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/tg/ - Traditional Games


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25011268 No.25011268 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Sup /tg/

What is the most complex system when it comes to firearm mechanics. I'm interested to run some mercenary-esque game for my group.

>> No.25011307

>>25011268
GURPS. It's pretty much gun porn when it comes to firearms and damage detail.

>> No.25011368
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25011368

I'ma look into it.

Meanwhile, I'll dump some *related* character art.

>> No.25011378
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>> No.25011387
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>> No.25011399
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>> No.25011401

Shadowrun, probably. There's an emphasis on gunplay there.

>> No.25011408
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>> No.25011416

Phoenix Command.

For non-autists, Shadowrun's very good for modern gunfight stuff, just strip out the high tech and magic stuff.

>> No.25011420
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>> No.25011421

You can't beat Phoenix Command for depth, detail and realism. It's virtually unplayable because of that, but I don't think it'd be possible to make an RPG with deeper gun rules

>> No.25011425

Twilight 2013

>> No.25011430

Phoenix Command.

>The game utilized lookup tables which resolve injuries to specific digits, organs, and bones, and simulates the physics of different attacks, such as bullets with different velocities.

>> No.25011436
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>>25011401
>>25011416
>>25011421

Thankee'.

>> No.25011444
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>> No.25011449
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>> No.25011462
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>> No.25011467

Another good system if you can get a hold of it is Millenium's End by Chameleon Ecclectic. It's a little chart heavy (you determine where you hit by using a body map with a transparent overlay) but if you want a crunchy game, I can't recommend it enough.

>> No.25011470
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>> No.25011480
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>> No.25011488

>>25011430
>Phoenix Command
Written by a rocket scientist (literally.)
Guy absolutely fails at RPG design, goes back to designing rockets.

>> No.25011489
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>> No.25011494

>>25011470
Dat Star of David.

>> No.25011513
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>> No.25011520
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>> No.25011534
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>> No.25011535

>>25011488
This. Phoenix Command is objectively correct. It's probably not what you want.

>> No.25011546

>>25011534
Is that a bullet magazine mohawk?

>> No.25011547
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>> No.25011558
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>> No.25011568
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This is one of my favorites.

>> No.25011576
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>> No.25011583

>>25011546
It's also a 20mm flak cannon.

I presume the artist doesn't realise that that sort of thing would snap the wearer's neck, but w/e.

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>> No.25011617
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>> No.25011624
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>> No.25011626

>>25011583
Well, that does look like some reinforced armour, so it could very well be supported just in that case.

>> No.25011627

>>25011583

One would assume the suit is reinforced.

>> No.25011633
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>> No.25011647
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>> No.25011655
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>> No.25011661

>>25011268
Didn't somebody start exactly same thread with exactly same picture some time ago?

And first answer was also GURPS and few post later Phoenix Command.

>> No.25011664
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>> No.25011676
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>> No.25011683
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>> No.25011691
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>> No.25011701
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>> No.25011704

>>25011661
well gurps is the sane option and phoenix command is the insane but correct one, so it makes sense.

>> No.25011723
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>> No.25011733

Phoenix Command +1. I've run it. It is ridiculously in depth and detailed. Don't use it both because it is ridiculously in depth and detailed but also because it is dated. No modern guns.

I will throw out The Company by d101 games. Maybe not as detailed as you are looking for but it does have the big gun lists. Most importantly, it is a modern mercenary game and covers all the that entails.

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>> No.25011750
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>> No.25011758
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>> No.25011778

>>25011268
Complex doesn't mean best?

>> No.25011811
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25011811

Anyone got a compilation of the Phoenix Command stuff ?

>> No.25011848

Use GURPS OP. High Tech has all the gun porn you could ever need.

>> No.25011901
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25011901

Dumping silly firearms

>> No.25011909
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>>25011901

>> No.25011932
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>> No.25011945

Yall niggaz need /k/.
Search for Ops and Tactics; its a completely free homebrew made by one of our friends over on that board. Has possibly the biggest listing of weapons I've seen in any rpg armoury.

>> No.25012002

>>25011444
Mercenary Cosomonaut?
Yes please.

>> No.25012008
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>>25011909

>> No.25012017
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I'm suddenly reminded of how many risk assessment sheets the master gunner needs to generate to show what he'll do should a Bradley's 25mm malfunction during a stabilized gunner.

>> No.25012066

>>25011909

Stay classy /k/ you magnificent bastards.

>> No.25012085
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>> No.25012098

>>25012017

Protip:

Never hammer the pin with a rock if it won't hold the weapon to the mount.

If the rock doesn't work you should DEFINITELY never use a round of ammunition as an improvised hammer.

Had to read one of these sitreps...(with pics of the aftermath)
Yeah it was a .50cal and not a 25mm but still...

