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[ERROR] No.23459863 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Sup, /tg/.

I'm going to get to the point: I want to play a Paladin. But I've run into a problem: namely, that Paladins suck. They're cool as all hell, but they suck.

How do I make a Paladin that doesn't suck.

Stories of Paladins refusing to fall are cool, too.

>> No.23460206

I'MR TOO DRUNK YTOO TELL MY STORY AND I''M MAD BAOUT IT!

>> No.23460257

>>23460206
I BELIEVE IN YOU, ANON
TRY IT ANYWAY

>> No.23460285

>>23460257
NYpe. TOoo dryunk.

>> No.23460306

>>23460285
YOU CAN FUCKING DO IT

>> No.23460317

>>23460285
COME ON, ANON
YOU CAN DO IT

>> No.23460338

>>23460285

GO FOR IT MAN, WE BELIEVE IN YOU!

>> No.23460348

Play a crusader and flavor it as a paladin, or, if you must take the paladin class, go paladin 2/sorcerer/abjurant champion/various other gish PrCs.

>> No.23460350

>>23460285
THERE'S NO POINT DON'T EVEN TRY

>> No.23460351

If you're running 3.5 pathfinder paladin is good. No this is not telling you to play pathfinder, just import their one truly fix class into 3.5.

>> No.23460352

>>23460306
>>23460317
Taking my time to type. This is hard. Hurts brain. Hate make thinks. Too drunk.

>> No.23460365

>>23460352
Too drunk or not drunk enough?

>> No.23460381

>>23460365
Too. Drunk.

I have a reallyu good Pladalin story but can
t even remember it.

>> No.23460421

>>23460381
Maybe a drink will help you remember.

>> No.23460446

>>23460421
The poster name. Magicall.

More drinking i s indeed th ansrew.

>> No.23460454

I played a goblin paladin who followed a goblin god of bright lights and sun, and lightning. He stuck to a code of honor that consisted of a long, complicated list of vows that were full of loopholes, vague wording, and triple negatives. It was awesome.

>> No.23460624

Had a couple glasses of water, my roommate slapped me to wake me up, and he's also cleaning up the errors once I'm done.

I can't go into detail because, as you might have noticed, I'm very drunk.

Long story short: I played a Paladin of Kord, never told the other players I was a Paladin, and my character was styled as something between a luchador and Ultimate Warrior without being too obvious what I was doing. I had them all convinced I was a gladiator until the reveal.

There were such awesome escapades as tackling a vampire and taking him off a boat with a pile driver into the river, arm wrestling a storm giant and punching him to death when I lost, and I jumped off a roof to kick to kick a bandit in the face.

You'd think I'd have an awesome death story to go with this character, but no. He got old and retired. Not everything is perfect and I'm not here to make shit up. Unless you count what happened in the game, seeing as it's totally not real.

>He had something here at the end I couldn't fucking figure out. He lost his moment of coherency. I THINK it was something about telling the story better some day. That's my guess.

>> No.23460654

>>23460624
Thanks drunkanon's roommate bro.

>> No.23460681

>>23460421
And he says the name on your post it the funniest thing he's seen all night.

While that is hilarious I don't believe him because earlier someone sneezed really hard and said they were worried that they pooped and he laughed so hard he passed out. I'm starting to worry that he's in danger. He's drank a fifth of scotch, two bottles of Jack, and a couple cups of something one of our friends made in his garage.

He got fired recently and is celebrating/grieving.

And it's fucking hilarious.

>> No.23460692

>>23460654
Sorry I kind of ruined it by not letting him shriek and babble his story to you.

>> No.23460696

>>23460257
>>23460257
>>23460206
>>23460206
>BELIEVE IN YOURSELF

>> No.23460770

>>23460654
He just yelled "I AM DRUNK-NON!" and stomped past our WarmaHordes armies and, I swear to Kord, did the best impression of the Nazgul shriek's in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings movies and he hip thrusted at a wall a couple times.

Then he fell down. He's still down. We're letting him rest.

>> No.23460821

>>23460770
Write an IOU note for one story addressed to /tg/.

Forge his signature on it and tell him he signed it while drunk.

