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22450401 No.22450401 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

>> No.22450435

Bumpin' in the trunk.

>> No.22450460
File: 135 KB, 873x627, itscooliswear.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I'm more concerned by pic related.

>> No.22450472

Anything flies with big enough engine.

Check those flying lawn mowers from jewtube.

>> No.22450545

But those are model planes. They may look like lawnmowers but they've actually been designed to be aerodynamic.
Unlike these hovering lumps of cathedral.

>> No.22450559

Did Raven Guard stole from the Black Templars?

>> No.22450566

The Lords of Terra looked for a way to repurpose their surplus of Terraforming-grade lawnmowers,

>> No.22450570
File: 471 KB, 960x884, partywagon.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.22450589
File: 136 KB, 602x800, sovietgroundattack.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>infantry standard weapons on a plane

100% realistic.

>> No.22450591
File: 130 KB, 873x627, DarkShroud01_873x627.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


And not the Speeder that has a giant ROCK SAIL on it?

Seriously, that thing'd fly off pretty quickly, or have enough drag to fuck things up.

>> No.22450601

My theory is they've had their tech-marines running experiments on Sammael's pimp bike and have slapped a shit ton of knockoff anti-grav plates onto their new vehicles.

That's how the plane flies. The wings are just to fool others.

>> No.22450602

It's so cool looking I want one.

>> No.22450607

>impractically shaped barrel for a gun that opens rifts into the warp

Yeah, because practicality is the issue there.

>> No.22450611

>anti-gravity field over the rock shit
It's space magic, they don't have to explain shit

>> No.22450627

Gravity doesn't do shit against air drag, man. It's anti-gravity, not anti-every type of force ever.

>> No.22450642

Space Magic!

>> No.22450648

I kinda like the assaultcannon turret... the plasma cannons are good awful though and the general aeastethic is way random...

>> No.22450668

It has 4 engines you pleb FOUR

>> No.22450678


Seeing as the Dark Talon lacks the VTOL engines of the Stormtalon I think the wings are just to house additional anti-grav plates.

This would grant the Dark Talon superior speed while sacrificing maneuverability and VTOL ability.

>> No.22450681

Rolled 6

yeah well it looks awesome though

>> No.22450682




>> No.22450692

It would still be terrible if it had forty engines.

>> No.22450703

B-but that as much as four tens. And that's terrible.

>> No.22450709

It's funny because it's still one of the more practical vehicles in the Imperium.

>> No.22450710

B-but that's as much as four tens. And that's terrible.

>> No.22450717

As I said.

>> No.22450731


Its still a horrible design and if its mentioned as being even remotely near the pinnacle of Imperial aerospace technology I'll bring it up every time you 40kids start a versus thread.

>> No.22450752

>Bitching about infantry weapons mounted on a plane.

WW2 fighters were usually equipped with the same machine guns that infantry used.

Everything else you pointed out is legit though.

>> No.22450760

>implying design changes their efficiency
Most tanks in 40k wouldn't be able to rive on anything other than perfectly flat ground without throwing a tread.

Applying logic to illogical things is stupid

>> No.22450768

wait... the guy in the back is manning what exactly?
Seriously, what the hell is he doing there, praying that this shit doesn't crash?

>> No.22450775

So edgy. Yes bring in realism, that'll really help your case

>> No.22450781

Doing shit. Space shit, with dials and stuff.

You wouldn't understand.

>> No.22450783


>> No.22450789

Probably the plasma cannon turrret?

>> No.22450797

Well there IS a shrine. It must do something.

>> No.22450801


Controlling the stasis field.

>> No.22450809

The one he's talking about has a... statue turret, instead.

>> No.22450827

Landspeeders use anti-grav, they don't have to explain shit.

It still looks fucking horrible though, these kits are only good as a collection of bitz for a centrepiece land raider. Is there a fucking skull hanging underneath that thing?

>> No.22450828

he's obviously controlling the beat

>> No.22450865
File: 134 KB, 873x627, m2860428a_99120101097_RavenwingKnights04_873x627.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>no one cares about OLD SCOOL BEAKIE HELM STYLE
Hell yes I'm going to bits order your head.

You will be the baddest of asses.

>> No.22450904

He's praying to the shrine so they don't crash! Obviously.

>> No.22450958

Don't listen to these faggots.

He's actually controlling the landspeeder and the assault cannon. What looks like a Space Marine pilot and gunner are actually two empty power suits put there to fool the enemy.

>> No.22450968

That's so alpha legion.

>> No.22450978
File: 261 KB, 150x107, 1331094303536.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Storm Raven
>Now this shit

Why? How can someone get paid actual money to create things that are so bogglingly stupid?

>> No.22450990

Because you all pay for it.

>> No.22450991


Because Games Workshop was created to sell bogglingly stupid

>> No.22451021

Has anyone else noticed all the different call backs they are doing to old RT marines with the new minis?>>22450865
not only in the linked post but also the master of signal and one of the pilots from the new dark angels land speeder variant, I for one am loving it.

>> No.22451144

>helmets on a plane

I agree, what's with all the modern fighter pilots fagging up the cockpit with their pussy ass helmets? Is babby afraid he'll have a boo-boo if he trashes around from impacts/sharp maneuvers? I'm sorry, miss, you need oxygen and protection in the case of a breach on an alien world with toxic or no atmosphere?

>infantry weapons on a flyer

19mm explosive rocket weapons. Also, maybe you should look at what sort of weapons they've used on fighters, because quite often it's been regular infantry weapons, maybe with a souped up rate of fire to compensate for accuracy and firing in 3D.

>stone carvings

Any source saying it actually is stone. And what the fuck you gonna do with aerodynamics, when you got anti-grav and all the thrust you can possibly need. When regular infantry have fusion reactors on their backs, I doubt flyers are strapped for juice.

>> No.22451186
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Imagine if they had used this with a minigun on the intake?

>> No.22451207

yeah, i think GW should only do most efficiant design, things the airforce would build if they had unlimited funds. That is exactly why i go to 40k. I would hate to find elements of cathedrals and other over-the-top sillyness in my milsim 40k

>> No.22451291
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Its like they don't have Space Marines flying around on armored dildos or something.

>> No.22451364

Looks like a bad kit bash

>> No.22451425


>And what the fuck you gonna do with aerodynamics, when you got anti-grav and all the thrust you can possibly need

Produce a different class of fighter thats not only cheaper, but significantly faster and more maneuverable because it doesn't have stupid shit like massive stone carvings ruining its aerodynamics or serving as dead weight.

>> No.22451529
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>> No.22451549
File: 172 KB, 1273x809, 1356165006322.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

it's true thou, infantry guns on a plane is goddamn retarded seeing how they have access to higher grade weapons, it's not a wonder that it's a WW2 pic from fucking RUSSIAN engineering which is pretty much the Ork version of war engineering ("needs moar dakka comrade") and that GW designers design figurines for play, not actual fighting planes. I know that 40k technology is pretty much a scrap from the golden age and that they've got the whole "medieval times" vibe going on, but still. Anyways, we're still just discussing the doability of a toy in a fantasy setting so wth.

>> No.22451622

wow these look faggoty.

>> No.22451623

whats next? Not putting cathedrals and hundreds of meters tall statues on our space ships?

>> No.22451634

obvious troll

>> No.22451727

How dare you suggest such a thing? Leave and never return.

>> No.22451755

that sounds like heresy talk to me

>> No.22451800

>why do youneed a helmet
Because pilots in reinforced cockpits today have no use for them either. Never mind the, 'just in case' 'hitting one's head on the inside from being shaken' or 'it's a useful place to put a HUD, eye following target systems, voice command and hooking up oxygen.

I understand your need to point out 'no fun allowed' issues with it. But in your rage you are making stuff up yourself.

>> No.22451804

The pic you're showing is of an Il-2 Sturmovic variant prototype that mounted PPSH submachine-guns. Utlimately, it never really went into production because a ground-attack aircraft wasn't particularly effective against a dug-in position for infantry. The Il-2 was kept with it's normal outfit of rockets, bombs, and cannons, which allowed it to ultimately do what it was really designed for... kill tank formations. And it did a great job of that, as well. While a PPSH-mounted Il-2 is interesting, it was also really impractical. However, 40k works off of 'rule-of-cool' for marine stuff, so mounting 12 small-arm rifles onto a plane is 'ZOMG GOOD, WILL SELL IN BUCKETs', partly because unarmored infantry is given no effective means of protecting itself.

