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[ERROR] No.20733866 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

I'm writing a Bell of Lost Souls (who did fantastic Badab War, Dornian Heresy and Macharian Crusade Campaign books) style campaign I'm calling The Ultramar Succession, about the oft discussed splintering away of the Ultramarines and their fiercely loyal successor chapters from the Imperium, and I was hoping to see if /tg/ wants to shoot the shit about hypothetical fluff and shoot down all my ideas as terrible.

So far I have Marneus Calgar getting wounded fighting the Tau, and then the ship carrying him in stasis back to Macragge getting lost in the warp after the geller field malfunctions under mysterious circumstances.

Then Cato Sicarus is appointed chapter master in his absence only for his appointment ceremony to end in a bloody coup from First Company Captain Agemman.

Seizing control of the chapter, Agemman gives a stiring speach at his own appointment and calls all the successor chapters back to Ultramar to form a new legion, and bring humanity out of the dark, under the banner of a matryed Calgar.

So... Ready to tear it apart /tg/?

>> No.20733878

and an extract from my 'history' second about the 'assassination' of Cato:-

>The Sternguard of the first company, who had been guarding the ceremony from the balconies above, lowered their weapons at the proceedings and opened fire.
>What followed was anarchy. Cato Sicarius, the ceremonial laurels resting on his head, took two bolter rounds to the chest, and a third to his left thigh. Mortally wounded and struggling to stand, he grabbed the ceremonial bolter he had been about to be presented with, attempted to fight back. Grabbing an ammo clip from the body of a fallen bodyguard, he fired at the marines on the balcony. Heat racked his body as a plasma blast from one of the Sternguard's combi struck a pillar next to him, burning his right side. He crouched behind the alter at the head of the hall and prepared to make his final stand.
>Cato's loyal second company, realising something was amiss charged the hall and engaged the first company veterans. What followed was a bloody fire fight across the grand hall. The second company dragged the wounded Sicarius to the steps, attempting to
>A foolish and bloody coup had cost the lives of almost a hundred Marines and five times that number of civilians. Cato Sicarius, Grand Duke of Talassar, High Suzerian of Ultramar lay dead on eve of his appointment to Chapter Master.

>> No.20733902

Okay, let's sperg: PEEEENISS! SKUUUUUUUUB! SHIIIIIIIIIIIT!

Actually it sounds reasonable, but what about the reaction of the Imperium?
How far are you with your concept?
There will some things to be corrected, for sure.

>> No.20733940

I think you mean "The Secession of Ultramar"

Also, going with the Greco-Roman themes of the Ultras, will you have Macragge burning as some commander plays the lire?

>> No.20733951

>>20733902
Well I'm struggling with that. I did some number crunching and after I'd had all the various successor chapters either answer the call to ultramar or reject it, I had a force of around 15,000 marines, and around 200,000 Guard/Auxilia which is about double the forces of the Tyrant of Badab in the Badab war... So I've got no idea how the imperium would react. Even the Black Templars only reportedly have around 5-6000 marines.

>> No.20733962

>>20733940
Yes. I probably do.

I will now! Exactly the reason I came to /tg/ with this. Best ideas.

>> No.20733970

I also really want to think of a way to include other races in this, so its not just a MARINE AND GUARD campaign, like Badab was.

>> No.20733987

>>20733951
Immediate reaction of the High Lords: "OH FUCK!"
Templars for the first time in their history are ordered to attack a single target. A massive crusade is formed, spear headed by the remaining Loyalists founders and their direct successors. Aimed at the Ultra's. It's going to be one hell of a blood bath, I can tell you that.

>> No.20733997

Where does Captain Titus enter into it?

>> No.20734007

>>20733970
Tau started out at Ultima Segmentum...

>> No.20734057

I've always fancied Macragge - and all of Ultramarine space, really - to belike Jamaica. The parts that they want you to see are absolutely beautiful, amazing, and safe. The rest of the 99.99% of the planet is absolute garbage that would make Necromunda look serene. Fits well with the Ultramarines being the best on the outside, but in reality being absolutely awful people, even by Space Marine standards, and only caring about being perceived as the best, not actually being it.