>> No.25012119

>>25011626
>>25011627
I don't think you understand the force or size involved in a 20mm cannon.

>> No.25012160
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>>25012098
The horrendously hilarious stories my NCOs would tell me about privates doing stupid shit with their guns never ceases to make me laugh.

But yeah, joes using fucking 25mm and .50 cal rounds as hammers is very much fucking common for some reason. Though, my friend tends to like to fuck with newer mechanics by throwing them rockets used in an Apache's weapons mount and telling them it has a timed fuse once the fins pop.

>> No.25012234
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>> No.25012243

>>25012119
I feel like if the artist choose to make it a 20mm, he knew enough about it to know that the person's neck would need some serious protection.

>> No.25012247

>>25012160
Because its big and too many people forget that the round is still fucking dangerous even if its not in a gun.

I've seen some shit, man... and my buddy is an artillery guy. His stories are truly terrifying.

>> No.25012258

>>25012243
That's a silly assumption to make. Many people use words that sound interesting or 'military' without really understanding what it is they are doing. Just look how many hand-held Gatling guns there are without realizing the implausibility of such a device.

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>> No.25012318
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>> No.25012337
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>> No.25012376

Continue the dump of modern girls with guns comrades!

>> No.25012405

If you are Swedish I would recomend Neotech

>> No.25012436

>>25012405
Hell yeah Neotech! I love the living Falukorv out of that game!

>> No.25012452

>>25012436
I haven't played it myself but I love Eon like it was made of meatballs

>> No.25012471
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>>25011945
Ah, yes, that would be the one from which I snatched this pic.

>> No.25012515

>>25012452
Well Eon is nice too, little know fact Neo Games has their office on a small island in the baltic...

>> No.25012592

>>25011909
The fable shuriken magazine! It does exist!

>> No.25012772

>>25011401
Shadowrun is terrible at complex firearm mechanics.

>> No.25012823

>>25011661

Yeah, I did a week ago. Kinda funny that someone else did the exact same thing today.

Also having looked through the gurps tactical gun or whatever the supplement was called, I have to say....fuuuuuuuck that. Too many fucking modifiers.

>> No.25012871

>>25011945
> Not posting it here.
You can upload small PDFs on /tg/ you know.

>> No.25013524
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>>25011909
You think that's silly?

>> No.25013532
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>>25013524
We can do better than that.

>> No.25013553
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>>25013532
Glock is expanding out of the anti-personal grenade market and into the Cowboy Action Shooting crowd.

>> No.25013568
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25013568

>>25013553
1911 nerds won't know whether to love it or decry it as the worst thing ever.

>> No.25013592

>>25013524
That doesn't seem very silly to me. Yes, we found a more elegant solution, but the design is probably sound.

Also, it doubles as a harmonica.

>> No.25013600

>>25012247
One of the favorite pastimes on my COP was to crack the 240 ammo, make piles/trails of gunpowder, and set it off or try and blow various things up.

>> No.25013612
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>>25013592
I probably have sillier, but I'll be damned if I can remember what I saved them as.

>> No.25013615

>>25012318
Nice wrist-smartphone.

>> No.25013629
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>>25013553
>Glock
Good
>in .45 amerikanische clown patrone
>mfw

>> No.25013669

>>25013629
>not liking .45ACP

You some kind of faggot, son?

>> No.25013675
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>> No.25013682
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>>25013629
>>25013669

>> No.25013683

I have a silly gun to contribute, but it's painted in pony shit.

Is /tg/ going to get it's knickers in a twist if I post it?

>> No.25013706

>Phoenix Command
>"It was revealed there that, not only was Hugh Hefner a fan of role-playing games, but that he refereed a weekly Phoenix Command game at the Playboy Mansion."

holy shit

>> No.25013726

>>25013683
Yes, yes they will. So prepare for hilarity and post that piece of shit!

>> No.25013731

>>25013683
I already know which one you mean. Jimmies have been preemptively rustled.

>> No.25013736

>>25013731

Fuck it post it anyway.

>> No.25013740

>>25013683
That original one from WWII?

>> No.25013745
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>> No.25013751

>>25013731
>>25013740
It's been seen. It was bought and immediately restored to its original state, so all is well.

>> No.25013756
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25013756

>>25013726
>>25013731
>>25013736
>>25013740

>> No.25013762
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25013762

Fuck all of you.

>> No.25013763

>>25013745
Hello, shitty!
>>25013751
I love happy endings.
>>25013756
*hurk*

>> No.25013767

>>25013762
>Gun-mace
Why isn't this a thing everywhere?!

>> No.25013771

>>25013762
Is that a gun mace?

I hate the idea of gunblades, but this. . . this is alright.

>> No.25013774

>>25013767

Because it's french.

