/tg/ - Traditional Games

Bump bump? No one know anything about this?

We had a Wulin general yesterday that was pretty good.

Unfortunately the pool of people who have tried this is smaller.

What do you want to play? What would you run?

>>26426643
Not sure just yet, as said I only just got it and am about 1/5th of the way through. I love the Wuxian genre of martial arts and when I found that there was a pnprpg for it I had to own it. I want to play and learn the system at the same time, and have plenty of concepts for characters
>>26426604
Really? DANG!

>>26426676
Give me one of those concepts Anon. Feed the thread.

>>26426687
Well I was reading through the disability and Joss part just before and thought that having an otherwise exceptionally intelligent and wise but otherwise lacking common sense and social tact smoke meat vendor. A boy who took over his father's business after he passed and vowed to spread the taste across the land. Obviously to do so he's had to learn some kungfu along the way, but it is an otherwise gentle person, even to the point of treating his enemies to a bowl of smoked pork balls after helping them to their feet.

It's still in forming stage

>>26426750
That boy is gonna earn some Enlightened Joss and chi quick.

Had an idea for Fat Chow. Always eating, Chow is often underestimated, but his father taught him the Foot of the Demon and woe be unto those who call him fat and don't mean rich.

>>26426824
That's the plan, As it is a first time character I wanted to stick with something relatively simple and easy to role play.

That sounds really funny, I could just imagine that it'd lead to all sorts of trouble if he was to overhear a bunch of youths whispering and laughing at his girth

Nim So was trying to live out of the secret world of Kung-Fu. His lover dead, his money gone, and his pride destroyed, a price on his head.

He lived as a beggar in the town of Liang. He was content to live out the punishment the Gods had bestowed upon him. But then the town hooligans had to harass Li Mao, the one person in town who was ever nice to him and shared her bread with him, his only friend, he could not stand by. He unleashed his Falling Mountain Style on the brigands. Now he must run again, and he could not leave Li Mao behind. The Falling Leaves Clan doesn't treat friends of people it hates well.

>>26426943
This is what I love about this genre, just reading that and I already want to hear more about this character.

OP, the good news is that from a mechanical perspective, Wulin is more or less perfect. There are one or two specific imbalanced kung fu techniques (Earth Chi Rejection comes to mind), aand the minions/lesser legends rules are kind of wonky in that a minion's/LL's Toughness doesn't actually do anything (and neither does the Damage of anyone attacking them), but the mechanical basis of the system is pretty much flawless.

Once you get through the book, pay attention to the section in the GM chapter on designing your own kung fu styles. Then homebrew a ton of stuff. One of the best ways to get a feel for how the system works is by trying to ccome up with balanced styles and techniques.

The other suggestion I will make is run test fights. Lots and lots of test fights. Start with just External kung fu and laughs at/fears, then slowly add in things like Internal kung fu and Secret Arts. The best way to learn the combat system is by actually using it, and it can be pretty daunting for new players if you use everything at once right from the get-go.

I strongly suggest keeping paper handy (or a google docs spreadsheet or something, if playing online) to keep track of things likke what conditions a person has active, what their Recovery values are, and suchlike. Also works well for keeping track of how many Ripples everyone's accumulated, how much chi everyone's got, what numbers are in whose River, etc.

>>26429483
OP here, Thanks for the input. I'll admit it is a daunting book but it's everything I've wanted in a pnp rpg, and now you've gone and told me that the thing I hoped most for (homebrew styles) is actually hashed out in the book I'm ecstatic to play/run this.

Would very much love to learn by playing, but it would seem that will never happen unless a kindly fa/tg/uy does so, and I can't count on that

>>26429483
>OP, the good news is that from a mechanical perspective, Wulin is more or less perfect
> Implying there are people who even know how to play this game.

>>26429948
Get a group of friends together and run some test fights. Wulin works really well for one-on-one fights, so all you actually really need is one more person.

Hell, I'd do it right now if I was more comfortable skyping with complete strangers.

>>26430039
Haha that'd be awesome but I'm at work for the next 5hrs and only have my smart phone so can't do, thanks for the kind-of-but-not-really offer though!

>>26429948
The book itself is pretty daunting, yes. The most important thing to do is to skip around the book as little as possible when you're trying to lear it. The book has a tendency of opening sections by explaining everything you need to know up front, and then referencing that for the rest of the section (for example, unless you read two or so specific pages near the beginning of the Loresheets section, you're not going to have any idea what the difference between Status 2 and Status 5 is supposed to be, or probably even the difference between Treasure and Fortune). The beginning of Loresheets and the beginning of Secret Arts are two sections I remember being incredibly important to understand before you keep reading their respective sections.

>>26429969
>Implying there aren't

>>26426604
>Unfortunately the pool of people who have tried this is smaller.
I still don't understand why LotW is not more popular on /tg/. Does /tg/ not love kung fu?

>>26426750
>>26426824
I suggest either a persistent Passion (Joy) Condition based around his love of food, or a Medical Hyperactivity sustained by eating pretty much constantly.

The Internal-External Technique for the Doctor's Art will actually let you create a Medical Condition FROM a Passion Condition, so he could literally have physiological superiority sustained by his gluttony and love of food (so long as he kept feeding his gluttony).

>>26430531
They're all hanging out in the Exalted thread.

>>26430531
This baffles me too...I would love to get a group of fa/tg/uys together for a LoTW session.

>>26430674
But LotW as a system works way better for Exalted than Exalted does.

I'm in the middle of converting it right now and it works beautifully.

>>26430716
Keep telling yourself that.

>>26430819
I'm sorry, are you implying that Exalted's system works? At all, let alone well?

>>26430829
> Oh boy, it's this argument again.
Exalted is the system that works best for Exalted. LotW is not High Action GURPS.

>>26430855
As much as I disagree with your opinion, it's probably best not to turn this thread into LotW vs. Exalted shitflinging. Can we all agree to cut this shit out?

So getting that out of the way and getting back to using Wulin to run Wulin, anyone got any stories/ideas/etc to share?

>>26431200
Space/cyborg martial arts.

>>26430531
Because it's not one of the Four Big Name Systems.

Shadowrun, Storyteller, DnD and 40k flavor of the week.

>>26430855
So what you're saying is that NOTHING can run Exalted without being a broken piece of shit?

>>26432061
Can we not do this?

>>26431956
That sounds entirely doable, but I'm curious as to how you did it. Details?

>>26432082
Yeah, I'd rather not have any more animosity toward LotW. Game needs more love.

>>26432133
Same.

Anyway I haven't actually ever had a chance to play either.

Is there some kind of LotW IRC channel we could use to discuss the game?

>>26429483
>Wulin is more or less perfect.
Not quite. It's a much better idea to up your Footwork and other means of avoiding damage than it is to up your Toughness. Also, that Internal Style that lets you add dice to Rippling rolls is overpowered, due to the exponential nature of the mechanics.

>>26433259
Footwork is very slightly better than Block which is better than Toughness in certain situations, though.

You can't just completely dump Toughness, though, because if something DOES get past your Block/Footwork, you're going to be feeling that one.

Likewise, going all Strike no Damage isn't a very good idea either, as your Rippling rolls aren't going to do much.

>>26433259
>Also, that Internal Style that lets you add dice to Rippling rolls is overpowered, due to the exponential nature of the mechanics.
Which technique is this? The post you quoted did mention a couple of techniques being imbalanced; he just claimed that the underlying system is sound.

>>26432703
Not that I know of, no.

>>26430680
Go ahead. Post a Skype.

>>26433903
We should probably get one of those up and running then. I'd do it myself but I'd have to immediately get OPs to someone else because I'm not online very much.

>>26434081
I could do it, I guess. Actually I've already got one that almost never gets used, but that's not on rizon.

I could make one on rizon?

>>26434264
Go for it.

>>26434304
Hmm. I'm having issues getting it registered, but there's a #wulin up on irc.rizon.net

>>26434081
OP here, great job keepin this thread alive gents

Skype is Rayner05

Hey, I've been working on a custom setting for Legends of the Wulin. Is it okay if I hijack the thread a bit to get some feedback on it? If it's not I'll start a new thread, but dont' wanna clutter /tg/ up to much.

To be constructive: How bad is corrupt chi? If I ever play I want to do a thousand venoms practicioner who isn't a member of hte vile rain cult, but I'm not sure how viable that is?

>>26434655
We're actually talking turkey in IRC right now. If you want I can walk you through how to access it.

>>26434704
Go ahead and post it.

>>26430855
>Exalted is the system that works best for Exalted.
Well that's depressing, since Exalted is an awful system for Exalted. Storyteller is an awful system for Exalted.


Oh but wait, we can use other systems that work much better, like Legends of the Wulin.

>>26434755

Cool. It's fairly long, so have a pastebin link instead of me taking up a good number of posts here.

http://pastebin.com/0Wr2Y8AW

>>26434773
Just give it rest. We don't want that thread and everyone except him agrees anyway.
>Can't help myself.

>>26434786
Line 17, you wrote "to" when you should have written "too", it's a minor mistake but it makes you look sloppy.
>for their stone was to tough, their metal to strong

>>26434773
And yet they're sticking to it for the new edition due out sometime this decade.

>>26434847

Duly fixed.

>>26434850
>sometime this decade
October, apparently, and yes, no one really likes the current writers.

>>26429483
>OP, the good news is that from a mechanical perspective, Wulin is more or less perfect.

This gets touted often, but the game is a complex clusterfuck with ridiculously complex combat.

It takes years to resolve a single fucking attack.

>>26434861
I'm expecting Q1 next year, myself, with the physical book dropping in Q4

>>26434786
Is this a My Little Pony setting?

/mlp/ please go.

>>26434898

No?

Why would you think that? Not everything involving a day/night or sun/moon dichotomy is based off of MLP, man. You're looking for ghosts that aren't there.

>>26433885
>Footwork is very slightly better than Block which is better than Toughness in certain situations, though.

Completely fucking wrong. Footwork is objectively better than Block. Footwork handles all of your mobility, AND all Energy attacks are best dodged.

Shit, even if someone's using a flexible weapon against you, it'd be better to just keep on pumping up your Footwork.

>You can't just completely dump Toughness, though, because if something DOES get past your Block/Footwork, you're going to be feeling that one.

Again, WRONG. The more you pump up your Footwork, the less valuable your Toughness is, because higher Footwork means you'll get less Rippling rolls against you to begin with. Every +5 that goes to your Toughness could've been better spent on a +5 to your Footwork instead.

>Likewise, going all Strike no Damage isn't a very good idea either, as your Rippling rolls aren't going to do much.

Again, WRONG WRONG WRONG. Raising strike is extremely effective because you can keep on stacking up more and more Ripples, which will do a better job than Damage ever will, especially on that post-battle Rippling Roll. Plus, Damage is worthless against minions and lesser legends.

The IRC room has decided to do some test fights tomorrow at 7pm EST.

>>26434786
I think it's an alright setting, it works and it doesn't look like a clusterfuck of disparate ideas.

>>26433885

Another issue of Legends of the Wulin I would like to point out is that external styles are very well-balanced against one another, but Secret Arts attacks grievously shatter that balance by rendering one's own Strike and Damage worthless and likewise making your target's Block, Footwork, and Toughness meaningless.

An unarmed Courtier with the Graceful Crane external style, the Removing Concepts internal style (which also snaps the skill roll system in twain) Quick Work, The Proper Forms of Conflict, and an Inspire specialty in Secret Arts attacks is a top-notch build with superlative offense, defense, defense-bypassing, *and* out-of-combat abilities. Trust me; I have played it myself, and it overshadowed other players' characters by a significant degree.

"Ah, but an enemy can always Disorient your Secret Arts attack skill!" you might say. To that, I say that any other combatant could have their Strike Disrupted just as easily.

>>26435118

Also, I loathe the fact that several external styles have very low-cost techniques that entirely shut down external styles that key off high initiative, such as Great Ultimate Dragon and Shadow Catching.

For the low, low cost of 2 or 3 Destiny/XP, you can abrogate an entire external style's techniques. This is completely fair and balanced.

Another grievance I have with the game is that Chi Conditions that impose a "stick"-based penalty affect player characters much more than NPCs. Sure, during the emperor's ball, you might impose a Major Emotional Chi Condition on an NPC with the Courtier's Arts, but will they really mind the penalty when... how often do GMs have NPCs roll for skills again? If the GM simply translates the effect into the narrative, then the Chi Condition on the NPC might as well have just forced the NPC into doing something.

