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[ERROR] No.24085843 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

After reading a thread on /tg/ not long ago about Kamen Rider I've recently begun watching the series, starting with Kabuto. The setting behind this series and all the shenanigans that go on between the drama and fights are very appealing. I've decided that once I learn more about Kamen Rider I will run a game based on it. But what should I know? other than Kabuto, I've seen a few episodes of Double and a little bit of Decade, and from what I can tell, Riders are very different from one series to the next. What exactly makes a Rider? I just have so many questions.

>> No.24085858

Also, has anyone successfully run a Kemn Rider inspired game, and if so, how?

>> No.24086097

If you want general info on Kamen Rider, asking /m/ wouldn't be a bad idea.

The definition of a Rider is... Weird. Some Riders don't even call themselves such, but it's generally a combination of abilities (Summoned armour) and intent/actions (Save people, even if they're reluctant).

A Rider game could work though. It just depends how you do it. Legend, a d20 fantasy RPG, has a Kamen Rider class option, which would allow a weird variation of Riders with fantastical abilities.

Myself, I've been planning a Kamen Rider game for a while I've titled Kamen Rider Mythic Edge, where Rider belts are made from the melted down and reforged remnants of mythological weapons. I'm intending to use the Legends of the Wulin system, since I'll be taking the style and combat very much towards the martial arts focus, rather than crazy powers.

>> No.24086146

>>24086097
Thanks, I'll be sure to ask them. The thing is, my group is very new to pnp, so d20 probably isn't the best way to go with 3 people who've never seen a die with more than six sides. I have a mostly complete, very simple, homebrew system that works off 5 stats, just needs a setting and skills and it should (in theory) work.

>> No.24088039

>>24086146
For a setting you could use the Neo-Heisei riders continuity (Double, OOO, Fourze & Wizard) it would allow for multiple types of rider and it already has a BBEG in Foundation X.

>> No.24088175

>>24085843
>What exactly makes a Rider?
JUSTICE
Well not for all riders, but most riders have some traits that they share for example:
>henshin belt
>rider kick (or punch, shooting, slash)
>an insect motiff (even the riders based on other animals have insectoid eyes)
>and most important: a motorcycle.

>> No.24088202

>>24085858
I played a Kamen Rider styled hero in a GURPS supers game.

3 people playing basically the cast of Heros
1 person playing silver age grab bag power white knight
1 person playing edgy gritty watchman style kid
and me playing Not-Kamen Rider

The GM would try to build up the situation, explain how screwed we were and the party would inevitably try to come up with some derptastic plan or wuss out or something.

Then me and the kid would exchange a glance and walk right into the fire, like we did every other time.

You don't mess with a system that works. The system just so happens to be Justice.

>> No.24088347

There's very little in the way of doing a Kamen Rider wrong. Just have transformation belts, Rider kicks, Monsters of the Week, a good theme, and if you're feeling ambitious a sub-commander squad.

There's very little in the way of similarities in operation, but most Riders work similar in practice. Kabuto's Rider Kick is a reverse roundhouse powered by tachyon particles to blow up alien bugs. Kamen Rider W's is a flying side kick (in his base form, he has others) that allow him to momentarily unlock the full power of his GaiaMemories to forcibly eject the transformation device from inside the monster and revert them back to human.

But at the end of the day, it's still a kick that destroys a monster.

>> No.24088851

I know I've been talking about this system a lot, but Cartoon Action Hour is pretty much perfect for a Kamen Rider campaign. There are rules specifically for transforming from a regular human being into anything you like.

>> No.24088962

>>24088851
I personally prefer M&M, the 3rd edition specially has the Action (needs to active the power) and Removable (can be removed like a henshin belt) flaws making it very easy to make a rider.

>> No.24090401

>>24088962
Fair enough; CAH has Restrictions during character creation that means the same thing (M&M has Removable, CAH has Item) but as I always say, you play what you like.

>> No.24091967

>>24086146
Some time ago i tried to unify the Heisei Era (Kuuga to Decade) in one universe. I think that could work as a setting. Does someone want me to post i what i have wrote already?

>> No.24093734

>>24091967
Sure, go ahead.

>> No.24093791

>>24085843

Kamen Rider series can be quite different from each other in theme, especially in the current era but there's always a few core concepts that stay even if those concepts aren't all present in every series. (aside from designs of the riders themselves)

-The rider's origin or source of power is often intrinsically connected to the enemy they face. Many Showa-era riders were either modified by their enemy or had that modification technology originate from them. This applies to Heisei riders even more than the Showa riders, in fact you could say that this replaced the 'cyborg modification' trope of Showa riders. Kuuga is the Grongi's ancient foe; Agito powers came from the twin of the antagonist god; creation of Ryuki's system and the mirror world; Blade's rider system and the Joker Undead; Double and the Gaia Memories etc.

-The rider dealing with the fact that he's no longer quite human. Although not always at the forefront, it often has to do with their choices of doing what they do, or it was in itself a choice they made. Showa-era riders are all some sort of altered human cyborgs, and almost all of them were extensively modified for the purpose of being weapons. If present in Heisei-era shows, it often has to do with becoming the very enemy they're facing.

-The mysterious evil organization and the monsters that the riders have to fight. In Showa-era shows, they're also usually responsible for turning the rider into what he is, or providing the reason the rider had to be made what he is (vengeance, continued survival, etc.). In Heisei-era shows, the featured organization might not be plainly evil or might instead be beneficial while the monsters the rider faces might be of their own faction.

Think of the series themes for your game while incorporating the above.

>> No.24095996

>>24093791
>If present in Heisei-era shows, it often has to do with becoming the very enemy they're facing.
Except for Faiz, Kabuto, and Kiva.

>> No.24099937 [DELETED] 

>> No.24100133 [DELETED] 

>>24085843

You should make up your own Kamen Rider. Is he a cyborg? Possessed by power giving daemons? A regular guy who stumbled upon the belt? Part of the beauty of it is that it's ridiculous. You almost can't be wrong.

Start by picking a bug you like and imagine the suit, and then design the idea around that. Ant Kamen Rider would have super strength, while Mantis Kamen Rider would be lighting quick. Design your own. But no matter what, you now know how to ride a motorcycle.

