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[ERROR] No.22696996 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

What's wrong with Daemons in 40k? Lots of people bitching that they are one of the most random, weak, and not fun to play against armies and that after the WD update they are the same except for a build or two that don't blow.

So what's the problem with the army and how would it get fixed? They're supposed to get a new codex soon.

>> No.22697038

Wait a month or two and we'll have a new Daemon list.

>> No.22697045

More cybernetics.

>> No.22697102

The problem:
They deepstrike EVERYTHING. Scattering will kill your massive units. Being unable to assault after deepstriking will get your regular units killed. There is no real way to get anything anywhere without it getting horribly murdered.

Solution:
Decrease spread on deepstriking (6" max?) and/or allow assault after deepstrike.
Really, they just need to be a bit more reliable.

>> No.22697114

>>22696996
Fix the troops. Every single one of them is a different flavor of bad.

Fix Daemonic Assault. When you can tell from turn 1 that you have lost the match because of a deployment method that removes all control from your hands? That's horrific game design.

Fix everything else too actually. Most units are shit.

Considering the more recent books though, I imagine that Daemons will be pretty interesting. I'd love for them to have multiple deployment options, such as coming out from portals.

As for why they are not fun? Invulnerable saves and Eternal Warrior on every single model means that your opponent's units lose a lot of their flavor and their only option is to bruteforce your army into oblivion.

>> No.22697129

>>22697102
>Being unable to assault after deepstriking will get your regular units injured, then fail LD and *poof* away.

>> No.22697178

>>22697102
On top of this, the points values are absurd.
Daemons cost far too much
Daemonettes are 14 points for a guardsman with an invulnerable flak jacket, a rending melee weapon, fleet, 2 more attacks, higher initiative, and 10 leadership.
It seems like thats a lot of bonus, but a T3 W1 Sv5++ model is going to go down to a bolter in a split second.

>> No.22697184

>>22697129

They're fearless and don't do that.

>> No.22697193

I love all the bitching in this thread despite the fact that DoC have one of the top tier builds available right now.

>> No.22697217

fuckin deepstrike, half your army gets shot to pieces for a turn, at rapid fire range.

>> No.22697219

>>22697184
Oh yeah, I forgot to add fearless to >>22697114
It's an army that ignores a ton of shit and that's not fun.

>>22697193
Is it fun to play with only Flamers and Screamers? Fuck you.

>> No.22697236

>>22697193
It's very monobuild though.
Most codexes can fuck around with numerous lists and still be fun and/or efficient.
Daemons don't really have that.
Plaguebearers dominate the entire troops section, Screamers and Flying Monstrous creatures make up the rest of the bulk.

>> No.22697256

>>22697193

Lolwhut?

>> No.22697286

>>22697256

Flamers, Screamers, Pink Horrors, Pbears, Slaaneshi Flying DPs

Its monobuild as fuck but also very fucking good.

>> No.22697330

>>22697286

Hmm hmm?

any lists around?

>> No.22697339

>>22697236

>>Most Ward codexes can fuck around with numerous lists

Only Ward writes books with multiple good options. Maybe Vetock, but that's yet to be seen.

>> No.22697370

>>22697330

HQ1: Herald of Tzeentch

Troops:

Troops1: Horrors x9, Changeling
Troops2: Horrors x8
Troops3: Plaguebearers x7
Troops4: Plaguebearers x5

Elites:

Elite1: Flamers x9
Elite2: Flamers x9
Elite3: Flamers x9

Fast Attack:

F.Attack1: Screamers x9
F.Attack2: Screamers x9
F.Attack3: Screamers x9

Fortification:

Aegis Defense Line, Comms Relay

This is the list that won Feast of Blades.

>> No.22697377

>>22697339
Kelly can write some fairly solid, versatile codexes.
The new CSM is a testament to that.

>> No.22697396

>>22697370
>Those Elites and Fast attacks
Seriously, no vehicle, heavy infantry, or even regular infantry unit could stand up to that shit.

That said, weren't PBears, Flamers, and Screamers all recently updated in WD? They weren't as good before then.

>> No.22697399

>>22697377

I disagree entirely - the new CSM book has a pretty hard split of super useful and super awful unit.

Its not a bad book but it doesn't have a ton of versatile lists at all.

>> No.22697404

How are they as allies for your Chaos Marine army? Is it worth it, or are you better off with just more Space Marines?

>> No.22697411

>>22697396
That's why you need to get creative and start making him kill himself. I've played against this list before, but expect the guy who originally made it was a hell of a lot better than the local stock.

>> No.22697412

>>22697396

Pbears were not - flamers and screamers were. Screamers got a SHIT ton better where screamers were improved (not to the same degree).

Also - if you are interested here's the second place list FOB.

Headquarters:

HQ1: Fateweaver
HQ2: The Masque

Troops:

Troops1: Plaguebearers x7
Troops2: Plaguebearers x7
Troops3: Plaguebearers x7
Troops4: Plaguebearers x7

Elites:

Elite1: Flamers x9
Elite2: Flamers x9
Elite3: Flamers x9

Fast Attack:

F.Attack1: Screamers x6
F.Attack2: Screamers x6
F.Attack3: Screamers x6

Fortification:

Aegis Defense Line, Comms Relay

>> No.22697421

>>22697412

Sorry that should read

>>Screamers got a SHIT ton better where flamers were improved (not to the same degree).

>> No.22697453

>>22697412
>>22697370

A shame, really, because Daemons have a lot of really cool models.

>> No.22697463

>>22697411

How exactly do you make them kill themselves?

>> No.22697473

>>22697399
I don't think it's as bad as you're making out but it's definitely leaps and bounds ahead of Daemons regardless.
Its faults aren't as catastrophic, its point values are better, and there aren't too many completely worthless models.
It's also very fun and has a lot of painting/modeling options.

