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25629289 No.25629289 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Gentlemen! I love necromancy!

I love the morally gray magic (system permitting), the transhuman ideals, and all the great horror that comes from plunging into the uncanny valley with pretty much every element of it. Never mind the simple appeal of terrifying undead armies at your call.

That said, for all my years in tabletop, I've never gotten a real chance to play one. Which system do you think fits a Necromancer the best?

>> No.25630927

>>25629289
D&D 3.5e
Best for any spellcaster

>> No.25632609 [DELETED] 

>>25629289
>I love the morally gray magic (system permitting), the transhuman ideals, and all the great horror that comes from plunging into the uncanny valley with pretty much every element of it. Never mind the simple appeal of terrifying undead armies at your call.

Amen sister/brother.
>That said, for all my years in tabletop, I've never gotten a real chance to play one. Which system do you think fits a Necromancer the best?
I wish I knew

>> No.25632697

D&D supplement Heros of Horror has the best class called Dread Necromancer. The class starts out very slow for lower levels but ramps the fuck up once it hits level 10. At lvl 20 you become a lich for free.

Take some feats from the Libris Mortus and anything that boosts CHA and you're looking at controlling whole armies of Undead by lvl 15.

>> No.25632710
File: 183 KB, 619x900, fleshcrafted thing.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25632710

>>25629289
>I love the morally gray magic (system permitting), the transhuman ideals, and all the great horror that comes from plunging into the uncanny valley with pretty much every element of it. Never mind the simple appeal of terrifying undead armies at your call.

Amen sister/brother.
_
_
_

>That said, for all my years in tabletop, I've never gotten a real chance to play one. Which system do you think fits a Necromancer the best?
I wish I knew.

>> No.25632714
File: 142 KB, 1600x1200, bear.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25632714

Bear, The Mauling.
With so many dead bodies lying around from the constant bear attacks you'll have a zombie army in no time.

>> No.25632729

>>25630927
This. DnD 3.5 is caster edition for a reason

>> No.25632794
File: 140 KB, 590x432, 1331624564225.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25632794

Hear hear, fellow Necromancer! Truly we are the most superior minded of all practitioners of magic!

>> No.25632885
File: 94 KB, 1000x727, Gentlemen, I like war.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25632885

>>25630927
>>25632729
>3.5
I've found AD&D 2e to be more encompassing in terms of necromancy, but I'm a sucker for the "healing is necromancy" concept. Plus, dat Level 4 "Raise Dead" spell. Shit's SO cash, and morally grey as fuck.

>>25629289
>Gentlemen! I love necromancy!
I was expecting this to go somewhere a little different. But still, you are my person of African ancestry.

>> No.25633073

>>25632885
Gentlemen, I like necromancy.
Gentlemen, I like necromancy.
Gentlemen I love necromancy.

I like skeletons.
I like zombies.
I like angry spirits.
I like soothed spirits.

I like revivals.
I like healing wounds.
I like chilling.
I like shriveling up.
I like decaying.

In cemetaries.
On graves.
In mausoleums.
In hospices.
On wasteland.
In boneyard.
On field.
In lair.
In tower.
In swamps.

I love every aspect of necromancy that takes place on this plane.

>> No.25633192
File: 194 KB, 575x558, everynecromancerlairencounterever.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25633192

Necromancy is like the thrift shop of magic schools.

>> No.25633305
File: 250 KB, 449x652, Necromancer_by_DBed.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25633305

>> No.25633424

NECROMANCER ACTIVITY BOOK: Make a Lich! Only, instead of your typical magic-flinging necromancer, make him a Death Hand! Like a dark monk, he fights swiftly and hand to hand, using life draining magics are horrible organ-ripping moves with his steel-hard sharpened bone fists!

>> No.25633626

>>25633073
KRIEG KRIEG KRIEG

>> No.25633638

>>25633424
Stolen.
>sobasys influence
Who is sobasys and what other ideas does he have?

>> No.25633763
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25633763

>>25633638
Why, Sobasys is the name of your new Death Hand Lich, of course! And his influence is sinister -- he wanders about the land, finding warriors on the brink of death, and makes them a terrible offer. Should they accept, they will die, but then be brought back, with some powerful and terrible undead template, lusting to murder again.

Somehow, they always manage to be warriors the party got killed somehow. Funny, that.

As for Sobasys? Well, he just wants to fight, and see fighting. Gentlemen, he LOVES war.

>> No.25633901
File: 317 KB, 1366x768, necrotower.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25633901

I have always wanted to do a nonevil necromancer, but I feel it would be difficult to play a normal flavor necromancer who just isnt a power greedy dick, perhaps someone who would be willing to do evil for the greater good?

Personally I feel raising unintelligent undead without a soul in them is perfectly fine, and is only evil if used for evil, if a shambling corpse is 100% controlled and helps granny carry groceries, that is good, yes?

Hardest part would be convincing the GM and that paladin that my undead bear wrapped in barbed wire with wooden stakes sticking out of it is an agent of good, and that all those runes i carved in my flesh or drew with blood are not going to summon demons. Or, maybe they will summon demons, but its k because I will control them. Probably.

Is it at all possible to heal with necromancy magic as a nondivine class? Something like using your blood to heal a dying party member might convince them that you are on their side.

>> No.25633966

>>25633901
Necromancy that just raises dead flesh and bone or calms restless spirits is barely evil at all.

My game has necromancers everywhere and as a character class. Zombies serve a big part in manual labor for difficult or impoverished regions, and it's very good to have a necromancer around when the dead rise for bad reasons. Zombies are just tools, like golems. Nothing bad about them save for what they get programmed with.

Most of them work as morticians, forsenics officers, alchemists, and priests of sorts who help the bereaved or dying.

If you create abominations or murder people or do any sort of 'dark' necromancy, yeah, you'll be offed, but otherwise it's silly to treat all necromancy WOOOO EVIL 2SPOOKY

>> No.25634050
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25634050

>>25633966
>otherwise it's silly to treat all necromancy WOOOO EVIL 2SPOOKY
I dunno', you might be surprised by how some dumb motherfuckers treat necromancy. I once had a guy playing with me try to argue that his "Chaotic Neutral" Assassin, who trapped souls in a tortuous state to use for bolstering his attacks, was less evil than my Neutral Good Necromancer who just animated bones and healed wounds. He wasn't even pretending to be retarded.

>> No.25634098

>>25633901
I tend to have good necromancers in D&D.

Then if the DM states OOC that necromancy is evil, I alignment shift to evil and begin maximum rapey edginess until he regrets it.

Then continue to do so.

>> No.25634104

>>25633966
>>25633901
I view necromancy as taking advantage of the residual life energy which remains on the bodies of the dead to explain why it needs to be something that died. So even though the corpse doesn't have a soul, it still bears a sort of power that can be taken advantage of for animation and still carries the tiniest amount of faux intelligence.

Honestly, I've always viewed undead as being more chaotic in the "against the natural order" sense, rather than evil, which means they're disruptive, but not granny raping.

>> No.25634154

>>25633966
Yeah that's the way I feel about it, but I have learned that many people don't, never really have any good reasons for why its evil, always shit like "its a rotting corpse. therefor it must be evil." or saying that just the act of bringing negative energy into the world is evil because it makes the world inherently worse. somehow.

Which means bringing positive energy into the world is good, so what if you kill a redeemed vampire who feeds the needy with a positive energy spell? how is the world a better place now? I don't know.

>> No.25634159

>>25634050
It's really silly. It's meat and bone moving around under your power, it's not even a person anymore, just animate flesh. Tormenting souls is incredibly fucking evil.

>>25634104
I sort of do that too -- bodies are excellent for channeling ambient mana and life energy, so animating dead bodies with magic from the surrounding area is just easy, which is why it's done. Easier to raise a corpse in the forest, too.

And I use the same ideas -- the chemical imprints on the brain still remain and get flickered by your power, they use that to be able to perform what's asked of them without being idiots.

>> No.25634614

>>25634159
Yeah. Even with three of us -- the DM included -- the dense fucker couldn't get it. He even denied being evil, himself, because he "only tortured evil souls."

Come to think of it, either he was the single best troll I've ever met, or he had a literal mental disorder. Oh, the strives of the modern necromancer.

>> No.25634616

I played in a game where another player nerdraged at the introduction of a Dry Lich because he didn't like that it pinged as non-evil. To be fair, the DM did not do a great job of making them non-villainous (opened with a monologue attempt), but it was still groanworthy to see someone get upset at the idea of non-evil undead.

The setting was Eberron.

>> No.25634755

I've... heard you can build a decent necromancer in RIFTS. Not sure if true.

>> No.25634773

More /v/ than /tg/ but are there any good pc games that feature good necromancer feels?

>> No.25634926
File: 245 KB, 932x1253, 1371743246128.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25634926

>>25634773
Diablo 2, Path of Exile, age of conan, dwarf fortress adventure mode.... probably alot I'm forgetting. I do a google run for necromancer type games and books about every month or so, but rarely find anything good.