>> No.24100214

>>24100133
>Bug
It doesn't even have to be a bug!
there are crab, shark, chameleons, and bat riders.

>> No.24100256 [DELETED] 

>>24100214

Sure. But dem bug eyes ain't changing.

>> No.24105194

>>24088175
Most Riders seem to have the theme of having their powers coming from the badguys, directly or indirectly.

>> No.24107354

>>24105194
Yeah, Ishinomori loved this trope. Considering he created Cyborg 009 it makes sense. Later series use the concept as a way of paying homage to him and the earlier series.

>> No.24107463

Another thing that complicates issues is that for all that these things are a good bet for the main rider of any given show, the secondary riders often don't have to play as closely to the rules. While their fates are always tied closely to either the main rider, or the enemy, often more so even than the main character themselves, their powers are not. Or at least, not nearly as much.

Their mentality and outlook on being a rider usually isn't nearly as pure either, in that while they serve justice (At least eventually), it is entirely possible that their reasons for doing so are selfish personal gain, or a black thirst for revenge.

I admit this is mainly a Heisei thing and Showa riders generally had same shit different day origins relative to each other.

>> No.24107577

>>24107463
About the origin of the rider powers the Rangers Strike game separate it in four types:
>Earth Technology
Man-made tech including cyborgs.
>Over-Technology
Basically alien or future technology.
>Wild Beast
Animal powers.
>Mystic Arms
pic related

>> No.24107615

Wasn't /tg/ making a Kamen Rider system? What happened to it?

>> No.24107660

>>24107615
Died in alpha.
So much for /tg/ getting shit done.

>> No.24108196

>>24107615
As a huge Kamen Rider fan I'd love to help out on a project like that, I'm currently in the process of drafting up the next version of the Animorphs RPG however.

>> No.24108198

>>24107463
>the secondary riders often don't have to play as closely to the rules
Gills and Another Agito were imperfect versions of Agito.
All the Ryuki Riders have the same source.
All the Faiz riders are based on sharks and the greek alphabet.
All the Hibiki Riders are part of the same organziation.
All the Kabuto gears are based on insects and made by the same people.
Accel is based on a Gaia Memory just like Double; except A instead of W.
Birth uses the cell medals of a Greed and OOO uses the core medals.
Meteor's powers are derived from the same cosmic energy as Fourze and the Meteor Switch is compatible with the Fourze driver.

tl;dr what are you talking about

>> No.24108223

>Kamen Rider RPG
>every session is each player screaming and flipping the table to try and out-drama the other

>> No.24108493

>>24108223
Go away, Toshiki Inoue.

>> No.24108644

>>24095996

And all of them past Decade. Except OOO, but that wasn't because of the belt per se.

Fourze even manages to flip it on its head, because Gentaro seems to instinctively know that the real enemy isn't the monster created by the Astro Switch, it's the person using the switch. Instead of dealing with him becoming less human (which he doesn't), he instead prevents other people from becoming less human, which explains his whole "I'm going to befriend the fuck out of everyone!" schtick. He even does it to the BBEG, because he's that dedicated to it.

>> No.24108995

I managed to make an ORIGINAL RIDER DO NOT STEAL in cWoD: An Etherite with three dots in Correspondence/Matter and two in Forces is enough for the transportation of the suit, creation and improvement of the Suit (think Kuuga's Cho-Henshin, only you're increasing the suit's armor rating), and for the all-important RIDAA~ KICK!

Just be careful with the other players: in my first campaign, I had a lot of friction with the other player because he had a grimmdark Euthanatoi and, because "I only showed him OOO", he was turned off by the shenanigans in Kamen Rider.

I had to show him Kabuto to get him to like my character.

>> No.24109151

>>24108644
I'll give you Eiji, because of the Kyoryu Greeed, but Double and Fourze were never really in danger of becoming like the Dopants or Zodiarts, despite having powers from the same source.

>> No.24109344

>>24109151

That's the point I was making: the guy in the post I quoted was making an exception for Kabuto, Faiz and Kiva, and I was saying that the exception should include all the ones past Decade except possibly for OOO.

>> No.24109837

>>24108644
>>24109151
>>24109344
You guys are forgetting about Wizard.
Also, fuck this gay board. Why can't i post images?

>> No.24109889

>>24109837
Because moot broke something.

>> No.24109942

>>24109837

Wizard is a tricky one. On the one hand, yes he is using the power of his enemies and there is an element of becoming the very thing he's fighting against (especially with Final Time: All Dragon), but on the other hand the only reason he's a wizard (and Kamen Rider) in the 1st place is because he's immune to becoming like them due to him overcoming his inner Phantom instead of losing to it.

>> No.24110084

>>24109837
I'm not forgetting Wizard, I've just never seen it.

>> No.24110254

>>24109889

I still wish that getting a 1 summoned a really big animal instead of it being the fail roll.

>> No.24110480

>>24109942
From what I understood, Wizard can still become a Phantom if he fall into despair. The Dragon forms just increasce this chance.

>> No.24110509

>>24110254
But a natural 1 IS a crit fail.

>> No.24110672

>>24110509

On a d6 though? That seems a little harsh, especially when it seems like Beast needs a 5+ to actually kill anything (he got a 4 when fighting Medusa and it didn't kill her, though it might be that 4+ is fine on normal Phantoms, and Medusa needs a 5+).

>>24110480

Again, it's a tricky one. Both seem to be being implied at once, that he can and can't become a Phantom because of his wizard status. In theory, Haruto should be immune due to what he says gives him hope being such a large list (including but not limited to: Dragon, his ability to help and save people, being Wizard, everyone he's already saved, etc etc) that it would be impossible to break the whole lot. However, every time he gets a new power, there's always some concern that he'll fail and become the Dragon Phantom, so I'm not sure where they're going with that.

>> No.24110805

>>24110672
It looks like the next episode is going to gives some more insight into Haruto and Dragon. It also looks like it will be the debut of his Final Form: Infinity Style.

>> No.24110851

I have no idea what a Kamen Rider is; is it similar to a Power Ranger?

>> No.24110857

>>24108198
Well same guy built the Meteor belt as the Fourze belt right?

