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[ERROR] No.21268713 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Who would Roboute Guilliman think was right?

The Loyal and Codex devoted Leandros, or the warp tainted heretic and disrespecter of the Codex Titus?

Think about it, /tg/.

>> No.21268719

I think Roboute's opinion would be "Oh fucking Emperor I'm in so much pain right now please kill me".

>> No.21268720

fuck your stupid fluff thread which is irrelevant to TRADITIONAL GAMING

fukken sage

>> No.21268757

>>21268719
Alright.

Assuming he has miraculously recovered and is in good condition, what would he think of the Titus/Leandros situation?

>> No.21268761

>>21268720
Its extremely relevant to all DH and DW games where you are expected to meet all of these characters in

>> No.21268766

>>21268719
This

>> No.21268769

Roboute clearly stated that the codex was only meant as a guideline to help the legion fight with the tactical expertise of the Primarchs.

Roboute himself disregarded his own advice on several occasions and even said that it was not the end-all of military strategy.

Titus reminds me of Roboute himself and what the Ultramarines should be, Leandros is what Ultramarine haters think the Ultramarines are.

>> No.21268782

>>21268769
SO you're saying Ultramarines, are NOT mary-sues?

>> No.21268787

>>21268761
>>21268720
And he even thinks sage does anything. Shit I'd have ignored the thread if his stupid comment didn't catch my eye.

>> No.21268796

>>21268782
The Blood Ravens are ten times more suish than the Ultramarines.

>> No.21268802

He'd say "better safe than sorry."

>> No.21268803

>>21268782
I wouldn't say they're maty sues. They got their shit kicked in at Macragge.

There's no such thing as victory against the nids.

>> No.21268812

This whole "mary sue" thing in w40k is laughable. Literally everything is a sue in this universe.

>> No.21268817

>>21268796
just because the Magpies are bigger mary-sues doesnt mean our maccragian friends aren't mary-sues at all kind sir.

>> No.21268818

>>21268782

Most of the copypasta depicting Ultramarines as mary-sues are from an interview with Mat Ward, not from any real fluff source.

The power they've been described as having over their successors is not any different from that seen with the Blood Angel and Unforgiven chapters.

>> No.21268823

>>21268803
The Ultramarines and Eldar won their fight against Kraken.

The Tau won against Gorgon.

The Blood Angels and Necrons won against the Nids.

The list goes on and on.

>> No.21268830

>>21268823
Opps I forgot to mention that a lone Eldar hero soloed an entire Nid Swarm by himself.

>> No.21268843

>>21268713
>The Loyal and Codex devoted Leandros, or the warp tainted heretic and disrespecter of the Codex Titus?

Gee, I wonder what you're trying to lead us to say? Titus was just that strong-willed that he could resist the warp energies of the power source. Do you really think Guilliman would want soldiers to not take action just because the exact wording of the Codex advises against it? The only way down to the planet was to take assault packs. That was then the only way to disable the gun and allow reinforcements to land.

Leandros was also wrong for taking his concerns directly to the Inquisition instead of keeping it in the chapter. He literally handed his own captain, who'd just ended both Ork and Chaos invasions on the planet, to someone outside the Ultramarines' authority. Leandros was fucking stupid.

>> No.21268847

Titus was in the right, Leandros is /tg/-level scum.

Girlyman would have bitch slapped Leandros, even while in agonizing pain, for pulling that shit.

>> No.21268853

>>21268803
Oh yeah. Was that the time they took out pretty much an entire Hive Fleet, save for a single tendril which they left for the Eldar, and only lost two or three companies?

>> No.21268871

>yfw people expect space facists to be fair and honest

>> No.21268877

>>21268830
>>21268823
I know the Tau actually had a good win over the nids (and then were slaughtered by necrons), but weren't those other battles of a more pyrrhic persuasion?

>> No.21268909

Ultramarines are tactically flexible in canon, particularly as they move up the chain of command, with captains valued for their unorthodox approaches.

Codex-fapping Ultras are a recent fabrication, and I'm fairly sure Titus and Leandros were meant to represent the contrast between old and new portrayal there.

>> No.21268921

>>21268877
I think only the Eldar got stomped by the nids in the examples i mentioned.

Oh..you reminded me. The Tau beat a splinter fleet without a single loss on their side. The Nids can be beaten in a non Pyrrhic fashion!

>> No.21268928

>>21268812
Yes, and the Ultramarines are Mary-Sues in a world of Mary-Sues. They are the Sues that all the other Sues have to think are superior and correct. You must comprehend the level of suedom at work here, because the Ultramarines aren't even the most Mary of the Sues.

>> No.21268937

>>21268796
>>21268817
What's Mary sue about the blood ravens?