If you want a book I can't think of much there either, The Half Orcs series is the best I can think of, a great deal of grey morality, undead armies, and a bit of redemption.

>> No.25635031

Why don't you guys just build goddamn golems? There's no moral questions there. You can build them in whatever size and shape you want. They are just as obedient. Maybe even more so depending on the system. You don't have to desecrate the bodies of the dead, or hand around dead things and scavengers. You don't have to constantly put yourself in environments where there could be contagious diseases.

Its safer, more effective, less morally questionable and has no stigma attached to it.

>> No.25635076

>>25635031
Golems take a lot of fucking time, money, craft, experience, and magic to build.

Raising the dead is quick and cheap.

>> No.25635079
File: 68 KB, 500x500, tupilaq.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25635079

>>25629289
The Tupilak is an artificial animal made from various animal cadavers. It is able to take the appearance and attributes of any of its composite parts. Most Tupilaks are made from bears, ravens, seals and reindeer. This gives the Tupilak battle prowess and the ability of flight. Then the Tupilak will fly, run and swim across the world in order to find its prey and kill it.
Inuit mythology sure is interesting.

>> No.25635105

>>25634104

If something still had the spark of life in it, it would still be alive. That life only being a spark would probably make that being sick or old or something. The only life left in a corpse is the life of all the things that are consuming the body.

>> No.25635119

Because it's cheaper to do.

>> No.25635128
File: 18 KB, 300x436, 814508-dominions_box_large.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25635128

>>25634773
Dominions 3.
If you want responsible necromancy, go with C'tis (Egyptian Lizardmen)
If you want zombie apocalypse, shit's totally hit the fuckin fan go with Late Age Ermor (Undead Roman empire)
To put this in prespective, a large army is around 200 troops in the game. A large army for Ermor is around 5k.

>> No.25635131

>>25635076
Yeah, golems are you starting from scratch as opposed to refurbishing a used soul container.

Also, interestingly enough, there are bone golems.

Just in case you want to desecrate the dead and waste tons of resources.

>>25635105
I'm not referring to the spark of life, just the echo of where it once was.

>> No.25635154

>>25635031
Because corpses are easy to find and there's a metric fucking shitton of them.

>> No.25635216

>>25634154

Its bad because you are animating the remains of a sapient being without consent from his/her next of kin or that being's immortal soul for the purposes of serving you. If I was maimed in a crash and lost my legs or something similar, you'd be damned sure my family and I would be aghast at somebody using my bones at carving tools or decorations. I don't care that my femur makes for a very nice chair leg, its my leg!

>> No.25635239

>>25635216
What you're talking about isn't evil, though, just unlawful.

>> No.25635254

>>25635216
King has mandated all corpses be put to the use of service to the kingdom through royal necromancers who will animate them for defense of the homeland and manual labor so you can enjoy the quality of life you have.

Please direct all complaints to the local tax agency.

>> No.25635328

>>25635131

Please explain to me what the echo of life is. I don't understand. A thing is either dead or alive. Perhaps you are refering to something like when a soul leaves a body it leaves a vacuum that can be filled by something else?

>> No.25635329

>>25635031
If golems didn't cost a metric fuckton of gold and XP, then yes I'd just go around with a little posse of golems, but they cost a LOT of time and materials to make and undead can be made on a whim just by casting one of theany spells I get each day for free

>> No.25635377
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25635377

>>25629289
I always enjoyed Exalted's Necromancy, even if it subpar compared to something like Martial Arts.

>> No.25635390

>>25634926
Also dungeon crawl stone soup, Slash'em mod for nethack, icewind dale 1/2 with raise dead clerics/sorcs/wizards, guild wars 1, not sure about the 2nd one.

Solid and Shade mod for mount and blade (not warband) is also great.

Fuck me why have I not listed Ultima Online yet?

If anyone knows some I have not listed I would be glad to know of them.

>>25635031

Some might say a walking corpse is just a flesh golem, and in some settings they are.

>>25635216

What if i used your corpse for good? maybe harvested your organs to save a dying child without your consent, then had it serve a farmer forever, feeding the poor with little/no upkeep and not needing to be paid.

In this way, a dead, useless corpse could be useful to the living once again instead of just rotting in the ground into nothingness.

>> No.25635492

Any one play Heroes of Might and Magic 4?

Goaldoth Haft-Dead was such a great character.

A wise and just leader. Gives gold to the family of anyone who donates their body after death. Respects the wishes of those who do not want to be raised. Used ice demons in a dungeon to store bodies to keep them from decomposing for stronger undead when needed. Would not attack a neighboring kingdom when they were distracted by a war on their opposite border, instead sent them a letter about their possible tactical misstep. Has a good outlook on life/undeath. Creation is not good, Destruction is not bad, they are all a natural part of the universe and both are needed. Does not wish to conquer the world, only wants a humble kingdom where necromancers can live in peace, along with its peasants.

>> No.25635496

>>25635254

I'm sorry, but some kind of ritual that puts to rest the remains of the dead has been a constant since the dawn of human kind. It would take more than the decree of a single king to overturn what is human nature. Not to mention that a king is never the sole power within a kingdom and there would be countless other nobles and religious leaders that would be opposed to such a mandate.

People who refer to dead bodies as "just meat" have either spent too much time with dead human bodies or no time at all. Treating the dead with some kind of respect is human nature. Hell, even some other animals that we don't consider sentient have some regard to the remains of their own species.

>> No.25635539

>>25635496
Thanks. The dead army will escort you to the border. You are no longer a citizen of the kingdom. Enjoy living in a different one.

>> No.25635552 [SPOILER] 
File: 73 KB, 400x388, feels bad.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25635552

>>25635128
>play Ermor
>start off doing good
>later run into financial problem because half your provinces are completely devoid of life
On the flip side though, all the lands you conquer effectively become worthless

>> No.25635585

>>25635328
In the metaphysical sense, you might say that things which carried a soul bear its imprint, sort of like a fingerprint. You have to supply the actual energy to get things moving again, and it's obviously degraded somewhat from dying (not to mention that you're substituting the energy that's natural to the body for something else), but it's easier to do than starting from scratch.

Would kind of explain why people who were more powerful in life are stronger than other corpses once animated, and as such require more energy to get up and fighting, skeleton or no.

This wouldn't necessarily be a literal engraving on the bones, though hey, there's an idea for bringing back servants you especially liked.

>> No.25635631

>>25635496
You're mistaking unnatural for evil, which is very much arguable.

>> No.25635640

>>25635496
You are correct, it is human nature to respect the dead, and there are many taboos against disturbing them and generally doing so invites some kind of curse or spirit to fuck you over.

But you cannot deny the use of corpses for manual labor instead of slaves, and their use in war is obvious, after death the soul has moved on and it is just a shell of what it once was, little reason to not use it if it will save your people's lives.

I believe some drow citys keep all the undead preserved in catacombs so they can raise them in times of war, not sure who gets to make that call or who controls them though.

>> No.25635730

>>25635640
>keep all the undead preserved in catacombs so they can raise them in times of war,

See, now that's an idea I like. Having my dead body defend my family and their freedom in times of war? I'd sign for that.

>> No.25635828
File: 284 KB, 1198x1530, Necromancy!.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25635828

Crafting a golem is basically making a cake from scratch, while creating an undead is more akin to finding an old cake in the fridge, chopping it up into cubes then layering it in a parfait glass with whipped cream.

>> No.25635854
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25635854

I'll just leave this here

>> No.25635868

I personally like the idea of necromancy through contracts with the spirits of the dead. Can I make 7000 skeletons? no. But I can summon the still very powerful spirit of a silver dragon provided I'm protecting people with it. My contracts would limit what I can do with certain souls, but this is being a good necromancer thread, that shouldn't be a problem. Plus I'm sure there's plenty of dead barbarians itching to get back to a battlefield.

Not so much a death wizard, more of a death lawyer.

>> No.25635882

>>25635828
Who knew the dead were so delicious?

>> No.25635900

>>25635390
>>25635390
>What if i used your corpse for good? maybe harvested your organs to save a dying child without your consent, then had it serve a farmer forever, feeding the poor with little/no upkeep and not needing to be paid.

That's assuming a lot of things. Namely, why can a wizard take dead organs and turn them into perfectly healthy, living organs but not rejuvenate the sick but still living organs of a child? Bringing dead matter back to life would be fundamentally harder than healing sickness.

How the hell is an animated corpse an servant with no upkeep? Maggots love dead flesh. There are tons of carrion eating creatures in the world. Dessicated flesh has physical limitations. Bones can break. Muscles and ligaments can tear. Dead flesh builds up filth and stinks to high heaven so they would need to be washed to some degree. If you are going to bullshit through all these problems with "MAGIC BITCH" than why can't you take all this magic you pulled out of your ass to give life to more convenient inorganic materials?

>> No.25635906

>>25635730
And really, you're not doing it. You get to pass on to the afterlife AND you leave your family with a protection plan.