>> No.24110861

>>24110805

Oh good, I hope they give some explanations about what the hell is going on with the White Wizard next.

Also, speaking of final forms, am I the only one who found Beast Hyper a bit meh? It seems like they dropped the whole chimera thing for pure lion with it, which kinda sucks, though I did like that Beast had to figure out how to use the gun 1st. Oh, and the tassels were SO 80s it hurts...

>> No.24110865

>>24110851
Sort of, except Riders usually work either alone or with one other Rider, and when they do team up they usually don't share a thematic completely.

>> No.24110871

>>24110851
Sort of. They were created by the same manga artist.

>> No.24110889

>>24085843

Ooh. I'm watching Kabuto right now. How far are you?

How awesome did it feel in Episode 22 when Kagami turned into Gatack? I've been waiting for him to be a rider since episode 1, so I thought it was pretty fucking sweet.

>> No.24110896

>>24110851
Yeah, except Kamen Rider is generally more GrimDark (in a good way) than Super Sentai/Power Rangers.

>> No.24110910

>>24085843

Also, definitely watch W next. It's what I started with and it's one of my favorite series. OOO wasn't half bad either, even if the plot got a little holey at the end.

>> No.24110943

>>24088175
Regarding the quoted pic, OP, it may help you to read the Kamen Rider Spirits manga. Is already a crossover of various Kamen Riders, so it may give you ideas about how to mix different tipes of riders in the same story.

>> No.24110979

>>24110943
Oh man, Spirits is fucking awesome.
That moment with Rider 2 vs Spideroid:
>What is your mission objective and Id?
>Justice. Kamen Rider 2.

>> No.24110982

>>24110851
Broadly, yes. It follows the same theme of a transforming hero fighting a monster every week. The main difference is that there's usually a single Rider as the hero, rather than a team of five. Also, there aren't any giant robots.

Kamen Rider tends to be darker in theme than Super Sentai. Many of them are forcibly empowered by the villains, but choose to fight against them. Though both series are diverse, so that's not a strict rule.

>> No.24111003

>>24108198

>A instead of W

I don't think Double uses a W memory...he just uses Cyclone and Joker. Accel is the same as him otherwise though, he just uses a different memory and driver. Terui and Phillip are even supposed to be come double together, because of their natural resistance to Sonozaki's "Fear" ability.

Also, their motivations are usually different. Ryuki is about 10ish different people wanting to do 10ish differnt things, Accel wants revenge while Shotaro just wants to protect the city, Birth wants a shit load of money (initially), and Meteor wants to save his friend while Gentarou just...wants to make them I guess.

>> No.24111044

>>24111003

Gentaro is like Nanoha: he will beat the evil out of you, and then befriend you, not necessarily in that order.

>> No.24111077

>>24111003
I would post the image with Gentaro stating his motivation, but 4chan is fucked up and won't upload images.

>> No.24111083

>>24111044

Yeah. He was definitely interesting. He said he was going to befriend everyone, and by god he did. Even the final boss.

>> No.24111112

>>24111083
Motherfucker even befriended an space station/transforming giant robot.

>> No.24111135

>>24111112

That was an odd movie.

>> No.24111147

>>24110857
What!? No these were different dudes. The Fourze belt was created by Kengo's father, and the Meteor System was created by Tachibana.

>> No.24111158

>>24111135
But it was awesome.

>> No.24111170

>>24110857
I'm not sure. I think the guy who made the Meteor belt is friends with the guy who made the Fourze belt.

>>24111003
He's still thematically designed around a W, even though his basic memories are C, H, L, J, M, and T. Accel uses A, E, and T.

>> No.24111176

>>24111158

Indeed. I wonder what he'll befriend next? Cthulhu?

>> No.24111199

>>24111170

Accel has a J one too I think (Jet?). Plus he has the booster thing from his movie, remember. Isn't Accel also the only secondary rider to get his own movie?

>> No.24111232

>>24111199
The Jet thing is part of the E(ngine) memory, it has the power of the three types of engine jet, steam, electric.

>> No.24111376

>>24111170
Kengo's father created the Fourze Driver his friend Emoto/Tachibana/Virgo created the Meteor Driver.

>> No.24111382

>>24111199
Accel has Accel (base transformation), Engine (for his weapon), and Trial (for his Super Mode).

>> No.24111405

>>24111382

In the movie, he also gained access to the Upgrade Memory, a special add on to his base memory which enabled Booster, his final form.

>> No.24111470

>>24111405

Was Booster his final form though? It honestly seemed like it was more of a sidegrade, or somewhere between Accel and Trial. Trail feels more like the final form to me, especially with the whole shedding armour for more speed element, and the FotNS style finisher.

>> No.24111544

>>24111470
Booster form can fly, is stronger and tougher than Trial form and faster than his base form and only appear in movies. So, yeah it's Accel Final Form.

>> No.24111626

>>24111544

I'm pretty sure Trial is faster. Also, Booster is merely an upgrade for Accel, whereas Trial is a separate memory and piece of kit, and the precedent is that the form that comes from a separate item is the final form, not the form that comes from an upgrade to an existing piece of kit.

>> No.24111645

>>24111170

Yeah, but he doesn't use the W memory. That's Weather, and he's a pretty good pure evil bad guy

>> No.24111651

>>24111626

Double (At least, up until Extreme which was pretty damn boring IMO) was about flexibility and using the right tool for the job rather than direct power upgrades. Maybe that's the best way of looking at it? Trial and Booster both have their place, and even raw Accel still has some utility.

>> No.24111694

>>24111651
I'd have liked Extreme more if we'd seen it get used with more of the base memories and not just CycloneJoker.

>> No.24111705

>>24111651

Maybe. IIRC, the intro sequence for the Accel movie briefly shows all 3 forms anyway, so that might be the intent (although both Booster and Trial get used as super forms).

Also, I agree with you on Extreme, and Fang had the same issue too. Why did they never do FangMetal or FangTrigger, for example? Or any of the other combinations + Extreme? Would using Trigger as part of the base form swap out the sword and shield for a pistol for example?

>> No.24111745

>>24111705
I don't think that Fang or Extreme are compatible with the other memories.