>> No.25013789

>>25013774
Not agai-*Hurk*
I didn't prepare a second barf-bag.

>> No.25013801
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>>25013771
Rifles make for great polearms

>> No.25013893
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25013893

>>25013706
I hope this is true. 10/10 would operate with Playboy Bunnies.

>>25013745
Oh, that reminds me.

>> No.25013904
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25013904

>>25013801
What about a javelin?

>> No.25013961
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>>25013801

>>25013904

I believe yo ugentleman were looking for this

>> No.25013972

Deadlands can get pretty clunky and intricate with its gun and combat rules. Different calibers and actions, automatic fire, hit locations, even how different holsters effect your ability to draw quickly. You'd just have to do some work adapting them to more modern firearms.

>> No.25013984

>>25013904

That's the Mosin Nagant, and it's an exception to all the rules.

It's basically a portable, indestructible handheld artillery piece.

>> No.25014001

>>25013984
The more posts like this I see, the more I wonder if the Mosin Nagant is truly the katana of guns

>> No.25014011

>>25013961

Stupid fucking samurai, didn't satsuma teach them anything.

Gun > Katana

>> No.25014026
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25014026

>>25014001
That's horseshit, the Nugget is still actually useful in the present day, whereas the katana is not.

>> No.25014046

>>25013904

Can you tell a Mauser Rifle from a Javelin?

>> No.25014050

>>25013745
That is an impressive level of "I don't give a fuck."

>> No.25014056

>>25014046
>Can you tell at sight a Mauser Rifle from a Javelin?

>> No.25014096

>>25014046

Pretty sure that isn't a Mauser.

>> No.25014134

>>25014046
>Mauser

Mmkay.

>> No.25014154

>>25014096
You fail at song referencing.

>> No.25014300

>>25013904
>light the small fuse
>throw the javelin
>it impales itself into your enemy
>and then, just as he realises he's been impaled by a javelin, the fuse burns out and it shoots him in the chest

>> No.25014446

>>25014300

A shot point blank from a Mosin Nagant would instagib him, and spray everyone within 10 meters in a fine, red mist.

>> No.25014451

>>25014001
>>25014026
Anyone willing to give a rundown of the mosin-nagant's advantages to a weapon's noob?

>> No.25014512

>>25014451

Realisticly speaking,

>cheap as fuck (except fuck is not cheap but ..you get the picture)
>Ammo cheap...too
>solid build and wont require much cleaning
>will opearate smoothly without much maintnance,reliable
>very long range, add a scope and you made yourself a sniper rifle.

>> No.25014515

>>25014451
It's cheap. It's more rugged than an AK. It fires huge bullets. You can find them everywhere.

>> No.25014519

>>25014451

Realisticly speaking,

>cheap as fuck (except fuck is not cheap but ..you get the picture)
>Ammo cheap...too
>solid build and wont require much cleaning
>will opearate smoothly without much maintnance,reliable
>very long range, add a scope and you made yourself a sniper rifle.

>very good stopping power, far better than ak and m16

>> No.25014526

>>25014451

/k/ here.
Its cheap. As its a bolt action, reliable. The cartidge is between a .308 and .30-06 in power, so its potent enough for most large game.

>> No.25014555

>>25014512

>3-6moa rifle
>"sniper"

pick one

>> No.25014578

>>25014451
It's a bolt action rifle, and it's cheap as fuck.

It has no real advantage over any of the other bolt-action rifles of its day.

>> No.25014600

>>25014515
>>25014519
>>25014526

Cool beans, so how does it stack up compared to an AK?

>> No.25014605

>>25014451
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Mosin Naggat" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine Mosin Naggat in Russia for a bottle of vodka and a shoelace (that's about $0.30) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even shoot through slabs of solid steel with my Mosin Naggat.

Polish children spend 10 minutes working on a single Mosin Naggat and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest barrels known to mankind.

Mosin Naggats are thrice as powerful as European guns and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything an AR-15 can shoot through, a Mosin Naggat can shoot through better. I'm pretty sure a Mosin Naggat's bayonet could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why Europe never bothered conquering Russia? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Soldiers of the glorious Soviet Uniion and their Mosin Naggats of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the Mosin Naggats first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Mosin Naggats are simply the best gun that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the shooting power of Mosin Naggats in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Mosin Naggats need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

>> No.25014625

>>25014519

>stopping power

/tg/ please, youre better then this.

>> No.25014681

>>25014600
It doesn't.

I'll reiterate all the main reasons just about every gun owner has a Mosin Nagant or at least has shot one before:
It's a CHEAP but decent bolt action rifle
It's cheap
and it's cheap

>> No.25014719
File: 379 KB, 1408x989, ak vs AR vs nugget.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25014719

>>25014451

It's one of the cheapest long rifles in existence, since most of eastern europe was turning them out by the warehouse load for... shit, forty years? More?