>> No.23460831

Shit what was the name of that one paladin who went to northern lands and killed an ice queen or something like that. I think it was a half orc but it was really long and in parts that started with saving a town from an evil leader.

>> No.23460850

>>23460821
I'll remind him.

Also, I'm really sorry that he hijacked the shit out of this thread. He's fun as hell, but so very distracting.

>> No.23460912

>>23460770
Make sure to roll him to his ventral side, interpretor-anon.

>> No.23460976

>>23460912
>>23460912
Oh yeah. No worries on that. We're in Southern Indiana: We've had practice at this.

Thanks for the help though. Always appreciated.

>> No.23461003

story time OP

>> No.23461028

Oh shit he's up and decided that RIGHT NOW is the time to learn to play "Once Bitten Twice Shy."

I wish every one of you could be here. Plugging in his guitar was an adventure that I'd call an Extravaganza of Human Perseverance.

>I wish I had Paladin stories, to stay on topic, but I've never played one. I've got a very bad case of the "Always Play Neutral"s. Big on rogue's and artificers.

>> No.23461040

>>23461003

>> No.23461071

this on OP is obligatory to undersatnd what drives a paladin to seek justice

>> No.23461095

>>23461071
sorry for the spelling

>> No.23461101

>>23461028
I think you should do the right thing and make him the King of Youtube.

>> No.23461133

>>23461101
That's a fantastic idea, but when we start drinking we all lock our phones in a lock box and hang the key on a little hook we put on the ceiling.

It's a forced rule ever since ONE OF US, WHO I WON'T NAME got a restraining order put on him over the way he...uh...professed his affects for a girl.

Besides, he got about a minute into just making very bizarre sounds and then yelled "FUCK IT!" and started playing "Round and Round" by Ratt WAY better than makes sense right now.

>> No.23461135

>>23461095
if the DM tries to make you fall remember this

>> No.23461153

Hear me out; whenever I'm thinking about being a paladin in any system of setting I always end up using a really devoted cleric instead because they just seem more fun and interesting.

Anyone else experiencing the same? I can't be the only one.

>> No.23461160

>>23461135
Mr Rage cannot be argued with.

Because he's an intelligent man who speaks with purpose and has measured his every comment and he only uses his trip when it matters.

He's a hero to us all.

>> No.23461194

>>23461135
not a paladin but worth of praise

>> No.23461208 [DELETED] 

>>23461194
another "face" of justice

>> No.23461213

Is it just me or does anyone else refuse to read screen cap stories?

>> No.23461230

>>23461194
damn have to re upload

>> No.23461253 [DELETED] 

>>23461071
>This is not to say that the ends justify the means

Yes it is. That's exactly what this said. When you say that doing evil is worth it because it results in a greater good, you are saying that the ends justify the means. That is EXACTLY what that means. There is no conceivable argument that can be made to the contrary of this. You cannot say that doing evil in the cause of good is acceptable, and then say that this doesn't mean that just because you said so, you cannot say that something that you acknowledge as evil stops being evil because it is necessary, particularly when what you're trading it for is not something objectively good.

Why is it Good for humans to exist forever? What is the intrinsic good of humans existing forever? You're a Paladin, you believe in good, just gods, you know that there's an afterlife, the physical form is entirely transitory, what you are fighting to protect is not the human form or human proliferation, but the human SPIRIT, the sanctity of human life, the idea that no person is entitled to kill another person for profit, the idea that people are worth more than the sum of their parts, that there is an intrinsic value to life, to justice, to morality, that transcends mere utility.

This... This profanity is literally saying that it is worth doing Evil... As a PALADIN... For 'invincibility.' For fucking power. Do you understand what it means to say something like that? To say, "Well, evil is ok, as long as it gives us power." Why is nobody furious at this post?

>> No.23461254

>>23461213
seems that way

>> No.23461260

>>23461040
>This is not to say that the ends justify the means

Yes it is. That's exactly what this said. When you say that doing evil is worth it because it results in a greater good, you are saying that the ends justify the means. That is EXACTLY what that means. There is no conceivable argument that can be made to the contrary of this. You cannot say that doing evil in the cause of good is acceptable, and then say that this doesn't mean that just because you said so, you cannot say that something that you acknowledge as evil stops being evil because it is necessary, particularly when what you're trading it for is not something objectively good.