>> No.24111817

>>24111745

Yeah. I feel like it worked the way it did because Cyclone and Joker were Phillip and Shotaro's "base" memories. Like in the A to Z movie, where Shotaro finds Joker in his house because the gaia memories naturally went towards their owner, and Shotaro is the Joker.

>> No.24111843

>>24111745

I could understand that for Extreme, especially given that it takes 2 slots (but then why is it compatible with CycloneJoker?) but Fang only takes up one. I can understand if it was an issue that they'd never used it before (it's been stated that Shotaro names all the special attacks and calls out the names because it helps them synch up when they're doing them), and Joker is the most basic of Shotaro's 3, but surely after a few episodes they could have gotten the hang of Fang and started mixing things up a bit.

>> No.24111869

Remember that Kamen Riders don't just have to be on the side of justice, employ BBEG style riders like Shadow Moon, or anti-hero/just plain twisted riders in the style of Another Agito/Kaixa respectively.

You may want to watch Kuuga/Agito, and some of Black to expand your understanding of earlier riders and how they handled story and theming. Furthermore reading Kamen Rider Spirits will give you a history lesson up to ZX, and will have you in a better spot for story structure.

Also forms will be difficult to handle. If a players runs a more Showa-era rider they'll have one form and probably have strength in a multitude of finishers. Exceptions would be Stronger and Black/Black Rx.

You may also want to curb them from going trigger happy Kuuga style, make them earn their forms and write encounters to be benefited from intelligent use of forms. Something as simple as a flying enemy would cause players to think in terms of their resources.

As well make sure to distribute gimmicks if a player takes that route. A Double esque character would need some way to get their power items at a reasonable pace. OOO dealt with this by distributing them, having him earn them from battle, and having them lost periodically.

On that note play with Henshin, Kuuga was forced into a 1/3 strength form upon expending too much energy. Faiz lost his belt on a regular basis. You saw how Zekters shifted around.

Also make sure that the bike plays a role, give characters the options to put points into bikes, unlocking better speed, bike control, combat, and bike forms like how Doubles bike could fly.

Finally save any final form stuff for deep into the adventure, or even the final battle. Also consider playing with belt destruction in the final battle.

>> No.24111910

>>24111843
Maybe Fang is too uncontrollable to use with any Memory that's not Joker. And they explained that there are people who are super compatible with certain Gaia Memory: Shotaro is compatible with the Joker Memory and Philip apparently with the Cyclone.

>> No.24112031

>>24111910

Again, that makes sense if we're talking about the 1st time they're using it, but later on they should have figured it out. Hell, I wouldn't mind them not using FangMetal/FangTrigger if they just included a couple of lines explaining why, but as it stands it looks like an oversight.

>> No.24112091

>>24107660

When we say "/tg/ gets shit done" what we actually mean is "a small group of people who saw an interesting idea on /tg/ took the idea off of /tg/ and polished it into something workable". Because anything that tries to be compiled actually on /tg/ will get muddled by too many cooks and "ideas guys" and not enough people who can actually math, have a lick of design sense, or put together a pdf and then it dies to laziness.

>> No.24112636

>>24111705
>Why did they never do FangMetal or FangTrigger, for example?
Because the Power Enhancement power of the Joker memory is the only thing powerful enough to combo with the Fang memory. All the Joker memory does is make the soul memory better.

>> No.24112832

>>24108196
Where is the last draft of that?

>> No.24113398

>>24111869

Ryuki has a good variety of rider motivations too, imo.

>> No.24113520 [SPOILER] 

>>24110861
>Beast Hyper

Why the fuck did they do that?

>> No.24113583

>>24113520
anyone else hoping that the gun would actually be some crazy Sumerian motorcycle? beast doesn't got one as far as i can tell.

>> No.24113690

Something I've always liked about KR is the way the suit actors can manage to convey body language and personality of the transformed Rider.
I mean, Wizard practically dance-fights with all those twirls and flourishes.

>> No.24113991

>>24113690
The same man has been the suit actor for every main Rider since Agito. God-Tier physical acting ability.

>> No.24114016

>>24113991
Except Hibiki though.

>> No.24114027

>>24113991
....

What?

What a god of acting.

>> No.24114340

>>24114027
>>24113991
And he does it all in those ridiculous costumes that he can barely see shit out of.
They showed that in the behind-the-scenes stuff in Decade. They generally make two masks for the suit guy to wear, one with a slit up the middle so he can kind of almost see, and another without it (leaving him practically blind) for closeups.

>> No.24114493

>>24114340
His name is Seiji Takaiwa. He's a veteran toku stuntman, already worked on a bunch of Sentais, Kamen Riders, Metal Heroes and a lot of others. Here is his page on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seiji_Takaiwa

>> No.24114558

>>24114493
Thanks, I was just about to look it up. Felt disrespectful to not know his name.

>> No.24114708

>>24114558
Don't worry, it's normal, few people care about the name of stuntmen. Besides it's not like he's the only one working on Kamen Rider there's Eitoku, Jun Watanabe and others

>> No.24115218

>>24114558
http://kamenrider.wikia.com/wiki/Seiji_Takaiwa
And here's an entry with his picture. He's old school Showa-manly

>> No.24118375

>>24115218
Ah, simpler times. When all you needed was a badass speech and to punch and kick the living hell out of things. No fancy gimmicky gadgets or forms.

>> No.24118425

>>24118375
>dem Legend Seven scenes in OOO/Fourze Megamax

With modern styled remix of their classic song, even!

>> No.24118507

>>24118425
>Rider-1 spinning back kicks and then trips THE SAME GOON in one fluid spinning motion

This is how it's fucking done, kids.

>> No.24120043

>>24118425
Now with links: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqh_qo2kEiw

>> No.24121030

RULE NUMBER 1 OF ANY FUTURE KAMEN RIDER RPG SYSTEM AND/OR SETTING

Leave the final form for the very last chunk of the game, if not the very last fight. Properly spreading upgrades around the campaign should be important as well, but leave the final form out till the final bits. Final form should be the growth cap, the epic milestone where you achieve world-shattering powers at the possible cost of everything you hold dear and you must use them to face an even greater threat.