Seriously, if you pay more than $120 for one and it's not, I dunno, Simo Hayha's rifle you're getting ripped off.

It's extremely rugged, and requires very little maintenance. You might need a 2x4 to work the bolt, but that bolt will outlast you, your children, and quite possibly their children as well.

It fires the 7.62x54r cartridge, which was also tuned out by the warehouse load, and so also comes very, very cheap.. This round is fairly powerful; most things that take a hit from it don't get back up.

The only exception to this is whales, and that's just because nobody's tried it yet.

>> No.25014721
File: 200 KB, 1000x3573, AR15 AK47 Nugget 2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25014721

>>25014451

>> No.25014733

>>25014600

AK is semi automatic, so much higher rate of fire.
The AKs 7.62x39 is distinctly less potent than the nagants 7.62x51, though its still good against man sized targets.

Its one of the most reliable actions out there, but its not particularly accurate. The ergonomics are fairly substandard. Charging handle on the right side of the receiver, stock pistol grip is for people with girly hands. Saftey could be made better.

There are updated version of the AK that are far more ergonmic, more accurate, etc.

And of course the AK will hold a subsantial amount more rounds.

>> No.25014739

>>25014625

More accurately, entirely more likely to kill a fucker dead in one shot.

>> No.25014744
File: 120 KB, 500x719, Simo_hayha_honorary_rifle.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25014744

>>25014555
It's not an exaggeration.
The only difference between the sniper's variant and the standard is a bent bolt, to allow a scope to be mounted,

>> No.25014769

>>25014719
How do they fare VS modern day bulletproof vest?
Say 3 hits from AK burst (quite possibly out of all 30 bullets fired) vs sigle hit from Mosin.
What's more likely put man down?

>> No.25014771

>>25014739

you can kill anyone with anything dead with one shot, aslong as its in the right spot, and can penetrate that spot.

>> No.25014806

>>25014719
I've had some problems with my bolt sticking when using steel jacketed rounds. Then /k/ showed me this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLL20Oh4P8M
with a little file work my bolt sticks no more

>> No.25014831

>>25014771
Sure you can kill someone with a .22, but it's a hell of a lot easier with 7.62X54R

>> No.25014837
File: 213 KB, 1280x960, 1366959419597.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25014837

>>25013756

Fuck you.

>> No.25014854

>>25014769
Depends on what kind of vest you're talking about. If you're talking about a light concealable vest, both rounds will penetrate. If you're talking about those big obvious military vests, both rounds will still penetrate. If you're talking about the plate inserts that go over the chest and back of modern military vests, neither of them will penetrate.

In other words, even though the Mosin Nagant undoubtedly has the more powerful round, most modern vests are designed to stop both types of round from penetrating - or not if they are a lighter vest meant to only stop pistol rounds.

>> No.25014856
File: 363 KB, 320x240, Happy angel.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25014856

>>25014837
There is a god.

>> No.25014863

>>25014681
Not helpful. Remember, gun noob. Comparitives are required. See this fella >>25014733, he gets it.

>> No.25014872

>>25014769
>Say 3 hits from AK burst (quite possibly out of all 30 bullets fired) vs sigle hit from Mosin.

A single bullet from either round is enough to put a man down. Though, the Mosin Nagant will be more likely to drop large game if you're out hunting.

>> No.25014877
File: 705 KB, 1770x804, K98 Ponyfied.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25014877

>>25013756

That was fun thread over at /k/.

>> No.25014918

>>25011268

GURPS 4E with Tactical Shooting is probably going to be the best, I don't know if it's the most complex.

>> No.25014948

>>25014771

But you're assuming perfect accuracy. I'm assuming averages.

On average, with 1000 rounds fired at 1000 men at 100 yards by an average marksman, the Nugget will result in one-round kills more often than most modern battle rifles.

That said, there are 101 other considerations for what weapon to field beyond "round kills shit dead".

>> No.25014955

>>25014863
It's cheap compared to an AK-47, AR-15, M1911A1, Glock 18, Uzi, Steyr AUG, Remington 870, Ruger mk. II, P90, Ruger Blackhawk, Ruger LCR, S&W Model 29, G36, FN FAL, SCAR-L, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M14, and MG-42.

It's very cheap.

>> No.25014958

>>25014744

They also picked the most accurate rifles that came off the assembly line for sniper duty, not all of them will work as well.

>> No.25014973

>>25014877
psst
It was a replica to begin with

>> No.25014983

>>25014958
True, but the average weapon still won't (usually) deviate too greatly from a fairly accurate standard.

