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[ERROR] No.21108428 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

ITT: Ultramarines actually being awesome

>> No.21108461

>> No.21108471

Does such a thing exist?

>> No.21108483


>> No.21108485

>> No.21108493

no, but pics of it do because of propaganda. think like how "riding alone is riding with hitler". no one actually rode with hitler, but that didn't stop people from making pics of it. and this being the internet it didn't stop people from making porn of it either

>> No.21108496

Fall of Damnos. Graham McNeill's Ultramarines aren't awesome, but they are believable.
I just wish that GW would play up the Greco-Roman aspect rather than "BEST MARINES BEST MARINES BEST MARINES". Becuase done-well Roman Marines are amazing.

>> No.21108511

>Becuase done-well Roman Marines are amazing.

Badab war cough cough

>> No.21108516

Ultras with jetpacks and pulse weapons

be afraid!

>> No.21108541

Ultramarines fucking rock in Know No Fear

>> No.21108555

Cassius has T6



>> No.21108565


>> No.21108574

>> No.21108603

Isnt that picture the Battle of Calth?

>> No.21108627

I love the guy in the center who has grabbed the Tau by the throat and is drawing back to hit him with a power fist.

>> No.21108715

I actually like the Ultras when they're basically being Reasonable Marines, helping people and cooperating with other Imperial forces and whatnot.

But, as with other marine chapters and the Space Marines in general, there's a scale issue. Yes, they are the biggest and the strongest and the bravest, and they have the best armor and the best guns and love the emperor very, very much... but there simply aren't enough of them to matter very much. There's something like one Space Marine for every five million Imperial Guardsmen.

They make excellent commandos, good for raids on key enemy installations and assassinations of enemy leadership, but really they're rare enough that, except for the fact that the books are written about them, they shouldn't have any impact on the large-scale strategic picture. I mean, there may well be more vindicare, eversor, and culexis assassins than there are Space Marines, and they have to work alone and be widely distributed in order to have a chance of being where they need to be.

Marines are the celebrated poster boys for Imperial might (when you ignore that fully half of them fell to chaos.) But when you compare their numbers to the Guard, the Navy, the Assassins and weird shit the Mechanicus has... they just don't matter.

>> No.21108738

They have their own Imperial Guard regiment. That alone invalidates a good chunk of what you just said.

>> No.21108763

Yeah, my first introduction to the world of 40k was the Ultramarines Omnibus. With all the Roman names and such, I imagined their helmets to have a hoplite aspect to them. Imagine my distress when I discovered that wasn't the case.

>> No.21108801


Actually, since the whole "Horus trying to overthrow the Imperium" thing, marines are very strictly forbidden from commanding human troops. It is NOT allowed. They can cooperate, but marines "having their own IG regiment" is exactly the kind of thing that causes all other chapters to focus on wiping them out.

>> No.21108809

Ultramarines being awesome.

>> No.21108816

They haven't even done anything.

>> No.21108831

They totally should, though. And it's perfectly viable to have hoplite-helmet Ultramarines, because chapters personalising their armour.

>> No.21108837

so how about we use this thread to discuss the fact that, thanks to the Tyrannic War Veterans, the Ultramarines are now less Codex than the Imperial Fists

>> No.21108844

Responding quickly to major threats and coordinating/leading once reinforcements arrive is what they seem to be most useful for. They're the only major force with both the means to wage war and transport themselves to the warzone.

The Imperium will always win a fight that goes on long enough, it just takes the guard and navy a long, long time to react to stuff. The billions of Guard troops are mostly not seeing constant combat, while the Space Marines are.

Though I'd say that they would still be useful purely in terms of propaganda, the Emperor's will made flesh and that.

The rules only usually apply to a Space Marine chapter when they can be practically applied to it. Which is rarely. The Ultramarines have a whole damned empire.

>> No.21108862

Speaking of the HH, what the fuck is Lion El'Jonson up to?

Does he have some master plan no one else can see or is he actually autistic.

>> No.21108872

Yep. Its why HyperBadAss Movie! Marines are more realistic than tabletop marines.

Marines with all of the maxed-out, non-chapter specific stats of the fluff are all that makes sense.

Otherwise, they would be near pointless in the kind of warfare the Imperium engages in.

Its kinda like how American Godzilla is LESS realistic in reality than lolinvincible original version. Because if his scales and bones are strong enough to support him walking around and shit, those scale wouldbhave to be Chobham equivalent or better eith connective tissue being CNT...basically.

It also handily explains how the Legions most involved in the Heresy are so relatively few now. A major Astartes vs Astartes conventional battle is a Super Lethal Killzone casualty rates being simply insane.

>> No.21108874

I know what you mean, but it looks like they are moving ever so slowly in that kind of direction. Cato Sicarius has a horse hair helmet thing (idk what it's called), the DoW II ultramarines skin pack was really romanesque, an I swear I remember a piece of fluff that said they all carried gladii.

>> No.21108875

>standard orks being 3 times as tall as an astartes
>fanboy powerlevel is at 50 TerraWards and rising

>> No.21108883

Maybe those are Squat Marines.

>> No.21108884

Also, instead of "Brother-captains" they should be called "Brother-Centurions" and Calgar should be referred to as "Caesar" Calgar.

>> No.21108923


>They're the only major force with both the means to wage war and transport themselves to the warzone.

Except they're not a major force. A codex chapter has 1000 troops, maybe double that with vehicle crews and whatnot. 2000 soldiers, even if they're really super cool and badass, aren't going to be able to hold the line against a minor threat, let alone a major one. Quick response is actually what they're worst at; they're small groups of powerful soldiers, good for surgical strikes to weaken the enemy in preparation for an IG offensive. They CANNOT do defensive war. No, even the chapters whose whole thing is being good at defensive war. It's bullshit. They just don't have enough men to cover and defend the territory. Even if a marine were literally invincible, even if there was nothing that could kill one, 2000 marines couldn't defend a planet. They enemy would just avoid them and wipe out the 99.999% of the world with no marine presence.

>> No.21108950

He is inside The Rock. Which is/was a Gay Bar in Nottingham. The whole point of the Dark Angels is about Lion El'Jonson fighting his homosexuality. Anyway, in respect to HH, he took his time with fighting, because he was waiting to see who would win (This is canon). That's why he didn't go to aid either side in Terra. When Horus died, he decided to side with the Imperium. The Fallen Angels are actually the original loyalists of the Dark Angels which were outnumbered by the Traitors. With Lion deciding to stick with the Imperium, the Traitors (who were more numerous) declared the Loyalists as "Fallen" and now hunt them down in order to destroy the evidence of their original betrayal. Cypher, who's Dark Angel profile has been leaked (In Spanish, but I translated all of it for /tg/) has been marked as a Fallen and originally worked with Chaos (before this was retconned in the new upcoming DA book) and is slowly making his way to Terra to announce the betrayal of the Dark Angels. If you need the translation, I have it.

>> No.21108966


>> No.21108998

Something I liked about DoW 2 was that it made it very clear that your people were going in to wipe out major installations, defend key areas the gaurd can't handle or take out high value targets.
The guard holding the line untill the Marines get there is pretty much always mentioned.

>> No.21109057

I do mostly agree with you and you're correct that they aren't a major force I guess.

I just think it's not quite as ridiculous as you say, they do have fleets of ships, avoiding them once they are in system is going to be impossible. If nothing else, ruining a world while being harassed by them is going to be a difficult. Once a world is invaded, which the Imperium can't do much to prevent the main thing is to stop that force there and keep it from attacking other worlds rather than actually protecting the poor sods on the ground.

>> No.21109080

>When Horus died, he decided to side with the Imperium.

He and Russ arriving (well, being close to arriving) is the point that forces Horus to confront the Emperor though. So he must make the choice before then, unless they're going to retcon that.

>> No.21109153

The First Captain of the Emperor's Children during the Heresy was Julius Kaesoron.

>> No.21109184

So, when the Lion leads them back to Caliban after the siege of terra, the traitors win and then replace the loyalist Dark Angels?

Huh, that's actually quite interesting and means that the DA finally have a secret worth protecting.

>> No.21109185


The number difference between marine fleets and the Imperial Navy is almost as bad as between Marines and the Imperial Guard.

The Navy and IG are more numerous, more widespread, and more organized. The Marines drop in to help when they happen to catch a transmission and happen to have someone in the neighborhood. The Departmento Munitorum (covering the Navy and IG, along with logistics and intel gathering and so forth) is galaxy-wide, with distinct chain of command and areas of responsibility. They fuck up sometimes, sure, they're a massive bureaucracy, but they're doing a massive job in an organized fashion. When any marines at all show up, it's a bonus, but when a couple of worlds are threatened, you can expect a navy detachment and 3 million IG, that's just normal.

It's like... huh. I just figured it out. It's like Batman and the police. Batman is the best! He's the coolest! He's got all the best gadgets, and he punches the bad guys! But he's one dude, with a couple of vigilante sidekicks. Meanwhile, there are local, state and federal police, everything from the county sheriff up to the FBI, working all over the country, coordinating, handling shit. Batman may spend a week hunting down the Joker. Meanwhile, the nation's police have responded to 911 calls numbering in the millions. Batman is awesome, and gets comic books. But very nearly every criminal investigation, he's not remotely involved in.

The numbers difference between Marines and the Departmento Munitorum is a bit larger than that between Batman and the total American police force.

>> No.21109228

Tauro Nicodemus, Age of Darkness, Iorn Within

Ultramarines Honour Guard who uses an Scutum shaped storm shield IIRC

not him, but pretty cool Ultra

>> No.21109246


In the new Horus Heresy stuff your regular Legionary Commanders are Centurions.

>> No.21109248

There is a extract from a book somewhere when a DA Chaplin thing is torturing a 'Fallen' who basically tells him that Johson, the greatest tactican of the Primarchs, who never ever lost a battle, was held up by forces on his way to Terra.

He was going to Terra, but he wasn't decided on who he supporting,,, Horus, worried that Russ was arriving and the possibility of Lion siding against him, he attacked. However, it was the Emperor who teleported onto Horus's barge with Custodians and Dorn. Anyway.... That's that. The reason he is hiding is to protect his shame AND when the Imperium is deep trouble, he'll rise again to protect it, to redeem himself.

>> No.21109257

Ultramarine fact:

Did you know that a single Ultramarine has killed more opponents with his knife than most other Space Marine Chapter companies.

>> No.21109274

Ha, that's perfect.

>> No.21109305

He's certainly taking the long view of it.

His original plan to become warmaster foiled, he simply decides to wait 10,000 years until he can show up and be handed the reigns.

>> No.21109308

Ultramarine fact:
Did you know that a Scout of the Ultramarines is better at shooting than a Captain in any other chapter.
Don't trust the crunch, that's bullshit.

>> No.21109328


more! More! I'm nearly there!

>> No.21109334

Ultramarine Fact: Roboute Guilliman was actually a more powerful Psyker than the Emperor and a better swordsman than Fulgrim.

He just hid it to make them feel better about themselves.

>> No.21109362

Wow, you guys are doing subtle groupthink retcons now.

It was Roboute and his fuck huge Legion, not Jonson, that was coming with Russ that forced Horus hand.

Its like you idiots claiming that Doombreed is Genghis Khan...when a Primarch is his obvious expy.

Grow the fuck up people.

>> No.21109366

I know it suffers from tinyhead, but I don't care. This picture is awesome.

>> No.21109375

Those looked like Nobs rather than Boys

>> No.21109379

As far as Ultramarines being awesome, how has this not been posted yet?

>> No.21109386

>implying that Doombreed isn't Ghengis Khan

>> No.21109387

Actually, judging by the pauldrons, the armor is apparently thick as fuck...

So it might not be tiny head afterall.

>> No.21109392



>> No.21109408

"The Armour of Fuckhueg is an ancient relic of the Ultramarines. It's power armour, only big as fuck."

>> No.21109413

They've got gear more akin to Slugga Boyz/Shoota Boyz as opposed to Nobs.
They may be in particularly shit gear, but the point remains that Not even Warbosses get that fucking big.

>> No.21109429

Where do you find this cool pics?