>> No.25635929

Necromancers get a bad rap so the Soul Eaters can work unhindered and unopposed.

>> No.25635932

You know, I just realized. The people arguing that messing with the dead is wrong, even for positive purposes, are criminalizing organ donation.

>> No.25635938

>>25635640

If its just a dead shell and it is a noble thing to put the dead to some use than cannibalism is a-okay so long as you don't kill the person for the purpose of eating them. After all, that flesh can provide nourishment to those who don't have the means to eat anything else.

>> No.25635959

>>25635932
That's news to you?

>> No.25635966

>>25635938
see
>>25635932

Also, cannibalizing the dead isn't evil, either, it's just in poor taste. No one is arguing Necromancers aren't icky.

>> No.25635967

I found it funny when my PCs allied with a necromancer, who was perfectly fine, but had reservations since he was called a "Gravelord".

The vampire contact was like, yeah, well, he's a master of necromancy and earth magic, so he's Gravelord. What's so evil about that title?

They couldn't really argue.

>> No.25635979

>>25635932
Organ donation has the express consent of the donor though. They people calling necromancy evil are referring to the exploitation of tissue WITHOUT prior consent.

>> No.25635987

>>25635932

Organ donation is done of one's own free will. If somebody was to sign up for being reanimated as a skeleton to till crops until their bones turn to dust than sure. Its their body. They can do what they like with it.

>> No.25635991

>>25635900
Normally, yeah, a zombie's bones would shatter just from tripping over gopher holes, but for whatever reason that shit just never ever happens in anything ever, and undead corpses in tombs just last forever and never rot, or if they do, they become skeletons.

Many undead also regenerate, and zombies can shrug off blunt damage right?

>>25635938

And yes, cannibalism is fine in my book, so long as you didnt kill the person with the intent of eating them, and no other option was available.

>> No.25635993

>>25633192
I'mma raise your grandpa's corpse
I'mma raise your grandpa's corpse
No, f'r real, here's five silver, can I raise your grandpa's corpse?

Your grammy, your aunty, your momma, your mammy
I'll take those dead ladies bodies, second-hand, I rock that motherfucker
The built-in skeletons with the skin on that motherfucker
I meet the party and they stop in that motherfucker
They be like, "Oh, that zombie - that's a nasty sight."
I'm like, "Yo - that's fifty gold for a material cost."

>> No.25636000

>>25635979
I mean shit in a setting where there is an afterlife, maybe 20 of them, who would even care about the body being used when the soul is already on its way to fuck some angels

>> No.25636007

>>25635328
if you have water in a cup, and the you pour it out, isnt there some water still on the inside?

>> No.25636031

>>25636007
Kinda the concept I use. Freshly dead bodies still have some motes of life in them, makes them easier to raise.

>> No.25636034

>>25635979
That's fair, but even then, I wouldn't be totally horrified if the government started making organ donation mandatory post-death. Peoples sensibilities should be respected, but a kid dying because they couldn't get a liver transplant is sadder.

It's unlawful, not evil.

>> No.25636039

I'm no expert on in-game necromancy, but is it really "morally gray"? Necromancy means "Death magic", the black arts of death (causing death, communicating with the dead, using the spirits of the dead, and within fantasy also raising the dead physically). It's considered a form of black magic, which is usually not seen as "morally grey", more "morally pretty evil".

>> No.25636081
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25636081

I am conflicted. You see, I am caught between three great loves.

I love necromancy. I love raising my enemies as meat puppets to dance at my command (sometimes literally, to hilarious effect). I love piecing together disparate pieces of old bodies to make horrible Ball-of-Arms Zombies. I love spell-stitching my familiar. I love placing pieces of my soul in canopic phylacteries and placing them in negative energy infused temples filled with all manner of sand and flesh golem, wights and wraiths, ghouls and ghosts.

But I also love Renegade Mastermakers, those willing to fuse the best parts of their flesh with superior hardware and the purity of metal. I love turning my arms into giant swiss-army knives, or implanting people with high explosives and scooping out their brains to turn them into remote controlled terror agents. I love hiding a cannon or rifle in each and every joint of my body, and marching onto the battlefield as a one-man artillery brigade.

Yet I also cannot deny my love for the Fleshwarper, the Alienist, the Beastmorph Alchemist or the Aberrant Aegis. I love being able to grow tentacles or a crown of eyeballs on command. I love replacing my heart with that of a troll's so that I might regenerate horrible wounds. I love performing ghastly experiments on living beings to transmogrify them into patchwork Frankenstein monstrosities. I love to seek a means of controlling my own biological evolution into a more perfect state of being, even if that means becoming the ugliest, most maddening looking creature that ever crawled or walked this plane of existence until I am capable of ascending to join my insane brethren in the Far Realm.

I think I may have a problem.

>> No.25636082

>>25636039
actually, necromancy means dead divination. if we are getting into technicalitys, necromancy is only the using of souls to learn the future

>> No.25636091

>>25636039
>causing death
All adventurers do this.
>communicating with the dead
How is communication in any way evil?
>using the spirits of the dead,
Well, that's as evil as slavery which is its own discussion. But it's also not the usual mode of necromancy in games.
>and within fantasy also raising the dead physically
This is the grey part, which we're discussing.

>> No.25636101

>>25636039
Death is as much a part of the cycle of life as life is, if not even more so. Decay is required to recycle resources so that other things may live and thrive, it is just the way the world works. We dont like death though, and its generally demonized in most settings.

>>25636082

That is the old definition of necromancy, and has little place in the name it has today.

>> No.25636110

>>25636007

Life is not water. Life is not an element. It is a process. If you let a fire burn in a pit until is consumes all its fuel and dies out, is there still fire in the pit?

>> No.25636114

>>25636081
No reason you can't do all three. Yawgmoth did.

>> No.25636119

>>25636039
Plain whitebread wizards can paralyze you, explode you, alter your body permanently, cast you into a portal into hell, use spirits of all kinds, mind control you, and a thousand and one other hideous violations of life and thought and soul. But nobody so much as fucking sneezes at the fact.

>> No.25636132

>>25636110
Yes. There is still coals and warm ash.

>> No.25636148

>>25636000
Maybe no one, maybe a bunch of people. I just feel like erring on the side of caution is more agreeable for all involved when it comes to the bodies of the deceased.
>>25636034
If a fantasy kingdom had that sort of law in place regarding corpses, then necro on.

>> No.25636162
File: 1.01 MB, 2000x2933, 1366488891978.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25636162

>>25629289
Necromancer 1: It never gets old, huh?
Necromancer 2: Nope.
Necromancer 1: It kinda makes you wanna...
Necromancer 2: Break into song?
Necromancer 1: Yep.

I love the mountains.
I love the when parties die.
I love being liches.
I love when body parts fly.
I love the whole world.
And all its sights and sounds.

Boom De Yada!
Boom De Yada!
Boom De Yada!
Boom De Yada!

I love the ocean.
I love to raise things.
I love to cast fast.
I love Egyptian kings.
I love the whole world
And all its craziness

Boom De Yada!
Boom De Yada!
Boom De Yada!
Boom De Yada!

I love tornadoes.
I love undead arachnids.
I love hot magma.
I love giant zombie squids.
I love the whole world.
It's such a brilliant place.


Boom De Yada!
Boom De Yada!
Boom De Yada!
Boom De Yada!

>> No.25636164

>>25636132
But only for a while. So by that metaphor, zombies might be bad but skeletons are fine.

>> No.25636165

>>25636039
A lot of things cause death. Fireballs for instance. Death is a thing that is not inherently evil, so messing around with it isn't evil, either. Wee Jas was a lawful neutral goddess of death in the Greyhawk setting that was okay with raising the dead so long as it wasn't without the permission of the target (because she was very much lawful, and it's a property rights issue), and tended to mostly be about funerary rights and such.

Granted, 3.5 is dumb and gave Animate Dead the [Evil] type. If we were arguing over whether or not raising the dead in 3.5 is evil, this conversation would be over, but we're attempting to go a bit beyond that.

>> No.25636183

>>25636091
Oh, I was mostly talking about "irl necromancy", as in the occult practice of the black arts of death. Which is why I added "within fantasy" to the part about raising them physically. As I said, I am no expert on in-game necromancy.
>>25636082
Yes, but within modern language use we call it "magic". We don't say "Black Divination", but "Black Magic" for example. It's generally the same thing.

>> No.25636192

>>25636110
I'm not the one you're responding to, but you're assuming things. There are plenty of setting where you can shoot a person in the face with a beam of death.

>> No.25636202

>>25635131

A corpse has all the muscles and bone required to move and whatever, a golem must be made from scratch and given movement through nothing but magic.

>> No.25636213

Kinda seems easy to just say "there's good necromancy and bad necromancy" and move on from that.

>> No.25636225

>>25636110
life isnt, but souls are.

