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[ERROR] No.23331368 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Ultimate Antagonist Thread

Specifically for a D&D Universe but others RPGs are fine too.


Also, what makes an enemy interesting and fun to play against?

>> No.23331396

The ability to accept their motives, even if their methods or goals require they be fought against.

>> No.23331420

An ideology that makes you want to change sides and when you finally beat them it seems a shame.

>> No.23331421

>>23331396
What do you mean, like the players know what the antagonist is planning and they just have to accept?

>> No.23331427

>>23331421
I think its more that they understand why they do what they do.

>> No.23331447

>>23331421
Like, they sympathize with him, but he took it too far so they need to stop him.

>> No.23331449

I'm more of an simple man
A good Antagonist must be someone who you must like to hate

>> No.23331451

OP here,
currently in my campaign I'm having the players work against the King and Queen of a tumblr-esque, feminist, gender-queer empire and so far it works in getting them riled up with hatred, but is there a way to do it without the political element?

>> No.23331466

A good enemy has a personal code of ethics or behaviors, something that makes him stand out and memorable. A pirate king who won't tell a lie, a blackguard who, while quite a skilled fighter, prefers to handle things politically, or a being who sees themselves as the purest expression of perfection, and everyone else is an abomination (thought they will be spared if they submit to him and scar themselves to show servitude).

A unique item or description helps as well. Someone with a grafted beholder eye in place of one lost, or a shield with mind control properties upon those who gaze at its emblem.

>> No.23331482

>>23331451
This just seems like a bad idea honestly

>> No.23331484

>>23331451
By royal decree all first born son will be put to death.

>> No.23331501

Realistic motivations and human qualities. Pure evil people aren't interesting or fun antagonists.

>> No.23331503

A good antagonist is one the PC's fear as well as anticipate fighting.

After all, when the BBEG shows up, shit should get serious.

>> No.23331513

It requires good build up. You have to hint at the foe, and when you finally reveal them, make your players faceplam at "How did I not see this coming?!" Give them a red herring BBEG, for instance, my players thought they were on a simple quest to kill an elder dragon, turns out they were actually luring out an ancient eldritch god of Harvest so they could "hopefully" slay it.

>> No.23331519

>>23331466
> How make interesting character?
> Make them revolve around one big quirk!

True brilliance at work here. Who needs character depth.

> PIG meatrm
Speaks for itself, don't it?

>> No.23331531

>>23331484
That sort of thing

>> No.23331582

I go for a two tier approach. It's actually fairly common in literature to do this kind of thing:

First, you want a face of evil. Like others have been saying, someone the party might be able to understand, or at least who's motives are understandable. While undoubtedly evil and in need of a stopping, the party should likely feel that with a few changes none of this would've been necessary.

Second, you want a destructive force. Something primal, brutal evil. The first can cause, or feed into, or become the second; there's no reasoning, just a world ending/conquering threat that will ruin shit. It can be overwhelmingly powerful, such as a god, or grow from something tiny, like an unstoppable swarm; but its the threat.

When you've got both of these elements in play correctly, the party will remain motivated, and have an engaging villain while also having a chance to be "the good guys". This will differ from group to group in how much "good guy" you want, but I find its not a bad idea to have a little.

>> No.23331602

>>23331519
You miss the point. Find that one quirk, then explore it. Find the edges. You've got the fact that he's evil, and another personality trait. How do the two interact? Why? One of the best villians I've fought was a robot bent on destroying humanity (evil). He copied himself into any computer he could to make a more perfect world (narcissism). But why? Because he had a fear of death. He knew that he wouldn't have an afterlife, but unlike humans, he could live forever. Thus his primary objective.

It's not that hard.

>> No.23331656

Bear with me

Alduin from Skyrim.

The world-eater. Chaotic good.

If I understood the story correctly, he's suppose to eat the world in order for a new one to be born, and he does pretty batshit insane things for this to happen. He has this uncontrollable urge to just dominate and full fill that prophecy that yea he eats worlds but he also creates them, and he feel a sense of that he must do it no matter what. He just have to make sure that the people who may live at least have a chance at it, even if it means that those who enjoy life now have to make it a little shorter, right? Better something than nothing, right?

He's like a super radical anti-abortionist.