>> No.21109435


>> No.21109450

probably because Pasanius is a fag

>> No.21109451


>> No.21109475

>They just don't matter.
Say that to my face guardsman not on-vox then see what happens.

>> No.21109531


>Checks the numbers

Full-time law enforcement employed in the USA as of 2006: 800,000
Batmans: 1

There are fewer space marines in the Imperium than there are inhabited worlds. Round off some of the marginally-habitable shitholes, and get a ratio of about 1 to 1. Now, how many soldiers per planet, on average? Obviously some planets produce or garrison massively more than others, but when you add up the PDFs that are good enough to matter in a fight, the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial Navy (remember, a single warship has a crew of tens of thousands,) 1,000,000 per planet actually seems like a pretty lowball answer. Some planets are feudal, with a population of only a couple of million, but some are hiveworlds, with trillions. China, with a population of 1.3 billion, has over 2 million soldiers.

So really, a better comparison would be Batman vs. all the police on earth. So. Say you get mugged. I promise you, Batman's not going to show up. He's not even going to hear about it, because you got mugged in Belize, or Jakarta.

So, a citizen of an imperial world may think Space Marines are awesome, he may have a Space Marine t-shirt and read comics about space marines, but when the average world gets invaded the chances of the Space Marines ever showing up are about as good as Batman stopping a random rape in an alley in Bangkok. Lower, actually, because space marines travel in large groups, rather than operating individually to participate in as many conflicts as possible.

Most wars have no space marine involvement whatsoever. There just aren't enough of them to go around. Interesting corollary! The Horus Heresy only mattered because he commanded the Imperium's conventional troops. If he's just been leading half the space marines, it would have been a trivial insurrection, equivalent to a single squad of Navy SEALs going rogue. Dangerous, but not a threat to the government.

>> No.21109562


That's pic related!

>> No.21109589


A sane 40k fan? on /tg/ of all places?

what the fuck

>> No.21109621

IIRC his middle name is Augustus.
As in Julius Augustus Caesar.

Freakin' awesome, btw.
But they've got the same problem the theoretical Alpha Legion loyalists have: that in the mean time the environment you're raising your new troops in and the necessities of the propaganda are slowly eroding the sense of mission and true objectives.

On topic: Uriel Ventris giving a Guardsman a purity seal as thanks for saving his life.

>> No.21109639


Yes. This is why the Assassinorum is important.

It's also bigger than all Space Marine chapters combined.

Incidentally, the chances of a chapter of Marines being in the right place at the right time to swing the course of a war... is less likely than the chances of a tank battalion being in the right place at the right time to swing the course of the war. Because there are more tank battalions, and they're actually in the chain of command so the planning officers can use them strategically.

I really don't think you're getting how few space marines there are. There are fewer space marines than multi-kilometer space battleships. Them actually showing up to help is as rare as snow in august in Florida. It's possible! But, seriously, it's not likely enough to merit any consideration in your planning.

>> No.21109690

Stop using real GW numbers man.

The largest infantry charge in Imperial Guard history was less than the entirety of the German forces on the Eastern Front during Germany's invasion into Russia during 1941.

>> No.21109694

Marneus Calgar referring to a _Mayor_ as Master to set him at ease, while crouching so look him straight and level in the eye.

Marneus Calgar deciding to abandon the ancient warship Caesar to save it's crew instead of attempting to score a few more kills.

Varro Tigurius collapses from exhaustion during the defense of Castra Tanagra and he's carried back into battle by a volunteer litter of the people he, Calgar and 1st Company have been defending.

>> No.21109718

The Battle of Midway was basically won by half a bomber wing that got lost returning to Pearl Harbor, flew E. until they ran out of fuel, and happened to be coasting on fumes when they found the entire Japanese Aircraft Carrier Task Force steaming merrily along without a defensive screen up.
They sunk or crippled everything before crashing.

Shit certainly happens.

>> No.21109749


Banking on it happens is mentally retarded though. Well-wishing won't accomplish shit between the vast tracks that line this RARE EXCEPTIONS.

>> No.21109778

Apparently, nobody told him to hide. Or taught him how to hide, for that matter.
Must be a newfag from SB.

>> No.21109793


It certainly does. But that particular example does a lot to prove my point. First, it was unplanned, accidental. It wasn't "use of strategic force," it was luck. And second, it was half a bomber wing. Normal forces, finding themselves in a position to turn the tide, akin to my "tank battalion" example.

So: don't rely on miniscule numbers of superelite troops. Use your normal troops well, and hope that any lucky breaks happen to some of them instead of to your opponents.

It's often a matter of having someone in the right place at the right time. But for that to happen, you don't need one someone who is the BEST WARRIOR, you need a lot of someones.

>> No.21109850

Except that this is an era of satellite recon, psychic intelligence, and forcing the battle into areas that can't be bombarded into submission.
Oh and Scouts, of course.

Narrowing a gigantic warzone down to a few crucial locations that can be assaulted by specialized drop-troops is entirely plausible.

This idea that Space Marines are useless because the only way to fight is to Do The Evolution with IG is either badly informed or deliberately disengenuis.

You'll also notice that war in 40k is almost always unrestricted, so unlike the wars of modern history you can win by drop-podding straight into Hanoi if the defenses are degraded enough instead of moronically elaborate plans like Vietnam era Operation Rolling Thunder.

There are exceptions of course: Orks are notoriously flexible in their chain of command. Killing the leader of the army tends to change them from a horrible forward assault of attrition into an endless cleanup operation. Kroot, too, really.

>> No.21109921


Yes, recon, yes, crucial locations, yes, you're STILL not getting the SCALE involved here. Galactic war. Tens of billions of troops on either side. In these conditions, a "small, surgical strike force" is three million men. Narrowing the battle down to a few crucial locations means a couple of continents. The scale where 500 excellent soldiers can make a difference is several layers of fractal strategic decision making down. Forcing the enemy into a position where 500 marines could cut through them and make a difference is happening simultaneously at 6,000 locations at various points along the multiplanetary battlefront, and 5,999 of those missions are going to have to be done by IG stormtroopers because there aren't enough marines to matter.

>> No.21109949

the only thing i don't like about the ultra marines is the fame they for their battles against the tyranids. their sacrifices are absolutely smalltime compared to the scythes.

>> No.21110038

The idea that having a smaller number of superior equipped, superior trained troops is ineffective compared to mass numbers is so patently wrong I don't know how to refute it except to point to a bookshelf and say "military history"?

Space Marines are a rapid response force. They have a chain of command disconnected from the grinding, inefficient adminstration of the Imperium. They have their own facilities, their own supply lines. They are effectively autonomous military states or feifdoms. They can arrive at locations MONTHS in advance of conventional armies as a result, function effectively in almost any environment, do not need to sleep or eat with the same regularity as a normal soldier, operate in environment sealed armor...etc, etc, etc

>> No.21110056

Back in the HH days some of the legions numbered in the 100s of thousands though and they had control of huge fleets.

The Crusade was carried out nearly totally by Space Marines.

In the older fluff it was Russ and the Lion, I'm sure of that. There was some long as story about the history of both legions in White Dwarf ages ago. A big part of it detailed their epic journey to Terra together to lift the siege, including a part where the navigators all died on the Space Wolf flagship and Russ just did the navigation himself, though god knows what the thinking behind that was.

>> No.21110081

sorry for same fagging myself, wanted to add: it's also worth noting Space Marines are used as part of an overall combined arms strategy. By in large, the Imperium DOES rely on the IG to win battles. For IMPORTANT missions, they turn to the Space Marines.

IG are every day heroes doing everyday heroics. Space Marines are the Seal Teams or Paratroopers.

>> No.21110092

>Russ just did the navigation himself, though god knows what the thinking behind that was.

Simple, seeing the warp turns you insane, so russ sniffed it instead and followed the scent of the good beer.

>> No.21110199


You are putting forth a valid and reasonable proposal, wherein Space Marines are a small but vital and important part of the Imperial military machine. And it would be accurate, if there were about a thousand times as many Marines as there actually are. Your proposal is much more sensible than GWs.

Currently, there aren't enough of them to form SEAL teams. Imagine if there was a single Navy SEAL on the planet. He'd be an impressive fighter! He might wind up famous, and have movies made about him! But he, by himself, would not be enough of a force for the Pentagon to bother thinking about. A thousand SEALs, in teams of ten, those you can use as part of your military. A single guy is just not enough to matter.

That's what we're talking about here. Fewer than one marine per planet. Yes, small numbers of elite troops matter, but there still have to be enough of them to show up on a force org chart.

>> No.21110255

Can't we agree that while they are certainly effective as fighters, they are better used as propaganda?

When marines appear, three things happen:

1. The enemy dies in large numbers.
2. The Imperial Guardsmen fighting get massive boosts in morale.
3. Enemies in neighboring sectors get terrified. "Holy shit, they might come for us next!"

The quote, paraphrased is, "The enemies of the Imperium fear many things, but above all else, they fear the wrath of the Space Marines."

That fear is more important than any actual wrath. They are kept down by the fear that literal Angels of Death could appear.

>> No.21110256

The Space Marines have a huge cultural role to play in the Imperium though and despite that there are a tiny number of them they are always there in the most important conflicts, which are what GW tends to focus on.

>> No.21110275

They're also a real example of Imperial superiority over other species in terms of technology and ability.

>> No.21110302

Ultramarines are cowards. Lowly lickspittles!

>> No.21110321

>Can't we agree that while they are certainly effective as fighters, they are better used as propaganda?

I have no words.

>> No.21110371


Hence the Batman comparison. They're fantastic propaganda! Iconic and terrifying! Criminals may or may not be afraid of the police, but they're shit-scared of Batman.

But, just as a matter of numbers, they've got zero chance of being caught by Batman, and Batman's personal busts have a negligible effect on the crime rate. The FBI and Interpol don't count on Batman when they're planning operations; there's just one of him for the whole world, he's always gonna be busy somewhere else. Similarly, while the enemies of the Imperium hear about and fear the Space Marines, they're not gonna get killed by Space Marines, they're gonna get killed by PDF, Navy, and Guard. When an IG general plans out a war, he doesn't expect the Marines to show up and help; there aren't enough Marines to make them dropping in at all likely, even in a major war. When they do show up, the psychological effect is far more important than their actual military impact. "You are surrounded by three full swat teams in body armor with shotguns! We have helicopter overwatch, and reinforcements on the way! Surrender now!" "Eat me, copper!" "Also, someone said they saw Batman in the neighborhood!" "Oh, fuck, I give!"

>> No.21110409

Does anyone else find Dornian Heresy smurf armor sexy as fuck?

And the idea of a separate human faction that hasn't fallen to chaos makes me moist.

>> No.21110414

will reply later, busy tanking.
TSW, ftw.

>> No.21110425


>All Pauldrons

>> No.21110442

Don't they usually teleport or deep strike in and destroy whoever is in charge or board and cripple ships and the like?

If they are there I'm fairly certain that it has a big impact, however rare it is that they might turn up.

>> No.21110445


Yeah, but again, as a propaganda piece.

"We don't have enough of this technology to equip our armies with it, or even our special forces like IG stormtroopers, ok really we've just got a couple sets, but they sure are impressive!" It's the 40k equivalent of a pavilion at the World's Fair.

>> No.21110470

What I'm saying is that the fear of Space Marines is fully justified. Because while there are barely any of them and they almost certainly will never show up, god help you if they do.

>> No.21110541

Like the Ultramarines, this thread is quite reasonable. Balanced discussions on the role of Space Marines in the defence of the Imperium? No flame wars or trolling? Keep it up, elegen/tg/eltlement.

>> No.21110570

That's the negative spin on it though.

It's more like, "These guys are so fucking awesome we don't even need more of them! The flashlight you've been given is more than adequate, the Space Marines will only turn up when something really bad happens and this isn't it." from the Imperial point of view.

>> No.21110582

Though obviously your post is more the reality of the situation.

>> No.21110597



Truth be told, for every war a won by, every Craftworld annihilated by, a Space Marine Chapter, there's an enormous number of conflicts/wars going on elsewhere fought entirely and only by, Imperial Guardsmen.