>> No.25636230

>>25636165
In 3.5, a great enough quantity of positive energy can make you explode, resulting in death. So yeah, the whole thing where it's evil is kind of bizarre, especially with things like False Life around, which can keep people from dying.

I'm starting to suspect it was because angry soccer moms or something. It was in the core book.

>> No.25636239

>>25636213
But then we'd argue over which is which, and then we'd be back where we started.

>> No.25636281

>>25636165
Well, within fantasy settings all schools of magic has something that can kill people, so I'll give you that. I don't know anything about the moral systems of fantasy games (exept from what I've learned from visiting /tg/ the last few years).
But if you were to compare it to the irl practice of magic (whether you belive that the divination of the soul is possible or not), wanting to cause death by supernatural means through the spirits of the dead isn't really something a gay wiccan that want's to speak with trees would speak highly of.
That said, 99% of the practice of necromancy is about communicating with the dead, to learn the secrets of death and such.

>> No.25636284

>>25636239
Well then it's up to each setting and culture

Typically shit like "necromorphs eating my organs while pus boils erupt out of mt eyes as I scream and feel my soul being nibbled by abyssal blight maggots" is a good start for me on the bad end

>> No.25636290

>raising the dead is just like making golems

way to make necromancy boring. you might as well just get rid of necromancy, fold it into artificing, and specify that artificers can use skeletons as cheap golems.

>> No.25636312

>>25636290
Sure? Necromancy as a utilitarian and efficient kind of labor magic has its own appeal for the vast effect it has on a society and its works.

My players are already itching like mad to hire this one wheel-chair bound troll necromancer mortician for their colony expedition so they can possibly have a source of low-maintenance labor using zombies.

>> No.25636385

>>25636312
And also, all things considered, undead are allowed to borrow some traits from the soul that once inhabited them, even if the similarities between their old and new self are spiritually cosmetic. I like the idea of golems that bear echoes of the parts from which they're composed.

In addition, I like the idea of having undead as not being evil, but definitely being against the natural order of things. So there can still be vast implications and consequences for raising a zombie or skeleton, even if it doesn't need to imply the caster rapes puppies.

>> No.25636516

>>25636385
You know whats against the natural order? farming. But last i checked no one does campaigns centered around the big evil Archfarmer.

>> No.25636531

>>25636516
I have my new big bad.

>> No.25636536

>>25636516
Sounds like you haven't played oWolf.

>> No.25636548

>>25636516
Yeah well someone SHOULD.

>> No.25636559

>>25636516
farmings not against nature, its using nature. necromancy is bringing the dead (THE END) back to life.

>> No.25636591

I for one strongly support the notion of having things that are against the natural order of things, but not innately evil. It lets necromancers still be scary and creepy.

>> No.25636613

>>25636559
ME AM PLAY GOD!

>> No.25636641
File: 611 KB, 960x1299, 1348265843787.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25636641

>>25636613

>> No.25636656

>>25636559
>warming body around dog not against nature, its using nature. Fire is turning the cold wood (THE COLD) into fire!

>Praying to God is not against nature, it's using nature. Medicine is going against God's will!

"Unnatural" is a completely unnatural concept.

>> No.25636691

>>25636656
good thing we're talking about fictional worlds then, in which there often exists a real natural order (often established by gods) with consequences for everyone when it is broken.

>> No.25636710

>>25636110
No but there is the leftover heat from the process.
You can't use the pit for cooking anymore but you can use the leftover heat to stay warm awhile.

>> No.25636750

>>25636691
I'm in a Scion game where we're fighting a god that resulted from mankind preventing death with medicine. My character is entirely against killing this thing because, while it needs to be subdued to prevent it from destroying everything, the idea itself isn't something he wants removed from the world entirely, however much it fucks with the natural order of things.

>> No.25636763

>>25636710
AND THAT HEAT IF YOU USE IT LIKE THAT IS UNNATURAL AND EVIL!!!!!!!!!!

>> No.25637361

>>25633901
you know, raising tons of skeletons then hire them out to do construction is a good thing to do as a necromancer right?

imagine, a worker who can work 24/7, no need for food or other nourishment, and will NOT complain about work and living condition.

suddenly we have cities and castles built overnight. great wall of china can be build without having tons of dead body under it.
huzzah necromancy

>> No.25637382

>>25637361

Yeah that's what I was getting at, exceedingly cheap labor with little to zero maintenance that can serve as an emergency fearless militia.

>> No.25637601

>>25636230
Yeah, necromancy being evil because it introduces negative energy into the world is bullshit. If that's the case, then healing spells are also evil because they introduce positive energy into the world, which can be just as dangerous.

>> No.25637653

>>25629289
Pathfinder certainly has the most options for necromancers. Alchemists, antipaladins, clerics, oracles, sorcerers, witches, and wizards all have options for a necromancer character. Summoners don't really have necromancy spells, but you could refluff your eidolon to be some sort of undead or ghost creature if you wanted to.

>> No.25637656

Necromancy is an accordance between the living and the dead. Be it divining truths by asking them, permitting them access to one body or corpse, or pleading with the spirit to not leave the freshly dead shell. Necromancers have the wisdom of the dead.

>> No.25637675

>>25634926
that lady looks like Riven as a vampire or something.

Sage for off topic

>> No.25637792

>Consistently play Chaotic Good/Neutral Necromancer
>Usually have to wear down/break in new DMs but they eventually grow to accept and love my necros.
>Be extremely adept at black humor comic relief

My favorite necromancer I ever played Which I'm not allowed to ever play again in any incarnation after I accidentally broke the game with him was very snide, but good natured overall. I think one of his defining moments was when there was a little girl in the village crying about her puppy dying from a snake bite. He loved pets, and hated seeing children distraught, so he passed on drinking and fucking bar wenches to bring the little girl's puppy back to life. That or when we punched an elder wyrm so hard it shit out its own organs... those are the two defining character moments

>> No.25637808

>>25635987
Sign my ass up.

>> No.25637841

Necromancy is evil because of undead hating all life. Zombies, skeletons, and all other mindless undead will go around and destroy any living thing they encounter. And unlike most spells, animate dead, create undead, and other undead creating abilities are instantaneous....meaning the undead don't have a duration. They exist until destroyed....unlike the necromancer, unless he becomes a lich. And unfortunately, even then, if they leave his control - unlikely but possible through many, many means - they then become murderous monsters out to destroy all life.

Necromancy is evil because the necromancer is creating monsters which will invariable kill all living things the instant he no longer holds the reins of their power.

>> No.25637863
File: 334 KB, 1360x768, 2013-02-21_00003.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25637863

>>25637675
I believe that is the necromancer girl from the might and magic clash of heroes game, her chunk was the best section of the game in my opinion.

>>25637792

Curious, how did you break the game exactly? giant undead elder wyrm?

Also, can anyone here with experience playing necromancers tell me they prefer arcane or divine? I believe there was also an actual necromancer base class for 3.5 but I never see anyone mention it in necromancer discussions so dunno.


Also forgot to mention TOME4 has good necromancers, they just pale in comparison to the funness of the other classes and are rather difficult to unlock.

>> No.25637925
File: 492 KB, 700x990, knight1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25637925

>>25637841
Except the premise:
>undead hating all life
isn't true.
True in some cases, false in others.
Lich, vampire, mummy, ghost, necropolitan, and in my opinion, skeletons.
Skeletons ain'ts gots no feels. No feels, no hate all life.

For the record, I support the raising of skeletons. Not, zombies. Zombies are gross.

>> No.25637947
File: 182 KB, 492x712, 1355390784610.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25637947

>>25637863
I played a cleric/wizard true necromancer. That was pretty boss. Corpsecrafter feats broken, btw.
If I had to choose divine or arcane, I'd pick divine, cuz its tankier, and still heal and buff the party. But.. turn undead is pretty shitty in 3.5...
Just do what you feel.

>> No.25637960

>>25637863
Our DM had some house rules about dual-classing, mostly to cater to his girlfriend's desire to RP some sort of tragic Drow Pally-bard... don't ask.

Any rate, I was a Necromancer and took monk as a dual-class, thinking it would be silly. Because that sounds like a silly idea, right?

I thought it did. I equipped him with with some unfancy brass knuckles and set off on a quest to punch anything that endangered puppies, kittens, children, or vodka.

With my mastery of anatomy, from being main-classed Necromancer, and my affinity for spirits over zombies, I was either punching holes through them and pulling out their still beating hearts, or I would punch the soul out of them.

About half way through the campaign I got a weapon with armor penetration too. Then it was pretty much all over.

>> No.25637965
File: 497 KB, 300x177, I can get jiggy with it.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25637965

>>25633073
I love the boneyards, I love cemetaries
I love the passed on, I love the zombies
I love to raise dead, and all necromancy

boomdeyada boomdeyada
boomdeyada boomdeyada

>> No.25637979

>>25637841
>Necromancy is evil because the necromancer is creating monsters which will invariable kill all living things the instant he no longer holds the reins of their power.
That's why a responsible necromancer destroys undead that have no more purpose the same way a responsible boy scout puts out his fire.

