worked at all. It was a cheap shock, not a mindfuck, no more skilled than a GM going "BUT THE BABY WAS A DEMON ALL ALOOOONG!"

>> No.26434210

Mostly unrelated:

Britfags with PS3s: Spec Ops: The Line is currently free for Playstation Plus users. If you haven't played it, do so. It takes the power fantasy that COD has been shitting out, and proceeds to stomp the entire idea into the pavement.

Polite sage for off-topic. I've got no experience in playing or running this kind of game but I'd damn well want to.

>> No.26434217

what else are you gonna use RPGs for? Except maybe an excuse to socialize with people and bring a tiny shimmer of hope into your dark, miserable neckbeard life. Which could also be called escapist fantasy.

>> No.26434245

To have fun with my friends?

>> No.26434248
File: 29 KB, 628x446, Spec Ops The Line.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

OP's inspiration is shit but also more of a movie than a game. You never had a choice in the movie of what you wanted to do. OP is advocating railroading of the highest order.

>> No.26434251

>How do you keep them playing?
Don't try.
See that's the brilliance of SpecOps. The player DOES have a choice at any time. The same choice Walker has.
They can turn off the game. Just, stop playing. Walk away. Go back outside the fucking stormwall and call it in like he was supposed to do, rather than being a glory hound.

>> No.26434257

Madoka Magica and Spec Ops: The Line do a bait and switch from "generic magical girl/FPS" to grimdark psychological horror and everybody loved their plots.

Why can't it work in an RPG?

/tg/ always says it's brilliant when a GM says to do one thing and then surprises them with something else totally. Like running a low fantasy game and then revealing the plot twist that the GM's running Rogue Trader instead.

>> No.26434265

Your players are mere mortal men, they don't know everything. They aren't omnipotent and all-knowing, so don't tell them everything. Walker didn't know those civilians were there, Sayaka didn't realize the path she was walking down. People make mistakes, horrible mistakes.
>How to keep them playing?
People want to fix these mistakes, but more than that they want someone to blame. Let your players scrap together something, SOMEONE to blame of their own accord with sprinkled details; give them that little push to go out and do it. Let them go on their rampage of revenge and redemption, only to leave the bodies of countrymen, friends, and the innocent in their wake. They'll chase that carrot stick to the ends of the earth, but when they finally give in to the hate and despair, when they finally realize what they've done, then you can give them a real choice: Continue chasing after their 'Evil ___', or take responsibility for the thousands of lives ruined and so many more destroyed.

Make sure you know your group well when you do this, know how they react to things in your game and how they push forwards, how easy it is to just give them a goal and watch then run off, swords drawn at it. And especially know your players, and keep a serious atmosphere while playing when the grim results of their constant good-willed mistakes comes about.

>> No.26434274

the second wave completly missed the point, though. They were expecting to be told "you are a horrible person". The first wave either figured it out by themselves (during play or after the game) or got told so after they finished the game. They weren't expecting it. They were on the rollercoaster of gory fun, not in the spookhouse of selfhatred.

>> No.26434275

>Except maybe an excuse to socialize with people and bring a tiny shimmer of hope into your dark, miserable neckbeard life.
To have fun with my friends, to RP new things. I'm well aware my life is a pathetic mess, I don't need to escape from it.

>> No.26434290

to have fun by sharing an escapist fantasy. duh.

>> No.26434292

Because players are morons, always.

>> No.26434293

god, you people are so boring. "i want the DM to tell me everything about the game before it happens or i'm going to throw a shitfit and leave". you should welcome the surprise.

>> No.26434301

>You never had a choice in the movie of what you wanted to do
see >>26434251
It's meta as hell, but it IS a choice.

>> No.26434305


Bitter cynical people are rather immune to spec ops style tricks. Neckbeards are the most bitter people I know.

>> No.26434319

Your players won't feel bad, they'll just feel - rightfully - that you're a pretentious idiot.

>> No.26434325
File: 21 KB, 239x258, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>comparing Moduka Magica with Spec Ops

>> No.26434329


Play "kill puppies for satan"

>> No.26434334

>the second wave completly missed the point, though

According to who? You?

SpecOps' twist was obvious to anyone who wasn't literally retarded within 30 minutes. If you really needed until the very end of the game or even after the "mindfucking" began, you don't get to confuse your shitty awareness with "getting it."

>> No.26434355


An RPG comes with a set of expectations, your not an outsider looking in, your creating the story just as much as the GM is, I can load up the game, or fire up the AVI if I wanted to play a game or watch a show, but i'm still playing someone elses tale.

For an RPG, I have to sit own, thinking of a charcter, spend the time to create a character, the key word there is to create, one does not create the characters of a show or a video game.

>> No.26434366

According to me, yes. Interpretations is always up to each individual observer, at least in literature.

The twist has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I saw it as a remnant of the games roots. Or maybe as a red hering, in retroperspective.

>> No.26434391


Even then, it took you until shit went down to go "man I'm doing some horrible shit"?

Again: Your crappy self-awareness is not "getting it," it's being bad at self-awareness.

Your game concept is one that will only work on the ignorant, stubborn, and uncreative, the exact sorts of people who wouldn't participate.

>> No.26434392

>Madoka Magica and Spec Ops: The Line do a bait and switch from "generic magical girl/FPS" to grimdark psychological horror and everybody loved their plots.
You're going to need about five separate citations to prove you're not a fucking twat.

>> No.26434402


The genre shift is something that needs to be executed exceedingly well, but...

Your average Fa/tg/uy is not good enough to pull that off.

And what you're proposing is different, drastically from that example.

"Make gritty realistic characters. Now, HAVE A FANTASTICAL SPACE ADVENTURE"

is lightyears away from


>> No.26434414

Interesting idea. It has a lot of potential to backfire from your players getting really mad at you for what they wind up seeing as you setting them up to fail. But it could be very interesting if done right. Here's my thoughts:

First, you have to give them at least some hope that they can do things right. Realizing that you're the real monster doesn't mean anything if you never had any say in the matter. There always has to be some means for them to resolve things without tragedy. The point is not that they did horrible things, but that they did horrible things when they didn't have to. Always leave an out, and rely on their preconceptions to keep them from seeing it.

