/tg/ - Traditional Games

First of all we need some general overview of the archetype, decide what kind of things they are good for and what other things they lack, relative to other archetypes.
Then decide the x, y and z splats ( in vampire clan, covenant and bloodline). I'd stay away from the usual 5/5 approach. 7/7 perhaps? With the "clan" being the way the Paladin's psyche makes him/her more prone to help people in a certain way rather than another (we could call it "Quest": the quest of the crusader, the quest of the healer, the quest of the prophet etc) and the y splat (the "chosen" one) could be the so called "knightly Orders" or just orders. But seems redundant to have a "political" splat in this game...

We should also probably define the Music in a coherent way right from the start so as to avoid misunderstandings down the line. For what matters here's my take for it:
>>For me, it's an immanent force, the building block of everything, that's also living information, and can also trascend it's own limits. It's like everything in the universe Adds up to something greater than the sum of it's parts, that exists outside of time as we know it and retroactivelly has allways kept everything together and Made it's own existence possible. Immanence and trascendence. But above all, it's just the Music you hear and that remembers you, allways, that'll be worth it.

>>21869998
Original Writefag here.
How about:
>How they first came to hear the Music
crossed with
>Their general ideaology

So 5:
>Near Death experience, saved by someone else who died for them (Martyrborn)
>Willingly risked their life for another in a million to one shot (The Willing)
>Tempted by the Silence first (Kinda like the Cauls, anti-hope or whatever) and something changed their view (The Turned)
>Have always believed on some level in the good of man, the music has always been there for them, it just finally came to the forefront in an epiphany (The Singers)
>Redeemed and reborn by another reaching out to them (Redemption)

By:
>Takes up arms in the protection of others (The Knight Errant)
>Creates Tales and Legends, to inspire others to greater deeds and hope (The Golden Helmets)
>The Cynical, but unyielding, who fight on in the darkest places of the world and carry their embers to the shadows without pretending that all things are good and just (The Vimes)
>Speakers for those who cannot speak, who stand for those who cannot stand and inspire others, to greater feats (Angry Men)
>The greatest idealists, those who use their ability to see the pains of men the most, and who suffer the most for it; using their power to heal, what the past has harmed, even at the cost of all they love, and their soul (The Horns)

And for the Token evil branches:
>Those who hear the call of the Silence, but refuse to see the good in mankind along side the Evil, becoming apathetic and Everything is pointless! Hope is weak! ect, ect, as per the original tale, instead of becoming heroes, they become monsters, filled with hatred for all the evils of the world, burning with the fire, but burning to destroy all, instead of just cutting out the Bad.

Makes sense, then we could call the y splat Quests and solve it.
The fallen Paladins i like to think about them going disillusioned by the Music and getting all pic related.

The problem with having the x splat being the way one came to hear the music is it allready has been done by geist... We can work in that i think, but it needs something special.

Ps, forgot to add: awesome story man! You Made my day!

>>21870155
>YOU WILL NEVER HAVE ANOTHER HERO!
>YOU WILL NEVER HAVE ANOTHER CHANCE!
>YOU WILL FALL! BECAUSE YOU NEVER TRIED TO STAND FOR YOURSELVES

And then the Paladin gets up, picks up his sword
>Cliiiiiiiiiimb
>AntiPaladin: What?
>Paladin: Cliiiiiiiiiiimb, to the toooooooooooooop, or the woooooooooooooooorld
>Starts advancing, pushing the Anti-Paladin back towards the Edge, the Anti Paladin runs him through and he keeps on coming
>And when you reach the toooooop
>Yoooooooooooooou will see
>Grabs the AntiPaladin, running himself down the blade, and pulls them both onto the Handrail
>THAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT
>WHEN YOU FAAAAAAAAAAALLLLL
>Leaps off the building, dragging his screaming opposite with him
>YOU WILL FAAAAAAAAAALL, FROOOOOOOOOOM A HEIIIIIIIIIGHT!
>MOST MEN WILL NEVER REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACH!

You know you want it.

>>21870316
All my Fuck Yeahs!

My take on the x splats after a moment of reflection: in catholicism (yeah i know, whatever) there are supernatural phenomenas that aren't exactly miracles but are still sanctioned by God: the gifts of the Holy Ghost or "charismas" (apparently charisma comes from acient greek and means gift, the more you know!). Even if they can apparently manifest as supernatural powers (like prophecy) the important thing of them is the realization, the having felt the holy Ghost and how this changed your life. This is remarkably similar to Hindu Siddhis: a Siddha might be able to supposedly do awesome shit, but the really important thing is the realization, the Epiphany he/she experienced that Made it possible. So i propose we call the x splat "Epiphany" or maybe "Music (in greek)+ phany" if it sounds good (i don't know any Greek medschool hasn't taught me indirectly) that represent both the general way the paladin came to hear the music and the realization he had for it, what he tought was more important of what he experienced. It also implies the kind of power the paladin is more adept using (it's still nwod after all). So y splat would be the ideal, the path the paladin decides to walk, his/her quest and the z splat would be the chivalric order he/she decides to join, if any. So the list would be:

X splat 1)
>>The Meek: you were helped in your hardest moment, you were saved by certain death or delivered of you greatest burden by someone that just tought was doing the right thing. Maybe he even sacrificed himself for you. Most people, while usually gratefull, aren't up to the task to start listening to the Music again after this kind of things. Maybe the circumstances distract them and deny them the Epiphany, maybe they're just not gratefull enought for some reason or another. You're not most people. The Silence started tempting you immediatelly after, with survivor's guilt or other ways, but you endured and saw throug it, to hear the Music. Today you still remember what happened, you're still gratefull and even if maybe you feel like you're not worthy of the second chance you've got you'll do your best to help, regardless of the worthyness of those you assist.
Power: you help out in the buisness of exalting the low and striking down the Great and arrogant that would oppress them. A Buff/Debuff thing based on the target's virtue and vice?
Weakspot: you get really antsy when you see ingratitude and arrogance and the temptations of the silence are at their strongest then. Needless to say in the typical nwod campaign in wich no good deed goes unpunished, this is harsh.

X-2
>>The Coward: You were there, trying to do the right thing; trying to summon up the balls to call child support for your neighbourn's daughter (he used to leash her with his belt at the slightest provocation and with audiple pleasure in his voice), to tell your best friend's parents he was doing eroine in secret and needed to be hauled kicking and screaming in rehab... Your choice. First the Silence tempted you with doubt (was it the right thing?) then with denial (it's not your buisness in any way, shape or form) then with fear of what would have happened. Maybe you didn't do it, maybe you half assedly tried at the Last minute, maybe you just couldn't do enought of a difference. The Silence came victoriously back to you and you would have lost your chance for the Music, hadn't another circumstance presented itself, similar to the first. This time, you managed it just right, you refused to yield and you ran right throug the silence. Your Epiphany came soon after. You learned that the only thing the Silence needs is for you to do nothing, let it work and enshroud the world in enthropy. No More.
Power: you can sense right and wrong, you can reach the Music to give others the strenght to do the right thing and the Music gives you the strenght to undo the wrong ones.
Weakspot: doubt remains your Achille's heel.

x-3
>>the Fool: you tought you knew it all, you tought you were Smart. Well tough luck! Here came the moment you were flatly wrong. Your error costed a lot, to you, to others, to your loved ones. But most importantly it hit you right where it hurted the most, your self perception. You weren't Smart, you weren't clever, you were just a Fool. This the Silence told you, with it's words that are non-sounds exactly complemenary to the words we know. You tried hard and harder trying to prove it wrong, and failed. It was the Music that, trough a coincidence or another, Made you understand that you might be a fool, but it doesn't matter. It'll all be worth it in the end, and the Music "loves" genius and Fool alike
Power: knowing only you ultimatelly don't know anything, you listen to the Music, and repeat what you hear, what you think you understand: it's apparently Prophecy, or so the others tell you. You think they shouldn't listen so intently to the rambling of a fool, but whatever suits them.
Weakspot: You still think you're really Smart sometimes. Or so the Silence tells you, trying to make you stop listening to the Music...

X~4
>>the Wiked one. You've done a lot you're not proud of. A whole lot. Once you basically only head the Voice of Silence, in your head, in your toughts; gently guiding you to self distruction and crime. Just as planned. As many before you, you tried to leave it all behind one day, when you became tired of trying to justify your actions to yourself every morning in front of the mirror. Comes out, it's not so easy, and the Silence wasn't done with you yet. You paid dearly your decision and you got tempted like never before, afterwards. Just when you tought you were done for, that would have been your life till the very end, something or someone lent you the strenght to try again, step after step. At the end of your journey, the Music was waiting. You learned that it's something grand and wonderfull, inside of everything and yet beyond. But it's manifestations are frail, the time and effort required to let go of something or destroy it, is an order of magnitude lesser than the effort required to build something good and worthwile. Evil and Silence are easy. Good and Music are hard and need to be protected.
Power: you work hard every day to build worthwile things and protect them: you protect people from harm, workers from unemployment, children from predators and bad influences. And work to build a better world.
Weakspot: the Silence wants your surrender, your sloth and your envy:sloth to let it all go, envy to use you to destroy worthwile things.

>>21870094

I would say the music is more rooted in humanity itself than being seperate from it. It's us. All of us.
We're the only things in this universe who can understand good and evil from a genuine standpoint. To everyone else its either abstract or irrelevant or they're just not capable.

The music is humanity and their ability to discern good from evil and choose. It is that inner voice of all of us that sings each day no matter what we do to try and silence it. It sings a tale of a better world of glory and the brave of a stainless steel road stretching off into the sky.

X5
>> the Shunned. You tought you were special; and sure you were ,told you the Silence, continously distracting you from the more sensible part of your brain. Turns out you were so special everyone turned their back to you(envy, obviously, of course you weren't some kind of insufferable little asshole!) and in the end you left behind yourself a trail of failures that weren't your fault and ex friends that obviously weren't true friends to begin with and lovers that couldn't give you what you really needed. In the end you realized how much your fault it all was, and the Silence allmost got you. But then you found someone or something really special, in a way you never could have been. And this let you hear the Music.
Power: in your realization that everyone is both normal and special, that everyone is the Music, you can show people what to do to reach new eights, you can inspire and warn and show them what the really important things are.
Weakspot: the Silence wants you "special" damn it!

>>21871395
Well yeah. You know Dan Simmons, the Hyperion series? Well to me the Music is the final intelligence, basically.
The Silence is merelly the lack of sound, of the Music.

Some feedback Plz?

>>21871502

Nah I don't really think that suits it. I mean where do you want this to go? That good only comes from an external source and man ultimately is an evil flawed beast?
Or do you want it to be that man is ultimately good and just?

>>21871519
The second: the final intelligence is born from man after all (time paradox ahoy!)

>>21871552

So why have it even be seperate from us?
It is us

>>21870118
>The vimes
What you did there.
I see it.
And I like it.

Another thing worthy of consideration is the inevitable organisation of groups of Paladins.
Think knightly orders some of which have been around since long before the term knight was even thought up. Attaching themselves to whatever group best serves their purpose and serving as their chamber militant.

Ancient armies rooted in ancient tradition often using old technology thats been adapted to cater to the specific needs of Paladins.
Rarely do these armies march to war but when they do by whatever god dares exist it is quite the sight.

Think the Templars from the Secret World

Don't tell me this has died already
Cos that would suck

>>21871640
Exactly, it's not external: it's just both immanent (so it's me, you, everything and everyone, the anima mundi and thus the spirit of humanity) and trascendent (makes up something that trascends the sum of it's parts, something wonderfull you can strive towards). Pic unrelated, it's my cat, she's being adorable and i wanted to share.

>>21871739
Yup! Exactly what i had in mind for z splat (the "bloodlines"). Verbatim!

>>21871923
2lawfulgood4me

>>21871923
I'm back from dinner, 5 minutes and i'll post something on the Quests and on the orders (y and z splats respectivelly). People, do you like my design phylosophy for the Epiphanies? It basically goes 1- you're a normal human with character flaws like anyone. 2- the Silence gets an hold on them 3- you defeat it some way and listen to the Music of the world.

>>21872023

Remember they can't all be like this. You've got to have groups who have fallen too deep into one ideology or groups way of thinking. Like Catholic Enforcers or something.

Along with smaller more modern groups who work on their own or with the backing of corporate entities. While the older groups work the backrooms of the halls of power for their backing and enjoy the largest armies of paladins to call upon.

For an idea what these old group armies would look like on the march. Look at Hellsing Ultimates nazi invasion of London. From the standpoint of the Nazis just without all the senseless murder. As in how they fight and deploy.

>>21872153
Are you some kind of telepath? No irony whatsoever.

>>21872183

No I'm just a decent writer and there's only so many ways that you could take this without being derptarded.

>>21870118
>And for the Token evil branches:
> >Those who hear the call of the Silence, but refuse to see the good in mankind along side the Evil, becoming apathetic and Everything is pointless... ..., instead of just cutting out the Bad.

Is it hatred or willingness to help in some cases?
They see that man suffers, wilts and is crushed by the immense struggles of his otherwise meaningless and fruitless existence.
They, in ceasing this tragedy, are out to help them. They may create more of these feelings and phenomena in mankind, but only whilst pursuing their goal of ending all existence that only merits pain. They are on a mission, not a mindless rampage of Saturday Cartoon Villainy.

Heh on the subject of Hellsing Ultimate there's a brief speech in the English dub that's perfect for a Paladin.
When dealing with Vampires anyways.

Surrender?
Run and hide?
Oh yes and give up. I should give up.
That is what, someone like you would say to do.
Cowards who could not bear the weight of their own humanity. You pathetic monsters disgust me!
Come on! Let's have it.

I can see vampires being one of the main things Paladins hate.

>>21872078
Palafag here (The dude who wrote the original writefagging)
Loving it. Though I get the feeling the orders should be more seperate, if they're organized, there's a feeling of a unified force, rather than 'Alone, we rage against the dying of the light'.
Then again that could be justified Dredd style, 1 Paladin per 10,000 people in the best of places.

>>21872243
That's more lawful stupid than anything.

>>21872253

Well that's just it the orders exist on every level of organisation. You have small groups who make up the majority of them. You know the handful of paladins that could constitute a player party.

All the way up every rank of size to the ancient orders who have existed for thousands of years.

>>21872322

Isn't that essentially what we're going for?

>>21872363
Apparently yes.
Needs more selfdestructive-ness

>>21872388

Staring down a vampire horde is plenty self destructive.

>>21872397
That's a good start!

When this actually gets some rules. I will definitely run a game of this and try to subvert it as much as possible just to see how good it is.

Building on what was mentioned earlier about vampires. It would be interesting to think about how they'd interact with other groups in the nWoD/oWoD settings. Being only familiar with nWoD I can only speculate on that front.

I can imagine vampires being 100% hated. The music silenced in them by their vampiric nature and the fact that they prey on humans making them pretty much the natural enemy number 1.
Mages? Not sure. Guess it would depend on the mage. Is their connection to the superluminal world human or does it change them into something non-human? Does it drown out the music or augment it?
Werewolves? Dunno don't know enough about em.
Prometheans? Now thats an interesting one since their quest is to become human, an admirable goal to hear the music. But at the same time they corrupt everything they touch until they achieve that goal.
The rest? Fuck if I know.