>> No.25638038

>>25637925
>Skeletons are the animated bones of the dead, brought to unlife through foul magic. While most skeletons are mindless automatons, they still possess an evil cunning imparted to them by their animating forceā€”a cunning that allows them to wield weapons and wear armor.
Sorry, but you're wrong. Evil cunning is pretty much murderous undead thing, and that's your skeleton.

>> No.25638047

>>25629289
I really like the dark eye. German system tough, so you probably won't find all the rules in english.
But let's get to the point. Why do I like the necromancy of the game that much?
Well, it is morally grey, not black. Because you do, in fact, only heal. That means: if you're only a merely decent necromancer, you raise your generic dumb zombie. It's tough, it's somewhat dangerous in combat, but that's it. A more proficient man can instead achieve an undead who retains much if his or her original skill, be it swinging a sword, crafting something or brewing a potion.
But a truly proficient Necromancer is above that. Wide above. Because in a world, where death is permament if you don't get healed within 20 seconds of your death, he can resurrect you, even if there isn't much more left than a skeleton. Now, to be clear, you are still a skeleton. But you retain every single bit of your skill, no matter what it might be. But that's still not all, because you also retain your personality.
What else? Oh, there's an awesome range of possibilities to create undead, from stitching together limbs over raising simple bodies over summoning a demon into the body over mere alchemy.
So, if you speak german, dear Anon, my Advice would be: Play the dark eye. It's magnificient, and not only in prospects of necromancy and magic.

>> No.25638059
File: 474 KB, 1920x1080, gw116.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25638059

>>25634926
>>25634773

Guildwars (2) Necromancers [email protected] !

>> No.25638061

>>25637947
Your post shows you know nothing about 3.5e.

>> No.25638063

>>25636162
Some folks are born, made to cast them spells.
Ooooh, them sorcerers.
And when a band of rogues come on by
Oooh, they cast the fire at you, lord.

It ain't me, it ain't me.
I ain't no sorcerer son, lord.
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I am a necromancer, lord!

Some folks are born, talisman in hand,
lord don't they heal the sick, now.
and when the undead comes to the door,
lord, they whip out that smitin' skill, yeah.

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no clerical son, lord
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I am a necromancer, y'all!

Some folks inherit grimoires and scrolls
Oooh, they study long and hard.
And when the eye strain finally wears off,
Oooh, they only want to read more, more, more, y'all!

It ain't me, It ain't me,
I ain't no scholarly son.
It ain't me, It ain't me,
I am a Necromancer, y'all!

>> No.25638244

>>25637960
Holy shit you were a necromancer Kenshiro weren't you?

>> No.25638259

>>25637382
Isn't that like outsourcing the jobs to the dead? What about the common laborer?

>> No.25638279

>>25638259
They get the wheel skeleton if they complain? Really, if they've got a bone to pick with us, they should be sure to sign up for a good ribbing at the secretary.

>> No.25638286
File: 257 KB, 150x150, force smile.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25638286

>>25638279
dohohoho

>> No.25638311

I wouldn't mind playing in a setting where practicing necromancy eventually gets you cursed by the Gods, because you're breaking the natural order of things. Your dark deeds accumulate corruption stat, until one day you turn into a swarm of corpse beetles or something and cease to exist.

>> No.25638323

>>25638286
This is the final truth of all undead. That at the end of all things, they will spend 95% of their time making an unlimited number of horrible skull jokes.

>> No.25638338

>>25638323
That's a rotten attitude to have.

>> No.25638341

>>25638311
The dark eye has something similar. Whenever failing at using dark magic you get a number of corruption points. The higher this rises, the worse it gets. At the beginning it's slight decomposition of the body, getting ugly. Then a leg becomes useless. Later also mind-affecting things. And when the amount becomes to high, and you don't redeem yourself you may die.

>> No.25638356

>>25638338
If you don't have the skulls to make bad jokes you're totally boned

>> No.25638400

>>25638341
Also Burning Wheel has optional rules how magic use corrupts the body, you could look into that.

>> No.25638778

>>25629289
Is there a reason why necromancy works only on corpses of former living beings if creating mindless undead doesn't disturb dead soul on higher/lower planes?

>> No.25640511

>>25638778
On that note, if raising someone as a mindless undead DOES bind their soul to the body. Would it be doing a kindness to yank an evil person out of endless agony in the lower planes to suffer endless milder agony as a skellington?

>> No.25641185

>>25638778
Well, canonically, most systems do not have you yanking souls from the afterlife. I like

>>25635585
>>25634104

as a theory for why corpses.

>> No.25641374

Looks like The Dark Eye was published in English. Thanks random German anon, will check it out.

>> No.25642902

>>25635492
That entire game is secretly gold.
The Nature campaign is fucking wonderful, its AAA writing.
You play basically a elven court fop who eventually ends up, through a totally natural character arc, bringing the entire god damn elven Kingdom to its knees and then raising it back up again.
The guy is a stone cold motherfucker who changes over the course of the campaign from shallow nothing, to god damn hero.

>> No.25643189

>>25638059
worst necromancy

>> No.25643504

Hey guys, alternate idea. What if Necromancy is secretly power gained from breaking taboo? Like, not acts of evil, but specifically things that go against the perceived natural order of things? It would fit well with their focus on fear, the unknown, and especially explain why everything they is so grossss.

Like, maybe we have a situation where it's the necromancers promoting the idea that raising the dead is unnatural because breaking the taboo is what creates the power needed to actually do it.

>> No.25643599

>>25643504
That's be pretty awesome.
All necromancers, demonologists, cultist ect are getting their power from some kind of Anti-Gaia, who plans to usurp the normality of the world and claim it in her own shadowy image.

>> No.25643822

>>25642902
Heroes IV writing was so awesome.
I really wish the gameplay wasnt so shizophrenic. Also, combined cities is fucking retarded.

>> No.25643850

>>25643504
>the taboo against necromancy being propagated intentionally by necromancers

This would explain why I've seen so few of them fighting against the label or angsting about it in fiction.

>>25643599
That makes it sound a bit evil, but that's an interesting notion.

>> No.25643871

>>25643504
>grossomancer

Fund it.

>> No.25644026

>>25643822
It really is.
The mechanics are all kinds of stupid (Not as bad as V, barring tribes of the East, but still)
But the campaigns are beautifully written, ignoring the expansion packs.

>> No.25644173

>>25635031
Golems require a trapped, fully sapient, angry elemental to work.
Not only are you imprisoning an intelligent being against its will, but you're creating something on par with an intelligent undead in levels of hatred and destructive capability. Possibly even more destructive, just because you had to have your rape golem of dragon dildos.

>> No.25644295

>>25638047
I think in the dark eye necromancy is evil.
If you are not on Myranor (a different banch and made for more extreme DnD like action on a in-world far away continent) you are serving the arch demoness targunitoth if you want to bea a good necromancer, or at least use her powers regulary.
And thats bad becauset hese dudes want to destroy the world!You might end in the soul mill wheere youre soul is squashed and grinded for aeons until the tattered rags emerge at the end as a new demon.
And hey!Before that, if you use demonic stuff and raise dead you can come into contact with the uncreation that is the demons and see your life drained away until you contract the duglum pest, a horrible sickness that lets you shed your skin painfully until ath the end you might also end as a demon.
(Optionall though, this mechanic is called sneaking rot).
The good thing about dsa is , at least in former times, their catch phrase of phantastic realism.
If you are ded you are ded, maybe very string magic or demonic stuff can help.
Of those players normally have only access if you are a priest fo a god and sacrifice a chunk of ypur power you gained under hard, hard work or going the easy demonic way.And even then the gift is tainted.
One guy wanted his love back from targunitoth and he now is a rotting zombie looking guy and his ressurected wife is a even smellier cropse but he sees her as beutiful because targunitoth is also the godess of nightmares and bad dreams.

If you play with the normal rules you could not reasonably have this power.
At least in my experience.
And I think that it is good that way.
But hey whatever floats your boat.

>> No.25644413

>>25644173
Yeah but golems aren't implicitly evil.

>> No.25644446

>>25640511
Who says they experience agony as a skellington? Theoretically, all one would experience would be, well, nothing. With the exception of sight and maybe touch.

>> No.25644484

>>25644413
But enslaving a sapient being is.

>> No.25644802

>>25644295
I hate demons.

>> No.25644859

>>25632697
dread necromancer ends at level 8, becoming a lich normally is a better choice power wise
a cleric or wizard with access to libris mortis and complete arcane makes for a great necromancer
all this is for 3.5

>> No.25644864

Necromany, only a tool.
Like ...... atomic sience.
The theory and usefull apllaiances are many.
But the bad things that can be done with that knowledge..lh my...

>> No.25644974

>>25629289
>uncanny valley
Thats not what that means you fucking asshole

>> No.25645001

>>25644859
>implying a Wizard can be a decent necromancer

Cleric or Dread Necro are the only real options. Granted, Wizards get everything else in addition to Necromancy, but in terms of raising dead, Wizards suck.