Likewise, you have to give them both carrot and stick. When they do horrible things, it's not just because they were in a moment of desperation and had no choice. There needs to be a benefit to doing the wrong thing. This can be a simple material benefit like access to better loot, or something more abstract like a murder suiting their political goals. Make atrocity in their interests so that you eventually don't even have to talk them into the bad situations. They'll find their own.

Finally, if your players don't want to play your game, let them avoid corruption. If they can avoid doing evil in the situations you throw at them, that's fine too. Because the role of good men struggling to keep their morals in a harsh world can do just as much to break them out of power fantasy gaming as a fall to corruption. Remember that you're not trying to damn them, but to test them. If you do it right they'll be able to go off your rails entirely and still be dealing with the themes you want to. To keep their souls they'll have to play smart, play diplomatic, play characters with more depth and complexity than simple storybook archetypes. So if they "outsmart" you and avoid your tricks, you're still getting a good story out of it.

>> No.26434431

No, because we like playing games and can derive fun from Pen and Paper games?

>> No.26434450

See this is not going to work, because at any point, *in character* can a player says "No were going to find another way" or "Actually that would go aganst my alignment" and the whole thing falls apart.

Also I would punch you in the dick.

>> No.26434452

Why would you ever want to do this? It just sounds like a massive dick move on your part. It's not clever, it's not a deep commentary on the psyche or whatever the fuck you think it might be. It's just a dick move. Those games worked because the writers knew what the fuck they were doing, and because the player has zero input on the story. Tabletop RPGs are different, as they're a collaborative effort. They will either get mad and leave/dickpunch you for your little "twist", or give zero fucks and make a game about who can be the biggest monster to salvage whatever fun they can out of the shithole you call a game. OP, never DM. You don't know what in the fuck you're doing.

>> No.26434490

It actually took me until after the game to get it. Had to have other people spell it out for me. My reaction to the phospherous scene during the game was "Oh come on."

But that's between me and my bad self-awareness. my point still is that when you get told what you're supposed to learn before you actually did it yourself, your whole experience differs. Yes, some people figured the fingerpointing out just as soon as they loaded up the game. But others didn't.

...what's my game concept?

>> No.26434497

>Marche asks /tg/ for advice on how to run his new campaign.txt

>> No.26434499
File: 174 KB, 299x240, MrBones Wild Face.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I don;t know about you guys, but I played the SpecOps thinking "You know what this operation needs? MORE WAR CRIMES!" and it was way better than I think it was meant to be.

>> No.26434500

By "proceeding along the questline" you make bad things happen. You only "proceed along the questline" because you think you're supposed to, or to put it a better way you do it as "progress for progress' sake". The way we unquestioningly do what a (video)game tells us to do, not in a "do as you're told" way, but in a "doing progresses the game, and we must progress the game" way. It's a tricky point to get across, and doesn't work so well in PnP RPGs as there doesn't have to be only one path to go down that has "progress", so casually committing some genocidal atrocity just because you're supposed to in order to advance the story isn't definitely going to happen.

It should be the aim of a GM to have varied outcomes and solutions to a quest and be open to whatever their players can come up with, thus avoiding the point described above; no railroading. However, players are often unimaginative fucks and copy the shit they do in videogames by killing anything that stands in their way, to which consequences should be meted out, perhaps.

Spec Ops: The Line only works as a deconstruction of the modern FPS CoD-likes, to play it as its own game without the playing these other games means it's shouting you a message you can't understand yet as you have no real idea what it's talking about hence why many /v/irgins say Spec Ops is shit; they heard it was good and started playing it without having played too much CoD.

>> No.26434516

What sort of players do you have that they actually "proceed along the questline"?

>> No.26434528


>> No.26434534
File: 29 KB, 400x454, tabletop_roleplaying.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Recursive roleplaying. Have your players roll a bunch of "heroic" characters who all meet up in a tavern... and instead of leaving the tavern, drag the characters into starting *their* own game. You might want to do a solid job of RPing the tavern settings by adding "realistic" stories of heroics passing around as tavern gossip, etc.. So you can do your shaming tricks as part of the tavern setting while you get the players to RP inside the RP. It also adds a decent abstraction layer to the theme so you dont have to worry about shit getting too personal.

>> No.26434539

Not really.
It's not even so much "YOU, the player, are a bad person." as it is "Cookie cutter Cowadoody shooter plots are fucking terrible and often gloss over possible repercussions of player actions in favor of serving as nothing but a shallow power fantasy."

>> No.26434548

did you actually read his post? that's exactly his point.

>> No.26434551

>They can turn off the game. Just, stop playing. Walk away. Go back outside the fucking stormwall and call it in like he was supposed to do, rather than being a glory hound.

The difference being the player paid money for the product, and it's only sensible to finish it. To get the experience you purchased.

This is why I felt a healthy attachment from Walker.

Unless you pirated it, I guess.

>> No.26434553


You better have a plan B if they decided to "Get off the rails" by actually playing to there alignments, if at any point they say "There has to be another way to complete this task" then you failed.

>> No.26434565
File: 49 KB, 508x554, The Face of Evil feat. Cherry Butt, Pizza Cutter Sword and Dem Tys.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.26434573


No, simply because the medium in which that story is told. It works in videogames because of the history behind the premise, and the story is a linear one, with at most the illusion of choice. We take the role of a character to explore a narrative at the most in the videogame.

This all sounds very familiar to tabletop, but things happen in videogames by design. Tabletop introduces both a random and improvisational element to the storytelling experience. Rather than taking an already existing character however, we design our characters personally and integrate them into the story. This is a kind of escapism that could not be done in a game like Spec Ops: The Line.

Players of tabletops need to be informed with the direction of the game, and have to agree on premises of the game. This does include agreeing to leaving all the storytelling power in your hands.

Such content is metatextual and dramatic, something very difficult to do in tabletops, because you as a DM are directly saying to your players you are horrible people for doing this, look at how much you suck. This is not what players want to escape to.

TL:DR No, it's not possible. Don't get your dick punched.

>> No.26434574

>They can turn off the game. Just, stop playing. Walk away. Go back outside the fucking stormwall and call it in like he was supposed to do, rather than being a glory hound.

But the moment you START the game, you're already playing as Walker in a scene 75% into the chronological timeline of the game, meaning horrible atrocities have already been committed.

>> No.26434578


* detachment

fuck, I suck.


I felt it was pretty good as its own story rather than as a message. Like you don't need to have seen shoot em up guts and glory 'nam movies to enjoy Platoon.