Well; might as well contribute a little fluff writing or something

"It is said in most circles, that to be one of the Singing Swords, is to stare into the pit of eternity; and see only hope that it has a bottom. To see into the Darkness and see the potential for light where there is none. To chase dreams, and wraiths and only plant hope and harvest failure.
Usually these comments are said by their detractors, though sometimes, even allies, of the Errants have admitted that they cannot comprehend, what drives those they walk along side to such dizzying heights, such manic behaviour in the face of evil; such suicidal bravery, in the face of impossible odds.
Most of the Quioxian, when asked about it, have been surprisingly uneloquent. They are not tight lipped about it; and as far as I have seen there is no taboo in talking about their Inspiration.
But they have mostly all said the same thing.
'To see the world as we do, you must hear the Music, you must see what we have seen; we can't explain it to a non-Paladin.'
The most Eloquent answer I recieved, came from a member of the Order of the bladed pen, writers, who write tales that inspire generations, the head of their order, a man who was never short for words, after having had nearly 10 months to think on it described it as such:
'To be a Paladin is to gaze into the Abyss; and see not the blackness within...but the rest of the world that isn't the Abyss, surrounding it, larger, better, more important than the darkness. It is to see a dream and see in it that one day, it might be a reality; and it is to see the darkness...and know that just as darkness, is the absence of light...so is light, the illumination of dark places.'
To hear him speak, at that time in that place; for just a moment, it seemed the rest of the world dwelt too much on death and sorrow, and that the Paladins were the only sane amongst us.'

-Ser Alspihen

I love this setting and everything in it and it may even actually get me excited to play a World of Darkness game.

It's also nice to see paladins who aren't strictly Lawful Stupid. This is how all paladins should be; there to give aid to the helpless, hope to the forlorn and the downtrodden, kindness to the destitute, protection to the weak and retribution to the evil.

Are you/we really going for a, "We are alone and we're doomed, but we'll do as much good as we can, while we can," or, by organising and playing the same game of manipulation and power the other WoD factions are, actually being as potent a force as the vampires, mages, changelings, or any other of the major players in the WoD, only for the good of all, rather than the few?

>>21872322
How's it lawful stupid? Quite a few vampires are actually really monstrous people, just holding onto their humanity through being 'civilized about things'.
>>21872363
Why are you going for lawful stupid?
>>21872388
Why self-destructiveness..?

Guys..?

>>21872623
Well: Vampires are an interesting one, since they gave up their humanity, they're the Antithesis of what a Paladin is; but in some ways, all they are are creatures who have been damaged by the silence, the same as a wounded innocent, in most cases. So that'd be a grey area, they're victims of their own nature. But yeah, evil ones'd get shanked.
Werewolves are linked with the spirits, creatures of madness and passion, which are other fundamental human emotions; hell, spirits are made of ideas.
Promethians, good point.
Mages, good point. Maybe there could be a conflict of interests there, or the opposite, either the Abyss silences the humdrum of magic that once drowned out the Music...or it amplifies it, giving a reason for Mage-Paladin Combo teams. Mages breaking reality over their knee, Paladins firmly grounded in a different mind set.
Hunters would be interesting...and Slashers more so.

>>21872750
Alone and Forsaken could be fun. But maybe there are ancient orders.

Or one better; there /are/ ancient orders...but most the members are long dead; and their collective ideaology and wisdom comes to new members naturally, maybe through dreams, that kind of thing, meaning you can have the whole 'ANCIENT CONSPIRACY' while still keeping the numbers low, with 99% of living members of any 'order' being the descendants of long dead Errants.

And nah, they're going to be good, brave and unyielding I guess, but not Lawful stupid. Just knowing they arn't going to win, and yet still trying.

>>21872750

Well I would say in regards to the orders thing it can be both. The majority of paladins are alone in the fight. The way most of them first hear the music means all of them spend at least some time fighting the fight alone and the majority will always fight alone.

At the same time though you have those who have organised. Never numbering more than a few hundred in the case of the ancient massive orders. But the majority of orders are usually less than 50.

See you have to account for player parties. And provide options for story structure.

>>21872766
I can see hunters being treated warily by paladins... They're fighting the darkness of the world, but they're so close to furthering the cause of Silence just through their more ruthless methods. A paladin protects first and smites second. A hunter's only goal is that their prey dies. I can see paladins being wary allies of them, always watching for if they go too far, waiting to either guide them back onto the path of good, or to put an end to their heedless or outright malevolent actions... Forever.

>>21872815
I really like this. Maybe Palafag's idea has its merit too... Here's an idea!

Some ancient orders have an old secret... When they die, through ancient rites, their voices join the music. Future generations of paladin seers, when meditating and listening to the music, can sometimes hear their teachings. Or when they cannot, they study ancient writings, teachings and philosophies.

Here's another idea... Some ancient orders may not have more than, say, 50-100 'true' paladins, but they could have aspirants, pages, or squires, people who heed the paladins' teachings and hope some day to hear the music by learning from and serving them. That'd be another way to get the kind of followers and aides that vampires and the like have.

>>21872951

Aye that makes sense. The ancient orders have a load of people who are "family" but not paladins who provide the administrative, financial and background aide along with some light military backup. But the core of the organisation is a hundred or so paladins most of whom aren't "family".
You'd have the inevitable friction between the two. The paladins who hear the music and the norms who don't. The normal humans using the order to further their own ends and the paladins who hate them for it.

>>21872183
Will probably use the tier system from hunter for the groups to represent the different kinds of benefits you get from bigger and smaller groups. No tier 4 bullshit thoug if you know what i mean.

Quests, or What you decide to do with your Epiphany.

Quest 1- the quest for betterment.
You saw it in your visions, you heard it in the music. The world can be a better place, man can be shown a better way of living, one that'll do away with the Silence. You know this is mere utopia: the Silence allways finds a way to even the playing field, and the Music often just fights to mantain what it has, just to keep the world to implode under the weight of the no-sound. Yet you try anyway: maybe it's impossible to create the perfect society, and Man will allways be plagued by the evils of society that keep it from hearing the Music. But you fight for the poor and the downtrodden, for the cop that does his job amidst corruption, for the idealist lawier and the tired costruction worker.
Benefits: various social prosaic benefits (you pay less contacts and allies Etc) you also get some social powers based on the discovery and eradication of corruption and injustice inside of human social constructs and on bolstering social consciousness among the people, buffing them in various ways as long as they work together.

Paladins can also get quite absurd with their weaponry. Your typical loner paladin will have fairly mundane weapons like swords, guns and the like. Which thanks to being wielded by Paladins are a lot more potent. Imagine one who really puts his back and power into it cleaving a tank in twain with a single swipe of a blade.
But some of them make or get hold of more exotic weapons that are augmented by their abilities. Imagine a paladin dual wielding anti-tank rifles when he goes werewolf hunting.

Ultimately a lot of Paladin abilities and such would be more "rule of cool" than you usually find in WoD

It is pretty good so far but it is missing something core to it.
What if some of the active Celesties were trying to bring the Paladins back out of the world. Basically a these god-like entities has a notion that the world must be destroyed by its own sins before it can be rebuilt and these Paladins are getting in the way.
So, to much use of their power ares the powers that be and they are taken to "paradise." This could be the reason why Paladins only function in small organizations(groups of 5) most of the time. Meeting with the order (local prescint) a few times a month at most.

>>21873040

I can see that being their equivalent to paradox and the like. The more they use their abilities in a single place the more likely they are to be temporarily drawn into paradise, Although there'd have to be ways to counteract/mitigate it available to groups of paladins

>>21873036
That's more 'Exalted' than 'World of Darkness'. But I would play this. So much.

Actually, this whole idea is just so perfect for me, it's unreal. I mean REALLY unreal; it's like the whole system was designed to appeal to me.

>>21872987
I envisioned it more as being disciples, but I guess even paladins needs the support network!

>>21873067
Or the more Paladins are together; the more evil they draw into once place, acting as a Magnet for it; so Paladins usually opt to work alone, at greater risk to themselves, to avoid bringing tragedy down on those who exist in proximity to them.
And of course, the more you use your power, the more out of control it gets and the more the fire consumes them from within. Thus explaining why a lone Paladin could totally just march the fuck into the lair of an Elder Vampire, sword swinging, Bullet proof and bring the Wrath of GOD and save a dozen people.
But who'd be there to save the next group of Victims, or the next innocent person who you could have saved when the fire consumes you.

>>21873131

That's how I personally picture it. The Paladins are absurdly out of place in World of Darkness and that's part of the point of them. Everyone else is essentially "we're fucked. Humanity is nothing but cattle". But the Paladins are all "FUCK YOU! This middle finger is going right up your arse! Humanity rocks! I HAVE HOPE AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP ME AHAHAHAHAHA!"

A well played Paladin is the exact opposite of what the typical vamp the masquerade player would play. Where the vamp is all brooding and whiney the paladin is filled with glorious purpose and happy

>Or the more Paladins are together; the more evil they draw into once place

Brilliant. That's a perfectly eloquent solution for why they tend to work alone. They could rage against the dying light together.
But it'd mean more people getting hurt in the process thus totally defeating their own purpose. So they put themselves at greater risk to avoid the same on others.

>>21873151
I like this idea better, I think. The Music and the mysterious source of it (The Singer?) are a force for good and want the paladins to save the world, but the mortal form just wasn't made to handle that awesome power and the more it is used, the more it rips at a paladin's life-essence, the resonance of the music literally pulling them apart with its glory. They have to rest and carefully wind-down every so often, just to stop it pulling them apart.

Large numbers of paladins attracting evil works too. The closer to the light, the greater the shadow and all that. It's interesting too; vampires hunt in cities in large numbers because it's a big food store to them. Paladins gather in large numbers to fight the high concentration of their foes, the prince calls for more vampires to fight back against these "short-sighted, simple-minded, would-be do-gooders," and it just escalates, until BOTH have to put a cap on it to prevent the humans from finding out what's going on behind their backs. Some call it fate, others call it logic, but none can argue that it happens.

> Capcha: Blessb songs
Blessb songs indeed, capcha.

>>21873151

This yes perfect. On both accounts. The evil magnet effect doesn't really kick in until you've got groups of like three or above thus leaving room for player parties.
And the fire gives you the option to boost your abilities massively but harm yourself in the process.

>>21873234
That's one way to scale a party's difficulty. Then one day, all the paladins in the world convene in one place.

Be back in a few, people here need me only when i'm writefagging. It's uncanny. Just wanted to say you people are awesome and writing the coolest shit.

>>21873270
Then shall be the final battle! To be honest, it'll probably be the day everything else goes to shit; the antedeluvians wake up, the fae break through, the mages work the ultimates 'fuck your everything' spell... And the paladins are there to say, "No. You've come this far, but no further. If you want the world, you come through this eternal brotherhood and sisterhood; mankind's guides and guardians - The paladins!"

>>21873199
That settles it. Next WoD game... I'm asking the GM to make it a paladin game.

>>21873270

Well you can have backstory of massive crusades that once occurred long ago. A vampire empire crushed beneath the boots of a thousand paladins from all across the world.
Robber barons whose hired armies were torn asunder by a crusade of knights who appeared as if out of nowhere and vanished just as quickly.
A whole forest burnt to the ground by the combined forces of many orders to destroy a great evil that had taken root there.

Make them rare things but describe the abilities of the paladins as being way beyond what is normal for even a buffed up paladin. When they gather in massive numbers their connection to the music synergises making them all faster, stronger and more powerful. They all bask in the light given off by their comrades.

>>21873374

If its a mixed WoD game a paladin would be perfect to throw into the group.
"I am brooding the broodening the blood luster. Vampire of the brooding line"
"I am fuckreality the mage I fuck reality haha paradox and fuck you sleepers"
"I am ripandtear the werewolf. I'm just a cunt"
"I AM KNIGHT MOTHERFUCKER THE MOTHERFUCKING PALADIN! Who's up for some jolly cooperation and fighting evil?"

>>21873386

We are talking running like the wind, walking on walls, absurd agility, super strength and more. And thats before they start setting themselves ablaze.
Large numbers of paladins gather only in a time of great peril to mankind or when a great evil arises. But when they do it is as if night becomes day for just a brief time. A place where no shadow can form. A thousand suns burning bright scorching away every last scrap of darkness.
These places are forever changed by it. As if the evil they burnt away can never quite take root as strongly again. The grass grows greener and more vibrant, the local widlife is healthier and friendlier, the air fresh and crisp, streams run clear and people feel at peace in these places which once were all but consumed by darkness.

Quest2

The Quest of Cleansing
Once you heard the Music, nothing could ever be the same again. It was like someone marked your brain and heart with fire, it was like being shown what it is to really live. And compared to that, you found your previous life... Wanting. Like the hopefull knights on the quest of betterment, you too have a grand vision of the world and of the future. But while they focus on positive development and would guide man to utopia, you're rather more fond of the idea of eliminating the parts of the world in wich the corruption of the Silence is more evident first. Different quest to different knights after all. yours is to cleanse the world, fight the unwinnable battle and make the Music resound where there only was Silence.
Benefits: beyond the obvious ubersmiting abilities, you possess the power to physically repell the Silence from a place or a person, basically exorcising it/him.

>>21873661
Or it allows them to pool their energy.
Such crusades are rare because thousands of Paladins die in each and every one, as those who are most dedicated totally immerse themselves in the Fire and the Music, becoming as the Dancing of flickering flames, nothing but armour and blade and will power, driving onwards into the enemy ranks. Each one able to kill hundreds at least, unstoppable avatars of the human soul.
An entire army, ablaze with the power of their past deeds. Smouldering into dust over time, only lasting as long as their strength of will and passions can sustain them.

Which then leaves the world without a full Cohort of Paladins for hundreds of years to come; which is very bad news for the world on all accounts.

Also on the list of origins, as a more obscure way of coming to the music: Lamenters.
Have you ever heard a song so sad that it was beautiful, that made you cry when you really needed to.
That's what the music did for the Lamenters, it found them at their worst, in the deepest depths of Sorrow, caused by their love; maybe a close family member died; or something terrible happened to a close friend. The Silence filled them for a moment, driving them to ask what the point of it all was.
And the Music answered that Question for them.

>>21874090

Yeah sounds good. Speaks to the core idea of them burning alive to purge the darkness.

Also gonna do some writefaggotry in a bit. But dialogue has always been my weakness I warny ou

We really need to get some rules set down though

>>21873428
Aaand my sides just achieved orbit... Man I'm in a good mood tonight!

Okay, any other rules we need to hash out at all? I'm no-where near familiar enough with WoD to plan this, but I'd be happy to help playtest!

Also: Vampires, particularly the older and more dickish ones would HATE paladins. I mean REALLY hate them. Vampires are repelled by strong faith, usually in a holy symbol, but sometimes by other things (once heard of a businessman repelling a vampire with a credit card). Paladins are WALKING BASTIONS of faith in humanity! If they so chose, they could make vampires recoil from their very presence! Though tbh, for balance reasons, that'd probably require burning.

>>21874203

I can see them making the bottom feeders of the vampire race recoil. But maybe not the stronger ones. Or the other way around maybe? The more inhuman a vampire becomes the more they react to the paladins light?