>> No.25645037

>>25638061
except that corpsecrafter is broken, a wizard can, at level five, using fell animated acid splash, create a zombie with a strength score around 40 if he chooses to

>> No.25645071

>>25645001
a wizard necromancer doesn't get the army of undead as easily, but he can have a few powerful undead, and if you go with the uttercold build, be basically unkillable, plus you get access to pale master

>> No.25645107

>>25635496
>Human nature

All my lels, kid. All of them. You know nothing of human nature. There's not even anything I could say to fix you. You're stuck that way.

>> No.25645226

>>25645071
>implying a massive undead dragon is as cool as a horde of skeletons

Well, actually, you have a point. It's certainly a different style, but it's no less cool, I think.

>>25645037
You know, I hadn't considered using Fell Animate to have a low level animation capability. Excellent thought.

>> No.25645247

Lots of arguments as to why its evil for humans to animate other humans, but why animate dead humans anyway? Its a bitch to control that many zombies, it'd give people nightmares, and it can be argued to be a violation of your rights as a citizen.

On the other hand, animating the corpses of evil monsters is fine. Even if the soul is disturbed somehow, the soul of the evil monster is in Hell (or the Abyss) anyway. Since "respecting divine justice" is absolutely not no way a prerequisite for good alignment, its really hard to see why animating a dead dragon or giant to defend townsfolk etc. is bad.

>> No.25645266

>>25635492
>instead sent them a letter about their possible tactical misstep

I fucking love it when prominent characters are this fucking audacious.

Just imagine a roomful of nobles giving each other awkward glances and silently fuming at being made to look like complete and utter morons.

>> No.25645280

>>25645226
It just occurred to me that Fell Animate does not make the spell its used on Evil.

So this lets you raise dead without the act being considered evil by 3.5 standards.

>>25645247
Wee Jas was cool with people animating Bears and other animals, which is why I once built a character around reanimating swarms of rabbits.

>> No.25645334

>>25645280
>It just occurred to me that Fell Animate does not make the spell its used on Evil.

So it's nonevil to raise someone as a zombie if you killed them yourself with the express purpose of animating them. Glorious.

>> No.25645356
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25645356

>>25636081
FATHER OF MACHINES! YOUR FILIGREE GAZE CARVES US AND THE SCARS DANCE UPON OUR GRATEFUL FLESH!

>> No.25645482

>>25645280

Fucking great observation. Now we can have non-bone knight, 100% for real real paladins that can animate dead, unquestionably.

>> No.25645575

>>25636081
Check out the Cerebrosis "feat" (the only way to get it is free) from Dragon Magazine, gives you all kinds of cool Far Realmy magic.

>> No.25645589

>>25645071
Actually, wizards have the easiest time army of necromancering.

Command Undead. Lasts 1/day/level, mindless undead get no saves.

>> No.25645626
File: 298 KB, 1600x1155, MTG Order of Yawgamoth.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25645626

>>25636081
We have an Order for you great shaper.

You may come with us for a trivial price.

>> No.25645755
File: 53 KB, 524x797, 1290120535245.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25645755

>>25645482
>Paladin with Fell Animate

>> No.25645841

>>25645755
To be fair, you'd need to be clever with your feats to let a Paladin use it. Their spellcasting is shitty as fuck and Fell Animate is a +3.

>> No.25645867

>>25645589
Command Undead requires finding it yourself, though.

>> No.25645938

>>25645755
Now picture a Paladin casting a damaging Holy spell that reanimates the dead.

>> No.25646006

>>25645938
would he be able to control them though? controlling fell animated undead works like normal animate undead for controlling/creating.
regardless, the idea is amazing, and I may end up using it

>> No.25646088

>>25645841
Prestige paladin is not HORRIFYINGLY bad.

Especially when you take into account that one DMag article that has all them cool feats that make divine/arcane, and multiclass casters, more viable... shit like that lets you use arcane and divine caster level to improve a paladin mount, so a multiclassed paladin feels like more of a genuinely multiclassed paladin and less like a sorc that dipped just for the divine grace.

Also, I'm running an epic game (focus on defending at first the PC's fortress and then a planar metropolis growing around it, probably) about defending it from invasions of titanic-sized creatures, so stuff that helps create more defenders is warranted.

The cosmology is a bit odd, with the Far Realm substituting for the Outer Planes, so all celestials are really pseudonaturals, and so its entirely "normal" for paladins to have cerebrosis or other odd ideas of 'goodness'

>> No.25646098

>>25645938
So... to head off DM complaints about it being evil, you can actually apply this to spells with the [Good] descriptor. So even if he whines, you can make a good case for the result being neutral.

>> No.25646275

Does the Paladin code specify no casting dead, or does it just say no Evil acts?

>> No.25646344

>>25645867
The cleric can still animate infinity zombahs and give you the leftovers, you can animate them yourself, etc.

>> No.25646346

bump.

>> No.25646357

>>25646006

Ordering the undead is not a spell effect or an aligned effect, so yeah, he could control them.

Command Undead (The SPELL, not the ability) also doesn't have evil.

>>25646275
No evil acts. This prevents anyone, even by the rules-lawyer approach of saying "well BOVD says its evil," to call your paladin evil.

You can even awaken them later and redeem them.

>> No.25646465

>>25635079

Cool.

Thank you for teaching me something new.

>> No.25646535

>>25635492

this sounds awesome.

>> No.25646553

>>25635539

this guy doesn't even have to worry about the soldiers escorted them to the border killing him for disrespecting their king or rejecting their culture

>> No.25646562

>>25646535
It really is.
He waxes lyrical a bit sometimes. But it's by far the best necromancer campaign I've ever seen; and the nature one is by far the best druid campaign.

>> No.25646568

>>25635552

why with the land become worthless?

>> No.25646575

>>25646553
u w0t m8?

>> No.25646625

>>25629289
I don't think my transhumanism and your transhumanism are the same thing.

>> No.25646639

>>25635854
>I'll just leave this here


Wow.

That was sad and beautiful.

>> No.25646653
File: 127 KB, 1136x458, Necromancerfuckyou.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25646653

>> No.25646725

>>25646625
why man? Lichdom is a way to trascend humanity

>> No.25646771

>>25636081

How do you combine these kinds of things in a game anyway?

>> No.25646806

>>25636114

Yawgmoth was an exploitative petty asshole.

In fantasy settings that seems to let you do all kinds of amazing things so long as you use them to be a prick.

How do you make a character with those abilities who dosen't put them to use doing bad things to people?

>> No.25646828

>>25646725
>>25646625
And also they tend to go the cyborg route with replacing limbs they gather from various horrible beasties. Self-augmentation is a path.

>> No.25646832

>>25635979
The people calling necromancy evil, actually, are calling it evil without regard to consent, innocence, etc.

>> No.25646839

>>25646828
There is no definite path. Only a goal

>> No.25646863

>>25646771
Cerebrosis feat (which is free) for Far Realmy goodness.
Animate Dead if you are okay with evil spells, Fell Animate if you are not.
Normal Planar Binding can whistle up Pseudonatural creatures.
Renegade Mastermaker or Warforged to be a living construct.
There's various ways to get Graft Flesh.

>> No.25646878

>>25646806
PCs do bad things to people, almost invariably, and almost every single session.

>> No.25646904

>>25635967
Go home Nito you have too many skeletons

>> No.25646907

>>25636516

the problem with being an evil farmer is unless you are poisoning the food or you're taking the land that you farm away from other farmers are from some people who lived on the land before you took it it's kinda hard to use the farming to be evil. So you can definitely be an evil dick who is a farmer but you can get a lot more evil that effects large numbers of people or is both horrific and potentially enduring in a different profession.

>> No.25646909

>>25634154
you should purchase negative energy credits to offset your environmental footprint.

>> No.25646938

>>25634773
diablo 2

>> No.25646961
File: 424 KB, 900x900, 1352679679133.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25646961

>>25646904

>> No.25646964

>>25636750

living in a world where ideas thoughts and emotion create spiritual pollution that can lead to the developments of powerful spirits known as gods tends to lead to no end of trouble for humans.


Just look at the 40K universe.

>> No.25646986

>>25629289


Thank you for making this thread OP.


I am having a great deal of fun reading it.

>> No.25647021

>>25636516
Monsanto.

>> No.25647028

To everyone who says necromancy isn't inherently evil, you are wrong.

The reason creating golems and other constructs requires so much time, money, and an experience cost is because Necromancy takes a shortcut, binding the soul that once resided within the body to the lifeless corpse, denying them their rightful rest, and unable to partake of mortal joys.

If you say that in your setting the Necromancy is just empowering corpses to move about without any bonding of souls, then nothing stops them from using any other construct the same way, so Necromancers are just weirdos who use corpses instead of other things.

>> No.25647060

>>25647028
This is also why resurrection magic is not evil, but creating a zombie/skeleton is.