Why is it Good for humans to exist forever? What is the intrinsic good of humans existing forever? You're a Paladin, you believe in good, just gods, you know that there's an afterlife, the physical form is entirely transitory, what you are fighting to protect is not the human form or human proliferation, but the human SPIRIT, the sanctity of human life, the idea that no person is entitled to kill another person for profit, the idea that people are worth more than the sum of their parts, that there is an intrinsic value to life, to justice, to morality, that transcends mere utility.

This... This profanity is literally saying that it is worth doing Evil... As a PALADIN... For 'invincibility.' For fucking power. Do you understand what it means to say something like that? To say, "Well, evil is ok, as long as it gives us power." Why is nobody furious at this post?

>> No.23461293

>>23461253
Pic related. I tried three times. All that came out was a garbled mess glued together by rage.

>> No.23461310

>>23461260
well you are...
this screencap would make up for it

>> No.23461315

>>23459863

If you're playing 4e, then Paladins are top tier.

If not, then play a cleric instead, n00b.

>> No.23461375

>>23461260
In your honor, I'm going to play the national anthem of Serbia on loop for two hours.

>> No.23461401

>>23459863
OP is more like what can you do to make the character COOL regardless of stats numbers
>> pic related

>> No.23461409

>>23461260

Because he admits that he deserves to fall.

>> No.23461417

>>23459863
try the paladin from this

>> No.23461482

>>23461417

Wow that's still a piece of shit.

>> No.23461516

>>23461417
That was so fucking lame.

>> No.23461625

>>23461409
Admitting that you deserve to fall, as a Paladin, is the same as admitting that what you did was wrong. The moral code of the Paladin is clear on this. You fall if you willfully commit an evil act. The entire POINT of Paladins is not to do evil, to protect Good, to enforce justice.

The source of rancor here is that this person is insinuating that it's a Paladin's DUTY to do evil and suffer the punishment for it in the name of some nebulous concept of 'the greater good,' which in reality is just power. Power for his race. That it is somehow worth it to abandon the precepts of Paladinhood in exchange for something as banal as biological continuation of a species past its allotted competitiveness. It's essentially claiming that one is making a Christ-like sacrifice, except instead of sacrificing oneself for the sins of mankind, it is sacrificing A CHILD on the alter of human power. That is the single most antithetical thing to the concept of a paladin that there is.

In short, the man says "I like to play Paladins when they're conflicted," but what he means is, "I like to play Paladins who willingly do the exact opposite of what Paladins do, for reasons that a Paladin should not respect." That isn't a conflicted Paladin, it's a fucking Blackguard.

>> No.23461690

>>23461310
That is pretty great though. Sorry to derail the thread.

>> No.23461789

If a paladin is convinced that he is doing good, will he fall?

E.G. Insane paladin is under the assumption that he is killing evil people who are actually good people.

>> No.23461836

>>23461789
Yes. Paladins follow a code set up by a god or deific being, eventually, he'll lose his powers and have to wonder why.

>> No.23461848

>>23461789
The good that a Paladin represents is independent of him. So, I would guess yes. However, an insane Paladin may well make the transition between Paladin and Blackguard seamlessly, switching out his levels in such a way that he is never really aware of what has happened to him.

Insanity, though, is no exemption from alignment. CE pointedly included the criminally insane, which is what a person who snaps and starts murdering honest people is.

>> No.23461949

>>23461789
I'd say he falls.

But he's not without the chance for atonement and redemption. It would make for a good character arc, where he regains his sanity and tries to right the wrongs he did.

>> No.23461956

>>23461625

Keyword is "willingly". You cannot force or trick a paladin into falling if he wholeheartedly tried to fulfill his code, even if innocents die in the process outside of his abilities.

>> No.23461983

>>23461956
Right - trying and failing is a whole different ball game than allowing it, or even just giving up half way. It's just usual for paladins to die trying rather than survive, but there are the occasional knights that don't know how to die...