Anyways we need to decide if it'll be set up for NWOD or OWOD. I only know NWOD really

>>21874090
Even smaller-scale crusades, of maybe a few score paladins, leave them desperately drained and weakened for some time afterwards. Cared for in the halls of their order, they lay abed for weeks, even months, recovering their strength... But until the day they die, they each carry a conviction that much stronger, a smile never far from their face: They have seen the light and glory of what paladins can achieve together, as well as apart. A glimpse of that inferno, that pyre of hope; the merest memory of that glorious symphony of dozens of blades and voices raised as one, exalting the hope of humanity, leaves those that behold it forever changed, forever that much more assured that there IS a dawn beyond even the darkest nights.

>>21874090
This is my character's origin. I'm sorry, but it just HAS to be. It's just too damn perfect.

>>21873661
Where would be such places though? They'd have to be the holiest sites on earth... Off-hand... Jerusalem, Arlington Cemetery... From personal experience, I'll say Glastonbury Tor; that place just had something about it...

>>21874218
The humanity score of a vampire is not necessarily linked to it's age and the power of it's blood. I can see them repelling vampires of low humanity and hight blood potency but having problems with the opposite

Quest 3 the quest to Trascendance.
The previous 2 Quests focus on society, on the world. You are humbler but not much: you focus on people, single persons one by one. And yourself. Your understanding of the Music is flaved, you realize, beacouse you're human and thus limited. But you are also the Music itself, and so is everyone. So You've taken on yourself the herculean mantle of the Teacher: your quest is to teach everyone, a person at a time if necessary, to live more in accordance with the song. On the personal level you strive towards understanding it fully and lose any percieved separation between "you" and It. Basically this is the quest Buddha would have embarked on, was he a paladin (unconfirmed but not impossible).
Benefits: you can eat people sins with your mere presence helping them against morality loss. You also become more and more identified with the Music obtaining bizarre supernatural gifts like bilocation and astral travel.

>>21874291

Maybe holy places. But I would say they're places you rarely find people. Look to Englands least developed rural areas, the mountains of Wales. There's a peace and natural beauty in those places that men seem loath to sully.

I've got to say, I love the Quiotix angle on these guys.
Every other supernatural in the world thinks they're totally bubblefuck insane, no mage has ever found any proof the light exists beyond their powers, Hunters think they're a sort of Ur-Slasher, Vampires see them as Suicidal Moths, rushing into the light of their own death.
Meanwhile, the Paladins think everyone else is fuckin' crazy for not seeing what they can see, like the first creature to ever develop eyes.

It was another dark and foggy night in London. The characteristic thick London fog you so rarely saw these days blanketing the streets but barely hiding the bright garish lights illuminating one building.
A building observed by six figures atop a nearby rooftop.
"There she is ladies and gentlemen! The Bloodbath. Just your typical vampire night club where the bottom feeders of their kind go to eat and hide when the sun comes up."
The leader a middle aged man already growing grey in the beard waved his sword around in the clubs general direction punctuating his words with the odd jab.

"Now the majority of them are going to be your typical trash. Bottom feeders who won't put up any fight but there's going to be some big fish tonight along with all the little fish they cart around with them."
He thrust the sword towards a small woman sat nearby cradling a gun easily twice her size.
"Claire you go in from above and raise hell. I am talking massive property damage. Put that cannon to work. Charles you watch her back."
An unkempt man carrying a sword and shield grunted in acknowledgement and moved over to his young comrade.
"Now remember people. We go in hard and fast. We're looking at around fifty bottom feeders. Two big fish and fuck knows how many little fish they dragged along to wait on them. Rend them asunder before they even know whats going on. Anthony you take the front door and deal with the trash while helping the people get out. Me and the squire will go in through the third floor windows."

A young girl with a sword who seemed more interested in her feet looks up.
"Wait. The third floor windows? How are we going to do that?!"
The older man turned to look at her with a look that can be best summed up as: Do I even need to answer that?
"Why we will jump of course."

Would paladins have problems with:
-high humanity vampires? (probably yes, at least some animosity?)
-werewolves? (i think they'd be neutral to each other?)
-mages? (could go either way, really, mostly mages would be too crazy from paladin's standpoint)
-changelings? (neutral to good relations?)
-prometheans? (maybe the only people in the world who kinda understands them? I don't see much ground for animosity aside from Disquiet.)
-geists? (i dunno, probably okay to good relations)
-hunters? (naivety vs cynicism?)

>>21874403
Well, thats the interesting bit--I don't think paladins would have a problem with *anyone* based just on their supernatural affiliation, as much as they only have a problem with anyone who spreads the Silence and cannot be made to see reason.

>>21874431
Yes, a lot of these affilations are good to neutral ones. Though personally i like the idea of paladins broing it up with prometheans.

Quest 4 the quest for mercy.
Vampires may be scum, a cancer in the world, but most didn't decide to become like this. Werewolves might be a bloodline of insane murder machines, but in their own strange way they seem to perceive the song, even if their predatory nature colors their perception. Mages are hubristic assholes, but would have much to teach mankind if their priorities were set straight. Changelings and prometheans are just tragic figures deserving help, and the sineaters? Well they're just lovable assholes that sure can organize a fucking party. And if such things can be said of them what about humans? Is there even an irredeemable one?
You chose the path of peace and diplomacy, you chose the path that'll probably lead to a Chav gutting you alive in a park one night, or to a pack of werewolves eating you raw for insulting their traditions in some trivial way, and Let's not even start on what vampires will do to you. Yeah, WILL. It's still worth it thoug, for a chance to let them hear the Music.
Benefits: you've got various social bonuses and a talent for healing and confort the unfortunates.

>>21874090
Lamenters are fucking cool. Straight to the point. Let's add them to the origins and damn the 5X5 splats tradition. Anyone has other ideas?

So, a thought just came to me, in the form of a mind picture.
A guy in part-chain mail, part riot-gear, carrying a sword and an old police riot shield, with some of the words painted over and new letters put in place, spelling 'PaLadin'
I would draw it myself, but I always sucked at art.

>>21874403
Surprisingly, I could see them getting on with moderate werewolves, even seeing them as Kin.
Werewolves are made wild by their passions, Paladins are made focused by theirs.

I can imagine they wouldn't have a bias against anyone based on what they are, only who they are.
But at the cost of everyone seeing them as ball sack slapping mad.

>>21874400

"Jump? You can't be serious."
The old paladin patted his squire on the head
"I am very serious poppet you know that. Now come on its not that hard. Or would you like me to carry you like some damsel in distress?"
The rest of the group couldn't help but laugh as they got ready to make their move. A large man wielding a massive hammer literally walking off the edge of the roof and vanishing from sight while the other two leapt across the street to the roof of the club. The last member of the group. A wiry little man with a rifle calmly settling into a good oversight spot.

"No I can do it. Can't be that hard..."
"Great! Now jump!"
With that he leaps and the girl follows. The light within her burning lending her muscles strength to propel her across the street, the music singing in her ears drowning out the constant background sound of nighttime London.
It ends abruptly with a crash. Glass shatters as she flies through the window spraying a nearby man with shards of glass, they scream and recoil from this sudden unprovoked assault clutching a bleeding arm.

>>21874504

In an instant she sees everything. How this man came to be here. His youth in an abusive home, his father left him when he was but a boy. His mother saw him only as a burden, bringing home a string of men most of whom ignored him, which he was grateful for. Others did things to him. Horrible things. A sad day when sexual abuse is the tamest thing that happens to you and this boy had many days far worse. He left home, joined gangs and before long by chance found himself in the employ of some minor vampire as an expendable pawn. He killed, he raped, he murdered and more. Eventually the vampire turned him into one of his kind forever snuffing out that little piece of him that had always questioning why he did what did.

And with a swipe of a blade separating his head from his body. His painful existence was over.
The young Squire didn't even realise at first that it was her arm that swung the killing blow.
Would it always be this easy? It had been so far. She'd killed before and once again yet felt no remorse. Just...not joy. But purpose. Something that lifted her spirits despite the darkness she saw all around her as though she were a torch just briefly scaring away the shadows.

>>21874403
Maybe on the Promethian side, there is a huge conflict.
Because the Music wants to help Prommies, but being human, it can't understand them. So rather than hate, you end up with a kind of fucked up hate-love situation, where the Paladin is driven to help them, even as Disquiet tries to break them. The Paladin suffers, the Prom gains a friend and advisor in humanity.
Even if it slowly drives the Paladin mad, most will choose to keep going and try to save these poor, wretches.

>>21874515
You sir are a gentleman and a scholar. Masterpiece.

I can see this happening, lotsa good ideas being put together here. Too bad this is seemingly intended for nWoD, which I have not the slightest interest in. Still, keep up the good work. Reads really great so far. would Download/10

>>21874515

The young Squire turned to see the old paladin had dispatched two others. Their bodies slowly crumbling to dust.
"Come on poppet they can't be far now"
There was a loud crash from below followed by screams. Then the sounds of cannonfire from above. The others had set about their work.
The old paladin started running.
"I said come on! We don't have all night!"
The squire followed, a sense of purpose giving her normally sluggish legs speed. Before she heard the song she'd never ran this much. Never had reason to.

Downstairs a huge brute of a man approached the front door. Two bouncers eyeing him up. The faint glint of elongated teeth clear to his experienced eye.
"Hey no entry it's a private party tonight."
The man hefted his hammer.
"Oh but I'm on the list."
The bouncer checked his sheet.
"Yeah? Well you got the look I guess. Whats the name?"
"Hammer to your face"
"Wha-"
The vampires didn't even have time to react. The man swinging his huge hammer with a speed impossible to any ordinary man taking off both their heads and sending them flying down the street. He breathed deeply feeling the inferno within him picking up as he kicked the huge reinforced door off its hinges sending it flying into a group of guards crushing them beneath its weight.
"Knock. Knock."

>>21873428
>>21873199
That's what I fucking love about this splat. The other WoD seem to focus on things becoming gradually more darker and grim as characters descend into savagery, lunacy, inhumanity...

But not in Paladin. In Paladin, you've witnessed the vastness of human suffering through the Silence and experienced the nadir of despair. And then you saw something that reignited the hope within you, picked yourself up and got down to business fighting evil.

>>21874583

Up on the roof the young girl gives her somewhat absurd weapon one last check. On the side is written "TEMPLE ARMS ANTI-FREAK CANNON"
Her comrade with his much simpler sword and shield turned to examine it as she readied the weapon.
"You know you still haven't said where you got this thing."
The girl grins as she points the weapon downwards, her eyes glowing with an inner fire as she carefully aims at something unseen.
"The privileges of membership my friend. Now get ready. I'm going to take that by the bar first. He's got a thing for wearing other peoples faces as masks it seems."

There is a resounding boom as the weapon fires.

Below at the bar two vampires are talking over O negative cocktails.
"Ah yes this one. A hunter actually. Convinced he was some big shot vampire hunter when really he'd only ever tracked the scum who've just been turned. He barely put up a fight so I made a game of it. Breaking his limbs off and eating them before him. In the end I tore off his face while he still brea-"
The vampires head and upper torso vanish in an explosion of gore spraying the confused drinking companion and bartender with blood and meat.
The bartender quickly follows with the bar itself being blasted to pieces by a fusillade of heavy weapons fire.
The people on the dance floor scream and run for the exit as a man wielding a hammer stomps into the main room coated with blood not his own and lays into seemingly random members of the crowd his senses picking out those who have earnt themselves death.

Archived motherfuckers. Enjoy.

>>21874651

Together the young squire and old paladin tore through vampire after vampire. The squire was in tears by this point her mind filled with every manner of sin imaginable. Every cide you care to name playing out in her head as she witnessed not only the crimes that these people had committed but the ones that led them to be here tonight before her blade. Each of them as much a victim as they were a villain.

Her teacher though, the old paladin remained as stoic as ever save for an almost insane grin on his face. He was alive! Few ever knew such joy, such happiness, such unashamed and unabashed hope! There was going to be a tomorrow because tonight they had fought for it.
As she passed a mirror she briefly caught a glimpse of herself. Coated in vampire blood, tears streaming down her face...but her face split in half by a shit eating grin that mirrored the old paladins. On some level it scared her.

They came to a door. Guarded by two vampires clearly a cut above the usual trash, dressed in suits wielding blades of their own they stepped forward to meet the Paladins. Maybe convinced they faced nothing more than mere hunters who got lucky. Or maybe mages.
Oh how wrong they were.
Those two burning bonfires charging at them down the corridor, their inner light exploding into the world around them banishing any shadow that dared stand before it, the vampires could not even look at them and were cut down before they even knew what had happened.

With a crash they were through the door. An elder vampire sat on a chair facing some flunky of his. He stood, his face contorted with inhuman rage.
"YOU AGAIN!"
The old Paladin didn't even stop, barreling forward
"SURPRISE COCKFACE!

Do Paladins have morality scores like, say, Vampires have Humanity? If so, what happens to a Paladin when his Hope score or whatever gets too low? Does he fall and turn into something evil, or does he just lose his connection with the Music? Is it permanent, or can they make a comeback from it?

>>21874553
Well, owod is just too crowded for this... We could still develop it for both settings just disregarding owod's metaplot...

Quest 5 the Quest to Martyrdom.
You watch the other Paladins and you see greatness and purity, an unquenchable pure flame of Humanity that the world can't put off. You didn't feel you could be up to that, you were driven by the Music but in your Epiphany, you tought yourself somewhat unworty of all this. Also you could see most of their methods were flaved by their unwillingness to compromise on what they learned. Maybe you were an hunter before your Epiphany or maybe not but you decided to adopt a more pratical approach that would help the overall effectiveness of your Group: you'd be the one that compromised and performed the unsavory acts that might be necessary to perform when you're trying to change the world. Why? So the others don't have to, that's why. This makes you prime fallen paladin material obviously, but you're so devoted in the fire you can see in them, in everyone really, that you don't mind playing a losing game with the Silence every day, as long as they don't have to.
Benefits: you're shielded against the Silence and gifted in the arts of furtivity, investigation and others still that most Paladins won't Explore too much for fear of falling. You have knowledge people not as hardened as you aren't entrusted with by the Music.

>>21874753
Score: Height or Passion
In a lucifer metaphor Paladins who lose the way are called the Fallen.

>>21874747

Outside the lone remaining member of the group waits with his rifle. Not even firing a single shot tonight. Yet.
His chance was coming. A car had pulled up, a door in its side opened letting out a man in a suit who quickly surveyed the scene before turning back to the open car door...a door facing away from the shooter.

Bang.

The trigger is pulled. The powder combusts. The growing pressure in the chamber propels the bullet out of the barrel and into the air at speeds exceeding that of sound. Ordinarily a shooter would try to shoot through the window of the car but would fail thanks to it being reinforced, he could of course up the power behind the bullet to get around that but he wasn't called Trickshot Jim for nothing.

The guard's vampiric senses realised the bullet was heading his way. But his body wasn't fast enough. All he could do was watch as the bullet sailed past his head, circled around the back of him, went over his shoulder and into the head of the elder he was supposed to protect. Her head exploding in a shower of bone and brain.

"Boom. Headshot."

>>21874784

The old paladin keeps going, leaps over the chair in front him, over the table and right at the vampire who in a flash of light pulls his own blade and slashes.

The young squire clearly sees her teachers upper half separated from his lower half. Severed in two at the waist. The vampire seems satisfied with himself, grinning as if he's won.