>> No.25647086

>>25647028

You're factually wrong, and haven't read the monster manual close enough.

MM, under undead and intelligence, it says "Only intelligent undead have, or are, souls."

So your explanation requires homebrewing it up a notch. Which would be a shitty homebrew, because there are already undead that have souls: the intelligent, destructive, and insanely deadly kind, that make YOUR soul fall off by punching you.

>> No.25647093

>>25638259

historically. being the laborer was a really really shitty job.

>> No.25647110

>>25646961
Papa Nito really is one of the cooler guys in the Dark Souls universe. If you kill him he doesn't even kick you out of his covenant like Gwyndolin or Alvina, he's just like "Congrats, bro! Here's a lord soul."

>> No.25647114

>>25647021
I ran a game of Werewolf where Monsanto was the main antagonist. We actually had a ton of fun and burned the place to the ground. Farmers are clearly a problem that must be rooted out at all costs.

Sage because not relevant to original topic

>> No.25647138

>>25637792

How did he muster the strength to punch that hard?

>> No.25647149

>>25637808

me too.

>> No.25647165

>>25635552
Is there way to commit to a path of sustainable necromancy as the Ermor.

>> No.25647172

>>25647086
The soul is obviously twisted and deformed by the process.

>> No.25647182
File: 412 KB, 900x1274, kinginyellow.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25647182

>>25647028
>implying

Damn. The shortcut exists, but easy does not mean evil. Hard doesn't mean good. It's a lot harder to be good in an evil world than it is in an evil world. It's easy to be good if you dedicate yourself to it.

On another note, I love every single one of you. I chose this trip and name because of my sheer love for the idea of a necromancer. Shoot, anything with undead. You guys are all my dear dear brothers in necrotic arms.

On a related and hopefully more accurate and/or re-railing attempt. Pathfinder, love it or hate it, I want to play an undead. Which particular "species" is the best to continue your long long life in. Incorporeal with Ghost touch equipment, bundling up to interact with society? Or maybe as a ghoul, with the Civilized Ghoulishness Feat. What will let me continue on in life, adventuring and growing with my comrades forever?

>> No.25647208

>>25633073
8/10

>> No.25647219

>>25647172
Yeah, no shit fucking with souls is a bad idea.

That's why its reflected in the rules (create undead/greater undead puts souls in corpses, creating undead that will leveldrain you, are not under your control, and can probably trigger a zombipocalypse).

Animate Dead unquestionably does not bind the soul and just yields robots.

>> No.25647232

>>25647182
It's evil because you forcefully bind an unwilling soul to servitude for eternity or until destruction.

And being evil is as simple as being selfish.

>> No.25647236

>>25647182
Ghosts are absolutely the most powerful kind of undead around. Moreso than vamps, liches, etc.

>> No.25647244

>>25637960
how did you overcome the monk's crippling problem with Multiple Attribute Dependance?

>> No.25647247

>>25647232

>It's evil because you forcefully bind an unwilling soul to servitude for eternity or until destruction.

Except "only intelligent undead have, or are, souls." - MM

>> No.25647258

>>25635932
the organs are not dead meat. They can be put to use elsewhere.

>> No.25647287
File: 190 KB, 760x933, successfulcarrioneater.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25647287

>>25647232
And being good is as easy as being a holier-than-thou prick. Are you dumb? Where does it say anywhere you bind souls into anything?? Basic undead is merely negative energy. Electricity in a damn robot. Intelligent undead you create are not under your control.

I really hoped you weren't a troll but it seems you are becoming a little obvious.

>> No.25647324

>>25638047

makes me wish they had this in english.

>> No.25647379
File: 1.36 MB, 1000x936, Please Venezuelan Poodle Moth.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25647379

>>25641374

Could you post a link to it please.

>> No.25647480

>>25647287
Not who you are replying to, but Negative energy is itself evil, and use of it to create creatures results only in evil creatures.

Being an evil spell, only or neutral divine casters could create them, hence, they will never be used for "just good."

A wizard of any alignment could also use the spells, but once again, the spell itself is evil and creates evil beings, a decidedly non-good act.

>> No.25647490

>>25636281
Fucking wiccans always make a distinction between white magic and black magic but the moment someone so much as cuts in front of them in traffic they break out the candles and lay a "curse" on someone fast as flash. Same thing as how some of them will claim they're not witches, but then refer to themselves as witches in the next sentence. They're fucking hypocrites.

>> No.25647584

>>25637601
zombies are the SUV's of the magical world.

>> No.25647603
File: 205 KB, 1024x768, creepyeel.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25647603

>>25647480
Then why are negative energy elementals neutral?

Elder Negative Energy Elemental CR 12

XP 19,200
N Huge outsider (elemental, extraplanar)

>> No.25647667

>>25647490
My wife has never even implied she's considered cursing someone, ever. So, uh, yeah. You wouldn't like it if someone made fun of your fedoras and bananas, so don't make fun of wiccans.

>> No.25647677

>>25647603
Where the heck did you get a negative energy elemental from or did you make that up? I don't think there is a such thing.

>> No.25647723
File: 103 KB, 500x500, alphaelf.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25647723

>>25647677
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-negative-energy-tohc/elemental-negative-energy-elder

1st link in google.

>> No.25647764
File: 162 KB, 500x238, BITCHUSERIOUS.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25647764

>>25647732
>1st post in thread by me talks about Pathfinder

No anon, you are the autists.

>> No.25647773

>>25645575
>Cerebrosis

This sounds cool.

What I have found on the internet talks about a cerebrosis spell list but I cannot find said list.

>> No.25647821

>>25647773
Dragon #330


GREAT fluff

>> No.25647859

>>25647764
>Implying I saw anything but the latest post while scrolling through the main page and reacted

>> No.25647911

>>25646575

The guy being escorted to the border of the kingdom.

>> No.25647928

>>25646625

Your statement makes sense to me.


Can you tell me about yours?

>> No.25647939
File: 123 KB, 672x712, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25647939

>>25647859
>implying a knee jerk reaction like that is reason to tell somebody to get out of a thread they are contributing to.

So I don't have to sage for off-topic: Preferably an undead with a spawning mechanic. I am in love with the idea of populating the world with little versions of you.

>> No.25647981

>>25646878

That is true.

Know anything that might help answer my question?

>> No.25647996

>>25646839

Dah. Is true.

>> No.25648015

>>25646907
Nah, just upsetting the natural ecosystem to harvest nutrients from the soil on a massive scale, Akin to draining a village of peoples souls a little bit each season. Even better if you enslave wild animals to aid you in doing so. Over time you'll breed the plants to give better returns from the soil. Even with crop rotation eventually you need some kind of fertilizer. So yeah, I could see a druid smiting a negligent farmer in the same way a paladin does to a necromancer.

>> No.25648097

>>25646863

I'm finding all kinds of interesting info on this scattered around the internet.

Know any place that has a comprehensive write up on it?

>> No.25648185

>>25647236

Not OR but please tell me more.

>> No.25648205

>>25647603

That eel does look creepy.

>> No.25648276

>>25647821

THank you.

Is www.scribd.com a safe place to download from?

>> No.25648570

>>25648276
As far as I know, yes.

>> No.25648604

>>25648097

I dunno what "it" is but the most comprehensive D&D thing I know of is... do a search for Ultimate SRD

>> No.25648671

>>25648604

It is the Cerebrosis feat

>> No.25648705 [SPOILER] 
File: 414 KB, 838x1200, 1354836491637.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25648705

>>25629289
>necromancy
>morally gray magic
So that's why my detect evil has been tingling whenever I scroll past this thread.

>> No.25648706

>>25648671


Dragon #330

>> No.25648711

>>25648604

Is that a wiki or a pdf?

>> No.25648720

>>25648705

If morally grey is a tingle, then what does actual evil feel like?

>> No.25648726

>>25648570

neat. is that where you got it?

>> No.25648751

>>25648720

Full on hardon

>> No.25648781

Skeletons > Ghost > Zombies

>> No.25648833

>>25648720
Like a fun night of improving the community through volunteer work purging of evil.

>> No.25648841

>>25648711
Its a zip file that includes an html browsable file that has a HUGE chunk of 3.x supplements

>> No.25649137
File: 34 KB, 400x400, negromancer.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25649137

>>25634926
try the necromancer class in ADOM. google it.
the necromancer class isn't for beginners

>> No.25650000

>>25648841

Is 1.6 still the latest or has another come out?

>> No.25650431
File: 360 KB, 1200x720, themonsterformerlyknownasarm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25650431

bampwith related

>> No.25651036
File: 727 KB, 1206x1805, Iris Fallen Necromancer by ArtofTy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25651036

>>25650431

Isis the Fallen was a necromancer and is apparently the pale chick in this thing.

>> No.25651101

>>25651036

looks like she either ended up becoming part of one of her experiments or one of her rival necromancers had a sick sense of humor and malice in their heart.