>> No.26434593

Actually, all Walker had to do to prevent his men from dying, is TURN THE FUCK AROUND AND FOLLOW HIS FUCKING ORDERS.
They were to recon just inside the stormwall, then head back outside and call it in. But Walker had to buck for some glory, had to try and be the standard FPS hero, instead of doing his fucking job.

>> No.26434605

Yeah. SpecOps was a good game, but I felt the message was kinda forced. If you didn't know war is hell before, you're a dumbass, and if this was the eye opener for you, you're an even bigger dumbass. The game was trying to show you that CoD games are bad because they glorify violence, not make the players feel like a terrible person.

That white phosphorous scene was railroading however, and it didn't leave as much impact as it would if it was made willingly. You can't go back, you can't change what's going to happen, and then it insists to make you feel bad for taking the only option there. It's like an angry woman squatting with her bare ass in your face when you sleep and then getting angry at you for staring at her ass. You shoved it there first, lady.

>> No.26434607

I don't understand the problem here. Every source I've looked says Madoka Magica was one of the best animes in the past decade and Spec Ops: The Line had an incredibly compelling story.

They can do a bait and switch really well and /tg/ praises doing the "Oh, we're only using Rogue Trader for the system... NOT!" thing.

Why can't any GM surprise the players any more?

>> No.26434613


Could you do that in game? Would you be rewarded with this? or are you just turning off at game you invested in?

No... So that argument falls apart.

>> No.26434614

That's a funny way to spell "character".

>> No.26434620

Yahtzee, what're you doing on /tg/?

>> No.26434641

OP, you know that Madoka and Spec Ops were only enjoyable as something you watch, right? That it was utter shit for the people experiencing it?

>> No.26434658

>you continued because going home wouldn't reward you

Looks like you missed the point there.

>> No.26434661

Madoka had good ideas that eventually ended up soured. The ending was trite crap you saw coming from miles away. Can't say anything about SpecOps.

The problem is, you are not playing a game with your friends, which is what people are there to do. You are forcing them to play as puppets in your wanky little grim'n'edgy shit.

>> No.26434679

Buzz kill was the game.
Alternate between D&D and asking players questions about the nature of their actions.
Ask them leading questions about their PC's actions, like "have you ever entered the home of another with intent to harm?" and "when was the last time you killed?" and "who did those items belong to?"

Sigh in disappointment and make notes as they answer. Call the session off after an hour, telling the players that "the orderlies will take you back to your cells."
Next week, normal game.

>> No.26434691

But they send a message to the viewers.

Why can't an RPG send a message to the players?

>> No.26434698


The bait and switch in Madoka is Episode 3. It's a 12 episode deal. If it was WHAT A TWEEST, it'd be a gimmick and you could cram what was worthwhile into an OVA. As is, it's still a damn good magical girl story. It doesn't make the audience feel bad for coming along for the ride.

Spec Ops is Heart of Darkness. It's not a massively novel tale in that regard, but it plays with symbolism and some really strong scenes to get the player to connect to Walker and his dark journey. Again, this isn't a typical first person shooter after Level 2. Again, it's still a damn good shooter story that appeals to shooter fans.

OP fucked up his question. They're not asking 'how do I explore what roleplaying is a bit while I tell a damn good story', they're asking how to make people feel bad they chose to engage in a cooperative social exercise in them.

>> No.26434712

You seem to be projecting far too heavily onto a fictitious character, anon.
That's what WALKER could have done, and should have done.
The PLAYER is not really the bad person. Walker is. Because he tried to be the typical shooter protagonist, instead of doing things by the book. As a deconstruction of the typical modern shooter, the game must construct itself as one. That means not giving the player any truly meaningful choices in the direction the narrative takes.
A couple reasons.
First: You are not good enough to pull it off.
Second: Players given full control of their actions will likely be savvy enough to avoid making the mistakes the main characters of the works in question made.

>> No.26434714

I think the only way things like this can be done if players actually take choices that bite them in the ass later on.
Like that one copypasta. Where the players decided "fuck the BBE, we gonna do political stuff". I think they got rights for homosexuals and stuff. And when they finially accomplished their goal, an army of undead invaded the country and killed everyone. Because the lich BBE didn't care about their personal crusades for human rights.

>> No.26434716


The point was, there was no programed way to "Turn around" which ruins the message of "You could have stopped"..., No one buys a game to not play it.

But you can stop, you can turn around in an RPG, and the GM can't do shit about it, unless he drops a rock from the sky on your head.

>> No.26434739

It's a pretty good comparison.

But seriously, when did you feel more like an asshole? When the game forces you to do something horrible and then gets all up in your face with that, or when you know you made that choice willingly? Seriously, play Planescape as an Evil asshole and tell me you don't feel like shit. Spec Ops didn't have that effect - because it isn't you who's the asshole, it's Walker, and either way there was no other choice you (or he) could've made at that moment.

>> No.26434740

Yes. If the players fuck up, that's fine, but setting out to force them into doing it is being a bad person, a bad friend and a very bad GM.

>> No.26434743

Oh, and

> Ctrl-F
> no mention of Violence


It's a game of D&D set in the modern era. Basically that makes the players violent home invaders to be gunned down by cops.

>> No.26434760


Except that the whole point of the game, even with several lines in the game it self, is that you as the player are partially responsible for the character. You pulled the trigger on his gun after all.

Don't get me wrong, I actually love this game for what it is, but it would be a real shity RPG unless you were on the biggest railroad ever. I'm talking the GM saying "If you don't kill your way through these refugee's the world ends"

>> No.26434775


No one's saying they can't. We're saying that what you have on mind is a method that might work in one medium but doesn't in another.

You need to understand that people don't play games the same way they watch anime or play a computer RPG. You're the GM, but you aren't the only one planning out the story and choosing the "message," if you want to call it that--it's collaborative storytelling, and if the players feel that you're trying to bully them into feeling a certain way, they'll either tell you to fuck right off or dick with you in return.

tl;dr stop assuming your players are passive consumers and then come back to the question.

>> No.26434777

The willy pete scene really was the weakest "you bastard" moment in the game. The best one was the earlier scene, where you had to choose between trying to save civilians, and trying to save the spook who has information you want.