>>26435282
>Shadow Catching
Don't you mean Murderous Shadows?

>>26434773
>Well that's depressing, since Exalted is an awful system for Exalted.
Agreed.
> Storyteller is an awful system for Exalted.
So true.
>Oh but wait, we can use other systems that work much better, like Legends of the Wulin.
You can use other systems, yeah, and it's true LotW is a more mechanically solid system than Exalted. But, for all its many faults, Exalted remains the best system for Exalted.

>>26435466
>But, for all its many faults, Exalted remains the best system for Exalted.

>>26435466
>>26435550
Can we not talk about exalted?

PLease?

Pretty please?

>>26435118

>An unarmed Courtier with the Graceful Crane external style, the Removing Concepts internal style (which also snaps the skill roll system in twain) Quick Work, The Proper Forms of Conflict, and an Inspire specialty in Secret Arts attacks is a top-notch build with superlative offense, defense, defense-bypassing, *and* out-of-combat abilities. Trust me; I have played it myself, and it overshadowed other players' characters by a significant degree.

I should also point out that I had played the character with the Legalism Loresheet and the Dispassion Tool.

I was being so aloof, uncaring, and unemotional towards my opponents that they were, quite literally, dropping dead (Heart-Breaking Words Technique) from obliterated confidence.

Since I am in ranting mode at the moment, I should also ask: is there any point at all to the Warrior's Arts when it is trivial to apply a Major Hyperactivity to oneself through the Doctor's, Courtier's, or Priest's Art that is relevant to combat? The book constantly drills into you, "The beauty of the Secret Arts is that they can assist you in everything you do!" Well, if that is the case, then how are the Warrior's Arts ever to be vindicated?

Yet another one of my grievances is the "individual XP" problem that is prevalent all over the system, particularly when Cultivation-based Chi Conditions appear. I believe that no characters in an RPG party should ever lag behind in character advancement.

>>26435361

Great Ultimate Dragon and Shadow Catching are grounded around having a higher initiative than your opponent and gaining bonuses from such. (Note that this is already a poor deal, given that the effective discount in techniques is a trifling 1 Destiny/XP.)

Then comes along Divine Pattern Long-Strokes, Graceful Crane, Murderous Shadows, and likely one style I am overlooking, all of which have low-cost, perfect, hard counters that automatically shut down those higher-initiative techniques.

>>26435561
Yeah, we're too busy proving that LotW is in fact a pile of broken, unplayable shit.

Does anyone have a link to the most up-to-date copy of the rules? Mine is an old copy, and it's got way too many oddities to be accurate.

>>26435587
I don't think that's the point that we're trying to make, I guess we're pointing out that the system isn't perfect?

But nobody said that it was so I'm not really sure what's happening.

>>26435639
>But nobody said that it was

>>26429483
>OP, the good news is that from a mechanical perspective, Wulin is more or less perfect.

>>26435710
TL;DR, play Qin: The Warring States instead.

>game has flaws
>IT'S AN UNPLAYABLE BROKEN PIECE OF SHIT

Yet another grievance: Various posters on this board say that Legends of the Wulin is unique in that battles have consequences. You might walk away from a battle with injuries you had not even noticed in the battle, or with a greatly changed mindset based on what you had witnessed. The same goes for your enemies: you can befriend an enemy by beating them up with your kung fu!

I applaud the designers for including this. However, the execution is questionable, namely due to the fact that in most cases, the Chi Conditions associated with such are trivial to recover from if you have remotely decent resistance skills. If you have someone with the relevant Secret Arts in the party for curing the condition (this is not unlikely at all), post-battle conditions are trivialized.

So, what actually happens is that you befriend an enemy by beating them up with your kung fu. Shortly afterwards, they snap out of it with their own Confidence (or, alternatively, get a thirty-second-long therapy session from a Courtier) and go, "What was I thinking liking that person?", right back to their old ways.

>>26435587

Actually, I hold Legends of the Wulin in high regard as a very well-balanced and finely-crafted game.

It is simply that it is an extremely rules-heavy and comprehensive game, and there are always bound to be plenty of examples.

>>26435781
>tolerating flaws in game design

Literally the cancer killing the hobby, this.

>>26435587
I'd prove that LotW was unplayable, but I'd have to divine how to play it first. Since I don't have a degree in astrology, quantum physics, and statistics, however, I can't.

>>26435816
People taking things to extremes is a cancer, yes.

>>26435816
yes, yes, if people keep buying "shit" then we'll keep getting "shit", ell oh ell

fuck off back to leddit.

>>26435807
>You might walk away from a battle with a greatly changed mindset based on what you had witnessed. The same goes for your enemies: you can befriend an enemy by beating them up with your kung fu!
Isn't that just what roleplaying is?

>>26435822
What didn't you get, and why?

>>26435917
It's likely he took the whole doctor's element thing as a necessary chapter with vital rules, rather than an awkwardly placed fluff chapter in the middle of the game rules.

>>26435822
>I'd prove that GURPS was unplayable, but I'd have to divine how to play it first. Since I don't have a degree in astrology, quantum physics, and statistics, however, I can't.

>>26436030
>I'd prove that Savage Worlds was unplayable, but I'd have to divine how to play it first. Since I don't have a degree in astrology, quantum physics, and statistics, however, I can't.

Let us see... what other grievances are there. Someone has already covered Strike vs. Damage, and Footwork vs. Block/Toughness (the long and short of it is that Strike and Footwork are the two best combat statistics the game), and my issues with Loresheets are more grounded in opinion than design flaws.

Ah, yes. One significant problem with the entire combat resource management system is the existence of Elemental Chi. It is a bit difficult for those unfamiliar with the system to grasp, but essentially, certain styles provide you with special "mana" that is cheaper to purchase, fortifies your character's "hit points" more efficient, and indirectly improves the effective amount of "mana" you regenerate each round.

What is the downside of Elemental Chi? You look more like a fantastical creature with bizarre skin colors, hair colors, animal features, or whatnot, or you gain an odd personality quirk. How dreadful.

There are techniques that specifically shut down Elemental Chi, but those are found in... surprise, surprise, internal styles that grant Elemental Chi to begin with. Furthermore, such techniques are entirely useless against Minions and Lesser Legends, two entire categories of enemies (the third being true, PC-level Legends), and against PC-level Legends who lack Elemental Chit to start with.

>>26435887

Legends of the Wulin makes an admirable effort to mechanically codify this. Unfortunately, due to the execution, the changes to body, mind, or soul are very fleeting and transient and can be ignored soon thereafter.

>>26435822
>>26436030
>>26436043
>ITT: If you don't know how to play a game, it is terrible.

>>26436079
So what DO you like about Wulin, then? You claim that you consider it a good game, yet all the flaws you point out all seem painfully damning and utterly ruinous.

>>26435710
More or less strongly implies it isn't.

>>26436030
I found it easier to understand GURPS: Space than I did LotW. And that book has a note saying "for those familiar with astrophysics".

>>26436043

>>I'd prove that Rock Paper Scissors was unplayable, but I'd have to divine how to play it first. Since I don't have a degree in astrology, quantum physics, and statistics, however, I can't.

>>26436171
Even "more or less" seems too strong, given what's been said here.

>>26436173
Again, WHAT did you find so hard to grasp about LotW? Details, son, details.

>>26436173
>GURPS: Space
>difficult to understand for anyone with a high school education
Seriously anon tell us what you found difficult about Legends of the Wulin. It is not a complicated system.

>>26436175
>I'd prove that Hopscotch was unplayable, but I'd have to divine how to play it first. Since I don't have a degree in astrology, quantum physics, and statistics, however, I can't.

Another one of my grievances with Legends of the Wulin is how mind-bogglingly complex attack resolution in combat is. It is too long to explain, but the combination of dividing up attack rolls into sets, the GM deciding if your attack is best dodged or best blocked, the GM deciding if your attack's description hits any laughs or fears, you activating any internal techniques, you checking if you have any Hyperactivities or Weaknesses that apply...

The opponent rolling to defend and then divvying up their rolls into sets, them choosing to block or dodge with each individual set, the GM deciding if their defense description hits any laughs or fears, them activating any internal techniques, them checking if they have any Hyperactivities or Weaknesses that apply...

It is more than a bit daunting, and that does not even cover what happens when you *do* hit an enemy (which can happen more than once per turn), which triggers yet another chain of rolls and modifier-checking.

Legends of the Wulin is one of the least beginner-friendly games on the market.

>>26436079
>Legends of the Wulin makes an admirable effort to mechanically codify this.
> admirable effort
> to mechanically codify roleplaying

>>26436119
> If a game designed to mimic the cliches of a wuxia movie are more complex than a game designed to mechanically simulate the formation and characteristics of an entire solar system, it is terrible.

>>26436175
LotW is like that RPS Variant with 30 different signs you can throw. And if you had to memorize them all.

>>26436221
Pretty much everything past the basic rolling mechanics, and even those are pretty murky, since they've got more jargon than a college textbook. Every explanation assumes you already know every other explanation. I'm pretty sure Chi Threshold made no sense, but I can't even find the damn rules, because even Fantasycraft has a better layout than this book.

>>26436361
>Wulin is a well-balanced and finely crafted game
>but here's a huge list of fatal balance issues and horrific design flaws that the entire thing festers with

>>26436387
So in other words, you can't read.

>>26436387
>LotW is like that RPS Variant with 30 different signs you can throw. And if you had to memorize them all.

That should be fine, I play Infinity.

>>26436361
>>26436387
>Another one of my grievances with Legends of the Wulin is how mind-bogglingly complex attack resolution in combat is. It is too long to explain, but the combination of dividing up attack rolls into sets, the GM deciding if your attack is best dodged or best blocked, the GM deciding if your attack's description hits any laughs or fears, you activating any internal techniques, you checking if you have any Hyperactivities or Weaknesses that apply...

>Pretty much everything past the basic rolling mechanics, and even those are pretty murky, since they've got more jargon than a college textbook. Every explanation assumes you already know every other explanation.
I'm going to agree with these two points. There's a lot to track, but worst of all, a lot of it is up in the air for the GM to determine. There are guidelines but the constant need to figure out Laughs and Fears slows down combat. Also, the game doesn't provide a quick reference sheet or anything like that, if I remember correctly.

Another one of my grievances with the system is how plenty of the internal styles have an exotic array of questionable design decisions swarming around them like locusts. Out of the 11 internals in total, these include:

- Heaven's Lightning is possibly the most powerful out-of-the-box internal style in the entire game. It uses Shock Energy Attacks, the most potent and crippling type of Energy Attack possible. It allows you to regain Elemental Chi more quickly. It can grant you bonuses that vastly outstrip those from any other internal style. Its capstone technique, Earth Chi Rejection (a.k.a. Indignation from the "Tales of" series), imposes the only encounter-long internal technique effect in the game, debuffing your enemy's survivability.

- Removing Concepts breaks the skill system in half. Right from character creation, you can sport a +10 bonus to all skills out of combat (this is an enormous bonus), increasing to +15 for Awareness and Wu Wei (the game's sense motive/magical senses skill). During combat, those skill bonuses can be transformed into fuel for Secret Arts attacks and defending against such.

- Fire Sutra is arguably the worst internal style in the game, filled with lackluster techniques and Burn Energy Attacks, the worst type of Energy Attacks. Its only saving grace is the fact that it has a hard counter against Heaven's Lightning.

- Unstained Lotus Mastery (based off Hokuto Shinken from Fist of the North Star) is quite good against true PC-level Legends, but is entirely useless against Minions and Lesser Legends, two entire categories of opponents.

- Jade Spirit Sword, the token "generic martial swordsman style," keys off Emotional Hyperactivities. Therefore, it works best in the hands of Courtiers, not Warriors. Incidentally, one of the setting's major factions, a generic "valiant warrior" organization, employs Jade Spirit Swords and gains bonuses to using it; Courtiers therefore make better members than Warriors in this warrior-themed faction.

This next grievance is minor, but it appalls me nevertheless. There is this technique called "Yin-Yang Technique," which can be purchased for the Courtier's Art and the Doctor's Art for 3 Destiny/XP, and for the Priest's Art for 1 Destiny/XP. This is a very, very low cost.

What does it do? Any time you have a Weakness Chi Condition applied to yourself, you can use Yin-Yang Technique to make a roll at a very manageable difficulty and create a copy of that Weakness, only flipped around and spun as a beneficial Hyperactivity yourself.