>> No.25651188

>>25651101
I saw it as zombie assisted masturbation myself

>> No.25651482

>>25651188
That seems to make more sense but then why are her arms being held and not her legs?

>> No.25651593

>>25651482
so that most of her weight goes to the crotch? or maybe she's just a kinky bitch? she IS getting fondled by a corpe-made horror you know.

>> No.25651625

>>25651593
For the former reason, it would make sense for her arms to be free. For the latter, her legs should be held too.

>> No.25651653

>>25651625
I really can't tell you the particulars of what specfic weird fetish people might have. Maybe she's just really bad at this?

>> No.25651761
File: 6 KB, 493x402, Angry.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25651761

>>25629289
One of the biggest disappointments I ever had in a game was when I rolled a necromancer. I got approval from the GM, made him Lawful Neutral, wrote up a backstory, entered the game. Another player I had never met was there, introduces himself, asks what I'm playing, I say wizard, and I'm going to specialize in Necromancy. He says "oh that's cool, can I see your sheet?" I hand it to him and he sits there for about three minutes carefully reading everything on my character sheet, which I found really weird but I was pretty new to gaming and trying to just go with the flow. Game starts, our characters introduce themselves, guy says he attacks me. The GM and I both ask him why, and he says "he's a necromancer, so he's evil. I kill him."

After about fifteen minutes or arguing about metagaming, the GM just decides it's "not his business" and so the guy attacks me. I turn invisible and leave rather than fight him, had to roll up a new character. Never got to play my necromancer.

>> No.25651788

>>25651593
>>25651482

It could just be a position she feels comfortable in.

either way that s one way to travel.

Your bodyguards, method of transport, sexworkers, and display of conspicuous consumption are all wrapped up in one undead package.

And no horses, driver, porter, or prostitute to feed.


Its might also be a great way to intimidate others.

>> No.25651842
File: 43 KB, 500x465, Worlds+Most+Expensive+Shoes+-+gold+shoes-Nike.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25651842

>>25651761

That.... that.... uhg.
Why did you bother rolling up a new character anyway?

>> No.25651870

>>25651482
>>25651593
>>25651625
>>25651653
>>25651788


for all we know its massaging her back, ass, inner thighs and fucking her.

>> No.25651904

>>25634098
Good call.

>> No.25651946

>>25651870
good point.

>> No.25651959

>>25651870
theres probably a bone dildo involved somewhere on the beast, possibly already in use.

>> No.25651992

I'm running a 3.5 campaign where my boyfriend's playing a Neutral Cleric/Bone Knight (his goal right now is to have as many minions as possible). She's his favorite PC. :)

>> No.25652059
File: 21 KB, 600x360, XUYKT.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25652059

>>25651870
>>25651959

>> No.25652144

>>25651992
>Bone Knight

Whats that?

>> No.25652171

>>25651842
Well it was roll up a new character, fight the other guy, or go home and do nothing. I figured I might as well stay for the game. Like I said, I was new back then, and stupid, like most new players. If that happened today I would probably flip off the player and the GM and just leave.

>> No.25652265
File: 17 KB, 128x256, class_sel_sm_medic_red.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25652265

If I want to create a character who can move, hit, and do crazy shit like a monk and channel positive and negative energy.

They can use the energy to heal or harm but can't use it to perform more complex things like a divine caster can. (though that can develop an outisde understanding of how other people accomplish these things they just can't do it themselves)

How do I do this?

preferably in 3.5 or Pathfinder but be interested in hearing aobut others too.

>> No.25652307

>>25651036
>>25651593
>>25651788
>>25651870


Does anyone else find it hot that she can take that, and possibly mentally guide the creature at the same time, all while maintaining her composure?

>> No.25652330

>>25652307
not me, I was using this as a thought excercize.

>> No.25652342

>>25652265

You want a monk who is a living medigun that has a reverse button?

>> No.25652359

>>25652342


Mechanically yes.

>> No.25652410
File: 638 KB, 1505x2264, VairePainting.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25652410

>>25652144
Obscure prestige class. Kinda like an Antipaladin.
http://dndtools.eu/classes/bone-knight/

Pic related; the character in question.

>> No.25652576

>>25637960
Storytime please?

>> No.25652849

>>25652576
>>25637960

seconded.

>> No.25652927

>>25652410


Thats pretty cool!


how do you have sex or carry a pregnancy to term, or give birth if your level 8 or higher though?

>> No.25652968

>>25652927
You don't.
Though, it has to be asked how one eats, too.

>> No.25653013

>>25652410

Oooo.


You seem to know your obcure classes and abilities.

Can you help me with this?
>>25652265
>>25652342
>>25652359

>> No.25653023

>>25652410

whats the story behind her familiar?

How did she become a bone knight?

>> No.25653212

How do you give a Paladin access to level 0 spells in 3.5? Is there an ACF or feat anyone knows about?

>> No.25653398

>>25653212
What does that have to do with anything?

>> No.25653408

Found the book with necromancer base class, 'Secret College of Necromancy'

Anyone have any thoughts on their version of necromancer? and how come I never hear of them?

Seems to me playing a necromancer necromancer might make more sense than a wizard necromancer or a cleric necromancer?

>> No.25653426

>>25653398
Fell Animate increases the spell slot by +3, so it's optimal to have a level 0 spell to stick it on, given how bad Pally casting is.

You could take a level in Wizard, but that's cheating somehow.

>> No.25653451

>>25653408
SCoN is a third party book, so it isn't treated as an option in many games.

>> No.25653458

>>25653408
It's bad.
Just, do something else. Dread Necromancer would be better.

>> No.25653464

>>25653451
Bah, dam. Well, thanks for quick answer.

Here's a link if anyone is interested.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/135317625/3-5-D-D-Secret-College-of-Necromancy

>> No.25653575

>>25653212
WotC is dumb, but they're not dumb enough to make a Paladin that gives something up for expanded spellcasting. It would just make its inferiority to Cleric even more glaring.

>> No.25653650

>>25653575
What about a feat that grants a level 0 spell to a class with divine casting.?

>> No.25653705

>>25653650
houserule it?

>> No.25653835

>>25653705
Houseruling is several levels more cheating than just taking a Wizard dip, I'd think.

>>25653426
Just use Easy Metamagic and Divine Metamagic. Spend your turn attempts to reduce it down to affordable. You'll be limited as far as uses per day, but you'll be bringing up a skelly pretty early.

>> No.25653847

>>25653835
>Houseruling is several levels more cheating than just taking a Wizard dip, I'd think.
What? Houseruling is all but a necessity. Taking a wizard dip is a weird anti-roleplaying build decision.

>> No.25654010

>>25653023
In the society she hails from, the undead are used as sort of a worker caste, and their ownership is constantly being transferred from one person to another. With this in mind, and the fact that it still advances spellcasting, Bone Knight made sense for this character.

The familiar (a chameleon with bat wings) is something I homebrewed up as a prize for reaching the laboratory of a sorceress queen in part 1 of my campaign.

>>25653013
The player suggests you look into the Shadow Sun Ninja prestige class; it's from TOB: Book of Nine Swords. His character did use both positive and negative energy, but being a neutral cleric with no deity is the easiest way to do that.

>> No.25654029
File: 39 KB, 467x311, Zombie grizzly bear 2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25654029

Does anyone else thing Zombie bears are a good idea?

>> No.25654056

>>25654029
Wrap some barbed wire around that thing and set it on fire and yeah.

In fact wrap barbed wire around anything that is undead and cant feel pain/bleed to death.

>> No.25654197

>>25654056

How does a lich get their armor to fit?

this is assuming they have levels in magus or spellsword or something similar and can cast and possibly fight effectively in heavy armor.

>> No.25654224

>>25653847
Well, considering the entire point is to exploit a legal loophole in the rules, employing homebrew would make it for naught.

>> No.25654258

>>25651992
>>25652410
>>25654010
here.

>>25654029
Yes actually! The player previously mentioned also has a skeletal bear minion that he insists on calling SkeleBear. He says his necromancer will eventually ride it into battle.

>> No.25654765

>>25644295
Well; i wouldn't really call it evil, as you don't have to use demonic powers. There's one spell that merely animates dead instead of raising them, which has nothing to do with Thargunitoth. Then, there's a potion for raising the dead which, to my knowledge, has nothing to do with the arch demons, either.
Yes, the classical way is related to demonic power. But there are others.

>> No.25655508

>>25640511
Well that depends if said evil person was an atheist or had a particular retarded god.

Most of the times evil gods also reward their followers in the afterlife.

>> No.25655762
File: 98 KB, 550x412, Archer-fate-stay-night-3312853-550-412.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25655762

>>25643599
>getting their power from some kind of Anti-Gaia, who plans to usurp the normality of the world and claim it in her own shadowy image
>Anti-Gaia
This explains why number of necromancers in any point of time is close to zero.

>> No.25657423

hmm, I'm going to re-read some old mythology, libris mortis and my john skip compendium of zombie short stories, and then write an RPG where everyone is a necromancer

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