However the old paladin isn't out yet and swings his sword right into the vampires face cutting his head clean off. Laughing all the way.

The minion is dispatched so quickly the Squire barely even notices herself doing it. She runs to her teachers side grabbing him hoping that she can save him from even a wound like this. Trying to set herself ablaze to bring him back...but the fire within him is gone. He's gone.

But he's got a grin on him like nothing you've ever seen.

>>21874784
Hey there

>>21874753
Yeah, personally i just assumed they do and get some additional slack against degeneration as long as they behave coherently to their splats, but get shat on swiftly and brutally if they don't. 0 morality (or heroism? Or faith?) would mean "fallen paladin lol" while you could temporanely or permanently lose your connection to the Music not acting on it for too much time and neglecting the Code your Epiphany and your Quest impose in you while not behaving like a psychopat (the realm of very low morality in wod). If you wallow in mediocrity instead of trying to better the world and Man, your Flame eventually dims, but if you get under the Silence's sway, you actually start to suck light away, like a black hole.

For an Order, how's this:
The Endless Armoury

You dashed the brains of the rapist in the alley with your fury. You burned the crack den that you dragged your sister out of. You spilled the blood of the executive getting sex from children all over his bedroom. The Music was a chorus of war-cries and death oaths to you. And The Armoury hears this two and gives you the instruments to sing back.

The other orders need you. They preach forgiveness and hope and you share it, although it might be hard to tell through all the blood on your hands. But some are beyond any sane redemption. Sometimes you have to amputate, when all the surgery in the world wouldn't cut out the cancer. That's when you come in. When the priest has heard all their confessions, it's time for the electric chair.

The other orders fear you, too. So many can be left in silence after yelling themselves hoarse. But you take a breath and take their lives too. What ever armour Evil decides to take, you will pierce it, with spear, with mace and with rifle. You will drown in blood, like each and every one of your brothers, but on your beaten and bloody corpses, Humanity will flee this dark island into the glorious dawn.

You are the solider, you are the sacrifice, you are the raging fire that will burn out the shit and filth encrusted in the streets. You are an Armourer. And you are armed.

feedback on the Quests or y splats people? Are they fine? I tried to use all the material of the original writefag upthread, what do you think?

>>21874851
*too goddamn.

>>21874805

She looks at her teacher. Catching faint flickers of the man he was through her mind. The youth fighting pointless wars in jungles and sandtraps. The dead friends, the shakes and worse brought on by the drugs they were given. The shattered dreams and lives he'd left behind.
How one day he had been walking through the bombed out ruins of yet another village and first hear it. That faint melody. The song that called to them all. How he just walked into the desert and to everyone he knew just vanished off the face of the Earth.

The years spent since fighting the darkness wherever it reared its head even having the privilege of fighting in a crusade once in his life. The memory of that great bonfire forever setting his soul ablaze at the mere thought of it. Of hundreds nay thousands saved in a single night of mayhem.

The squires companions found her there cradling his cold torso crying.
The hammerman being the first to speak up.
"Ah shit. The old man finally caught him but bought it...come on kid we gotta go before their backup arrives."

The young squire picked up her blade and stood.
"No. We fight them. We kill them! ALL OF THEM!"
They could all see, the girl was ready to set her body and soul aflame to fuel her teachers funeral pyre. To kill herself to wipe out every vampire in London in a single night.

>>21874870
I would, but I must sleep. I will read over this tomorrow/the next day!

Hadn't read that much of this thread. (Not OP)
Interesting enough it seems, and thus it will be bumped furiously.

>Disregard the pic, is moar about that guy redemption than paladin redemption.

>>21874890

She stepped forward her face twisted with rage. There was none of that joy in it now. Just anger.
The hammer hit her, only gently. Just enough to send her back into the wall with no injury.

"We can't go on a revenge boner here. We have to go. If you go and get yourself burnt to a crisp who's gonna help us protect London? Think of the longer war here girl, he taught you better than this."

The squire picked herself up, sobbing. Despite dealing so much death. Despite seeing such horrors against humanity this was the first time in a long time it had touched her personally. Not since her sister was killed as some fucking gangs fought a pointless turf war. She'd been nothing but an innocent bystander but they cut her down.
She'd sworn when she got this power that no one she cared about would be hurt again and here was the man she'd come to think of as her father dead at her feet. Smiling like it was all just a game and he'd be back on his feet in no time.

"Come on grab his body you guys. The squire too. We need to be gone now."

The rest of the paladins picked up what was left of their leader and comrade. The Squire following. Numb. Disconnected. They carried them all back to the rooftops of London and back to the old warehouse they'd been living in the past few months.
Not a word was said.

>>21874894
Pretty late for me too. Has this been archived?
>>21874890
Manly tears.

>>21874851
Solid, i'd say. Simple and to the point. Would cleanse the world with.

>>21874952

Back home. The team set about building a funeral barge for their fallen comrade. A pilfered rowboat being filled with wood, coal and doused with a few petrol tanks they'd found.

Meanwhile the remaining swordsman tried to pry his fallen comrades weapon from his hand.
"Man the guys got a hell of a grip on this thing. He ain't lettin go I can tell you that. Shame too it's a nice sword. Lot better than the pieces of sheet steel the rest of us have to make do with."
The hammerman is busy washing the blood off himself as he responds to his comrades complaints.
"Well doesn't matter. Probably better it go with him, it was his after all. Although where do you even find a real sword anymore?"

The swordsman gives up on the blade with a sigh. Joining his hammer wielding bro on the ragged old sofa for a beer.
"I know right? You can't find decent swords for love of money. Not that I have money. Fuckin cryin shame man. So what do we do about the Squire? She seems a bit...out of it. Don't think she'll stop listenin do you?"
"No she won't stop listening. Just shook up. She'll snap out of it. Till then don't worry about her. Guess I'll have to teach her from now on."
"Oh aye, teach her you say."
"Don't even joke about that man. Don't even joke."

The other two paladins return carrying the last of the wood for the pyre.
"Ok we got the last of it. We're ready to go boys, you did find that keg right?"

Hammerman lifts a large wooden ale keg with one hand.
"Right here."

"Alrighty then lets get this party started!"

Alright. Let me take a stab at this.
Basically, I think we need 5 archetypes and orders.
Orders is a fine title for our organizations.
Archetypes, maybe Callings or Devotions?

The Found: You were living your every day life, not a care in the world, but the Music found you. You listened. Now you try to make others hear it. (This should be our social class)
The Templar: You know the pain and fury of war battle and death. You nearly lost yourself to the Silence in it, but you heard the Music. Now, your fury fuels the light, and it burns from you. (Combat class)
The Monk: The Music has always been part of you. You peacefully and calmly let the light flood from you. Every Task brings the light closer to you. (Mental/Caster class)
The Dragoon: You serve the Music from the heart of the Silence. You seem like a candle to its servants, but to the Paladins you burn like a fire. Stealth and cunning will bring the music to all. (Obviously, our sneaky guy)
The Atoners: You were lost to the Silence once. Drugs. Murder. Rape. Abuse. Shoplifting. They helped fill the void until the Music filled you again. You now stand for all, ready to help those who need it to appease your past sins
(Not sure what these guys should focus on. Jack of all trades?)

>>21875020

The words seemed to shake the Squire back to reality she stood suddenly shocked.
"Party? You're going to celebrate his death?! WHAT KIND OF FRIENDS AND COMRADES ARE YOU?!"

The rest of the group facepalms as one. Hammerman being the first to speak as usual.
"We ain't celebrating his death you dolt. We're celebrating his life. He lived a good life. He heard the music, fought the darkness and died with a smile on his face and a fire in his heart. That's more than most of humanity get and we should all be grateful for that."

"But a party? A funeral should be about mourning their loss..."

"What's the point of mourning? It ain't gonna change anything. He lived, he fought the darkness of the world and died. He did great deeds and saved thousands maybe millions of peoples. That is worth celebrating and aspiring to."

The Squire despite seeming swayed at least to some extent can only stare dumbfounded as they lay the old paladins body atop the impromptu funeral barge and douse the whole thing with lighter fluid. They roll it out and up to the edge of the Thames where they sit with their drinks.

"Well kid. Since you were his squire seems fitting you're the first to say something."
She approached the body. The cold grip of death having leeched the colour from his face. But still that grin his eyes though cloudy staring defiantly at the night sky as if to say "HAHA! Fuck you now I'm coming for you!"

She struggled for words...

>>21875048
As for orders...
>>21874851
Defiantly the Endless Armory. That's too good to pass up.

We need sort of a monkly order focused on the more arcane aspects of the Paladins. Not sure of the name
Another seeking to find and enlighten others with the Music
Another to know that the Silence is everywhere, and to know it is to be able to fight it.
Another deadicated to simply HELPING others. Charities and what not. Peaceful, but if someone they help is in trouble, they won't stop at anything to let the Music be heard.

I haven't read the entire thread and while it sounds like a really cool idea something about it also seems really wrong to me. What is it about the nature of a Paladin that makes them inherently flawed?

Morality isn't supposed to be black and white in WoD. That in itself could be their flaw I guess, but then it's missing the entire point of playing WoD in the first place. It's more subtle than the grand heroics of D&D, there shouldn't be a battle of good vs evil. It might be a good idea on its own but I think that introducing it into the setting is to the detriment of the other splats, especially vampire.

I could see it fitting in a bit better if a paladin were a really short-lived thing, like a person who sees his friend murdered by a vampire having his epiphany or whatever and going on a one-night vampire killing-spree and burns out at the end.

>>21875101
I like this. Paladins should basically be Joe from the Protoman mythos; seeing an injustice, fighting against it for a short time, and going out in a blaze of glory trying to light the way for others.

>>21875101
An organized force of unambiguous good is a problem for vampire in particular because it becomes too great a distraction from the subtleties of vampire politics. Honestly I don't know much about the rest of Wod but wouldn't it have a similar effect for a lot of the other supernatural creatures?

>>21875089
Carriers of the Eternal Lantern?

>>21874403
I am super curious about how Paladins would feel about Geists as they are tied for my favorite WoD group, next to the hunters. Though I was much more a fan of the oWoD hunters for some reason.

>>21875139
Yeah. That sounds good.
The Guiding Lights
The Sputtering Torch
The Warming Fire
That sort of thing should be our Order names.

>>21875082

"In his youth he wasn't a good man. He did horrible things not because he believed in them but simply because he was told to. We all know that. We can't hide those things from each other. But one day he heard the same thing we all did. Found himself in the deepest pits of despair, hearing voices that encouraged him to just end it all. Like all of us he fell deep into that pit and sank into the shadows until at the bottom of it he saw the same thing we all did. He saw hope."

The young squire clutches her dead teachers arm, tears streaming down her face once again as she continues.

"In that instant like all of us he was reborn. He became a beacon for all mankind. A guiding light that showed them that the world wasn't all bad. That there was still hope and everywhere he went the darkness shrank away. Like all of us he burned himself alive to cleanse this world of the shadow and the silence. He was an inspiration. Not just to us but to everyone he met. By living he made the world a better place."

The girl wipes her tears away as she starts to get into it. A new look of purpose in those eyes, a smile twitching at the corners of her mouth.

"So he's got a right to die with a smile! Same as all of us because every last one of us is going to die the same way! With a weapon in our hand and evil dead at our feet, our souls fuel for the fire of humanity and our voices echoing in the song forever!"

There's a cheer from the assembled Paladins, who seem to have grown in number since she last looked. A number of people she has never seen before. Some dressed in old armour that looks positively out of place with the more modern weapons they're carrying.

>>21875089
>arcane paladins
I'm thinking the Symphonic Order. Or maybe The Resonant

>enlightening preachers
The Bards, maybe the Orchestra. The Resonant would also be a good name for them.

>Spymasters
The Dischordant. Probably the "necessary evil" order--they spend so much time researching it, that their Music tends to warp a bit..Things Man Was Not Meant To Know and all that warps their connection to the Music.

>Charity
Definitely something corporate--I'd like to see the name of the Order be the name of the organization on the surface--like any good WoD group, if you look deep enough into it..you start seeing paranormal shit.

>>21875101
I could see that working. Paladins could become so obsessed by the Music that it utterly consumes them. They fight more gloriously and dramatically than Hunters but it must ultimately end as they begin to value their work more than their lives.

I mean, if you could experience the suffering of all beings around you, wouldn't you do anything, anything, to even alleviate that for a moment? Even if it was completely suicidal?

>>21875101
They're flaved: first of all they can't win, at most they can break even. People will get disperate after a while and probably fall. Also the Silence is up to get them continously. If you want moral ambiguity you might play up the fact they don't actually know what the Music is or if it even actually exist. Things can get morally uncanny in this game, man. We're just downplaying it now beacouse we're setting the basics down.

>>21875048
Cool and concise. I allready wrote a couple similar things upthread, what di you think of them?

>>21875166

There's a clatter of metal on stone. Everyone stops cheering and looks down. The old Paladins blade has fallen from his hand. The other swordsman of the team shrugs
"Well shit, with a recommendation like that guess you're no squire anymore."
Hammerman stands with a cheer and pulls another flagon from the pile, fills it with ale and hands it to the confused former Squire who now clutches her teachers sword.
"WE LOST A BROTHER BUT GAINED A SISTER! WE FOUGHT EVIL AND BEAT IT! FUCK YES THIS HAS BEEN A GOOD NIGHT!"

There's another rousing cheer from the crowd of Paladins. The sound of music and song from some of them. The clinking of glasses and the sounds of someone cooking on an open flame.

Hammerman passes his new sister a lit torch.
"All yours. Send him on his way."

She takes the torch and lights the funeral pyre. Her teachers grinning face is quickly lost behind the flames as they push the boat out into the river.
For the remainder of tonight they celebrate a life well lived. This eternal brotherhood of all paladins. Wherever they are they know tonights a good night because somewhere someone faced down evil and triumphed. They lost a brother but gained a sister.

Tonight was a good night.

And thats the writefaggotry finished.
Man I need a drink now. And to read the rest of the thread

>>21875180
Whilst I like that these names relate to the Music, having too many sound related orders might be a bit much. Especially when there's an Order of Paladins called Bards. Might want a few more Paldiny/knightly/combat/battle/martial order related names. Like the Endless Armory. Though stuff like Resonant and Discordant does sound pretty cool.

>>21875180

Maybe there's actually a huge chain of paladins or sympathizers who possess a large amount of resources. This group consists of people in power or who have a lot of wealth. They use their money to either outfit paladins as best they can or to covertly allocate funds so that money can get to those who really need it. However, the intense amount of secrecy behind the whole operation can give those who aren't in the know the wrong impression, so a lot of negaticive rumors are spread about this Order.

They are called the Illuminati

>>21875232
Glorious! Cheers!

>>21875213
Not "being able to win" isn't a flaw. No one wins in WoD.

I like the idea but I think that in a setting where there is no precedent for it an organized force of righteous lawful-good-with-superpowers heroes is dangerously close to mary sue territory. I'd rather see it actually work.

>>21875089
I think we need a political factions. May I suggest:
The Hooded Tower

You were the surviving member of the board that approved the bulldozing of the werewolves' forest. You left that vampire with no funds and a ruined political career thanks to a few choice photos. You rallied the town to crack down on the mystery drug that took your father's soul. And you were given a key and your were welcomed into the Tower.