>> No.25014985

>>25014605
you missed one katana

>> No.25014996

>>25014948
How is this a defensible statement? Most "modern battle rifles" use a comparable cartridge, and are as accurate or more accurate at 100 yards than your average mosin.

>> No.25015025
File: 151 KB, 1600x1200, 303 get out of here, you belong in an enfield.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25015025

>>25014769

Well, this is something you would be better off asking /k/.

Furthermore, this is all shit I've heard over the years and by no means accurate. However.

There are different levels of bullet proof vests. For example, the stuff that cops wear is generally I or II, soft body armor, and is only good (again generally) for lower to intermediate pistol rounds. Most rifle cartridges will fuck its shit up en mass.

Military grade stuff, plate in plate carriers, can and will stand up to 7.62x39mm... there's even one that will stand up to.30-06, which is comparable to 7.62x54r, but it's hella expensive. John Doe the grunt will usually get the 7.62x39mm pate, which probably won't stop 7.62x54r.

The ceramics military grade plate is made of also have a possibility of cracking after a round or two, although they're looking into how to prevent this.

So the answer is, it depends on what kind of armor he's wearing.

>> No.25015042

>>25014769

Shot placement is King
Adequate penetration is Queen
Everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins.

>> No.25015046

>>25014996

I think he doesn't know the difference between "battle rifle" and "assault rifle"

>> No.25015074

>>25015025
>Military grade stuff, plate in plate carriers, can and will stand up to 7.62x39mm... there's even one that will stand up to.30-06, which is comparable to 7.62x54r, but it's hella expensive. John Doe the grunt will usually get the 7.62x39mm pate, which probably won't stop 7.62x54r.

They must've worked out the supply/funding issues than from when you last heard. As one of those John Doe grunts that you mention, I got the plates that could stop the 7.62x54r. And so did everybody else I deployed with.

>> No.25015118
File: 2.99 MB, 452x254, Kissing your brass goodbye.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25015118

>>25015074

Yup, my info's out of date then.

Thanks for correcting me

>> No.25015125

>>25015074

Same here, the plate I received when I first go to the fleet were rated to 7.62x39 AP, now they're rated to 7.62x54R.

>> No.25015509

>>25014948

you need 'perfect accuracy' with most anything.

a .50 bmg still wont stop someone if youre only shooting them in the gut.

hits to the CNS followed by heart/aorta axis are the only reliable lethal targets, if youre not hitting vitals, the only thing you can count on is them bleeding out over the next few hours.

>> No.25015545
File: 2.85 MB, 445x247, Laughing Soldier Girls.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25015545

>>25015509
>a .50 bmg still wont stop someone if youre only shooting them in the gut.

>> No.25015575

>>25014555

It was the rifle used by Vasily Zaitsev in WW2. Ever heard of him?

>> No.25015578

>>25015545

stop getting your info from anime and video games.

>> No.25015622

>>25015578
A .50BMG to the guts will disembowel somebody.
Are you sure you're not confusing it with .50AE? That's a pistol round.

>> No.25015650

>>25015622

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-457132.html

>> No.25015665

>>25015509
You have no fucking clue what you are talking about and your stomach is one of the most vulnerable parts of your body: tons of important organs barely protected

>> No.25015672

>>25015622

a .50 bmg to the guts would go strait through and through.

id be more worried about the .50 african exterminator, since hes probably more likely to be using expanding rounds.

>> No.25015682

>>25015665

shooting someone in the stomach will not stop them, they might die later, but thats not 'stopping power'.

>> No.25015688

>>25015672
It might go through and fucking destroy most of the organs in your stomach during the process

>> No.25015696

>>25015682
Uh-huh, keep thinking you know what you're talking about

>> No.25015704

>>25015682

You stand about 50 yards over there.

I'm going to shoot you in the gut, and you run over here and try to kill me.

>> No.25015716

>>25015696

what do you know?

in what way is the stomach involved with respiration or innervation?

>> No.25015724

>>25015682
I think a .50BMG will impart enough energy to destroy the core muscles, which would take them out of the fight. Not to mention massive organ trauma and blood loss.

>> No.25015730

>>25015716
Your liver needs to be on the inside if you want to live.

>> No.25015739

>>25015688

high velocity fmj rounds do not impart the majority of their energy in targets due to over penetration, and even when they do, 'energy dump' is not a wounding mechanism, human tissue is very flexible.

>> No.25015753

>>25015730

so your solution to stop an armed combatant or charging muger is to hope they die from septicemia or toxic shock?

>> No.25015785

>>25015575

He was using a hand selected, high accuracy rifle. The rifles issued to average troops wouldn't be nearly as accurate on average.

>> No.25015823

>>25015753
No, my solution is to trust that a burst of bullets with 13,000 pounds of force in each one is enough to stop anything dead in its tracks. If the .50 BMG was crap at killing people, why are so many of the longest range kills in war done with it? If it's no good at stopping enemy combatants, why do we fit them on Strykers?

