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[ERROR] No.22952882 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

I have a question for you, fa/tg/uys.

What makes an MtG mill deck work? From what I've learned here and experience, it's better to get rid of an opponent's hand than just taking the deck away. Sure it's good to make them lose the library but what if they have something in their hand to ruin you?

I put it into an example with guns that made a bit of sense to me. It's like walking up to a person with a gun, not knowing if a bullet is in the chamber, and you take off their magazine. You don't really know if you're fucked or not from that move.

So basic newfag question of someone trying to build a black/blue control deck: what makes milling so great? (for any card suggestions, I play the Legacy format)

>i want to see if i can properly use this Jace in my deck

>> No.22952900

Simply put, nothing does. despite several cards to do that, mill decks work only if you use some combo, or in a non-competitive ambient.

>> No.22952906

As an old mtg player I found Milling is most effective when you're hitting cards that are in limited supply. By removing a card that player needs/wants, you're effectively limited their attack options. Cards like brain hemorrhage and that new black one that mills until a land are perfect examples; you're removing lands, so in a multi-colour (which everyone is running these days), if you hit four of the same land type, you've more or less removed half , if not mote, of the possible lands of that colour.

>> No.22952915

>>22952882
Mill only works if you can mill their entire deck. Any mill short of that gives you a negligible advantage.
If you're milling, it's to kill them.

>> No.22952916

>>22952900
This. Milling is never good. Black/blue control should be majoring more on discard and life loss, while you gain cards for yourself.

>> No.22952932

>>22952882
>What makes an MtG mill deck work?
Bad opponents.

>> No.22952941

>>22952916
That's what my deck does. I just need more life loss type cards. Stuff like Megrim. What are some recommendations?

And cards like Paranoid Delusions wouldn't be a good idea in my kind of deck?

>> No.22952943

>>22952906
But what you're saying is completely wrong unless the player being milled is playing tutors. Milling a deck that doesn't play any sort of tutor does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The cards being milled might as well have been sitting on the bottom of the deck and the player wouldn't have seen them anyway. In fact, with how common flashback/reanimator effects are, milling more often helps the opponent than hurts him. It's easier to use cards in the graveyard than use cards tucked in a library.

People who believe that milling hurts the opponents choices or whatever blatantly suck at magic.

>> No.22952950

>>22952941
Why would you include that card in your deck? How does it help you win?

>> No.22952961

Oh boy, milling. I was crazy about it years ago and made a deck. Unfortunately for me, Oath of Druids was all the craze in my meta. Goddamn you, gaea's blessing.

>> No.22952964

Mill is only really a good option in Control mirrors, and even then it's only when you have permanents that can mill repeatedly and are hard for your opponent to interact with, Jace Memory Adept is a good example of this, as is Nephalia Drownyward. If you manage to get one of these into play you force your opponent to act to get rid of it, that puts you in command because you can just sit back and mill them each turn and counter (hopefully) whatever they try to do.

Ignore what >>22952906 says, the main problem with mill is that it is so unpredictable, it can mill away all their lands/good cards, but just as equally it can mill away a bunch of cards they didn't want and draw them into a card they did.

>> No.22952968

>>22952941
Mental Vapors and Shadow Slice are pretty much objevtively better than that card if you're going for cipher cards.

>> No.22952970

>>22952941
Not unless you plan to win con by milling. Otherwise, do not include it.

>> No.22952971

Everyone please stop saying mill is bad. Mill is the most consistent way to beat your opponent in standard right now. Through controlling elements such as counters and board wipes and reaction spells such as flash creatures and unsummons it's incredibly effective to stick a Jace for 4 turns or to outlast them with drownyards.

>> No.22952989

>>22952971
Then why hasn't non-combo mill won a single tournament ever?

Because it sucks.

>> No.22952994

>>22952968
Those two really confused me. I didn't like the idea of paying 4 mana to discard one card, or 5 mana to make them lose 3 life. I'm pretty sure I'm missing something though.

>> No.22953004

>>22952989

http://sales.starcitygames.com/decatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=29&art_date=2013-01-20&end_date=20131-20&state=VA&city=Norfolk&order_finish&limit=8&action=Show+Decks

5 decks in top 8 including winner. And that was like a week ago.

>> No.22953016

>>22952994
They have Cipher. You're supposed to cast them and then cipher them on creatures that your opponent can't or won't block, with the hopes of hitting him at least once.

So 6+ life or discard 2+ cards.

They're not very good, but they're infinitely better than milling because they actively hurt the opponent/further your game plan.

>> No.22953027

If you ask me, Mill can work in standard again with the release of Gatecrash. What you need to do is not divide your efforts between a mill win and draining their life UNLESS you're using mill to pump up critters like Wight of Precinct Six, Consuming Aberration, Jace's Phantasm. What I would do is make a standard deck with lots of the cards mentioned above, the U and B primordials, and lots of good defense like Fog Bank. Buy yourself time to build up their graveyard, then take advantage of it.