>> No.21268958

>>21268803
The entire force of the Ultramarines, about 1000 soldiers, plus their navy and some redshirt Imperial Guard took out a Hive Fleet with minimal losses. An Eldar Craftworld was almost annihilated by a single tendril from said Hive Fleet. They have more plot armor than the Eldar in this instance. They're the biggest Sues in the galaxy, with the possible exception of the Grey Knights.

>> No.21268961

>>21268803
>There is no such thing as victory as nids

FTFY, nids always get wiped out.

>> No.21268963

>>21268937
Nothing.

These idiots have no idea what Mary Sue means.
Mary sue does not mean "character I do not like"

>> No.21268970

>>21268812
They just happen to have more plot armor and also happen to be in the right place at the right time if it gives them a moment to shine.

>> No.21268983

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY8TQeyNWpQ&feature=related

Ignore the magpie skins.

>> No.21268999

>>21268823
>>21268853
>>21268958
Maybe I'm wearing spore-tinted glasses, but I remember the battle of Macragge being a pretty shit time for the marines. Pushed back to their polar fortresses? Calgar half-dead? Barely won thanks to detonating warp drives? Macragge itself nearly destroyed?

>> No.21269015

>>21268999

This.

Losing a planet, 1/3 of the chapter and half their Chapter Master is not what I'd call an easy victory.

>> No.21269017

>>21268999
We are taking about Hive Fleet Kraken, dude, not Behemoth.

>> No.21269034

>>21268999
They lost the 1st company and took heavy losses to the 3rd and 7th. They didn't really sweat that much.

>> No.21269044

>>21269034
bro, losing the 1st company alone is a devastating loss.

>> No.21269072

>>21269044
Against the full force of a Hive Fleet? Not really. Each and every one of the surviving Ultras would still need a kill streak in the sextuple digits to stop stop the fleet, and they did.

>> No.21269123

>>21268999
The Ultramarines lost the entire first company, but held out until the Segmentum Battlefleet bailed them out, and the Battlefleet ultimately destroyed the Hive Fleet under the direction of an Inquisitor. They also lost a very good planet because of the Codex.

>> No.21269138

>>21269034

The First company is filled with veteran soldiers. Losing all of them is very hard to replace.

>> No.21269167

>>21269138
Any soldier who participated in the Battle for Macragge would be a very experienced veteran since they all must have kill streaks numbering in the hundreds of thousands.

>> No.21269184

Reasons why the Blood Ravens are Mary Sues:
>Super secret - nobody knows much about them, even themselves
>omg might be descended from a Traitor Legion lol

Reasons why they fucking aren't:
>Lost five companies because of an incompetent commander in the space of one campaign
>Has had large amounts of them turn renegade, including their Chapter Master
>Are thieving little scrotes

>> No.21269190

>>21268812
> Literally everything is a sue in this universe.
Keep in mind however that 'sue/stue' mostly applies to 'hero' characters. Villains are meant to be hated, and are often blown out of proportion and made seemingly flawless so that it's a bigger deal when the non-sue/stue hero beats the near-perfect megalomaniac.

In the case of the 40k 'villains' however, they don't come across as such. If anything, they come across as incompetent or running around with their collective thumbs up their asses. Vect is about the only 'true villain' now, since Abbadon can't scheme his way out of a wet paper bag. And Ghaz is only two steps behind Abbadon in his 'completely incompetent ability to sack one world'.

If anything, 40k really is the defining reason of what is wrong with sue/stue characters. The villains aren't even villains, as much as they are sniveling underdogs that never seem to really pose any actual threat.

>> No.21269194

>>21269167
yeah, against tyranids.

The first company have been everywhere, seen everything and can come up with 30 plans to kick ass before tea time. Even if they've already started buttering the scones.
That's what makes them so valuable

>> No.21269198

>>21269167
No, it took them 100 years to restore their First Company.

>> No.21269206

>>21268713

>Leandros

Implying that even Guilliman wouldn't see him for the whiny little bitch he was.

>> No.21269209

>>21268720
nice troll.

7.4/11.1

>> No.21269216

>>21269194
And the soldiers who survived have faced an enemy who beat all of that. The Nids are the perfect enemy to train against since they constantly adapt and force whoever they're fighting to do the same.

>> No.21269227

>>21268830
but he's a Pheonix lord.

>> No.21269268

>>21269216
Wut.

I'm sure their ground based combat gave them plenty of experience for cleaing space hulks
I'm sure it was perfect experience for boarding actions.
I'm sure that it gave them perfect views on how to banish daemons back to the warp.
I'm sure it gave them a great view on how to surgically take down artillery garrisons.

ect. ect.

>> No.21269270

>>21269198
It was only stated that they were veterans, not that the 1st company was instantly restored. Though as a matter of fact the new 1st company is comprised by a majority of veteran Nid killers.