>> No.21110635

>Necron Deathstar wrecks entire sectors of Imperial space
>Imperial fleet and Guard are powerless to stop it
>Took the sacrifice of a Space Marine chapter to stop the Death Star

>Tau Empire expands none stop into Imperial space
>Guard are powerless to stop their advance
>Took the intervention of the Space Marines to kick the whole Tau expansion back

>Victory against the Nids is near impossible without the Space Marines
>Only the efforts of the Space Marines are keeping the Tyranids in check

These are few examples. When Guardfags say moronic things like ''SM are no needed'', all you need is to look at the fluff to realize they are full of shit.

Truth is, gentlemen, the Imperium stands not because of the Guardsmen. It stand inspite of their weakness because HIS Angels of Death are doing their eternal duty to their Emperor.

>> No.21110671


>fan wank
>MASSIVE fan wank
>Only one Hivefleet invasion, which still featured the Imperial Navy heavily deciding the outcome not the Ultramarines, and the rest have only been forestalled due to intervention by a HUMAN INQUISITOR and other non-Marine elements

yeah sure. keep telling yourself that.

>> No.21110688

Not needed*


Have you been so mad you just can't into grammar? Also picture related.

>mfw Guardsmen bullshit

>> No.21110696

The Space Marines are kind of a relic to a past age really, they're too useful to get rid of due to the fact that some stuff is just unstoppable without them but way too dangerous to ever go back to the days when they were the mainstay of Imperial forces.

Thinking about it, it would have made a lot more sense for the Emperor to have gone into robotics rather than genetics, what with the whole Chaos Gods issue.

>> No.21110697

>Space Marines
>not getting stomped by the 'nids just like the Mechanicus

Get fucked, man. 'Nids getting delayed is all Kryptman.

>> No.21110709

they did the whole robot thing. remember how it turned out?

>> No.21110743

>Implying the Ultramarines didn't break the back of Kraken
>Implying Calgar didn't break the Swarmlord

Space Marines win wars and actually achieve something meaningful.

Remember that well, Guardfags

>> No.21110744


Yeah, sometimes. I mean, it's ALWAYS a nightmare when more enemy forces show up than you were expecting, but the Marines are particularly irritating. Since there aren't enough of them to do much in a pitched battle, they go straight for terror attacks and doing their best to wreck your shit.

Of course, if you're reading a book about the Marines, there's always going to be a big high-profile target for them to aim at, a leader to assassinate or a flagship to take down or an absurdly vital pass to defend ("If you hold this position, you halt the enemy advance!" "...Really, sir? Like, this one narrow valley? There aren't any other ways through the mountain range at all? Or around, or over?" "NO. THIS IS THE CRITICAL LOCATION.")

I'm kind of amused by the concept of the Marines showing up, only to find that the enemy doesn't have any grand figurehead or crucial keystone war machine to destroy.

>"Right. So. You Guard laddies are fighting Tau? We'll cripple their flagship!"
>"Umm... not sure that would do much, sir. Their fleet's a bunch of medium to small vessels, no one of them is particularly important. And the bombardment is being done by Mantas. Couple hundred of them."
>"Their leadership, then! Where are they?"
>"Uhh... not sure, sir. They know we have assassins, so they've been careful with the counterintelligence."
>"Fine! A daring assault on their base!"
>"They have, what was it... let's see. They have 27 primary bases and 412 secondary bases. Which were you thinking of hitting?"
>"General! We've just recieved word that an Ethereal has come to the front to inspire the Tau troops!"

>> No.21110746

for those of you that haven't read the dornian heresy, here you go
It's basically a "what if" scenario where traitors are loyalists and loyalists are heretics, and the ultramarines are all "yo fuck the Imperium, we science now"

>> No.21110771

That wasn't robots, that was AI.
AdMech still uses robots, they just don't share with any of the factions that have codexes.

>> No.21110789

Except not.
Except that Marines, unlike cops, aren't scattered all over the place and reactionary.
So what if a given war is half the galaxy wide? The SM perogative is to either be where the fighting is worst (morale/heavy support, see also Armageddon 1&2) or to be where the highest value targets are (HQ strikes).
This argument of yours is like ignoring Air Power. "So what if we can blow up a tank? Or a hundred tanks? We can't use those planes to blow up buildings because there are too many!"

So, nope. Little too much IG STRONK propaganda, few too many Batman metaphors.

>> No.21110823

Critical to the whole equation is GW working very hard to keep that Decapitation model of victory necessary to the whole setting.
Hive Tyrants. Avatars of Khaine. Warbosses. Chaos Champions. Every and always "Kill the head and the body dies."

>> No.21110824

Kind of forgot about the Dark Age of Tecnology there for a moment.

Did they ever state what caused the AI to go rogue? Or it just kind of assumed that's what AI does when you give it an super advanced army of robots.

I was thinking that when I typed what you replied to. The 40k universe does tend to run on narrativium rather than logic though, so luckily there is usually a fortified bunker full of all the enemy commanders or a narrow pass to defend. The Tau are kind of like a reasonable, sensible force then dumped into this universe and even they can't quite resist helping the Space Marines out.

>> No.21110833

Motherfuck, there are a lot of Imperial Guard Regiments.

>> No.21110847


>Books and codexes about Space Marines talk about Space Marines winning fights.

Shocking. While the trillions of men of the Navy and Guard were fighting a hundred major wars in a hundred subsectors, a thousand Marines managed to meaningfully contribute to one facet of the fight against one of the thousand threats to the Imperium.

Thank god that splinter fleet could be defeated by killing a big monster. If it had been a distributed intelligence, like and ACTUAL hive mind, rather than a golden snitch setup so the marines could win tha fite, one thousand men wouldn't have been able to do shit about it, no matter how big their shoulderpads were.

>> No.21110882

Aren't most of them organically based though? I can never remember just how far the Imperium goes in terms of AI, the full ban like in Dune or compromise allowing limited intelligence.

>> No.21110896

There are probably millions, going by the numbers often quoted about the Gaurd and the number of inhabited planets.

>> No.21110917

40k: Every fight takes place on a hill.

>> No.21110935

Can we just agree that just 1000 Marines are capable of doing the Job of millions maybe Billions of Guardsmen? Can we just agree that the Marines, unlike the Guardsmen, don't just fight wars THEY WIN THEM!

It's undisputed fact in the fluff. You guys are denying it instead of DEALING WITH IT!

>> No.21110980

Autonomous AI is banned. The kaban machine being the prime example. Preprogrammed "AI" is not autonomous and is widespread, but why it's known as "AI" when it's literally not intelligent is beyond my understand.

>> No.21111018

They have all kinds, ranging from servitors (flesh with metal components) to robots with brains in jars connected to circuits to 0% organic.

They all suffer from the same problem because of different reasons.
Servitors are essentially lobotomized people, so they have no initiative and such. Something similar happens to robots with brains in jars.

The last kind is 100% inorganic and their problem is that they are not actually sentient - they just carry out what they were programmed for. Their programming is highly limited, however, so they work much better with supervision and remote control, although the expensive ones can work on their own.

Most of the stuff about robots if from Rogue trader and shit like that, I think that GW has been talking about robots less and less as time went on.

>> No.21111036

Or, perhaps, more reasonably let's just say that both organisations have a different job to do.

>> No.21111040


Here's the deal on robots, AI, and servitors.

It turns out that an intelligence without a soul, or a wholly artificial thinking machine, is SUPER EASY for chaos to influence. AIs go crazy. Robots wind up possessed. It's a bad scene.

So, Mechanicus doctrine ordains that anything that makes decisions (even when those decisions are what steps to take to follow simple orders,) must have some organic brainstuff involved in the process. Servitors (what you think of when you think of mechanicus robots) are actually very stupid, lobotomized cyborgs. There's some brain in there. Big cogitators (40k computers) usually have brain inside, too.

This makes the system much more difficult for Chaos to take over, and much less likely to go on a destroy-all-humans kick. Actual robots and AI are big-deal, nuke-the-site-from-orbit tech heresy.

>> No.21111049

>Not understanding how a small number of soldiers can significantly change the outcome of a major war.
Shit this happens all the fucking time, one very known case is the Battle of Thermopylae where roughly 8 thousand soldiers stood against at least 100 thousand (some say 200-300 thousand) soldiers. Sure they lost that battle but it changed the entire course of the war.
>tl;dr small number of soldiers can change the outcome of wars, even if they lose. However Having trillions of troops fighting for your side does help a lot. So basically don't bitch because without either the Space Marines or the Imperial Guard the Imperium would fall.

>> No.21111075

Wait, shit, who told you how a hive mind works?

Shit shit shit shit. We KNEW someone would figure it out.

Oh well, skipping to plan 1½#A#"123B then.

>> No.21111081

1, hey mat
2. an avaerage marine company is worth 1 maybe 2 regiment of IG tops

>> No.21111100

>This is why the Assassinorum is important.
The Assassinorum is used more often against internal, singular threats than externa-

>It's also bigger than all Space Marine chapters combined.

>I really don't think you're getting how few space marines there are
Says the guy who thinks there are well over a million assassins, despite there only being six individual temples.

>But, seriously, it's not likely enough to merit any consideration in your planning.
Right, because all of your plans are a hundred years out of date by the time you arrive. The Marines are so vital because they act outside of the grinding bureaucracy of the imperium.

> Them actually showing up to help is as rare as snow in august in Florida
It's as rare as an Ork rok hitting your idyllic agri-world, or a Hive tendril coming into the sector.

Space Marines, by the word of god are a highly effective force in-setting. Trying to debate the logistics of a galactic civilization you're greatly misunderstanding with me is just pointless banter.

>> No.21111105

Imperial citizens, if you feel a scratching noise at the root of your skull, this is entirely normal. Go about your normal business. As usual.

>> No.21111126

I think they turned up more recently in the First and Only books. The 'Iron Men' that caused all the bother I mean.

I also seem remember a short story in a collection from GW, 'The Maelstrom' I think, featuring some sinister AI trying to gain freedom from somewhere other, might have involved Chaos too.

Is it ever actually stated that the AI followed Chaos when they turned during the Age of Technology? It seems likely, just wondering what the fluff actually said if there is any.

>> No.21111134

And here I thought 40k was about silly space fighting and over the top heroics

>> No.21111138

Why is that this thread disregards capabilty of marines to organise and/or subvert regular humans?
Why it is that no thought is given to differing value of various worlds? There are less marines then worlds in Imperium, but enough of them to cover key ones.

>> No.21111141

>Andy Chambers currently works for Blizzard

Huh. How did that happen.

>> No.21111145


No one's denying that 8 thousand can make a difference against 100 thousand.

We're denying that 8 thousand can make a difference against 100 BILLION.

There's David vs. Goliath. Then there's David vs. The Entire Population Of Planet Earth.

>> No.21111163

Here's what I could dig up on robots on such short notice.
Keep in mind that these are fucking old.

>> No.21111169

Money, I guess.

He's a nice guy, having met him twice. I hate whatever hand he had in the C'Tan and Xel'Naga though.

>> No.21111177


>Says the guy who thinks there are well over a million assassins, despite there only being six individual temples.

But obviously there's zero assassins, seeing as there's six zeroes in one million. It fits so easily, silly anon.

>> No.21111185

Just these 2 pics.

>> No.21111187

>It turns out that an intelligence without a soul, or a wholly artificial thinking machine, is SUPER EASY for chaos to influence. AIs go crazy. Robots wind up possessed. It's a bad scene.

You know, I keep hearing this repeated. On /tg/. And I'm not sure where people get this from. Even the cryptic "men of iron" stuff, people assume it has to do with chaos, and/or assumes it has to do with robots going KILL ALL HUMANS!!!! for no reason.

Yet the modern Imperium and the original Imperium have something in common: in both cases, its humans are oppressive dicks "because we have to murder and oppress FOR SURVIVAL. Unless we are MAXIMUM HOSTILITY TO EVERYONE, nonhumans may try to kill us." So I see no reason whatsoever to think that it was a case of AIs going crazy, and more likely yet another instance of humans throwing the first blow. Why should we assume Dark Age of Tech humans were any less vicious and unreasonable than the original and modern Imperium were?

