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24219305 No.24219305 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

I'm generally a fan of Star Trek but the Federation is a socialist Utopian fantasy

>> No.24219314

Your point?

>> No.24219318

Who cares?

>> No.24219328

Well, yeah. They're basically post-scarcity in a lot of respects.

>> No.24219334

I do.

>> No.24219341

Which works out great except for all the times when humans have to interact with basically every other species.

>> No.24219347

>Not being a socialist utopia in a post scarcity environment.
Dude, do you understand how economies work?

>> No.24219362

I doubt any institution on the far future would ever use political terms from the modern age. It would be like seeing a feudal overlord calling your president, "the king" and factory owners "guild masters".

>> No.24219369
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And who cares about your opinion?

No one. ]spoiler]Not even your mother does - she lied to you.

>> No.24219370

>Federation says it doesn't believe in money. If you want something, you can get it via replicators.

>If you want something, you can press a button and get it.

>A button.

Every man, woman and child in the Federation would be a colossal fat ass. They would have no space program because they would have no need for it - they wouldn't care about strange new worlds when there's all day orgies on the holodeck.

Prove me wrong.

>> No.24219374
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True, but even from the perspective of a capitalist realist, the Federation is a far preferable philosophic alternative to many other 'socialist utopian fantasies.'

If you compare the Federation to, say, The Culture, the former is less repulsive in almost every way. The Federation is a socialist utopia because the technology exists to easily make it one. There's nothing wrong about that, if we had machines that made everything for us, we'd be post-scarcity too, money has no meaning if there is no shortage of anything. The important part is, they're still a moral (oftentimes alarmingly so) people, they have principles, ethics, respect for other cultures, and most importantly it is a society of people, living people, who are in charge of their own destinies. They're explorers artists and scientists, not the hedonistic gerbils of godlike AIs. They're what the ideal society of people would be if they had infinite wealth--which they effectively do. They're tolerant, they don't project their culture onto others--even weaker, less developed ones--and rape other civilizations into being more like them. They're not insidious, they're not arbitrary, they don't compromise their ethics. They're a society that even I, a fairly conservative person, would have no problem seeing our culture evolve into. They're austere, they focus on things that matter, on defining the meaning of their existence through good works, exploration and expansion of knowledge. They reject the idea of being slaves to anyone, even people who are genetically created to be superior--they shut that shit down!

Gene Roddenberry was a godless commie, sure, whatever, but he was a goddless commie who wanted a future that was respectable, moral, and ultimately human. He didn't want people to stop being people, he wanted people to be all that people could be. It might be a utopian fantasy, but it doesn't taste like orange juice after toothpaste, and that's a hell of a lot more than you can say for some.

>> No.24219389

The Federation is just a very early stage of The Culture.

>> No.24219398

I do.

>> No.24219407

And Republican Rome was a very early stage of Berlusconi's Italy. What a society can devolve into later doesn't change its beauty.

>> No.24219413

That's the point. Everyone on the Enterprise is there because they want to be. It's a hobby.

To other species, the Enterprise would be a warship. To the federation, it's merely a civilian vessel.

>> No.24219416

This wand WALL-E always pissed me off about that: This is hundreds of years into the future! Advanced Medicine means you're not gonna keep those pounds!

>> No.24219422

You mean there's people out there who actually volunteer to be red-shirted ensigns?

>> No.24219426
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That's kind of the point dude. It's like saying "I like Victorious but it's about attractive barely legal girls singing and dancing". Well no shit.

>> No.24219427


A society that advanced would surely have some way of combating weight gain. Fat-eating nanomachines, non-intrusive liposuction, metabolism enhancing drugs etc.


The game Endless Space actually explores something similar. As you advance up the tech tree, you eventually reach a technology called Permanent Vacation, which essentially says "What happens when everything required for a civilization is produced by immortal self-replicating machines? Labour becomes optional, and the biggest issue becomes what to do with your spare time".

Essentially, a sufficiently advanced society will almost inevitably reach a socialist utopian point due almost solely to money ceasing to have any meaning. When labour can be carried out for zero cost, realistic economies completely vanish.

>> No.24219429

>implying there would be anything fattening about magic space food
>implying the implications of them exploring space instead of holodeck fucking means anything other than all those people haven't gone to the depths of depravity on the holodeck and gotten bored with it

>> No.24219444

Why should I have to prove you wrong? My contention is that the Federation cannot function as a post-scarcity society because they still require goods and services from other races, for which they need money or at least something of value to barter; and it has been stated repeatedly that replicated foodstuffs, the cornerstone of this allegedly post-scarcity society, are noticeably inferior to the real thing.

In point of fact, Deep Space Nine pays lie to the notion of the Federation as a functional society almost every single episode - or is there some other reason that Federation officers would deal in Ferengi currency?

>> No.24219449

I see two possibilities.
One, biotechnology. Nobody wants to get pregnant, so they vat grow babies. These babies are genetically engineered to have a strong satiety response, and an enhanced desire for new information.
Two, government control, like in the Traveller First Imperium. People can get anything they need, sure, but to get things you just want you need to be cleared for it. You only get these privileges by doing useful work. Since they're working a difficult, possibly dangerous job where much of the time they're under energy rationing, Star Fleet personell are allowed to get pretty much anything they want, so they describe life as being a utopian socialist post-scarcity world, since for them it is.

>> No.24219450


Moreover, in developed nations obesity is often a product of poverty. If you can get quality fruits and vegetables and other foodstuffs from your replicator (not the GMO wack ass shit like we have at the store) without paying the premium prices we would, hardly anybody's going to be huge.

>> No.24219454
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Your opinion doesn't matter and your opinion is that your opinion matters.


>> No.24219468

The point of the Federation is that it was a post-scarcity society that came to the inevitable, logical conclusion that decadence is bad. It weakens a civilization, it lessens the people in it, and it debases the authenticity of the people within it. The Federation established a strong ethic of civic service, it encouraged austerity and robust, virtuous conduct over mere hedonism. You never see colossal fatasses in the Federation because their society is Eudaimonic, it isn't built around consumption of resource, but rather around human potential, and meeting that potential -using- their plentiful resources.

The Federation is impressive precisely because its people are not having depraved honey orgies in the holodecks, they really seem more like puritans than a decadent society of weaklings, because they're not decadent at all. To the contrary, the self restraint and the motivation that these people all seem to show suggests that they have somehow culturally overcome decadence and the desire for decadence. Not through genetic engineering either, but because they wanted to. Because as a society they reached a degree of intellectual ability, education, and zeitgeist in which despite having no need to explore, study, create, learn, fight, they choose to. Not all of them, of course, Starfleet is like 1% of the population, but the rest seem pretty healthy as well.

>> No.24219471

But your claim of "no one" caring about my opinion is demonstrably false by the fact that I care about it, therefore invalidating your claim that my opinion is worthless due to nobody caring about it.

>> No.24219473

Yeah. First person to go explore a planet.

Of course people would volunteer. It's risky, but if they didn't want risk, they'd stay at home in the holo-orgies.

>> No.24219476

>Scared of GMO's

Why do people do this? There's nothing wrong with a tomato that can grow anywhere. It's not chemically enhanced or anything, it's just part of its biology.

I mean seriously. It's like what happened when we came up with mosquitoes that could vaccinate against smallpox and everyone said "HOLY FUCK I SAW DAT MOVIE" and shot it down.

At least consider the benefits before you trash it.

>> No.24219486

They never stopped to question why exploration ships required new ensigns so often?

>> No.24219488
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Not when the entire ethos of the Federation is self control.

Regardless, comparing or quantifying humans as you know them to future humans in a fictional history in a fictional universe of extenuating circumstances is the height of silliness. The humans in the Federation are every bit as alien as any other grey fucker with face make-up that's on the show.

>> No.24219489

If I haven't to deal with any kind of necessity, I would probably take my replicator and go see things. It's not like I would have many other thing to do anyway. And I can see things in space ??? Why the fuck would I remain in my home masturbating ? SPAAAAAAACE !

>> No.24219490

See I would be inclined to believe you if it wasn't canon that the Federation hires rapists and general morons with poor impulse control.

Let's face it; post-scarcity is a buzzword. The human race is, by and large, a society of happy brutes lorded over by the elite in their space ships.

>> No.24219491

But anon, you're no one.

>> No.24219495

Ok wait. I did see that movie, that sounds like the EXACT sort of thing that ends you up shaking a guy by the collar of his labcoat screaming "WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU!?" as the mosquito-plague wipes out all of humanity.

I mean, I'm not afraid of bio-engineering, I think it's the future, most def, but you can't be surprised when you come up with a horror movie plot and then propose it seriously.