>> No.23462131

>>23461956
Definitely. The irony is that the subject of this whole argument is actually the perfect example of how someone falls, and why it is so horrible, because when an individual who is sworn to uphold truth, justice, and the Lawful Good way at all costs without erring from the path suddenly snaps and says "you know what? Fuck it, it's worth getting my hands dirty if the payoff's good," it's a slap in the face to everyone else who stands for those ideals.

You can't trick a Paladin into falling, you can't fool a Paladin into falling. In that regard I agree entirely with Mr. Rage. A Paladin falls when he loses faith in Good, and turns to evil to accomplish his ends. Even if those ends are still good ends, what he's done is sully the entire concept of good. If good can come from evil, doesn't that mean that evil is just as legitimate as good? Doesn't that mean that fighting evil is pointless? Doesn't that mean that in a way, it's good that is the problem, not evil? It's saying that the ends justify the means, when the point of the Paladin is in fact that there ARE NO ENDS. Nothing ever ends. There is no 'end goal' that one passes and then nothing afterwards or before matters. Life goes on, and it is colored by what people do, each moment is a new world that is built on the actions of the last, and if the actions that bring about a new world are evil, then the world is evil, regardless of how comfortable it is. It is this acknowledgment that characterizes Paladins. There is no Win Condition, but there is a lose condition. The final revelation of being a Paladin is that what you are doing is trying to create a world in which evil is not necessary, without using evil means, because to use them would acknowledge that evil was necessary to achieve the perfect world, and this legitimize evil, rendering the entire exercise pointless.

"It isn't about Winning" should be the motto of the Paladin.

>> No.23462164

>>23462131
So what you're saying is, a Paladin should not use evil means, even if it tangibly and directly results in a greater good?

>> No.23462227

>>23462164
Yes. That's basically the point.
If you want to do some ends-justify-the-means, there's a class in Complete Scoundrel called the Grey Guard, has a long series of abilities to let Paladins get away with torture and acting, well, a bit more shady.

>> No.23462244

>>23462164
That is exactly what I'm saying. If the fate of the human race rests on one act of evil, the Paladin must be the one with the courage to say "no." People try to skirt around this issue. They try to portray it as noble to compromise when it results in an outcome that advantages them. They will say that the Paladin should have the 'courage' to do something evil that benefits him, or people he knows, directly. They will say that the Paladin is 'selfish' to stick to the virtues that underpin his entire philosophy of righteousness when faced with someone else's sick, nihilistic imposition, rather than giving in and acknowledging the futility of his own struggle.

These people are wrong. The Paladin is not there to pragmatically execute children to benefit his own race, the Paladin is there to say "No. Nothing justifies evil."

>> No.23462250

>>23462164
A "greater good" implies that there are lesser evils. For a Paladin, there is no such thing. Evil is evil.

>> No.23462380

>>23461956
Come to think of it, it's kind of like Asimov laws.

>> No.23462473

>>23461095
This is how you Paladin properly

>> No.23462499

>>23461213
You seem a sad sort, because a lot of them are rather good

>> No.23462524

>>23462499
I don't deny that they could be good. There's just something about them that bother me.

I think it's the same part of my brain that auto-hates cover songs.

>> No.23462627

>>23462524
Johnny Cash's cover of Hurt was amazing, and you should feel terrible for disliking it.

>> No.23462795

>>23462627
Jonny Cash's cover of Hurt was a thousand times better than the original.

I'm sorry that I was too general in my description. There are absolutely songs better than the original, but they are very, very few and far inbetween.

Cash doing Hurt, Priest doing Diamonds and Rust, Richard Cheese doing whatever...there are lots of great coveres.

But I start out hating covers. They have to win me over by being something special.

>> No.23462798

>>23462627
Seconded

>> No.23462807

It took a long time to come to grips with what a Paladin means. And it was so very simple. Being a Paladin is, to me, being the kind of person who will Do The Right Thing.

The Right Thing is fluid. What I consider to be Right may not be totally in line with how you envision it, or even how Kord or Dol Arrah or Bahamut sees it. That's not the point. The point is that it comes from you, both as a player and as a character. If you cannot understand in what your character stands for, you cannot bring that conviction into how they are portrayed, and you'll lose out on something.