>> No.21269321

>>21269270
>>21269167
Read the Space Marines codex before this one. If I remember, there was a shitload of fluff on 1st company veterans who all got Favoured Enemy against Tyranids.

>> No.21269334

>>21269268
More than half of their new First Company are veterans from the Tyrannic Wars. Their Nid-killing skillz makes them 1337 compared to normal Ultras.

>> No.21269351

>>21269321
Tyranic War Veterans. They were proto-Sternguard in the 4th Edition Codex.

>> No.21269354

>>21269184
>Lost five companies because of an incompetent commander in the space of one campaign
Three companies, and Boreale is only called incompetent by a butthurt traitor who never got on with him anyway.

>> No.21269380

>>21269334
bu....wha...?

EXPERIENCE WHEN FIGHTING OTHER RACES WITH WILDLY DIFFERENCE TACTICS AND WARGEAR DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.

GOOD NIGHT.

>> No.21269387

>>21269354
Five companies. He was the Captain of the Third. He took Five to the campaign.

>> No.21269390

>>21269354
he was called incompetent by one of the only survivors.

and he lost 3 companies.
to a man that misplaced 100 baneblades.

That should speak volumes about his competence

>> No.21269407

>>21269380
Tyranids don't stick to one tactic. Their entire schtick is that they're many and that they adapt to any situation. Fighting them means that you have to adapt yourself.

>> No.21269422

>>21269334
Great. They still lost the entire 1st company and took heavy losses to the 3rd and 7th, lost the best planet in their system because of the Codex, and were bailed out by the Segmentum Fleet, which actually defeated the Hive Fleet. The Ultramarines held out against Behemoth. They did not defeat it.

>> No.21269433

>>21269380
Wildly different*
jesus fuck I can't into grammar today

>> No.21269442

>>21269387
"Captain Boreale, who walked three companies into the slaughter of Kaurava."

Also, he was implied to be 9th captain - they're the only ones mentioned specifically in the Soulstorm campaign.

>>21269390
Cyrus calls all the other leaders of the Chapter incompetent as well. And Relic has never said the Imperial Guard won. Besides, all the non-Blood Raven leaders on Kronus - including Eliphas - lost to a guy who doesn't know how to use a vox. That's much worse.

>> No.21269448

>>21269407
but they don't magically transform into Traitor Legions, Tau, Orks, Necrons, Daemons or Eldar.
Neither can they bioengineer Shurikens, Bolters Railguns or gauss weaponry

Neither does their terrain magically transform to give them +exp bonuses.

>> No.21269467

>>21269448
>Neither does their terrain magically transform to give them +exp bonuses.
Actually it does in a sense.

>> No.21269469

>>21269442
Cyras only said that in his non canonical traitor ending.

You may as well say that Tarkus couldn't have been in Retribution because he was too busy being posessed by a bolter.
Or that Martellus wasn't there because he was in a chaos predator.
Or that Jonah wasn't in the intro because "no Jonah, you are the deamons"

since the vox thing only occurs on the Blood ravens last stand, That can be discounted as well.
especially since Thule contacts you and Tarkus via the vox on the very first level of DoW2.

You're sounding a bit desperate bro.

>> No.21269472

Please, the ultramarines are good, but we partridges have some tales of glory that would knock their socks off.

Guilliman himself renounced the mantle of Ultramar to join up.

>> No.21269511

>>21269472
PRAISE BE TO THE PARTRRIDGES,
GLORY TO PEART'REE

Did he join us before or after he plagiarized the shit out of the Codex Partridges?

>> No.21269512

>>21269469
>Cyras only said that in his non canonical traitor ending.
And said ending is the only place where he calls Boreale incompetent.

>especially since Thule contacts you and Tarkus via the vox on the very first level of DoW2.
Clearly Thule was taught the sacred rites of communication after the events of Dark Crusade, along with receiving a voice and accent change operation and having 2 service studs jammed into his skull.

>> No.21269516

>>21269512
No, he railed off on Boreale in my Matellus was the traitorz campaign.

>> No.21269522

>>21269512
He called it a disaster.
The fact that he doesn't even want to talk about it should be a good indicator about how well it went, considering he's happy to talk about such wonderful things like worlds being devoured.

If it was an honourable defeat I doubt he'd have a problem with it, he IS a very morbid and nihilist son of a bitch after all.

>> No.21269530

Titus did show exceptional warp resistance, if this was the emperor protecting him, or a pact with a dark god is never clarified. For all we know, the eldar did it because it's part of some big plan.

In any of these cases, Titus should go in for inquisitorial questioning, right now all the inquisition has to work with is "Look some guy survived warp contact". It could have been that the power source wasn't even enough to kill a spacemarine, and the warp thing in the inquisitor's body could have said it was to split the team up.