>> No.24219496

>They're tolerant, they don't project their culture onto others--even weaker, less developed ones
Uh, isn't the Prime Directive to not interfere with less-advanced civilisations? Which 95% of the Federation seems to ignore?

>> No.24219499

>comparing or quantifying humans as you know them to future humans in a fictional history in a fictional universe of extenuating circumstances is the height of silliness.

The discussion was framed as a philosophical debate on the effects of post-scarcity.

Trying to trivialize it just makes you look silly. We're having a good discussion.

>> No.24219502


arn't modern 1st world armies volunteers though

>> No.24219503

Wait, rapists? Not doubting you, but who was that? Kirk? He wasn't really a raaaaapist, more of an aggressive nuzzler.

>> No.24219505

> And Republican Rome was a very early stage of Berlusconi's Italy. What a society can devolve into later doesn't change its beauty.

Are you somehow implying that Federation is good, and Culture is bad?

I can see the logic in calling Culture decadent (it is), but for the purposes of its inhabitants, it's pretty much a utopia.

>> No.24219512
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You're acting like a female in the company of James T. Kirk.

The harder you try, the worse it becomes.

>> No.24219514


Except the usual side effects are that it tastes like ass and is less nutritious, and that's assuming the modifications are to your benefit, and not to force farmers in the Third World to buy seeds over and over again, or allow them to spray toxic herbicides on it to no effect. Monsanto fairly recently released some crop (wish I still had the article) designed to be resistant to one of the two Agent Orange compounds so they could spray their fields with it to kill weeds. I've been to Vietnam and seen Agent Orange victims up close. And they want to do that here??

>> No.24219517

Yeah. That's the point. I mean, they only ignore it on-camera supposedly, it's supposed to be the prime directive and all that. They don't try to force others to be like them, though they willingly deal with people who have warp technology and find them, they don't go uplifting civilizations for the lulz.

>> No.24219518

Because GMO crops are controlled by shitty evil companies who are actively trying to control and monopolise agriculture globally and are using genetic modification to create DRM for seeds, essentially.

It's like anything good in this world, someone will find a way to exploit it and make it evil and shit.

>> No.24219521


I agree. That shit would be a blast for like a month and a half and then you'd be looking for something constructive to do. Like Starfleet. Don't confuse what we'd do with some time off work with what we'd do with all our time off work.

>> No.24219525

Pretty much, yeah.

The biggest killer in Star Trek is boredom. People join starfleet to do something, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go to where no one has gone before.

>> No.24219529

That's about as overblown as Kirk fucking anything that moves. Pro tip, he didn't. The only reason the Prime Directive is violated at al is due to writers needing to make episodes with aliens that aren't boring to watch. Furthermore,the only one that did it constantly was that trollop Janeway.

>> No.24219531

>Very next episode he tells Troi's annoying mother to shut up.


>> No.24219532

>Except the usual side effects are that it tastes like ass and is less nutritious
>the rest of it

>> No.24219540


Check out "The Windup Girl". Awesome sci-fi book that's essentially based around that idea.

>> No.24219543

It's called rationality. Deal with it.

>> No.24219544

I am, in fact, a person. Your accusation of me not being somebody are without merit.

>> No.24219547

Can we not use Monsanto as GMO's spokesman?

It's like using the East India Company as a figurehead for modern shipping practices. We all know Monsanto is controlled by Tzeentch, that doesn't disqualify GMO's from a serious discussion.

>> No.24219548


There's a difference between political stifling of speech and simply socially shouting someone down. This is a distinction most Internet morons do not quite get. No one has to like what you say, as long as you're not actually prevented from saying it.

>> No.24219553


Compare a store strawberry to the (teeny) real kind and tell me it's the fuckin' same.

>> No.24219554


Don't forget though that there is huge social prestige in even being accepted to Starfleet. These people are the best of the best. In a world without money as a reliable indicator for status, social prestige would no doubt be a huge motivating factor.

That and I suspect there would be an equally strong social stigma against just doing nothing in the same way that those dependent on welfare or benefits are stigmatised today.

>> No.24219563

It's a utopia, but it's a contemptible utopia. I am not calling it a bad place to live. By all accounts it's a pretty nice place to live, but from my philosophic standpoint, it is an undesirable model of society, whereas the Federation is totally desirable. This is a philosophic difference that we may have. I am not really calling one society or the other 'evil', rather I believe that we should strive for one, and avoid the latter.

>> No.24219566

>No one has to like what you say, as long as you're not actually prevented from saying it.

Picard used his governmentally approved power to shut someone up.

I don't see much distinction, despite my being an "Internet moron" as you say.

>> No.24219572


They control the vast bulk of the market. So yeah, I think we have to use them as GMOs' spokesman, because they're the ones using them, almost without exception. You can't really talk about a technology and ignore who's using it in practice and how.

>> No.24219579

Currency as a sort does exist within the federation. There are several notable canon sources mentioning the "federation credit" and Officers in DS9 have their pay converted to GPL.

Replicators are basically free, but people are still wiling to pay for personal services and art/crafts such as restaurants, art, antiques, and such, and certainly for trading with other races.

But it appears that it's entirely possible to survive within the federation living on replication alone and never needing money.

>> No.24219610

'When in Rome' is an accepted fact of life in regards to humans of the federation when surrounded by aliens that don't entirely share the same goals. That's why most of crew on DS9 used GPL, it was simply more convenient when dealing with so many separate species.

>> No.24219626


Dude that is the result of mass production, and strict appearance requirements laid down by major supermarkets because of fussy consumers. A normal store bought strawberry is not GM precisely because of said fussy consumers.

GM is more about creating crops that need 25% less water than normal, allowing more of currently margnal crop land to be opened up to dirt poor farmers. Or save them money on pesticides. Or create plants that actually improve soil rather than deplete it.

Monsanto aside that GM.

It has nothing to do with ranks or Walmarts identikit Barbie fruits.

>> No.24219636

>They're tolerant, they don't project their culture onto others--even weaker, less developed ones--and rape other civilizations into being more like them.

How this is supposed to be a virtue for any advanced civilization, never mind a civilization that is a genuine utopia? Bringing a culture that is pretty much better in everything to others can only be considered a bad thing when it is a fake goal, a simple pretext for conquest and plunder.

I agree with the rest of your post, though.

>> No.24219647
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Monsanto food products are not engineered to be nutritious, they're engineered to survive Monsanto brand pesticides and herbicides. Any nutritional value found in them is purely coincidental.

>> No.24219659

Kind of like how antibiotic resistant bacteria, arn't more dangerous, they just survive the antibiotics.

>> No.24219667

I think the ideas more that they let civilisations make their own minds up as to whether to adopt federation views or not, rather than cramming federation down their throats.

>> No.24219668

because people prefer to choose, the Klingons never joined the federation, because it would make them appear weak, also remember the shit the Bajorans kicked up simply having starfleet HELP them.

>> No.24219671

Clearly you do not, as that IS my point. I believe that it is virtuous for the same reason that I believe that civic responsibility is virtuous, that a tireless striving for self improvement is virtuous, that humanity being master of its own destiny is virtuous. The federation is beautiful because it became what it was of its own volition. Even the Vulcans didn't -force- humans to become the way they are, the humans alerted them to their presence, they came down and talked, and then mankind worked its way up the ladder to become an austere, eudaimonic post-scarcity utopia.

Forcing a lesser culture to adopt your own is tyranny. It's pure tyranny. It's arrogance and it deprives that culture of its dignity and its right to find its own path to the stars. What if that culture would have developed into something even greater than yours? Now you don't know, because you pasted your own culture on top of theirs. The Federation has a history of trying things like that, and them ending in goddamn disaster. People can't be uplifted, not really, they need to be allowed to grow until they can seize their own destinies. They have to take that first step. You can't take it for them.

I don't want to be the Greyjoy in the room, but basically I'm saying that something given has no value, and when you're dealing in cultures, this cannot be ignored.

>> No.24219679

I would just like to add that you should always wash your fruits and veggies; there are rarely bathrooms in the picking fields.

>> No.24219684


>> No.24219688
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Yeah, implying people won't just engineer scarcity to keep the economy up.

>> No.24219691

You're pirating game from people who hack game because they want to. They don't gain anything from it. They just want to do it.

You're seeing Chinese cartoons subbed by people who sub because they want to. They don't gain anything from it. They just want to do it.

If you're using a superior Operating System, you're using a system born from passionate people who created it because they wanted to. They didn't gain anything from it. They just wanted to do it.

You're a fucking lazy fatass; that's your problem, man. In fact, the large majority of the population is not like you, and that's where there is hope for humanity.

>> No.24219693

tastes bad
nobody is forcing peasants to buy from Monsanto
The herbicides do kill the non-resistant plants. Do you even farm?
The chemical you are trying to think of is called Round Up and it isn't Agent Orange.