Getting it early-ish and final-forming everything just devalues the upgrade. And while you can argue that it shouldn't be the final form but the Riders' heart, soul and skills that get them through the worst fights of their lives, final forms always have more of an impact when you know they've only been used to face the worst of the worst, rather than 20+ episodes of enemies.

Alternatively, limit their use in such a way that it can only be thrown at special enemies in special moments.

This isn't something that is done all that often in the shows, since they gotta show off the new toy designs before they hit the market, but I feel it makes the Riders' ultimate power feel far more epic.

>> No.24121231

>>24121030
Well going by the recent series, the rider seems to gain his Final Form around episode 30 more or less depending of the length of the series.

>> No.24121315

>>24121231
My personal favorite in this regard, and this is giant spoilers for the show so seriously man if you care about it don't read, is Kuuga.

The final form was used only on the second to last episode, against an enemy that could not have been defeated otherwise. Show had...a few problems spacing it out it's many powerups, but hot dang it's still the best final form to date.

The show that followed it up was good about it too. Final form was acquired before the very last stretch, but showed up only rarely. Hell even the other upgrade forms showed up fairly rarely, as well.

>> No.24121382

>>24121315
Kuuga was an special case because Ultime Form, at full power, was said to being able to destroy the world (Rising Mighty Form already destroyed everything in 3 km with it rider kick) or turn Kuuga evil (Black-Eyed Kuuga). So Kuuga only used it as last resort.

>> No.24121470

>>24121382
Yes and it's still the best final form in the entire franchise IMHO. Or at the very least the one that was best handled.

Agito's only showed up...when the...sun shone on him. Or something. As plot demanded, really, but it worked well enough because it was only ever used on the worst threats.

>> No.24121589

>>24121470
You have to take in account that Ultimate Kuuga and Shinning Agito are two of the most powerfull riders from the Heisei Era. Double CycloneJoker Extreme, OOO Putotyra Combo, Fourze Cosmic States and now Wizard Infinity Style are much weaker while their enemies are as stronger if not stronger than that of the earlier Heisei riders.

>> No.24121797

>>24121589
All Ultimate Kuuga did was trade punches. Then Godai powered down. I know the fluff but it doesn't mean shit if they still function on a similar power level within what's shown. Fourze jumps in and out of space like he's going down the street for some smokes, that's impressive and pretty far removed from what Ultimate Kuuga and Shining Agito ever did.

This is about setting the scene and keeping things interesting. A final form loses all meaning when it's attained with 20 eps to go (more in Kiva's case) and then is used in every other ep to wreck shit. It's already the final form, it's a great way to showcase that the Rider's hit a maximum level of power, that shouldn't be wasted on 20+ episodic enemies, it should be reserved for the very final stretch to mark it as a milestone of progress.

>> No.24121914

>>24121797
Of course there's the Showa Route where you don't change forms (unless you're Stronger or Black RX, always gotta have someone special), and just grow in power without any physical changes.

>> No.24122320

>>24121797
>It's already the final form, it's a great way to showcase that the Rider's hit a maximum level of power
> mark it as a milestone of progress.
But this is exactly what Kiva Emperor Form was.

>> No.24122347

>>24121797
>All Ultimate Kuuga did was trade punches.
Yeah, but he did this against the BBEG and each punch had 80 tons of power. Without talking that Kuuga and N-Daguva-Zeba were pretty much tied during the fight. Compare that to Fourze that had to go through ALL of his States finishing moves, beat him up IN HUMAN FORM and then use a quadruple Limit Break to deafeat the Sagittariu Zodiart.

>> No.24124768

>>24121382

>Rising Mighty Form already destroyed everything in 3 km with it rider kick

This is wrong, actually, but a lot of people make the same mistake.

Grongi explode when they die, and stronger Grongi make larger explosions. It's even stated in the dialogue of that episode, if I recall correctly. It's the Grongi that creates the dangerous explosion, not Kuuga itself.

>> No.24127453

>>24122347
>I know the fluff but it doesn't mean shit if they still function on a similar power level within what's shown

>> No.24128823

>>24122320
Nevermind the ridiculous fapsword or the fact that Emperor's Rider Kick sucks shit compared to regular Kiva's unchaining+stamping his sigil on the floor while turning day into night, Emperor was blown stupid early and left next to no screentime for other forms, not to mention it loses all impact when it's used against everyone and everything with no repercussions.

Wanna know why Ultimate Kuuga is such a fondly remembered final form despite being showcased for all of 10 minutes at most and not doing anything but sloppy punches? Well, aside from it being a cool as fuck design (not that Emperor's design is bad or anything), it was used to combat exactly a single world-ending threat that had shitstomped Kuuga previously and it's use signified the possible end of mankind anyway, as it was based entirely around imitating the previously mentioned world-ending threat and its powers.

Ultimate Kuuga felt FINAL because it was saved for the end of the show sans epilogue, used against a single opponent literally nothing else was even close to matching and it's use carried significant risk to the protagonist and everyone around him. If you've got 20+ monsters that all necessitate using your final form, then the final form loses novelty and finality, it just becomes the new finisher of the week.

>> No.24128969

>>24128823
Here's the fapsword for those who haven't seen it.

>> No.24129092

>>24128823
> Ultimate Kuuga
> cool as fuck design
You sound like one of the people who have nostalgia for Showa series despite the fact that they've never actually seen a Showa series.
A world ending threat shouldn't be defeated by ten minutes of sloppy punches.

Kiva Emperor was one of the few upgrades used sensibly. Of course you're going to go to your strongest form as quickly as possible. Wataru got Emperor form not because it was decidedly needed, but because he had reached the point in his development where he earned it. Obtaining Emperor form was the point where Wataru went from the user of the Kiva system to the master of it.

But yeah, not being able to defeat a monster so he gets an upgrade and now he can defeat it is a lot cooler than that. Let's just post 3x speed gifs of his sword multiple times so it looks phallic. There's a reason those four shots are all poorly done loops of a single slide.

>> No.24129651

>>24129092
>not liking Ultimate Kuuga's design

Also, I've never praised the final fight. It could've been much better and it lacked the impact it should've had. But the long buildup to it was pretty much perfect and that's what I've been focusing on.