>> No.22451811

>so cool looking
>Land Speeder Vengeance

You must pick only one.

>> No.22451818
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idk about that but am I the only guy that thinks that the gunner is kinda crammed in?

>> No.22451828

>>impractically shaped barrel for a gun that opens rifts into the warp

Seriously? They're giving D-Cannons to spess muhreens now, and mounting them on Aircraft? Wow, 40k really has gone off the deep end.

>> No.22451855

Fluffwise and ruleswise those wing bolters are supposed to be the same thing that's been in Land Raider Crusader's sponsons forever.

>> No.22451863

I for one, like the pulpit.


>> No.22451886

Those machine guns were just that... fucking heavy machine guns. Which during WW2, were usually wheeled into battle, and/or had to be mounted on a bipod setup before they could be fired to any effective degree. That DA plane does not have infantry machine,guns... it has the rough equivalent of mounting a bunch of slower-firing infantry small-arms. A much more convincing armament, would actually be some Heavy Bolters. But this is 40k, and it runs off "rule of derp", afterall.

>> No.22451887

oh I get it, this whole "judging 40k from a pratical and realistic point of view" is all an elaborate joke, isn't it? had me for a moment there

>> No.22451891
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>this thread
Be purged in the glory of the Emperor's beat.


>> No.22451894

Apparently not, but if he thinks it looks cool, more power to him.

>> No.22451909

so Hurricane Bolters?
Figured it might be something like that.

>> No.22451919


Yes, stormravens also have them, only in different arrangement.

>> No.22451966

Hurricane Bolter Sponsons were fucking stupid when they first came out, too. But the marine-fanboys just ate the idea up because it allowed them to field more terminators inside their land raiders. Basically, the Crusader amounted to a 'Land Raider +1' when it first came out, and it is still pretty much that (with the Redeemer being a Land Raider +1.5).

>> No.22451982

sort of off topic, but what would be the better of the two for my flesh tearers?

>> No.22452008

The Imperium of Man makes shit that's impractical and inefficient? My whole view of the entire setting has been shattered! Never did I think the IoM would ever make something impractical or inefficient!

>> No.22452045


The Crusader was what Land Raider fluffwise claimed to be but failed to deliver.

Only long-range low-volume of fire weapons on a super-heavy assault transport was a stupid idea. Crusader and Redeemer actually can perform in their role, classic LR is poorly armed for a transport and too expensive to be a fire support unit.

>> No.22452082

Whichever one carries more terminators.

>> No.22452083

>sucks to be a chaos space marine

>> No.22452110
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Now wearing some protection in a cockpit isn't exactly a bad idea as you guys are pointing out, but this guy isn't just wearing padding. He's got fucking power armor on. POWER ARMOR. The shit that makes space marines pretty damn invulnerable to anything short of anti-tank weapons. And last I checked, each suit was like a relic or something.

Wearing it on the landspeeder, maaaaybe I can understand since their top half is kinda exposed. But the flier? If they have to worry about small arms fire, then they have bigger problems.

And I thought wearing power armor in a rhino/predator/land raider was just as stupid. Seriously, how can this guy duck down past his shoulders? It's not like PA has much give to it.

>> No.22452114

The LR does have a twin-linked Heavy Bolter. Which actually wasn't that bad. The only thing the Crusader was really, was a "hurr let's make a pure anti-infantry Land Raider, but make it more betterer, specifically for the Black Templars!"

It's fucking stupid.

>> No.22452140
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>Complaining about impractical design
>In 40K

>> No.22452147
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Hear this dirge and despair!

>> No.22452162

guys I think that the main problem with the bolter racks is just that GW hasn't realized that anti-personnel tanks and air force is just an outdated concept but since 90% of 40k battle forces are infantry (who the hell plays only armor?) and bolters are some pretty heavy guns they still run by it. Lets not get mad at a fantasy setting, we may be over-thinking it

>> No.22452167
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>> No.22452173

Terminator armor are relics, Powered armor is still mass produced, while according to white dwarf, the admech still makes Terminator Armor, but they take a stupid amount of time to create.

Also most space marine pilots have worn powered armor in the fluff, like thunderhawk pilots are stated to wear it.

>> No.22452187


The neural interfaces of the armour is hooked up to the Jet giving the marine increased control and reflexes.

Since the armour contains life support systems there's no need to keep the cockpit oxygenated.

>> No.22452199

I dunno, remove the stormtalon turbine and I think about buying that. I love that predator turret.

>> No.22452215

I kinda hate the huge centerpiece trend when we get stupid shit like the Space Marine vacumcleaner landspeeder and the flying Lego (not good Lego either) shaped airplanes.

Space Marines are really getting shafted on this. I loathe to think what SoB would get.

>> No.22452221

>we may be over-thinking it
>Rating Imperial vehicles from 40k based on efficiency and practicality

>> No.22452223


Vanilla marines got it as early as 2004, Templars just acted as a test platform and can be forgiven for having had exclusive rights for a while.

LR's twin-linked heavy bolter is not a transport's weapon. It is outmatched by other weapons in both anti-infantry and anti-tank in 24'' range and less - with low volume of fire for an anti-infantry weapon and low firepower for anti-vehicle weapon, literally the only thing it brings to the table is 36'' range.

Classic landraider has armament comparable to Predator Destructor with lascannon sponsons, except it costs 250 points because of its transport capacity which encourages it to go to enemy melta range without weapons to take those infantry units out.

It is terrible and always has been.

>> No.22452231

So it's a regular Landspeeder? Step it up, son.

>> No.22452277

I like the new DA land speeder, it screams w40k to me

>> No.22452278


>> No.22452317
File: 1.53 MB, 1544x1544, 1349510438091.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

The landspeeder wouldn't be so bad if the gunner was moved back to where the glass window/ passenger seat is like on the regular land speeder. As he is now, he just looks really out of place on the nose there.

>> No.22452381
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>RUSSIAN engineering


>Implying Russian weaponry sucks

>Implying the legendary AVOMAT KALASHNIKOV RIFLES are not deserving of their legendary status.

Don't you EVER fucking set foot in /k/. I will rape you.

>> No.22452407

One guy is the pilot, the other guy is the DJ. Those angels and skulls are actually speakers
It all plays hardcore techno for them to dance and get all sweaty to before their gay sex.

>> No.22452413

Would'nt the guy in the front turret block the drivers view? Seem like a fast moving vehicle 101 oversight.

>> No.22452415

>random rod
I think you know what that rod is for...

>> No.22452456


>> No.22452462

To be fair, it's actually not 'russian engineering', but rather 'typical WW2 wonder-weapon prototype'. The PPSH-variant Il-2 never maded it into mass-production, and indeed part of that is because it's performance would have been rather lackluster. Filling the bomb-bay with submachine gunes makes it fairly effective in short-bursts against infantry... but Bombs are also just as effective against infantry positions, as well as tanks. All the PPSH-bay would do to a tank, is briefly confuse it's crew as they wonder why they're still alive.

>> No.22452470
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>Implying the AK-47 wasn't just a struck of luck by someone copying the StG 44

>> No.22452511
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Why none has noticed the Angry Marines power baseball bat yet?

>> No.22452514


>Implying Mikhail Kalashnikov copied the STG44

Nope. AK has a higher cyclic rate of fire and only eight moving components.

>> No.22452520

Does that flyers gun seriously open rifts into the Warp?

That's retarded. Why would humanity do that? Where did they get the tech? That sort of tech is supposed to be a high-end Eldar weapon that demonstrates the Eldar's incredible technological prowess and mastery of the Warp. WHY would humanity issue a weapon that creates Warp rifts anyway?

>> No.22452558

Because what better way to get rid of the Fallen than to shoot them into the Warp and banish them foreve- oh fuck, wait, we've made a terrible mistake!

>> No.22452585


Because First Legion archeotech.

And don't you dare to claim eldar should always have better tech than space marines because they're elves or something. We've had enough of elf threads for today at /tg/.