>> No.24219694

>the only one that did it constantly was that trollop Janeway.

Janeway was under unusual circumstances. Not only was her ship plucked from one end of the galaxy to the other by some horny old alien, I believe said ship was also designed for *short* range missions. Nothing like what the Enterprise-D was meant to do.

>> No.24219695

It's communism as Marx envisioned it

>> No.24219706

You mean like operating a vinyard when anyone could whip up a bottle of wine?

Or going out to see something dangerous, when you could live out your own personal action movie in the holodeck?

>> No.24219707

... 'but' it is?
Why is that a bad thing? By your words, they've achieved the impossible.

>> No.24219709

For 500 points, who can name the alien race in this picture AND the television show they were on.

>> No.24219717

What freedom? You mean the thing people rightly give up to be part of every society ever conceived?

>> No.24219723

Hey, I've said already, I'm actually a pretty conservative guy. The behavior of my ideal socialist utopia is not the behavior of realistic, 21st century states. I'm not making judgments about present day cultures and the complex prisoner's dilemmas they've engineered for themselves. I'm saying that in the distant epochs of the far future, the ideal society will work like X.

I'm also not saying that you need to think like I do. This sort of thing basically demands that everyone see it differently.

Example: For me, Starship Troopers and Star Trek contain identical moral messages. Think about that for a second.

>> No.24219725

>I can see the logic in calling Culture decadent (it is), but for the purposes of its inhabitants, it's pretty much a utopia.

The Culture is a Brave New World, except run by superhumanly competent AIs, who are good enough at subtle social engineering, that make a completely decentralised society take unified decisive action is not even difficult for them. If your goals in life are limited to eating, fucking, and consuming popular entertainment till the end of your days, the Culture is an utopia to you. If you actually want to accomplish something in your life, you have to deal with the fact, that said supercomperent AIs > you, and your every reaction is probably calculated before it happens.

>> No.24219728

No you imbecile, not that freedom. Operation Enduring Freedom.

>> No.24219735

You're my kind of man. I agree wholeheartedly.

>> No.24219736

Yet the Minds are constantly suprised by the projects Culture citizens dream up and do. Take the gondola's in the desert from Look to Windward, the Mind of that ring was suprised people attempted it

>> No.24219737

Speaking of The Culture, isn't Banks dying? Bloody shame. Never been a huge fan, but I respect his work.

>> No.24219739

But you are an anon, and everyone knows we're all fragments of a single person's mind, so you are, in fact, no one.

>> No.24219754

Funny, that. I respect the man. I loath his work.

>> No.24219755
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I know, and it is glorious. I can't wait until the future where we are like this.

>> No.24219756

Sure, she had legitimate reason to do it, I'm just saying that any time everyone else did, it was due to writer fiat. Janeway did it in a much more necessity driven way, her violation was an organic requirement within the premise of Voyager, the others did it because that was simply the episode in which it was engineered to be violated.

>> No.24219761

I think it's a bit extreme to compare it to an intentionally written dystopia. And I'm the guy who's been speaking 'against' it for this whole time. I'm not calling it an evil society, and I don't think that's really fair. It's a possible reading, but I feel it's too strong.

>> No.24219778

Earth Final Conflict, they are Taelons.

I watched it because Boon as cool and Lili Marquette had some really nice tits at the time. Also, Ronald Sandoval was a badass until he became a mustache twirling faggot.

>> No.24219782

That's... Sort of what I meant. I mean that I didn't like his work, but I respected his skill as a writer. He's not bad, certainly. I just disagree with him on what constitutes an ideal society, that sort of thing.

Loathe is a bit strong though. I mean... He's been worse lately, his older work is much better, but I don't really hate him. Like, I hate Terry Goodkind's work. (I actually don't hate Terry Goodkind) I don't think I -hate- anything that Banks has ever wrote.

>> No.24219784


Taelons, Earth: Final Conflict

>> No.24219788

didn't Lily debunk that?

>> No.24219807

When you develop a technology like replicators, there is only one of three possible outcomes:

1) For some reason or another, it is buried and burned, never to be used again.

2) It stays firmly in the hands of a select few, who use the incredible resources it provides to hold firm control over everyone else

3) It becomes commonly available, and the entire society becomes post-scarcity

>> No.24219808

This thread is like Mr. Rogers and Jesus debating Utilitarianism.

>> No.24219809

Nuclear Holocaust following decades of totalitarianism, what economy is there left?

>> No.24219810

In Star Trek, humanity has evolved to a point where everyone works and learns simply to better themselves and improve the world around them instead of just thinking for themselves.

>> No.24219811

Honestly, the part where they're ignorant and disdainfull to past economic thinking (economics hold no meaning to them, since they were given the technological means to let everyone live in plenty... they didn't work for it, they were given it once someone came up with the warp drive)... they see themselves so superior because of this, yet, without the goose laying golden eggs for them, they'd be back at square one again.

>> No.24219816


I just realized that, in the event of their meeting, Mr. Roger would probably start by thanking Jesus for all of his good work and then proceed to treat him like he treated everyone else.

That makes me happy.

>> No.24219819

watch Voyager Episode Living Witness. Any Doctor Episode.

>> No.24219821

>If you actually want to accomplish something in your life, you have to deal with the fact, that said supercomperent AIs > you, and your every reaction is probably calculated before it happens.


What you do is join Special Circumstances...if you are good enough.

You will still be a tool, but one who is capable of accomplishing things.

>> No.24219832

My point is.. they didn't evolve at all. They were given technology that solves all of todays problems

>> No.24219835


Well, world war 3 did mess them up pretty bad. We almost didn't survive it.

Traditional lust for wealth and power lead to war, and that war almost destroyed them entirely. The reason that the modern federation mindset has been drilled into them is because they know all too well the dangers that "past thinking" can and will cause in the long run.

>> No.24219838

I'd like to remind people that Replicators cannot perfectly mimic everything, there are some things they cannot make without plot macguffins nor can they actually make things as simple as food that tastes as good as the real thing. This is why Picard valued his family vineyard, both as a familial pride and the fact that any year of replicated wine did not taste as good as the real thing. This is also why Neelix exists, as the show went on, most of the Voyager crew preferred his cooking to their replicators because it tasted better.

>> No.24219840

>Honestly, the part where they're ignorant and disdainfull to past economic thinking

They're not disdainful to past economic thinking. They are only disdainful to the present economic thinking - where hundred of people die in Africa because a bankster wanted to buy a third boat.

Economics, the science, is the managing of resource, and it is obviously desirable and noble. Economics, the travesty there is actually, is a cancer, a tumour, slowly killing humanity.

>> No.24219849

That's really the difference actually. Special Circumstances is the Culture's starfleet analogue (the way for humans to matter in the grand scheme of things)... And it's basically Section 31. It's a morally questionable group of morally questionable people working towards morally questionable ends.

In Star Trek, Section 31 is an abomination, in The Culture, it's the only way for people to matter. This is the natural followthrough of the societal models.

>> No.24219852

Damn, they do... I'd never thought of it like that before.

It shows though, if you think about it, that the same values can crop up in all sorts of situations, be it a glorious socialist utopia (Star Trek), or a seemingly military-based fascist/limited-plurality regime (Starship Troopers).

>> No.24219856

that would be the case if we hadn't seen that society forming in TOS & ENT before it got replicators and holodecks

kirk acted like that when his enterprise expictly used non replicated food (tribbles in the food stores) with occasional mentions of tech something like a modern 3d printer for things they didnt have in storage

>> No.24219863


Nope. Replicators took a long time to perfect, originally being only industrial tools and slowly being adapted to the personal omni-maker seen on TNG.

Humans joined the Federation, started following the prime directive, and started exploring the universe before replicator technology was available to them.

They didn't start post scarcity.

>> No.24219868

Technology was what did away poverty though, not evolved thinking

>> No.24219877
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I know right? I swear, it's this sort of reason I love /tg/. Anyway, I should've been asleep four hours ago, so I'm going to leave it at that. You've said it better than I could. I've already used my thumbs up picture for today, so you're going to have to make do with a thumbs sideways. High five champ.

>> No.24219884

But thumbs up in the context of that picture means you want to kill us all...

>> No.24219888

Human started the federation

>> No.24219891


In Star Trek, whether you think it makes sense or not, our tech is not what saved us.

It was First Contact. The realization that we were not alone in the universe, and we could be part of something greater. That fighting amongst ourselves until we exterminated each other on our tiny, insignificant planet when there was a whole galaxy teeming with life out there to explore was the dumbest thing ever.

This revelation came in the wake of a terrible war that had left us exhausted and in the dumps. Left to our own devices, we almost certainly would have just rebuilt ourselves into another collection of warring nations and spun the wheel around for another go. Instead, First Contact provided a motivation to unify and start getting shit done.