BT and other assorted loyalists march (fly?) to the newly formed Ultramarine Empire to put it down. The Tyranids and Orks, meanwhile, flood areas that the successor chapters previously controlled. The Guard is sent forth to fight, along with the Sisters of Battle, who finally get to perform their sacred duties as Marine Hunters. The Tau send forth what they can, trying to get in on some of dat Gue'La empire. The Eldar and Dark Eldar join in because LOLPLANS and LOLSOULS respectively. Meanwhile, a Necron fleet, lead by Arch Necrotote Lord Deathgenocide, zips in, trying to further the Necrons eternal game of intergalactic chess. In the dank streets of the Ultramarine Empire, chaos worship swells, the Ultramarines and successor chapters caring little about the actual religion of the Empire anymore. Portals open, and Chaos pours forth, with many Ultra's and being swayed by the foul calling of Chaos.

>> No.20734135

I want some successor chapters to resist the call of the Ultramarines, and turn on their former progenitors.

Those chapters being:-

>Silver Skulls
Having read their tarot, see joining the ultramarines to be a fools errand, and cut off contact with both the Ultramarine forces AND the loyalists
>Mortifactors
These marines of Feral origins had never been favored by Ultramar to start with, and were not extended the honour of an invite to join the seccession. In retaliation they joined the loyalist forces.
>Nemesis Chapter
Just a cool sounding chapter I can put some fluff into
>Iron Snakes
Don't really seem like the Secceeding type

>> No.20734165

>>20734135
Agreed. Doubt that Mortifactors would go along with the Ultramarines shit. They're the black sheep of their successors, and I assume the hate works both ways.

>> No.20734281

How do you think the eccliesiarchy would react? I mean, they dislike marines at the best of times so would they use this as an excuse to persecute all marines, or just stay out of it because they don't have the military power to do much about them?

>> No.20734350

"Fuck yo shit Ultra fags, we gonna hang out with the Space Wolves." Chapter Master Seydon of the Iron Snakes on the Ultramarine order to abandon the Imperium.

>> No.20734391

>>20734350
'LAWL SPEECE YIFFS, Shud have know you Iron Snakes were into some weird shit' Chapter Master Agemman upon hearing of the Iron Snakes betrayal

>> No.20734419

I can also see some non-UM chapters being hesitant to take up arms against them. Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and some of their successors don't seem like they'd relish the chance to take the fight to former allies. Especially Ultramarines.

Orks and nids will love this though. Maybe have the Eldar helping orchestrate Sicarius' assassination? And in the aftermath, the Spear of Sicarius acts as a double renegade, taking its company and fighting for themselves. The U-Team!

>> No.20734658

What about characters, i mean if you intend to move the fluff and kill some of the old characters, why not do it for other chapters and bring more new characters in like,

A cold blooded Space Wolf captain, not hot blooded and emotional like others but unnerving, cold and a tactical genius. His men fear him and grudgingly respect him since he managed to pull of many victories.

A pyromaniac Salamander, unlike other Salamanders, he is ferocious and bloodthirsty. Probably a captain.

A noble Imperial Fist, basically a knight in shinning armour, caring about civillians, protecting them, pretty humble. Veteran Sergeant perhaps.

>> No.20735014

First of the Specialist Units, in this case for the Doom Eagles

>New Unit
Doom Eagle Death Flight - 220pts

Death flights replace assault marines in the normal space marine codex. They count as Troops choices

9 Doom Eagles (Stat line is the same as an assault marine)
1 Veteran Sergeant (Uses Veteran Marine stat line, 2 attacks, etc)

Special rules:
• And They Shall Know No Fear
• Combat Squads
• Combat Tactics
• Fearless

Fearless: Doom Eagles are overtly morbid, their teachings focused on death and mourning. The central tenet of the Chapters traditions is the acceptance that each and every Battle-Brother is already dying. Outwardly they appear consumed by grief at the approach of their doom, but as Space Marines they are immune to detrimental effects of such thoughts. Death Flights are Fearless, as per the special rule. The Automatically pass moral tests, but suffer from No Retreat rule when in close combat.

>> No.20735041

>>20734658
> A cold blooded Space Wolf captain, not hot blooded and emotional like others but unnerving, cold and a tactical genius. His men fear him and grudgingly respect him since he managed to pull of many victories.

His name is Erik Morkai, he already exists in the canon.

>> No.20735094

>>20735041
Indeed.
He is also the only Wolf Lord who can make Ragnar Blackmane shit his pants.

>> No.20735130

>>20735094
It means 'death'. And it's not like he got to pick the name. They collectively decided he was the one dude scary enough in their army to deserve the nickname.

>> No.20735262

>>20735041
>>20735094
>>20735130


Didn't know such a guy existed...