Unlike Paired Technique, the newly created Hyperactivity is *not* dependent on the Weakness, so you are free to immediately Soothe away the original Weakness. In other words, upon receiving a debilitating penalty, you can turn it into a helpful bonus and then remove the penalty.

Loaded up with Injury Conditions after a battle? With the Doctor's Art, you can Yin-Yang them all into Medical Hyperactivities, and then Soothe all of the Weaknesses. Imagine that: you are transforming all of your battle wounds into sources of mental and physical strength, and then removing those wounds so that there are no drawbacks whatsoever.

Did you just spot a Passion Weakness in someone, as a Courtier? Yin-Yang that right into an Inspiration Hyperactivity onto yourself.

Is a nasty Curse Weakness bothering you or someone else, as a Priest? Well, before you Soothe that into nothing, you can Yin-Yang it into an Influence Hyperactivity to buff yourself. For 1 Destiny.

Yin-Yang Technique costs the same as the similar Internal-External Technique, and is arguably superior because of how it requires the usage of only one Secret Art, as opposed to two characters working together for Internal-External or one character investing in two Secret Arts for Internal-External.

Plus, if you do have both Yin-Yang Technique and Internal-External Technique, you could combine both of them to turn a single Chi Condition into an amazing four Conditions. That is a bit much.

>>26437003
>>26437267

>>26436398
Still waiting for you to go into why you feel the game is, despite all this awful shit you've been on about, somehow not a complete pile of crap.

>>26437386
Not him, but for one, it still lets you emulate wuxia combat in a setting that feels conductive to wire-fu and martial arts. The book itself also nicely immerses you in that sort of world as you read it, if you ask me, but that doesn't exactly say anything about its mechanics.

I had alluded to this earlier, but there are no two ways around it: the Warrior's Art, and thus the Warrior archetype, is horrid.

Here is how the Warrior's Art works: you describe your character's fighting approach (*on top* of their external kung fu style and their internal kung fu style, making it fighting style-ception). Say, "my character is a furious barbarian who froths in rage and breaks everything other than their friends," or "my character is a craven assassin who slinks away in the shadows and/or makes themselves looks nonthreatening, then shanks his victims."

This manifests as a Battle Condition, a Hyperactivity that grants you bonuses whenever you describe your character fighting in a way that matches up with the approach. (This sounds simple, but then gets bogged down in minutiae concerning what happens when you encounter other Battle Conditions.)

Here is the problem: Courtiers, Doctors, and Priests find it trivial to hand out Hyperactivities to the entire party like candy. They can easily keep those fountains of bonuses active throughout the entire campaign, even with the limitations on Hyperactivities on a given character.

The book stresses that as long as you are acting in accordance with these Hyperactivities, you gain bonuses to whatever you do, so singing poems about how lovely that cute Courtier boy you met three weeks ago can and will give you bonuses in and out of combat.

Hyperactivities do not stack with one another. That means that if you are a Warrior and you have one from the party's Courtier, Doctor, or Priest, then it is not going to stack with your Battle Condition and you might as well have not been a Warrior in the first place. Further salt in the wound is the fact that Battle Conditions are for, well, battle, not the variety of noncombat scenarios other Hyperactivities would apply to.

The only way to rectify this is to have Battle Conditions also apply their bonuses out of battle, which is weird even by wuxia standards.

>>26437820
>wuxia system where warrior is the worst archetype

Absolutely disgusting.

>>26437950
>wuxia system where a warrior archetype exists at all
Reading through the book I felt like warriors were the only ones who were really supposed to do the fighting, and everyone else just sort of learned martial arts on the side.

Now I guess it's kind of the opposite of how I imagined it.

>>26438007
"Soldier" or "Thug" would be more adept, yes.

Still waiting on this guy to say what the hell he things balances out all this bullshit and makes Wulin, to use his words AGAIN, "a well-balanced and finely crafted game".

Well, almost all of the issues raised are questionable design decisions with the Secret Arts system, and are easily fixed by stripping out the offending techniques or bitchslapping your players if they try to put together things like the courtier combo mentioned above.

Earth Chi Rejection is easily fixable my changing it off of encounter-long. Fire Sutra is mostly fixable by fixing what Burn attacks do (in short, make them the Action Penalty version of Freeze attacks, much like Shocks are the Action Penalty version of Poison attacks). Get rid of that Removing Concepts tech and replace it with something else, or add in more skill-boosting techs as formless techniques if you want to fix it by going the other way.

Fix Yin-Yang by tying the new condition to the old condition like Paired Condition Technique. There are a lot of ULM techs that are useless against Minions and Lesser Legends, but a lot of them aren't (especially if you use a houserule to let Damage do something to Minions/LLs)

Attack resolution takes some getting used to, but runs really smoothly once you get used to it and does a great job replicating proper wuxia combat.

>>26438115
The Warrior's Art (as opposed to its Ex Arts) does fucking suck though and I still need to ask the designers what the hell the deal is there, because I get the feeling that I'm missing something instead of Warriors just being awful.

>>26438115
what about fixing the Warrior's Art? make its Battle Condition an exception to Hyperactivity stacking?

>>26438158
I'm sure the itention was that your Courtiers and Scholars did not spend their time being constant buff bots for the party, and that the Warrior was already ready for combat all the time.

>>26437820
>The only way to rectify this is to have Battle Conditions also apply their bonuses out of battle, which is weird even by wuxia standards.

Combat Approaches are both an approach to fighting and an approach to life. A warrior expresses his kung fu in all aspects of life. I see no issue with combat capability translating to out-of-combat capability.

Still doesn't explain why Major Hyperactivities costs an extra 5 Destiny while everyone else can make em from the get-go, though.

Making a character based on Sun Tzu: Sholar, Bone-fed Wolf Style. Having Trouble with Internal style.

Fox-Spirit Song sounds interesting
Heaven’s Lightning reminds me of one of his precepts "Have no strong points, because this means you have weak points"
Ice Sutra or Removing Concepts both seem plausible as "out maneuvering" opponents.

>>26438259
>Speed is the essence of war.
Give him the one that makes you run fast. I think that was Fox Spirit Song.

As for what's GOOD about the game, the system has a very steep initial learning curve, but once you get past that initial hurdle everything else is incredibly intuitive. The system itself is remarkably flexible, and can be used to model most any form of conflict, from straight-up fights, to debates, to life-or-death kung fu stand up comedy hour, to architectural competitions, to board games.

If it's something you can compete and achieve excellence in, wulin's combat resolution system can model it (though it may take a bit of fiddling first). The game system itself is very modular.

And it's very, very, very homebrew friendly, so if you don't like certain techniques within the published styles it's really easy to replace it with something you came up with (or just use your own styles entirely).

>>26438287
Nine Sun Birds, too.

>>26438287
Nine Sun Birds? Iron Body give you some too.

>>26438287
Fox Spirit Song makes you a tricky bastard and mostly involves fucking with the rolling mechanics (although it also has strike-substitution techniques like Removing Concepts, though in its favour you can't replace your Strike with your primary Secret Arts skill, so you have to spend points on Perform to get any use out of that rather than it being the best thing for every Priest ever).

How OP are the Legendary weapons and the Super Secret Kung Fu styles in the book?

>>26438442
They're pretty powerful. They're also part of how high-Rank opponents are supposed to be better than low-Rank opponents, since combat stat maximums don't scale with Rank the way skill maximums do.

You think Golden Sky Stories is a game with the risk of characters being asymmetrically rewarded, and one player being neglected by the others? GSS has nothing on Legends of the Wulin.

Character advancement is handled through two separate currencies: Destiny and Entanglement. Destiny is used to advance your character's personal prowess, skills, and kung fu. Entanglement augments your character's place in the world, including political power in organizations, recognition, resources, followers, and involvement of your favorite NPCs. There are ways to spend your Entanglement on improving your personal prowess and kung fu *anyway* (and those are often excellent purchases), because Legends of the Wulin is like that.

Another thing your character can acquire is Joss, a temporary resource that is essentially fate points from FATE, down to being used for bonuses and narratively editing scenes.

Now, your main (~98%) source of Entanglement is something called Deeds. Whenever you do something awesome, your GM picks one of the ten Virtues of the game, which you have points in anywhere from 1 to 5, and gives you Entanglement and Joss equal to your rating in the Virtue.

Each player can, once per session, hand out a Deed to another player. No, there is nothing stopping all of the players from handing out Deeds to a single other player. No, there is nothing stopping a player from being mean and granting a Deed and picking a Virtue the character has at only 1.

So, as far as Entanglement (prominence in the world) and Joss (fate points) are concerned, there is nothing ensuring that characters will have an equal flow of such in the first place, unless the entire group agrees to careful moderate themselves and artificially ensure that everyone is kept on an equal level.

By the way, the Entanglement you receive from Deeds? You do not get to spend them. Whoever handed it to you does, be it the GM or the other players. *You do not even get to control your character's own advancement.*

You think Golden Sky Stories is a game with the risk of characters being asymmetrically rewarded, and one player being neglected by the others? GSS has nothing on Legends of the Wulin.

Character advancement is handled through two separate currencies: Destiny and Entanglement. Destiny is used to advance your character's personal prowess, skills, and kung fu. Entanglement augments your character's place in the world, including political power in organizations, recognition, resources, followers, and involvement of your favorite NPCs. There are ways to spend your Entanglement on improving your personal prowess and kung fu *anyway* (and those are often excellent purchases), because Legends of the Wulin is like that.

Another thing your character can acquire is Joss, a temporary resource that is essentially fate points from FATE, down to being used for bonuses and narratively editing scenes.

Now, your main (~98%) source of Entanglement is something called Deeds. Whenever you do something awesome, your GM picks one of the ten Virtues of the game, which you have points in anywhere from 1 to 5, and gives you Entanglement and Joss equal to your rating in the Virtue.

Each player can, once per session, hand out a Deed to another player. No, there is nothing stopping all of the players from handing out Deeds to a single other player. No, there is nothing stopping a player from being mean, granting a Deed, and picking a Virtue the character has at only 1.

So, as far as Entanglement (prominence in the world) and Joss (fate points) are concerned, there is nothing ensuring that characters will have an equal flow of such in the first place, unless the entire group agrees to careful moderate themselves and artificially ensure that everyone is kept on an equal level.

By the way, the Entanglement you receive from Deeds? You do not get to spend them. Whoever handed it to you does, be it the GM or the other players. *You do not even get to control your own character's advancement.*

>>26438761
Yeah, no. This game is shit. Pure, utter shit. I fail to understand why it is as well liked on /tg/ as it has been.

>>26438761
>By the way, the Entanglement you receive from Deeds? You do not get to spend them. Whoever handed it to you does, be it the GM or the other players. *You do not even get to control your own character's advancement.*
You get to control the expenditure of your character's Destiny, which is where most of your advancement (and cultivation) is going to come from, unless the other players constantly give you new kung fu techniques, at which point why the fuck are you complaining?

Also you not choosing how you get Entangled in the world is actually one of the better parts of the game. Just don't play with dicks, and allow the group to veto any choice that they honestly believe would make the game less fun.

As far as what sort of Deed you just committed, that's up to you, based on which Virtue motivated that particular action. The GM (or another player) just goes "okay, yeah, that's worth a Deed" or "no, that's not worth a Deed".

>>26438761
>controlling your character advancement
Check your privilege D&D powergamer scum. The RPG is a communal storymaking experience and each character should evolve in a way that suits the story, not so that you catapult yourself to Kung Fu mastery as fast as possible.

>>26438802
Because the guy doing the ranting is mostly either wrong about the things he's ranting about, or is ranting about things that are absolutely trivial to fix.

Knowing /tg/ they'll take his word as gospel, though, and decide LotW is irredeemably shit for the rest of time.

>>26438761
This, I think, hits at why I dislike LotW as much as I do. It makes roleplaying into a mechanical system.

>>26438850
Get out.

>>26438868
Explain further.

>>26438872
It's attempting to model wuxia characters getting pulled into other people's problems and the unintended consequences of what they do. I don't see how it's appreciably different from, say, EotE's Obligations system.

>>26438879
You get out. What he said was totally right. Entanglement isn't even truly advancement as character development.

>>26438952
*as much as

>>26438952
"RPGS ARE COMMUNITY STORYTELLING BAAAW" is a fucking retarded attitude to have. There's ONE person telling the fucking story. ONE.