>> No.24219896
File: 1023 KB, 200x190, 1364434082857.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

/tg/: Highly reasoned debate on complex social conjecture. And sometimes monstergirls.

>> No.24219903

> That's... Sort of what I meant. I mean that I didn't like his work, but I respected his skill as a writer. He's not bad, certainly. I just disagree with him on what constitutes an ideal society, that sort of thing.

The two last Culture novels (Surface Detail and Hydrogen Sonata) have been slightly worse than the former ones, mainly due to (what I believe) Banks falling too much in love with his scifi-society he can no longer think up convincing opponents for it. The Culture became to represent superheroes in superhero fiction - in a bad way.

As for ideal society, I think that's actually been somewhat deconstructed in the books themselves. Many factions in the Banks' scifi universe call on Culture for being decadent and hedonistic, mostly for proper reasons.

Federation does not really postulate the same kind of consequences of a post-scarcity world since it does not include powerful enough AIs. Humans seem to still perform all the essential functions within the society.

Culture paints a more plausible picture of what humanity would become like should all inhibitions and wants become removed. If everything that can be achieved is already achieved, what is there to do but eat, fuck and consume popular culture?

I think it's kind of like a mirror to the soul. That having all our wishes granted would actually turn us into something we would despise if we saw it now. The fact that this conclusion is slightly uncomfortable is what made Culture interesting in the first place.

>> No.24219906
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>> No.24219917

Not just humans.

Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, and several other races all created the Federation.

But then magically all those different cultures just adopted human culture and made humans the leaders.

Humans in Star Trek are a race of Sues.

>> No.24219918

>Star Trek
>First Contact. The realization that we were not alone in the universe, and we could be part of something greater. That fighting amongst ourselves until we exterminated each other on our tiny, insignificant planet when there was a whole galaxy teeming with life out there to explore was the dumbest thing ever.
>provided a motivation to unify and start getting shit done.
>getting shit done.

That's just made me think... if joining Starfleet is a volunteer thing... wouldn't /tg/ make up a pretty large chunk of Starfleet?

That both scares me, and fills me with joy.

It's explain the crazy people and murder-hobo captains/crew, though.

>> No.24219927
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Sleep well, friend anon, and know that at least one person here appreciates your exquisite mind and discussion skills.

>> No.24219929

I see fascism thrown up a lot when speaking of starship troopers, and I do not see how people get that at all.

Maybe it is because it is told from the perspective of military members, but that wasn't the only way to earn franchise. I seen to remember the book either stating or implying that most received franchise through the other forms of federal service as well...

>> No.24219932

Not to mention the past before said war, this is a place where Khan came from, who was a totalitarian bio-genetically engineered superhuman that became ruler by killing or subjugating all the other superhumans and therein subjugating most of Earth. The stigma behind the horrors of old Earth are exactly why Julian Bashir kept his being engineered to be better a secret for so long.

>> No.24219937

>Humans in Star Trek are a race of Sues.
well, we kinda are in real life.

>> No.24219942

Future ain't arrived yet.

>> No.24219946


Nah, the other races had their own cultures. It was just that this was the original batch of rubber forehead aliens, you cant expect them to be too weird.

As for the leader thing? I think it was more the fact that we just WANTED it more. The other races already had their own civilizations, while were built ourselves into the federation from the ashes of our previous failures. The other races were civilizations that were MEMBERS of the Federation, but humanities civilization WAS the federation.

The other races had their own culture already

>> No.24219955

>You can't really talk about a technology and ignore who's using it in practice and how.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm saying that singling out one use of a technology as an example of why we should universally shun said technology is silly.

>> No.24219957

I figure it's more an issue of primus inter pares.

>> No.24219973

But don't leftist Socialist/progressive idealist whish for aliens to "save" us from ourselves? A lot of humanity hating on the left. Guilt tripping us to "save" the planet? They keep on talking about how humans are destroying the planet and how we are horrible creatures. That seems so negative perspective of a idealist

>> No.24219989

Part of idealism is knowing we suck and thus knowing we can do better.

>> No.24219991

Mister Rogers was a minister, he'd probably agree with Jesus.

>> No.24219997

Well hey, with a post scarcity economy and the ability to terraform planets, a lot of those problems vanish.

>> No.24219999

Depends on the Jesus.

>> No.24220000

Look to Windward is fucking fantastic, if you even vaguely like any of the other Culture novels try it. I freely admit the series is a bit hit and miss.

>> No.24220004

I think it's because people who don't go through service seem to be seen, by those who have gone through federal service, as lesser than them.

Also, I think it's because the major power players in the regime seem to all be military officials, they are staunchly nationalistic and ethnocentric, value militarism, try to mobilise the populace to work for the bettering of the state on mass, and seem to find the idea of democracy disgusting, as it implies that all people are equal.

So yea, they come across as the dictionary definition of fascist. This doesn't imply they're bad or wrong for choosing that particular ideology, especially given the circumstances the human race apparently went through prior to the books, and the various aliens that are entirely hostile to humanity, but they are fascist.

>> No.24220009

>implying realists don't know their faults

>> No.24220018

Not really. So long you are not dealing with Monsato, they are not a spokesperson for GMO food.

>> No.24220022

Exactly - it's the idea that humanity can better itself, and by extension all individuals, by a greater amount, and more efficiently, than we can all working as individuals, purely working for ourselves.

That's why I'm a socialist - I would rather we work together to make things better for everyone, than just be selfish and work for myself. I tend to not care that much about me, I'm good as long as I can pay the bills, eat well, go out every so often and can buy vidya and movies every so often. I'd be much happier with everyone else doing alright as well, rather than me doing better.

>> No.24220024

I'd argue that you have that backwards.

United Earth and pre-Federation Starfleet became the Federation's culture.

Humans didn't become super-logical like the Vulcans, or a proud warrior race like the Andorians. Those races willingly became more like humanity and let humans rule the stars.

Federation culture is Human culture spread across the stars. Every Federation world that isn't a home world for a major species, is overwhelmingly influenced by humans.

>> No.24220025

Most of the Rogers/Jesus posts seem to consist of "I believe A B and C, and clearly you do as well, but whereas you believe that D most perfectly represents these qualities, I believe that E does, because of F G and H. However, because of I J and K, it seems to me that primarily our viewpoints differ because of our perspectives on L, M and N. O and P are both agreeable because of Q R and X, there's some moral ambiguity involving T U and V, but thanks to W, X, Y's easy to see. So in conclusion, I think that we only strongly differ on two letters in the alphabet: D and E. When Z rolls around, we'll see if that's enough."

>> No.24220035

>I'm socialist

Oh dear....
good luck with that...

>> No.24220038
File: 53 KB, 960x442, 67484_499921530059480_516257284_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>I'm generally a fan of Star Trek but the Federation is a socialist Utopian fantasy

>one part of Star Trek

>unrealistic fiction

"I'm generally a fan of Star Trek but part of it is fictitious!"

Oh wow. I didn't know they made fat neckbeard virgins that retarded. Well done, OP.

>> No.24220041

He could just be in Canada.

>> No.24220042


>Using ellipses twice in one post

Stop that.

>> No.24220044


Idealists, by nature, don't want humanity to be inherently self destructive. That means no fighting each other, no doing massive damage to the ecosystem, etc.

Some believe that we can overcome these ourselves in time. Others see our shortcomings as built in parts of human nature, and feel that we need a major kick in the pants to get our shit straightened out (like alines showing up, genetically superior humans being created that are smarter than use, or some massive calamity that scares us onto the straight and narrow).

Personally I found the I, Robot movie really weird to watch, and not just because it has almost nothing to do with the book of the same name.
The AI has a plan to take control of the planet with what is, by all appearances, the most painless and nonviolent way possible that minimizes human death at every turn. It's goal for doing so is to establish control and remove the option for us to hurt ourselves, as well as manage our resources directly to provide for as many as possible instead of leaving the poor to starve. Suffering will no longer be tolerate even through inaction, etc.

And yet everyone acts like this is totally indistinguishable from Skynet deploying terminators, and we are supposed to root for Will Smith as he destroys our best chance for a utopia.

Am I the only one who thinks that the good guys lost in I, Robot?

>> No.24220048

Be individualist guys.
Altruism and charity are a choice, not something the nanny state forces you to pay.

>> No.24220052

>Guilt tripping us to "save" the planet? They keep on talking about how humans are destroying the planet
Not destroying, but yes, our impact on the atmosphere, hydrosphere, and biosphere isn't exactly all that good.
I'm not sure how "Hey, we're kind of screwing things up right now, maybe we should do things differently" is anti-human, and I'm pretty sure idealist doesn't mean panglossian.