Deep down, you know what the Right Thing is. It is the morals, the standards, your expectations of yourself and of the world. People make compromises. The Paladin does not. The Paladin stands firm against everything that would stop him from doing the Right Thing. He brings the weight of his faith, the fire of his very being to bear against a world that wants him to compromise what he is. And yea, the world WILL back down before him.

>> No.23462813

>>23462807
It's been covered before that it doesn't mean you have to be Lawful Stupid. If your personal code of justice, of Right, demands that the dead have their justice, then you may be well within your rights of interpretation to take the lives of their murderers in retribution. Or then again, you might not. It's up to you.

The matter of most importance isn't what you feel the Right Thing means to you as a character. The real test - what separates a true Paladin from a mere man of faith - is how you stand for it.

>> No.23462890

>>23459863
I played a paladin once. He was pretty neat. I liked it.

Then after the game was over, we all got post-game epilogues from the GM. Mine was, "That red dragon you met once? You impressed her, so she enslaved you[r character]."

He was then a miniboss in the next campaign that GM ran.

That stuff was a bit less neat.

>> No.23462923

>>23462890
That's stupid
Why would your GM do that if for no other reason then to be a dick?

>> No.23462939

>> No.23462978

>>23462939
To be fair, this thread is more about Paladins NOT falling.

>> No.23462986

>>23462890
And you didn't call bullshit because...?

>> No.23462993

>>23462978
It's a pun. Because the paladin in the story literally fell down off a tower.

>> No.23463035

>>23462813
>>23462244
I think this man had it right.
Also, filename.

>> No.23463118

>>23462923
>>23462986
I have no idea. He's a great GM except for that one odd instance.

>city of kobolds ruled by red dragon
>rest of party are being retards and torturing someone; don't know in character because I'm elsewhere
>rest of party are discovered, flee arrest/resist guards
>guards come for me because I'm known to be with other party members
>I know draconic, guards don't look like they're intent on hauling me back to jail and then murdering me in a cell, have good reason to suspect, me, I have no (real) reason to suspect local legal system
>go quietly
>check out alibis, detect lies, etc, determine I was not involved in torturing/breaking and entering; I'm clear
>I'm kept around a bit longer until fucking epic level red dragon ruling the city decides to come down and personally chat me up
>apparently impressed that I was willing to be a reasonable law-abiding citizen, or maybe trust her legal system. Whatever.
>offers to make me her chosen servant. (OOC offered some weirdass homebrew half-dragon template)
>panic
>Decline as politely as I can (fluff-wise, claim to be descended from a knight; explain that ancestor of mine was a dragonslayer, I can't accept and become some crazy half-dragon, knowing what he'd think of me)
>crazy epic level dragon lady seems to accept it.
>offers me job (go and get ultra-dangerous macguffin for her; explain that she can't use it, but since it's a horrible ungodly powerful widget, she wants to hold on to it and make sure nobody else can)
>crazy epic level dragon lady with crazy epic level social skills
>okay.jpg
>rest of party is remanded to my custody and rest of campaign consists of going to get macguffin for the dragon that has wholly convinced me that she might be evil, but this is still for the greater good
cue
>epilogue; dragon uses (as far as I could tell,) epic-level spell "enslave" on character

And that, as they say, was that. Might even have been cool on another character, but that just felt like a downer.

>> No.23463143

>>23463118
Sounds like your GM had a boner for dragon ladies, and that was a dick move he played on you.

>> No.23463159

>>23463143
Pretty sure that DM was gay and wanted to buttfuck dragons.

>> No.23463184

>>23463159
Either way it wasn't nice thing to do. The damage is done so no point in arguing with the GM anymore, but you should be more assertive in the future about these kinds of things.

>> No.23463252

>>23463159
Not sure where you get that.

>>23463143
His thing seems to be for kobolds, actually. And since he browses /tg/ occasionally, yeah, I went there.

In interests of ALL fairness, let me elaborate on the ending:
>return, hand over macguffin, campaign end, get asked what we want in end-campaign reward
>think about it
>one hand, crazypowerful evil dragon, don't want to ask too much from her
>other hand, end campaign, we did good, he's not going to cock us over just 'cause while we can't respond, right? (first campaign with this GM)
>think about character
>ask for land and title. Preferably not under her, but just getting a nice little barony I can retire on and be a noble on.