>>26438952
No, seriously, get the fuck out with your forgefaggotry. Now.

>>26438911
See:
>>26438115
>>26438331
>>26438844
I'm pretty sure he's also wrong about the end-of-combat conditions complaint too (as precedent, during the Doctor's Art section it mentions that when trying to heal an injury, the character rolls Hardiness and the Doctor rolls Medicine, and then they take the higher result - the Doctor doesn't just spam "Soothe Medical Condition" nonstop until he's completely fine - you could easily treat all end-of-combat conditions similarly - if you fell in love with that assassin during your last fight, your group's Courtier only gets to talk you out of it when you're already reconsidering it, and not constantly until he wins), but I'm not 100% certain. Even if it doesn't work that way, it's trivial to declare that it does now, if the way end-of-combat conditions function bothers you.

>>26438990
Then remove the ability for players to grant Deeds, and make it so that only the GM can do it.

Done. Fixed. Took two seconds.

>>26438990
That depends on the RPG. Ones like Tenra Bansha Zero and Nobilis are made for the whole party to make the story, for example.

>>26438868
This toes a bit close to "if it's easy to fix, it isn't broken!" for my liking.

>>26438761

So, things are looking fairly bleak on the Entanglement and Joss front, with the GM handing out Deeds on a whim, players handing out Deeds to each other, and players not getting to control their character's own advancement in the world.

It gets worse.

You can create a Chi Condition that grants you extra Cultivation (a strange subset of Destiny, used for improving your oh-so-very-important Chi pool and Chi Threshold). Yes, you can give yourself a buff that improves your character advancement for personal abilities, and not just with a small trickle either.

On the flipside, you can create a Chi Condition that *decreases* the amount of Cultivation you gain. Naturally, this is worthless against NPCs, and a source of indignation when applied upon PCs. "Congratulations, your character advancement for personal power has now been debilitated by a debuff."

>>26438844

Entanglement is just as important as Destiny when it comes to advancement. Players naturally like to have a say in how their character is impacting the world, rather than letting other people decide for them.

Let me quote the rulebook.

"Bright Snow is responsible for defeating and killing the dread assassin Centipede. For this she receives a Deed of Force. Her virtue of Force is 4, so she immediately gets four Chivalrous Joss and four points of Entanglement. The Sage (who awarded the Deed) spends it towards the Loresheet of the vicious assassin cult that Centipede belonged to."

What if the player would rather have the character earn some renown from the people that the dread assassin was terrorizing, respect in her organization of assassin-haters, or a mysterious scroll containing one of her organization's dark secrets hidden in her fallen foe's pocket?

Sure, they can ask the GM (or the other player that handed the deed), but that still puts the player in second priority. Why is the player not being given the right to decide how her character is advancing in the world in a narrative game?

>>26438761
>*You do not even get to control your own character's advancement.*

And were that exp spent on kung fu and trained skills, that would be a problem. Entanglement should represent the world reacting to you, which feels like it should be in GM hands since players don't know if suddenly some shit they buy completely obviates a plot you had going on.

>>26439040
Even then, one Deed per session per player is not going to make a mountain of difference. And always keep handy the "no, that's fucking retarded" response for when someone tries to spend somebody's Entanglement on complete bullshit. Don't spend that Entanglement until the whole group is cool with where it's going, if it's that much of a problem.

>>26438990
You're an idiot. pls go.

>>26438990
>>26439003
Why are you here?

>>26439065
>You can create a Chi Condition that grants you extra Cultivation (a strange subset of Destiny, used for improving your oh-so-very-important Chi pool and Chi Threshold). Yes, you can give yourself a buff that improves your character advancement for personal abilities, and not just with a small trickle either.
>On the flipside, you can create a Chi Condition that *decreases* the amount of Cultivation you gain. Naturally, this is worthless against NPCs, and a source of indignation when applied upon PCs. "Congratulations, your character advancement for personal power has now been debilitated by a debuff."
Then don't use Cultivation Conditions? There are a million other things Conditions can do.

>>26434956
>Footwork is objectively better than Block

In the game I run, I've had more block defenses thrown at players and NPCs though, even if it doesn't pull double duty. That may be just our descriptive style or my own GM bias though, and non-applicable to other games.

>>26439110
Ignore him, he's just one of those GMs who masturbates over any section in an RPG book that says something like "The GM is the final arbiter of all events in the story".

>>26439065
>Sure, they can ask the GM (or the other player that handed the deed), but that still puts the player in second priority. Why is the player not being given the right to decide how her character is advancing in the world in a narrative game?
Then do what >>26439094 said:
>Don't spend that Entanglement until the whole group is cool with where it's going, if it's that much of a problem.

Christ on a bike, guy, you're making mountains out of molehills like nobody's business here.

>>26439128

See
>>26439059

>>26438990
Then you should stop inviting people over to watch you write and just hang out a starbucks like a normal writer.

>>26439152
I actually am a firm believer in the "GM is god" philosophy. But, his statements are retarded.

I take that back. I've played games with retards who have said more intelligent things.

>>26438927

Wuxia *characters* get pulled into other people's problems.

I would like to think that the player should have a say in the narrative of how their character progresses in the world. Players can narratively make up how people are feeling with the Courtier's Art, what time of day and where the evil assassins will strike with the Scholar's Art, and make up the fact that there was a curse lingering over the city all along with the Priest's Art, all of which are highly narrative processes...

But getting to decide how a character is advancing in the world is right out?

>>26439014

I'm pretty sure he's also wrong about the end-of-combat conditions complaint too (as precedent, during the Doctor's Art section it mentions that when trying to heal an injury, the character rolls Hardiness and the Doctor rolls Medicine, and then they take the higher result - the Doctor doesn't just spam

Actually, that is referring to another rule entirely: the recovery rolls that characters are entitled to in order to eliminate Chi Conditions on themselves, which is *not* Soothing the Condition. Doctors can assist in these recovery rolls greatly, even replacing the patient's roll with the Doctor's own roll, but this is entirely separate from Soothing a Medical Condition or an Injury Condition.

>>26438844

>unless the other players constantly give you new kung fu techniques

Improving your kung fu with Entanglement is actually highly effective, considering that it also grants Cultivation, as clarified by the writers on RPG.net.

Unless you spend your Destiny on those at character creation, however, you are entirely at the mercy of the GM and the other players for deciding when your character finally gets to master their organization's kung fu secrets.

>>26439157
>>Sure, they can ask the GM (or the other player that handed the deed), but that still puts the player in second priority. Why is the player not being given the right to decide how her character is advancing in the world in a narrative game?
Alternately, decide that it's in-genre like >>26438927 did, and suck it up when your actions have unintended consequences.

Christ, where did that Exalted guy go? The whole fucking point of that game is "You can do it, but you may not like the consequences", and that gives you no say in the consequences whatsoever. Except now that those consequences are tied to a system of points, it's the devil?

Pretty much any game you ever play is going to end up with consequences you don't like for things you did.

If you still hate not being able to decide the exact circumstances of every consequence of every noteworthy thing you do (in which case you're kind of a pussy, but that's beside the point), change the rules so everyone decides where their own Entanglement goes. I think it'd make the game a hell of a lot more boring, though.

>>26439230
Actually, what he was responding too was even more retarded. Wanting to choose how your character advances isn't the fucking same as HURR POWERGAMING MIN-MAXER ASSHOLE.

>>26438927

Wuxia *characters* get pulled into other people's problems.

I would like to think that the player should have a say in the narrative of how their character progresses in the world. Players can narratively make up how people are feeling with the Courtier's Art, what time of day and where the evil assassins will strike with the Scholar's Art, and make up the fact that there was a curse lingering over the city all along with the Priest's Art, all of which are highly narrative processes...

But getting to decide how a character is advancing in the world is right out?

>>26439014

>I'm pretty sure he's also wrong about the end-of-combat conditions complaint too (as precedent, during the Doctor's Art section it mentions that when trying to heal an injury, the character rolls Hardiness and the Doctor rolls Medicine, and then they take the higher result - the Doctor doesn't just spam

Actually, that is referring to another rule entirely: the recovery rolls that characters are entitled to in order to eliminate Chi Conditions on themselves, which is *not* Soothing the Condition. Doctors can assist in these recovery rolls greatly, even replacing the patient's roll with the Doctor's own roll, but this is entirely separate from Soothing a Medical Condition or an Injury Condition.

>>26438844

>unless the other players constantly give you new kung fu techniques

Improving your kung fu with Entanglement is actually highly effective, considering that it also grants Cultivation, as clarified by the writers on RPG.net.

Unless you spend your Destiny on those at character creation, however, you are entirely at the mercy of the GM and the other players for deciding when your character finally gets to master their organization's kung fu secrets.

>>26439178
I don't think Cultivation Conditions are bad. Therefore, I don't see a need to "fix" what isn't broken. You don't want that cultivation penalty? Go along with the condition while searching out a Priest or something to get rid of the curse that's attempting to stifle the growth of your kung fu. It's fucking story fodder. Along the way you'll get Destiny and Deeds and, yes, Cultivation.

If it's still a problem and this doesn't appeal to you then yes, cut it out, but that doesn't mean it's inherently broken.

>>26439295
>Unless you spend your Destiny on those at character creation, however, you are entirely at the mercy of the GM and the other players for deciding when your character finally gets to master their organization's kung fu secrets.

Hideous. The only upside for such a system I can see is that it makes for an effective way to shun out That Guy.

>>26439295
>I would like to think that the player should have a say in the narrative of how their character progresses in the world. Players can narratively make up how people are feeling with the Courtier's Art, what time of day and where the evil assassins will strike with the Scholar's Art, and make up the fact that there was a curse lingering over the city all along with the Priest's Art, all of which are highly narrative processes...
>But getting to decide how a character is advancing in the world is right out?
THEN FIX IT.

Explain to your group that you don't like having no say where your Entanglement goes, and play with a group that gives you a say. The rest of us who like the Entanglement system as-is can keep playing with it as-is.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with tailoring the mechanics of a game to your group's tastes. The guy who wrote the Entanglement system isn't going to come to your house and pimpslap you for changing how you have Entanglement assigned.

This covers your last complaint as well.

>>26439049
Blood and Honour's example of gameplay begins with the GM forgetting he had to run a session so his players ran it instead.

>>26439270
It is when you only have 25% of your exp spent by the other players and your response is "This system is fucking stupid cause you can't spend your own exp!"

>>26439264
>The whole fucking point of that game is "You can do it, but you may not like the consequences", and that gives you no say in the consequences whatsoever
It also doesn't give the OTHER PLAYERS any say in the consequences either.

>>26439545
Blood and Honor was written by John Wick, I think we can safely say that if Wick's done it, it's a terrible thing for a GM to do.

>>26439545
That is actually one of the really neat things about the Entanglement system. If you completely up-end the way Entanglement is assigned, and have EVERY assignment of Entanglement decided jointly among the players?

The GM never has to work again on where the story is going, because the players have done it all for him (while he maintains veto power over anything stupid). Literally all he has to do is flesh out the game world.

This is fucking great when you have a GM who hates plotting, planning, and other forms of prepwork.

>>26439569
But see above--Entanglement is extremely important for advancement. And in any case, the statement before was a blanket condemnation of every system that gives players XP to spend as inherently powergaming, which is fucking idiotic.

>>26439295
>Unless you spend your Destiny on those at character creation, however, you are entirely at the mercy of the GM and the other players for deciding when your character finally gets to master their organization's kung fu secrets.

>At the mercy

Are you playing with people who just want to fuck with you? You have a say. "I think I should get points in Black Lotus Sect because I just killed one of their priests." or, "I'd like to Spread that Entanglement on 'top ten' cause I just beat number nine on that list.

>>26439651
You can *suggest*, but ultimately the points go where the giver wants them to go and you have to deal with it unless you choose to go with an alternate system of entanglement.

>>26439651
And then, if you're not playing with complete shitheads, they'll go "yeah okay that makes sense, your Entanglement's going there".

Seriously, just don't play with shitheads.

This is sage gaming advice in general.

>>26439636
No it didn't. It was specifically a counterpoint to the statement that this game, LotW, is not good because of the entanglement system.

Also, see>>26439651

>>26439631
It's not as good as it sounds; especially if you look at his reputation. Players can describe traits about other PCs. When explaining this, he describes "if I wouldn't get mad about players doing this to my NPCs in my game, why would I get mad about other players doing this to my PC in another game?"