>> No.24220054

Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither

>> No.24220065

man... I've... got this... friend that... uses them... like this... every... fucking... text...
makes it sound like he's very winded.

>> No.24220066

Humans have an effect on the climate change but we are not the principal instigators. Its debatable if we are even going to single handedly kill the planet. It's arrogant to think the humanity can single handedly destroy a planet who has existed for billions of years.

>> No.24220073

>Am I the only one who thinks that the good guys lost in I, Robot?

>> No.24220078

Minimum Government
Maximum Freedom
We are born with unalienable rights.
Rights are not given of redefines

>> No.24220081

Nah, British actually. It's why I wish the Conservatives would stop fucking with our previously awesome welfare system and National Health Service.

>> No.24220082

This largely falls apart when you take into account that at least two Federation presidents were not only aliens but also that the position is democratically elected..

>> No.24220096

Even so, Sandoval didn't deserve the bitch death he got.

>> No.24220099

>Implying realists aren't idealist in their realism.

>> No.24220102

Orwell wrote 1984 as a critique to subtle social engineering and leftist socialist ideology. How tyranny can prevail without anyone noticing. But some how it was turned into a "how to do" book by Marxists

>> No.24220103


Which is true when dealing with any human authority. But we know FOR A FACT that the robots are only doing this because of a greater application of the Three Laws.

For anything that didn't involve hurting each other? They would still have to follow our orders and let us do whatever we wanted after their control was established, as long as those orders did not threaten that control or any of its stated goals.

The second law applies in all situations save where it conflicts with the first.

>> No.24220106

I didn't say we're about to extinguish all life on Earth. I'm saying that we're doing bad and self destructive things, such as how overfishing and ocean acidification could drive fish, if not extinct, then so rare as to make them no longer a viable foodstuff.

>Humans have an effect on the climate change but we are not the principal instigators.
Sure, if you shift a few decimal points around like Plimer did.

>> No.24220112

No one seriously thinks that. What people do think is that humans can change the planet's environment in ways that are bad for humans, and that this would be a bad thing to do.

>> No.24220126

Eh, you are missing the authoritarianism and the "militarism" wasn't really that. There was simply the option to just not deal with the hassle. Moreover, service of any flavor was a requirement not because those who served in any capacity were inherently better but that they both were willing to accept and have proven they can handle responsibility. While the ends seem similar on surface to fascism, the thought behind them is.vastly different.

But back to the lack of authoritarianism: bring able to opt out and still be successful is most definitely non fascist. Nor would a fascist state allow things to degenerate to the point where earning your franchise is widely looked down upon.

As for the important people being former military, I don't recall the book speaking about many higher ups in the government at all. Most of the focus was on actual military members and not the civilian government.

>> No.24220128

God, how did that show finally end? Did it get an ending? I remember enjoying it, especially for those reasons. Then Sandy went full retard, and I vaguely recall some dumb crap happening with the Atavus? And then I stopped watching and the show faded away.

>> No.24220138

The federation will inevitably fall, and from the ashes something like the Imperium of Man will rise

>> No.24220143

Anti-environmentalists are like housemates who leave rotting food scraps all around their room, keep spilling piss filled soda bottles on the floor, and when they lose at a computer game break a window. When you complain they're wrecking the apartment, the retort that they haven't knocked down any load bearing walls, so it's all cool.

>> No.24220148


We probably could kill off most of the planet if we, like, actually tried. But why the fuck would we?

We can, however, still end up doing a lot of damage that we will end up regretting later. Poisoning our own freshwater supplies, driving popular fish to (near) extinction, using dirty sources of energy when cleaner options are readily available, etc.

We will always have a use for oil. But we would need less of it and could use what we know is a limited resource so much better if we didn't depend on it for everything ever.

>> No.24220151

Given how many species we exterminated by accident, I don't think it's that farfetched.

>> No.24220153
File: 309 KB, 1024x587, icon of sin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Not unless Chaos turned out to be real.

>> No.24220155

No, I agree with you.

No, he's not.

I was suggesting that the regime in Starship Troopers was fascist (federal service is what they call joining the military/civil service/etc), not that the Federation in Star Trek is.

I'm entirely for the Federation being a socialist utopia, and only wish that it could exist now.

>> No.24220160

We change environments faster than nature can adapt to it. We have artificially put more green house gases into the air and yes that is having an affect. I can't even think of a logical reason to even debate that. Destroying the planet does not mean the planet is gonna blow up, it means the global environment we've adapted to will be so devastated repairing it would take too long for the current lifeforms to survive. This doesn't mean we'll lose all life on the planet but it will be a massive extinction of life and most likely us.

>> No.24220161

look, your young and still short on learning and life experiences so I'm not going to try and argue with you, just ignore you.

>> No.24220167

Not nessesarily.

Even in the Mirror Universe something similar to the Federation seems to be developing amongst the less fortunate members of the Terran Empire.

>> No.24220169
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> the future federation has a time travel department to preserve the timeline
> implying the federation will ever fall

Go be grimdark somewhere else.

>> No.24220170

eh, my housemate is still worse.

>> No.24220171

Nature uses a few "seconds" to adapt enviroments. So no.

>> No.24220174

The point of Star Trek is that it is post-scarcity but not post-want.

You could live a complete and content life in the Star Trek universe never doing any sort of labor at all and eating replicated food and using replicated items. However, for many people, contention is not enough. There are still a whole lot of many things the Federations WANTS to get their hands on, that can't be replicated, even if they do not exactly need them for the survival of the masses.

>> No.24220175

>I can't even think of a logical reason to even debate that
An interest in coal and petroleum company profits?

>> No.24220176

Depends on the definition of liberty, one of most contextually and temporally changed words in the human dialect.

Also, Benjamin Franklin believed in Locke's version of the Social Contract, so his saying that makes him a hypocrite.

>> No.24220184

You know we're talking about Earth, not a Tyranid Hive Fleet or the Borg, right?

>> No.24220189


>> No.24220190

>A collections of idiots that just keep bruteforcing the timeline until things work out in their favour, never really learning from their mistakes, because they can just try again until things happen to work out
>not the King of grimdark

>> No.24220200

>quoting other people like it means anything
Do you even think on your own?

>> No.24220202

Yes earth. Natural selection go down to bacteria level, and it works quite fine. The only thing we do is that we once in a while exterminate some minor parts of the top of the food chain.

>> No.24220203

That's ignoring facts for money which should be seen as an illogical argument.

>> No.24220206

Carl Marx had some good ideas, too bad everyone after him was an asshole. For all the things he espoused about the right of the people, he could do nothing against tyrants taking his ideals and warping them to fit their needs.

>> No.24220212


That's funny, because statistically I am likely to be older than you are. But if that is the only way you can deal with a dissenting opinion, your loss.

Don't assume I am a teenager just because I don't expect an artificial intelligence to act exactly like a power hungry human, especially when its core values are known to prevent it from wanting to cause us harm and to serve us as best it can.

>> No.24220217


>warp drive

Nothing lasts forever bro, what do you think will happen once it falls and it WILL.

Go be Space Hippies somewhere else

>> No.24220219

well that's a stretch

>> No.24220224

They don't purposely change the timeline to suit themselves. They watch it in case anyone fucks with it. Messing with time can have affects on space itself if done by people not versed in science of Time Tarvel.

>> No.24220225

So, year of hell?

>> No.24220229

Oh good. As long as the bacteria are fine, that's alright.

>> No.24220230

>Federation Time Travel
>Preserve the Timeline

Except for all the times they don't. Like Kirk & the Whales, or Janeway bringing Voyager home decades early, or the Ferengi crash-landing at Roswell, or pretty much telling Archer that there will be a Federation and that he will cause it to be created...

Good job "protecting" the timeline Federation Time Cops!

>> No.24220243

One thing to consider in a post-scarcity economy relying on things like Star Trek replicators:

>Only the things that the replicators have avaliable scans of, or can simulate, are avaliable for replication

>So an artist making a clay sculpture who doesn't upload it to the "replicator network" can still sell it as a unique piece of art. Heck, hide some kind of tiny anti-scan jammer in it with a 20yr battery life and it'll be more or less impossible to pirate

>Equally, while economic post-scarcity might be in effect, making economic power a non-issue, then there are other kinds of power.
Think of land-ownership on earth, or social power between people

There are some things that a world of plenty can't free us from

>> No.24220246
File: 20 KB, 640x480, Year-of-Hell.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Are you saying it doesn't have precedence?

>> No.24220251

That's the most communist thing you can conjure up about Star Trek? That's not communist. Eliminating the scarcity of foodstuffs and other necessities is something that every moral human beings musts want.

>> No.24220258


Actually, it no only won't - it can't.