Neither the tau drones nor the self-controlled drone kill ships the Deathwatch uses to stealth-genocide planets have gone crazy yet, (and might I add what a "tempting fate" move it'd be to put undetectable exterminatus capable ships under the control of AI if its as unpredictable as your blend of fanfic suggests?) and every last time we see Chaos corrupted machines, its because some dick ass sorcerer performed a big time evil ritual on it.

Also, chaos is mostly an unknown threat. People keep saying that the Ecclesiarchy and Admech are the way they are because of Chaos, but the policies of the Admech by far outdate any encounter with Chaos, and its an important tenet of the Ecclesiarchy that daemons do not exist.

So where does this shit come from?

>> No.21111216

It's not really though is it. Since it's impossible to apply those 100s of billions to any given area.

The whole point of the Space Marines is that they select where and when to strike. They aren't ever going to have to face this huge mass in a pitched battle.

I always assumed that it was a direct crib from Dune, along with the navigators. That is, no Chaos involvement.

>> No.21111268


>Why should we assume Dark Age of Tech humans were any less vicious and unreasonable than the original and modern Imperium were?

They didn't wipe out other species in the galaxy, despite that being within their capabilities, they simply made peace with the reasonable ones.

>> No.21111308


>> No.21111320

I'm just saying. "There was a war between what were probably humans against what were probably machines" has 101 explanations other than "AI -automatically- will fucking kill you" or "Chaos can randomly possess toasters now with no warp access required, despite that all possessed toasters are so on account of obvious magic rituals or Warp exposure."

>> No.21111323

I have to say, the space marine mod for cortex command is pretty darn fun. Shame CC is a shit game.

>> No.21111353

Because its either that it we just write it up to "everything everywhere wants to kill humans"

Now, field too long, so count by paragraph instead of me greentexting quotes:

I don't remember the details, but this whole thing started back in the colonization era. Humans spread around and made an alliance or trading agreement or something with the first alien race they came across. Everything was fine for a while until something bad happened(invasion? I can't remember) and all the aliens sold out humanity to try and save their own hides.
It all went downhill from there.

The tau have been around for less than 10k years and they started using their drones and AI assistants fairly recently. They also had almost no contact with Chaos and their souls are of negligible strength. Big C just doesn't give a flying fuck about them.
The drone ships have brains inside.

>snip because field too long
AdMech had its policies since forever because Iron Men and they introduced even more paranoia into their rulebook after the Horus Heresy.
The whole demons don't exist thing is a lie the high ranking people tell the lower ranking people to keep them from going out and looking for chaos.

>So where does this shit come from?
books, WD, codexes, fridge logic etc.

>> No.21111366


A full chapter of space marines is fighting an enemy army of 100 billion.

But the marines choose when and where to strike, and are the best warriors in the galaxy! The mission is a huge success, the thousand marines each kill 100 enemy soldiers and suffer no losses!

The enemy army doesn't even notice that they lost one city on one planet on one front of the war. They have suffered 0.0000001% losses. The effect on the overall strategic picture is, basically, nothing.

We're talking about wars big enough that no one city, no engagement where 1000 men can make a difference will determine the outcome of the war. No facility or commander or warship is that critical; armies are designed to cope with losses, and an army of billions can simply ignore the losses inflicted by a couple of thousand men. They blew up a fuel depot. There are millions. They crippled the flagship. The fleet is massive. They assassinated the head general. The second most senior general takes over. They don't fucking matter.

>> No.21111385

What is he standing on?

>> No.21111396

Oh yeah, I did agree with your point.

>The whole demons don't exist thing is a lie the high ranking people tell the lower ranking people to keep them from going out and looking for chaos.

Kind of a lose lose situation really, you either give people the info to seek them out or leave them unprepared if they happen to encounter them.

>> No.21111399

....which is why they make a point of taking out 100-1000 of the top generals.

>> No.21111402

>> No.21111440

Three companies of space marines can (without support) subjugate an entire civilized world.

In less than a week.

And not just "we killed da general! Let's go home!", they crippled it's military to the point that there were serious concerns for the planet's future.

The canon doesn't need to follow any logic other than it's own.

>> No.21111444


Space marines greatly amuse me because of how many fights in 40k are on a planetary scale (somehow) and how as a result the enemy will often never, collectively, notice the impact the astartes had.

"So, how'd you boys manage to defeat the ULTRAMARINES? I heard they were the bestest space marines ever."
"There were space marines? Guess they must have been blown up by artillery or something."

>> No.21111470


>books, WD, codexes, fridge logic etc.

I find it odd that if this is mentioned in books, WD, and codexes that nobody in the entire frikkin universe can cite it. With the /tg/ always going "if you build your own kind of toaster, daemons will possess it," it is odd that all examples contradict this fan theory.

Its illogical on many levels; daemons don't just appear out of friggin nowhere, much adieu is made of tau being difficult to possess, but they at least have -a- warp presence, they're not inanimate objects.

>> No.21111484

What I was saying is that they would never fight an army of 100 billion.

Why would they? If they are all on one planet they nuke it from orbit, if it's a huge fleet then the Navy have to deal with it.

Either way, despite it being fairly illogical, which I've not disagreed with, they are hugely important in the 40k universe. There is always an essential, irreplaceable commander to kill, always a narrow area to defend and always one key chunk of infrastructure which is required for everything else to function. They make perfect sense in context, but are completely redundant outside of it.

>> No.21111497

I don't find it difficult to believe that 3 fightin' ships (each company has their own fightin' ship of some kind, right?) could destroy an entire planet's military with lance fire. It makes perfect sense.

>> No.21111501

>Kind of a lose lose situation really, you either give people the info to seek them out or leave them unprepared if they happen to encounter them.
Well, kind of.
The idea is that the higher ranking people are strong and loyal enough to resist chaos.
If the lower ranking people ever meet chaos, they either kill them or, if they are too important to kill, mind wipe them.

Considering the sheer scale of the imperium, it works out pretty well in the end, as it is a fairly cost effective solution.

>> No.21111506

Re: AI.
That's a valid point. DAoT Humanity are super-pricks as much as modern 40k Humanity. It's entirely plausible they just fucked it up.

Also, good current examples. A+.

>> No.21111514

Bitch, please. The only thing slowing me and my master down is the fact that we've learned we quite love the taste of greenskins over here in the Octarius system.

And now, your petty inquisition has realized just what they did; they sent us to a place where the food reproduces almost as fast as we can eat it. That's why you and the eldar are both trying to stop us there too now.

>> No.21111517


>that Smurf in the centre

"Oh, Battle-Brothers! What times we live in, that blood flows like wine, that war grows like a disgusting tumour on this galaxy of thine! To be a Space Marine in such times, truly must be to be nothing more than filth waiting to be stirred by the cosmic Swiffer broom!"

>> No.21111527


They're not anywhere near each other, you don't have enough scouts to determine where they are, and even if you could and were totally invincible you couldn't kill enough officers to matter. Just from fucking travel time, if nothing else. Kill a thousand officers every week. The army is 100 billion. It doesn't give a fuck if you kill the 1000 dudes in the fanciest hats, any more than the United States would surrender if you assassinated the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Not all the joint chiefs, that's more on the order of killing the million top officers. Just the one guy. He gets replaced. A month later the field commanders learn that he was assassinated, but they've been following their assignments in the meantime, and a shuffle at the top doesn't mean a damn thing to them.

Billions, man. Every member of the chapter could kill one per second forever and they wouldn't be able to outpace population growth.

>> No.21111534

Not here, anyway.
Try going to the SB VS section and lurk 40K threads for a while, if you have the stomach for it.

>> No.21111538

only one ship (a Battle barge, which carries up to three companies)

And it's explicitly mentioned that they did the fighting in ground assault.

Does it make sense? No, not really. But that's beside the point, and thinking with real-world values rather than 40k values.

>> No.21111547

Anti-ship mud-to-space ordinance and city-sized void shields trump orbital bombardment.
Also being assumed is that the IoM, the murderous Fascist Theocracy, hasn't got some Blanche-esque reason to go down there in person and rape the holdouts.

>> No.21111556

Also you'll notice that the plan everyone in this thread is suggesting (attack only the higher ranking officers in a surgical strike) is exactly what the Inquisitor suggested

and the Marines said "fuck that" and killed EVERYONE

>> No.21111560

That's not just three companies of space marines.
That's three companies of fluffmarines, they eat armies, planets and common sense for breakfast.

>> No.21111562

You forget how rare competence is in the universe of 40k.

>> No.21111570

Think about 3 million men when talking about planets here.
A planet holds 6 billion earth size,
6 million Imperial guard wont make much difference. imagine 6 million orks trying to take over a population with over a few billion. It doesn't work, what with the PDF and such on the planet. Small space marine legions make sense. You have to attack on the Space marine's terms. You can't leave a base of the most badass mutha fuckers behind your lines, they'll just fuck you up

>> No.21111581

I've no idea what point you're trying to make any more. How does this army of 100 billion even exist? What does the number even matter anyway, the number of ships they have would be the only issue.

>> No.21111583


>Anti-ship mud-to-space ordinance and city-sized void shields make orbital bombardment take longer. Like, you've got to keep your distance and shove some asteroids toward them instead of parking in low orbit and just lancing the chucklefucks. But hey, it's not like they can maneuver.

>> No.21111607

Blue chair

>> No.21111627

Wow, I've still got that issue of White Dwarf. Massive nostalgia rush there.

>> No.21111727

I love Thorpe

unless he's writing Eldar

>> No.21111749

I still remember the drama from the 3rd edition Eldar Codex.

>> No.21111791

I don't think that Drama has actually stopped yet

>> No.21111799

I love assumptions about unlimited resources and unlimited successful application of force being real things even in a universe as nutso as 40k.

>> No.21112028

This was a good thread. I had fun. Thanks, guys!

No sarcasm, I really do enjoy debating sci-fi strategy and logistics with fellow nerds. I know it's unlikely anyone's going to change their minds, but still, I'd rather talk shit with you losers than with pretty much anyone else. I mean, this could have been an argument about SPORTS. No space-murder involved at all! Fuck that.

Thanks for being grognards, /tg/.

>> No.21112105

Agreed. There's nothing like a nice, reasoned debate about an utterly ridiculous subject.

>> No.21112171

At the very least you can call people losers (or other more colourful terms) without a guilty conscience here.

>> No.21112295

In fairness, the Ultramarines didn't stop hive fleet Behemoth; it was the realm of Ultramar that stopped hive fleet Behemoth. The two may be similar and ruled by the same man, but there is a difference:

Ultramarines are A Space Marine Chapter.

The Realm of Ultramar is a Empire-within-the-Imperium of 500+ inhabited worlds, Home to the Ultramarines Chapter and a number of their successor chapters, dedicated battlefleets of the Imperial navy, forge worlds with attendant Titan legions, numerous founded regiments of Imperial guard and many, many more of PDF.

Can you see why the latter was required to stop the hive fleet?

>> No.21112392

>it was the realm of Ultramar that stopped hive fleet Behemoth.
No, it was the Ultramarines and a good chunk of the Segmentum Solar (?) battle fleet. But mostly the Ultramarines.

Remember, Behemoth was blunted at Macragge even before the navy arrived. And up until that point it had merely been the marines acting against the Hive Fleet. (There was actually a good bit of BFG fluff on the matter, Behemoth reshaped how the Codex deals with space combat pretty significantly)

And they were nearly annihilated because of it! Downplaying their contributions against behemoth is silly. The navy delivered the killing blow, but the bulk of the work was done by the smurfs.

>> No.21112508

>despite there only being six individual temples.
That's bullshit. There are numerous temples scattered throughout the galaxy. It has always been so.
When they got around to making Assassin models in second edition, they built four models and invented four example temples- much like how Doombreed & co were just example Daemon Princes.
One of them was loosely based on the Callidus temple Ian Watson had invented for his novels, the rest were all-new.

The generic Imperial Assassin, though, remained a unit choice, and one of the most flexible in the game with access to virtually any combination of Imperial equipment.

>> No.21112519


Ultramarine fact:

A single company of Ultramarines is equivalent to nearly *50* whole regiments of Imperial Guard.

>> No.21112567



Paying any attention to the 1000 chapters of 1000 thing is stupid. It's an obvious error of scale.