>ends up as epic dragon lady's right hand minion

I guess dragon decided she didn't want landed minions who weren't guaranteed to be loyal, or something. I mean, hell, dragonpoon is like, a perfectly laudable murderhobo goal, (about as sane as anything else they do,) but it just seemed so out of left field for that character.

>>23463184
Everyone had epilogue emailed to them, but apparently GM didn't have my email down right, or something, so I've still yet to get the official epilogue and only have the shorthand version (the dragon made you her bitch) yet. GM is aware he will never live it down. Runs a mean game, great to play with too, which just makes this one isolated incident So Fucking Weird.

>> No.23463412

>>23459863
In what, 3.5? Play a Crusader instead, it's the same thing and doesn't suck.

In another system? Shouldn't suck out of the box.

You need a system where they're fucking awesome? Oddly enough, some guy in another thread is posting previews of a system he's releasing tomorrow, and his paladin preview looks baller as all fuck. >>23460085 So you should hope he delivers and play that.

>> No.23463781

>>23461194
thats epic. Maelstrom Serpent? stolen

>> No.23466773

OP here. Bumping so I can respond to all this later.

>> No.23468250

Man, I fucking love Paladin stories. I can only hope to be half as cool as these guys.

For those of you wondering, yes, this is 3.5. We're starting at third level, and I'm interested in playing a Warforged Paladin. I'm sticking to Paladin because I want detect evil and that sweet, sweet immunity to stunning. I'll only be taking 3 levels of Paladin, but all 3 of those levels will be the Warforged racial substitution.

A Warforged Paladin gets 4 class features that are necessary for my continued well-being as a do-gooder robot man: Smite Construct (for free), the ability to add my constitution bonus to my will saves, the ability for Lay on Hands to affect constructs, and complete and total immunity to stunning and fear.

After this, the class pretty much goes to shit. So I'll probably multiclass into Crusader but the DM is enforcing multiclassing rules. Hilariously enough, the party consists of a Warblade and a Cleric... both Chaotic Neutral. And the Cleric specializes in necromancy, but it doesn't seem to be inherently evil in this world... so I think we'll be alright.

>> No.23468430

>>23463035
Pic related is how I Paladin.

Actually it has a lot of great points on alignment.

>> No.23468604

Stop playing D&D
Make Paladin in a more free system
?????
PALADIN NO LONGER SUXXX

>> No.23468718

>>23461194

Now that is how you kill a BBEG

>> No.23468728

>>23463035
If Rorschach was a Paladin, he was LOOOONG fallen.

He was entirely for the end justifies the means, so long as the ends were torture and the means were beating the crap out of someone he'd decided was immoral.

>> No.23469385

>>23468728
I think he meant he's like Rorschach in that he completely refuses to give any leeway to evil in any way.

I doubt he tortures half as much as Rorschach.

>> No.23469429

>>23468430
I never pictured Michael as looking like Billy Mays...but now I can't UNSEE him as Billy Mays.

>> No.23469460

>>23468430
What is this?

>> No.23469570

>>23469460
The Knights of the Cross from the Dresden files series. Center is Michael Carpenter, a friend of Dresden's and the one we see most, and a genuinely righteous man. He does the right thing without expectation of reward, and when he's in his element [kicking evil's ass] he's genuinely terrifying to behold - He's, in-setting, one of the few people acknowledged to have killed a fucking dragon. There's a Dresden Files RPG, and the only dragon statted in it reads like the rules on fighting Cain in Vampire - 'Haha, wait, are you serious? No. No no no. You lose.'

Harry's described him more than once as The Fist of God, and it's a reasonable title for the guy.

Despite that, he's also a complete sweetheart, a ridiculously good person, and a devoted family man.

>> No.23469600

>>23459863

Slaying a dragon helps.

>> No.23469632

>>23468430

>I fucking missed that post

Bless whoever drew that.

>>23469429

He looks like a cross between Billy Mays and the Aliens guy to me

>> No.23472769

>>23469600
What if it's a metallic dragon?

>> No.23472887

>>23472769
Antipaladin?