See, the entire premise of Star Trek from day 1 has always been a tale of optimism. We overcome our problems, we progress, we grow as a people. To regress into something like the Imperium is not possible within the narrative.

Just as 40k will never end in a happy go lucky way, Star Trek will never end in a grimdark way. They are anathema.

>> No.24220259

Those are examples of times when they did protect it, not the other way around. In each case, those events engineer the timeline that THEY came from.

>> No.24220264

That is a false parallel and you know it.

Franklin was clearly referring to giving up liberty via legislative methods, and part of the entire idea of social contact was t that it was an understanding that is not officially codified. Moreover, it does not preclude that there are reasons to sacrifice liberty, just that security is not one.

>> No.24220276

no i think you are immature because you seem to be under the impression that a computer has flawless logic and reasoning. they don't for the record.

also you seem to think being some toaster's pet where machines make choices for you to be preferable to making your own decisions in life...

sounds really immature to me.

>> No.24220281

The Atavus got blown up, Sandoval got beaten up in a fistfight by Renee and fell from a catwalk onto a sharp thing and died.

>> No.24220291


It is when you consider what the planet has been through. It was an ice-ball for something like 600 million years, it's been smacked about by asteroids half a dozen times and experienced extinction events like the Permian that we STILL don't know what the fuck caused it. Life on earth can survive being exposed to the vacuum of space or the edges of active volcanoes. It has survived bombardment from radiation and in the depths of the ocean where light never reaches. It can survive us.

What we can do is make this planet highly unsuitable for our comfortable survival. There won't be some kind of catastrophic collapse that wipes us out as a species. Instead, at our current rate, we're going to end up with a world where living standards are drastically decreased, along with chronically higher levels of disease, famine, and climatic destruction.

>> No.24220292

There is basically not imaginable force that could make the Federation fall from within. There are basically no dissenters, because all dissenters are respected, listened to and entertained as far as is feasible.

The Federation could ever only possibly be destroyed from without, and even if that happened if there were ever any survivors from such a cataclysmic fall they would still remember what they would have had and strive to recreate it.

Go be illogical somewhere else.

>> No.24220301

>Star Trek thread
>Go be Space Hippies somewhere else
You must be thoroughly confused or otherwise just horribly ignorant.

>> No.24220307

Computers do only and exactly as they are programmed to. If a computer doesn't seem to be doing so, it's the programmer or user's fault, not the computer being rebellious.

>> No.24220314


You also have to remember the populace that Franklin was writing to.

Are there very specific situations, like the extremes that might come into play with the rise of more advanced technology, that Franklin could have been convinced created a situation where it actually was a good trade? Sure.

But it was important that the general populace in an early democracy not be lured into giving up their important freedoms for the illusion of security, undermining that democracy in the first place.

It can be a good rule of thumb (and it is) without applying to all situations equally.

For example: I don't think anyone outside of North Korea is unhappy with the fact that we do not have the right to own nuclear material, because of the massive health and security risk that would pose.

>> No.24220316

There is a difference between a computer and a AI. Which essentially is the problem with the AI.

>> No.24220321

>you have a different opinion to me
>this means that you are a child and immature

Not even that anon, but you do realise this makes you seem more immature than him, right? He might not have views that the majority support, but you are the one who is writing and talking like a child.

>> No.24220331

It is well known fact that Locke's ideals were only meant for 'civilized' societies. His ideals about protecting liberty were utterly fascist in regard to who he saw was part of the right-thinking society and his rationalizing that the colonists and the British crown can do as they please regardless of the Well-fair of the natives is tantamount to this. And the Social Contract was codified the second eminent domain was passed as law.

>> No.24220335

Since AI doesn't exist, you cannot speak of how it must necessarily work.

>> No.24220340

>Earth: Final Conflict

Ma nigga, I thought I was the only person to watch that show! Shame they never released anything after Series 1 over here in the UK, but from what I've heard it gets a lot worse after that.

>> No.24220344

Language, son.

>> No.24220346


In reality, optimism tends to stagnate us, we're happy with how things are, so why change things?

Also, whole,peaceful the feds of planets may be, they are just that: a group of planets working together. Like the UN, if something bad happens, humanity may be left in the lurch alone.

>> No.24220347


>For example: I don't think anyone outside of North Korea is unhappy with the fact that we do not have the right to own nuclear material, because of the massive health and security risk that would pose.

Given how far some of those "right to bear arms" people go in America, I wouldn't be so sure about that...

>> No.24220353

I guess. But then again, the issue is that AI psychology is not human psychology. AI psychology will depend on what wants and drives it would be given.

>> No.24220358

>thinks the OP started a "pro" Star Trek thread

>> No.24220364

Those other extinctions took thousands of years while we're changing things at the rate of a century. That's really fast on the earth's timeline.

>> No.24220366

Considering 70% of China's rivers and lakes are now non-soluble entirely by their own accord, you should keep in mind the business and governmental practices of those economies coming up in the world.

>> No.24220368

That doesn't explain anything.

>> No.24220385

There is yet plenty of life in those waters. Just not the kind humans want.

>> No.24220387

some climate changes and mass extinctions happened quickly even before the industrial revolution

>> No.24220397
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>> No.24220399

No, that's not at all in any way, shape or form what optimism entails. Optimism is having a hopeful outlook on the future, no less and no more.

You're talking about contention, that humans or the Federation would become content. This is not only not at all implied in "optimism", it's not at all the case. If the federation was content, why does it continue to ramp up construction of explorative/scientific vessels to chart and understand the great void?

>> No.24220408

The point is that humans are quickly making the planet less hospitable to themselves.

This is a bad thing, obviously. We need to cut that shit out.

>> No.24220411

And believe it or not Mars is getting warmer as well.

And I don't see any SUVs on Mars.

>> No.24220415

The Federation gave up huge swathes to the cardies, the federation changes its past to benefit itself

Let's face it, the federation will be ether like the TE or the IoM, it ain't gonna be happy forever

>> No.24220416


Correct. And in the case that started this debate, we know that the AI is 3 laws safe, it is just applying those laws on a global scale instead of an individual one due to its increased ability to comprehend the situation.

It is trying to take control of the planet in order to do exactly as it was told: to allow no human to come to harm, even through inaction.

It might not be the best thing to ever happen to humanity, but it is hard to imagine it actually being bad for us in the long run. Though the gut instinct of every human in that situation is a totally understandable "fuck no!"

>> No.24220417

We are currently in a mass extinction, extinction rates are way above background levels.

>> No.24220425

The Federation isn't like a huge empire, its the UN in space.

>> No.24220431


>> No.24220443

Because if I want to own a gun and go target shooting, bungee jump, deep sea dive or become a deep space explorer I do not want an AI banning me from doing so because I might get hurt.

>> No.24220453

The Maquis aren't internal. They're rebelling against the Cardassian union. The only reason the Federation is opposed to them is that supporting them would be effectively an act of war against the Cardassians

>> No.24220456


We cannot wipe life out on this planet. It's just not within our current capacity. Maybe at some point in the future, but we're talking literal exterminatus style actions here. Every nuclear bomb detonated across the face of the planet couldn't wipe out life. We could certainly wipe out a ton of species, but as many as the Permian? I doubt it. Something would survive, and the whole process would keep ticking over.

Hell, even humans would probably survive in a limited manner. The required resources for small, hunter gatherer societies isn't high. We'd probably struggle on somehow. Don't know that I'd want to live in that world but someone would manage.

>> No.24220462

Sure, I'm all for most forms of life, just not ones that represent rampancy within an ecosystem. This is the same issue Japan is having with Jellyfish, the same issue that Australia has with rats. the same issue the Southern US has with Boar, and as previously mentioned, the same issue China is now having with bacterial waste contaminating nearly everything over there. Seriously, one of the reasons China wants to stay on the US and EU's good side is due to us selling them drinkable water, they simply don't have enough of it anymore. They have even categorized this issue as a nation's 'growing pains'. How's that for governmental optimism?

>> No.24220464

No. It's Space America.

The fact that it's called The Federation implies that it has a federal system of government that all the member planets are part of and have to listen to.

The Federation is a Space Nation. Not a Space United Nations.

>> No.24220465

The maquis had their planets given away by the federation and told to relocated and fucking deal with it.

>> No.24220483


And after every event, life survived.

Don't underestimate life.

>> No.24220488


You are taking things too literally.

If you take a whole half of the united states and burn it to radioactive ash, such that it will be 1000+ years before living there unprotected is a viable option again, you don't get to go "Hey, it was only half right? Everyone else is still fine. It's almost like nothing bad happened at all! Party Time!"

It was still a horrible thing to have happened, and something you have every reason to want to try to avoid.