>> No.26434790

that Buzz kill game, didn't that come with the rules lite one about the puppets?
You know the one were no one was allowed to leave character and everyone was a puppet in puppet land fighting the dude who wore the puppeteer's face as a mask. And when the session was over you would switch over to Buzz Kill and it turns out the players were crazy the whole time.
I'm positive that was a thing

>> No.26434805


>> No.26434813

Get that 'Meta' bullshit out of here.

They should've given you a real choice.
If they wanted it to have a real impact they would've put in a choice to just turn around IN THE FUCKING GAME.

Turning off the game is the meta version of killing yourself.

So basically what you're saying is the people should kill themselves instead of kill people that shot at them first.

>> No.26434814

yahtzee pls get out

>> No.26434815

Actually, I should've phrased that way better. You as the player don't have a choice, you're in it for the ride. Walker had a choice, and he didn't take it.

Agreed. That one was much better because you had a choice about what you could do. Are you going to save those civvies and risk the mission, or are you going to let them die for the sake of the mission?

>> No.26434820

OP, you're a cock, and I hope you go to get a drink later, only to find the floor of your darkened room spontaneously covered in legos, thumbtacks, and game science d4s.

>> No.26434855

How do you send a message to the players in an RPG if you're the GM?

The message I want to send is shaming the players for trying to engage in heroic power fantasies.

>> No.26434860

it was called Puppetland/Powerkill, I believe.

>> No.26434862


Maybe OP could railroad them in a way they could not stop. IE They like European colonizers carry filthy diseases the local yokels are unable to survive. So every town and village is friendly enough but soon people get sick, the party moves on to next thing, when they come back all but a handful of the townsfolk are dead.

Papa Nurgle's awesome adventure!! Every sneeze is bound to please!

>> No.26434872

Even if you managed to pull off a tragic game without being a totally douche (which I highly doubt), there is still a non-zero chance the characters will turn into Bruce Campbell. Should this happen consider yourself lucky because your game has become far more awesome than anything you could ever have planned.

>> No.26434884

>Turning off the game is the meta version of killing yourself.

>So basically what you're saying is the people should kill themselves instead of kill people that shot at them first.

Woah, that's a bit of an extreme analogy I feel.

If anything it's buying something then refusing to use it, for no good reason. It can sit in the Moral Superiority Pile with Shadow of the Colossus and FF Tactics Advance, neat and unopened. The gratitude of all those fictional characters is overwhelming.

So the equivalent for this cunning game of OPs is the winning move is not to show up to the game. Or any of their games, I guess. You can never be sure.

>> No.26434896

OP you basicaly lwant Funny Games: The RPG.

>> No.26434900

>not tryhard edgy bullshit


Madoka works if you haven't seen Ideon, Nadesico or any number of the other "genre inversion" anime.

>> No.26434903

why thank you anon I feel much better now

>> No.26434913

That shit isn't even playable as written, and is the most pretentious pile of crap I have ever read. Fuck you

>> No.26434918


Then your not shaming the PC's... that's shit outside of there control, also depending on the setting the cleric can fix that little touch of plague right the fuck up.

Unless the GM railroads them to saying no. in which case he gets punched in the dick


You don't, play something else. If your trying to shame your players for playing the type of game they enjoy, your asking for a punch to the dick.

>> No.26434924
File: 20 KB, 440x324, wargames.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

pic so related it hurts. even the title fits.

>> No.26434939


It's almost as if that's what the OP is asking for with a game centred around making players feel ashamed!

I'm guessing you got to the bit he's whining about property rights before you went 'oh fuck this'

>> No.26434947

One of the plots suggested in the conspiracy game "Over The Edge" included the characters getting hold of the following handout:

>If you think you are a real person on the island of Al'Amarja, read this:
>You're not. Al Amarja does not exist. You are merely a figment of someone else's imagination, with no existence, will or consciousness separate from your creator.
>Everything you think you have gained, suffered, sought, or accomplished is imaginary, designed solely for the amusement of a handful of people who really do exist. You are a player character in a role-playing game. The truth may hurt, but at least now you know your true nature.

>> No.26434957

Eat a bag of dicks.

>> No.26434963

I think a much more clever way of doing what Spec Ops and the OP are trying to do is what the Lonesome Road expansion to Fallout New Vegas did. Yes, you're railroaded, but most of what Marcus was saying actually had impact, and was true of how most people played the game.

What the OP could do is try to make the player's bad chocies actually matter without being all "NO YOU ARE THE DEMONS"

>> No.26434964

Not this shit again.

>> No.26434968


Sounds like you got to just after naming your character. That's a big old bag of rage too.

>> No.26434972
File: 83 KB, 640x480, reality.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


Are you sure you want to do that? It would be a lot simpler just to call your friends fags and throw dice at them.

If you want to play a different kind of game, just talk to your players and ask them. D&D isn't the only kind of RPG out there, you know.

Alternatively you could keep playing this game but gradually introduce plots to the players with more shades of gray, or plots that can't be solved by their strengths. If you can get them invested in the story (probably unlikely in your case, but even a broken clock, etc.), they might start to reevaluate whether their characters really work as people and not statblocks.

>> No.26434985

Go fuck a donkey

>> No.26434989
File: 122 KB, 1550x950, The dearest of all my friends.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

"There was something disturbingly familiar about the note on the desk. The handwriting was all pretty curves."
"You're in a roleplaying game, Max."
"In a flash of green, it all became clear. My whole life was just numbers, statistics on a page, my successes and failures determined by a handful of dice. Funny as hell, it was the most horrible thing I could think of."

>> No.26434996


To me that's equivalent of spec ops the line. Its not your fault the game is retarded.

Anyway I think OP is on to something because for people to be all dick punch, they must of imagined a way this was possible. While a few other just think its impossible.

I think he would be better off trying to corrupt his players the traditional way with juicy choices, and then making them pay for their choices.

>> No.26435013
File: 62 KB, 580x750, Fatal.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


there allready is one

>> No.26435024

If they game was really ever trying to give the player a choice (something I'm not sure it was ever attempting, honestly) it would have benefited from a "Leave Dubai" option in the pause screen. Pause the game, select the option, fade to black. Get a written report of the result of your actions up to that point, but other than that no ending.

>> No.26435025


Isn't this just a really good Evil campaign, really? Evil characters, well some evil characters that are fun and compelling, honestly think they're the hero. A crusading evil party taking down fools, sycophants, tyrants and threats others are afraid of are, to themselves, crusading knights.