>>26439699
If you're not playing with dicks, this isn't a problem. If you ARE playing with dicks, account for this by altering how Entanglement gets assigned.

If this STILL doesn't work because your group is FULL of dicks?

Find a better group, because playing with a group full of dicks was always going to suck.

>>26439699
And? What? Their gonna make you respond to a situation you wouldn't have put yourself in? Sound like a roleplaying game.

>>26439729
Read it again. It's a general statement, and a stupid one.

>>26439499

I think the point is that a game needs to stand on it's own merits. Someone walk asking about how the game is. You can't fix issues unless you know them.

He's doing an objective look at it, not a 'This is how everyone runs it' look at it.

>>26439752
Or they're going to intentionally gimp your ability to advance, in which case all you can do is as >>26439745 says.

>>26439710
Agreed. In fact its the only universal roleplaying advice short of "Don't be a shithead."

>>26439755
This. I've never seen so much Rule Zero Fallacy in a thread in a long-ass time.

>>26439741
Okay, John Wick is a shithead, yeah. I'm just saynig that switching Entanglement over to entirely player-granted (by the group, so one dick can't fuck everything over for everyone) is a godsend if you've got a GM who loves actually sitting down and running the game, but hates plotting the game out, which happens to me a lot, at least.

Admittedly on /tg/ most of us are of the "storyteller" bent and we've got tons of ideas for the future sitting in our heads, but sometimes we want to play instead of GM. And if the GM isn't of a similar bent, this sort of thing comes in handy.

>>26439769
What? Why would you play with assholes? I can't imagine someone doing that. Seriously, I can't even fathom the mindset of a player who would hinder the growth of his comrade. It's both mean-sopirited and counterintuitive.

>>26439790
Rule Zero Fallacy?

>>26439755
It's not a problem unless you're playing with shitheads to begin with, though.

>>26437003
>11 internal styles

>5 are poorly designed

Half the internal styles are poorly designed?

>>26439851
"If you can fix it, it ain't broken."

Doesn't necessarily apply here, because there's hardly consensus on whether it needs "fixing" to begin with.

It's more people suggesting a variety of options to suit different playstyles, but the people who are complaining about the game are conveniently ignoring the people saying they've got no problem with the system as-is.

>>26439857
Most of them have one or two techniques that need fixing, and are only broken in specific circumstances.

Jade Spirit Sword is fine, mechanically, it just happens to be better for Courtiers.

>>26439851

Rule Zero Fallacy is (iirc): Just because a GM can fix it, doesn't mean it isn't broken.

In this case 'Don't play with assholes' runs into it with 'Other people have control over some of your advancement'

>>26439851
The Rule Zero Fallacy: "If a game's problems can be fixed via houserules and gentlemen's agreements, then it doesn't really have any problems."

>>26439893
Unstained Lotus Mastery is ALSO fine, it's just specialized for killing important dudes instead of mooks.

Apparently this is a problem, to that poster. Even though your Externals can mop up mooks just fine, and so can the rest of your group (especially if they have any of the styles that specialize in mook-killing) while you go after the big scary guy.

>>26439874
But there's also elements some of those same people are agreeing are troublesome.

>>26439946
Yeah, I'm just trying to point out that it doesn't mean the game is shit, as that opinion seems to be spreading around after that one guy who "loves the game" unloaded a rant for half the thread about everything he hates about the game.

Who knows, maybe he'll come back and give us a detailed rant about how great Wulin is, as a counterpoint?

>>26439933
You can also just, you know, get a different fucking Internal style that's better for killing mooks and switch it up based on your situation. That works too.

I agree though that Burn needs a buff and so does the Warrior's Art.

>>26439933
>style that has 3/4ths of its abilities that work only on bosses
>good design

>>26440024
>what is specialization

>>26439988

I get the feeling that he does like it but the good things are 'I can explain this one large good thing in 3 lines as it's a core mechanic but each bad thing needs it's own talk because it's less core and obvious'

>>26440048
For insects.

>>26440024
Who said anything about 3/4ths?

And again, your Internal style is only one thing you're good at.

And AGAIN, if you're picking Unstained Lotus Mastery, it's BECAUSE you want to fuck up bosses.

Also considering how prevalent kung-fu duels are, you're going to be fighting named guys (i.e. this style's specialty) a lot.

And you can just start developing a second Internal style that's better at killing mooks, like >>26439999 said.

Would Sun Tzu be a Legalist?

The thing that bothers me the most out of the points raised are the styles that have really easy ways to completely stomp the entire gimmick of several styles, like Graceful Crane's Patient Crane technique utterly negating large portions of Grand Ultimate Dragon and Shadow Catching.

>>26439999
Well, a fix for Burn got suggested earlier on in the thread. Replace what it currently does with "Freeze attacks always cause an action penalty, but the for every five points of action it penalizes, it also closes off that number of River slots. For example, if you have a Minor Injury Condition caused by freezing and you incur the penalty, you get back 1 Chi less that round, but also one of your River slots can no longer be floated into or be used for flowing or flooding. The Burned person may choose which slot, but if there's a die stored there it's automatically washed way."

I'll have to get back to you on the Warrior's Art. May have to ask the designers if it's as bad as it looks.

>>26440155
Divine Pattern Long-Strokes, Graceful Crane, and Murderous Shadows all throw Great Ultimate Dragon Style and Shadow Catching into the shitter.

>>26440155
Yeah, honestly, dump the "deny enemies bonuses based on initiative" techs and replace them with something homebrewed. I get that Wulin likes its rock-paper-scissors counters, but hosing an entire style isn't fun.

Alternately, make the version with "deny enemies bonuses based on initiative" a variant only the PC with Graceful Crane/Divine Pattern Long Strokes/whatever has access to, while the "normal" version has a different techniques. That way he gets to feel awesome as he counters enemies with those styles without ever getting completely hosed for entire fights himself.

>>26440220
>Alternately, make the version with "deny enemies bonuses based on initiative" a variant only the PC with Graceful Crane/Divine Pattern Long Strokes/whatever has access to, while the "normal" version has a different techniques. That way he gets to feel awesome as he counters enemies with those styles without ever getting completely hosed for entire fights himself.
Note that if you do this, you should not let him fight another PC using GUD or Shadow Catching.

Well, it seems that most of the issues with the game can be solved with "don't play with shitheads". That's a relief.

Legends of the Wulin has its flaws and its things that I have grievances with (these are two separate categories). Legends of the Wulin will flay your mind initially with its learning curve and press upon your cranium with its formidable mechanical complexity. However, I like it in the end, and I believe that most people who take the time to get past its learning curve will enjoy it as well.

What are the things I do like about Legends of the Wulin?

1. I enjoy the way it tries to assist roleplaying and the group working together to craft a compelling story through mechanics such as Loresheets, Entanglements, and Chi Conditions. Make no mistake: Legends of the Wulin is a highly narrative game, and many of its components work together to encourage you to roleplay your character's highs and lows, strengths and weaknesses, and progression through the world.

2. The combat is mind-rendingly complex, but also highly tactical. The interactions between external styles, internal styles, laughs and fears, Chi expenditures, Chi Conditions, weapon types, and the River all make combat a highly tactical affair that one has to think through very carefully. A player must not only pick out dice sets and activate techniques properly, but narratively describe their attack in just the right way as well, so as to avoid laughs and Weaknesses, and hit fears and Hyperactivities.

3. I like how its combat system has you piece together your own special attack on the spot, loading it up with all kinds of debuffs, special effects, higher numbers, application of otherwise "noncombat" skills, and so on. For anyone who likes anime, manga, or video game series with a great emphasis on characters shouting out things like "SAVAGE WOLF FURY!" or "LIGHTNING TIGER BLADE!" as they unleash dazzling special attacks, this game is ideal.

>>26440712
>it seems that most of the issues with D&D 3.5 can be solved with "don't play with shitheads". That's a relief.

>>26440760
Yes, it's true.

>>26440735

4. I like that it does a good job of integrating mysticism into its world. Even though the setting is one of humans and nary a supernatural creature, all characters rely on the cosmic forces of Taoist five elements to work their skills, be it the martial prowess of a Warrior, the nigh-magical medicine of a Doctor, the sly words of a Courtier, the sagacious plans of a Scholar, or the otherworldly senses of a Priest.

5. The game can be adapted well outside of its setting of mythic China, making it a solid game for anything along the lines of wuxia or over-the-top action anime (such as most shounen). Translating it into a game all about wuxia-style martial arts in the modern day, for example, is trivial, and the writers of the game even have an Actual Play of this on RPG.net. It will take much more work to de-China-fy the game, especially given that the Secret Arts system has much of its Chinese flavor and mechanics run together, but it can still be done.

Now, this last one is merely my opinion.

6. I dislike games about down-to-earth heroes with limited capabilities. I greatly enjoy over-the-top, high-powered games. I like games wherein characters are making fifty-foot leaps, uppercutting opponents up the same distance, smashing down stone walls, performing medical miracles that would put Blackjack to shame, and making brilliant plans and predictions that Zhuge Liang would be proud of. Legends of the Wulin's mechanics are set up to allow you to do all of these and more.

>>26440735
>application of otherwise "noncombat" skills
This is one of my favourite things. If you can think up a description that Disrupts their Strike using your Politics, then you can absolutely do that.

Have I mentioned that there's a technique that lets you kung-fu fight using only your glorious beard?

bump

While not a grievance, I would like to point out that...

>Flying Red Silk

>Flexible, Swords

>This style is said to have been invented by an intelligent and graceful woman who adopted a philosophy of ‘minimal force’ in order to obtain the highest degrees of efficiency. With long silken sleeves, she dominated all opposition, beating hardness with softness, iron with lightness, and pressure with yielding power.

>Your attacks slither over your opposition, naturally finding the strengths and weaknesses, all the habits picked up over a life of hard work, and all the mistakes. Your movements are soft and gentle – some would say timid, but those people fail to understand your subtlety. This style is not commonly used with flails and chains but with lighter weapons like brushes, silken wires and, of course, long sleeves.

Legends of the Wulin is a game wherein you can play a warrior of a graceful, subtle, feminine style who wields a Massive + Sword weapon, a hundred-pound cleaver.

>>26442976
Funny as that is, I generally don't allow players to use mixed weapons that combine an allowed type with a disallowed type with a style. It was something that annoyed me in Exalted, too, all the oversized animu weapons flying about.

>>26443188
And all the anime weapons were actually canon and better than non-supersized ones.

One could argue that using a mixed weapon that has a disallowed type with a certain style is the entire purpose of a mixed weapon.

>>26443245
The way I see it, mixed weapons are more for ultimate synergy within a style. Like using a guan dao (spear/saber) with Storm God's Fury.

>>26443188
I would say they need to buy the privilege rather than banning outright.

>>26442976
While the example is funny, that Style was obviously meant for someone to wield Green Destiny.

>>26442976
And now I cant find it. Where does it tell you the cost to multi-weapon

Alright, here is Sen Su, warlord in the making.

Rank 4
Lake 7
River 2
Chi replenishment 2
Max Chi Aura 2
Max Skill Bonus +10

Archetype: Scholar - Breath with Learning

Secret Art of Prediction
Understanding the World

Tactics 2 Battlefield Analysis, Disruption
Inspire 1
Politics 1
Learning 1
Awareness 2
Confidense 1 Appear Steadfast
Ride 1 Dangerous Terrain

Benevolence 1
Ferocity 1
Force 5
Individualism 1
Honor 3
Obsession 4
Loyalty 4
Revenge 1
Righteousness 2
Ruthlessness 3

Kung Fu
Bone-fed Wolf
Circling Pack - Disrupt or disorient you impose is +10 difficulty to recover
Marching Towards Hell - Flood one die to Disorient on successful hit.
Nine Sun Birds
1 - Cry of the Golden Crow +5 speed
2 - Hou Yi's Arrows +10 to strike
3 - Lashing Strike Gain Secondary Strike

Weapon - Massive Saber - Zhanmadao - Emperor's Fury
Flood a die to cause rippling at 5 over defense.
Flood a die to ignore Armor.
Medium Armor

Combat Stats

Speed 0
Footwork 0
Strike +10
Damage +15
Block +5
Toughness +5


Loresheets
The Jiang Hu
The Wulin

bump

>>26444205
IIRC in the chargen area.

With what I like about Legends of the Wulin out of the way, let me return to another to another one of my grievances.