>> No.25015880

>>25015823

you use larger more energetic rounds because they have longer range and more penetration.

if i wanted to kill someone, id trust a three round burst of 5.56 more then one shot of fifty cal, more chances of hitting something important and stopping them in their tracks.

>> No.25015955

>>25015880
> three shots have more of a chance of hitting something important than one shot
Well, yes. Three shots is three times more likely to hit something important than one shot. That's how multiplication works.

>> No.25015964

>>25015955

so you understand my point of view then.

>> No.25015985

>>25015880
It isn't just the size of the bullet hitting you that determines its stopping power, dude. The cartridge of a 50BMG as a whole is designed to deliver a colossal amount of kinetic force. The cavitation alone will turn that relatively small bullet into a dinner-plate sized hole in your torso.

>> No.25016038

>>25015964
What about 3 rounds of 5.56 versus 3 shots of .50 BMG? Then you have exactly equal chances of hitting something important. Because the number of bullets fired is the same.
Hey, did you know that nine shots of .50 BMG is three times more likely to hit something important than 3 rounds 5.56?
Your point of view is based off an unequal comparison.

>> No.25016052

>>25015985

energy dump is not a wounding mechanism, and most of it is unrealised regardless due to over penetration.

>> No.25016080

>>25016038

lets see how much 5.56 i can carry vs how much .50 bmg you can carry.

better yet, lets see you fire a burst of .50 bmg from the shoulder.

>> No.25016288

>>25015985

>the cavitation alone...

lol. That's not how that works. Take your mantis shrimp weaboo self and get out of here.

>> No.25016305

>>25016080
I can carry a lot of it in the Stryker my gun is attached to.

>> No.25017485

>>25012017

You do know the M242 Bushmaster hardly ever malfunctions right?

>> No.25017747

>>25015575
Versions of it were also used by Simo Häyhä and Lyudmila Pavlichenko.

>> No.25018200

>>25016305

if youre going to use that argument, why are we not just calling in arty on their heads.

and now that we mention it, the BGs usually need to be fixed and suppressed for optimal fire support, i wonder whether a few big rounds or alot of smaller ones would work better for that too.

>> No.25018293

>>25018200
Because a BMG can put its ordinance where you want it a lot faster. Why would you bother wondering whether a few big rounds or a lot of smaller ones would work better? HMGs and Assault rifles have a pretty comparable rate of fire. wouldn't it be "a lot of big rounds" or "a lot of small rounds"?

>> No.25018435

>>25018293

because strykers are expensive and cant go everywhere, and grunts usually have a hard time carrying loads anti-materiel rounds


regardless, the whole point is that the relative differences in effect due to caliber or velocity is negligible in comparison to the relative differences in effect due to shot placement and penetration. everything else is dancing on pin heads.

>> No.25018675

>>25018435
>because strykers are expensive and cant go everywhere, and grunts usually have a hard time carrying loads anti-materiel rounds
But you're just moving goal posts. The original point stated was "a .50 BMG wouldn't stop someone if you hit them in the gut". And it fucking would. People stop when you shoot them. Even a .22LR can stop someone if you shoot them close enough. And then you started going on about how a lot of bullets is more likely to hit a vital point than less bullets, which is true for any two calibers. 100 rounds of 50 .BMG is more likely to hit a vital target than 50 rounds of .38 special, but less likely to hit a vital target than 500. No shit, that's how math works.

But there is still a large difference between different calibers of weapons, and no amount of human factor will change that. A shot from a .50 BMG will fuck your shit up more than a 5.56 in the same area. When comparing hardware, you can't say "well one guy's a better shot, so this is better than that". That's what Deadliest Warrior does.

>> No.25018783

>>25018675

>The original point stated was "a .50 BMG wouldn't stop someone if you hit them in the gut". And it fucking would.

no it wouldent.

>But there is still a large difference between different calibers of weapons

no, a few fractions of an inch does not a difference make when your shots are a few inches off.

>A shot from a .50 BMG will fuck your shit up more than a 5.56 in the same area.

if it doesnt hit vitals, it wont kill him, if it does, hes dead, thats really all there is too it.


also, high rof is bad for suppression.

>> No.25018875
File: 91 KB, 450x430, Rifle_cartridge_comparison.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25018875

>>25018783
>no, a few fractions of an inch does not a difference make when your shots are a few inches off.

I'm not >>25018675 but you've pretty much nailed yourself as pretty ignorant of how firearms and bullets work. It's not the diameter of the bullet that matters all that much, it's how much gunpowder is behind the bullet which dictates how fast it goes when it is shot. A faster, heavier bullet does more damage.