>> No.22452659
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>> No.22452660

Eldars have better tech than Space Marines because they are not the Imperium.

>> No.22452661

silly Anon, that's Power Dildo

>> No.22452687


Non-imperials should have worse tech. Look at Tau or Kroot or Orks.

>> No.22452760
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>> No.22452784

But Eldar figured out how to technology eons ago. Even the Necrons makes a laughingstock of everyone else in the setting.

The entire shtick with the Imperium is that they fail at innovation because mystify everything.

>> No.22452817

Yeah, no. Imperials should have fairly average tech. They should not be on the upper-ends of the scale. In fact, no race should *TRULY* have 'inferior tech', but rather just different styles. Nids have biotech, C:Eldar are psychic-tech, Tau are more highly creative tech, Imperial as rote and standardized design tech, Orks should emphasize rugged and utility over aesthetics, Necrons are wonderous bizarro necro-magic tech, Dark Eldar having soul-powered poison underhanded tech, etc. etc. etc.

The problem is, 40k has long since abandoned the concept that 'non imperial armies' should be 'better at something than Imperial', which is of course one of the major reasons why 40k is such a large steaming pile of shit.

>> No.22452888
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Whoah, he improved the original design! That must be proof enough that it wasn't just the product of a design contest where the rules were "We need gun like STG44, but for motherland". I mean, don't get me wrong, Mikhail Kalashnikov did an awesome job at making the design even more awesome in under 10 years from the original and has been one of the best ones even until now, but still he didn't invented the concept of Assault Rifles, German engineers did. Also in my original post I wasn't bitching about Russian engineering but more saying that it's kinda brutal, the main line being "lets make it BIGGER!" while forgetting about practicality (althou it's true that Stalin and Hitler both though that Super Heavy Tanks were the future of tank and battlefield warfare, which as we know it was just a dick measuring contest between the two)

>> No.22453053

You guys are forgetting that the DaoT humans had technology that blows the Eldar and even the Necrons out of the water.

The Imperium doesn't need innovatio because everything is already there and buried under their feet or hidden in their basements.

>> No.22453081

>You guys are forgetting that the DaoT humans had technology that blows the Eldar and even the Necrons out of the water.

This is what Imperial-Fags actually believe.

>> No.22453104

But they are to stupid to put it to use.

>> No.22453122

Guardsmen also shit nuggets of pure awesome, could each individually take out a hive tyrant, and make eldar women fall on their knees. The Admech don't bring out their best toys in case they make the other races jealous, but they have pistols that can kill stars and shit.
Don't even get me started on Space Marines.

>> No.22453134

For a fair bit, humanity, while not as aesthetically elegant as the Eldar, blew all comers out of the water in terms of raw technological capacity.
Even CE are not at the top of their game, using weapons that were leftover from the end of their empire.
The only forces in 40k to truly claim high tech crowns are DE and Necrons, with Imperials having sparks here and there that are too rare to place faith in.

>> No.22453163

DAoT humans never had the warp-free travel that eldar/necrons do. They're the ones who invented the navigators, because they had no better option.

Also, being able to make people into immortal robots that teleport away on death is likewise a tad beyond the abilities of DAoT humans.

>> No.22453229

>DAoT humans never had the warp-free travel that eldar/necrons do
I do believe you need to re-read your lore.
Eldars and Necrons both use the warp, just in a different way, and Necrons had to crib shit from the Eldar. The Eldar could do this because they were a psychic race, while humans decided to ENGINEER AN ENTIRE SUBSECT OF HUMANITY in order to facilitate travel.
It's the same results, different method to achieve those results. Neither is inherently better than the other when you look at the options the respective species had.

>> No.22453235

A lot of that tech has degrqded because it was to advanced for the Admech.

>> No.22453238

>Because First Legion archeotech.

Is that the explanation? That's actually pretty cool. Nice to see the Dark Angels getting unique tech shit that's actually interesting rather than just WE HAVE MORE PLASMA CANNONS SUCK OUR FIRST LEGION DICKS

>> No.22453315

New 40k player here (Space Marines), still learning tactica and rules and such. What sort of guns should I stick on my vehicles? There was some talk earlier about non-Crusader Land Raiders having shit armaments for their role, and I wanted to make sure I wasn't gluing/painting vehicles that are just completely impractical.

>> No.22453316

The cathedral stuff looks dumb.

>> No.22453360

Playing Flight of the Valkyries on his Chaplain approved space pipe organ.

+15 points nets you an accompanying servitor string orchestra.
+25 points and you can replaced the assault cannon and gunner for an Orchestrator Primus Techmarine who gains full access to wargear.

>> No.22453425

>There was some talk earlier about non-Crusader Land Raiders having shit armaments for their role, and I wanted to make sure I wasn't gluing/painting vehicles that are just completely impractical.
Depends on what vehicles you are using, actually.
The land raider is a high priced, high defense vehicle that is designed to cart around high value units and generally deliver them into the thick of battle (because those high value units are usually termies or hqs that slap shit in CC).
It has, however, 2 tl-lascannons, a long range anti-tank weapon on a close quarters platform. They boost it's price by perhaps 40 points or more and you don't even get the option of removing them.

>> No.22453471

Whatever guns you want, or think you'll need most. Generally speaking though, Multi-meltas are currently the best anti-tank weapon in the Imperium, and anything melta-based is better than anything lascannon. Autocannon-dreadnoughts (a.k.a. Rifleman) are best setup for dreads without going pure-melee if you're playing Blood Angels. Land Raider Redeemer/Crusaders are best Land Raiders, due to effectively being "Land Raiders +1" for slightly more or significantly less points. Plus they have more transport capacity. Predators are currently lackluster, though Autocannon+Lascannon isn't bad. Baal Predators however are stupidly good. Vindicators are always solid choice. Whirlwinds are dirt-cheap anti light-infantry ordnance, and so are worthless (due to how sporadic it is that you'll actually play against a non-marine army). Speeders need meltas. Razorbacks are a toss-up, but assault-cannons aren't a bad option if you can take it.

>> No.22453487

I don't know you guys, but I'm getting REALLY tired of idiots questioning the aerodynamic design of every single flyer they release.

It's not a fucking Boeing 747, it's a toy for a futuristic (very very futuristic) setting based on the OVER THE TOP philosophy.

tl;dr >mixing real life and fiction

>> No.22453673


It is clearly a sensor.

>> No.22453690

Yeah, a heat sensor. Used anally.

>> No.22453855

>You guys are forgetting that the DaoT humans had technology that blows the Eldar and even the Necrons out of the water.

They had better fucking tech then now, think a whole IG-army with spacemarine gear, but they werent supirior to the Eldar, for god's sake! The only reason the Imperium is this strong at this point is because of their massive population, a tad of organization and the downfall of the Eldar. Their Tech now ranges from shit-tier (flashlights) to slightlyaboveaverage-tier (Spessmarine gear), and then there are the Titans which I have to admit I cant really place.

They never had near the best tech

>> No.22453907

>shit-tier (flashlights)
Lasguns are actually pretty goddamned good. It's the AK-47 of 40k. Extremely reliable, easy to manufacture, and effective. It's problem is that the setting is not focused around IG and/or the xenos' power levels. But rather the the setting is built to be a "LOOK AT HOW SUPER AWESOME SPESS MUHREENS ARE!"

>> No.22453960


Which is more awesome than any xenos.

And since Marines are Imperial and include the most high-tech, elite forces in the game, the Imperium must be considered the most advanced faction.

>> No.22453993

>Extremely reliable, easy to manufacture, and effective

doesnt have shit against a gauss gun, against a shoota, against every kind of shuriken weapon, against every Tau weapon, against EVERYTHING.

Its a good weapon, if you have billions and billions of soldiers who use it. But its not supirior tech to anything

>> No.22454016

>They had better fucking tech then now, think a whole IG-army with spacemarine gear, but they werent supirior to the Eldar, for god's sake!
There is no way to quantify such a claim because most examples of DAoT equipment are GONE. What's left are basic items that can't be recreated. All 5+ varieties of titan, 3 of which can't be rebuilt and 1 that has only a single known example of, whatever was the higher end armor, weapons, vehicles that only the land speeder and raider survive, the fact that current imperial battleships are not even ships of the line, but were DAoT merchant vessels with guns slapped on them, teleporting tech that at this point, only the GKs seem to have true access to.
Like I said, Eldar and Necrons had perhaps more elegant technology, but what humanity's top end was probly will never be known. But it was enough to send Eldar hiding and Orks stood nothing of a change at all.