Well, guess not all of the Space Wolves are losers then. Some do understand tactics and be badass enough to make other Wolves shit their pants.

>> No.20735452

>>20733987
This sounds so fucking awesome.

Abbadon would probably try to launch another black crusade as the Imperium has a civil war.

>> No.20735778

>>20734057
>Fits well with the Ultramarines being the best on the outside, but in reality being absolutely awful people, even by Space Marine standards, and only caring about being perceived as the best, not actually being it.

But that's not the Ultramarines.

>> No.20735940

>>20733997

The only loyal Ultra captain, like Loken and Garro in the HH.

>> No.20735982

>>20733866

I think you should reverse it. Agemann isd the designated Sucessor, and Cato Sicarus conducts the coup. As he is described in the Ultramarine books, he would be far more lilely that Agemann to seceed from the Imperium

>> No.20736140

>>20735982
Really? I need to do some more reading. I chose Agemann as he sounds like he'd be pissed at being passed over as Cato is the natural successor.

>> No.20736192

>>20735940
This is a good point. Who is my Garro? My Loken?

I was thinking Varro Tigurius, the Chief Librarian, taking stock of the remaining loyal Ultras and high tailing it off Macragge

>> No.20736258

>>20736140

Yup, Agemann is described as loyalty incarnate, he wouldn't act against the orders of Papa Smurf.

Meanwhile Sicaro is more rash, inexperienced and more emotional.

>> No.20736394

>>20736258

What he said. McNeill has Cato Sicarius, the great and vaunted Captain of the Second Company, portrayed as a borderline megalomaniac who is more interested in taking risks to become Chapter Master than for the Chapter.

>> No.20736617

I think there would be only one Chapter able to fight the Ultramarines. To make war such a bloody, costly afair that they will surrender in no time. A chapter so cruel, so merciless, that thinks and acts as a sole entity of steel and death, that the Ultarmarines will know when to give up. Their people will be slaughtered, and their worlds will burn. This Chapter has one name.

Minotaurs.

>> No.20736642

>>20736394
I love McNeill.

Agemann 5lyfe, the only 2nd company Captain I can support is Captain Kreuger.

>> No.20736644

>>20736617
Iron Hands were here, making your slaughter look like the Meet the Pyro video.

>> No.20736657

>>20736642
KRRRRRRRREUGERRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5as4OL3TRI

>> No.20736690

>>20736617
>minotaurs
>destroying the realm of ultramar single handedly
the only -single chapter- who could swing it would probably be the wolves by power of jervis fiat.

Everyone else would need a sector battlefleet at their backs, in addition to a few more marine chapters, since the Ultramarines are everyone's buddies and can organize a welcoming party in three seconds flat.

>> No.20736716

>>20736617
I'd love to see what happens when the Minotaurs and the Salamanders fight in the same campaign.

>> No.20736751

This will be the central story of the next Wardmarines codex. Except Marneus will still be in control and he'll order all codex chapters to fight with their spiritual liege, which they will do because they respect and love him so.

Then they will hijack the Golden Throne.

>> No.20736777

>>20736716
uh, they have already.

The Badab War. Minotaurs aren't wanton cruelty, they're just leashed dogs of the High Lords. Salamanders didn't give a fuck and stuck it out so that chapters like the Executioners, Lamenters and Mantis Warriors weren't outright annihilated.

>> No.20736943

>>20736690
Yeah you're going to need more than that.

In the Badab war there were around 8000 rogue marines a battlefleet and one planets PDF and Auxilia, and that was put down by a force of a round 10,000 marines, Storm Trooper regiments, and 2 battlefleets.

Round about numbers I crunched on this puts the Forces of Ultramar at around 15000 marines, 24 battle barges, 150 strike cruisers, 220 rapid strike vessels, 600 thunderhawks, 200 landraiders, 350 predators, 300 whirlwinds or vindicators, 26000 non marine support units (serfs, servitors, equerries), 284,000 Ultramar Auxilia, 6000 light to heavy tanks, 156 super heavy tanks, 2 emperor class battleships, 14 battle cruisers and 70 light cruisers.

If it took a force of around 1.2 times the size of the traitors to put down the Badab war, we're looking at the largest massing of Imperial force since the Great Crusade in order to put down this...

>> No.20736998

>killing Calgar and Sicarius
>Agemman comes out the victor

Fuck you, OP, fuck you. Why don't you just kill Big Boss and Solid Snake while you're at it so the next 5 MGS games can be all about Raiden.