Look at the pic. That is .50bmg (on the far left) compared to 5.56 NATO (second from the right). The .50BMG has A LOT of powder behind it, ergo a single .50BMG will cause lots of tissue damage and go right through a human target if it hits because it's going VERY FUCKING FAST and the bullet is MUCH HEAVIER than the 5.56

>> No.25018936

>>25018783
>if it doesnt hit vitals, it wont kill him, if it does, hes dead, thats really all there is too it.
You should not speak about things unless you have facts to back yourself up.

>> No.25018937

>>25018783
> no it wouldent.
If a bullet enters a person's body, you're going to slow him down. The more energy in the bullet, the more it's going to slow him, to the point where he stop.

> no, a few fractions of an inch does not a difference make when your shots are a few inches off.
Even if a shot is not a perfect dead-center heartshot, getting shot in the lungs will put a man down for the count.

> if it doesnt hit vitals, it wont kill him, if it does, hes dead, thats really all there is too it.
See above.

> also, high rof is bad for suppression.
Not that I said anything about RoF, but the RoF of an HMG is actually fairly low in most cases.

>> No.25018944

>>25018783
Have you seen what a .50 BMG does to a person? We are talking XBAWKSHUEG chunks of flesh, muscle, and bone practically liquefied. This post of yours here just demonstrates your complete ignorance on the topic. Please stop talking now. Your privileges have been revoked.

>> No.25018967

>>25018875


we've already been over this, temporary cavitation is not wounding, plus over penetration.

would you like me to quote Dr. Roberts at you instead?

>> No.25018975

>>25018937
>If a bullet enters a person's body, you're going to slow him down. The more energy in the bullet, the more it's going to slow him, to the point where he stop.
No. Small bullets can have a considerable amount of energy and over-penetrate. Energy alone isn't going to be a measure of damage to a human... though it is generally a good indicator.

>> No.25018992

>>25018967
>would you like me to quote Dr. Roberts at you instead?

Go right ahead.

>> No.25019020

>>25018967
By all means, quote GKR.

>> No.25019057
File: 132 KB, 864x568, 50blka.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25019057

>>25018944

note the lack of any exceptional cavitation untill about 9 inches in, when the round begins yawing.

>> No.25019110

>>25019057

Sooo....it's hilariously lethal vs. fat people.

>> No.25019166

>>25019057
Are you SURE that's .50 BMG?

Because this is:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/50BMGslowmotionvideo.htm

>> No.25019181

>>25011268
Probably FATAL but why would you want that?

>> No.25019205

>>25019166

that is also using JHPs, which are illegal for military use.

>> No.25019209

>>25015509
You are an idiot, have you ever seen anyone after they've been hit by a .50? If you hit someone in the gut with a .50 he wont have a lower back.

>> No.25019218

>>25019205

and as an aside, not suited to the fifty cals role anyways.

>> No.25019256

>>25015739
The force of that round impacting you body would not only rip out your organs but would definitely knock you down. Their is no "through and through" with larger caliber small arms. It's through and a big hole in the back from the force of exit. Do a google search for ballistics of a .50 BMG and try again later

>> No.25019285

>>25019205

Got there before I did.

The video uses Hornday AMAX which use a polymer tip so they expand on impact like a HP round.

>> No.25019290

>>25019256

people dont get knocked over when they are shot like in movies.

>> No.25019294

>>25019256

Welcome to the discussion, glad to see you just got here.

>>25019057

>> No.25019349

>>25018783
a .50 BMG shot to the gut would not only take him complketely out of the fight but would kill him in short order. I've seen guys take 4 or 5 shots from 5.56 to even fall down. I don't know where you get your information from but it is inaccurate. It's hard to move when you don't have a spine from the .50 blowing your gut out your lower back.

>> No.25019367

>>25019290
But they do fall down.

>> No.25019431

>>25019367

yes they do, often forwards infact.

because thats the direction theyre going usually,

>> No.25020197

>Firearms.
Explosives are way, way more important.
The role of infantry is lost when your target is nothing more than a smoking crater.

>> No.25020568

>>25020197
>The role of infantry is lost
They've been saying that for dozens of years now. And yet we still need some guy with a rifle to go out and do stuff despite the explosions.

>> No.25020733

>>25011307

No, it isn't.


Phoenix Command is the king-daddy of firearms simulation.


Though, for a less "charty" & "number-crunchy" system, try to find the old Warpworld, Timespace, and Timelords games by BTRC (from before the EABA generic system). It was a great system with very good combat mechanics and damage simulation.

>> No.25021559
File: 216 KB, 700x1050, 1281333259361.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25021559

So... is it too late to post more pictures of chicks with guns?

>> No.25021612
File: 484 KB, 667x1000, 1281344123287.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25021612

>>25021559
Because if it's not...