>> No.22454033

>Why would humanity do that?
Good weaponry

>Where did they get the tech?
Probably from their Vortex Weapons

>WHY would humanity issue a weapon that creates Warp rifts anyway?
A Reaver Titan's Vortex missile destroys everything under a 10" blast template including terrain, clearly warp-weapons are very killy and the IoM likes killy.

>> No.22454049

Titans are called god-machines for a reason. They fuck everyone and everything up, no two ways about it.

As for best tech? Well, it is ambiguous. What it comes down to is human codexes saying that DAOT humanity was god-mode, Eldar codexes making a similar claim, and if you look at the timeline, both occurred within the same time-frame. Clearly, there can't be two galaxy spanning super-empires that didn't even notice each other.

I figure eldar probably had a slight tech advantage offset by human Iron men robot armies and massive human numerical superiority. I imagine it as something of a Cold War. Niether side wants to take on the other because both are capable of MAD. There probably wasn't any galaxy spanning war due to the eldar living a life of excess and party hard because they didn't have anything to do to take their minds off of it, so who knows? Maybe pre-Emperor humanity got along with eldar just fine and the two powers existed simultaneously without war between them? I dunno. I doubt that that would happen in actual GW fluff.

The other, and what I consider more likely situation is that nobody bothered to check their fucking timelines when outlining this shit, so you have DAOT humanity "rising to power" at the same time that the eldar empire was at its height simply due to a fucking error of nobody doing their homework. Which, when you get right down to it, is very much the kind of shit that I can see happening in games workshop

>> No.22454062

new 40k player here? Am I reading this right in the rule book? do cultist get 3 attacks when charging one for attacks one for charge and one for having two weapons?

>> No.22454063

I wouldnt say that Spess marines have the highest tech, if you would strip away their biological enhancements you got an excellent armor with standart life support and gadgets, well armored hovertanks and well armored normal tanks. Thats just very good, not the absolute best. For that see necrons and not-well-represented-on-table Eldar

>> No.22454086

>But it was enough to send Eldar hiding and Orks stood nothing of a change at all.

I dont get that, where does it say that?

>> No.22454116

In Priests of Mars, the Ark Mechanicus uses a DAOT weapon which fires a black hole or someshit at an Eldar Ship which instantly destroys it.

The Ark Mechanicus' DAOT sensors were the only ships in the fleet that could detect the Eldar ship in the clusterfuck solar conditions around them.

So clearly Dark Age of Technology humanity was pretty badass.

>> No.22454119

>But it was enough to send Eldar hiding and Orks stood nothing of a change at all.

Wait, what?
How does "The eldar weren't interested and left humanity alone" translate into "into hiding."

And Emps was nearly strangled by an Ork.
Where's your God-Emperor now?

>> No.22454132

So, Im a bit of a noob, but Ive always read, that in the DAoT humanity was nothing but one of many small Alien civilisations for the Eldar, only ignored because they were busy having massive orgies. It appeared to me as if they could have been destroyed easily by the Eldar if they cared to.

>> No.22454133

Yes, they get three.

One for base attacks.

One for having charged.

One for having two CCW in the form of the CCW and the pistol.

>> No.22454137


Timeline also says that humans collapsed into the Age of Strife thousands of years before the Fall due to warp storms and psykers etc, Eldar spent this time by having orgies.

>> No.22454142

base attack value
+1 from two c&c weapons
+1 from charging

>> No.22454164


The eldar ship was not actually destroyed, it just fled the scene.

>> No.22454166

I seriously have to ask: Is, considering the strength the eldar suposidly had, a oneshoting of one ship really that impressive? And a good scanner?

>> No.22454168

DAOT ruled a significant portion of the galaxy, far from "small". Most of the current Imperium of Man was reclaimed lost colonies of DAOT humanity, and they're still finding new ones in various states of disrepair and decline.

That being said, there's no fluff I know of that states how the two races got along back in the day.

>> No.22454184


Hey guys, guess who just won this thread?

>> No.22454193

>But its not supirior tech to anything
Because everything is all about 'superior tech'.

Newsflash for you. The Tiger 1e was 'superior tech' to the T34. Guess which one had a greater impact, and which one is considered to be one of the two best designed tanks from WW2.

Regardless, the Lasgun is simple, easy to manufacture, stupidly reliable, and effective. It's ammo is also readily recharged by direct sunlight, or in a pinch can be thrown into a fire (though it damages the ammo-packs). In comparison, the Shoota is only reliable in the hands of an ork, and prone to jamming for anyone else attempting to fire it. Gauss guns are magic bad-science guns, and shuriken weapons are downplayed in 40k.

And all of those other examples you give are STILL part of the 'unimportant backdrop races' that exist just to further hammer home the idea that marines are awesome, and everyone should buy marines.

>> No.22454218

>Like I said, Eldar and Necrons had perhaps more elegant technology, but what humanity's top end was probly will never be known. But it was enough to send Eldar hiding and Orks stood nothing of a change at all.
Yet more nonsense that Imperial fanboys actually believe.

>> No.22454222 [DELETED] 


I'm still quite fond of the moment in the Taros Campaign where Imperium troops are confident the arrival of Titans secures their victory, but the Tau have learned from their previous encounters and their anti-Titan tactics quickly overwhelm and destroy one. The Mechanicum panics, withdrawing their Titans, and the Imperium's routed.

>> No.22454223


Well learn to deal with it, you're on the fucking internet. I for one, would like GW to make at least a modicum of effort at designing realistic vehicles.

>> No.22454228

It's more the fact that the cannon fired was was described as "a temporary black hole".

We're also talking about an Eldar ship that solo'd an Imperial Battleship (namely because the Battleship couldn't see shit)

>> No.22454246

And One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

>> No.22454247

Considering that Eldar prided themselves on making ships nigh impossible to detect, and it takes a whole lot to oneshot ANY ship of the line in 40k, it's a fair bit impressive.

>> No.22454249


I'm still quite fond of the moment in the Taros Campaign where Imperium troops are confident the arrival of Titans secures their victory, but the Tau have learned from their previous encounters and their anti-Titan tactics quickly overwhelm and destroy one. The Mechanicum panics, withdrawing their Titans, and the Imperium's routed.

>> No.22454271

I'm sorry but I dont really get your argument. Yeah, shootas are only relyable in orkish hands, but thats magic-tech, which a portion of human tech is also, Gauss isnt strictly magic-tech but only warhammer-imagined-tech which is totally valid in the imaginary world of warhammer, shuriken are downplayed, but YOU BET they are as good as lasguns and for eldar of old (and probably even of new) as easy to reproduce and the argument with the other races being a gimmick for SM isnt one.

I dont understand what you are trying to say

>> No.22454277

It also detected the Eldar ship in conditions that made the other Imperial Ships have a hard time detecting each other.

>> No.22454307
File: 47 KB, 712x400, bscap0753sl.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I understand some people dont like the aestheticsof these new models but damn theres alotta hate here. WWII bombers had multiple crew members who didnt fly, so the guy in the back of the speeder could be the navigator, weapon systems officer or hell, just a regular copilot. That useless rod on the front would be likened to a modern day pitot tube used for providing data to aircraft sensors and instruments such as airspeed, temperature, etc. Shit man, B-17s had like 10 .50 cals on em for air defense, so ground weapons on an aircraft is really not that wild

>> No.22454328

To wit, that entire campaign was wonky.
Absolutely NOTHING went in the Imperium's favor, from the third page, the nature of void shields was ignored for that single incident, and for some reason, the Admech didn't go full batshit crazy as they tend to and seek revenge for the destruction of one of their god machines. Hell, they only committed 3 warhounds in the first place.

>> No.22454337


And just to add in here for a sec? Eldar ships are generally regarded as fucking invisible to anything that isn't also eldar, and maybe sometimes the Necrons.