There are six main combat statistics in Legends of the Wulin:
Speed: Initiative.
Footwork: Can be used to defend against attacks, mobility.
Strike: Accuracy.
Damage: Damage for when you do land a solid hit. Useless against Minions and Lesser Legends.
Block: Can be used to defend against attacks.
Toughness: Subtracts from enemy's Damage, even into the negatives. Useless against Minions.

Each external style has 35 points distributed between each of these statistics, in multiples of 5. Plenty of external styles allow you to pay 5 Destiny to upgrade a certain statistic.

Now, here is where the problems come in.

Footwork and Block can both be used to defend against attacks, but some attacks are dictated by the GM as best blocked or best dodged. Choosing the "wrong" defense nets you a penalty, but under certain external styles, you are only really going to have one high.

If it is Footwork, congratulations: Footwork is objectively superior to Block because of how your mobility (which is fairly important for getting to enemies and moving across zones) keys off it, and how all Energy Attacks are always best dodged. There are no attacks in the game that are hard-coded as always best blocked.

Speaking of which, Footwork and Block are both substantially superior to Toughness. (Yes, Footwork is a god statistic.) You see, Toughness only ever applies against regular, physical attacks from true, PC-level Legends.

Toughness is entirely ineffective against Energy Attacks (including poison), Secret Arts Attacks, attacks from Minions and Lesser Legends, and that final Rippling roll (i.e. damage roll) you receive at the end of each combat. That is a lot of things it is meaningless against. Salt on the wound: Getting hit, no matter how high your Toughness, always leaves you a little hurting in the form of a single Ripple (i.e. damage), which is no small deal.

>>26446825

Footwork and Block, on the other hand, can be used to defend against everything under the sun, save for Secret Arts attacks. They save you from getting hit by physical attacks, Energy Attacks, and all sorts of debuffs. Yes, even debuffs that key off things like Inspire; you can dodge or parry someone's words, which is inconsistent with how you usually defend with Confidence against that. The less you get hit, the less Ripples you take, and the less you suffer from that post-battle Rippling roll.

In other words, it is much better to avoid getting hit than to endure it, and Toughness is of strictly secondary importance compared to, say, boosting Footwork into the sky.

Strike vs. Damage is another sticky subject. First of all, Damage does not apply against Minions and Lesser Legends, two entire categories of enemies, so only Strike matters against them.

Even against true, PC-level Legends, Strike is still more valuable. Whenever you hit an enemy (seldom something guaranteed), you always land a single Ripple, and Ripples are very important for whittling down your enemy.

Accumulating Ripples with a high Strike tends to be more effective than hoping that your Damage will carry through, particularly when all those Ripples you inflict will echo again at the end of the battle in the form of a post-combat Rippling roll that Damage and Toughness do not apply to.

Compounding this mess is the fact that Secret Arts attacks make your own Strike and Damage irrelevant, and your target's Footwork, Block, and Toughness meaningless. This is because Secret Arts attacks and defending against them are both entirely skill-based.

Suffice it to say, the combat statistics are shoddily balanced against one another. It hurts to see that the designers actually think them to be equal with one another, judging from the various costs for techniques.

>>26446825
Beginner-unfriendly, has a TON of imbalance in the statistics and styles, and a lot of other little weird bits that require that you can trust your group COMPLETELY in order to not get screwed over by them...this has really discouraged me from stepping into this game, I'm afraid. I'd planned to recommend it to some friends, too...

>>26446825

Also, yes, I would indeed like to point out that Energy Attacks bypass Toughness entirely. (The math for Energy Attacks already takes this into account; they have no Damage bonus.)

A stalwart and durable body is apparently meaningless against being shocked, frozen, or poisoned.

Just about the only combat statistic you can rely on as something that comes up all the time is Speed, which is probably the middle-of-the-pack of the six statistics as far as value is concerned. Given that it is nothing more than an initiative statistic, that is not saying much.

>>26446924

As I have said above, Legends of the Wulin will mercilessly destroy you with its arcane learning curve initially, but as you accustom yourself to its rules, you will find that everything works together to produce a highly narrative game with interesting, tactical combat.

There are plenty of imbalanced things about the game, but they are fairly minor, rather than something that will stand out to most players. It is certainly no D&D 3.5.

Sure, you might encounter experienced who build optimized characters like optimized Heaven's Lightning combat gods or Courtier Quick Work combat and out-of-combat gods. Yes, a neophyte player might accidentally stumble into a cool-looking trap option, like a Blossom Harvest (style that emphasizes high Damage and Toughness)/Fire Sutra Warrior with a Massive Weapon, an honorable fighter of the people with a massive flaming axe who gets screwed over by everything in the build being underpowered. However, these are just a few standout builds amongst many, and they are not *that* much more overpowered or underpowered than an average, run-of-the-mill build.

>>26446825

Also, yes, I would indeed like to point out that Energy Attacks bypass Toughness entirely. (The math for Energy Attacks already takes this into account; they have no Damage bonus.)

A stalwart and durable body is apparently meaningless against being shocked, frozen, or poisoned.

Just about the only combat statistic you can rely on as something that comes up all the time is Speed, which is probably the middle-of-the-pack of the six statistics as far as value is concerned. Given that it is nothing more than an initiative statistic, that is not saying much.

>>26446924

As I have said above, Legends of the Wulin will mercilessly destroy you with its arcane learning curve initially, but as you accustom yourself to its rules, you will find that everything works together to produce a highly narrative game with interesting, tactical combat.

There are plenty of imbalanced things about the game, but they are fairly minor, rather than something that will stand out to most players. It is certainly no D&D 3.5.

Sure, you might encounter experienced players who build optimized characters like optimized Heaven's Lightning combat gods or Courtier Quick Work combat and out-of-combat gods. Yes, a neophyte player might accidentally stumble into a cool-looking trap option, like a Blossom Harvest (style that emphasizes high Damage and Toughness)/Fire Sutra Warrior with a Massive Weapon, an honorable fighter of the common people with a massive flaming axe who gets screwed over by everything in the build being underpowered. However, these are just a few standout builds amongst many, and they are not *that* much more overpowered or underpowered than an average, run-of-the-mill build.

>>26447304
>However, these are just a few standout builds amongst many, and they are not *that* much more overpowered or underpowered than an average, run-of-the-mill build.

Even in the case of the guy who ended up emphasizing all the wrong things?

>>26447304
Have you ever Contacted the Devs about these issues? Maybe you can have a hand in making sure that Legends of the Wulin 2.0 is a better game.

>>26447338

I would say so, yes.

That Blossom Harvest (style that emphasizes high Damage and Toughness)/Fire Sutra Warrior with a Massive Weapon may very well be one of the worst possible builds in the game, but the character can still pull some weight in combat when they do land a solid hit.

Think of Heaven's Lightning combat gods and Courtier Quick Work combat and out-of-combat gods as the equivalent of D&D 4e's fighters, rangers, and warlords in a paragon-tier game; and that horrid Blossom Harvest character as the equivalent of a druid (sentinel), a warlock (binder), or a seeker. There are clear differences in their capabilities, but the gap is not particularly wide.

>>26447380

I do not believe I will be heard out, particularly when various posters on RPG.net already bring up many of these issues only to have them handwaved away.

>>26447380
>Legends of the Wulin 2e
Hah, yeah, like that's ever going to happen.

>>26447449
The've made three editions of Nobilis.

Touhoufag is that you?

>>26447304
>game where toughness does nothing against poison

Disgusting.

How come nobody brought up these weak points in /tg/ threads before?

In before
>but they're not weak points

>>26447413
Link to issues being brought up and handwaved away?

>>26448370
They have been brought up before. Anon here vastly overstates the issue, for most people.

OP here, holy shit this thread....

I will say though I've learnt a lot from this thread in terms of what to keep an eye out for when reading.

Thanks for keep this thread alive guys, could someone archive so I can copy and paste some of the key points from this thread when I get home?

>>26448786
https://archive.foolz.us/tg/thread/26425632

It's automatic, mate.

>>26433894
Unstained Lotus Mastery. The writer simply forgot how valuable a single extra Rippling die is.

>>26446924
Yeah no, none of these issues are remotely as bad as he's saying. None of these are anything like a 3.5 player going "Hey, this Druid thing looks cool - oh hey, Natural Spell feat! Now I can cast and be a bear at the same time! ...Why is my animal companion a better Fighter than the party Fighter?"

These are all very minor issues that he's gone into in excruciating detail. You can assume anything he hasn't mentioned works perfectly.

>>26443188
>Funny as that is, I generally don't allow players to use mixed weapons that combine an allowed type with a disallowed type with a style.
The point of combining weapons is to combine an allowed type with a disallowed type (so that, hopefully, between the two, you have an allowed type for each External style you have). That's why it costs extra XP to get one.

>>26447304
>Just about the only combat statistic you can rely on as something that comes up all the time is Speed, which is probably the middle-of-the-pack of the six statistics as far as value is concerned. Given that it is nothing more than an initiative statistic, that is not saying much.
Except Initiative is preposterously useful. Have you not been making proper use of Waves? Even the "fuck your high Initiative" styles only affect the kung fu technique bonuses to having high Initiative - you're still free to devote puny sets to Waves and then complete them with impunity. Ranged Weapon + High Speed + Cover Ground = enjoy never being hit. Zoning is important.

>>26447304
>However, these are just a few standout builds amongst many, and they are not *that* much more overpowered or underpowered than an average, run-of-the-mill build.
...You probably should have said this in the first place, guy. You're making it sound like taking anything suboptimal with inevitably completely fuck you over, instead of "your guy will be slightly worse".

>>26447413
>only to have them handwaved away.
I don't remember this happening. The guy who wrote the kung fu system has built entire new systems to address play4er complaints. They seem pretty friendly to feedback.

>>26448370
>How come nobody brought up these weak points in /tg/ threads before?
Because, as anon has finally gotten around to saying, these are very minor issues, and even if you're a guy who focused on all the wrong things and you're fighting alongside a guy who focused on all the right things, you're not going to be much worse off than he is. And even then the gap can be closed with proper tactical thinking and good use of description. This is not D&D 3.5, where your build determines everything you can do.

>>26446924
>Beginner-unfriendly
True. Just keep doing test fights and you'll get the hang of it though.
>Has a TON of imbalance in the statistics and styles
Untrue. The guy doing the ranting has completely failed to mention that most of your bonuses come from tactical activation of your internal kung fu and from how you describe things. If you're a Warrior with a Combat Approach, using Blossom Harvest and a Massive weapon (so you've got a total of +5 to Strike, which is immensely puny), and you're fighting a guy with +20 to Footwork (the most you can get in the best defensive style in the game), and you describe your attack in such a way that it is in keeping with your Combat Approach, it includes what your style Laughs At, and what his style Fears, your Strike now matches his defense value. And that's without even activating any internal techniques, or picking up any Loresheet synergy between your Internal and External. The gap between best and worst, as eventually mentioned, is quite small.
>and a lot of other little weird bits that require that you can trust your group COMPLETELY in order to not get screwed over by them
This is one specific thing: the Entanglement system. For one thing, no, your group is likely to give you what you want, for a number of reasons: The thing your Entanglement gets spent on has to actually relate to the Deed you performed and be a logical consequence of it. If you performed a Ruthlessness Deed to steal the Vile Rain Cult's secret kung fu manual, that Deed is going to go toward new kung fu techniques, which is exactly what you want, which is why you performed that Deed in the first place.

Anon ALSO failed to mention that if you absolutely, desperately want a particular Loresheet option that your GM and group REFUSES to give you through Entanglement, you can just buy it with Destiny (which you choose where it's spent). Entanglement is literally bonus XP that you get on top of your regular XP.

>>26450211
>Entanglement is literally bonus XP that you get on top of your regular XP.
Yes, you don't get to pick where this bonus XP goes, but it's a fucking bonus. You still get to pick where all your regular XP goes.

Finally, your group is likely to spend your Entanglement on shit you want anyway, since you being better at the things you want to be better at benefits the group as a whole. They literally have to hate you enough to be willing to fuck over the entire group and their own performance if they're going to spend your Entanglement on bullshit, and if you're playing with someone who's that much of a spiteful asshole you're not going to have fun even if Entanglement being spent by other people wasn't a thing. Why the fuck are you even playing with this guy?

>>26450211
Can't the heavily optimized character also get bonuses from good description, though? In theory, if everyone plays to the best of their ability, bonuses that anyone can get will never close a gap, since it applies equally to both the best and worst.