>> No.25021678
File: 139 KB, 624x424, 1281349362463.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25021678

>> No.25021715
File: 937 KB, 500x281, 1364522436866.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25021715

>>25011489
>>25011387
>>25011378
>>25011268
>>25011368

asian women with guns >_<

>> No.25021753
File: 62 KB, 427x480, 1356296001626.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25021753

>>25014733
> the nagants 7.62x51,

god you are so lucky you aren't posting on /k/

>> No.25022146
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25022146

>>25021715

>> No.25024984
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25024984

>> No.25028915
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25028915

>> No.25028927
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25028927

>> No.25028938
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25028938

>>25028927

>> No.25028956
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25028956

>>25028938

>> No.25028988
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25028988

>>25028956

>> No.25029027
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25029027

>>25028988

>> No.25029038
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25029038

>>25029027

>> No.25029847

>>25012471

>range of IMI Tavor
>80 ft.

REALISM, FRIENDS

>> No.25032790

>>25029847
I doubt that's its max range. Lots of systems give a range, and for each increment over that range, you take a penalty to hit due to the difficulty of aiming at that distance.

>> No.25035289

>>25032790
The effective range for a tavor is about 600yards, only after that do you see a decline in ballistic performance.

80ft is basically 25yards which is the standard engagement range for pistols. Most people can hit man sized targets out to 100yards without problem with a rifle w/ irons

>> No.25035811

>>25035289
>Most people can hit man sized targets out to 100yards without problem with a rifle w/ irons
In a combat situation?

>> No.25035890

>>25035811
the funny thing about combat is that the farther away you are from the other guys, the easier it is to shoot them. It isn't a linear progression of difficulty.

In any case it should really be handled by the skill system and not by the item system

>> No.25036068

>>25035890
>the funny thing about combat is that the farther away you are from the other guys, the easier it is to shoot them
When you don't have to worry about his three friends also shooting at you and have time to line up the shot, maybe.

>> No.25036090

ITT: /tg/ pretends to know how guns work

>> No.25036135

>>25036090

you mean just like the times when /tg/ pretends to know about historical warfare?
Or when /tg/ pretends to know about computers?

>> No.25036203

>>25036135

Exactly. /tg/'s greatest fault is that most people on here grossly overestimate their own intelligence.

Whenever I see a "stat yourself" thread, there's always a ton of people with 16+ INT
And almost never does anyone rate their INT below 10.

>> No.25039608

>>25036203
to be fair INT has a realworld scale and 10 basically means you're not retarded

>> No.25040723

>>25011416
>Phoenix Command.
>You can't beat Phoenix Command for depth, detail and realism. It's virtually unplayable because of that, but I don't think it'd be possible to make an RPG with deeper gun rules

NOPE IS NOT

How it works

Guy that made phoenix command released sword path glory book 1, it came with a red cover it is a fantasy setting
He release again on a white cover and then release 2 aditional books, the white cover one has less tables those games are medieval fantasy ones.

Then he decied to make less complex games to build a audicence for sword path glory
He makes Rhand Morningstar Missions, that is a future setting and less complex than sword path glory
Then he makes Spectrum small arms that is a nowadays setting and with some future stuff (weapons listed there) that is less complex than sword path glory
then he releases phoenix command that is less complex (but newer version of phoenix command are more realistic and complex than old oder, unlike sword path glory case) the setting is nowadays (but there are books with western weapons and,ww2...)
then he releases living steel, that is futuristic, it is less realistic than living steel, but he made the book in a way that you can fully use it with phoenix comand without losing nothing.
SO THE ONE YOU NEED TO SELECT IS SPECTRUM SMALL ARMS

>> No.25043335

bump

>> No.25043356

Fuck GURPS.

You want the ultimate /k/ RPG, that isn't Phoenix Command?

Ops & Tactics

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Ops_and_Tactics

>> No.25044956

What's that one with the anthropomorphic animals that was made by ex-mil?

>> No.25045461

Albedo, that's it. I've not played it myself, but the word around /tg/ is that it is in those respects correct [but, to the amateur, overly so thus complicated].

Of course this is hearsay, but...

>> No.25045512

>>25011494
It bugs me to no end, enough to nearly ruin the whole picture for me
What conceivable reason could they have for stamping a Star of David on the side of the helmet

>> No.25045811

>>25045461
So who knows enough about this "Albedo" to talk about it?

>> No.25047169

>>25045811
Anybody? Anybody? Bueller? Bueller?

>> No.25048151
File: 592 KB, 1558x1634, 1358644643212.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
25048151

>>25045512
the artist is probably a jew or a jewaboo(not even joking about these guys, they exist)

>> No.25048259

>>25048151
>jewaboo
You mean christians?

>> No.25052341

bump

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