>> No.23473476

>>23472887
That's such a stupid name.

>> No.23473569

>>23473476
A bit, yeah.

>> No.23476182

>>23473476
we could always do it the 4e way and just have it be a paladin to an evil god

>> No.23476569

Regarding evil acts done for a greater good... I think it depends. Is it evil to allow someone to die whom you could have saved? Ten people? Ten thousand? Ten million? I know that's disdained as a cheap DM trick, but I think it's a legitimate moral question if it's not overused.

>> No.23476734

>>23476569
That's usually around the time when the Paladin says fuck no, and smite evils the motherfucker offering him the fucked up choice.

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER!

>> No.23476780

>>23476734
What if the one offering the choice is far too powerful to just destroy like that, and if the paladin's death would mean that both bad outcomes would come to pass?

>> No.23476794

>>23476780
Then that's a badly written scenario that defeats the purpose of roleplaying to begin with.

>> No.23476856

>>23476569
Generally the moral codes of paladins or their gods aren't based on utilitarian calculuses.
If your entire moral system is based around the concept of a basic level of respect or something similar then it doesn't matter how many people you save.

>> No.23476870

>>23476794
All right, new idea. Let's say it's not an individual making an offer. Let's say the paladin would, say, have to use an evil artifact to destroy some powerful monster bearing down on a village somewhere, and has no other means of doing so (you could say that this is just another cheap DM trick, but it's something that might happen to paladins in-universe when their hands aren't being held by level appropriateness, so bear with me). What would be the proper response?

>>23476856
So a good outcome is less important than not doing evil? A lack of evil is more important than the presence of good?

>> No.23476896

>>23468430
I always imagined Sanya with long hair for some reason

>> No.23476974

>>23476896
Same. I'm almost under the impression that it was mentioned somewhere that he had a pony tail.

>> No.23477000

>>23476870
What makes the artifact evil? If it requires the soul of an infant, then the Paladin refuses, makes his peace, gets the people of the village to safety, and meditates in prayer until the monster comes and kills him.

Death is preferable to damnation.

>> No.23477003

>>23476870
>So a good outcome is less important than not doing evil? A lack of evil is more important than the presence of good?
Well it depends on your moral system. In some yes the idea of a basic level respect humans beings should be afforded overrides utilitarian good.
For example, imagine a village where everyone in it lived comfortable perfect lives. They are well fed, they are happy, they feel fulfilled in what they do etc. no one suffers ever. In order to maintain this one small girl must be tortured in a basement in the town. She must be in constant suffering.
The net gain is LOTS of people are very happy and in comparison to one individual its a massive net good.
It's a rather weighted example but certain moral frameworks would argue that a net gain in happiness is meaningless if it undermines a basic level of respect we should have for human beings as autonomous actors.

>> No.23477014

>>23476974
>Giant ponytailed Russian Knight in Shining Armor type
>Sanya's goofy sense of humor
>Dat ability to always be where he's needed

10/10 would be saved by.

>> No.23477024

>>23477014
Agreed.

>> No.23477070

>>23477000
The artifact doesn't require you to actually do anything evil to prime it, it's just that the thing itself is evil and its powers come from an evil source.

>>23477003
My utilitarianism has pain "weigh" more than pleasure, and multiply more exponentially by amount, so yes, that example would be highly immoral. However, if one is willing to take such suffering into oneself to save others, as in the paladin example...

>> No.23477144

>>23477070
>My utilitarianism
Well the paladin might not go by your system.
And is it just a matter of the number of people benefiting from the suffering?

>> No.23477173

>>23477144
No, I consider numbers of people to be far less important than the amount of suffering inflicted.

>> No.23477632

>>23477070
I wouldn't really call that an evil item.

It's like a gun. You can do evil or good with it, but there's no evil intent on the part of the item. Why should I be afraid of using it?

>> No.23477675

>>23477014
We had a Russian knight-in-shining-armor type in the Dresden Files game I played in.

I swear everybody in the party was at least a little gay for him.

>> No.23478108

>>23476780
Then you at least try to say fuck that and pick a third option. Paladins don't compromise. In my mind. That's part of why they're paladins. They're dedicated to a ideal. That means you don't compromise or betray it.

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