Just like when GW said that the Leman Russ and Land Raider, incredibly well armored behemoth tanks, have armor vastly less effective than that of a modern Abrams.

Just like when GW claimed that like 7 1000 man regiments could retake entire planets.


According to what they say about the role of Space Marines, there obviously must be a far vaster number of them in the galaxy to have the effect that they obviously do. A single company can and have retaken planets, thus Space Marines must either be incredibly, ludicrously potent, or have greater numbers than previously indicated.

>> No.21112608

how has this not been posted yet?

Ultras boss around the highlords of terra like they were children.

>> No.21112620

I like my ultras as both romans and reasonable.

>> No.21112633

No, 50 chapters, each of whom has 10 companies which can each retake an entire average planet can boss around High Lords

And by 'boss around' I mean they can get the High Lords to stop being squabbling children.

>> No.21112653

Fuck yeah. Especially when they work with other chapters. I forget, but there was this one lovely bit of fluff with Imperial Fists and Ultramarines working together, succeeding, and effectively honorably brofisting away.

>> No.21112682

>> No.21112735

>One of the Space Marines should call himself Emperor

Nigger, you just went full heretic.

>> No.21112737 [DELETED] 

My favorite Calgar drawing.

>> No.21112761

>this badass assault marine

>> No.21112793

That kind of makes sense, since any larger target would just get slagged from orbit.

But I see your point.

>> No.21112795

well, by "boss around" they mean "choosing the twelve high lords"

the beheading saw all twelve killed. The remaining factions were squabbling over who got the seats

effectively, those 50 chapter masters had more influence than the hierarchy of the entire imperium.

>> No.21112801

I have to say, I'm always impressed with people like you guys. I mean, the creativity involved in all this lore is outstanding. You take a game that has a set storyline, but then manage to ADD to it in a meaningful way, not just "OMG MY UNITS IS BESTEST", but in a way that makes sense within the continuity. Thats almost as hard or harder than starting from scratch and creating a whole new world for something like D&D. Keep up the good work motherfuckers.

>> No.21112813

>> No.21112838

It read more like they showed up, gave everyone a meaningful stare, and kind hinted that candidates should be chosen NOW, rather than actually choosing them.

>> No.21112924

I always viewed it more like he radioed them saying "I'll be on the surface of Terra with 49 other chapter masters in 30 minutes. If new lords still have not been chosen by that time we will be having... strong words with the lot of you"

>> No.21112959

The point stands. No one opposed them, they all just bowed their heads and obliged.

And to be honest, with the things chapter masters have been shown to do, I can't blame them.

>> No.21113147

>No one opposed them, they all just bowed their heads and obliged.

Ah, no. The government was in gridlock, some chapter masters arrived and mediated a solution. Nowhere is it said they dictated a solution, nowhere is it said they were unopposed, nowhere is it said that the marines were so cool and awesome and all the lords were so scared that they wet their pants and begged to be told what to do. There was a closed-door meeting. Probably some shouting on all sides. But it didn't escalate to armed conflict, there were apparently no fistfights, and they worked things out.

The quote is phrased to put the marines in the best light, but it seems like there was a bureaucratic squabble and the Marines were able to be impartial mediators because they didn't have a dog in the fight (there's no marine high lord.)

>> No.21113249

>clearly does not understand ork reproduction
>clearly does not understand ork motivation
They would want to break everything, not subjugate it.

>> No.21113394

Suppose it was left deliberately (or accidentally) vague.

>> No.21113489

Like just about everything else in the setting.
Grotesque ambiguity is fail.

>> No.21113558

Works for me. Going into too much mystique shattering detail was the reason the Horus Heresy novels sucked.

>> No.21113579

I don't mind it so much on it's own, but it does horrible things to a fanbase

especially when the actually concrete information has been so thinly spread over the past 20~ years

I really wish I could just grab a copy of all the sealed setting/design documents people like Rick Priestly and Jes Goodwin laid out for the beginning of 2nd edition..

>> No.21113580

The Ultramarines have, and always will be awesome.

It's just a shame so many are so shallow that something like simple slander could turn them so vehemently against the chapter.

>> No.21113738

It is hard to like even a good chapter when it maligns equally glorious warriors. I myself, despite my liking of the Ultramarines, find certain of their followers frustratingly annoying, as an Imperial Fist

>> No.21113786

>maligns equally glorious warriors

40K is grimdark not noblebright. Expect everyone to be a dick.

>> No.21113839

Here's some of what I'd want:
How does X Work?
-Armor on tanks. Fuck Crunch (it's all AV14 LOL), I want a definitive statement saying the Leman Russ is a mass-produced-PoS compared to an ancient, irreplacable Land Raider. Not because I have some epic hardon for the LR, but because that's how the rest of the damn setting works.
Old loot > new shit.

Really that is it. We know about Warp travel, about Daemonic incursion, possession, and banishment. We know about tons of other crap.
The few really divisive topics are the ones that are both poorly explained and commonplace.
Look at Shuriken Rifles.
They're kinda dumb. They shoot plastic/crystal disks at near-lightspeed velocities, yet have really shitty range and are apparently spray-and-pray-grade imprecise. They don't actually use magnetic physics or chemical propellant, they instead accelerate the shot by coughing it out.
I'm serious. I can't remember the exact word GW uses to describe their firing method but the actual definition of that term is like how a throat expels something stuck in it. A muscular contraction that ripples through the passage.
That's how a Shuriken Weapon fires.
By spitting shots. Like some Tyranid shit.
But no one cares. Shit don't matter, because it's neither commonplace nor contradictory.

There are, and should remain, plenty of mysteries and enigmas and plain strange crap.
But basic shit. BASIC SHIT.
Needs to be clearly, globally defined.
And I want my copy signed in Dan Abnett's blood.
Yes I mad.

>> No.21113853

>How does X Work?
Like they'd ever give be able to give an explanation that'd satisfy /tg/.

>> No.21113912

.....well, GW could at least try....

>> No.21114417

Hh era the sm counted un hundred of thousands a chapter. Did they just grab everyone and kill off millions of people who couldn't handle the conversion to marines? Could you sign up for marines just like IG? That's been bothering me for a while when I think of them landing on a planet and converting/killing the entire male population just to fuel the crusades.

>> No.21114459


People that lived in the area of space ruled by the Ultramarines gladly gave up their sons to try out for recruitment. It was something to be very proud of to say that one of your sons made it into the Ultramarines.

>> No.21114472


Also, they didn't grow in size due to more/faster recruiting. They grew the largest because they fought the most efficiently and took the least casualties, and also because their worlds were the most efficient in terms of production for both food, material, and recruits.

Also, there's the whole thing of them not being slaughtered because they were sent away by Horus before the Heresy happened.

Their numbers took a steep decline when they were blindsided during the Heresy but they still made it back with the largest Legion.

>> No.21114509

How much cross polination is there with spacebattles?

>> No.21114551


That's not what he's asking about. Lemme see if I can rephrase his question:

As of current lore, becoming a Space Marine is incredibly difficult and exclusive. It's a long, careful process, recruiting only the best of the best, training and selecting, narrowing down to the very few strongest, smartest, and toughest candidates available. This results in current-era numbers of marines. So, how were recruiting practices different in the Horus Heresy era, when the chapters were much larger? Did they accept more people? Pressgang them? Throw a lot of people at the conversion process and see who survived?

>> No.21114583

Purity and physical standards were much more lax (training too, to be honest). They just wanted numbers. It's why the heresy happened in the first place (chucklefucks like Erebus getting in)

The first thing Guilliman did with the codex was introduce the extremely stringent requirements for accepting applicants.

>> No.21114596

Or you know, Astartes blitzing around at 150kmh and dodging tank fire with little trouble and blitzing around from victim to victim eith naught but a chainsword so fast that the best way to engage them is saturation bombardment.
And hey are litteraly as tough as tanks with mechanical accuracy. As in, they can kill a squad of guardsmen as fast or faster than the bolter can spitbout the rounds on full auto.
The only way it works is if the super hardcore ultrabadass fluff marines are the real deal.

>> No.21114664

Actually from what I read, not so much. I've always explained it to myself as back then the technology was better undertood and implemented. Therefore they could use recruits that would be rejected now. Older men, like the Dark Angels high command, and perhaps less physically, and mentally fit, since the mistakes of, and gross incompetence of the current crop of apothecaries were not a problem back then.

From what I have read the stringnet requirements have come about over time. Basically as the chapters have lost more of the finely tuned tech to ensure survival of lesser grade chocies, those have been phased out as the loss to pass ratio continues to grow. More rejects, more failures as the knowledge to save them is lost.

>> No.21114710

And the greatest of them all, were the Ultramarines.

>> No.21114743


We're talking about fluff marines. We're discussing a scenario where a single marine is as significant a battlefield force as three tanks. In this scenario, there are still not enough marines to matter.

Imagine a single soldier ant who is the BEST ant. It takes him under a second to engage and destroy an enemy ant. He keeps doing this, one kill per second, tirelessly. Now imagine that all of North America is covered in anthills. He doesn't matter. Even if he's beelining straight for queens, just going from hill to hill massacring guards and biting queens' heads off, he doesn't matter. He's not gonna make a dent. There's being a big drinker, and then there's trying to drink the ocean.

>> No.21114776

And entire worlds have been conquered by a space marine company. Or less.

Marines, according to fluff, obviously DO matter, given that nearly every important conflict in fluff has involved and often hinged on Space Marines, so the numbers must be wrong, or some other factor of their efficiency must be unknown to us.

>> No.21114960


I think it's more that most of the fluff is codexes about marines, novels about marines, and GW campaigns where people have to be allowed to play whatever faction they like. So, the millions of wars with no marine involvement don't get mentioned much.

>> No.21115066

No. Everythng about this post is wrong. Go die in a fire.

>> No.21115092

I nevertheless think that Marines are rather more prominent than the 'drop in an ocean' approach you are taking. Now, I do think that Marines aren't commonplace, but I think it's more like dozens or hundreds of wars with no marine involvement. Mostly because every major or minor crusade has minor/major marine involvement and no one goes "OH MY GOODNESS THE ANGELS OF DEATH HAVE GRACED US WITH THEIR MAGNIFICENT AND RARE PRESENCE, LIKE THAT OF A ENDANGERED BIRD SPECIES." Plus, usually Marine-involved conflicts don't last more than a few months to a year, and given near constant warring that's a lot of wars won or influenced in a decade.

>> No.21115142

Assume an Astartes with a Power Sword can kill those three tanks in less than a minute while dodging or ignoring return fire.

Imagine if 10 Astartes with Thunder Hammers and Melta Bombs and Bolters could reasnoably take on the Coalition Force of tanks from Desert Storm and win with few if any casualties. With Bolter fire being directed down the barrels of tanks in full auto.

Think if the main limiting factor is how fast they can run. Or Fly with the Assault flypacks.

Now understand?

>> No.21115168

>Horus Heresy-era Ultramarine numbers

I don't know if there ever was an official source for it, but I've heard some fan conspiracy theories that surviving elements of the two Lost Legions were incorporated into the Ultramarines.

>> No.21115174

Right. "Purity" being a byword for "fuck we can't take that guy either!"

>> No.21115216

>The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the gene-seed of several Space Marine Legions. These defects had been exacerbated by the accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The Chaos Powers were able to exploit the resultant physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’ troops against the Emperor. So had the Emperor’s great plan contained the seeds of its own downfall.

>One of the key objectives of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these genetic weaknesses. The Codex decreed that Space Marines would be created and trained slowly. The genetic banks used to create implants would be carefully monitored. Cultivated organs would be subject to the most stringent tests of purity. Young initiates were to undergo trials of suitability before they were accepted, and only those of the very sternest character would be chosen.
- Codex: Space Marines 5th edition

>When the Death Guard began to recruit on Barbarus, it was Typhon’s warrior skills that marked him out. In modern times, the recruitment process is far more exacting – and should be. Much more is known about preserving the purity of the gene-seed, and a Space Marine Chapter of a thousand men can be more discriminating about potential candidates. In the days of the Great Crusade, the Legions needed recruits with a good right arm and the courage to follow their Primarchs into battle. When it was realized that Typhon was also a Psyker, he was readily welcomed, as each Legion was building up its strength by adding Librarians.
- Heroes & Villains of the 41st Millennium: Typhus

>> No.21115232

cool you learn something new every day

>> No.21115247


I think it was like 100,000 at peak and 50,000 when rebuilding?