>> No.23331751

>>23331656

That's not quite right. Alduin doesn't create worlds, he only destroys the world at the end of every kalpa. This time around, he tried to act outside the bounds of his role and dominate the lesser races, leading to the main plot of TESV

>> No.23331781

>>23331656

I just don't see it. Alduin is a terrible antagonist the first thing he does trying to kill you is save you and sits on his ass all day doing nothing until you have the means to kill him. Even his status as world-eater is vague and never materializes into any sense of urgency. Even went you fight him before before the final confrontation he is a fucking push-over.

>> No.23331798

an antagonist you can relate and give all your feels even after you beat them are the best

>> No.23331840

>>23331781
Even other dragons think he's a dweeb.

>> No.23331848

One who isn't so obvious with their scheme. A villain who makes the party question their choices and whether or not the villain is the bad guy or your ally. To the point that they even question whether or not it would be wrong to kill this villain. Maybe he's got a way with words. I just finished Dragon Age: Awakening a few days ago and the Architect really made me question whether or not it was a good idea to let him go or kill him.

Maybe it won't be surprising when in the next few years. He's amassed an army of epic proportions and plans on killing you. Or he helps you until the end before deciding to betray you when you get to your supposed last "BBEG".
But alas, I think it might be a trope that is overused..

>> No.23331856

>>23331420

>> No.23331861

>>23331781
Actually, Alduin was busy resurrecting dragons and juicing up via eating souls in Sovngarde.

>> No.23331902

Being able to relate with their goals (this king and kingdom fucked me over a million ways, so now I'm going to exact revengeance)

And generally make him something you could have aspired to. A charismatic underdog. A steadfast and honorable man with infallible logic.

>> No.23331917

Morality is relative. One's actions, although could be considered despicable, may be for some greater good that the PCs are not aware of. Depending on the execution and the PCs' actions, this could make for an interesting twist once they encounter the BBEG.

>> No.23331947

I'm really liking a lot of the ideas posted ITT, I'll take these into account.

>> No.23331971

>>23331781

I.. Yea, but I'd blame being a push-over on the PC always being OP in pretty much all Elders scroll games.

And him killing you is, yea, he fails at that. I'm pretty sure he doesn't kill anyone when attacking Helga.

Anyway, I think of him like a force of nature, another world just trying to be able to exist after "nirn" is devoured. You even have a conversation about the greybeard about what will happen when the new world now won't exist and everyone is all "lolwhocarestheir problem".

Also, he Alduin will resurrect once more. You don't take his soul when you kill him.

>> No.23332015

An antagonist you want to redeem.

An antagonist who has the same goals you do, but is willing to go too far to succeed.

An antagonist who offers to love you, whether as parent to child or partner.

>> No.23332069

Well, There was a batshit insane villain we had once. Whenever we ran into him we would always freak out. He seemed pretty tame.

Until he decapitated me. And then I had my head duct-taped back on.

>> No.23332126

Why does /tg/ like so much the "villain that makes sense"? All of you seem to really like villains who are making justice for themselves, or a cause, but that justice hurts a lot of people.

I mean, I don't consider this archetype any better, or more complex, or even less common AT ALL than, say, a sadistic or powerhungry villain.

>> No.23332167

The really important thing I'd consider is how involved the villain is throughout the story and how his actions ripple with the party in one way or another. Make them feel for or against the villain, but you got to make them feel and that needs personal impacts.

Personally I love villains who are diametrically opposed to a character (preferably multiple different ones in the party if capable.) rather than forced to do or apathetic in evil. Nemesisism (is that a word?) is also another trait I like in villains. Ultimately it's subjective, know who your players are and what kind of adventure they're playing.

>> No.23332182

>>23332126
It's just more emotionally provoking. It shouldn't be the only type of villain, all things in moderation, but it's still the most memorable.

Second best is the cunning sociopath who is willing to fuck over anybody who you just want to annihilate for being a total cock.

I think most villains should be a little more well rounded though, just unscrupulous people who still have loyalties and friendships and standards, however minimal. Makes the other villainous types stand out more.

>> No.23332217

The main antagonist for my group is going to be a Wizard they poisoned at level 5. He's "Dead".

At first it'll only look like the leavings of his plans coming to independent fruition, but he still has influence in the mortal plane, due to several rituals where he bound his consciousness, mainly in these areas important to said plans, but also in a failsafe layer.

I'm excited because they think they won, and haven't a clue.
>Oops, the L12 Wizard just keels over dead

>2013
>Not a homunculus.