>>26449986
Not only are the balance issues minor, but you probably won't even notice them because honestly, the combat this game models is FUN AS FUCK. It's ridiculously good at modelling the preposterous high-flying wuxia action that it's built to do. You honestly probably will not notice that your guy is slightly worse than this other guy because you're still doing tons of awesome shit and having lots of fun doing it.

This also means that the combat system taking some getting used to is not nearly as bad as it sounds either. You're gonna have to do a bunch of test fights to get the hang of it, but it's not gonna feel like work. You're going to be learning the system flying around doing crazy bullshit and punching people through walls and shit and shooting lightning out of your hands.

It's basically impossible to make a useless character in wulin, and with so much of the combat stuff being based on clever tactics and evocative description, the only way you can suck is by literally not giving a shit.

So the people who are more engaged in the fight are going to do more cool shit and kick more ass. I honestly don't see anything wrong with this.

>>26450261
That's part of the tactics of the game. Work your stuff in such a way that they can't plausibly get their bonus.

For example, the ridiculously powerful Courtier mentioned earlier in the thread: Yes, you could just Disorient his Inspire, or you could shove your spear through his larynx. Now his vocal cords are severed, and good luck speaking your poisoned, Confidence-destroying words like that.

Most of the tactics of the game consist of setting up circumstances so as to benefit from your bonuses and exploit your enemy's weaknesses, while preventing him from doing the same. Cleverness and quick thinking trumps the numbers on your sheets.

>>26450335
>Work your stuff in such a way that they can't plausibly get their bonus.
For example: fighting a guy that's using Eight Legends? His bonuses are entirely dependent on what sort of weapon you're using. Drop your Staff and whip out a chain, or a set of needles, or something else unorthodox that his style doesn't know how to deal with. Now he can't get his bonus.

>>26450382
>>26450335
>>26450304
>those descriptions

Goddamn the more I read this thread, the more I'm dying to test it.

OP by the way, is there another scheduled fight? I couldn't make the last one as I had work.

>>26450597
The only test fight mentioned in this thread is in about six hours.

We're going to be splitting em up though, as we've got a bunch of people and wulin tests best as one-on-one fights until you get the hang of the system. Just need to make sure people who know the system are around to answer questions and stuff, and you can do it whenever.

>>26436079
>cheaper to purchase
Elemental chi is more expensive to acquire though. It takes 5 times the Elemental chi rating to get a new point of E chi, while it only takes one times the normal chi rating to get normal chi.

It's cheaper to get the first three points of E chi, but four onwards is more expensive.

>>26450783
Yup, elemental chi is incredibly front-loaded. The guy doing all the rants in this thread has only done a few short games, so it's not surprising he's seen the thing that are really powerful in the early game and decided they're unbalanced.

Basically if you're going to go nuts on Elemental Chi, you need to get up to three points in that element, and then switch to another element, and then keep doing that. Except for the fact that opposing elements double (and then triple, if you've got two opposing elements) the cost of E. chi, which makes it prohibitively expensive. So you have to pick a very specific combination of elements for it to work at all.

Honestly I'd just suggest playing the game. None of the issues raised make playing it any less fun.

>>26438007
It's wuxia, everyone solves everything by fighting. Warriors are just people who are totally dedicated to fighting.

The precursor to LotW, Weapon of the Gods, had Warrior as the only people able to start the game with Uncommon (more powerful) martial arts, which meant Warriors had a substantial head start over others. WotG didn't have as much of a focus on Chi conditions either.

>>26451271
One of the issues is that figuring out how to play the game is a hilariously insurmountable task.

>>26451885
Insurmountable, you say? Everyone I know who plays the game figured it out on their own.

It's not as bad as it looks. You just have to read very carefully, since most things only get explained once.

>>26448483
>>26449886
>>26449944
>>26450211
>>26450304
>>26450335
Legends of the Wulin defense force please go.

>>26449944

I never said that initiative was not useful. It is just that, unless you are abusing Secret Arts attacks, Strike is handling the highly important job of ensuring that you *actually hit* and inflict ripples upon virtually any type of enemy. Footwork covers your mobility and is a way to defend against your attacks, which prevents you from getting hit and as well as from having your statistics debuffed; nobody likes getting hit or having statistics debuffed. So, those are two very solid statistics.

Block is Footwork with one less application, making it a tad less worthwhile. Speed is also good, as you say, but I would not put it up there with Strike and Footwork, particularly when Waves are not going to be used all the time, but attacks and defenses *will*.

Damage and Toughness are something I put at the bottom of my priorities because, yes, while they can save you or devastate an enemy, they are outclassed by Strike and Footwork/Block respectively. They are also useless against entire categories of enemies, which is a major mark against them.

(The timing of Damage-boosting internal techniques is also fairly sketchy. It is rather unclear whether or not you can activate them after landing a hit.)

In other words, I would likely group them as Strike and Footwork > Block and Speed > Damage and Toughness.

Also, I do not hold kiting or "all defense, low offense" tactics in very high regard because RPGs are group game.,They naturally lend themselves to group battles even in kung fu land (because who enjoys having to sit out 75% of the battles in a game). If you make yourself no longer a viable target, unless your allies are likewise engaging in kiting or high-defense tactics, all you have done is saved yourself for last.

Furthermore, even if you do kite, you are going to need decent Footwork for the sake of overcoming terrain (unless you want to burn Chi), leading back to Footwork being up there with Strike.

>>26454060
>People aren't allowed to like a game in a thread about that game!

>>26449913
But then you get dumb shit like a Flying Red Silk stylist with Gatsu's sword, and that breaks muh immersion.

>>26449957

I never once said that taking suboptimal choices will "inevitably completely fuck you over."

I could use the exact same wording when speaking of, say, 4e fighters, rangers, and warlords by the paragon tier vs. druids (sentinel), seekers, warlocks (binder).

I simply dislike it when analysis shows that some choices are not quite as good as all. It does not ruin the game in the case of Legends of the Wulin, not by any stretch of the imagination, but it is still reason enough for me to vent.

>>26449986

>And even then the gap can be closed with proper tactical thinking and good use of description. This is not D&D 3.5, where your build determines everything you can do.

This is fallacious reasoning. If there is a gap in effectiveness from character sheets alone, the gap can *never* be closed. Nothing prevents the, say, Heaven's Lightning-user from using as much tactics and description as the Blossom Harvest/Fire Sutra Warrior.

>>26450211

>most of your bonuses come from tactical activation of your internal kung fu

There is part of the rub: choosing your internal style is another process laden with overpowered options and underpowered ones, as we can see from the divide between, say, Heaven's Lightning and Fire Sutra.

>and from how you describe things

Again, nothing stops the character with the more robust and versatile build from describing things as well.

>you describe your attack in such a way that it is in keeping with your Combat Approach, it includes what your style Laughs At, and what his style Fears, your Strike now matches his defense value.

That is all well and dandy, but the defender receives their opportunity to describe a defense along with their laughs and fears as well. It would be incorrect to say that only players of underpowered builds are entitled to make use of tactics and narrative descriptions.

>>26454874
Why do you always play little kids in games, BTW?

>>26454914
IS that Touhoufag?

That explains the autistic rants about everything he hates about a game he professes to love, heedless of the fact that he's turning other people off the game entirely.

>>26454938
It's very likely, the strain of posting is the same and he's been posting like on LotW for a long time.

He's mostly right, though, he just makes it sound like it's an extreme issue. It's also very difficult for him not to optimise in a game.

He used to be a really cool guy, still is in some ways when it comes to game design.

>>26450211

>The thing your Entanglement gets spent on has to actually relate to the Deed you performed and be a logical consequence of it. If you performed a Ruthlessness Deed to steal the Vile Rain Cult's secret kung fu manual, that Deed is going to go toward new kung fu techniques

Or they could say that the act only gained you enemies, and delay your progress towards attaining the kung fu techniques you actually want under the justification that you need more time to study it, perhaps because they sincerely think it would be more interesting that way.

If a mechanic can cause trouble with a group that does not share a 100% common frequency (this does not even say that the other players are intentionally out to get you; it is fully possible for other players to accidentally deprive you of what you want), then why even take that risk? What does the mechanic add to the game?

>Anon ALSO failed to mention that if you absolutely, desperately want a particular Loresheet option that your GM and group REFUSES to give you through Entanglement, you can just buy it with Destiny (which you choose where it's spent). Entanglement is literally bonus XP that you get on top of your regular XP.

Purchasing Loresheets directly with Destiny tends to be a terrible option, given that it stunts your character's highly important personal progression.

>>26454970
Yeah, I honestly don't take issue with him pointing out the imbalances. I just take issue with the fact that he's making the game look like shit to other people when these are really minor issues at best.

He's mentioned it a couple of times, to his credit, but it's drowned out by the pages upon pages upon pages of complaining.

>>26454983
>If a mechanic can cause trouble with a group that does not share a 100% common frequency (this does not even say that the other players are intentionally out to get you; it is fully possible for other players to accidentally deprive you of what you want), then why even take that risk? What does the mechanic add to the game?
I'm sorry, but do you play with actual other human beings?

>>26454990
He's a touhou fag, what do you expect but the highest levels of autism and angst?

>>26454990
Well are you going to answer any of his points or bitch about his tone?

>>26454983
>Or they could say that the act only gained you enemies, and delay your progress towards attaining the kung fu techniques you actually want under the justification that you need more time to study it, perhaps because they sincerely think it would be more interesting that way.
Why are you playing with other people who keep buying you shitty things you don't want?

Do your fellow players hate you?

>then why even take that risk? What does the mechanic add to the game?
It's giving up a bit of narrative control so that you can end up with the story going to interesting places it otherwise wouldn't have gone, based on other people having (hopefully good) ideas for where to take the story. Wulin already gives players a ton of narrative control; trusting your fellow players' judgment when it comes to Entanglement is an entirely acceptable risk.

It's also, as an earlier anon mentioned, meant to pull you and your character out of their comfort zone as they get embroiled in stuff they may not have known about or wanted a part of, but still have to deal with anyway because such is life in the jiang hu. Taking options your characters don't like but are always exactly what you as a player want undermines this theme, and if LotW is anything, it's an attempt at faithful recreation of the genre.

If you're not playing with shitheads, everyone is there to have a good time and play through a fun story, so there's nothing to worry about. You'll end up going places you never knew you wanted to.

>>26455077

>Why are you playing with other people who keep buying you shitty things you don't want?
>Do your fellow players hate you?

As I had mentioned in the post you are quoting, it is entirely possible for others to, misguidedly stand by options that you do not actually want, under the sincere assumption that it would be more interesting.

Why take that risk when it can be avoided entirely by, "The player proposes what the Entanglement goes towards; the other player or the GM then approves or suggests a different purchase. The player can also choose to leave the decision to the group." Would that have been so difficult a rule to even highlight as a possible alternative?

This is not the only possible form of players inadvertently hindering what you want out of your character. Consider the natural amount of imbalanced Entanglement and Joss acquisition that arise when players simply hand Deeds to one another without a deliberate plan to ensure that everyone receives an equal amount in the end.

>It's giving up a bit of narrative control so that you can end up with the story going to interesting places it otherwise wouldn't have gone, based on other people having (hopefully good) ideas for where to take the story. Wulin already gives players a ton of narrative control; trusting your fellow players' judgment when it comes to Entanglement is an entirely acceptable risk.

It is a tad incongruous for the system to imply that a player can be trusted to "metagame" and rewrite the narrative to their desires using Joss, Secret Arts, and certain Loresheet benefits, but cannot be trusted to spend Entanglement in a way that takes the character to interesting places.

>It's also, as an earlier anon mentioned, meant to pull you and your character out of their comfort zone

Why is the player not the one entitled to decide the direction in which their character goes? If they want something entirely unexpected, then they can leave the decision up to the group. Nothing is lost.

>>26455351
Do you get to decide everything that happens to you in your life? Is everything that happens to you always under your control? If it's not so for you, why should it be for your character?

>>26455351
>It is a tad incongruous for the system to imply that a player can be trusted to "metagame" and rewrite the narrative to their desires using Joss, Secret Arts, and certain Loresheet benefits, but cannot be trusted to spend Entanglement in a way that takes the character to interesting places.
If you already have the options of Joss, Secret Arts, and Loresheets, why do you so desperately need control of Entanglement expenditure on top of that?