I mean in Spec Ops you knew shit was going south a half hour in. You continued playing because it was interesting. There was no ruse.

The trick is to play to the character perspective strongly enough that you can either swing it to what people think of them later on, or leave players to fill in the gaps later.

>> No.26435042

Nah, you play FATAL to be amazed at how wrong the game is.
You play Black Tokyo to feel ashamed.

>> No.26435090

Shouldn't any game you set up in which you consider realistic consequences produce outcomes your players could feel bad about?

>> No.26435101

your point is sound and well stated. Thank you for posting.
obviously not (spec)OP(s)

>> No.26435103

Is that a game about wigger azn dorks?

>> No.26435126

>Have the players think they're helping everyone else
>Have it happen plausibly that everything they've done has fucked everything up
> L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

But if you have to ask, you'll fuck it up and your players will hate you.
It cant be the "theme" of a campaign, it can happen at the end of an arc or whatever, but you cant really "plan for this ooh this is what's going to happen."

It also helps if your players are already playing a game where their actions have pretty harsh(but realistic) consequences.
But don't pigeon-hold your PCs into anything, if you want this stuff to happen, your players will have to make it so.

We didn't feel bad about playing the game after we were done, and that really shouldn't be your intent either. But we did think about our actions and regret not thinking of things besides how it affected us in the short-term or to the people on the first level.

>> No.26435130

It's Tentacle Futa Rape Hentai: the Game.

>> No.26435149

No, it's 100% pure, concentrated fetish shit.

>> No.26435150


Except the second you put down an evil alignment on paper, your setting the expecation to your self.

the OP is proposing deception, you put CG for an alignment, and the GM makes you do CE stuff to advance his plot.

It fails because the CG character is going to say "No this is to far" and walk away, so he doesn't feel ashamed for doing the right thing, even if the consequences are severe. The world may end, but he stayed true to his principals.

Then he punches the GM in the dick.

>> No.26435160

>Lonesome Road

Meh. The biggest fucking thing Marcus had to come with was shit that my character supposedly did by accident, and with no real way of knowing what the result would be. And because that alone wasn't stupid enough, my character apparently created a fucking civilisation, had it nuked to hell, and this is the first I fucking hear of it? I guess I can live with having some bits beyond "vault dweller" shoved into the backstory for my character without my input (but, frankly, for a game like this, please don't) but when you go through the entire fucking game and two expansions before you even hear about what should be some of the major defining points in your history?

Fuck that noise. Even with the worn old amnesia card in play you start building up to the reveal early on, you don't just make a big diarrhoea dump of it all in the last expansion.

>> No.26435178

It's a first person game with a single playable character. You are Walker.

>> No.26435180

You're probably thinking of RaHoWa.

>> No.26435183
File: 503 KB, 300x222, 1369104271831.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>It's Tentacle Futa Rape Hentai: the Game.
>feeling shame

>> No.26435189


>> No.26435192

>Black Tokyo

Yeah but then the game goes on, because not the PC's can try to fix the shitstorm they created, and the story continues as the hero's fix the world again.

Unless the GM keeps making shit worse, in which case....

>> No.26435209

>It's a first person game
So you never played it, huh?

>> No.26435221

hahaha is this nigga serious? are you nigga serious?

>> No.26435225

It also includes a lot of scat, guro and similar stuff that's pretty much required you to take.
I think there's something like shitty diapers armor.

>> No.26435246

Literal shit armor that is squeezed from your pours.

>> No.26435253

No, it's armor literally fashioned from your own shit via magic.

It's like Uncle Bones' Wild Ride. The horror never ends.

>> No.26435256


>the OP is proposing deception, you put CG for an alignment, and the GM makes you do CE stuff to advance his plot.

That's a tough one, because in an interactive medium the most powerful tool is retcon, 'surprise your actions were in fact massively harmful' and retcon is also the most irritating one. Even in Spec Ops, the game had bits where it didn't accept you going off one of three or so beautifully carved rails. Or in the case of shooting at Americans, a shaky little monorail.

What I'm pitching is you either don't have an alignment at all, or you play a character strongly enough you don't keep checking your character sheet for advice. It can be done. That's how characters end up accidentally being different alignments.

>> No.26435319


But you haven't adress the biggest problem with this... besides the getting punched in the dick.

How do you, as the GM, overcome a player who says "no I will not do this terrible thing your presenting me with"

You can't feel shame, if you don't do the shameful thing to begin with.

>> No.26435326

Okay, wow. That's bad.

Now, for that dude up there who mentioned FATAL, here's some armor from that game:

> Jewy Jewbacca, of: Whosoever dons this armor will acquire a nose twice the size and a manhood half the size. Further, the wearer will become extremely greedy and fight to the death for one silver piece. Finally, the wearer acquires 2 inches of hair all over their body, resulting in halving their Facial Charisma and Bodily Attractiveness. While hairy, the wearer must bathe every 1d6 hours or smell foul. The armor may be removed at any time and the wearer will return to normal.

> Nigrous Nincompoopery, of: Whosoever dons this armor experiences a loss of 1d100 points from each sub-ability of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. The ass of the wearer will grow by 50% and be abnormally high. If the wearer is male, then those around him are 80% likely to believe that his manhood has increased, though it has not. The skin of the wearer becomes cursed and dark as night. Disposition turns to UI. Temperament becomes phlegmatic. The eyes of the wearer are visible 3 miles away at night. The wearer will have a body odor for 1d10 feet. On the bright side, the Physical Fitness of the wearer increases by 10%. The armor may be removed at will.

>> No.26435335

>First, you have to give them at least some hope that they can do things right. Realizing that you're the real monster doesn't mean anything if you never had any say in the matter. There always has to be some means for them to resolve things without tragedy. The point is not that they did horrible things, but that they did horrible things when they didn't have to. Always leave an out, and rely on their preconceptions to keep them from seeing it.

It's only tragic if it could've gone right if the main character (or party, in this case), but didn't.

>> No.26435340

there is no way "shit" is open to interpretation?
armoured by pages of FATAL?
or a shroud of whatever happens to come out of OP's mouth?

>> No.26435353

Well in our case, we got kicked out of our home even after we pretty much "helped save the world hurr durr" because we fucked up even worse after that.
We're trying to help from another town, but the real mess that's coming, those characters aren't even aware of them. [In another group with the same GM, they're trying to deal with that problem in an entirely different way, and the group I'm in is probably going to accidentally fuck with their attempts to help and all.]