>> No.22454339

Shuriken weapons are weird.
The specific verb GW uses to describe their firing mechanism is more analogous to it "vomiting" the shot then slinging it or projecting it. They're also really high rate of fire, but only moderately accurate.
Space Elves prefer SMGs. How atypical. Might be to create more difference between the basic shuriken rifle and Ranger longrifles, as well as Dark Reaper cannons.

IIRC in the old RT shuriken guns used magnetic acceleration, and were relatively straightforward.

Hey, anyone with DE Codex: would you relate any description on how Splinter weapons work? It occurs to me that I do not know.

>> No.22454374


Eldar ships have never been described as invisible to Necrons, in fact Necron ships' most basic weapon totally ignores Eldar defenses in BFG.

>> No.22454381

which shows, that DAoT was pretty good, but as you say, Eldar ships can detect it, so it doesnt show superiority

>> No.22454391
File: 51 KB, 341x340, de4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.22454398

That's not even a demi-legion for fucks sake.

Besides, even the best weapon doesn't perform well when not applied correctly or with good supporting tactics. Which clearly wasn't the case. And that entire entry was basically Tau fapfic to show off their special tactics.

>> No.22454404

No non-Necron race has anything as OTT as the Celestial Orrery, not even the Chaos Gods compare.

>> No.22454418

also, all of this is for the race in question easy to make and sustain, so that argument is null

>> No.22454421


Hence the exception for Necrons.

>> No.22454435

>imperum win against tau

>tau win over the imperium

>> No.22454467

Goddamn the feed systems on those guns must be a fucking mess. They might have individual magazines, but then resupply times become apocalypticly limiting.
And what about all the brass generated? Does this things just spray cartridges like an albatross with dandruff during a strafing run?
I'll admit I think it's kinda cool, but it's kind of hard to ignore thinking on how those guns might (not) work.

>> No.22454489

>imperum win against tau
To my knowledge, has only ever happened once in the Zeist Campaign.
Tau have too much plot armor.

>> No.22454508

>Implying most aircraft didn't have infantry weapons up until the advent of jet fighters
>Implying that a bolter round isn't akin to a .50 BMG in power
>Implying that the concept isn't based off of the B-25

>> No.22454512


Spess woofs win an underwater war against the Tau in their codex. And there is more.

>> No.22454515

> the Boltgun fires a self-propelled explosive 'bolt' which explodes with devastating effect once it has penetrated its target, effectively blowing it apart from the inside.
Do they eject brass? This is actually something I've seen conflicting reports on.

>> No.22454521

The only thing stopping the Chaos Gods from turning all existence in the galaxy into their own eternal playground is the Emperor.

So take that Orrey and stick it up your shinny metal arse!

>> No.22454535

>From this day on you will serve the cause of the Soviet military in a most vital way!
>Here are some gloves, and a stepladder. Get started, comrade.

>> No.22454543

Caseless and cased bolters are both in the fluff. IMO, holding the projectile completely inside the case makes sense if you like durability.

>> No.22454544

Marine Codex has plenty of examples of marines winning against the Tau not just the Zeist.

>> No.22454573


>> No.22454585

>The only thing stopping the Chaos Gods from turning all existence in the galaxy into their own eternal playground is the Emperor.

Goddammit, how I wish that wasnt the case. I HATE the fact, that there is no speculation of a Mad-Max-like galaxy without warptravel and just less psychic protection for after Emps death, but instead just an end-button. He is freaking important, thats okay, but making EVERY HUMAN a gateway to teh warp upon his death (for some reason never really explained) is just unnecessarily killing all grimdark speculation, only optimistic ones like starchild are still valid.

REALLY grinds my gears

>> No.22454598

Both exist. The purpose of the shell (if it is there) is as a kicker round to get it out of the barrel before the rocket kicks in.

In bolters that don't have cases the kicker round may either be built into the shell, or the weapon itself (magnetic acceleration, for example).

>> No.22454607

>Rifts into the warp

They stole Dcannon tech now?


>> No.22454617

>complains about infantry weapons on fighter planes
>all factions of WW2 put infantry machine guns on fighter planes as armament at some point

>> No.22454618
File: 48 KB, 137x150, 1267550321498.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Hey now, thanks James.

>> No.22454643

as stated before:
Imperium have used warp weapons for a while.

>> No.22454651
File: 209 KB, 1152x864, heresey for kids.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.22454661

I recall reading bolt rounds were .75 caliber....

>> No.22454667

Boltguns aren't infantry machine guns. Putting Boltguns on a plane is like putting M1918 BARs on a plane. It's fucking retarded. The 'machine-gun' equivalent that SHOULD be on the plane, are fucking heavy bolters.

>> No.22454699


Nonsense! they were gifts!

>> No.22454715

Depending upon the sperging neckbeard, or writer, in question... Boltguns range from .50 caliber to 1.0 caliber. Just like how fanboys tend to keep increasing the "canon height" of a marine well beyond that of what is actually canon.

>> No.22454716


>> No.22454762


Smash the orrery and the materium's chaos feeders die, and the gods starve in their pit. Emperor and his failure to even hold a stretch of the webway with an army against some daemons and chaos marines can barely boast of being more powerful than Abaddon,

>> No.22454769


It isn't seven feet, it is seven meters!

>> No.22454805


It's just another "this faction is totally unstoppable", do not pay it heed.

Necron codex says that unless all races unite and prevent Tomb Worlds from awakening, they will fall and Necrons shall rule supreme for all eternity. Tyranids have a similar line and so on.

>> No.22454811

Well, its not like you need to be Aerodynamic in space. Its space. What the fuck kind of wind forces are you gonna go up against? A ship could pretty much be a box with flat edges. So let them put their statues on ships.

>> No.22454830

It also depends on if it's being issued to guardsmen, powered armored sisters, or 7 foot tall killing machines with 300 pounds of muscle.

>> No.22454835

>Just like how fanboys tend to keep increasing the "canon height" of a marine well beyond that of what is actually

is it 3 meters? Is it only 2.5?

>> No.22454864

You don't need to be aerodynamic, but you do need equal thrust in relation to center of mass. 40k ships may not need aerodynamics, but they're still fucking idiotic designs.

>> No.22454876

>it looks the same
>must be a copy

>> No.22454883

I just thought of it as codex-wanking, everything being written in-universe, i just thought i could think of it as the ramblings of a paranoid puritan inquisitor.

But apperently (and that comes from other fa/tg/uys), this is also stated in other media, none of which i can remember atm, and that, to me, makes it more than codexwankery

>> No.22454889

No offence, but Stg. 44 was not the first one. It was the first modern, that's true, but the concept and several weapons fitting the bill of an assault rifle had been around for decades before.

For example the Fedorov Avtomat made during WW1, was a short recoil select fire weapon that fired intermediate cartridges from a 25 round detachable box magazine.

Just because one came before does not mean the second one is a rip-off. The reason Tupolev Tu-144 looks like the Concorde is simply because it's really practical design for the job it's suppose to do. AK47 and Stg. 44 look the part not because one is a cheap knock-off of the other, but because both designed came to the same conclusion of the same problem. AK47 is a weapon made based on lessons learned from WW2, as was the Stg. 44.

>> No.22454905

we were talking about efficiency, I think. Also, does that mean that we have to make Titans less pointlessly easy targets?

>> No.22454921

>7 foot tall
Thank you for not being pants on head retarded.

>> No.22454941

I gotta say that while there's still no such thing as Enuff Dakka, that thing is giving it a good try.
Maybe that's the problem; all those wing-guns are way more Orky than Tin Can Humie. Scrape those friezes off, staple a grot or two up for decoration, and as an early warning system, and it's roight propah!

>> No.22454952

2.13 meters

>> No.22454965


>> No.22454975


And that seems awefully small. They arent as much giants and more really tall guys, as tall as very tall normies.

kinda underwelming

>> No.22454982

I use the redeemer, Because burnin shit at ap3 is awesome.

>> No.22454985

Wz. 1937. Polish BAR variant that was given a 91 round drum magazine, 1,100 round rate of fire and mounted on aircraft.

Your argument is invalid.