>> No.21115248


There's some bit in The First Heretic which seems to imply that when those two Legions were disbanded and records of them purged, the Ultramarines' numbers swelled.

>> No.21115291

It annoys me that people think Mat Ward came up with them being the best marines.
They've been the BEST MARINES EVER since 2e.

>> No.21115312

Or how about Logistics and the best and most streamlined recruitment processed combined with Roboutes stable geneseed?

Maybe he used his early campaigns as mere training exercises and such then expanded, then did it again and expanded and such till he reached a number he liked and went full on true crusader.

Also, Ultramarines avoided most of the extreme intensity bloodbaths like Isstvan and Terra, further swinging numbers in there favor. Only the Dark Angels and Jonson had the potential to rival him in numbers...but Lionel had tust issues and so never let his legion grow to much. And due to other issues, the High Lords were wary of using the similarly stable D A geneseed.

Roboute was the Logistician Primarch.

>> No.21115341

Propaganda to bullshit more o about the Heresy.

The Primarchs turned and most followed. End of story.

>> No.21115366

We don't care about them being the bestest. If you've read Codex Space Marines, you'd realize the reason some of us are angry is that it is said that they are not merely the best, but that all others hold them to be superior and SPIRITUAL LIEGE.

Which is retarded. No proud marine is going to acknowledge another chapter as being totally superior. The Imperial Fists have just as exalted a pedigree as the Ultramarines. Hell, more, for was it not the Imperial Fists that designed and held the Imperial Palace against Horus while the Ultramarines dicked around with the Word Bearers being ineffectual? I'll say no word against the Ultramarines' valor, but the arrogance of their supporters is often enraging.

But some of us are just angry because being angry is what /tg/ does.

>> No.21115375

I believe those quotations mean you are wrong sir.

>> No.21115380

that fluff is from 2nd edition. The fact that they even recruited Typhus holds true to that (he was a worshipper of nurgle and a half-human hybrid).

>I d-don't like it so it's p-propaganda!
cry me a river

>> No.21115421

which was grumblings of primarchs that disregards the massive logistical advantage the Ultramarines had over the other legions.

While everyone else was merely conquering, the Ultramarines were integrating. Then they all looked over to the eastern fringe and went "whoah were the fuck did all these ultramarines come from"

>> No.21115451


>Half Human


Because hurr durr.

No, really, the only way Astartes make sense is if they ARE potent and deadly to a ridiculous degree.

As in, stupid powerful.

>> No.21115471

I'd argue that most Chapters WOULD consider Marneus Calgar their spiritual liege, because most Chapters were founded by Ultramarine gene-seed.
Something like 2/3 of all of them, if I recall.

Furthermore, the Ultramarines were assaulted by the Word Bearers full on in a surprise attack. I don't really blame them for being unable to reach Terra in time.

>> No.21115504

Around 50% actually. Which is still a fuckload. And neither do I, but still, it'd be nice if my First Founding Chapter wasn't relegated to being Ultrafanboys.

Again, I've got no problem with Ultramarines being, well, Ultra, I just wish other Chapters got a bit more credit beyond 'All bow before Calgar the Ultimate'.

In short, I'd prefer if Codex Space Marines was actually Codex Space Marines rather than Codex Ultramarine Descendents (and sure you can play those other losers too)

>> No.21115544

Well, sure, I've always liked the Iron Hands ,who get no love whatsoever.

I'd argue that a bunch of First Founding Chapters respect the Ultras, but not necessarily that they hold them as superiors.

>> No.21115566

>First Founding Chapter wasn't relegated to being Ultrafanboys.

They shouldn't be...unless you meant Second Founding? And even then it would only be if they're Ultramarine successors or used Ultramarine gene-stock.

>> No.21115592

Not necessarily.
The Crimson Fists are massive Ultramarines fanboys, for instance, and always have been.

>> No.21115593

>Ultramarines are the shittiest MEQ army in the game right now, loyal or not (besides DA and their upcoming codex and I guess BT but fuck those guys)

You should at least let them have the fluff wank. BT already have their own cool fluff to make up for it and DA have really nice options (many of which were given to C:SM) and are soon getting updated.

Once C:SM gets their inevitable 6th edition update, then you can resume complaining about their fluff.

>> No.21115597

speaking of half human, does anyone have that picture of the half-eldar spess marine?

>> No.21115602


But the DA aren't. Neither are the SW. Or the BT. Or the BA. List goes on.

Also, Guilliman himself (GUILLIMAN, not that whelp Calgar) praised four other primarchs, so yeah.

>> No.21115605

Or maybe he's unaware that 40k has an absurdly sandboxy canon and he can do almost whatever the hell he wants and the setting will still be like "sure. Why not?"

I've always found it amusing that fa/tg/uys take this setting and its canon far more seriously than GW.

>> No.21115607

The main power of the legions were their overall fighting strength, not the individual (primarchs aside).

"Typhus was born Calas Typhon on the Death Guard's eventual homeworld of Barbarus. Typhon possessed the blood of the warlords that had ruled the planet before being defeated by Mortarion, the Death Guard's Primarch"

"Beings immune to the toxic fog survived within the toxic cloud and built great grey keeps in the mountains. The higher beings began to use the humans as slaves and spread terror among them. What these creatures were, no one will ever know, although recent scholars suggest that they were Dark Eldar."

Typhus is half-human. It's not propaganda or half-truth, it's outright stated. We may not know exactly WHAT his other half is from, but he's not entirely human.

>> No.21115608

i fucking came when i saw those, i want to field a whole army of those tiny pauldron marines

>> No.21115612


I'm a big Fists fan, myself. I like those guys, they do good work.

I'm also the primary guy arguing there aren't enough marines to matter, but that's mostly an issue of "GW is bad at math" and so many people thinking 40k = space marines, when to me they're just a tiny part of the setting, cool but no more interesting than any other part. It's as if 80% of all 40k armies and 40k discussion were about Tallarn desert raiders, variant groups of Tallarn desert raiders, chaos Tallarn desert raiders, even more badass Tallarn desert raiders from an even more arid and hostile part of Tallarn...

>> No.21115640

You said Second Founding chapters that weren't made from Ultramarines gene-stock wouldn't be Ultrafanboys. I'd say that's incorrect, because the Crimson Fists, for instance, totally are.

>> No.21115663

The thing is, Space Marines were the most popular part of the setting even when they weren't pushing them.
Back when Chaos had a billion different options, Chaos Space Marines were STILL by far the most popular.

>> No.21115781

Oh I am. This is /tg/ bull I'm talking about. Plus the official stuff. In my personal Canon Ultramarines are respected and powerful but ultimately not dominant.

Here's the passage I take offense to, from the Codex Space Marines

"It can be said that there are three categories of Space Marine
Chapter. The first and largest group could perhaps be called
the scions of Guilliman - those Chapters directly descended
from the Ultramarines and their Primogenitors. These
Chapters maintain their own traditions, as is to be expected,
for the Codex Astartes insists that each Chapter should have
its own name, badge and heraldry. Nonetheless, they honour
Roboute Guilliman as Primarch and his successor, the ruler of
Ultramar, as their distant liege. Should the Lord of Ultramar
ever find himself in need of aid, he will find these Chapters
ever willing and able to fight at his side. Such Chapters
follow the Codex Astartes with as much dedication and
passion as the Ultramarines, viewing its dictates as tactical
doctrine and spiritual guidance in equal measure.
With the Ultramarines' gene-seed the favoured foundation
for new Chapters, these scions of Guilliman are an ever
more dominant force upon the galactic stage.


>> No.21115794


Chapters in the second category are disciples who owe their
genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the
Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows.
While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group
also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably
the Imperial Fists, White Scars and Raven Guard. These
Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is
not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever
aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

The third and final group are aberrants; Chapters who,
through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness,
eschew the Codex Astartes in favour of other structural and
combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their
successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their
recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it.
Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars,
remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own
founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in
the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few
in number and their presence diminishes further with each
passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source
of fresh Chapters. Such divergent Chapters play little part in
this volume, for this is the tale of the Ultramarines, and all
those who follow their example."

>> No.21115804


It makes a lot of sense, really.

- The dudes who all have power armor, above average stats, etc.
- or the dudes that don't

Which are you really going to pick?

>> No.21115842

Eh, I always considered this bit to have been written by an Ultramarines Librarian.

>> No.21115859

The powered armor is what attracted me to space marines.
I'm a sucker for plate armor in fantasy settings. and powered armor is basically plate armor. And I like the IoM more than Chaos in the fluff, so that ruled out the C:SM.

It's the same reason I play warriors of chaos in fantasy, or always play warrior rolls in vidya and TT RPGs.

>> No.21115879

Fair enough. Frankly it isn't a big problem for me any more. I'm just being a bit butthurt, on reflection.

Yes. Exactly. Just something about the armor... Also Chainswords.

Have some Rogal Dorn.

>> No.21115881

especially other bits, like with the Space Wolves, are contradicted everywhere else in the setting.
It matched their fluff as space romans too, the Roman Empire thought they were the absolute shit, and if you weren't part of their Empire, you were inferior, period.

>> No.21115894

> a Space Marine Chapter of a thousand men can be more discriminating about potential candidates. In the days of the Great Crusade, the Legions needed recruits with a good right arm and the courage to follow their Primarchs into battle.

Very interesting stuff, you could have a LOT more mahrenes than you have today, if you don't care that not everyone in it is THE EQUAL OF FIFTY IMPERIAL GUARD REGIMENTS.

>> No.21115909

This post made me giggle.

>> No.21115921


I said they shouldn't be. I have no idea why they are. It doesn't really make sense, cause shouldn't they be fanboys of their parent legion or chapter?

>> No.21115937

MK XVI armor was here, all other armor is faggots.

>> No.21115947

The Crimson Fists were made from all the new kids in the Imperial Fists, who were eager to accept the Codex Astartes and thought that Roboute Guilliman was the shit. They respect him at least as much as Rogal Dorn.

>> No.21115958

Sane human beings here, the Dornian Heresy is fucking atrocious.

>> No.21115959


That's really Dorn's fault for how he organized his Legion + 2 successors at the start of post-heresy. And then marching off his most loyal/best guys to that trap.

>> No.21115969


Yeah I don't like it either but I agree with that guy on the armor looking the best.

How the fuck do you even jump from Mk 8 to Mk 16 anyways? Fucking idiots.

>> No.21115993

I guess the implication is that they're advancing SO FAST that they skip over seven marks of power armor.

>> No.21116021


Which is bullshit. I'm one of the largest Ultramarine faggots who secretly longs to suck Calgar's bionic penis and there is no way Ultramar is more advanced than the Imperium/Adeptus/Mars/etc.

Good logistics, administration, and economy does not = technological advancement, even slowly, when the Imperium as a whole has been stagnant or even regressing for over 10 millennium.

Whoever wrote the Dornian Heresy must be an even bigger Ultrafaggot than I am to think that Ultramar can somehow start chugging along and catch up to/surpass the Dark Age of Technology.

>> No.21116022

and making it look even worse

Frowny faces > jarring and unsuited tau design philosophy

>> No.21116023



>> No.21116026

Oh, I know it's the fans, and GW's just selling what they'll buy. Still bothers me. There are shitloads of cool things in the setting! Why is everyone obsessed with just one of them!


>- The dudes who all have power armor, above average stats, etc.
>- or the dudes that don't

>Which are you really going to pick?

Except that's not the choice. There's the dudes in power armor. The chicks in power armor. The dudes in tanks. The crazy-ass psycho motherfuckers on combat drugs with skull helmets. The sniper-ninjas. The Vostroyans, the Praetorians, and the Kreigers. The cyborg scientist-priests and their weirdass cyborg killbots. The blind telepaths. Inquisitors, Adeptus Arbites, and ancient Administratum scholars. Fucking Rogue Traders!