When a silence borne witch spouts dispair on the radio, the Tower hacks the signal to send good feeling to all people. When the Fallen community leader tries to rape some girl, the Tower makes sure sleeping pills are in his drink. When some /thing/ plans to crawl out of the sewers and eat babies, the Tower makes sure the 'safety hazard' has been cemented in.

The orders might think of you as busybodies and bores, always droning on about speed limits on roads and drug awareness programmes, you know you sing the song as well a they do. To you, the Music is a chorus of voices singing songs of peace and goodwill. And in battle, it's easier to break the gate down if its never repaired.

You may not pick up a sword or a pistol, but you've made sure the people are greatful that shady alchemist had vanished, or the greasy mafioso have started keeping their heads down. You are one of the Hooded. And from the Tower, you see the true path.

>>21875213
I'm supporting yours 100% I just can't really fall in with >>21875048 I guess I'm just a sucker for the way you fleshed them out more.

>>21875082
Pretty lively bunch! I can see several orders (particularly the younger ones) being more like this... The older ones would likely take themselves more seriously. And be big into ritual. Not sure about the permanent manic grin though... But yeah, these guys are clearly one of the newer and more... 'Proactive' groups.

>>21875101
Ahhh, but here's an idea: The younger groups might just blitz in and wipe out cells of vampires and the like... But what about the older and more established ones? What about the ones that recognise they can do more good by playing the same game the Children of Caine are and using it to do good? There'd be shadow conflicts sure, but let's face it... The vampires have a LOT of power and influence, as do the other enemies of the paladins. It'd be all too easy to paint a group of well-armed, slightly bonkers folks with a habbit of shooting up 'evildooers' as 'enemies of society', 'terrorists', or 'insane criminals'. The paladins can't fight the whole world, nor can they risk making the common man their enemy. They'd have to keep it on the down-low

>>21875357

I would say the manic grin is something a lot of the more violent ones all have. But they all tend to be pretty happy.
Constantly dancing in tune to the music leaves one feeling good about themselves. Brings a smile to their face even when there's no reason to smile.

I would say the orders the big ones especially who have substantial normal human backup and a long history would be prone to playing the long game. More carefully husbanding their tiny number of paladins. And that's more from the normal human element in their organisation than it is from the paladins themselves.

But ultimately they all share this bond. This way of thinking. This desire and drive.
There's none of the sneering disdain the other splatbooks have faction members heap on each other. There's JOLLY COOPERATION!

How about this: Each Paladin, from hearing the first note, is doomed to his/her Crescendo. They will, eventually, die in a huge way. There is no escape. The Silence is only putting it off, denying the Audience the final curtain on your scene. How you face it, well, that the measure of a real Paladin.

>>21875450
That's a good idea. Makes it a bit more grim.

The collective term for Paladin-kind should be The Brotherhood. Even in ever Order, major to minor , they are brothers, through and through.

We should have established Orders (at the Storyteller's discretion) but emphasise there are Orders of all sizes. Custom ones are expected!

>>21874851
In a similar vein:
The All-Knowing Archive

You know your enemy better than they themselves do. You remember things you never learned, find knowledge in the back of your mind that seems to spring from nothing. You see the corrupt politician's deals with the Mafioso and the Triads. You smell the smoke of the schoolteacher's first arson. You taste the blood the homeless man on the corner tasted when he bit out a child's throat for a scrap of bread in the dead of winter.

To you, the Music conveys data. An endless stream of knowledge and facts, sometimes things once thought forgotten. Sometimes things that might be better off forgotten. But you receive it. And the All-Knowing Archive will listen along with you.

To the other orders, you are a teacher. Guidance is something all are in need of at one point or another, and with your immense mental library, there are none better suited to guide. Divine knowledge courses through your mind and is locked away in your now-eidetic memory. Ancient techniques of forging. Rites and scriptures that burn away evil and cleanse the impure. The deepest sins of those who you seek to punish. Nothing of mankind is hidden from the Music, and so nothing of mankind is hidden from you.

To your enemies, you are the mastermind. Always in the worst place at the worst time. Always one step ahead. Always a thorn in their heels. It is not your place to fight the Silence directly, however. You are not the screaming warrior or even the assassin in the shadows. Your strength lies not in arms, not in slings and arrows, but in strategy and tactics. Your tools are subtle messages and inspiring words, ancient prophecy and forbidden secrets.

You are the General, the Vizier, the Executive. You are the Archivist.

>>21875357
As soon as they're "playing the same game" they're no longer battling it out in a blaze of glory. They're just mary-sue crap, with all the perks of a paladin and none of the possible downsides.

There's a reason why Hunters are the way they are. They lack inherent superpowers and know little about what they're up against. They're the underdog in this fucked up world but they fight on anyway. That's your WoD equivalent of a paladin right there. This over-the-top heroics belongs in D&D.

>>21875496

The hunters are the murderhobos and businessmen who make a weekend hobby out of hunting critters paranormal.

The Paladin is a man consumed by an inferno.
As for "playing the same game" that's what makes the old orders so hilarious. You have the normal people in the order playing this long game while the Paladins chomp at the bit to raise some hell

Good night people i'm fucking tired, please keep this thing up and archived! It was a pleasure to work and write with you gentlemen.

>>21875496
Short, brutal lifespan because of being doomed to the Crescendo? Like, you become a Paladin, average lifespan is then 10 years or so. A hunter ends up doing about the same amount, but over a longer period.

>>21875328
>>21875450
We're currently working on the basic outline. But I might have an idea of making their flaw a little more characteristic.

Paladins don't continually have their powers. The fire within them may burn brightly for some time but it will ultimately ebb away. The majority of the time they're as vulnerable as any other mortal creature but, when they draw upon the Music and their convictions, they temporarily become empowered enough to fight the fiends. But only until the Music and they're forced to return to the safety of their hideouts or the ignominy of a covert lifestyle until the Music begins to cascade once more.

The Music doesn't perpetually play. It grows stronger one moment and receding the next, letting them hear the Silence once more, like some terrible unknown symphony dictating their life. One day, once they have fought the monsters and tried to conquer the Silence, the Music and their powers will completely abandon them, leaving them completely defenseless to the Silence and vengeance from the creatures they once fought in what is shamefully known as their Diminuendo. It's why most Paladins prefer to go down in a blaze of glory, the Music ringing in their ears, their mortal flesh temporarily empowered by their conviction in their glorious Crescendo, than be left to be snuffed out by hellish creatures as they're tormented by the Silence.

tl;dr Paladin aren't always roided up on superpowers and have no real idea of when the Music, and their powers, will ebb and flow

Thoughts?

>>21875530
So like a Grey Warden?

>>21875508
Hunters can be all those things because they're not one-dimensional.

>>21875543

Not a bad idea. But probably too chaotic for a RPG

>>21875496
What about >>21875450 's idea? Every paladin leaves their mark. They either die in a blaze of glory, or they gutter out and they loose track of The Music. Every day they walk the line between burning up, or dying away. Even old, seemingly weak paladins will take up the sword one last time to strike down that one last evil, or will pour their everything into a great work for their successors to take up and use against the darkness. Their weakness is their transitory nature; they burn twice as bright, but half as long. Some, the eldest and wisest, put it off as long as they can, even living to over a century or a little more... But in the end, they dance that final dance and the flame consumes them.

How's that? Or are you still determined that there is no place for brightness and unashamed goodness in the world?

If that is indeed the case... Come, listen to the music.

>>21875562

Thinking on it a better way to go about it would be after they roid themselves up for a bit they have to not use their abilities for so long.
So not only does each ability use up the chance of you going up in flames but also adds to the depowered time you have to put up with once you stop using your powers.

So a paladin team after a night on the town have to lay low and rest while they recover.

>>21875543
>>21875589
Making their powers temporary might be a good idea but make it a little bit less chaotic. In terms of gameplay, players should really be able to decide when they summon up their powers rather than having it dictated to them.

But having to lay low for a while after a raid or something where they roid out for a bit would be a cool idea as it could create some interesting social interactions and roleplaying between characters.

And making them as vulnerable as other humans most of the time (therefore having to lay low a little) would go a long way to explaining why they haven't yet utterly annihilated the other creatures or been destroyed themselves due to being so damn overt.

>>21875589
I think I mentioned this earlier; the more a paladin opens themself to the music, the brighter they burn, the longer they have to lay low, or the resonance of the music tears their soul from their body in blaze of glory. Mortal bodies weren't made to handle its power. That's what I meant here >>21875586 While paladins MUST use it or lose it, so to speak, if they use their power too much, it will destroy them. This also ties in with crusades: three score paladins might need several months rest to recover from their actions after a crusade, the music giving them unfathomable power, but nearly destroying them all. And if hundreds, or thousands gather, while they can change the fate of the world, they will ALL die; the resonance and joy of the music present is just too great.

>>21875586
>old
>paladins
This is my issue with the way you guys are presenting the idea. It's an oxymoron.

On one hand they're supernaturally inclined to fight themselves to death as gloriously and dramatically as possible. On the other hand you speak of old wise paladins and organized orders of defenders of good and "The Music".

The former is novel, interesting, and lends itself towards both interesting gameplay (characters could only survive a short adventure before burning up, or live on to fight just a little longer in exceptional circumstances) and might be workable into the setting. A short-lived nature implies passion, impulsiveness, but also a reckless fight for good with potentially unintended consequences.

The latter idea completely contradicts the first and reduces them to little more than Hunters with special powers.

>>21875695

Yeah it also means the team has to plan to avoid finding themselves in a situations where no one can protect them.

I would say the main reason they've not won is numbers. Paladins comprise a mere fraction of the population. Maybe a hundred thousand throughout the entire world. Most of them acting individually or in small groups for the most part unaware of the orders.

Of those hundred thousand. Only a fraction of them are fighters. They all hear the music but not all of them are able to go out, roid up and fight it. At least not well.
The rest are the thinkers, the listeners and the shadowy types.

>>21875722

Nah the old ones would be old by paladin standards. Middle aged. Maybe one or two genuinely old folk who would never be the fighting type.

The orders would be mostly run by normal humans. Who have to balance a longer fight with keeping the paladins happy.

>>21875722
It's a rare paladin that can resist that call. Incidentally, not all paladins fight themselves to death. They could just put their all into forging an epic Blade of Evil's Bane, or scribing a text that gives inspiration to those that follow them, or by perfecting some spell, or a database of evil creatures and how best to fight them, down to the last detail of each individual vampire they know's daily lives. Those that live to be over 40 are rare. Those that live past normal human years are rarer still. I never meant them to be in large numbers. Sorry for the confusion.

>>21875766
Honestly I'd rather keep the number of Paladins and the size of their organizations small. Paladins burn bright for a short time before either exploding or snuffing out; they don't have time for big overarching organizations.

Make the 'political' organizations more like 'Philosophies', the way Promethean does it. The biggest Paladin organization you should find should be an older Paladin and some Squires/students, but each teaches some kind of greater philosophy behind what they do to the ones they take under their wing, perpetuating certain 'Orders' over time.

Alright, before we flesh the fluff of the splat any further, I think we should get some hard and fast rules down; something actually concrete and tangible to the Epiphanies and Quests that Moralfag listed (we are using those, right? They seem the most expanded). We can handle the orders and the particulars of paladin culture after the most difficult bit is nailed down. Traditionally speaking, /tg/ is great at fluffing a new idea, but never actually finishes the shit they get done, so let's make this WORK, before we make it pretty.

Sadly, I have to get to bed now. I'll check in as soon as I wake up, if the thread is still around by then. Catch you all later folks: This idea is awesome and you should all feel awesome.

>>21875820

I would say keep the small number of orders as a minority. The fact they exist at all is unusual as they're clearly not how Paladins think. They're founded and run by the offspring of Paladins and their descendants. They know they exist because an ancestor was one, setting about finding others and recruiting them with tales of valor and glory that speak to the song in their heart.
They're the ones who play the long game these humans who seek to an extent to manipulate paladins. The leaders of an order never meet with paladins for their sight would lay their sins bare.

Those who run alone or in small groups are closer to the music. More pure so to speak. But at the same time lack resources and fancy weapons.

An order paladin can get freakishly effective weaponry but he has trouble sometimes hearing the music.
A lone paladin has to use a stop sign as a club but the music roars in his ears with every blow.

>>21875820
>>21875806
How about this for the X/Y/Z distribution:

>Calling
What prompted you to hear the Music for the first time?

>Philosophy
How do you interpret/respond to what the Music tells you?

>Quest
After you've been a Paladin for a while, what becomes your end goal? You know you'll go out in a blaze of glory someday, but how?

>>21875806
>>21875766
Ok well that's fine, but then they are effectively just a hunter conspiracy with sweet endowments.

This is what I'm trying to get at. The idea is cool but it toes the line between being different enough to be it's own homebrew splat and being too similar to something that already exists.

>>21873661

>night becomes day

/tg/, what is this I hear in my head?

The song... This... Music... It's... Beautiful.

>Finally! The Reckoning as it was meant to be played!

But what about those St. George mofos?

>>21875897

The main thing is tone.
Hunter is still a depressing thing. But Paladin isn't. Paladin is a tale of glory and the brave

Well I'm off to sleep too. This better be here tomorrow

>>21875857
Modifying Hunter mechanics and tacking on stuff like superhuman abilities?

Another concept, that I think would tie things together quite well, drawn from that picture in the OP, is the idea of what 'hearing the Music' actually means...

Every Paladin, no matter what his Calling, hears the Music. It suffuses everything, all the time, and cannot be 'turned off,' even when it says things the Paladin does not want to hear, because the Music sings not only of goodness, but of suffering. Simply by looking at a person, or a place, a Paladin can HEAR all the suffering they've ever caused, or experienced. They see the torment behind the casual smile, or the malice behind a polite facade, merely by looking, whether they want to or not.

Being a Paladin isn't just about the powers you have to stop evil. It's about having no choice but to see it everywhere. >>21875919
is wrong- you're a beacon of light shining in the darkness- but the darkness is so much bigger than your light, and someday you'll burn out...

>>21875919
Amen to that. If I ever run/play this, I'm telling everyone to bring some music to the table for epic moments (quiet pieces as well as fight musics).

Again, let's get some concrete numbers here people. Fluff's all well and good, but next to the crunch, it's easy.

Okay, this time I mean it. Goodnight!

>>21876007
Mechanically, it could be treated something like Mage Sight or Auspex, except always on and giving information about people and places at GM's discretion (probably with the ability to advance it and become more skilled at directing it if you wanted to)

>>21876007
>
Being a Paladin isn't just about the powers you have to stop evil. It's about having no choice but to see it everywhere. >>21875919
is wrong- you're a beacon of light shining in the darkness- but the darkness is so much bigger than your light, and someday you'll burn out...

just scrolled past this thread and saw this post. Reminds me a bit thematically of Polaris.

>>21876066
messed up my greentext whoops

>>21875919
That's not enough. While that's the norm (as it should be given the setting) it's not the rule; Hunter isn't that one-dimensional. Regardless, even if it were then you'd be justifying an entire new splat, which by all other things considered slots perfectly into an existing splat, on the basis of "tone".

There's not necessarily anything wrong with making it that way but it's a) not as interesting and imaginative as I remember the idea being made out to be when I saw it in a thread yesterday, and b) not as unique as some of you guys think it is.The whole music shtick, sure, but otherwise it's a reflavouring of the knights of st george amongst other things.