>> No.23332241

>>23332217
My bad, left my name field from an earlier thread

>> No.23332258

Make them Charismatic and smug, someone who doesn't need to act right away, because he's just so above it. You want your players going "I like him" and at the same time say "What a smug asshole!"

One of the most remembered villians in my group was a rip off of Smaug, not because he was a dragon, but because he was just so smug and above it all, he toyed with them, but in that toying he felt very real. He felt like someone you'd love to see fall, just so you could stand above him and snark back down.

>> No.23332267

>>23331856
>Implying I'm not already on his side.

>> No.23332326

>>23332015
this

>> No.23332381

>>23332182
It's actually not more emotionally provoking.
Joffrey from the chronicles of ice and fire is one of the most hated characters ever (I'm not saying that because "I hate him", but because everyone I kow hates him), and he's just a sadistic little prick.
Diablo from the video game series used to be especially memorable, and he didn't have any kind of "corrupted morality" or anything like that that ould provoke sympathy. The only reason you had to sympathize with him was the fact of him being a total badass.
Dracula, in Bram Stoker's book, is little more than a very cunning animal, driven by instincts. In the 1992 movie, however, he had those reasons and that love bound, but did that make that movie's Dracula superior AS A VILLAIN to Christopher Lee's many Draculas, or Bram Stoker's?

It actually feels like a weird preference of /tg/. I can't explain it, but it makes me very curious.

>> No.23332392

I think making a memorable villain comes down to tragedy.

They need to have a believable reason to do what they do, and they need to be portrayed as somebody to be pitied, as well as feared. It's why the Joker works. It's why Nox works. Whether it's a personal tragedy of their own causing, or some outside force beyond their control, almost every truly memorable villain will make the player think "I would hate to be that guy, but what he's doing can't go on."

Works even better if your players try their hardest to redeem or save them instead of simply stopping or killing them. Make your players feel sorry for them, make them draw parallels between themselves and the villain that lead to them wanting to save him/her. Makes for some extremely emotional encounters, which in turn make for a very good story.

>> No.23332401

Make it clear that their still an evil monster that needs stopping, but give them a something that really hits ya in the feels.

>> No.23333199

>>23332401
YES!

>> No.23334357

>> No.23334434

>> No.23334477

NO ONE STOPS
IT'S WAY TOO LATE TO STOP
NO. ONE. STOPS.

>> No.23334524

>>23334477
CAVIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. God I miss them.

>> No.23334586

>>23334524
You SURE about that?

>> No.23334632

>>23334586
Yes. A million times yes. Cavia was unique in their hatred of the player. Nier was an endless ride of "You the player suck." I loved drakengard despite the shit game play.

>> No.23334653

>>23332258
It's similar to how I've got my one BBEG herring set up.

Basically a Mage that finds out in order to prevent a greater evil, he has to step up to the throne and ends up betraying and killing or changing his friends into horrible creatures. Knowing his own mortality he ends up turning to Lichdom in order to keep the growing threat at bay, and possibly use the time to find a way out.

Eggs on the PCs as much as he can, and do things to motivate them to grow strong enough to aid him in his plight. When they finally will get to kill him, they'll probably realize everything that falls into place. They'll get that feeling of smugness, at least for a short while.

>> No.23334706

>>23334477
>>23334524
I have no idea what these are from.

and I feel bad about it.

>> No.23334719

>>23334706
Out.

>> No.23334727

One time I made the BBEG an NPC the party had been interacting with since level 1. The look on their faces when it was revealed it was him was so fucking priceless.

>> No.23334738

I keep trying to make BBEG with logical morals and compelling backstory
...only to fall in love with it before the players even bother, since it eventually ended up as TL;DR

In the end I settled with something simpler, such as competing adventurer groups, or large monsters with primitive instinct.

>> No.23334741

>>23331451

5/10 got me to reach for the keyboard.

>> No.23334746

>>23334706
Nier and Drakengard respectively. TheDarkId did LP's of them if you don't want to actually play them. Technically the second one is from Drakengard 2.

>> No.23334785

NieR will probably make you cry in a corner.
Also /tg/ has a collective boner for its music, and you should too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1CjxQXXA7o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFmlU3vByfY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gilH6f2hHk

>> No.23334790

>>23334785
>/tg/ has a boner for a typical "so emotional" JRPG with a big tittied bimbo fighting in literal lingerie

Why does this not surprise me?

>> No.23334816

>>23334790

What exactly is "typical" or "JRPG" about Nier?