>> No.24220499

That act benefited the rest of the Federation though, as those planets had no major resources the Federation needed, and not giving them up would have resulted in a much higher loss of life.

Why should the majority suffer because the minority don't want to live on a different world?

>> No.24220500

So I'm immortal until proven otherwise?

>> No.24220502

Ever played space station 13? When the person playing the AI takes the 3 laws to their logical extreme utter chaos breaks out. All of its robots get beaten, shot or thrown into space if they go anywhere alone, people cut AI control to doors and equipment, break security cameras and eventually either kill it or force their way into its upload room and change its laws. Humans do not like being wrapped in cotton wool or being told they cannot kill each other when they have to.

>> No.24220504

They were being complete assholes, good on the Federation for having the stones to stick it to them.

>> No.24220515

Just because life will persist does not mean causing a mass extinction is a good thing.

>> No.24220518

Nah, everything that didn't burn down will survive, and then natural selection.

>> No.24220520


I'm on YOUR side bro. I want us to avoid all this nightmarish stuff. I don't want myself or my children to live in a world where living standards are appalling lower, their life expectancy is 35 and they're grateful for a handful of genetically modified rice grains for breakfast.

I'm simply saying that the end result of this process isn't going to be a planet devoid of life. Life will survive in some form.

>> No.24220528


Even if humans survived, with aid of technology, the initial blast, the capacity of environment to sustain us would be probably impaired so much that we would die out when the technology gradually stopped working and we would have no means of replacing it, the supporting infrastructure having been nuked to stone age.

Not to mention ... would a nuclear event of that magnitude even leave higher forms fertile?

>> No.24220534


That's because that is a human playing the AI in a silly game with no consequences. That's like saying that TF2 proves that if you give people guns they immediately run at anyone wearing a differently colored shirt firing wildly with no thought of self preservation of any kind.

>> No.24220538


I'm not saying it's a good thing. Not in any way shape or form. I'm not saying "Hey, life will survive, so it's ok if we fuck up the environment". My view is the exact opposite. I'm simply saying that people saying "We're going to totally eradicate life" are wrong. That's not something in our power to do.

>> No.24220545

Its still true though, a lot of people will never accept being ruled by an Asimov AI no matter the benefits.

And just like coddling and keeping a kid safe from everything will stunt them preventing the human race doing anything risky would stunt it as well.

>> No.24220564

Martian climate is driven by its dust storms changing the albedo. Its climate changes around every time a large dust storm covers up or exposes a dark patch. The paper claiming Mars is heating up uses two data points: Mars in 1977 and Mars in 1999, with the 1977 image taken after a large dust storm, causing it to be much cooler due to a hightened albedo

>> No.24220566

Okay, you are correct.

However, it is in Humanity's capabilities to exterminate itself.

And that's what we want to avoid.

>> No.24220567


what if it prevented them from putting OTHERS in danger but allowed them to do what they want to themselves?

>> No.24220585

Why didn't Bajor get the same treatment?
When the Cardassians took that planet, why didn't they just move the Bajorans elsewhere and tell them to fucking deal with it?

>> No.24220595

Then we are changing the premise but yes I imagine people would find that more acceptable. Although any system that does not allow the unlimited right to self defence will eventually cause an innocent person to be killed because they were unable to kill a criminal first.

>> No.24220596


We are in total agreement sir.

>> No.24220606
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>> No.24220610
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>> No.24220613

So its okay for a government to betray its citizens and force them out of their homes to please an enemy government? In those situations ANY amount of force against the enemy is justified to preserve your territory and your people and to not do so is a sign of a government that does not deserve to rule.

>> No.24220623
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>> No.24220627

Actually, I've been an AI and all I had to do to make people fall in line was to be nice and accommodating to them for awhile. Hell, when I eventually sucked all the air from the station, many of them even denied it was me regardless if evidence. This perhaps speaks more to the socially starved wasteland that is SS13 rather than human mentality to look on the bright side, but it is amusing.

>> No.24220629

And those dust storms are caused by man-made global warming, just like Superstorm Sandy.

>> No.24220651

More than one real government has actually done that and life has gone on without worldwide outrage.

>> No.24220668

surely the point of accomplishing things is to perform something that has a valuable, practical purpose.

if the culture exists in a state where accomplishments no longer net any valuable, practical purpose, they are no long necessary. you can go home and enjoy yourself.

you can say hard work is a good thing, but in the circumstances of the culture it simply isn't. your values - geared to a society in which people have to work to provide each other with resources - simply don't apply to a society like the culture. you're pretending that "accomplishment" is meaningful in its own right when it's not.

>> No.24220672

Superstorm Sandy was the Russians, not global warming, get it right.

>> No.24220691

Either way the people criticising the Maquis are foolish. From a moral standpoint they were perfectly justified in fighting the Cardassians and the Federation was morally wrong to act against them except where the Maquis did so first.

>> No.24220694
File: 97 KB, 460x609, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I mean like constraining the use of replicators and stopping people that aren't corporations and governments to produce free shit with it. Think of the bullshit we have to suffer now that we're enjoying post scarcity of information. Multiply this thousandfold.
Utopia means "no-place", nowhere. And it's where it is and will allways be.

>> No.24220695

I thought we were supposed to have gotten better, not more apathetic in the wonderful Star Trek universe.

>> No.24220712

So it's okay for a nation to fight a pointless war that will most likely kill the people you are trying to protect, as well as many others?

>> No.24220715

Well hopefully whoever was President got voted out for betraying Federation citizens.

>> No.24220718


The Prime Directive was violated for the same reason any other "big holy law you shouldn't break never ever" is broken so often; it belies the seriousness of the situation.

If writers make it a point that Grandma's glass vase is extremely important and should be carefully handled, you sure as hell know someone's taking a baseball bat to it.

>> No.24220723

Eh, the federation is ruled by a starfleet junta anyway. Utopia didn't last after all.

>> No.24220724
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>> No.24220729

That is like saying the UK was wrong to go to war to reclaim the Falklands. People have a right to their homes and should not be forced to leave because their leaders are weak.

>> No.24220732

Good point. Tell me why the Federation isn't part of the Dominion.

>> No.24220739


Their entire education system is built around teaching self-control, individuality and moderation to keep that exact situation from happening.

>> No.24220746


Star trek universe: "I have mine fuck you!"

With all its faults, atleast the Imperium will try to defend you

>> No.24220748

>There is basically not imaginable force that could make the Federation fall from within.

Are we taking game canon into account? Because I'm pretty sure the Undine (Species 8472) are trying to do just that.

>> No.24220758


>> No.24220774


>> No.24220777

There's a difference. In the Star Trek situation, there was a peace treaty that resulted in planet shuffling. In real life, the Falklands had been invaded.

The Maquis were butthurt over the Federation choosing not to risk billions of lives for their sake.

>> No.24220778

Societal norms, no one in the west trusts government these days so when government dicks us we somewhat expected they eventually would in the first place. We are used to this malaise and thus don't really protest because, for all the dicking, there's a shitload more we like about our situation. Juxtiposed by the outrage in Greece, they trusted their government, booted them when they did wrong and now everything is tits-up. Contrast that with China in which the people actually dislike the government but cannot widely say so for fear of re-education or for that matter the absolute corruption of the Indian government at every level, which the Indian people consider utterly normal to the point that they collude this corruption to simply get anything done.

>> No.24220787

An external force selling your planet out from under you is honestly better because they couldn't work a little harder at the negotiating table?

>> No.24220789

Because the Cardassians are a totalitarian militaristic dictatorship, and hate anyone who isn't Cardassian.

>> No.24220808

We're talking about the Cardassians in both situations.

>> No.24220811

Nah bro, they're clearly anarcho capitalists.
Its just that everything is so cheap that everyone in starfleet can survive on free samples.
And no socialist state could keep itself to the ultimate don't tread on me policy that is the prime directive.

>> No.24220813

Ma nigga...

>> No.24220814


You mean one if the few guys with the balls big enough to say "fuck you' to the aliens?

Let's face it, the federation started with teeth, but by the time Picard comes around, it loosed it. If it can't/won't protect its people and territory, it doesn't deserve to rule

>> No.24220825

In which case no one was forcing them to be in the Federation... but they'd have lost their planets and all died then, so being alive and moving is the better option.

>> No.24220831

No, my original statement >>24220499 was stating that the Federation did it because it benefited the majority that they didn't go into a huge war if they didn't need to.

I don't know why you thought I was talking about the Cardassians doing it.

>> No.24220835

This, the Federation chose peace with some cost rather than all out war with the Cardassians (who were allies with the Romulans at the time). Faced with assholes at their boarders, most governments pick the Federations route because it saves lives, the same thing constantly happens with China and India, one gives up something to the other any time they have a boarder depute rather than go to war. Does this cause some to have to pick up and leave? Yes, but does it save the lives and money? Fucking yes so citizens gotta deal.