Any one of those is as interesting as "supersoldiers in power armor," and I haven't even talked about any non-Imperium shit. So why is everyone obsessed with this one character archetype? There's other stuff!

>> No.21116040

The battle was almost entirely decided in space, with an overloading battleship vaporizing 99.999% of the tyranids. The remainder was an epic fight for the ultramarines, who are barely any dudes, but it was basically just a mopup exercise of the scant few (proportionately) tyranids that had landed.

Mind you, this is an epic battle. Any victory over the tyranids is an epic achievement; the scale of the tyranids is unbelievably beyond that of the astartes.

>> No.21116043

>female Eversor
>remind self what Eversor fluff is like

Why you do this, /tg/?

>> No.21116056

People find lots of the other stuff cool. But marines are the heroic knightmonks-in-armor of the setting, so they get lots of positive attention, which in turn gets negative attention, which irritates the people who like it, which well you get the idea.

Also they're kinda the Teutonic Knights in Space but with less german.

>> No.21116058

I don't like much of it, but the idea of reasonable humans is pretty awesome, and the fact that they believe in SCIENCE! and are willing to use tau weapons to get shit done is cool too.

>> No.21116066

Well, they aren't mindless killbots like /tg/ thinks. They can think, plan, and even communicate with allies.

>> No.21116081

>So why is everyone obsessed with this one character archetype?

I can't answer for anyone else, but for me it's the color schemes, the battle cries and litanies, the whole monastery aesthetic and motifs, and because they're cheaper (lower model count) and stronger.

I also like Imperial Guard but they are kind of expensive and frail, and their badassness is more of a silent contemplation on the heroism of man and less of a FUCK YEAH SPESS MUHREENS

I will probably pick up Tau if the XV8 redesign is real and more quality suit designs like the XV9 are released, or SoB if they get plastics and attractive face sculpts rather than IG.

>> No.21116094

you forget that marines are DUDES IN POWER ARMOR + any of the traits you just mentioned, sans chicks in power armor. (well, chaos mareens can be chicks, though.)

>> No.21116095


The way to point out cool thing in setting is to show off those cool things. Not to irritatingly fixate on a scale mistake by the authors, who are famous for not thinking of scale. And to do it as a way of proving that 'popular thing' is terrible and WHY DON'T YOU TALK ABOUT 'not as popular thing' MORE

>> No.21116096


Dating an Eversor would be like dating an angry drug addict who disappears for months at a time.

>> No.21116110

>(well, chaos mareens can be chicks, though.)

Do not want.

>futa Sisters

Do want.

>> No.21116113

Youve guys heard of Shape of the Nightmare to Come?

The guy went full retard and took characters into not just 50k but 60k. And possibly 70k.

At this point, his grimtardshitting has nothing to do with 40k.

Fuck him. Almost his entire current written material could stil be in the original 50k. But. Tardshit.

>> No.21116114

Nah, Chaos Marines can be hermaphrodites. Chicks, not so much. Slaanesh prefers hermaphroditism.

>> No.21116123

How do you date something that is stuck in stasis in between bouts of hyperviolence?

>> No.21116133

It helps that the Space Marine concept is both distinctive and versatile. You've got your iconic power armor, weapons list, and stuff like that, and you can come up with your own chapter's colors, symbol, specialty, history, characters, and so on.

On the other hand, you've got things like the Eldar's Aspect Warriors. Each one is cool and distinctive, but each temple is strictly defined already with its own appearance and special rules, and each one only makes up a small part of an army; you can't really come up with your own temples.

>> No.21116148

>less german
Black Templars. Hospitallers.

>> No.21116151

>The battle was almost entirely decided in space
No it wasn't. It was actually a pretty lengthy conflict, including a running battle with a depleted Ultramarine Fleet and the well-known hopeless last stand defending the polar fortresses to maintain the orbital defense grid long enough for Calgar's fleet to return.

The Navy was arrived for the killing blow, but that's -it-. Without them the battle would have been lost, but without the Ultramarines fighting the Tyranids tooth and nail for a very long time, the fleet would have been reinforcing barren rock.

People give undue credit to the navy in this conflict, since it was mostly dumb luck (a warp drive malfunction) that served as their contribution to the war.

>> No.21116164


How did you even come across this thing? Why would you do this to yourself?

>> No.21116167

>I hate things that without penises

>> No.21116175

Really late here but people talking earlier in the thread about how 'canon' it was that Jonson was waiting and observing to see how the HH would pan out... isn't the only source for that the word of a single fallen?

I wouldn't exactly call that trustworthy. The entire point about the DA is that they're supposed to be ambiguous... but people on /tg/ seem to love painting them in an extremely negative light all day every day. To the extent of suggesting they don't ever fight for the Imperium at all. Which is bullshit.

Also can someone remind me exactly what necessitated the colour shift of the Dark Angels? I seem to recall something about Jonson painting marines recruited from Caliban in his native colours and distrusting the marines created before he took the helm.

>> No.21116177


>Except that's not the choice. There's the dudes in power armor. The chicks in power armor.

who aren't as good and are rather unlikable even by 40k standards and look atrocious. Oh and who live a lie. Gotta remember that.

>The dudes in tanks. The crazy-ass psycho motherfuckers on combat drugs with skull helmets. The sniper-ninjas.

I am 100% sure people would field all-assassin armies if they could, dude. There is a strong desire to want to simply go "Ok, hmm, I could take the best, or not the best, lets go with the best. That was a hard choice." That is why space marines are popular. You can rail against it, but there's no reason to. All your dudes have above average stats and power armor. Oh, and they're vastly closer to the truth of the Emperor (he was an awesome man, but he was a man).

If dudes in power armor isn't enough, HOLY SHIT, there's werewolves, vampires, mummies, and zombies in power armor, there's paladin-sorcerers, there's all kinds of shit.

And everyone has decent gear. Or you could play guard, who are outfitted like hobos. Some people find space marines unbelievable; I find _normal humans_ existing 38,000 years from now, at least away from Earth, unbelievable. But that is just my opinion.

>The Vostroyans, the Praetorians, and the Kreigers. The cyborg scientist-priests and their weirdass cyborg killbots. The blind telepaths. Inquisitors, Adeptus Arbites, and ancient Administratum scholars. Fucking Rogue Traders!

Its mainly about the tabletop scene, you know. RPG-wise, people play lots of different things, and Deathwatch isn't terribly popular.

>So why is everyone obsessed with this one character archetype? There's other stuff!

Your options are:
>take the best
>take not the best

>> No.21116180


Black Templars are an extremely deviant chapter though. And yeah, while popular, they don't constitute a majority of MEQ popularity, I don't think. I'd chalk it up to Space Wolves for power gamers, Ultramarines and various codex chapters for everyone else, and then BA for everyone else. Then you get the niches like DA and BT.

>> No.21116193

There's actual proof that Chaos Marines can become hermaphrodites. There is zero proof that they can become women.
Until you can show me some, I'm going to have to tell you to shut up.

>> No.21116195


Ambiguity in itself is fairly negative. You'd think it's neutral, but when it's a matter of life and death and you NEED A POSITIVE AFFIRMATION RIGHT NOW then yeah, it's kinda bad.

Sort of like a pacifist who refuses to fight in a situation to save everyone.

>> No.21116198


I thought the color shift was just because the Fallen still used old colors?

>> No.21116201

>dumb luck
you mean plot device.
Seriously, is it that hard to recall you talking about a fictional story with authorial intent and not a historical event.

The Navy had a roll because the authors wanted them to have one. The Ultramarines had a role for the exact same reason

>> No.21116202

Probably because the Fallen still wear black.

>> No.21116211

How do the Sororitas live a lie?
They exist because of a loophole, but still.

>> No.21116216

The proof is 'Chaos Gods'. They could be made into fucking puppies if the Gods wanted. Because fucking Chaos!

You can believe someone can become a 13 foot tall immortal Daemon with wings, technoorganic sentient armor, a drugwhip and gremlin blood but a dude becoming a chick is impossible?

I don't even like that sort of thing I can I see why you are being unreasonable.

>> No.21116217

>I really really hate things without penises

>> No.21116219


They believe the Emperor is/was a god.

He isn't quite there yet except in the imagination of the Imperial Creed.

>> No.21116222


I love things without penises. I love them so much, even if you add a penis to them, I'm fine with it.

>> No.21116223

>guard, who are outfitted like hobos
...And have the greatest war machines you can field.

>> No.21116249

I'm not being unreasonable. You're making an appeal to probability.
Just because something COULD happen, doesn't mean it HAS happened.

>> No.21116250

they are chaos space marines. They don't give a fuck. If making a female space marine is impossible, they'll just throw enough WARP! and cocaine at it until it IS possible.

>> No.21116266

Which is why they can pull literal miracles out of their asses and have people who gain supernatural powers from sheer faith. Because the Emperor isn't a god.

>> No.21116268

I prefer my stories to obey internal logic. Things happen because things in the story cause them to happen for sensible reasons, not just because plot.

>> No.21116270


Guard are outfitted like hobos because part of the character of the Imperium comes from the fact that they are stretched incredibly thin on every level except bodies.

Wow the Tau have fancy tech you say? Expand their Empire to the size of the Imperium and suddenly you'll see the concentration of high level gear start to wear thin.

Compress the Imperium into the size of the Tau Empire and suddenly the military is all marines wearing terminator armour wielding assault cannons and relic blades and graviton guns backed up by thousands of Land raiders with Ordinatii support.

>> No.21116272


I want you to repeat




>> No.21116291


I think the guy's point is that you can't provide a single source or example of it happening.

Female Chaos Space Marines is pure fanwank. As relevant as Angry Marines.

>> No.21116296

>An appeal to probability, also known as an appeal to possibility, is a logical fallacy in which it is assumed that because something could happen it inevitably will happen.

>> No.21116305


So Sisters have a WAAAGH field. Big deal. Orkz are gods because they believe in themselves, right?

>> No.21116311

That's assuming that there are proportionately fewer resource-producing worlds when said empires are larger.

If the Tau empire expanded to a hundred times its size, it may look just like it does now, except repeated a hundred times.

>> No.21116321

Except Gork and Mork are real gods, and the Sisters are not latently psychic. You aren't helping your case.

>> No.21116325

Even though that, yes. Remember though, there's still another book to come that continues that theatre of the war.

Not the bloke you replyed to, by the way.

>> No.21116346

So what rumours are there abounding regarding the DA dex?

Any fancy new units?

I want them to bring back Imperial grav-tanks.

>> No.21116348

right, but when you get into stuff like "warp drive malfunction", it's a plot device.

The author wanted an intended event happen (Navy shows up, but only after the Ultramarines get chance to be SUPER AWESOME), so he made up circumstances that would allow that to be so.

The only way you can argue that the navy's involvement was 'overstated' is if you can show the author did not intend for the navy's roll to be significant.

>> No.21116350

I want to see what happens when pic related gets to holy terra.
It will never happen, but dammit a man can dream.

>> No.21116366

So you are saying that in 10,000 years, it is impossible to assume that a Chaos God has, on some bizarre whim, made a Marine female rather than a Hermophrodite. The Prince of Excess has never gone beyond his normal, comfortable boundaries. Because it isn't in the small part of the universe shown by the fluff.

Are you retarded?

I don't even like female Marines as a concept, I just find your utter refusal to contemplate it as a viable possibility utterly ludicrous.

>> No.21116379


It doesn't matter if you think it might happen. Nothing in the fluff has ever particularly given any thought to the subject.

It's all just fanwank on your part. Just admit it and stop.

>> No.21116387


Why does Cypher have Dark Green Armour.

>> No.21116391

Again, you're making a logical fallacy.
Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it has ever happened. Stop fanwanking.

>> No.21116404

to piss off the DA
Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if he did this at one point. Cypher is a giant troll.

>> No.21116426

Do I want a female marine in canon? No, not really. I'm just trying to say that the idea that it could NOT happen is utterly retarded. Just like a marine has probably been turned into, say, a living regenerating dish for some sadistic daemon.