>> No.20737032

>>20736998
Because if I don't kill what you love, this won't truely be a greek style tragedy

>> No.20737185

>>20736998
>Raiden
>Agemman
Sicarius is Raiden, bucko. Agemman is like, a clone of Invictus (who would be Big Boss in this analogy)

Calgar is the Colonel

>> No.20737220

>>20736943
That's a lot of shit involved right there.

Did it take you long to figure it out?

>> No.20737229

>>20736943
If I may say, those numbers probably pale when we consider the 3rd war for Armageddon, and let's not get started about the 13th Black Crusade.

Still, that's a great and powerful force.

>> No.20737336

>>20737229
Not really. Behemoth could easily be considered among those two (the third war at least, the 13th crusade had some pretty staggering numbers attached to it), and Ultramar came out of that somewhat alright.

Factoring in industry and logistics within the sector, it would take an unbelievably large amount of (conventional) forces to rout them. The Tyranids technically had an easier time than anyone else would have, since they were a complete unknown at the time. Any Imperial strike would have to deal with the fact that the Ultramarines pretty much wrote the "imperial book of tactics"

>> No.20737425

>>20737336
Numbers may be inadequate if we consider that the Secessionists would have less than 300 thousand regular troops to defend 8 worlds.
How many worlds are worth defending, anyway? And how many of them would be self sufficent?

Marine numbers are fine, but the Imperium could simply zerg them, and it would be a matter of time. Their mastering the Codex could be a weakness when dealing with chapters who think outside of the box, but that's debatable.

As I read it atm, their main force is their fleet.

>> No.20737455

Alpha Legion and Ultramarines have a history together so you could throw them in if you want chaos to get in on the action.

>> No.20737536

>>20737425
> Their mastering the Codex could be a weakness when dealing with chapters who think outside of the box, but that's debatable.
It's not just when dealing with chapters, it's when dealing with the IG ground-pounders who would be necessary in capturing and holding planets.

>How many worlds are worth defending, anyway?
All of them, probably. But places like Calth would be more important than others.

>And how many of them would be self sufficent?
"Each of Ultramar's worlds are self-sufficient in raw materials and food. Trade between the planets is active, and each planet has its specialties and delicacies. Each world is balanced as a society and also as an ecosystem - although composed of primarily industrial worlds, Ultramar has none of the nightmarish toxic wastelands that are common phenomena throughout the human-settled galaxy. It is therefore little wonder that many system governors and planetary lords across the Imperium regard Ultramar with an envious eye."

If they decided to go all "tyrant of badab", having mostly industrial and self-sufficient worlds means they can raise forces and create defences extremely quickly, without the need to deal with the denizens of the Maelstrom like Huron did.

>> No.20737572

>>20737536
oh, and also the fact that they have a full-fledged Forge-World in their pocket

That's a big deal

>> No.20737610

>>20737536
Ok, thanks for reminding me they're all self sufficient. That may be both good and bad news at the same time though, as they would probably need to split their forces.

Ultramar would indeed prove to be a tough nut to crack, but I still think that if/when their fleet loses control, their end will begin.

Are we factoring in the chaos outbreak when taling about self sufficient worlds, anyway? Or was that just an idea?

>> No.20737626

>>20737572
Indeed, and that would probably be the Armageddon placeholder in the war. But would the AdMech join the Ultras?

>> No.20737663

Okay something you may or may not have answered.

Navigators, very loyal to Imperium as Earth based entity being invested highly in the Lords of Terra. How to marines get between star systems without them? I can't see them using the fringe and rogue elements of psychics and it isn't something a librarian can do.

>> No.20737690

>>20737626
Considering most of their trade is with the chapter or the sector and they rely on the Ultramarines for defence..

>> No.20737710

>>20737663
If they stick to Ultramar, they probably don't need warp navigation. The only ones needing it would be the successors trying to get there, and Navigators wouldn't know about the rebellion until they're in Ultramar, I suppose.

But OP may have some other answer, just saying.

>> No.20737738

>>20737690
You have a point, but it wouldn't surprise me if the AdMech remained closet loyalists and betrayed their "patrons" when shit hit the fan.

>> No.20737750

Turns out Agemman actually is an Alpha Legion commander who had been altered to appear and sound like Agemman. Converts most of Ultras and other offspring chapters. Abaddon launches another crusade. The Tyrant of Badab launches his own attack against imperial space. With the might held between the 3 armies of chaos, the imperium would be stretched incredibly thin. Orks, Crons, Tau, Eldar Nids would be free to destroy planets at will. This is how the galaxy dies.