>> No.22454995


It's factionwank regardless of whether it comes from more than one codex. GK codex says that Justicar Thawn who's immortal (In fact very much like the Perpetuals of HH series) knows that Chaos will eventually win, but that does not really make it true. Necron, Tyranid and Chaos victories are also all prophecied by the impersonal codex narrator, and it may be true or not. 40k is not that consistent.

>> No.22455039


Regular bolters can be belt-fed easily, though. Chaos dudes do that shit all the time.

It's a bit risky since a stray shot/shrapnel could detonate them, but apparently it's cheaper to chain bullets together rather than manufacturing new magazines. But there might be more reasons for this.

>> No.22455080

The Chaos consuming the galaxy if the Emperor dies, comes from the Rulebook the part where they talk about the Emperor.

I don't that can be considered factionwank.

>> No.22455093

Some sources I've seen say 8 feet.
I recall one that says 9

>> No.22455122


The rulebook fluff section is a guide to Imperium and how these pests affect it. It's no more or less valid than the codex descriptions of various faction endgames.

>> No.22455126

Me neither. I still think its utter ass. Why's that even? I mean, why on earth are humans becoming psychic and bam, just dont have any protection against the warp. Millions of species. None of them experience this. But humans do. So the Emp can be painted as a more powerfull dude

>> No.22455130

Bolters are better than infantry machine guns. Or have you seen a light/medium machine gun that fires 19mm exploding rockets at rapid fire with rifle range and accuracy? Slap a belt feed on it (which already exists), tweak the ROF, enjoy.

Got a source on that caliber claim, since only one's you'll find are .75 caliber ones.

>> No.22455140

Squats confirmed for returning - as space marines.

>> No.22455145

Some Marines also get a random growth gene that makes them too big to fit into regulation armor.
It's tits, can't explain it even with magic.

>> No.22455189

He's just doing his best to protect us, and psykers in particular from Chaos (since he's come to realize it's our destiny to become psykers all of us). If he dies, increase in corruption and daemonic incursions will be least of our problems.

>> No.22455199

>Regular bolters can be belt-fed easily, though
That doesn't mean shit. The Soviet PPSH was drum-fed, and the Il-2 prototype mounted with a bomb-bay full of the things was STILL a stupid idea that never went into mass production (for a very good reason). And the PPSH was a fucking SMG!

Bolters are a rapid-fire weapon, putting them on par with a standard infantry assault-rifle in terms of rate of fire. Machine-guns were actually mounted on plains, because machine guns have high a high rate of fire. Again, mounting standard infantry equivalent of an assault-rifle in bulk, onto a plane, is fucking retarded. For well below half the space you could easily fit a quad of machine guns that will provide more firepower, while also being much more effective. Again, the problem here is that GW went with 'rule of derp', in an attempt at 'rule of cool'.

>> No.22455219
File: 121 KB, 901x1024, I+think+you+re+talking+about+Space+Marines+_d0e333d6e2e4ee43759499a7421a958a.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Ill just leave this hereIll just

>> No.22455243

>Bolters are better than infantry machine guns. Or have you seen a light/medium machine gun that fires 19mm exploding rockets at rapid fire with rifle range and accuracy? Slap a belt feed on it (which already exists), tweak the ROF, enjoy.
Yet more nonsense that Imperial fanboys actually believe.

Pro-tip for you, closest equivalent in 40k to a modern machine-gun, is a heavy stubber. The 'machine-gun' rate of fire Bolter, is the Heavy Bolter.

>> No.22455254


40k is a "humans are special" setting.

Elder races such as Eldar are ultimately destined to fade into history and disappear from the galaxy. But humans have an endgame scenario where everyone becomes Superman because psychic awakening and stuff.

>> No.22455278

well yeah but the Stg. 44 was the most reliable at the time and yes, the Stg. 44 was developed as a lesson from WWII, except the lesson for the AK-47 WAS the Stg. 44, hence the design contest. The main difference between pre-Stg. 44 assault rifles and post is that full automatic fire mode on the previous models were pretty much unusable due to the huge recoil. Also remember that the father of the Stg. 44, Schmeisser, went to Russia after the war and actually was on the design team of the AK (althou his contribution is greatly debated)

>> No.22455293
File: 83 KB, 600x600, 1279295301853.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

meh, seems reasonable don't really care.

>> No.22455323

Oh fuck it, Ill still argue that E is just a extremely powerfull psycher, that he is braindead and not concouse and that, when he dies, a second eye of terror comes, our dear light house breaks down and psychers are a little less protected, as much as i can root it in fluff.

because fuck random buzzkills

>> No.22455330


Fucking hate that picture it looks rediculous.

Power armour is supposed to have multiple layers AND fibrebundles AND the electronics to power it all....

Yet in places that armour looks less than a centimeter thick.

>> No.22455335
File: 124 KB, 506x799, dWwr8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

That's either the thinnest power armor in the galaxy, or that marine was drawn a tad too chunky.

Next time you wonder how a spehss mehren looks without armor, just think of this dude.

>> No.22455341

Hint: Rate of fire can be tweaked. M1919 issued to ground troops has a ROF around 400 to 600 rounds per minute, while ones mounted on planes could have ROF of 1,200+. Tony Stein recovered one from a wrecked plane, fitted it with a stock and sling, and used it as his personal gun spraying the enemy with its awesome ROF. The military tried to same with the T33 variant of the M1919, but there were problems with overheating (with all the air rushing in flight, plane guns can handle the extra dakka) and it never made production.

>> No.22455437

>Yet more nonsense that Imperial fanboys actually believe.


Beltfed non-heavy bolters are canon. Bolters do fire 19mm rockets and can be set to full-auto. How the fuck is that nonsense?
Plus even if the ROF remains kinda lowish, say around 400-500 RPM, you have a bunch of them on the wings. That's a lotta diddly.

>> No.22455484

>implying "machine gun rate of fire" is a thing
>implying game stats relate to fluff

>> No.22455542

Say they're 400 RPMs. Link them all to fire one after the other and you get a nice ROF of 2400 RPMs. Lotta diddly indeed.

>> No.22455568

I just dislike it because it's yet another thing that the Space Marines now have that used to be xeno stuff.

Space Marines now have a better grav-tank gunboat than the Eldar. -sigh-

>> No.22455577

It STILL was not mounted on a fucking airplane, because an actual machine gun is a better use of space.

>> No.22455641


In the grim darkness of the far future, heavy bolters and heavy bolter rounds are expensive, yo. Here, let's weld a bunch of regular bolters to this thing, it's gonna work just fine against infantry and light-medium armor. Blessed be the Omnissiah.

>> No.22455696

Except many aircraft had .30 caliber machineguns mounted on them when .30 caliber rifles were standard issue.

>> No.22455713

>Here, let's weld a bunch of regular bolters to this thing, it's gonna work just fine against infantry and pickup trucks.


>> No.22455756

On biplanes and early fighters, yes; and .30cal MGs survived as vestigial features on later fighters. But main guns were normally heavy (.50) MGs or 20mm cannon.

>> No.22455791

And that is the typical mentality of "hurr rule of cool".
>But we could just mount several twin machine guns in half as much space, and they'll fire at higher velocity with a much more conservative ammo expenditure!

>> No.22455818


> .75 cal adamantium-tipped, highly explosive rockets flying towards shit
> 40 per second
> implying anything short of a tank isn't hamburger by now

Unarmored pickup trucks my ass.

>> No.22455919

Not really, .30 cal weapons remained as main weapons for a while on aircraft.

Seriously, do a search on WW2 fighter planes and look under "armament" for each of them. Fiddy cals tend to come up only in the heavier ones.

>> No.22455938

acutally, i think that thing looks pretty badass-take the stone decoration off, replace the warp gun with an autocannon or something, and it would look pretty sweet.

>> No.22455970

>> .75 cal adamantium-tipped, highly explosive rockets flying towards shit
>> 40 per second
LMFAO, ok... sure... keep believing you'll be firing 40 a second. BTW...
>Unarmored pickup trucks my ass.
Yup. Unless you really think that you'll be able to get through anything beyond pickup armor (*cough* AT 10).

>> No.22456022

You STILL didn't see 'piles of .30 cal small-arms' being used instead of a couple of .30 cal machine guns. And even then, the .30 cal machine guns were mostly intended for use in dogfights.