>> No.22697495

>>22697473

Again I like the book (I bought a CSM army when it came out) I just think I'd be hard pressed to say it has "lots" of variety. I'd say about a quarter of the book is good on a competitive level. That said I feel like that quarter really stands up.

>> No.22697533

>>22697404

Demons provide a solid allied detachment for our army. The main thing to look at is "what does my CSM list do and what does it need help doing". There is normally an answer in the demons book.

>> No.22697535

>>22697473
Most people who dislike the new CSM dex are people who played during 3.5, and are pissed that it's not 3.5.

>> No.22697580

>>22697535

>>Most people who like the new CSM dex are people who playing during 5th, and are happy that its not 5th.

>> No.22697636

>>22697535

Why wouldn't they be?

Several fluffy units have been removed for no reason at all.

>> No.22697669

>>22697636

For me its not even that - its that Phil copy and pasted some of the option from the previous book or gave them slightly shitty tweaks.

I'm a fairly "competitive" player (I regularly attend tournaments and the like) and I just wish more units in the book were viable (cough Warp Talons cough).

>> No.22697688

>>22697669

Yeah, it doesn't feel like a new, fullprice codex.

More like an expansion or patch.

>> No.22697773

>>22697669
>Warp Talons
Is it just me or are those models actually a step down from the old Raptors? I dunno, but the jump packs on the new models just don't look as good to me.

>> No.22697789

>>22697773

I like the Raptor models (new ones) but I hate the Warp Talons. Their helmets are awful and their posing is really meh for me.

>> No.22697920

>>22697773
I agree. The new kit is nice enough on its own, and certainly far more aesthetically pleasing than the very first Raptors, but they look too much like eeevul Assault Marines; more so than either of the previous iterations. Ironic, considering the WD designers' notes.

>"Up until this point the Chaos Space Marines were a little restrained; they were evil Space Marines with spikes on their heads. We wanted them to be so much more than that; more twisted, more sinister, creepier and more powerful."

>> No.22698125

>>22697473
>very fun and has a lot of painting/modeling options

Isn't that doublespeak for: "Best army's impossible, might as well focus on best painted"

>> No.22698157

>>22698125

Confirmed as non tourneyfag.

Best army usually is best painted.

Best General is what you were looking for.

>> No.22698194

>>22697920
Also, I just noticed this:

>This led us to question where these Daemon Engines came from. The Defilers, which first appeared over ten years ago, were explained as an amalgamation of Daemon and war machine, but we never really delved into their creation in previous versions of the Codex.

Technically this is true. The Defiler's creation was never really elaborated upon in the CSM codex itself. But there was an article in WD282 going into more detail on its history. Remember, Phil? It was written by Graham McNeill? Had obligatory Ultramarine (4th Company of course) torture porn?

>> No.22698195

>>22697920
Do they still sell the old Raptors?

>> No.22698205

>>22698157
yea that, usually work in danish terms so couldn't remember the name.

>> No.22698219

>>22698194
>Implying seeing the Smurfs get a kicking is ever a bad thing

Details?

>> No.22698241

>>22698219

>The Space Marine was stripped of his armor, and his muscular frame was stretched across the back of the Defiler. His flesh had been carved with ancient symbols of summoning. Only the tattoo of the Ultramarines Fourth Company remained visible on his flesh. Zaraphiston, sorcerer to the Despoiler, brought down the sacrificial knife and stabbed the point through the Space Marine’s chest. Blood welled from the cut, clotting within seconds, but the Ultramarine did not cry out. His tongue had been removed hours ago. Now the final violation of his flesh would summon forth a creature of the Warp to inhabit the empty shell of the Defiler.

>The sorcerer sawed through the black carapace and ossified bone plate that protected the Space Marine’s internal organs, cracked open his chest cavity, and watched the beating of his victim’s hearts slow as death neared. He jabbed the point into the primary heart and punctured both lungs as he decided what to take. It would take the choicest organs to summon a truly monstrous beast from the depths of the Immaterium.

>Zaraphiston leaned close to the Space Marine’s ear and whispered, “Fear not. You shall live again, brother. Your death shall herald the dark birth of a creature older than time. You should drop to your knees and give praise for this honor I give you.”

>The Space Marine’s eyes were full of mute horror as Zaraphiston slid the knife’s bloody point within his chest and lifted a thick membrane to uncover his Progenoid gland.

>“Yes,” hissed Zaraphiston, “This will do nicely...”

>> No.22698242

>>22698195
two seperate units

>> No.22698267

>>22698241
Meh. Those wacky Black Legionaires. Thanks.

>> No.22698278

>>22698242
I mean the finecast/metal 4e

>> No.22700123 [DELETED] 

Kanak Skull Takers?

How do I do?

>> No.22700720

Daemons got a WD update? Is there a scan?

>> No.22700793

>>22700720
Not an update, more like a tiny change. Three(?) of their units got buffs/nerfs.

>> No.22700925

>>22696996

I fucking love the Cyberdemon asthetics on that big dude. I don't even care if he or his army sucks balls.

Since I'm about to get back into warhams for the first time in a decade, I'm thinking of running Ork Rokkers with 'eavy metal cyberdemon allies

>> No.22701139

hey so how did the feast of blades lists deal with valk and necron air spam? I never understood that. Also I thought the feast of blades had a rule that let the screamers and flamers cap objectives, hence why they dominated so well.

Now that FNP is nerfed, cover is nerfed, and fearless guys go to ground I don't think plaguebearers are unkillable objective cappers anymore, so im interested in how these builds work in a different setting

>> No.22701511

>>22700925
They're desperate allies, man, but go for it I guess. Just be sure it's really fluffy.

>>
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