You say Kiva Emperor was one of the few upgrades used sensibly, and sure, it's obvious someone's gonna go for their strongest form as soon as soon as they can. Doesn't mean the writers should just toss the MC his ultimate power, king of the vampires, destroyer of worlds form in the middle of the show.

Seriously, can't you see the problem here? He's already attained his ultimate power only halfway into the show and it doesn't even have some kind of flaw or drawback to prevent its constant use and keep it interesting. Even if it's all justified within the story, it's a bad way to use a final form, it's the MC hitting the roof with half of the show still to go. Don't you think throwing your ultimate form out for over 20 episodes devalues it's impact somewhat?

Agito got Shining form a good 10 episodes before the finale, maybe even more I can't remember off the top of my head, but you know what? It remained special, a holy shit moment, because he didn't/couldn't access it at the drop of a hat, and it only got used against a very powerful, specific subset of enemies different from all others.

But sure, minimize all of the buildup and possible dangers to Ultimate Kuuga and simplify it as "he lost, so he got an upgrade and won". And really the gifs speak for themselves, loop or not it's as phallic as it gets.

>> No.24130603

>>24129092
>>24129651
Why are you guys focusing so much if the sword is phallic or not?

>> No.24130866

>>24130603
Because I made fun of it for being a pretty terrible, laughable design and called it "fapsword" derisively as a way to point it out as one of the flaws I see in Emperor Kiva's design, all because this guy started defending what is probably the worst-handled ultimate form since Faiz's or Ryuki's.

>> No.24131607

>>24130603
Because that's the complaint people who want to laugh at Kiva make about it. In order to do its finishing attack, he has to slide the hilt up the length of the blade and down again.

>> No.24131842

>>24130866
>>24131607
Well, this is it.

>> No.24133194

>>24131842
It's not as bad as >>24128969 makes it out to be.

>> No.24133925

>>24131607
I affectionately call the Zanbat sword the fapsword. I LIKE Kiva despite its huge amount of flaws.

>> No.24134524

>>24133925
Well, to distance ourselves from fapping and swords, why don't we tell which series is our favorite and why?
I personally like Kabuto, the Clock-Up sequences are awesome and Tendou is so over the top that i can hate him, whitout talking that he got the better catchphrase of all riders:
Grandmother said this: "Walking the Path of Heaven the man who wil rule everything, Tendou Souji."

>> No.24134570

>>24134524
Fuck, meant to say that he is so over the top that i can't hate him.

>> No.24134587

>>24134524

>> No.24134669

>>24134587
Well to be fair, can't blame Tendou. Kagami was a annoying shit, until he manned up and got the Gatack Zeckter.

>> No.24134976

>>24134524
I never felt like Tendou was an asshole. He seemed to care about his friends a lot but wanted them to grow into stronger people instead of him just always fixing everything for them.

>> No.24135110

>>24134976
Exactly, and it all pay up in the final battle, when Gatack saves Kabuto from the BBEG.

>> No.24135149

>>24111003
From what I understand the word Double is pronounced like the Letter W in japan. So in fact his name is Kamen Rider Double. Cuz he uses two gaia memories to transform. Get it?

>> No.24135234

>>24135149
I never understood how we were supposed to pronunce W in english. Here we say it dablio.

>> No.24135270

>>24135234
Well. I think the pronounciation in japan is something like Daburu or something. But a W is prounounced Double or something. I had it explained to me once. It was confusing as all hell.

>> No.24135285

>>24135149
You can also see the elements of the design, visually, in things like the DoubleDriver (which makes a W shape when opened), Shoutarou and Phillip's pre-transformation pose (each one forms half of a W), Shoutarou's pose when transforming (he makes an upside down W with his hands), and the suit itself with its two pronged headcrest and double-pointed pauldron detailing.

>> No.24135342

>>24135285
Yeah. I think it's a weirdass japanese pun or play on words. In that the way they say Double is pronounced the same way you say the letter W. Which, if that's true. I really like the thought behind that design. I love stuff like that.

>> No.24135397

>>24135342
Yep. That's why "Double" and "W" were two competing romanizations when it first came out. Just look at the logo for the series. What does it look like?

>> No.24135404

>>24135342
Japaneses love puns. Even Shotaro surname has one, Hidari means left in japanese, as in the left half of Double.

>> No.24135459

>>24135285
>pauldron
Just going to leave this here.

>> No.24136015

>>24135404
>Japaneses love puns.
This is an understatement. The Japanese fucking love puns.

>> No.24138695

Bump

>> No.24138961

>>24134524
Favorite series is pretty hard, I don't think I've ever disliked a series. I basically have zero expectations other than "suit fightan" so I can usually just enjoy each show for what it is or tries to do. I even enjoyed Den-O when I was in the mood for it.

Anyway, if I had to pick, either Kuuga or Agito. Both are terrific shows with a really great supporting cast who interact well with a likeable, if simple, MC. The suits are generally good in both, with the Rider suits being some of my favorite, though Kuuga's monsters start out pretty shit and get a whole lot better as the series goes on. The story's actually decent on both save for a few pacing issues here and there, which is a nice plus.

>> No.24139157

>>24138961
I found Kuuga to be a kind of generic protagonist. But Agito is a total bro. He's like an amnesiac housewife. But a Kamen Rider.

>> No.24140644

>>24139157
> He's like an amnesiac housewife. But a Kamen Rider.
I hate you because this descritiption is pretty accurate.
But seriously, Agito is my favorite too. Though seeing it was my first rider, it could be just nostalgia talking.

>> No.24141221

Currently trying to find ways to work Riders into a Shadowrun game I'm running. Ideas so far:

Double: Druggie Mages who ride around town and solve cases...hard boiled style.

OOOs: Driver product of corporate project to fuse magic and technology for use by mundanes. Driver will be stolen along with Core Medals (from which Cell Medals are made by copying) by nebulous evil interests I'm still laying groundwork for. Current version of the Driver has addictive side effects and may lead to transforming into a Greed. When the Driver is stolen, the party will be whisked away to try and recover said Driver (mostly because the corp could care less if they die, and if they do they can see how effective the Driver is in open combat). To help them not die, they will be given refined versions of the technology: Birth Drivers. These will not turn one into a Rider, but will produce a temporary effect depending on the number and type of medals inserted. They will have one slot and time limits on their medals, but will not become addicted or turn into a monster. This encounter still might kill them, so I'm holding it off for a few months.