>> No.22456075

>keep believing you'll be firing 40 a second

In case you skipped the entire thread, we were talking about the 12 plane-mounted bolters firing at once. One bolter = about 400 RPM. 12 bolters = 4800 RPM.

So yes, actually we'd be firing 80 per second. My bad.

>> No.22456077

>ingame stats accurately represent fluff.

>> No.22456125

Oh, you're one of those "hurr muhreens aren't as good on tabletop as they are in fluff" fags...

>> No.22456152

They arent.

>> No.22456155


Most airborne fighters are merely AT10.

Most tanks also have rear armor of 10 allowing the Dark Talon to threaten most vehicles in 40k.

>> No.22456174

Nothing is as good on tabletop as in fluff, tbh

>> No.22456185

>You STILL didn't see 'piles of .30 cal small-arms' being used instead of a couple of .30 cal machine guns.
> bolters
> small-arms

Bitch, that shit is huge. Plus, what's stopping you from using the Big Pile of Bolters mainly against infantry, skimmers, and light armor and the Warp-o Cannon against bigger targets?

>> No.22456204

1. they aren't.
2. on the tabletop, a Astartes Boltgun which is said to break an ordinary man's arm from recoil, and a boltgun given to an ordinary man, are both Str. 4 AP5.

>> No.22456238

well we need right now to decide in which part of the 40k universe we are talking; actual in-game stats or crazy in-book lore, because in-boo yeah, a bolter will rip throu any kind of light armor, althou the only reason planes like this (anti-personnel planes) exist is as mentioned before because most in-game battles are infantry related, while nowadays the reason anti-personnel tanks and aircraft don't exist is because it's pointless; armor is used primarily for anti-armor combat!

>> No.22456243


In the fluff they are similar as well.

An astartes boltgun merely has a sturdier frame and more advanced targeters and ocular links.

>> No.22456264
File: 117 KB, 523x1255, 1352818451566.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

> Astartes boltgun has a sturdier frame
> Astartes boltgun has more recoil


>> No.22456282

What was not mounted on a fucking airplane? M1919 machine guns? Except that they were. Did you even read the post, the part where the dude salvaged an M1919 machine gun from a fucking airplane?

>small arms

Sure thing. That's why they issue them to only top tier military units clad in power armour, while it takes a hardy individual to use them with any reliability without PA.

Also, why are you butthurt about the Darktalon hurricane bolters and not Stormraven ones? Or mounting bunch of "small arms" on battle tanks?

>> No.22456337

Sturdier frame would not increase recoil, it would only make the gun itself heavier.
Higher recoil implies a bigger bullet.

>> No.22456345
File: 1.23 MB, 965x685, SPESS.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

That dude indeed.

>> No.22456368

FFG's bullshit creeps up again. It's funny that in the very same book where Astartes Boltguns were given stats that make even Tau pulse rifles look weak, bolters are still .75 and the main difference between Marine and regular human bolters is that human bolters have lighter frame and are less refined.

>> No.22456376


It has a more recoil because it uses a stronger propellant for the initial charge.

While a guardsman will fight at range a marine often fights in close assault and thus can't wait for the gyro jet to kick in, it needs to be deadly even sat point blank range.

>> No.22456392


Or a bigger charge.

>> No.22456406

Now this makes sense, thanks.

>> No.22456422

Got any sauce for this fanwank?

>> No.22456522

>Implying anything is as good on the TT as they are in the fluff.
>Except Guard, I'm 99% sure guard were actually made stronger for the TT

>> No.22456546


Nope, sorry.

It's the only logical explanation though.

Low escape-velocity is a problem with gyrojet weapons though, it wouldn't surprise me if they only bothered to fix this for astartes.

>> No.22456568

what about bolt pistols? same idea?

>> No.22456577

Would also explain why a lot of Astartes Boltguns are depicted ejecting brass

>> No.22456617


Seeing as bolt pistols are used for close-quarters fighting it would need to use a strong initial charge to be effective.

>> No.22456662

In one novel a Marine is shot close range through the head with a bolter or bolt pistol, and he lives.

All bolters eject shell casings.

>> No.22456699


Aye, bolters nowadays se depicted as having a two-stage firing mechanism.

The bolt is propelled from the gun in the same way as a regular bullet, once it clears the barrel the gyrojet kicks in.

It wouldn't surprise me if bolters meant for ordinary humans were ordinary caseless gyrojet guns though.

>> No.22456722

I want to buy this, just to loot it.

>> No.22456731


>In one novel a Marine is shot close range through the head with a bolter or bolt pistol, and he lives.

That should probably be ascribed to the sturdiness of an astartes body rather than to the weakness of the bolt pistol.

Which novel was this by the way?

>> No.22456812

Why the fuck aren't you guys drooling over the jetfighter version?

>> No.22456882

Why? The initial charge isn't THAT great. The caliber isn't much different from a shotgun and the bolt takes up most of the casing, so there's not that much propellant to begin with.

There's several cases in the fluff of Marines giving their weapons to non-PA humans to use without a problem, and if regular humans can carry autocannons, stubbers and heavy bolters, and fire them from the hip, I have a hard time believing bolters are somehow gonna tear their arms off and blow their heads with their awesomeness.

>> No.22456916


>> No.22456935


>There's several cases in the fluff of Marines giving their weapons to non-PA humans to use without a problem


>regular humans can carry autocannons, stubbers and heavy bolters, and fire them from the hip


>> No.22456974

Check IG and cultist models.

>> No.22456979


Harker ≠ regular human

>> No.22456982

except that's whats written in the Imperial Munitorum Manual

>> No.22456983

Bolters were pretty prime weapons in fighting other Marines, so surely if they were meant to be that great at close range, a bolt through an unarmoured head of a Marine should be an auto-kill.

I seriously can't remember. Possibly SW, but not sure. I've only seen the scan of the page, nothing more.

Drool? I'm fucking blowing raspberries just looking at that thing. Gonna get one as an Avenger strike fighter for my IG, if nothing else.

>> No.22456994

The only instances I can think of are Braggs(?) from the Ghosts series who's built like a tank and can barely fire the thing, Harker who is a SC so lol SC POWERZ, and the new cultists who are obviously built like tanks themselves are LOL RUINOUS POWERZ.

>> No.22457000

The Necromunda rulebook has Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, and Heavy Stubbers, all available to human gangers, although Heavy Bolters and Stubbers are only for beefcake musclemen.

>> No.22457034

"Like other Space Marine weaponry, Astartes boltguns are designed around their superhuman physique. The weight of each weapon would require most humans to use a supporting brace, with hand-grips larger than any normal human could manage. However, even if a normal human were to fire the boltgun, the resulting recoil would rip their arm from its socket"
The Inquisitor's Handbook page 173.

Also Pariah says that a man carrying a Astartes boltgun would look like a child carrying a regular sized weapon.

>> No.22457044


Harker isnt a normal guardsman, he's a half-ogryn.

A heavy stubbed is a machine gun, while having a high rate of fire it has nowhere near the recoil of a bolter.

That leaves the Autocannon which is tripod mounted, not fired from the waist.

>> No.22457065

Necromunda models don't seem to have any trouble. Nor do the new cultists. Or Ox from Last Chancers.

Eisenhorn was given a bolt pistol or a bolter (same cartridge) by a Deathwatch Marine. I seem to remember one Chaos novel having a human picking dead CSM's bolter and firing it.

Which said that bolters are primary weapons of the Marines and that it takes a hardy individual to operate one effectively. Nothing about "don't you dare touch one or the recoil will pull your spine out through your ass and beat you to death with it."

>> No.22457071


>Bolters were pretty prime weapons in fighting other Marines, so surely if they were meant to be that great at close range, a bolt through an unarmoured head of a Marine should be an auto-kill.

Bolters were made to fight Orks and Mad-Max style techno-barbarians.

They are shit at killing marines.

>> No.22457107

it goes on to say "'Mortal' boltguns are a rank apart and are designed specifically so that mere humans may use them, while they do no possess the same capacity for slaughter as Astartes boltguns they are still deadly weapons. Even these pale shadows of their Astartes brethren are rare trophies to be passed down from generation to generation"

>> No.22457128
File: 49 KB, 873x627, goliath-ac.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>That leaves the Autocannon which is tripod mounted, not fired from the waist.