>>21875970
Just throwing out some vague suggestions for mechanic. This may seem a little strange for a WoD game but why not have a resource pool representing Music (needs a name)? Every time you use a supernatural power, the music grows in intensity and tempo (Fortissimo) and you use some of the Music resource and have to wait for it to recharge as the Music goes into Pianissimo (i.e. laying low, no powers for while). Different abilities would use different amounts of Music.

As your Music resource grows, you can use abilities more frequently but you become more obsessed with your Quest. That way you can have builds focused on using equipment with low Music users or those focusing on increasing the Music pool and using their powers more frequently.

>>21875919
And we could put in a last resort ability called Grandioso Crescendo or something, where, in exchange for a massive temporary power boost, you burn off all your music resource permanently in a heroic sacrifice type moment. If you (somehow) manage to survive, you'll be permanently unable to use Music abilities and be left with only Silence. But it would be an awesome last stand nonetheless.

>>21876191
Although the low Music, high equipment users would essentially just be hunters...

>slight refluffing
>Haibane renmei: the RPG
yes. YES.
i love you guys.

Sounds gay

I'm in

Crunchwise, what we have so far:

1. Paladins have supernatural abilities fueled by a resource called Music. The resource pool is limited, so it's possible to have no Music and thus be vulnerable as any other human. If the resource is limited, how do Paladins get more Music? I suggest that in order to get Music, they should have to do good deeds in their mortal life. You can't just be a part-time do-gooder, after all.
2. When they aren't using their Music, they are normal mortals (or mortals plagued by visions of the world's evils.)
3. Paladins are destined to burn out. Perhaps this could be represented by powerful, Music-intensive abilities also causing self-damage, in the same way as the Grandioso Crescendo that one anon suggested is normally fatal.
4. A paladin whose morality drops too low falls. Perhaps their morality should factor into how much Music they gain?

>>21878162

You know, whenever you talk about their powers...

I keep seeing the Makai Knight armors from GARO. Basically, Knights in that series were incredibly badass - If conventional - fighters, but they could briefly summon a suit of nearly-invincible mystic armor for when shit got real.

Each Knight had a 'time limit' he couldn't exceed...Bad things happened when he did.

Maybe you could use the rules for Apocalyptic Forms in Demon: The Fallen?

Paladin the Redemption. A storytelling game of glorious sacrifice.

>>21878204
That would largely depend on just what we define Paladin powers to be. Personally I'm leaning towards something more like vampire disciplines. Paladins should be badass fighters, yes, but it's only a part of what they are. Paladins are forces for good, and not all evil can be cut up or shot. Evil can be bigger and deeper than that, and Paladins are ultimately ineffective if all they can do is fight the symptom but not the infection.

>>21878204
That would imply that all Paladins have is combat powers. Whilst their powers may be somewhat limited and temporary, I see them as having a wide range of them. Stuff for investigation, perception, social interaction etc. Not just combat.

If you guys keep going with the musical references and terms, it would be a good idea for their powers to represent their own music changing maybe.

Say you act twice as fast, your music becomes allegro or presto. Maybe each paladin hears their music in a different way which drives them all differently as others have said.

>>21879228
Different genres of music, maybe? Combative paladins hear fast and violent rock, scholarly paladins hear slower, placid classical music, etc.

>>21879266

Or they just hear the perfect, bell-tone pure chorus of an infinite expanse of entities of pure good protecting their interests.

Or rock would be good...

>>21879266
I imagine the paladins hearing different genres, but not necessarily depending on their roles. A combative paladin could hear from things like Paganini's Fifth to Ace of Spades, tempo and volume as well as timbre seem to me like they would influence much more than genre.
Maybe the more hectic and unfocused the greater the timbre? A solitary paladin gathering info as quietly as possible hears a solitary violin plinking away, while a group of paladins all trying to destroy the evil hear a great symphony. Maybe multiple paladins influence each others music into great orchestras.

>>21879359
The music is the music of the soul though, coming in specific songs is very weird.

>>21879527
It was merely examples. I didn't mean that they would hear songs.

I'm not sold on the necessity of burnout. To me you have 3 "abnormal" states for a paladin.
1) you used your powers too often and got carried away, the Music like an endless tune in your brain. You risk burnout and a cathartic explosion that leaves you still able to hear the Music but long term incapable to use your powers and act in it. Maybe forever. This is assuming you survive of course.
2) you stop listening for your choice or the circumstances. This is usually temporary and doesn't imply you breaking your code, it's just that you focus on prosaic, simple problems instead that on the Hope and let your flame dim.
3) you can get Dissonant breaking your code and growing disillusioned on the Music and on your quest. The Silence nudges you in the path twisting your powers and perceptions but dventually you fall of your own choice.

This would be to encourage people to a proactive style of play that doesn't just devolve into "Rip and tear! Rip and tear! I'm a Music listening man and half!"
So yeah i'm sold to Music as power resource, you would get it back behaving like the fucking paladin you are in prosaic ways or by using too much powers all in one go, something that leaves you risking burnout. If you stay too much time without spending it you start deafening (case 2) that is even quicker if you have got 0 Music points at the time. Degeneration rolls that fail convert some of your Music points into dissonance point that, spent, have strange effects and kept get you in situations in wich you have to roll for degeneration again (case 3).

>>21881286
Notice: the burnout would be different for everyone if you're a Meek journalist on the quest to perfecting (or whatever system we decide to use, they're all similar anyway, we're really channeling a zeitgeist here) whose code compels to accept no corruption and injustice to stand, your burnout will probably imply publishing the article that ruins your career, rather than going out in a blaze of glory beating Skullfuck the Soulshitter, werewolf extraordinarie.

I think Pianissimo should make you more vulnerable than a normal human. Fighting too much makes you weak as a kitten, thinking too much makes you sleep for a few days/weeks/months. The Music doesn't care how weak the instruments get, only that they are played.
So, you cleared out that best of vampires and tore the leader in half? Now you and your buddies can't get enough energy to walk or go to work. You spent all night completing your ghost encyclopaedia's third chapter? Great, now you have a splitting headache and have a hard time doing simple additions.
This is why you need Squires. They aren't full paladins so they can't get burned out as bad. This also presents the challenge of regaining Music. How do you do a good deed if you can't cross the street?

Their power stat (what blood potency is to vampires) would instead be a measure of how well they can listen to the Music, after their ephifany's cathartic outburst, with the usual effects i guess. I'd call it some synonimous of perception, but we need a term that can double as empathy too...
Their moral stat would probably be called The Code and differ slightly between them in function of Epiphany,quest and Order, more in this later if i can.
Their powers? I'd just call them Notes, Tunes and Songs: a tune is what you get from your Epiphany, it'll color your career from then on. It's Made of various Notes that you learn from a general list, from a Quest list and sometimes from an order list: their effect varies slightly based on your tune, virtue and vice sometimes. A song is the Devotions equivalent of this game: you learn various Notes from various tunes and mix them together in a noumenos melody whose results are off the scale compared to Notes and tunes.

Ok, gottago to lesson, see you in a while.

>>21881703
Good. Needs an appropriatelly harsh mechanic

>>21881467
People are fully capable of working themselves to death. If you publish that article, it may not lose you your job, but possibly just see you dying of exhaustion while thousands of people read it and demand the corrupt, war-profiteering politician you wrote about be removed from office and put on trial.

I am convinced that paladins should be putting their own lives on the line to use The Music. Otherwise it just feels like a cop-out.

How's this for an idea?

You have your 'resonance' stat that starts at a given level and goes up every time you use a supernatural ability, while sinking over time. Once it hits a certain point, you start having to soak bashing damage (bypassing armour). A couple more points and it turns lethal. Really go all-out and you're just eating aggravated damage as the resonance threatens to rip your soul free! Every time you use an ability, your resonance goes up, either by one pip if it's an ability with 'tempo' less than or equal to your current resonance, or it sets to the tempo of the ability, if the ability has tempo greater than your current resonance.

Then there's 'dissonance'. You gain dissonance by ignoring calls for aid, letting evil pass unpunished, or having zero resonance. Not sure how it'd work mechanically (as I said, I'm not a major WoD player), but I think it should represent the silence closing in on you, making you less able to use your abilities, or act at all. This creates a constant balancing game that the paladins have to play, between giving in to their urge to protect the innocent, help the meek and punish evil; and their need to keep their powers in check, lest they destroy themselves.

What do you folks think? Clear enough?

>>21881899
Like it. Would you mind keep this up with your brainstorming till i get out of lesson? It'll take a while.

>>21882217
Dammit, I have no-where near enough experience with the system for this... I guess the powers are next? How would those be handled? Actually, given the tone suggested earlier, we might want to look at Exalted charms for some inspiration... Though cutting down the numbers is probably a good idea.

If you're still thinking of a resource for them I would suggest not having one that they use per say but one that they gain.
Fire. The more they use their abilities in a given timespan the more they set themselves ablaze. If it gets to a certain point they're almost guaranteed to go up in flames.

>>21883064
Hey, check it out! That's been suggested already right here >>21881899 Thoughts?

>>21883107

Seems to me theres two main "metaphors" used throughout the concept.
Music and fire. Music has been more motivational while fire has been more related to their abilities.

>>21883138
Point taken, but semantics aside, does the idea of the system work?

How would the powers (Miracles? What kind of name should they have?) be categorised? One set for each skill or something, like in Exalted? Or just a few sets, like the disciplines in Vampire?

>>21883443

I would say just a few sets.

>>21883443

A suggestions: You could use the Orpheus one, where Paladins have very few powers...But they're highly versatile powers, and you can pump more and more Vitality into them.

Also, a group of Paladins is called a Choir.

>>21883489

Nah choir doesn't sound right.

>>21883498
>>21883489
I'm Toor on Choir, it fits with the Music side of things but really clashes with the knightly side of things

>>21883558
*Torn

>>21883558
I'd suggest a 'brotherhood' of paladins, or 'sisterhood' if there's more women. Larger, more permanent groups, with mortal attendants and such are 'orders'. 'Chiors' are groups within the orders, usually of the more arcane paladins.

Sound good?

How about instead of dissonance, Paladins have dischords.
It doesn't represent not using power, or the silence getting to you.
It represents the inevitable moral trails that all Paladins go through, the complex nuances of being pure White in a black and white world; each Paladin deals with it in their own way, be it becoming more of a grey, letting themselves be stained to save others (The Cynics), charging on through for a third option, in impossible situations and burning more of themselves (The Rightious) or shrugging and reloading (The Endless Armoury). And just as important, the fact that they are still human.
Only by failing to confront or admit these moral nuances exist can a Paladin fail, because they eventually mount and build ontop of each other and one day, the Paladin will break.
So every time you leave someone to die for your own safety because you can't and won't admit you're afraid the Dischord becomes louder, every time you slaughter a man who you know to be both a Wife beater and a Doctor that saves a Dozen lives every day; the music becomes that little more Jarringly out of beat, as in your heart you wonder if you did the right thing, every time you take food from one mouth, to give to another, or to fight off a pimp, only for the whore to go back to him for her next hit when the withdrawal shakes start to come; the song becomes a little more annoying, as you wonder how it can sing, sing of human kindness, when all are forced to do such things to survive.

>>21883866
And their Power up stat is Harmony. Representing that they've dealt with this, be it by becoming the greatest, loudest beacon of light to exist, awash with the music and one with it, or becoming worn down old cynics, who know the world is Fucked. But keep trying none the less.

Also, yeah, no matter what the use of the fire, it should risk burning you out, since that's the point. A man who pours his entire soul for one night into writing a great article, or forging a perfect sword will probably crumble to dust as soon as its published or quenched; just the same as the man who leaves himself as nothing but metal and willpower will fall apart; just as soon as the hostages are safe.
It removes the main point of them, if the Fire doesn't burn them too, since they are tragic figures, as far as everyone else is concerned, Paladins are Fireflies in the night, tiny specks of light, flickering, beautiful and all too soon gone.
And they're perfectly Okay with that, because it means that though they risk dying every day, others live.
But it doesn't necessarily have to kill them, if they use it wisely they can grow old, so there will be old Paladins, ones who've touched the fire all their lives, but never dove right in; the more responsible members of the Order, or those who've been given the Duty of living, to tell the tales.

Also, Pic related for Leader of the Endless Armoury/The Endless Crusade.

Personally I really like the idea of these paladin guys having that insane grin while they do their thing.
Makes me think of Alexander Anderson.

>people being given incredible power by some sort of higher power and then CLEAVING AND SMITING evil with it
Ah, I see. You want to bring back Hunter: the Reckoning, is that it?
Because that's what this sounds like to me.

>>21883138
I think the 'fire' is more like a 'radiance' rather than 'burning', if you know what I mean. It's somewhat like what Qashmallim are made of.

That said, why isn't this on 1d4chan already?

>>21884129

It's both. The fire consumes them as they set their souls ablaze and as they do so it illuminates the world around them driving back the darkness.
They are fuel for the fire. It'll consume them sooner or later but as it burns them it burns away a piece of the darkness too. So some time in the far far distant future all the darkness will have been burnt away by billions of past paladins.

>>21883866
The thing about a paladin is that you DO see things in terms of moral absolutes. I mean, you LITERALLY see all the pain everyone goes through and are driven to fix it. That's why you don't kill the wifebeater, you help his wife and children run away and drag him (sometimes literally) to a councillor; you don't steal food from one, to give to the other, you buy it yourself and set up a sustainable kitchen; you don't just fight off the pimp, you help get the whore into rehab.

A paladin only acts with the finality of death when there's no other cause of action, when an evil HAS to be slain. Forever ending the chance to hear The Music for someone is a terrible act and one only undertaken in the direst of circumstances. Some groups may have differing opinions on this matter, but the point of a paladin is that when you act, you act with CONVICTION. There are no questions of "Did I do the right thing?" because you KNOW you DID.

>>21883909
I know right... Creeps me the fuck out. But I guess some (even most) paladins are a little unhinged, by most people's standards.

Now, getting back to the crunch, how will 'dissonance' or whatever you want to call it, work? How will it inhibit the paladin's ability to use their powers, or even take any action at all? Let's talk MECHANICS people; we can handle the rest after the bones are in place.

>>21884163
Ah, I see... oh I just remembered, about the Z splat (lineages? orders?), I have some ideas about it. Paladins, they die quicker right? At least compared to other supernaturals. So how do they maintain their Orders? One dude above said they're maintained by their relatives or squires. But I have another idea: remember how Paladins can 'see' into the past of anyone they meet? What if sometimes, an aspiring Paladin hears the Music and just happens to 'pick up' the waves of long-dead paladins? A sort of 'echo', that leads the Paladin to reform an Order? This is also because Orders can be completely wiped out (say, right after a Crusade vs vamps, another power wipes out the Order along with its squires/kin etc). So I think individual Paladins could be able to hear/perceive these 'echoes' of long-dead Orders, and be able to remake them.
Because after all, good deeds last longer than lives right?