Guess which one I've worked on more

>> No.24141330

>>24141221
Skull can easily fit into Shadowrun with only a few changes and it'd be cooler than W. Because fuck yeah Skull.

>> No.24141482

>>24139157
Yeah Godai was generic, while almost approaching gary stu levels of being talented at pretty much EVERYTHING and being liked by EVERYONE save the soulless monsters he explodes on a regular basis.

But you know what? He WAS a tremendously likeable character. His cheerful, upbeat attitude and his general self sacrifice of fighting as Kuuga while slowly turning into something inhuman just give his character this wierd magnetism. His supporting cast did a great job in getting you involved as well, even if they were generally simple, almost one-note characters they had a certain "it" to them that just made me connect to them.

I think the only side characters I've felt a wierder connection towards were Tiger and Imperer from Ryuki. And yes, I liked Shinji as a protagonist as well. He was just a well meaning klutz who wanted to be a good journalist and ended up getting dragged into Highlander with Monsters. I can relate to the first part really well.

>> No.24141824

>>24141482
To me, the characters I connected the most with were Hibiki. That series has the most heart of any rider series. I don't even believe Hibiki was the main character. Asumu was. It was a story of his growth. I think he was a lot like what many Rider fans were like going into high school.

>> No.24142081

>>24141330

Somehow I forgot about Skull. My shame knows no bounds

>> No.24142084

>>24141824
Yeah Asumu's as much the MC as Hibiki, if not more. I have to respect Hibiki for trying to break the mold so hard, even harder than Ryuki, even if the stretch after the staff change was...less than ideal.

As for my fascination with Tiger and Imperer: Tiger could very well be me, had my life been shittier or me crazier. He could be any number of fa/tg/uys, really. He's that shy, kind of wierd kid who sits in the back all alone and can't socialize for shit, and all he ever wanted from the get go was to be liked.

His warped idea of justice and heroism were all just his excuses, what he REALLY wanted was people to think highly of him. He even says it himself at one point "I want to be a hero so people will like me". And then that kid, who maybe just needed a real friend, is given the power to murder without consequence and told that the more he murders, the closer he'll get to having a wish fulfilled.

The worst part is, he actually finds a friend, but by that point he's so deluded and drunk on power that he barely realizes that he's made it, he's got someone. He can stop. Instead, he ends up killing his only friend for the pursuit of his fantasies where he's liked by everyone.

Don't get me wrong, Tiger's almost entirely an insane, unbalanced asshole and meant to be an unlikeable character who constantly backstabs people close to him. But you know what? If you go beyond that and actually stop and think about the character, it's fucking genius writing for a Rider show.

>> No.24142149

>>24142084
As for Imperer, I can relate to him in the sense that everyone wishes they could have a better life. Even with all his personality issues, in the end he was just a spoiled, shameless idiot kid who got himself into Battle Royale without realizing how fucking terrifying it'd be, all for the sake of having a nicer life.

And then he got infinite money and was told he had to keep fighting or die. And when he does go to fight, he gets killed. His dying cries of "all I wanted was to be happy" were pretty fucking heartwrenching. Everyone at some point wants a nicer standard of living and he'd made it, only to die before ever getting to enjoy it at all.

>> No.24142466

>>24142084
>even if the stretch after the staff change was...less than ideal.
The Episode 30 Staff Change didn't make the series bad like everyone thinks. It just made the series just as good as your average Kamen Rider series.
Hibiki is THAT good.

>> No.24142565

I kept trying to run a Kamen Rider Game, but I could never find players and the whole thing fell apart when I did find a few - one of the players hadn't even fucking HEARD of Kamen Rider, they just liked the premise I had pitched for the setting.

>> No.24142733

>>24140644
My first was V3, followed by Black, then Agito, Kuuga, Kabuto (what I'm watching currently.), and bits of Wizard. I have some catching up to do, obviously, but Shouichi/Agito were definitely both my favorite Rider and show. That might change, but I liked the fight choreography, the suit design, and the fact that none of the riders in it were overly reliant on silly plastic gizmos or card sliders or shit like that for their powers.

>> No.24142755

>>24142733

I went W, OOO, Fourze, bits of Wizard, Ryuki, and then Kabuto...I'm not sure what my favorite was. Kabuto has really great suit designs though, and I really like Ryuki. I also like the idea of the riders fighting every once and a while. It makes it a little more dramatic and fun to watch. So Kabuto and Ryuki might be my favorites, even though Tendou can be an unlikeable douche and Ryuki has a shitty ending.

>> No.24142811

>>24141482

Is shinji really unliked? I liked him a lot as a character. He really helped bring a lot of humanity into a fight between douchebags. He just wanted to do the right thing and help folks out, and got dragged into something shitty. Even until the end all he wanted to do was be a good guy.

That's pretty chill.

>>24141330

I kind of liked W better than Skull. Shotaro was a fun character.

>> No.24143394

>>24142755
I already watched all the Heisei Era plus Amazon, Black, RX and the Showa movies. I think from all the riders the one i liked more was Fourze, he just has that weird charisma that draw people to him, and is so hot blooded about eveything, especially friendship.

>> No.24146932

>>24143394
The thing I liked about Gentarou the most was that his charisma didn't feel forced. He actually had the charisma he was written with.

>> No.24148019

>>24142811
I dunno, I've heard a lot of complaints about Shinji not being a badass and struggling with deciding what to fight for or even if he really wants to fight. I think it made for a pretty good lead, I could more easily relate to Shinji over most protagonists and I think that was his real strength. He was a nice guy and being around him made other people somewhat nicer.

>> No.24149356

>>24148019
How do you feel about Ryoutarou, from Den-O?

>> No.24149486

>>24149356
He was a nice comedy device when I was in the mood for a comedic slapstick series, and I have to give props to the actor for portraying the multiple personality changes.

>> No.24151482

>>24149486
I don't really like him, but yeah, the actor is phenomenal.