Even though we "learned our lesson" and are kind of shell-shocked after everything happened, I have a feeling we're just going to still keep fucking up in ways we cant even really see.

Also I have no idea what Black Tokyo is

>> No.26435403

>We're trying to help from another town, but the real mess that's coming, those characters aren't even aware of them.

You want the player to feel bad that shit happened that they were given no hint of?

Target....................................................where you hit if each dot is about 5 miles

>> No.26435404


You can't.

You either let them make a choice that is awful because there's a conceit that behaviour is allowed in this game, or let them make a choice their character would have done which while awful is just them playing a role.

Neither of these things are anything to be ashamed of, but are things players might convince themselves they are ashamed of doing. It's not rational but it happens. It's also probably not healthy to set out to do that.

>> No.26435421

I'm a player character, not the GM.
I'm also a player character in that other group

>> No.26435438


And there lies the point I was aiming for, either you make them "ashamed" for following the railroad, or "ashamed" because they let you waste there time. Guess which one will get you beaten, and your GM card permanently revoked?

That's a trick question, because it's both.

>> No.26435465


>Shadow of the Colossus
>Moral superiority

The fuck?

>> No.26435494

Despite being a white agnostic I want to carve FATAL's author into fine meaty chunks.

Maybe he's a servant of Khorne?

>> No.26435513

> Jewy Jewbacca, of: Whosoever dons this armor will acquire a nose twice the size and a manhood half the size. Further, the wearer will become extremely greedy and fight to the death for one silver piece. Finally, the wearer acquires 2 inches of hair all over their body, resulting in halving their Facial Charisma and Bodily Attractiveness. While hairy, the wearer must bathe every 1d6 hours or smell foul. The armor may be removed at any time and the wearer will return to normal.
I'm jewish and this hits uncomfortably close to home. And by home I mean way too many relatives.

>> No.26435540


When the fuck did Shadow of the Colossus fall into the pretentious morality-playing genre? Nothing Wander did was wrong.

>> No.26435554

It still works just fine.

They go over soul gem corruption in what? Episode 2? Between that and the Faust slapped everywhere, it's not like there was any attempt at hiding how this show was going to go.

>> No.26435560

Nah, Slaanesh. And even Slaanesh feels unclean next to this dude.
It's amazing how bad it is. Here're some more items from the game.

> Demonseed: If a character swallows a demonseed, they will instantly become magically pregnant. An anakim will be born in 1d100 days. Upon birth, the bearer dies.

> Rapeseed of Raping: If a character swallows this seed, they will attempt to rape the next member of the opposite sex in sight regardless of age.

> Seed of Doubt: Whosoever plants a seed of doubt will grow a dark plant unknown to nature. The plant will grow regardless of the quality of the soil. The plant will grow to be 1d10 feet tall. The plant will grow to maturity in 1d100 days and will live for 1d1000 days, even without water. When the plant is mature, it will lower the PP of humans within 1d1000 feet by 10 PP for each foot of the plant. Somehow, those humans who lose all PP will believe they are slaves. A plant of doubt will produce a number of seeds of doubt equal to the number of feet of its height squared.

> Seed of Hate: If this seed is planted in front of a home of a druid, the seed will grow into a tree of (100 + 1d100) feet in height and 5d20 feet in circumference. This tree will grow to full height in 3d6 days. This tree will grow regardless of moisture, climate, or light. This tree cannot be cut or burned down. The leaves will be black and the veins are red. This magical tree will cause all creatures, insects included, within 2d100 miles to hate the druid. The only way to kill a tree that resulted from this seed is for the druid to anally copulate with a specific type of living forest creature. The druid must ejaculate, thereby sowing a seed of love. The MM must roll percentile dice and consult the table below: Oftentimes, the druid begins an anal frenzy attempting to thwart the tree. There is a 10% chance thereafter that the druid develops a bestiality fetish.

>> No.26435628


Well like FF Tactics and Spec Ops, you had people saying afterwards they felt bad because of what happens. In all three games the player is confronted with the scale with what they are doing, and might feel like they are doing something 'wrong'. If they like the story, it doesn't really matter - it's the characters story, not theirs,

>> No.26435684

> Rapeseed of Raping: If a character swallows this seed, they will attempt to rape the next member of the opposite sex in sight regardless of age.
What if we make Canola Oil of Raping out of the Rapeseed of Raping?

>> No.26435718

OP you could try having a BBEG make the old "good needs evil to be good" speech. Have villians constantly tell the players how they like him doing bad things becuase it gives them a chance to be the nig hero and reap the rewards that brings. How they requier a constant flow of villians so they have an excuse to keep flaunting about the place in their fancy expensive armour, the price of which could be put to some real use building a hospital. Mention how vilonce begets vilonce, the players aren't solving the problem, merely prolonging it.

This sounds a god awful game.

>> No.26435767

I'm pretty sure the seed has to be swallowed whole to work.
That said, this is FATAL, if you make Canola oil of Raping I doubt anyone will notice something strange happening.

>> No.26435784


That's silly, the only damage Wander did was to himself and it was for a noble cause. Plus he reincarnated as a baby, so it was all good.

>> No.26435789

I actually like the Seed of Doubt.

Think I'll use it somewhere.

>> No.26435791

>This sounds a god awful game.

Agreed. If the player is oh so bad for playing, don't make the fucking game in the first place. Oh yeah, and none of it's real, so only a fucking retarded inbred faggot would think something like this is deep. Oh wait, Spec Ops and all that. How /v/ has fallen.

>> No.26435904

I actually felt pretty bad for killing some of the big guys, especially ones where I was the clear aggressor.

Besides, we don't know if what Wander was doing was noble or what would have happened if Dormin had been released.

>> No.26436097

Yeah, the Seed of Doubt is actually pretty neat, but the seeds kind of throw me off, because I wonder why the hell there isn't a forest of doubt somewhere.

>> No.26436222

Maybe there are? I'm guessing they're pretty rare, though, because the trees die out really fast and grow back even faster.
Hell, these things must be pretty useful for slaving societies - just surround the area where they live with these things, make them care for them and nurture them, and you have a mindwashed army of workers in a couple of days.

>> No.26436280

I always feel bad in WoW when I have to kill non aggresive creatuers.