Now i wanna play an epic story of Sven Johanson, wrecked paladin with epic moustache, who desperately tries to drown his Music by being a singer in a satanic metal band.
His struggle is gonna meet an end during his most epic show, he´s gonna be so fired up he will burn himself and all the brujah punkrockers in the audience.
Most glourious death for a man

>>21884302
I mentioned this earlier; the idea that some orders have an ancient secret. When a paladin knows he's going to die, he prepares himself mentally and physically, through some ritual process, so that his voice joins the music in death. Seers, (or whatever the title), of the order are then trained to listen to the music and pick out the words of paladins long-dead to provide teaching and guidance to the new generation, alongside books and texts left by their forebears. It stands to reason some paladins might hear the words of the long-dead by accident too and be driven to re-form destroyed orders. That must really piss off some vampires and the like: "What?! The Order of the Vigilant Shield AGAIN?! I thought I wiped the last of them out back in the 40s! Where do they keep COMING from?!"

MECHANICS people, PLEASE. Fluff can WAIT.

>>21884300

I'd say every paladin would be pretty off their rocker. There's no doubt in them. Self reflection becomes meaningless to them pretty quickly.
They do what they do because they KNOW it's the right thing.

As for dissonance or whatever you want to call it.
I would say the only real barrier to a paladin using his abilities would be how much he's willing to hurt himself to pull off whatever he's doing.
To use his powers he has to burn. The more of himself he burns the more likely he is to go up in flames entirely dying in some glorious final epic.

That old paladin in the writefaggery earlier pretty much burnt himself alive to kill an elder vampire in a single blow. For it he got sliced in half.

After using your abilities you have the prior suggested cooldown where you chill out to recover from exerting yourself.

>>21884302

Echos sound good. Although really I would say the long standing orders are more a product of the Paladins descendants than of the paladins themselves. Subject to all the crooked goings on of your typical organised entity just with the added danger of having a bunch of nearly insane do gooders kicking around inside it. So the leaders of an old order will often be shadowy secret people who never put themselves in a position where a paladin might read them. claiming it's to protect the order from evil but in reality it's to hide their own sins.

>>21883909

Yeah in a lot of ways Anderson seems like the archetypal battle Paladin. Completely absorbed in his work, undoubting in his righteousness, a beast in a fight and just crazy.
Probably an Order Paladin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqcPYUzWFlA

I have to be back to the lab in five. Let's contribute as much as i can.

>>21883489
>>21883866

Perfect, except for the fact that the Silence getting back at them IS their moral quandaries: the Music is inside everyone and it IS their inner good. But the Silence is inside everyone too. And the more you're open to one, the more you're vulnerable to the other. Why else would they be tragic and "short lived"? I'm perfectly ok with them crumbling after they burn out, it's just everyone of them should crumble it's own particular way, the fundation of their strenght being also the one of their downfall.

>>21883899
Yeah, i proposed the note, tune and song model of powers to give each Epiphany a board category of things it can do, expanded and specialized by single powers(the notes) that in turn manifest in different ways depending on one's quest and inner nature.

>>21884374
Perfect, it has basically allready been said in various ways upthread but it's about time i admit i like the idea a lot

Allright, on crunch. We need a power stat like blood potency. Let's call it Listening for now. It works about like all the others regarding maximum number of power points/ power points per round, maximum stat value etc. It costs new level *8 xp to rise like all the others and so on. I propose the typical rolls for power activation are either stat or skill+ listening+ level of power for the general powers and stat +skill + power value for the others (lv 5 power of profecy would be something like wits+ empathy+ 5, general power of strenght would be athletics+ listening+2 for super jumping for example).
I propose you can rise your power stat faster and get new powers cheaply accepting major burnout risk.

The spent resource points (Music points or Flame points?) are taken back in huge amounts when you pass a degeneration roll and in even huger quantities when you help someone else pass one. And in smaller quantities when you just behave as a paladin. Failing degeneration rolls can corrupt your points twisting the effect when you spend them. This is just BASIC brainstorm, ideas?

Generally on powers. The way i saw it was: you choose your Epiphany (Let's say the fool-prophet) that gives you the "discipline" (tune) of prophecy, level 1 to 5 like in the other games it Lets you do something new every time you raise it and gives more dices to previous uses too, as usual. You also have a list of possible single powers rated 1 to 5 that don't scale up with a theme (kinda like goblin contracts) they're singular powers, Notes. You can buy them with xp and add them to your Tune, changing them in the process (the prophet of our example buys a general Note that makes him more effective in a fight and adds it to his Prophecy tune: fluffly he now knows where and how the enemy will attack a split second before he does, cruncilly he's got more of a bonus to defensive techniques while his Coward friend in the search of Cleansing doing the same and buys the same general note for his tune of Powress and the Notes he's got from his Quest's list (Let's call it the exorcism list) would probably do more damage due to cleansing fire, instead. Nothing forbids buying other tunes, they're just more expensive. Does this make sense?

Back to lesson and lab keep this up people.

>>21884930
So cool

To be honest, I think the moral quandary should be if you dance or you break away. The Music has set it's enemies, the Silence has it's champions. You are compelled to defeat them. A Hunter can defend his turf and be quite happy. A Paladin must burn away all foes an keep moving. The Music tells him where he must dance and who his partners will be and then it's up to the Paladin. Why rehabilitate the new thrall when killing them would fit the Music just as well? Why should you kill that werewolf when he protects the neighbourhood from street gangs? Why does this Witch matter so much? It's messages from above, no context or compassion. And following these orders are the only way you can keep going, funnel the fire before it burns you anymore. You're as much as inhuman as any creature of the night. Why are you special? (We should be taking notes from Alexander Anderson)

The Silence is always there, letting you know that you can always just give in, stop the dancing and try to stop the conducter. This is not a party, this is a graveyard and every step is an affront to it! Fear, wrath, bitterness, these are the natural states. To reject them is unnatural and you are sick of being unnatural. You want to be a man again, to kill in cold blood, to take the pleasures of the flesh, to be free again! Your fire has been sucked away, replaced only by a void. What sweet irony to bring the truth to the fools you used to call brother.

I think should be a game about faith and sacrifice. You are doomed to die. Do you put your trust in the Music, that this dance is the one you should be following? Do you want to die as an ideal, or as a man?

So you have your Tune and your notes. Now I say these Orders provide you with your Tempo. This should be for extra specialisation, so being a general Paladin is still and option. So a Prophet Paladin joins the Armoury. Now when he uses his Combat Foresight Note, it grants him a bonus to his damage if his Note is successful. But if he joined the Tower, his ally would get a bonus to hit instead.
But if we go down this route, we'll have to split each Ability into sections, (E.g: See enemy's next action (initial effect) + Extend seeing to next three actions (Tune) + bonus to damage if successful (Tempo) and probably categorise effects, such as predictions, damage boost, damage avoidance etc.
Of course, to keep the Tempo's effect, you need to follow the codes of your Order when dancing to the Music, or you'll lose your bonuses.

>>21885007
>It's messages from above, no context or compassion

The problem with that is that the music /is/ human compassion, it's the most basic human nature, any order you get you should understand on some base level, even if your thinking brain thinks there's got to be more to it.
You're not getting orders from on high, you are defending the human condition, in all its glory and tragedy.

>>21885124
This. The whole POINT of a paladin is that they HAVE no 'moral quandary'. They know what is right and they do it. Not questions, no second-guessing. They can literally see and weigh all a person's sins and virtuous acts. The Music is the inspiration to pure goodness, not instructions on what to do. You're even defending the 'human condition'. You're defending, aiding and nurturing every act of goodness and happiness in the world. Even utter monsters deserve pity for what has driven them to become monsters, even if they must be cut down in the end.

>>21885124
Ah well, in that case, your quandary is thus: Is this sort of thing appropriate for all situations? The Music is telling you the most compassionate thing is to keep the cancer sick child alive in the hope she will get better. Kill the pimp because there is the hope that his whores will seek freedom. Let the werewolf be, for his protection gives hope to the people. But is that right? Is it better to give a beautiful lie than a ugly truth? Is it better to let the child die waiting for a miracle? Is it just to slay the pimp and count on the whores following their dreams? The werewolf eats the flesh of it's kills, is that the price for hope of these ignorant, stupid people? Who cower in fear of your burning eyes that see their every sin. They rely on you, a myth, a figure of legend to fight their battles for them. Is that all you are now? A weapon to hold back the truth, that it will never get better? A dancer, dancing to entertain a crowd who do not see the monsters behind them? Is it not better to lay it all bare, stop the dancing, stop the enthralling music that says "Just hold on" and show them the things on their doorstep?

This is what the Silence asks. Why keep the charade going? Why act like the blind while leading them? Why be a part in a play when you can be true to the world.

>>21885258
> NOT even defending. Bleh.

Not sure I follow moralfag's system... I thought the idea was that you don't so much have a pool to draw from, like blood points in Vampire, so much as you have a measure you have to balance between keeping you alive and having the power to accomplish your task? I proposed it here >>21881899

I think I've lost something along the way here.

>>21885283
See what I said here: >>21884300
A paladin has conviction in his actions. Different paladins and orders might have different approaches, but they do not doubt what they do. They would burn themselves to heal the child with a touch, they would help the whores to a better life, they would indeed kill the werewolf, if it spreads misery and terror, then defend the neighbourhood themselves.

The silence appeals to their human self-interest; not to urge them to pull the veil away, but to say, "You're killing yourself for these people and why? They don't do anything for you. They would hate you if they knew what you were." If paladins are hope incarnate, then The Silence is apathy and depression.

Besides, I think you're misinterpreting paladins as Lawful-Stupid smite-o-matics. They aren't just hunters; they heal and build as well as just go and cut out the cancer.

Relating to the Paladin's power of Detect Evil (seeing someone's deeds in an instant), why not a kind of 'introspect' power to make the enemy see their own deeds, misdeeds and evils? Who knows, maybe there's some enemies whom the Music decided to redeem. So, not just 'slash all evil' all the time.
Other variations for this is showing someone else the target's deeds, and showing the deeds to anyone within x distance from target, etc.

>>21885351
Hmm, I see. Well, I must apologise, I was obviously mistaken.

>>21885283
Exactly. The Music sees things as they could be.
The Paladin has to deal with things as they are. The Music is white in a world of Grey, you might see it but others can't.
And so if you go around acting like there is some natural order and justice by which things can be measured, you will be seen as Mad. Which they are.
If you act in moral absoloutes, then some will take this as a personal slight; or worse, there will be times when the grey is tempting, or worse, you could live with it.
And times when the White will be painful, because nothing hurts eyes accustomed to darkness, like being brought into the Light.
The Paladin has to tread a thin line between letting themselves get swamped by the Grey side of things; or just taking up arms and trying to hack the evil out of the world, one dark evil at a time, without any thought for the consequences, and making things worse.

If you want an idea of what a Paladin gone bad can do, imagine one of those rogue shooters who pop up in America, gunning for people who've done them wrong, only this one has a purpose, leaving behind him a trail of smote evil, and grieving widows and traumatized family members, who the Silence now will turn its voided heart to.
The moral quandary of the Paladin is that sometimes, the most human part of them will say 'He's too far gone to be redeemed; he needs to be stopped and the world must see what is was and what he is.' and the Person, will have to respond 'We can't do it that way, it would just hurt more people.'

>>21885482
Those'd be interesting tunes to have, certainly! How would they work mechanically though?

Also, I'm still confused... How is the power system working? What I proposed, or Moralfag's system? (I'm not even clear 100% on what Moralfag's IS... God I need to play more WoD)

I'm loving the fluff. How about some crunch? Stats and tables and such

>>21885643
I would, but I only have a passing knowledge of the system. Is there someone out there with a better knowledge?

>>21885667
In fact, if someone could get all the Splats into a single post, so I don't have to keep trawling through the thread, I'll make some suggestions for the template.

>>21871462
>>21871320
>>21871140
>>21871027
>>21870800
>>21870582
All the Epiphanies and design philosophy.

>>21874090
>>21874763
>>21874476
>>21874308
>>21874763
All the Quests.
>>21873002
Lamenters, sixth Epiphany. How many do we want guys?

So, if we're settled on the power's frameworks, Let's get dangerous.

Has anyone considered what keeps paladins from going public? Every other race has one (that I can think of), but it seems like paladins would have little reason at all to hide what they are and what they are doing. In fact they would probably want to reveal it.

>>21885684
>>21886683

Made a derp, sorry.
>>21874763
>>21874476
>>21874308
>>21873997
>>21873002
The Quests.

Now i'll fish for the alternate takes and order ideas, give me 5 minutes...

>>21886727
Probably the whole 'The more of us gather, the more evil comes for us' thing. Maybe revealing themselves would be easier for them, but endanger others.

>>21886727
The Silence allways finds a way to even the playing field with the Music. It's its nature, for it is the absence of the song. Imagine Paladins going pubblic and trying to reveal everything as they understand it to the world. What would the Silence do to "even" that? Can you imagine? I can't and neither can the Paladins. Better remain on the safe side.

>>21886727
The fact that their powers aren't always on. Using them drains their Resonance pool (or whatever it's called) and they have to lay low as the Music goes into Pianissimo, probably helping out in a more mundane fashion like at soup kitchens and such. If they reveal themselves, then it's essentially a death sentence as monsters would just murder them for revenge when they're weakened. They don't spend all their time being powered up sword wielding evil detecting murderhobos.

>>21876191
>>21881703

>>21881187
>>21878162
>>21875889
>>21875543
>>21875494
>>21875330
>>21875213
>>21875180
>>21875089
>>21875048
>>21874851
>>21872951
>>21872078
>>21870118
>>21875303 (awesome)

Various alternate takes and order ideas.

Allright now i'm back from the worthless labwork my country calls pratical exercise (and makes me pay 1000 additional euros for) and can get some work done, hopefully. From where do we begin?

We've got quite a few diverging takes on the thematics and how they relate to rules.
Here's a suggested route to take that ultimately does the important thing: Keeps it simple.

Paladins have a normal human statset except you replace/add the following:
Their morality is replaced by Hope. Since a Paladin is pretty far removed from the usual standards of human morality it doesn't really apply to them. What does matter though is how well they can hold onto hope. So if he does things that are evil he loses hope but regains it for doing good. Nice and simple.

Harmony is added and is something akin to Gnosis for a mage. It's their overall power stat. The higher the harmony the bigger and better their abilities right off the bat.

Pyre is added. Think of it as reverse mana. You start with none and as you use your abilities you gain it. Having some will also unlock some stronger abilities to use. But if you get too much of it then you're going to go out in a blaze of glory or in a very silly manner. You can only get rid of pyre in a few ways. The most accessible of these is simply resting. Taking time out to recover and wind down. Letting the fire shrink down to embers. Others options may be hanging around a certain place or doing certain things. But these have to be limited/difficult.


We shouldn't be limiting the Paladin with a pool of power points or whatever but rather going "here's superpowers. Go nuts." and laughing as the stupid ones burn themselves alive in their first conflict. Letting the smarter ones survive, fight in bursts and carefully husband their strength striking like a whirlwind and planning carefully. Do you draw the fight out to ensure victory or go for a swift kill to avoid building up too much pyre?

>>21887915

Different kinds of Paladin are akin to the watchtowers of Mage. In that each one has its own "ruling" tunes. The abilities they can most easily add to their arsenal and draw on.
So a fighting paladin can easily stock up on fighting skills and use those powers easily. But he can still get the talking/inspiration abilities of a social paladin. He just has to pay more EXP for them and maybe build up more pyre from their use.