Oh and also check out Undead Alchemist. A BU zombies/mill win is super-feasible.

>> No.22953047

>>22953004
Winner has 2 drownyards and 1 M13 Jace in the sideboard. That deck wins through Lingering Souls long before it wins through milling.

>> No.22953067

>>22952941
Either you win by life loss, or you win by milling. You do NOT want your deck to be trying to do both. Making them lose life when you're trying to win by milling is a complete waste of resources because being on 18 life instead of 20 doesn't affect them in any way. Milling cards when you're trying to win by life loss is a complete waste of resources because their deck being slightly smaller doesn't affect them at all and actually helps them if they have stuff that interacts with the graveyard. If you try win in two completely different ways at once you'll do them both badly.

>> No.22953091

>>22953067
So based on all this, just keep my deck the way it is? Destroying creatures, ruining their hands and taking control of their graveyards? Jace's Phantasm and Wight of Precinct Six seem tempting now.

>> No.22953093

>>22952943
>People who believe that milling hurts the opponents choices or whatever blatantly suck at magic.

They don't just suck at magic. I would say they suck at math/logic.

Last Friday, one of the rounds was held up (went to turns) by a Jace's Phantasm/mill deck and this teenage kid watching kept remarking about everything hitting the graveyard ("oh man... he got rid of your X... that sucks"). It made me cringe.

>> No.22953105

>>22952971
>Everyone please stop saying mill is bad. Mill is the most consistent way to beat your opponent in standard right now.
Then why isn't it winning?

>> No.22953111

>>22953047

This is the absolute dumbest thing I've ever heard in my entire life. I now know you obviously don't play competitive magic and would ask that you no longer post in this thread or give advice to anyone ever again for fear that you will stunt their progress as a person. Holy fuck, I knew /tg/ was bad at magic but I'm pretty sure that post gave me a mild stroke.

>> No.22953116

All it takes is one card, and that card is Duskmantle Guildmage.

>> No.22953120

>>22953105

http://sales.starcitygames.com/decatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=29&art_date=2013-01-20&end_date=20131-20&state=IL&city=Lindenhurst&orr_1=finish&limit=8&action=Show+Des

http://sales.starcitygames.com/decatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=29&art_date=2013-01-20&end_date=20131-20&state=VA&city=Norfolk&order_finish&limit=8&action=Show+Decks

It is.

>> No.22953122

Pacing is important, and securing a strong control either by keeping their things tapped or using metric shit loads of counter spells.
Good mill decks, usually aren't strictly mill.

>> No.22953123

Not OP but I'm curious in this sense, too. How well would a Stormtide Leviathan work in a black/blue removal deck like this?

>> No.22953136

>>22953116
I was considering that but its abilities just don't make it worthwhile IMO. Or again, I may be missing something here.

>> No.22953173

>>22953093
That's not true.

If a player draws one cards per turn, and let's say pessimistically you're milling 2 cards per turn. There's then twice the chance that an opponent good cards are put into the graveyard than their hand. The premise for everyone's argument seems to be that they'll have more options as the graveyards is easier to play from than the library. While that's true, you also have to consider that if they Flashback a card, they're now only getting to use it once as opposed to once from the hand then once from the graveyard. Also if they have to return a card from the graveyard, they're using a whole extra card and extra mana to recover it.

So yes, you do improve your opponent's chances of having a game-winning card revealed to them, but you have to bear in mind that cards that are milled are more unwieldy to play and that you might mill out their cards that allow them to recover cards from the graveyard. Oh and of course that the opponent isn't the only one who can play from their graveyard.

>> No.22953187

>>22953136
1UB: Whenever a card is put into an opponent's graveyard from ANYWHERE this turn, that player loses 1 life.

So if you, say for example, +0 memory adept after activating, well then, they just lost 10 life. Or how about if you do it twice. With the six mana you probably have. There are exactly 0 cards in standard that counter activated abilities. So you basically win at that point. This also works if you activate it and force them to draw a bunch of cards. Well say they have to discard 4 cards. That means that they just lost 4 life. You can do this on their turn to fuck with their card draw plans.

>> No.22953190

>>22952882
The Types of Mill Decks:
1) Timmy 'it gets rid of some of your good shit' mill decks. Bad. They win through other cards. See >>22953093.

2) Self-Mill. Only really works with Reanimators or some of the Innistrad Green. Can be very effective, but not my play-style. Also probably not what you meant.

3) Aggro-Mill. Similar to aggro-burn, it tries to get rid of its opponent's deck as fast as possible. Generally worse than other types of aggro because you're trying to get to 60 instead of 20.