>> No.26436328

>Maybe there are? I'm guessing they're pretty rare, though, because the trees die out really fast and grow back even faster.
Yeah, to me it kind of seems like looking at the life and death of a forest of doubt would be seeing one tree sprout more trees, until a big clump appears, then the clump dies from the inside out, with sporadic deaths in the outside until it expands both from the outside in and outwards.

Kind of like a weird pulsing, blinking infection of mindslavery, until the dice align just right and literally the entire growing forest just dies all at once.

>> No.26436391

Well, we assumed that these things aren't edible. Maybe there are animals that eat the seeds, or the bark or something.
Otherwise, it'd be just a huge brambly growth of domination spreading forth.

>> No.26436473

Yeah, it just makes you feel like a prick.

>> No.26436491

>Maybe there are animals that eat the seeds
I don't know if it makes the SoD more palatable or horrifying.

>> No.26436557

There's no indication that eating the seed causes you to get mindraped, or develop mindraping powers.
Or, if the seed will sprout inside the animal that ate it, and grow from there by devouring the animal. Or leaves it in a state of undying torment as it grows from it, forcing it to move around and spread its seed, keeping it barely alive.

>> No.26436583

Why do peopl suddenly like the idea of saying its bad to try and do some good deeds?

>> No.26436675

>There's no indication that eating the seed causes you to get mindraped, or develop mindraping powers.
>Or, if the seed will sprout inside the animal that ate it, and grow from there by devouring the animal. Or leaves it in a state of undying torment as it grows from it, forcing it to move around and spread its seed, keeping it barely alive.
Oh no, I was just thinking of animal-based seed transportation, like what happens in real life. Any animal that has potentially been near a Tree of Doubt has the chance to eat one of its fruits (which I'm imagining to have a mild, sweet/bland taste like dragonfruits) and then transport it to somewhere else, dumping the seed anywhere with people.

Oh god, the Seed of Doubt as a war weapon.

>> No.26436728

Because the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

It's not as though it's a new concept. No one goes around thinking of themselves as a villain, and yet bad things continue to happen.

>> No.26436801

I see, I forgot about animals spreading that thing around. And because the SoD can sprout anywhere, you can plant it near the enemy cities or even in their water supply and just watch them slowly die off.

Side note, that -10 to PP (personality something, I forgot)? It's cumulative per tree. And the average stat for that is around 80, if we're being generous. So you need around 10 seeds strategically planted to completely destroy some town by draining its people of willpower.

>> No.26436947

Well, it's 10 PP per foot of the tree per tree, so on average for each tree (assume just average rolls) it'll drain 50 PP from every human within 500 feet and live for 500 days, coming to maturity in 50 days.

You'll still want trees around for coverage, but a little less than ten should do well. It's kind of a shame about the maturation rate though, in that time you can just old fashioned burn that shit to the ground. Although, since it grows in any soil, you can always hide the trees a little easily, due to its rather short height.

>> No.26437023

Does it need sunlight? It doesn't need water, so maybe it doesn't even need sunlight. If so, you could just plant it in a basement somewhere and lock that place up, then leave quickly.

>> No.26437027

She didn't go crazy from trying to be a hero, she went crazy by making absolutely no attempt to win the heart of her boyfriend. She was the girl version of a nice guy.

>> No.26437115

The text didn't mention sunlight, so we'll have to assume it needs a moderate amount of sunlight.

The key here is to stick it on people's roofs, it seems like.

>> No.26437137

Come on man, if I was hit with an in-game moment where I was confronted by how terrible the things I was doing were, I would probably just laugh and keep doing them. Possibly even start doing them harder since I knew I could make fictional people suffer.
Seriously, don't bother with this shit unless you want players to feel the evil hardcore.

>> No.26437141

It just reaks of the "don't try, you'll just make it worse" message

>> No.26437164

Have you no empathy? Are you a sociopath?

>> No.26437243
File: 655 KB, 300x168, 1355985663578.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>caring about fake people
Come on son. Lets be real here.
Its fun as fuck to make the weak feel your power.
To your question a question: Is it rational to show empathy for beings that do not exist?

>> No.26437249

Technically she went crazy because power use and despair cause corruption, and corruption causes despair driving her into a death spiral.

Truly being meguca is a giant Ponzi scheme.

>> No.26437288
File: 135 KB, 722x1000, 1360891693973.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>no-one goes around thinking of themselves as a villain
Speak for yourself paladin.

>> No.26437402

Fucking quad-hitler.

>> No.26437422
File: 468 KB, 728x740, SundownerI1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>mfw op thinks players on /tg/ wouldn't enjoy causing suffering
>mfw I would laugh boisterously when I found out
>mfw op is a fag

>> No.26437447

I tend to let myself get immersed in a simulation, partly due to improve classes, so by habit the actions I do in game(for games that allow real choices) tend to be what I think of myself actually doing in that situation, which includes acting with a basic level of empathy

>> No.26437494

I did that when I was new to gaming, but eventually found fun in playing characters that are inherently different than me for the most part.
Not saying that playing yourself is a bad or rookie thing, just that I grew bored of it.

>> No.26437534
File: 175 KB, 500x375, tumblr_mhdavlLrrg1s3vej1o3_500.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Is it rational to show empathy for beings that do not exist?
Damnit man, there are more things in life than are covered in your logic and rationality.

>> No.26437544

Marche was completely right though.

>> No.26437579

>implying magic world wasn't better

>> No.26437602

That genuinely made me smile.
Thank you good sir.

>> No.26437629

Won't they notice its roots sticking out of their ceilings, though? Maybe it grows as a wine, so orchids and other such things are in order. It doesn't say that this thing grows tall, so it may as well crawl on the ground. Place it in a bush somewhere so its hidden from sight, and just let it grow from there.

>> No.26437668

I'm kind of surprised at the general dynamic of this thread, when one GM I know has never run a campaign that didn't pull this concept, and I run a few campaigns like this from time to time too.

The recipe is ludicrously simply. Give the party a credible threat that must be defeated for 'good' to prevail. Do not immediately inform them of how that threat might actually be defeated, or what and where exactly it is. Then, at some point early to mid campaign, give them access to some real power. But not the sort of power that can be used freely and with as much finesse as the players want. Something that is likely to cause immense collateral, or eat away their alignment with the 'good' of the setting (collateral is a much better option though). With this power, overcoming the fact that they still probably haven't figured out where and what the evil is, or how to beat it, should be achievable.