So we have, among the Epiphanies:
The Worthless, or the Meek, who dance to the tune of Fairness: they were saved and that gave them back their worth, at least to someone. In response they developed a way to extabilish the worthyness of causes and persons. They dance to this tune and exalt the small and humble and tear down the castles of those who think themselves Great.

Then we have the Cowards that couldn't do what was right back then, and now dance to the tune of Righteousness. In their presence deception (and self deception) won't stand, and no matter how hard and painfull, the right thing Shall be done and the wrong ones exposed for what they are.

The Fool tought he was smart, and had to accept his own stupidity to grow. Humbled once, he now dances to the tune of Prophecy, and what he says comes to pass.

>>21887915
>Pyre is added. Think of it as reverse mana. You start with none and as you use your abilities you gain it. Having some will also unlock some stronger abilities to use. But if you get too much of it then you're going to go out in a blaze of glory or in a very silly manner. You can only get rid of pyre in a few ways. The most accessible of these is simply resting. Taking time out to recover and wind down. Letting the fire shrink down to embers. Others options may be hanging around a certain place or doing certain things. But these have to be limited/difficult.

This is more or less what I was thinking. When a Paladin uses his Tunes or Notes, his Pyre increases. Each Tune or Note has a set amount, or maybe a way to slightly randomize how much Pyre they confer per use. More powerful Tunes or Notes can only be used at certain amounts of Pyre, feeding into the whole "the more of yourself you burn, the more powerful you get" thing. And then you have Grandioso Crescendo, which is always accessible for a Paladin to use, grants truly outrageous amounts of power, and kills you immediately after you finish whatever you were trying to do.

I suggest having Pyre be a 0-10 scale similar to Willpower. Grandioso Crescendo confers 11 Pyre, always being fatal.

>>21887915
I think that a cool idea would be for each paladin or each order to have a signature ability which could be tied into their back-story in some way (i.e in the story the teenager being healed from lorry splatted to perfectly healthy) which is more potent for them in some way.

>>21888112

I would say the Crescendo is more something that just happens its not a specific ability. Once you hit maximum pyre it happens all on its own.

>>21888175

Makes sense. Maybe give each form of paladin its own unique ability that other forms can't get.

So the combat paladin will never be able to get the social paladins unique ability. But the same is true for the reverse.

>>21887915
I don't like to re-post what I had already, but as a counterpoint and a different idea, here it is. As I said, I haven't played nearly enough WoD, but it's still a thought:

> You have your 'resonance' (maybe Pyre, to re-name it? Seems a good enough name, with the talk of 'burning') stat that starts at a given level and goes up every time you use a supernatural ability, while sinking over time. Once it hits a certain point, you start having to soak bashing damage (bypassing armour). A couple more points and it turns lethal. Really go all-out and you're just eating aggravated damage as the resonance threatens to rip your soul free! Every time you use an ability, your resonance goes up, either by one pip if it's an ability with 'tempo' less than or equal to your current resonance, or it sets to the tempo of the ability, if the ability has tempo greater than your current resonance.

> Then there's 'dissonance' (considering re-naming that). You gain dissonance by ignoring calls for aid, letting evil pass unpunished, or having zero resonance. Not sure how it'd work mechanically (as I said, I'm not a major WoD player), but I think it should represent the silence closing in on you, making you less able to use your abilities, or act at all, when it reaches higher extremes, eventually driving the paladin to fall, even becoming such a force for despair that they become an anti-paladin, who only seeks to show everyone how pointless it is to try and be anything more than what they are; downtrodden, blind and hopeless. That is, if they don't simply just kill themselves or otherwise sink into nihilism. This creates a constant balancing game that the paladins have to play, between giving in to their urge to protect the innocent, help the meek and punish evil; and their need to keep their powers in check, lest they destroy themselves.

And now here comes the wicked one, he who would live beyond the rules of society, and worse beyond the laws of humanity and the joy of the Music. He destroyed families, shot cops and kicked a lot of dogs, and here he is now dancing to the tune of Care, and protecting what is too precious to lose, to frail to risk.

The Wailing one (lamenter) comes in: where he knew only pain and loss and desperation, he can now work to spread Joy. Dancing at its tune he gets strong and intense and yet innocent as a child: watch him do what he loves and show everyone, everything, that it all will be worth it in the end!

Finally, without attracting too much attention at first, the Shunned comes dancing to the tune of Inspiration. He who only could think about himself and how special he was, now knows everyone is special, that everyone is wonderfull and just a couple of steps can make them show it, as long as he helps them find something to strive for.

>>21888206

Both of those fit in quite well already.

Ignoring pleas for aid would tie more into the hope morality replacement than its own thing.

>>21888209
>>21888016

Interesting. But ties people down into character backgrounds too heavily.
Make them more based around general personality than specific failings.

>>21888112
>>21888206
I like the inverse power points, makes sense for the project and solves a lot of problems. We can still have Dissonant pyre for the risk of falling and some mechanism to force them out of eccessive mediocrity or else their flames dim as i wrote here:>>21881187 .

I also love your ideas on dissonance britfag but the problem is without a powerpoint system, we risk inploding the nwod engine...

>>21888258
Well upthread they're vaguer, just wanted to fresh them a little out. Other epyphanies? We could as well make them 7 of we get a cool enought idea.

>>21888318
Wait, i Made another derp and misread britfag's post twice, counting the first time i read it. It works! And i love it!

>>21888318

Nah the replaced morality mechanic works for the prospect of falling. Remember NWOD is very modular in how it works with the various groups. You gotta work within that.

So staying mediocre and not doing what you're meant to do is when you lose hope. Lose too much hope and you fall or maybe worse.

>>21888417
Writing the harmony table now, let me know if you find it convincing when i'm done with it. It'll take a little while. Also gotta smoke. Feel free to write at your earth's content.

A B/C D E F
1 10/1 0 1 5
2 11/1 0 1 5
3 12/1 1 1 5
4 13/2 1 2 5
5 14/2 2 2 5
6 15/3 3 3 6
7 20/5 5 3 7
8 30/7 8 4 8
9 50/10 13 4 9
10 100/20 21 5 10
A= harmony value, starts as 1 as usual etc
B/C= maximum pyre/maximum pyre gained per turn.
D= minimum pyre
E= burnout dice
F= maximum traits

Remembering that in this game you start with 0 pyre and then gain it up to your maximum instead of replenishing resources, a,b,c and f are fair enought. Burnout dice is what you roll once you reach your maximum pyre, and once for every point you go beyond it (so you can go beyond your maximum pyre if you accept to roll burnout dice). It might result in direct physical damage, degeneration and alienation rolls Etc as necessary. Minimum pyre is a thresold below wich you also roll burnout dice to see if your flame dims. So you must keep a balance between pyre gained (using powers etc) and pyre lost (resting, behaving according to code etc). Now i'll start working on burnout dice. You people like it so far?

>>21889085
Notice: trauma and disillusion can block permanent pyre, making your pool smaller. If your pyre pool becomes smaller than your minimum pyre, you've lost your spark (you can get it back unblocking said pyre, we'll see how). Actual Silence-inspired acts might (besides or while making you roll for degeneration) give you Dissonant pyre whose unpleasant effect unlocks when you lose it. If your pool is full of Dissonant pyre and/or your hope reach 0, wellcome to Fallentown, population= you.
Notice that freeing Dissonant pyro more often than not implies either burnout or a degeneration roll anyway (yeah it's a self perpetuating circle: once the Silence has you it doesn't let go)

>>21889085

Not massively rule buff on the NWOD system. But seems sensible enough. At least for a first try that can be corrected via playthrough

>>21889231

Nah that's a bad idea having permanent pyre. Losing your paladinness is something that should be connected to the morality replacement (Hope) not to pyre

>>21889085
From a complete outsider's perspective... It seems like gobledegook. My only real experience with White Wolf games is from Exalted and to be honest, I can't follow this. Unless you care to explain, I could present my idea?

>>21889705

Generally how it works is thus:

All the various kinds of critter in NWOD follow the same basic statlines.
But they have different things swapped out.

Morality is one that comes in many different forms.
Mages get wisdom instead which is essentially "the less you use magic the more everyone likes you" it represents your well morality in whatever form it is relevant for you.

Each one has its own "power" stat which represents their general overall power. Mages have Gnosis which represents their overall growth as a mage. The higher this stat the more powerful all your abilities are. But it often comes with some drawback or extra effect once it gets high.

Then most of them have some kind of consumable power point pool. Mages have mana.

As you may have guessed I am most familiar with Mage.

Burnout dice take many form and shapes. They manifest in various ways. Burnout might be direct physical damage in some cases, but then it doesn't show itself as that Untill the paladin feels he has done what he had to. Then he crumbles like a stringless marionette or in some particulary egregious cases he bursts into flame. It can also manifest as mental damage (spent willpower points) or as lingering trauma (alienation rolls! Get your new mental alienation here! We've got discounts for paranoia and delusions of greatness!) or in other ways still. Let's consider damage first of all: every time you go beyond your limit, accepting more pyro than you can take (ie an harmony 1 paladin that accepts his 11th point of pyro) you roll your burnout dice n time where n= number of pyro points accepted this turn. Every success is a lethal damage, reroll 10 as usual. Write down these damage below your normal health bar: you'll count them when the fight ends, or when you've completed your task (in the case of our idealist journalist that dies of stroke after the corrupted politician he nailed down with his article is sent to jail). Notice: you can accept more pyro/turn than your maximum too, accepting to roll burnout for each pyro.
Alternativelly we could be talking about mental "damage" or fatigue. In this case successes in burnout roll= spent willpower points. This is the main framework what do you people think?

>>21889638
Yeah, but i wanted to link the paladin's power to it's morality, basically. As there's no easy way to do it directly in the nwod system, i tought what i'd do would be circling around the obstacle... There's probably a way easier way to link the two things, i'll admit. But damned if i know what it could be.

>>21889705
Lol i'm sorry i jumped at it Taking too much for granted. Your idea? Fire at will.

>>21890484
Basically we have a that is the score of the powerstat, that is harmony. B/C is the maximum amount of pyro you can have in any given time and how much you can accept in a turn (beacouse we've decided in this game you start with 0 pyro points and get at least one every time you use your powers...and in other circumstances too i guess) if you want to go over those you can, rolling your burnout dice (that are d10 like all dices in nwod) for each point you get beyond your limit this time. Each 8 and 9 are a success, 10 is a success and then you roll again (so potentially 2 successes). Each success is a damage to either your hps or your willpower and SAN. There's also a minimum pyro you can't get below or you roll your burnout dice to see if your flame dims. I also proposed mechanics that make your maximum lower or fills your pool of points with Silence instead of Music. I was thinking about abolishing the morality stat and absorb it here actually...

>>21890409

There's ways to do it. I just worry yours is a bit...off.

>>21891042
Me too! What do you propose?

Well, I think I can contribute another Order, if you'd be so good to indulge me:
The Knights Confessor

The Vampire is just a addict, the werewolf is just mentally ill with complications. The Mage can be taught, the Promethen made whole. You do not see the darkness in man because even the smallest mote burns bright enough to blind you. And your brothers will make that spark into a blazing inferno.

You are the compassion of the orders. You stay their blade and listen to the woes of the monster. With your Pyros, you burn away the prejudices that might marr your mind. Many a needless battle had been avoided, thanks to the cool heads of the Knights Confessor.

But the orders treat your lightly at their own risk. While they lie bloodied on the battlefield, you step forward with your blade sheathed and your face open and clean up after them. In your communities you are the most trusted, you are the fount of good wisdom. A child who breaks your window will be at the very least scolded by their parents, if not sent round to fix it. The people would prefer to open their door to the kindly librarian than the religious gun nut he excuses a moment later.

You will open a path to salvation through your words and actions. You will not be the first to step down it, if you can move down it at all. You are a Confessor and you will die knowing you have made the world, in a small way, a better place. Your death will be mourned and those mournings will turn into glorious purpose, like roses on a grave.

>>21890484
Okay... Let's see if I can make this clear...

P B L A
0 0 0 0
1 0 0 0
2 0 0 0
3 1 0 0
4 2 0 0
5 2 1 0
6 2 2 0
7 1 2 1
8 1 3 1
9 0 3 2
10 0 3 3

P = Pyre
B = Bashing damage per turn/10 mins an ability is active (not soakable on armour)
L = Lethal damage per turn/10 mins an ability is active (not soakable on armour)
A = Aggravated damage per turn/5 mins an ability is active

D A S
0 0 0
1 1 0
2 2 0
3 3 0
4 4 1
5 4 2
6 4 3
7 4 4
8 5 4
9 5 5
10 Can no longer hear The Music

D = Dissonance
A = Dice penalty to abilities
S = Dice penalty to skills

> Obviously, this would need HEAVY balancing and playtesting. These numbers are just off the top of my head right now.

And another, if I may:
The Night Riders

The vampire yelps as the bear trap slams on his leg. The murderer weeps as your shadow falls upon him. As the sun dim in the city, the gangbangers and the pill pushers stay in doors with their lights off. Because you an your brothers ride tonight

The other orders cannot understand you. They burn bright and beautifully, attracting ever creature of the night as they seek to snuff it. Brave, but foolish. You are the hooded lamp, lighting up the evil in the darkest caverns. And in daytime, you are almost snuffed out. Who would suspect the father of five slit the throats of the necromancers last night? Only you and your cypher brothers know the truth.

The other orders distrust you. They say your flame is too dim, your music too muted. How can you claim to dance when you do not move to the music at all? They whisper about your fallen being legion, that you dance too well with the Silence. But they cannot deny results. The people do not cower from your light, they barely see it themselves. But they glimpse it, as their rapist is dragged into the night and begin to wonder. And begin to hope.

You know salvation cannot be seen. This music has secret tempos and subliminal messages only your keen ears can pick up. You dance meekly, but with a turn of the shoulder and the flick of the wrist, soon everyone will follow your rhythm. And you will dance them through the darkness, because your have walked it so many times before.

Okay, I have too sleep. Let me know any other ideas for Orders you want to throw in.

>>21891252
It would be cool but require that all effects are Timed for more than a turn. This severily limits us as designers... Also wreaks avoc upon the nwod system i fear

>>21891239
>>21891519
Awesome and awesomer. Must remember to reread and organize all orders.

Going to bed too see you all tomorrow.

I've got an order, if that's fine:
The Church

The Music reigns through the Paladin's souls and minds, but none have stopped to wonder who sings, who conducts, who plays the instruments. Save the Church.

The Church worships the Singer and Her choir as the creators of mankind. They live to serve Her and the Host of Paladins who illuminate the Dark Night. You give thanks, break bread, go to Mass, and otherwise appear as an ordinary church. However, when night falls, they go on the hunt through the streets of the cities of man, cutting out the cancer that will not profess their sins.

Your order is one of the eldest, dating back to at least the Roman Republic. Its Prophets reveal themselves, preaching of Faith to The Singer, a belief which is twisted by the dark forces. However, you fight on, praying to the Singer to grant you forgiveness for your sins.

The other Orders know your presence, helping you when they can. Almost all orders, save a few, trust you and your order, helping you bring Her light, even if they do not see Her in all things.

"Silence! The dead don't speak! Do the dead dare walk the Earth before my eyes? Would the undead raise an army, fall in, and advance? Would those who would abandon the Music dare to meet my gaze? The Church will not allow it! I WILL NOT ALLOW IT!"