4) Control-Mill. My personal Favorite, on par with Self-Mill in power-level. Simply tries to control the game, using mill to win rather than damage. Note that the mill is less important than the control.

>> No.22953191

>>22953123
>How well would a Stormtide Leviathan work in a black/blue removal deck like this?

It would almost never see play because it costs 8 mana.

Now if you reanimated it by splashing white for unburial Rites, then it would be a good way to keep your opponent from attacking, and you'd have an 8/8 unblockable fish.

>> No.22953205

>>22953136
Just missing illusionist's bracers imo. Equipt to guildmage, use second ability, mind sculpt, -14 life.

>> No.22953211

>>22952971
There are so many decks that benefit from being milled with all of the flashback cards in standard right now.

Plus, with mill your opponent has 53 "life" to start out with (assuming no mulligans). Furthermore, unlike burn which can deal with creatures, you can't do shit against creatures.

>> No.22953221

>>22953173
>There's then twice the chance that an opponent good cards are put into the graveyard than their hand.
wat?

For argument's sake, let's say I'm running RDW with all 4 ofs and no flashback cards. You have just as much chance of milling 2 cards I don't need as you do 2 cards I do need. The milling would have a negligible effect on my board state.

>> No.22953228

>>22953211
But you're in Blue/Black/x, some of the greatest reanimation colors ever.

>> No.22953237

>>22953173

Chances a good card goes into graveyard are doubled. Chances a *bad* card go into the graveyard are also doubled. It evens out.

Let's put this another way. I play you in a game of Magic. You beat me by getting my life to 0. We both have a certain number of cards left in our decks that were never played.

Nobody can complain "I had more cards in my deck than I drew, so there's more probability of my good cards being left in my deck". You don't find pros saying "I could have won if only I had drawn every card in my deck". It's accepted that in every game of Magic, there are cards that never see play.

So when you put a card into the graveyard, it's exactly the same as any game; there are cards that aren't seeing play. Except it's *not* the same; your opponent can see which of his cards are gone and are in his hand, and he knows his own deck better than you do. Also, some of his cards may have Flashback, so you're actually increasing his options.

Not only does putting cards other than the last card in the GY not statistically worsen your opponent's game at all, it can actually improve their strategies against you.

>> No.22953244

>>22953173
>There's then twice the chance that an opponent good cards are put into the graveyard than their hand
And twice the chance their excess lands are put into their graveyard than their hand. You're just making their deck smaller, you're not affecting it's average quality in any way.

>> No.22953273

I was thinking about making the most asshole deck possible for Modern on Cockatrice. Tons of counter, Kozilek, removal, the whole deal. It should probably be Grixis

>> No.22953283

>>22953173
>There's then twice the chance that an opponent good cards are put into the graveyard than their hand.

This is where your logic falters, for two reasons:

1. because this isn't what this is about at all. It doesn't matter if his good cards are put into the graveyard because until they were revealed, he didn't know what that card was anyway. Those good cards might as well have been on the bottom of the library. It doesn't change anything, just like going from 20 life to 19 doesn't change anything.

2. What cards are "good" are so context dependent that it's ludicrous. And if anyone plays a deck that has bad cards in all contexts, they lost before they got milled.

Milling doesn't do anything on its own and is pretty much always slower than damage/life loss as a wincon. Milling sucks.

>> No.22953290

>>22953273

Make sure some of the removal is a sacrifice effect, too.

Always hilarious.

>> No.22953316

>>22953228
Yeah exactly. I run an Angel of Glory's Rise deck. Yesterday some guy milled it and was like "lel u lost ur best creature". Wasn't so funny when I used Unburial Rites.

>> No.22953321

>>22953290
Any suggestions? Discard is pretty much always frustrating, and ideally I'd be able to build up to a Cruel Ultimatum

>> No.22953325

Rolled 3, 4 = 7

hi

>> No.22953334

>>22953316

>> No.22953366

>I'm defending mill
>I hate mill

>>22953237
Most of that argument is sound, but consider that any mill deck worth its salt should be milling a lot more than 2 each turn. If several cards go into the graveyard each turn and one into their hand, where is a good card more likely to go?

If a player has already committed to a mill deck, then presumably they've already decided that flashback/recovering cards is a risk worth keeping a lot of the opponent's cards out of their hand. I personally would make that decision based on the deck I was facing, but it's all about playing the game and trying to win it in the way you choose.

Lastly, I feel like everyone's ignoring the fact that in a BU or even possibly a U deck, you can play from the opponent's graveyard almost as easily as they can.

>> No.22953375

Is Mind Sculpt a decent card to use in a deck like mine? It seems way too good to pass up getting rid of seven cards for 2 mana. Plus it's won me a few games.