Now, sit back, watch them ruin everything with good intentions while you don't have to throw any further silly "save the babies or kill the bad guy" conundrums at them, and once they realise what they've become, just say YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS and play the game through to point where all characters are dead or no longer able to influence the setting meaningfully.

>> No.26437692

So yes, you are a sociopath. Please do not reproduce.

>> No.26437703

>Won't they notice its roots sticking out of their ceilings, though?
Pots, my dear anonymous!

>> No.26437708

Sociopathy isn't hereditary, and being a sociopath does not mean you'll raise sociopaths.

>> No.26437722

No he wasn't. He had literally no reason to return to the real world, and even if he did, there's no way it was worth the happiness of all his friends and the lives of all those people.

>> No.26437728

Most of the games I have been in involve characters who are soldiers or knights or characters with an ounce of common sense.
So all of our characters tend to acknowledge that what we did was terrible but necessary.
They gladly accept being labeled villains as long as the world/universe/all of creation is saved.

>> No.26437757

You on the other hand are a moralist and the true problem with the world these days.
Please kill yourself.

>> No.26437764

I can't imagine someone who is incapable of feeling empathy would be the kind of person you want raising children.

>> No.26437777

>being this much of a good guy
I am glad I never have to play with players like you.

>> No.26437789

>edgy tryhard faggot powerless in real life has to play out his sociopathic power fantasies in game
top kek, you're pathetic

>> No.26437793


>> No.26437799

>Your characters ruined and destroyed everything and killed hundreds of innocents.
That was secretly my character's goal all along. And now that I have the nuclear launch codes, I'll initiate a global apocalypse and my dark mission will be complete.

>> No.26437818

Cmon man, cant you just call him a faggot like the rest of us.

>> No.26437830

High-functioning sociopaths can fake it well enough. It won't be ideal, probably, but it won't be a hellhouse.

>> No.26437836

I don't give a shit about peoples morals. I just don't want sociopaths in a society.

>> No.26437848

I was under the impression that edgy tryhards were dark and brooding.
I prefer the gleeful violence option.

>> No.26437885

But anon, society is built for sociopaths.
They are the only ones that make something of themselves in this world.

>> No.26437889

Well now I just feel silly.
You could probably convince people to plant these things for good luck and protection against evil spirits, and have them take care of the SoD plants for you.

>> No.26437940

>having morals
>some how bad
Dude what?

>> No.26437999

I was only the first and last guy you quoted.
Having morals is good if you want to come across as a nice guy, but honestly they are useless if you want to get ahead in life. Its not that hard to fake empathy while always looking out for yourself, which is the most efficient way to go about things.

>> No.26438002

Some amoralfag samefagging. I gotta laugh at useless basement dwellers espousing amoral social darwinist nonsense when they're the very insects who'd first be trodden underfoot if standards of ethical behavior weren't there to keep people in check.

>> No.26438058

What about the lives of all the people that Ivalance overlapped, all those real people turned into villains and NPCs in a children's game? Are you saying they had no right to determine how they lived their lives?

>> No.26438110

That was a choice made by the book and yes it was amoral.
However, Marche is willingly destroying an entire world to get his world back.
Just because he is making it rather than the book doesn't make it suddenly okay.
Killing a world is still killing a world.

>> No.26438159


>> No.26438173

Maybe, but I'd prefer the secrecy route just because I have the gut feeling that SoDs would be semi-common knowledge. But then again, most likely not.

>> No.26438177


>> No.26438223


>> No.26438288
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>> No.26438340
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>yfw there is only one person posting in this thread

>> No.26438379

That was a choice made by the children, they just didn't know they were making it. Out of all of them, Marche was the only one who understood that they'd made a mistake.

Besides, it's not as though the people of Ivalice died. They still exist, in the forms they were in before their lives were warped by the wishes of four children who just wanted to run away from it all.

>> No.26438408

This is FATAL, if I remember correctly, most of the world is based on the Dark Ages and then turned more dark. And stupid.
So maybe they know about it from myths and stories, but nobody knows what those are or how they look like.

>> No.26438412

The hell is wrong with you? Do you really think your players would have fun doing this?

>> No.26438433

That's the thing that bothered me about marches choice though. He genuinely had no idea weather or not the people would survive until the end just before he remade his world.
He was marching his army without knowing weather he was destroying a world or not.
That lack of empathy bothers me in a protagonist.

>> No.26438497

>This is FATAL, if I remember correctly, most of the world is based on the Dark Ages and then turned more dark. And stupid.
Yeah, that slipped my mind a little, even now with internet and shit some stuff isn't so widespread common. Geez, this SoD just gets more awful, heh.

>> No.26439139


Does the game ever actually show people being worse off because of the world having changed? Because literally every person he met from the real world was happier with the world the way it was, and there was little actual misery.

>> No.26439468

I think it sounds interesting as well. I liked Spec Ops. Everyone's just buttmad because they don't get the point. You should make it choices though, OP, but choices you (because you personally know the players) are sure they will make. The problem with Spec Ops was that it was just the illusion of choice. You should always have a 'good' path, even if it's walking away and letting bad things happen.

>> No.26439629



>> No.26439722

I would love to play in a game like that so I can revel in the horror I create.
Such fun would be had.

>> No.26439757

That sounds pretentious as hell.
Could be fun though.

>> No.26439800

"Hey, you are bad people for playing the game I set up for you to play"

>> No.26439876


>> No.26440000


>> No.26440258

>That sounds pretentious as hell

sums up spec ops

You can't, a pen and paper RPG is a done with dice and sheets of paper, we know its not real

also while spec ops was set in a "real" world a game like D&D takes place in a world were you can punch gods and hang out with dudes made out of crystals while riding on a space whale

Ifs a FUCKING game you retard! Those arn't people they're made up for the sole purpose to be kill by you

You Spec Ops fans are the dumbest people on earth

>> No.26440296


>> No.26440419

You're a pretentious jackass, OP. If you're a great GM, or your players are similar pretentious jackasses to yourself, this could work very well. It's still utter wankery.

Who's going to shame 3deep5you affected twits for engaging the escapist fantasy that they're creative artistes creating real literature by playing tabletop RPGs?

>> No.26440952

If everything about a person - their name, their form, their memories - is changed, then it's the same as if that person died.

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