And finally, I'd say that the Ultramarines only divert from the codex when they REALLY need to. I don't think Titus using jump packs to deep strike with no idea what was below him was justification enough, and could easily have gotten the entire team killed. Although it does set the character for Titus, compared to DoW II's force commander who lead an attack through the jungle because he couldn't jumpack in like an idiot. Calling the inquisition is not only part of the codex (or so it is implied) but also the reasonable thing to do. The spacewolves, bloodravens, or hell even the templars may say "Screw the codex, this guy is too cool to be corrupted" but I don't see the ultramarines doing it. Especially with the risk a corrupted captain would bring.

>> No.21269533

>>21269516
These are the only mentions of Boreale and Kaurava in Chaos Rising, along with the aforementioned three companies line:

Tarkus: Another fallen brother.
Veteran Lucanus, also of the Fifth Company.
Martellus, what do the rolls say about Brother Lucanus?
Martellus: Killed in the Kaurava campaign.
Cyrus: I was at Kaurava. I recall no Lucanus.

Cyrus: You are doing well, Blood Ravens. You must have paid attention when I trained you.
Tarkus: It was Kaurava that damned you, I think.
You allowed a reversal of war to defeat you.
Cyrus: Spare me your moralizing, Tarkus.
Kaurava was no reversal -- it was a slaughter.
A slaughter caused by the incompetence of Indrick Boreale.

Storm of Lost Stefanus
This prized storm bolter was turned against forces of the Imperial Guard in the Kaurava Campaign. Its original owner, Sergeant Stefanus, never returned from Kaurava, nor was his holy gene-seed recovered.

>> No.21269552

>>21269530
>Calling the inquisition is not only part of the codex (or so it is implied)
It shouldn't be implied.
Space Marines are an authority equal to the Inquisitions. Inquistitors need only concern themselves with entire chapters. The crime of a single marine is within the Chapter's jurisdiction.

Leandros is going to get his shit kicked in by Calgar and Cassius when he gets home since he just shit all over their authority

>> No.21269558

>>21269533
>dat image
HERESY!!
HERESY!!!!
HERESY!!!!!!

>> No.21269564

>>21269522
No one's questioning the fact that it was a disaster - the loss of three companies in a single engagement is a huge blow. But why does it have to be due to incompetence on the part of the losing commander? Because he sounded funny?

>> No.21269571

>>21268713
The Emperor would back Titus. All psykic power is of the Warp, even the Emperor's, so if Titus is a heretic, so is the Emperor.

Leandros is a scumbag piece of shit and the reason why the Imperium is a sad organisation of anally retentive douchebags.

>> No.21269572

>>21269558
Now you know the real reason Cyrus didn't care for Boreale. It wasn't due to a disagreement on tactics or anything of the sort. The late captain knew his terrible secret.

>> No.21269602

>>21269564
I don't think Boreal was incompetent per se, he seemed to be an able NCO and soldier, just not a very good Commander, you know?
He was promoted to early, in my opinion.

>> No.21269623

>>21269564
Put simply, the buck stops with Boreale.

If he had been competent, he would have pulled out when shit started going wrong, or switched tactics.

>> No.21269650

>>21269469
Cyrus going traitor and me killing his annoying ass is the only canonical ending.

>> No.21269664 [SPOILER] 

>>21269602
Stronghold speech aside, the SM campaign in SS describes him as an able leader. Even some of the other races' campaigns present him in a fairly positive light. It could have been that he was a fine commander, but whoever beat him was just better.

Pic related.

>> No.21269665

>>21269650
Man, people either love or hate Cyrus.

Me, I love him.

>> No.21269691

>>21269664
I suppose going up against Alpharius or Omegon is pretty tough

>> No.21269696

>>21269190
In fairness to Abbadon, anybody would have trouble with a wet paper bag if they had no arms.

>> No.21269707

>>21269691
Roboute couldn't win a war against them.

>> No.21269718

>>21269707
Yeah he could.

>> No.21269738

>>21269718
OK, you're right. What I meant to say was, Roboute lost a war against them.

>> No.21269774

>>21269623
Sometimes there isn't much one can do. There have been several occasions when an entire Chapter has been wiped out in a single blow. For an even more extreme example, the Drop Site Massacre during the Heresy saw three Legions almost destroyed (at least in old fluff; apparently the Heresy novels are playing hell with the numbers). Now I'm not saying our bald friend Indrick was betrayed...

... or am I?

>> No.21269795

>>21269774
I have to admit I do feel bad for Boreale. Soulstorm was the first time they really talked about their strategy, and his was actually pretty solid.

But yeah. Nah. Cyrus is a cool guy.

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