>> No.20737767

>>20737663
Actually, in one of the books about the Nightlords, they have a captured navigator they force to fly for them

>> No.20737769

>>20737710
Ultramar is still a region of space not a single planet or solar system. Moving from one to another still takes Warp jumps no?

Given that all the realms will have forces already a rebellion would still be possible with communications (despite time lag) but effectively each one would be marooned and isolated, allowing the imperial response to knock off one planet at a time. It just seems suicidal.

>> No.20737797

>>20737738
The Admech is loyal to their own interests. The same thing happened in Badab... except this world already has extremely close ties to the Ultramarines.

It's unlikely they'd ditch an age-old (crusade-era) business partner for an invading army of something they are only tangentially related to

>> No.20737799

>>20737767
Chaos I can imagine having different methods to Ultramarines. Why did the Nighlords bother though instead of just using demons which is presumably the standard Chaos method.

>> No.20737812

>>20737769
This is why I say that they would be heavily fleet-reliant, when the fleet fails, they're doomed.

>> No.20737843

>>20737797
Until the Imperium comes knocking, yes. I'd like to remind that they're driven by logic. And their alliance is with the Imperium as a whole, they'd still have "business partners". Depends on the higher-ups I suppose.

>> No.20737846

>>20737769
>Moving from one to another still takes Warp jumps no?
Not the kind that you need a navigator for. Ultramar had space-travel between worlds even before the Imperium came into the picture.

>each one would be marooned and isolated, allowing the imperial response to knock off one planet at a time
This isn't Badab, and you're trying to apply conventional force to the guys who wrote those conventions in the first place.

It wouldn't be that simple

>> No.20737865

>>20736690
The Wolves also have numbers since they are basically still a Legion, and they also would be fairly ideal for the job since there is all that speculation on the Wolves being the Legion designed to "Order" 66 any potentially dubious Marine Legion.

But even still they would likely need backup purely for the fact that the Ultras have nearly half the marine Chapters in the Imperium as successors, because everyone else actually fought in the Heresy and took losses before they got split apart.

>> No.20737879

>>20737843
>Until the Imperium comes knocking, yes.
once again I'll point the the Mechanicus in Badab, who were -entirely neutral- and after a botched business deal treated both sides with outright hostility.

>they'd still have "business partners".
Shittier ones, sure. It's canonical fact that the Ultramarines are the best at running a business in the entire Imperium.

>> No.20737886

>>20734135

Don't forget the Fire Angels, who have decried the Ultramarines for pretty much worshiping their primarch as if he was a god. They wouldn't suddenly turn against the Ecclessiarchy (Who they respect) because of another dead leader of the Ultramarines.

>> No.20737898

>>20737865
>The Wolves also have numbers since they are basically still a Legion
What? No, they're above chapter strength, but far from a legion. BTs are probably the biggest "chapter", some estimates put them up to 7000, but that's it. No legion strength for anyone.

>> No.20737957

>>20737886
I can't picture the Raptors joining the Ultramarines, either.

Can I ask something, actually? Would the successors know about what happened? With Sicarius dead (or killer, whatever) because of a power struggle? How many of them would join their "spiritual liege"? Would they be willing to follow not the chapter, or the respected Calgar, but a power hungry tyrant?

>> No.20737963

>>20737886
The Fire Angels are kinda the odd ones out. Most Space Marines deify their Primarchs rather than the Emperor.

>> No.20737985

>>20737898
Everything I've read implies that each of the "Great Companies" of the Wolves is the rough equivalent of a Codex Chapter. The Wolves themselves took some big losses in the Heresy, so their numbers are nowhere near the size they had back in the Great Crusade Heyday, but they still muster in bigger than the Templars. That's the big reason the Big I has such an axe to grind with them.

>> No.20737986

>>20737963
Rather than deifying, don't they respect because "they're warriors like us, only better"?

>> No.20737991

>>20737846
Presumably loyalist Space Marines would also eventually turn up, the ones that are just as old and proud as Ultramarines and willing to tell them to stuff their spiritual liege. That said even the Imperial Guard would be able to win just by sheer crushing bloody numbers with waves after wave. There was a thread not long ago about just how outnumbered the Space Marines as a whole are.

I suppose we can assume Ultramar is all withing 4-5 light years of each other though those jumps are prone to trouble. It could however be that there was a form of Navigators used back then, is it ever explicitly stated one way or another? A genuine question I have no idea.