>>26455391
This. Destiny is for things you decide to do. Entanglement is for things that happen to you. Keeping the character entirely on the puppet strings of the player, including all the consequences of his actions, undermines this.

You're missing the point, guy. Either that or you get the point and just don't like the decision they went with, but just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad. Other people in this thread clearly think it's good.

>>26455351
>It is a tad incongruous for the system to imply that a player can be trusted to "metagame" and rewrite the narrative to their desires using Joss, Secret Arts, and certain Loresheet benefits, but cannot be trusted to spend Entanglement in a way that takes the character to interesting places.
When the hell did I say this? You already have a ton of control. Why is it so blasphemous that some control is given over to other people in the group?

>>26455391

The character does not.

The player, on the other hand? Given that this is a narrative game, I would say that the player should have a strong say in deciding the direction that character's life takes, whether that is "I think I would like for my character to go down this road," or, "Surprise me, GM."

In fact, it takes workload off the GM when the players do their share of figuring out the highs and lows befalling a character.

This is a highly narrative philosophy, and Legends of the Wulin is a highly narrative game. I fail to see why they would be incompatible.

>>26455416

There is no need to be inconsistent about the amount of narrative control a player gets to exercise. Even if a player is entitled to make Entanglement purchases for themselves, the vast majority of *what* befalls them is still in the hands of the GM, who decides *how* it plays out.

>>26455496
Then talk with your GM and see if he's amenable to allowing player suggestions. Most, I find, ARE.

>>26455496
Most players, left to their own devices, would never allow anything bad to happen to their own character. It's the lesser of two evils.

>>26455482
Because he's obsessed with optimization and someone else deciding where entanglement gets spent could make his character less optimal.

>>26455557
I'm certainly getting this feeling, yes.

>>26455524
This. You've been given a ton of suggested alternatives. That doesn't mean one of those alternatives needs to be the default and the game is wrong if it isn't.

>>26455524
For those who care.

Rank 4
Lake 7
River 2
Chi 11
Chi replenishment 2
Max Chi Aura 2
Max Skill Bonus +10

Archetype: Scholar - Breath with Learning

Sen Su

Secret Art of Prediction
Understanding the World

Tactics +10 Battlefield Analysis, Disruption
Inspire +5
Politics +5
Learning +5
Awareness +5
Confidence +10
Ride +5 Dangerous Terrain

Benevolence 1
Ferocity 1
Force 5
Individualism 1
Honor 3
Obsession 4
Loyalty 4
Revenge 1
Righteousness 2
Ruthlessness 3

Kung Fu
Bone-fed Wolf
Circling Pack - Disrupt or disorient you impose is +10 difficulty to recover
Marching Towards Hell - Flood one die to Disorient on successful hit.
Nine Sun Birds
1 - Cry of the Golden Crow +5 speed
2 - Hou Yi's Arrows +10 to strike
3 - Lashing Strike Gain Secondary Strike

Weapon - Massive Saber - Dadao - Emperor's Fury
Flood a die to cause rippling at 5 over defense.
Flood a die to ignore Armor.
Medium Armor

Combat Stats

Speed 0
Footwork 0
Strike +10
Damage +15
Block +5
Toughness +5


Loresheets
The Jiang Hu
The Wulin

>>26455578
Welcome to Touhoufag he's great at optimization but he likes to blow things out of proportion.

>>26455524

That is irrelevant when we are discussing how the system is set up, not how individual groups run it.

>>26455544

Not a single Entanglement option on the Loresheets says, "Something bad happens to your character." Rather, all of them have something interesting happen to your character and put them in the spotlight.

Suppose your character earns a nemesis who has sworn to hunt your character down to the ends of the earth. From an in-game standpoint, that is certainly an ill fate, but from a player standpoint, it is a good thing. Any given party in the genre faces enemy after enemy anyway, and an opponent of this nature casts *your* character in the spotlight.

It is a bit like how having a sworn Nemesis in 7th Sea *costs* you points, rather than gives you additional points.

>>26455592

Coordinates are useless without a point of reference. When discussing a game system, that point of origin is the default rules in the system itself.

It is, quite frankly, entirely pointless to discuss how individual groups run a game when what is being discussed is the game itself, standing on its own merits.

>>26455666
Then why complain about somebody giving you such a destiny? It's interesting, it's unexpected...there's really nothing worth complaining about. Unless, I guess, if the enemy you get ends up being a Rank 1 kung fu god while you're still a Rank 4.

>>26455737
Then you get to have fun with the classic cliche of your enemy grooming you into something that can actually challenge it.

>>26455793
Or he just...pastes you. But that would require a shit GM, and why are you playing with a shit GM?

>>26455737

I find it to be a matter of the way players should generally have a strong say in how their character progresses and develops in a narrative game.

Consider what happens when the default rule is: "The GM or another player gets to decide." The player can make suggestions, but it is still ultimately overruled by the GM or the other player, and there may very well be a disagreement that leaves the player unsatisfied.

If the default rule was instead, "The player decides, and the GM or the other player either approves or suggests a way to tweak the player's idea. Alternatively, the player can let the GM or the other player decide," it may appear to be a shell game that amounts to the same thing, but the decision is primarily handled by the player and then negotiated for. If the player has something strongly in mind, then the game encourages them to be the one to place it down on the table and take priority. If the player would rather be surprised, they leave it up to the GM or the other player.

From a narrative perspective, practically nothing is lost in the latter case.

>>26455932
Everyone else in the thread seems to be disagreeing with you on the way things "should" go, though. What you like not being the default doesn't make it bad.

>>26455932
Gotta say, most of these arguments are just making you sound like a control freak.

>>26454938
>That explains the autistic rants about everything he hates about a game he professes to love,
You know you can recognize flaws in something you like?

>>26456166
There is a distinction between "recognizing flaws" and "let's fill up 70% of the thread with everything I hate about the game".

Or did you miss all the people taking one look at those rants and deciding "man, to think I was interested in this unbalanced, overly complex pile of bullshit"?

>>26456166
It's not that he's pointing out flaws it's how he blows them well out of proportion.

>>26450335

>For example, the ridiculously powerful Courtier mentioned earlier in the thread: Yes, you could just Disorient his Inspire, or you could shove your spear through his larynx. Now his vocal cords are severed, and good luck speaking your poisoned, Confidence-destroying words like that.

It is a bit of a moot point to say this. Suppose the Courtier was instead, say, a generic Eight Legends honorable knight with a Massive + Sword weapon, or a similarly generic Storm God's Fury barbarian also with a Massive + Sword weapon. In either case, they would be just as susceptible to such tactics; they could be hit by a Disrupt to their Strike, or they could receive an Injury Condition that hinders their hands.

"Ah, but the Eight Legends knight or the Storm God's Fury barbarian could simply do something crazy like wield their leviathanic sword with their feet instead! Nothing in the rules prevents this!" one might say. Yes, that would certainly work.

On the other hand, nothing prevents a Courtier with damaged vocal cords from enacting similar chicanery, such as demoralizing opponents with their very stance, body language, and demeanor.

In other words, it is true to say that a certain optimized character can be laid low by proper tactics and debuffing the right things, but any other character can likewise be defeated with those same tactics and debuffing the right things as well.

>>26456276
There's a section on the book wherein penalties and bonuses are given based on the plausibility of your attempts actually working. A courtier who specializes in wordplay suddenly trying to demoralize his opponents using only body language would suffer implausibility penalties.

>>26456225
And that he's mostly going nuts over very specific edge cases while ignoring all the stuff that works just as well as it's supposed to.

Or, hell, taking the stuff that works just as well as it's supposed to and deciding it's bad anyway (like the Entanglement system), then ignoring the changes that would make it more to his liking by saying the game should have catered to his tastes in the first place.

>>26450783

>Elemental chi is more expensive to acquire though. It takes 5 times the Elemental chi rating to get a new point of E chi, while it only takes one times the normal chi rating to get normal chi.
>It's cheaper to get the first three points of E chi

Those first three points of Elemental Chi are all that really matter.

Having a *single point* of Elemental Chi effectively increases your rate of Chi replenishment by 1, which is no small deal when the default at 4th Rank is 2 Chi each round.

Furthermore, every point of Elemental Chi you have effectively increases your maximum Chi pool by 1 for the purpose of spending Chi.

Suppose you have gone all-out and purchased Heaven's Lightning, Ice Sutra, or Iron Body Skill all the way up to their level 5 technique, thereby netting you 3 Earth, Water, or Metal Chi respectively. You now have a higher effective Chi replenishment rate than most characters, along with a higher

Yes, it is true that Elemental Chi is more difficult to purchase beyond 3 points, but that is not much of a problem at all when nothing at all prevents you from purchasing regular Chi using the Cultivation you gain from improving your external style and Secret Arts.

By acquiring Elemental Chi, you are dipping into the best of both worlds for great effect, improving your capacity to spend Chi.

>>26456528
Please stop

>>26456528
Please continue

>>26456022

You could stand to provide a counterargument rather than appealing to apparent popularity in a single thread in an anonymous imageboard.

>>26456450

There is nothing that says that the courtier in question specializes only in wordplay; they may very well be just as adept with their poise and presence as they are with their words.

One might as well say that the Eight Legends knight or the Storm God's Fury barbarian is specialized in wielding swords with their hands, and would therefore have no way of circumventing action penalties originating from an Injury Condition of the hands, unless they wish to take penalties for implausibility.

>>26456481

I would like to think that most players can see the unnecessary risks and pitfalls surrounding individual character advancement (i.e. characters can progress and earn resources at an asymmetric rate, creating the possibility of some characters lagging behind) wherein the GM and the other players get to decide where certain points go.

>>26456528

>You now have a higher effective Chi replenishment rate than most characters, along with a higher

Along with a higher effective Chi maximum to draw from, that is.

People with autism shouldn't be allowed to talk about RPGs.

>>26456697
>You could stand to provide a counterargument rather than appealing to apparent popularity in a single thread in an anonymous imageboard.
Are you seriously bringing formal logic into "a single thread on an anonymous imageboard"?

That aside, several people have provided counterarguments. You've ignored them because they don't line up with your personal preference.

>>26456993
He responded to every counterargument.

>>26457006
With "I don't like that, I like this".

And "If you're playing with complete shitheads, this could go badly."

>>26457021
And completely taking apart some of the others, like the people going "b-b-but the attacking guy with the underpowered build could stunt his attack, and if the guy defending DOESN'T stunt, than th-th-they're equal!"

>>26457064
Yeah, I notice none of the Defense Force in this thread have made a comeback from that one yet.

>>26457021

If everyone has to come to see it as a matter of opinion, then I am willing to concede and simply call it something I greatly *dislike*. My opinion does not match up with the opinion of the system's designers, and that is why it is one of my grievances with the system, but others may very well be perfectly fine with how Entanglement is set up.

My concern is not with, as you say, "shitheads." It is with people who inadvertently hinder one another without realizing it, especially when it comes to handing out individual character resources as rewards. Good intentions may lead to unfortunate circumstances that some may realize too late. That is an unnecessary risk I simply dislike having present in a system.

If it helps, I speak from a mindset that advocates as much equality between players in an RPG as possible, be it in mechanical competence or ability to affect the story. This is because I believe that one of the prime draws of roleplaying games is to allow everyone to contribute on an even playing field and not feel left or lagging behind in any way, shape, or form.

>>26456276
Thanks for sharing your insights. It's food for thought.

>>26457379
>insights
>autism

So aside from the Entanglement thing (which seems to mostly be a matter of personal preference), it looks like most other issues can be solved by just not using the styles in the book?

I enjoy homebrew, so that works for me.

>>26457870
>homebrew everything to solve everything

Good system, folks.

>>26458267
Didn't say you NEEDED to homebrew everything to solve everything, just that you could. But please, feel free to put more words in my mouth.

>>26458267
> homebrew
The system is designed specifically so you can create new lore sheets, styles, arts and weapons ... and you're trying to spin that as a bad thing? Stop whiterooming with hypothetical dickbags.

OP here yet again

To the guy generally douching up the thread, why is it you spent so much effort and time posting about something you apparently hate when the vast majority were here to talk about what they like about this system? You're like that annoying fucktard who has to be in on every topic, and when he's not getting attention, becomes an argumentative shit just to get some.

>>26459218
I just wonder how badly these "arguments" are going to carry into other threads as "proof" that LotW is a bad game (despite the fact that even rantguy says it's really good).

I hope this doesn't stop people from trying and liking this game.