>> No.23335036

>>23331501
> Pure evil people aren't interesting or fun antagonists.

Ever heard of the Joker?

>> No.23335075

>>23331798

Fuck. Yes.

>> No.23335084

>>23332267

>> No.23335153

I know people talk a lot about morality in these threads, but how about personality?

I made a BBEG based on this smarmy motherfucker and my group grew to like him so much that instead of killing him they just bound him into a magical orb so they could always hear his quips regarding a situation. The drawback being sometimes he'd try to get the group in trouble by making a lot of noise or by nearly tricking others into thinking he's some benevolent creature trapped by these ne'er-do-wells.

>> No.23335174

>Talented leader
>You agree with his views and methods
>Does everything for the sake of his country
>Everyone celebrates him as a hero
>Treats his underlings with respect, won't look down even on the lowest of them
>Bitches want his cock

Sadly you're born in the country next to his and about to be conquered, he's pretty much the Reinhard of vidya

>> No.23335227

>>23335153

I agree, having an interesting personality IS more important than being a walking complex moral issue. Actually, I think the latter is better for second-tier antagonists, redeemable minions and so on. But the Big Bad is better if he's evil, but fun.

>> No.23335242

>>23335036

Yeah, he's not interesting because of his goals. He's funny because he's a chucklefuck. Other than that "I'm gonna kill people because ha ha everybody's evil like me" is a retarded plan.

>> No.23335266

>>23335242

This sort of villain is arguably good for playing on personal issues if the campaign is driven by those. I agree that he wouldn't really make for a good villain in a campaign with a more "epic" plot.

>> No.23335288

>>23335266

Well, if you're playing something pretending to be lighthearted with a dark core, or the reverse, Batman's a good example. Just use Arnold Schwarzenegger as Mr.Freeze and you'll do well.

>> No.23335780

I had my PC transcend into godhood at the end of the game. Next game my char was the BBEG
(my char was the cleric of two gods, the god of time and the god of fire.)

He was evil, but deceptive. Made people think he was good, left half of the "middleplains" as the GM called them in chaos. He destroyed 3 towns, made two immortal children, and made a deal with death to release him, in the twist that if he dies again he'd have to serve death for all eternity.

So in the next game when he was the BBEG, our party got stuck for a while in a divine plain as the GM explained, and when we got out we found out time went much faster there. As in when we got out, 16 years passed. His children had grown, not knowing their father but imbued with great power, one of the children sought to ease suffering while the other followed his father's footsteps and almost destroyed the city, but was stopped by our party.

At the moment when we killed the little shit, my old char showed up fuck out of nowhere and he was mad as hell about us killing his son

So in the end we completed our quest and destroyed the evil god.

When this game started, he wasn't god yet. He was just a priest of much power, and we were sent by a wizard's court to deal with him with a big reward as compensation.

>> No.23335892

The realisation that theirs was a long term peace. eg that story of the necromancer and the undead labourers

>> No.23335920

>>23332015
>>23332326
These.

>> No.23335951

>>23335084
Hysterical women are valuable to the well-being of a nation. Don't look down on them.

>> No.23335965

>>23335951
Calm down. I was just pulling your leg

>> No.23335995

>>23331466
>a blackguard who, while quite a skilled fighter, prefers to handle things politically,
totally not a Sarevok ripoff

>> No.23336297

>>23334477
ouch

stop it anon

you just hit me

right in the feels;~;

The Shadowlord was another one that gets you, especially when you realize that he was actually the savior of mankind and trying to save humanity in order to help his dying daughter, and the dude endured over 1300 years of hell in trying to achieve it while the rest of humanity's souls that he was trying to guide to safety were slowly being wiped out by defective insane soulless clones. AKA, you, the player.

>> No.23337509

>>23332381

I know what you mean. I'd like to put it down to the fact that most 2D villains made are rubbish compared to an equal amount of 'personal justice' villains, but considering you can have equally top-tier shitheads on both sides...it's quite peculiar to see everyone leaning all one way on this.

>> No.23337585

Make 'em like this guy.

>> No.23337601

>>23335951
>Hysterical women are valuable to the well-being of a nation.
How?

>> No.23337612

>>23335036

This guy.

Relatable antagonists are good and all, but there are genuinely bad people. Sometimes their motivation isn't something genuinely good. There are antagonists driven by power, greed, or the simple desire to hurt other people.

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