>> No.24151567

>>24151482
What makes it all the more infuriating the cash cow that Den-o became after he left.

>> No.24151651

>>24151567
I do rather like Cho Den-O. Suit's pretty bitching and I would've enjoyed a few movies about him.

>> No.24151695

>>24151651
You should watch OOO, Den-O, All Riders: Let's Go Kamen Riders the 40 years celebration movie.

>> No.24152275

>>24151695
Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen it. It was alright, but I'd like an actual movie with him as the protagonist aside from Episode Blue from the Cho Den-O trilogy. Also I keep calling him Cho Den-O when I mean New Den-O. And yes, I think using New Den-O as the protagonist of the Cho Den-O series would've been ideal. But nope gotta cashcow.

>> No.24152971

Why don't we get some people together and write it up?

A simple system, some setting and background stuff and maybe some example characters shouldn't take too long if we just get a core group of 3 or so dudes.

>> No.24153457

>>24151567
AFTER he left? It was massive BEFORE he left.

>> No.24153497

>>24152971
Again, setting and background stuff depends entirely on what series you pick or how you fuse aspects of disconnected shows which often clash in tone. Ryuki's Riders and world clash pretty hard with other settings, for instance, and most of the 13 Riders shit on the JUSTICE aspect, but you can easily throw in the Mirror World and the whole "lock a monster in a card, it is now your powersource" aspect without having it clash horribly with other stuff.

>> No.24153652

I've never actually finished a whole season of Kamen Rider. Tragic, I know.

Anyway, I thought I'd mention Last Stand, an RPG I bought not so long ago, that features humans in insectoid battlesuits beating the tar out of bizarre monsters for power-ups. OK, so calling it an RPG is kind of a stretch: it's mostly a combat system with other RPG elements tacked on. Still worth a look though

>> No.24155443

>>24153652
I've been on the last five episodes of OOO since Fourze started. How do you think I feel?

>> No.24155929

>>24155443
slow

>> No.24157993

>>24155443
Happy, because the last episodes of Ozu are a trainwreck and Fourze is awesome.

>> No.24158760

>>24157993
>>24143394
>those pics

You know, I'm starting to think Gentaro has a bit of an obsession with this whole friendship thing. In the context of the series it seemed fine, but looking at it objectively it kinda seems like he's compensating for something.

>> No.24158813

>>24158760
You're JUST NOW starting to feel Gentaro takes Friendship a bit far?

HE BEFRIENDED A MAN WHO LITERALLY MURDERED HIM.

That's what makes him a great Kamen Rider.

>> No.24158871

>>24085858

There was one about Kamen Riders versus vampires. It was pretty grim, and it ended up with the remaining two players having a fistfight over whether they should murder an otherwise-innocent girl who'd been infected.

The pro-murder player won, and the last scene of the game was him limping home to kill the girl - Who had been waiting for her lover, the PC who'd been killed, to return to her.

>> No.24158891

>>24158813

Like I said, in context it seemed fine and I didn't really think about it too hard. Now though, yeah it does seem pretty odd.

>> No.24158906

>>24158871
Did they fight on a bridge, in the rain?

Because if so, Inoue, get off the chans.

>> No.24158996

>>24158906

Actually, there were three of them, and they fought the final boss on a skyscraper. The boss had a Kamen Rider gear of his own, and once *that* was defeated, he revealed his true vampiric kaijin form: A three-headed zombie dragon.

A ZOMBIE DRAGON.

So one of the Riders, a clone of Judas Iscariot, sacrificed himself to give the other two and opening. The moment the world was saved, the last two players turned on each other. Since they were too tired to transform, it came down to bare hands and the strength to strangle.

The main bad guy basically wanted to turn everyone in the city into vampires, because he was so advanced he could only feed on...Well, vampiric blood. The PCs were on a tight deadline, because the city would be nuked if his plan succeeded.

>> No.24159913

>>24158871
>>24158996

That actually sounds pretty fucking awesome. Vibes of Faiz.

>> No.24160102

>>24158760
All the Neo-Heisei riders have some theme to their series:
>Double is about protecting the city and not letting people cry.
>Ozu is about greed and desire.
>And now Wizard is about hope.
Fourze theme just happens to be friendship because it was produced right after the tsunami that hit Japan and they wanted to make a hero that the children could look up to.

>> No.24160118

>>24158996
>A being so advanced only vampires can feed his need

So, he was a Pillar Man?

>> No.24160150

>>24160118
Pillar Man?

>> No.24160369

>>24160150
HEEEEEEEYYYY!!!!

>> No.24160448

>>24160369

>> No.24160566

>>24142565
Would anyone be interested in playing a MnM Kamen Rider game?

>> No.24160593

>>24160448
Sorry I'll actually explain.

The Pillar men From Jojo's Bizarre Adventure were ancient Proto-Vampires Who had full control over their own biology, able to devour through physical contact. One of them made the Stone mask to overcome their weakness to the sun, when used on humans it turns them into more typical vampires. The pillar men are able to eat vampires as well.

>> No.24160651

>>24160150
>He doesn't know about the Jojos

Watch some Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and you will understand.

>> No.24160656

>>24160448
>he doesn't know about the Pillar Men

>> No.24160706

>>24160651
Fuck no. I still have to watch two season of GARO

>> No.24160764

>>24160706
GARO's good, but JoJo's better. I'm still kinda suprised the anime was SO FUCKING GOOD, considering the iffy quality of the previous animated releases. But holy shit did David Production deliver.

>> No.24162333

>>24160102
Wasn't Fourze already being designed by the time that happened? Do you think they could've altered the main character that drastically with such little notice?

>> No.24162393

>>24162333
I don't know. I remember that Fourze first appeared in OOO movie Wonderfull, but i don't remember the specifics?

>> No.24163387

>>24160566
I tried stating fourze at PL 10 once... there was so much to him...

>> No.24167124

>>24163387
How did that work out for you? Decade is one thing, but trying to stat OOO or Fourze takes a special kind of person to consider.

>> No.24167494

>>24167124
The answer is to do Arrays in M&M

>> No.24167794

>>24167494
I'm unfamiliar with how M&M works.

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