>> No.22953395

>>22953375
Yes. Also see Tome Scour

>> No.22953398

>>22953321

I personally don't play such a deck, so I can only tell you what pisses me off.

I'm playing an Auras deck that drops Hexproof creatures then enchants them to fuck up all opposition. We're talking 6/6 unblockable, untargetable, have-to-be-hit-with-sweepers-twiceo-finally-die creatures very quickly indeed.

So there's nothing more enraging than having one such creature on the field and having to sacrifice a creature. Except perhaps having my Ethereal Armor plucked from my hand so that the creature itself is about a 2/2 when it hits. While I do have access to a little card draw, it needs a particular non-Hexproof creature out in order to manage it, and so I can't really fight spells that do damage according to how few cards I have in my hand. There are plenty of enchants that hurt someone while they have, say, 3 or less cards in hand; stacking those really kills me, since I have to pretty much dump my hand anyway to win quickly.

>> No.22953417

>>22953366
EVERY CARD IN THEIR DECK is more likely to be in the graveyard than their hand. You can't magically mill all the "good cards", leaving only lands in their deck.

>> No.22953428

This is the Modern mill deck I;ve been usign for a while now. It works pretty well.

>> No.22953432

>>22953366
>any mill deck worth its salt should be milling a lot more than 2 each turn. If several cards go into the graveyard each turn and one into their hand, where is a good card more likely to go?
That makes no difference at all, did you even read his argument?

>If a player has already committed to a mill deck, then presumably they've already decided that flashback/recovering cards is a risk worth keeping a lot of the opponent's cards out of their hand.
That's their decision. Most people would agree that they're wrong.

>> No.22953439

>>22953428
...maybe I should post the decklist as well.

4 Hedron Crab
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Mind Funeral
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Archive Trap
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Watery Grave
4 Island
1 Swamp
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tome Scour
2 Extirpate
4 Dream Twist
4 Thought Scour

>> No.22953492

>>22953366

It's not about the number of cards you mill per turn. That doesn't have anything to do with reducing effectiveness of a deck. If you increase those two cards to ten, then the chances of a good card hitting the GY in a turn are multiplied by 5, and the chances of a bad card doing the same thing are also multiplied by 5.

Not to mention that, in every game of Magic, there are cards in your deck that you will never have access to. It doesn't matter if they're on the bottom of your deck somewhere or go straight to your GY, you never get to use them. Moving those dead cards from library to GY doesn't make your opponent's situation worse in the slightest.

I'll put it a third way; does it make any difference to mill cards off the top of an opponent's deck or the bottom, assuming the deck is not stacked? The answer is, of course, no. Similarly, it doesn't matter if you remove cards from the top of the opponent's deck (by milling) or the bottom (by killing him before he can draw any more cards). The only difference between the two tactics is that killing him directly also leaves you leeway to fuck up his plans.

>> No.22953544

>>22953492
You're completely right, but I do want to add that cards like Extirpate and Surgical Extraction can make non-lethal milling very scary. See the deck I posted:
>>22953439

It has often happened that I could Tome Scour turn 1, then Extract a very important card from their deck immediately after. Ripping out Birthing Pod from a Pod deck, or Tarmogoyf from Jund, or Sylvan Scrying from an Urzatron before they even have a turn can be very effective.

>> No.22953617

I don't see any other Magic thread so I have a quick rules question. If I cast a 1/1 creature while Curse of Death's Hold (all my creatures get -1/-1) is on me, does my creature still enter the battlefield and trigger ETB effects and THEN dies or is that skipped because it dies instantly?

>> No.22953629

>>22953617
enters the battlefield, then dies. So ETB effects get triggered

>> No.22953650

>>22952882
I used him in a full mill deck. Used defensive creatures with Jace's Erasure then filled any spots with instant draws and cancels. Only had trouble with red decks that could damage more often than I can cancel/mana leak (fucking lightning bolt).

>> No.22953666

>>22953617
It enters the battlefield so things that trigger whenever something enters the battlefield will trigger. It doesn't matter how long it's on the battlefield for.

>> No.22953917

>>22952943
But they weren't on the bottom of the deck. They happened to be on the top. This argument works well for generalized hypothetical, but if I mill you for four and just happen to hit your last Gesit of St. Traft then yeah, if it was on the bottom of your library who cares, but if I hadn't milled you then you'd have drawn it and killed me with it.

>> No.22954086

>>22953917
>if I hadn't milled you then you'd have drawn it
This only matters if Geist is there because of library manipulation.

Basically, what you're saying is that if Wizard printed a spell that said "Target player reveals the top X cards of his or her library and then puts those cards on the bottom of his or her library." that spell would matter.

It doesn't. It'd be worthless shitty spell that didn't do anything. The same is true here.

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