>> No.22457143

well I dont remember anyone saying something as far as that (althou I see that my comment corroborated your view, should have sayed that it was less than that) but still it does says that without bionic augmentations shooting anything other than one bolt at a time is not recommended because of the heavy recoil. Can't find the quote right now but I think I remember it saying that it wasn't because your aiming would suffer accordingly but that it actually could make physical harm to the shooter

>> No.22457149

40k canon is inconsistent as fuck.
News at 11.

>> No.22457196


Seems GW broke their own rules with Necromunda.

In 40k the Autocannon is a tank weapon and can only be fired from a tripod or if wearing power armour.

Or maybe the Necromunda Autocannon uses the same suspension systems as the Deathwatch Heavy Bolter?

>> No.22457238
File: 345 KB, 511x944, Untitled-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

well since everybody is going all out I'm just gonna post a few pages from the monitorum, you'll be the judges

>> No.22457269


>> No.22457290
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>> No.22457316
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I prefer this one

>> No.22457334
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>> No.22457387

I've always found the "marines use more powerful boltguns" fluff to be ridiculous.

That means in addition to human variant bolter rounds and and heavy bolter rounds there are special "astartes" caliber rounds as well.

Which then makes you wonder why there are no crew served weapons that fire astartes bolter shells.

It's rule of cool marine wank nonsense and should be ignored.

>> No.22457388
File: 320 KB, 549x1007, Untitled-4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

aaaand last a couple of pages on support squads

>> No.22457409

FFG fluff at work once more. I think I'll stick with actuall GW publications, rather than 3rd party ones. Especially when the same books make no difference in cartridge between Marine and "mortal". So where does the extra recoil come from?

Well, I got it right here and what it says is that they're generally carried by stocky individuals because of their size and recoil and only thing it says about firing it is that non-Marines should stick to single shots. Nothing about burst or full auto ripping you a new one. And the cover of Codex: City Fight has an IG sergeant firing a bolter at full auto, so surely it's not impossible nor dangerous, just impractical, like rapid firing a .50BMG rifle. You can do it, but you probably won't hit anything very well.

>> No.22457420
File: 390 KB, 539x1004, Untitled-5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

done. Not lots of answers but it should clear out some aspects

>> No.22457485

Well, all that clears is that bolters have far more recoil than autocannons. Obviously, since they kill you, but it's not unheard of for autocannons being fired from the hip by guardsmen.


>> No.22457530

yeah nah published that quote in >>22457238
but I could swear that in another part of the book they talk about the ripping you a new one thing... fuck I don't want to start reading the whole thing again now!

>> No.22457555

yeah that's the problem, they keep it a little much too vague for what we're talking here

>> No.22457567


>but it's not unheard of for autocannons being fired from the hip by guardsmen.

What? Where?

>> No.22457815

Here >>22457334

At the bottom. Some guardsmen carry them into battle on a harness. One dude picked up the entire tripod assembly and blasted him some 'Nids.

>> No.22457944


It says "suspensor harness" and only the exceptionally strong.

A suspensor harness is a series of anti-gravity plates and recoil-suppressors. And even with that gear you need to be built like an ox.

A regular Autocannon can't be fired from the hip by a normal guardsman.

>> No.22457994

Gaunt's Ghosts, specifically "Try Again" Bragg the heavy weapons guy.

>> No.22458024

Eldar Waifu?
Walking their Ripper?

>> No.22458051


He's described as unnaturally large though.

No othe 'ghost could do that.
99.9% of guardsmen couldn't do that.

And even then the munitorium manual describes Autocannons as being fitted with suspensors.

>> No.22458074

Happens in The Chapter's Due -though Anon may mean something else.
Said Named Marine is also wearing a helmet, ho ho. The round fails to penetrate and skips off the faceplates, but dudefella still has some brain damage and needs a replacement eye.

>My barrels are spinning on their own!

>> No.22458084

That's good too, saved.

>> No.22458111

Well, there is the FFG Bulging Biceps trait.
Takes a 45 Strength, which is downright Orky.
Get the Frenzy talent and when you flip your shit you might be mistaken for a Nob.

>> No.22458164

>A suspensor harness is a series of anti-gravity plates and recoil-suppressors.

Where does it say this?

>And even with that gear you need to be built like an ox.

Where does it say this? The text says it's done by stronger individuals, not dudes built like a shit brick house. with two timbers leaning against it. Also, the dude that picked up the entire assembly to mow down genestealers on the move was a Cadian and not said to be some fucking half-ogryn monster.

Necromunda does not say anything about any harness or anything, just that heavy weapons are often carried by strong gangers with the know-how to operate and maintain them.

In Inquisitor you can have various heavy weapons up to assault cannons and the only requirement is that you need to use two hands in order to fire it and that you get double the penalties from moving and firing.

>> No.22458242


The fluff for Deathwatch Heavy Bolters and servo skulls.

Suspensors are anti-grav motors used to make weapons lighter, suppress recoil and make servo skulls and cherubim fly.

>> No.22458244


I figure that fluff guard just represent an order of magnitude more soldiers tanks and stuff than a TT guard do for the same effectiveness. Depending on the enemy really. for vs nids or whatever, one order of magnitude probably works. for spess mahreens, you prolly need 4-5 more orders of magnitude.

>> No.22458277


The munitorum manual also states that even tripod mounted autocannons have suspensor units.

>> No.22458311

hmm, found this on the grey knights wiki:
>Astartes Psycannon - An ancient weapon whose manufacturing process has long been lost to the Imperium, the Psycannon was specially designed for the Grey Knights. Psycannons always use Psybolt ammunition and incorporate special anti-gravitic suspensors which reduce their weight and make them easier to fire on the move.
don't know if it's the same kind of harness thou

>> No.22458325
File: 291 KB, 245x138, we pimpin.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


Lets see, one autocannon/whatever the fuck special rules they make up for it.
Two heavy bolters.
6 Missiles.

>> No.22458377

>and this is the real reason why we can't have jet bikes

>> No.22458448


Suspensor units are too weak to use on vehicles anyway.

>> No.22458491

How about if instead of making tons of weak anti-grav units for weaklings and heretics and instead pooling all that anti-grav goodness to make powerful anti-grav plates for cool new vehicles?

Seriously, if someone complains about Imperium not having anti-grav tech ever again, I'll drown them in useless anti-grav tech Imperium has spread all over itself.

>> No.22458507


That's like saying
>stop folding paper planes kids, if we work together we could build a real jet plane.

>> No.22458582

Right, because weak anti-grav plates to strong anti-grav plates are like paper to composite alloy hulled, jet engine driven aircraft.

>> No.22458622


A more apt comparison would be comparing a Rechargeable AA battery to a fusion reactor.

Suspensor units run by batteries, anti grav plates run on fusion cores.

>> No.22458688

On what do you base this argument?

>> No.22458739


The description that Landspeeders use the same power source as Power Armour (fusion) and the fact that servo skulls are tiny.

>> No.22458824

That's like saying a flashlight and a spotlight are nothing alike, because one is small and the other one needs a powerplant to power it.

Why can't I make big flashlights that I can plug to a wall socket, or small spotlights that use batteries? Does not the core of the design, the lamp, operate on the same principles on both cases?

>> No.22458947


Think of it more like scaling from your pissy little laser pointer to a gigawatt laser cannon.

Sure, we have the YAL-1 from boeing, but this is the Imperium. Where innovation takes millenia if not more. So rather than going from the discovery and first development of laser technology in the 50s to the first real weaponized prototypes today, we can prolly expect a timeframe more along the lines of between "never" and "when they find an STC of it"

>> No.22459052
File: 62 KB, 700x352, Imperial_Guard001.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Never Forget.
Guardsman Drasquez, 91st Cadian.
Honored with the Honorifica Imperalis.

>> No.22460479

I remember it being stated that each chapter has special ties with nearby mechanicus forges who craft special rounds just for them, it also mentions in a ffg publication that Astartes shells are given a special stamp or mark upon completion and anyone caught in possession of these 'blank' shells are to be executed.

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