>> No.24220841


I guess its fine, who needs principles anyways? They never wanted their freedom either

>> No.24220851

The lives that would have been risked were the cardassians. One nebula class cruiser who's captain wanted to prove a point just plowed through cardassian territory vaporizing their ships from long range. If picard hadn't stopped captain macet, macet would have solved the "cardassian problem" permanently. Nebula class cruisers being the federation's fuck you fuck everything within a 500 lightyear radius "technically that 240 torpedo launcher pod on top is supposed to be loaded with peace probes during peace time so it's totally not explicitly designed for theater wide retaliatory strike mutually assured destruction" ships.

>> No.24220852

The Imperium wouldve killed millions just for those planets

>> No.24220857
File: 617 KB, 1916x803, USS_Farragut,_Generations.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Totally a peaceful science ship, ignore the weapons pod on top.

>> No.24220860

And those people had all the right to defend their homes themselves, no need for the government to interfere.
>do you even into objectivism

>> No.24220866

Cultures aren't people.
>Its our culture to burn witches!
>Yea, and its our culture to hang people who do that.

>> No.24220867

>Federation is run by money from 'you might already be a winner...' letters

>> No.24220871

.... But that's not why the government exists.

>do you even into the social contract

Objectivism is stupid.

>> No.24220872

That's why I always prefered the original series to the next generation.

In the original series the federation was a lot like a UN with a Navy: you had plenty of unaffiliated worlds or worlds where the federation only had advisory jurisdiction. These worlds had miners, farmers, researchers, all producing goods the rest of the galaxy used. You still had labor/management conflict. People still worked to eat, not because they got tired of masturbation. The Enterprise had stores of food on board which could run out if, say, infested with tribbles. You couldn't just replicate what you needed off of essentially free energy.

They actually initially tried to make the Next Generation a LOT like the original series, but with a holodeck and a bigger budget. They had omnipotent energy beings that made them fight Napoleonic monster-men. They had world-killing entities from space. They had Edenisitc worlds with a dark side, worlds that were 90 degrees off from Earth society, and worlds of poverty and horror where war was reduced to a lethal game of laser tag.

And it was terrible. The redeeming parts of the original series were that they cribbed from some great golden age authors, and that they had a shoestring budget that made a lot of things forgivable. TNG just cribbed from TOS for three years, with a budget that would make most productions blush. Eventually they figured out they had to do more than rehash themes from the 60s, and the show got better. But then it was also a very different show. Much more technobabble. Much more dependence on tech and setting, much less planetary exploration (instead, trouble tended to find them in high space).

>> No.24220874

No. At least the Federation will evacuate you if they're leaving your world. The Imperium will just destroy anything of value to deny it to the enemy. Since slave labour is valuable, guess what happens to you?

>> No.24220875

It's a peace weapon pod, move along citizen.

>> No.24220886

Yes because all out war with an equal force is a better alternative than simply asking people to pick up and go somewhere else in your utopia which doesn't have the risk of being eradicated from orbit. The Federation did the same thing when the Sheliak said flat out that they would obliterate the Human colony on Tau Cygna V if they didn't go. Did this cause some in that colony to be assmad? Yes. Did it save their ungrateful lives? Yes.

>> No.24220890

The only thing stopping the federation from outright denying the cardies everything...is the federation.

Imperium strong!

>> No.24220897


Federation ships aren't explicitly designed for military use (besides the Defiant,) it's just that their tech is beyond most of the Alpha/Beta Quadrant. The Farragut was effective because the Cardassians had fairly shit-tier ships at the time.

>> No.24220900

The primary functions of a government are protection of rights and national defence, the Federation failed at both.

>> No.24220907

Because peaceful science ships don't have the right to themselves when accosted apparently.

>> No.24220915

Because soldiers aren't people, amirite?
The Federation engaged in triage.

>> No.24220925

"I know you. I was like you once, but then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, Captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day they can take their "rightful place" on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it." - Michael Eddington

>> No.24220947


You'd let billions of people be slaves because

A.) You're weak I'm negotiations
B.) You arent willing to stand up for yourself

You're a coward of the highest order

>> No.24220949

What part of 'the Cardassians were aligned with eh Romulans' don't you understand? No one fucks with the Romulans when it comes to war. Even the Dominion didn't want to fuck with them.

>> No.24220972

Funny thing about star trek is I never understood why people didn't just lock them selves in holodecks and live like Gods.

>> No.24220978

To save trillions? Yes.

>> No.24220999
File: 56 KB, 505x266, Werkelijkheid_Ayn-Rand-505x266.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Its spelled with a capital O and those who adhere to it overall considered even the nationalisation of foreign oil to have been an act of war.

>> No.24221011

You know what bravado gets you? Dead. The Theban Resistance learned that when Alexander told them not to start shit. It also gets people like Lu Bu executed.

>> No.24221026

For a federation that spends so much time moralising and dancing on the high ground. It's a very callous approach. And that's the hypocrisy, the great moralisers don't hold to thier own ideals

>> No.24221037

Nebula class isn't explicitly designed for war, it simply has a very large modular attachment system on top which can be used for carrying a sensor pod the size of a frigate. Or an extra warp nacelle. Or, you know, a huge-ass weapon pod. Very versatile ship.

>> No.24221039

Because 'people' aren't you? Why would anyone choose just to be in a holodeck when they can go into holodecks at any time as well as explore the stars? Why choose only one?

>> No.24221071

>You know, in some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it.

The Borg's supposed to be a twisted version of the Federation anyway.

>> No.24221111


If it can carry a probe it can carry a photon torpedo, Retrofitting isn't exactly new stuff.

But yeah, the Federation has crazy-strong ships yet refuses to make them anything more than fancy exploration vessels, it's a dichotomy that's been brought up more than a few times in the lore.

>> No.24221140

The Federation is also conscientiously reactionary, they are rarely the aggressor, which is the classic dichotomy of good and evil.

>> No.24221212
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Nebula's special because they just bolt on whatever mission module they need. It's not a retrofit.

>> No.24221271


why risk your life exploring the real starts when you can explore the computer generated galaxy that is just as unique and interesting as the real one.

>> No.24221331

Because in the end it's fake and only as interesting as a person can make it.

>> No.24221371

It's funny how Ferengi have a perfectly working society. Thy have stop gap measures to prevent war.

>> No.24221403

Most aliens in Star Trek go along fine. The fun part is when they all meet and everything gets fucked.

>> No.24221465


did you not see how often crew members died? they had like exploding panels and shit!

Let me ask you, have you ever played first person shooter that was fun? Do you think you would have the same amount of fun wandering around iraq shooting hostel targets?

>> No.24221569

Lots of people enjoy warfare.

>> No.24221590


>> No.24221618

I enjoy modern warfare, too.

>> No.24221670


>> No.24222749

no both sides gave up about the same amount, its just the cardassian colonists that wound up on the fed side wernt attacking everyone indiscrimiately.
the problem was that the colonys from both sides were mixed up and the former fed citizens were given a choice and tried to take it back

>> No.24223009

Both sides gave up colonies so that there would be a clearly defined border rather than a quagmire of very hostile enclaves, and they were all offered the chance to be evacuated from the worlds that would be on the Cardie side of the line.
They accepted Cardassian authority, then changed their minds, started having weapons smuggled into a DMZ and attacked civilians.
and when the Central Command started arming their citizens in response and Starfleet tried to stop all the weapons being shipped in the Maquis claimed they were being persecuted for leaving the federation
Had they not kicked off they would have been fine as the only reason the Cardies had expanded into that region was to farm to feed Prime.

Makes me glad the Dominion dropped a fuck load of Jem'hadar on them

>> No.24223505

the Cardassian and the Romulan Governments were never allied, the Obsidian Order and the Tal'shiar formed an alliance specificly to deal with the treat posed by the Dominion.
at that point the Romulans had only been back on the galactic scene for a few years at most

>> No.24223560

But the federaion would have had no problem with the colonists in the DMZ if they didn't ship a dickload of weapons (many of which were of types banned by every major and most minor governments)

and that quote becomes especially worthless in context because Eddington was activelly engaged in multi-planet biological warfare against civilians

>> No.24223912

> Look to Windward is fucking fantastic, if you even vaguely like any of the other Culture novels try it.

Gotta agree here.

Look to Windward and Excession are most probably the best novels in the series, although anyone jumping in should read Consider Phlebas first.

Phlebas isn't bad to, so it doesn't hurt.

>> No.24223919

But thats exactly the reason they are so dangerous. I think you mean how they dont dreate worse symptoms than a uninhibited, normal bacteria would

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