Again, I don't want it to happen. I just find the utter insistence that it has never happened stupid. It is Chaos! It is beyond time or sanity! All things have and will happen in the Warp, or the Eye of Terror. And it isn't like it'd even matter, given how utterly physically deformed such a marine would be at that point.

And what do you even mean by fanwanking? I do not view this as pleasant or fun thing! I just think that it is possible! Again, I do not want it to happen, I do not like female marines, but it is CHaos! By definition it is beyond our minds!

>> No.21116440

>don't you dare remove those wonderful penis from my space knights. Space knights without penises are stupid.

>> No.21116450

I think it's theoretically possible.
I don't think it's ever happened. Just because it could, doesn't mean it has.

>> No.21116458

>it's theoretically possible that you are a reptilian alien so therefore you totally are

>> No.21116459


Fankwank is when you treat your fanon theories like they're hard canon.

You know all those Sonic recolourists with their self insert mary sues? While not on the same tier of faggotry, you're still doing the same general thing in spirit.


>> No.21116463

Fine, I'll take that. Now, it almost certainly HAS happened in some Daemon World or deep in the Warp, but then I doubt it lasted beyond a moment. And for that we should be thankful, for it'd end in Mk9 Boobplate discussion on /tg/, because /tg/ is awful about women.

>> No.21116469


You never know. Faith isn't stopped by anti-psyker abilities, but neither are Orks' operational capacity in general.

>> No.21116480

Please do not ever utter this word again. Do you want another of THOSE threads?

>> No.21116484

>That's assuming that there are proportionately fewer resource-producing worlds when said empires are larger.

I think this is a safe assumption to make. Especially with productive worlds dying due to wars and exterminatus and falling to Chaos and such.

>> No.21116499


Space Lizardmen/Slanni?

>> No.21116507

>Faith isn't stopped by anti-psyker abilities
Blanks can't gain Pure Faith powers in DH. So there's that. But I'd say that's because the Emperor's godly powers still come from the Warp in the end.
>neither are Orks' operational capacity in general
How do you know? Has there ever been a given example of a Culexus fighting orks?

>> No.21116509

How? How is this hard canon beyond anything? I am saying that it is possible that, deep in the Warp, a marine has changed genders entirely rather than partially. Does this upset you? Does it disturb you? Well why the fuck does it? Do you not have a problem with the endless fields of mental violation? The giant wormworlds filled with nothing but the screams of the slowly devoured? Is horribly mutated Chaos Space Marine having a different gender if you care to push past the writhing living armor bounded to its flesh so utterly anathema to you?

Because I sure as fuck find it less horrible than half the stuff Nurgle does. And I'm only arguing with you because your stubborn insistence is making me NERDRAGE, which I almost never do.

Oh shit, good point, not mentioning it again.

>> No.21116516

hah, I'm the guy who started this whole thing by posting
The femal mareen thing was just a one-off comment to show that marines can be probably anything you fucking want them to be, as long as it's got the armor. I probably should have expected this outcome.
especially because I have been the most vocal "no females in my spess mehreens" posters in a few of these threads

there HAS been a half eldar space marine, so maybe?

>> No.21116525


>I totally don't want this idea to happen guiz, I'm just saiyan
>fine whatever, maybe it's theoretically possible, even if it probably never happened

>> No.21116540


I was just referencing to the fact that they made Faith distinctly "non-psychic" so you can't "counter" it like you would a psyker.

Likewise, you can't really counter the Orkz Waaaghfield. You don't take leadership tests or anything due to the field malfunctioning and them not being able to tell who'z da biggest. Not that I know of. I could be wrong.

>> No.21116585

Well I was waiting for someone to say that. It was inevitable

I would not let it happen in game. The discussion annoys me. Pisses me off, hence the rapid replies and tendency to use exclamation marks. But it is a simple biological change. The idea that it cannot happen or never has happened on a fucking Daemon world, of which there are thousands or more, where reality runs like wax, where time can be manipulated like rock or water, where death is nothing but a careless joke, is foolish. It will never come up in my games. Much like how I'll never bring up half the horrible stuff that doubtless goes on on Daemon Worlds, because I like not creeping myself out horribly. But I'd be surprised if in all the countless, ever changing eons, the Chaos gods have never done it once.

God this discussion is bad in so many ways. I'm arguing a small, tiny even that is utterly inconsequential against someone who thinks I'm a fetishist and has a rock for a head. Now I know what Nerd Rage is like. I feel like I've finally become a neckbeard. It feels bad.

>> No.21116597

Hey guys, I'm making a Chaos Sisters/female Chaos Space Marine army.

Do you guys have any tips on how I should convert my models?

>> No.21116601

That's just the thing though. The WAAAGH! Field hasn't ever BEEN tested in the presence of a pariah.

>> No.21116611


>someone who thinks I am a fetishist
>implying I ever made that assertion
>implying you're not just projecting
>waaaaah boohoo I can't argue a point I'm going to whine and complain about it instead.

>> No.21116619

Here's some cool Fulgrim art, I'm gonna go recover from raging.

Oh god go away. Put greenstuff on it and then post it somewhere else. It would not happen enough times or regularly enough to form an army out of it.

>> No.21116633


Honestly the Waaaghfield is explicitly stated to be psyker-related isn't it? So I imagine you could shut it down, whereas you can't shut down Faith.

It isn't even represented in the tabletop though, whereas Faith is. Is Faith even represented in the fluff?

>> No.21116637

>if I insult him maybe he will leave my wonderful penis alone. Just leave them alone.

>> No.21116638

I seriously hope you don't think the former case is impossible.

>> No.21116652

>Is Faith even represented in the fluff?
Er, yes? Living Saints, for one. That one time the Sisters were miraculously immune to the Bloodtide, for another.

>> No.21116668

Fulgrim wore purple armor. This confuses and infuriates me.

>> No.21116684


So Faith = morale? Living Saints give 1 extra Faith. In fluff, Living Saints boost morale.

No idea about the Bloodtide. Seems like a clusterfuck.

>Later, in 876.M41, the Bloodtide would return under the command of the Bloodthirster Ka'jagga'nath. This time, it was only halted by the efforts of the Grey Knights, who slaughtered corrupted Sisters of Battle of the Order of the Ebon Chalice and used their blood to form a talisman of purity, ending the rampage of the bloodtide and Ka'jagga'nath.

>> No.21116713

What happened in the Codex was that they were miraculously immune to the Bloodtide, which is an ancient nanite weapon corrupted by the Warp. Some were corrupted, but the others were immune.
Living Saints gain supernatural powers from their faith, that's what I'm referring to.

>> No.21116729


Living Saints are Imperium-aligned daemons, bro.

>> No.21116734

Still neat looking. Have some Ultramarines.

>> No.21116741

No, they are not.
Stop fanwanking.

>> No.21116742


And yet they aren't treated as Daemons in game.

That's just fan speculation on your part.

>> No.21116751


Living Saints are redeemed female Chaos Space Marines.

>> No.21116766


Is Avatar of Khaine a daemon because it's an avatar and the method of summoning, or is it because Khaine is a daemon/warp entity?

Because if it's the latter, the Emperor and the Star Child are also daemons.

>> No.21116767

Living Saints are Alpharius.

>> No.21116772

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little heretic? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Ultramarine Academy, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Chaos, and I have over 3000 confirmed kills. I am trained in Jokaero warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire 10th Company. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on Holy Terra, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Astropathic Choir? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of assassin guilds across the Imperium and your signature is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, heretic. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Adeptus Astartes and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the galaxy, you little Groxx-stain. If only you could have known what holy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will rain fury all over you and you will drown in my steel rain. You're fucking dead, heretic.

>> No.21116773


I'd hit it.

>> No.21116787

>Jokaero warfare

My sides are mastercrafting on their own

>> No.21116798

That's when Omegon gens you from behind.

>> No.21116803


Emperor isn't a Warp entity.

He's flesh and blood with a great warp presence, but he's not literally the stuff of the warp.


>implying Star children are at all relevant anymore

>> No.21116813


Aren't Avatars not warp entities? They have physical bodies.

>> No.21116834


They're inanimate statues empowered by shattered spirit of khaine, who is a warp entity.

Think of them like Daemonengines.

>> No.21116835

An Illuminatus showed up in Atlas Infernal.
So the Sensei are, by extension, still canon. And thus, there's a good chance the Star Child is also.

>> No.21116842


I fucking love this thread.

>Pic: an Ultramarine instructs Schola youth in sport.

>> No.21116858


What do they do with the body of the prince they sacrifice to activate the avatar?

>> No.21116864

>dudes all surprised and disgusted
>chicks all "not bad"

>> No.21116876

>that unimpressed look on X-23's face

Wolverine's genes must have given her a bigger package than Herc.

>> No.21116877


Who knows, maybe it's incinerated in the process of sacrifice.

>> No.21116882



>> No.21116894

It's said that screams are heard and the smell of burning flesh fills the air when they awaken it.
Take that as you will.

>> No.21116902



>> No.21116911

As a terrible character, her edgy background is that she was an underage whore.
Why would she be impressed?

>> No.21116913


So the avatar rolls an Eldar joint and lights up after his hundred year nap? Whoa, that's pretty gnarly, dude.

>> No.21116918

>her edgy background is that she was an underage whore

X-23 SO MOE~

>> No.21116921


Looks like Khaine's run-in with Slaanesh rubbed off on him.

>> No.21116998

>...And have the greatest war machines you can field.

Sure. But my main point is that if you want an army where nobody is equipped like a pitiful Enemy At The Gates character, go space marines.

That's their popularity, explained right in an instant. You can rail against it, or contemplate why it is, but for me, its something like

>damn, these guys are fucking armed with the crappiest weapons in the universe

>they have no protective suits, what is this, fucking star trek? why do all these planets have breathable air? if they get hit with nerve gas, they're fucking dead

>its 38,000 years in the future, why aren't my armies a mix of genetic ubermensch and robots?

>holy fuck, the imperium is impoverished

Now mind you, the IG gets fucking cool when you ignore the poor bastards with lasguns. Primaris psykers. Ogryn (hilarious AND as physically superior to space marines as space marines are to humans?). all dem air force dudes. All dem tanks.

But space marines have a higher standard. And they're pretty appealing because of it.

>> No.21117005

>Enemy At the Gates
>implying Vasili isn't a fucking Vindicare

>> No.21117015

>Ogryn (hilarious

Bob sure didn't think so, Anonymous.

Fer Bob.

>> No.21117018


Space Marines are more appealing because they're easier to paint and have a lot of model support.

>> No.21117054

I find the IG appealing specifically because I can take a shitload of Conscripts and Commander Chenkov and drown my opponent in warm bodies.

>> No.21117063

>they have no protective suits
You can get ones with protective suits, though. From Forgeworld.

>> No.21117080


So basically no, /tg/ CAN'T get protective suits.

>> No.21117115

Sure, if they're poorfags.

>> No.21117133


It's /tg/, bro.

>> No.21118317

>holy fuck, the imperium is impoverished
Hope you didn't just notice that the Imperium is losing.
That the Imperium applies medieval english feudal structure to raising space armies. That the Imperium is far too remotely scattered for its highly unreliable means of communication and travel. That the Imperium is fucked and has been since 1987.

>> No.21118651

The setting is grimdark.
Grimdark is the best place for people to shine as noblebright.
Because lighting a candle in a pitch black room, makes it so much more visible than lighting it in a room with all the lights on.

The SPESS MEHREENS are supposed to be these holy knights guys. That's part of their appeal.

>> No.21118695

No, I don't.
Because the universe is still just too damned BIG for this to matter.

That's the issue. No matter how superduper they are, in the current fluff, there's just not enough of them.

Of course, expecting 40k fluff to make sense is kind of idiotic.

>> No.21118756

The best part of this is that quite a few women would go "I've dated worse".

>> No.21118789

Except they're not really outfitted as hobos.

They have flak vests that are still orders of magnitude better than what we have today, dataslates that actually work (hell, we still use ordinary paper maps, because in case of power failure, who cares?), Lasrifles are ridiculously superior to ordinary rifles of today, and so on.

It's just that they fight shit that is downright silly.

>> No.21118894

I mean to say, it's literally impossible to date an Eversor, because it doesn't HAVE free time.
When it's awake, it's killing.

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