>> No.20738014

Eldar would probably mislead and harry the fuck out of the Imperium's attempts to reclaim Ultramar. The more resources the Imperium is throwing at itself, the less it's throwing at them.

>> No.20738026

>>20737963

The Fire Angels are kinda 'Male SOB'. Heck, I could see them working with the Sisters in retaking the planets. Have them provide the space/orbital support the Navy normally gives the Sisters.

>> No.20738033

>>20737991
They likely utilized the same tech that the Human Empires used during the Dark Age of Technology, where they didn't really enter into the warp so much as push against the Warp and then get propelled back out into real space. It is the same method the Tau use, and the Tau certainly don't have anything akin to Navigators, at least not in terms of sophistication

>> No.20738034

>>20737986

Yeah. The primarchs were warriors. Better warriors but nothing divine. The only divinity is the Emperor.

>> No.20738060

>>20737879
The rest of the Imperium may be really fricken bad at business while each Ultramarine is a Donal Trump but again they are a tiny molecular drop of commerce compared to the rest of the Imperium.

I mean the local AdMec (which I suppose is the bit we are interested in) might play both sides if they are a bit rogue and can ensure plausible deniability but the organisation as a whole has nothing to gain by backing the rebellion.

>> No.20738075

>>20738014
Yes but they need a relatively strong Imperium to keep shit far from themselves.

>> No.20738093

>>20738060
By the way I see it, they'd side with the Ultras as a short term solution, but they'd stick with the Imperium or go neutral when the time comes.

>> No.20738097

>>20738033
I think it's dubious at best to say this sort of tech still survives. Of course if they ally with Tau that solves the whole problem but opens up a new can of worms.

>> No.20738117

>>20737991
Numbers really are not helpful against space marines when you're throwing IG type troops at them, since sending mounds of guys that cannot melee and even if they could would have no melee weapons capable of penetrating their armor. Seeing your own dudes getting absolutely torn apart is going to sink morale beyond belief, and forcing everyone to shoot into melee (killing far, far more of their own guys than the enemy) is going to tear it down even further.

Besides, drowning the enemy in bodies is only a valid tactic when you have complete orbital supremacy, and if you have complete orbital supremacy and are dealing with traitor marines, why not incinerate them from orbit anyway?

Point is, there isn't a common situation where "drown them in bodies" is helpful against SM.

>> No.20738131

>>20738097
Well, the info on it is limited, but it is kind of implied that you could perform that maneuver with the same engines, the only difference now is the utilization of Navigators, the Astronomicon, and other specialized mutants which make true Warp travel safer and easier.

>> No.20738142

>>20738093
Well AdMech would have to capitulate at the outset because it would be that or die but the Ultramarines aren't stupid and are always going to know there is no loyalty there. The AdMech will change sides when they think they will survive it. So what would the Ultramarines logical plan have to be?

>> No.20738211

>>20738117
I'm sorry if you have even so much as a ten thousand to one battle with an actual planning and supported army not an Orc Horde or Tyranid Swarm, the Space Marines are going down. Without some serious plot armor they are not that immortal and if you are going to use that much hand wave you may as well just say what you want to be the case of affairs and ignore anything incongruence.

Presumably they want to preserve the planets, depends on if there is an Inquisitor in the area with an itchy trigger finger.

>> No.20738227

>>20737986
There are enough who treat Primarchs as gods that it can be considered a "thing". The ones who worship the Emperor as a god are much more rare.

>>20738060
>they are a tiny molecular drop of commerce compared to the rest of the Imperium.
not really. It's the entire realm of Ultramar. That's a huge chunk of (quite valuable) real-estate in the Imperium.

You need to remember that the Admech (hell, the Imperium) is not some over-arching conglomerate. Individual Forge Worlds are basically on their own and do what's best for themselves.

The fact that Ultramar is so closely knit is what makes it unique and important in 40k. They function as an actual society, rather than a bunch of isolated outposts in an area of space.

>> No.20738354

>>20738227
There are eight known systems of Ultramar, lets assume there are more and say 100.

1,000,000-100=999900

I am going to butt out at this point. The assumptions being made are too flimsy for my pallet but that is a preference. Press on and I hope you and the people you are working this out for enjoy it.

>> No.20738478

>>20738354
There are 1 million worlds in the Imperium.

Not solar systems, WORLDS.

Not Earth-like worlds, either. Our solar system has 18-20 worlds which could be inhabited by 40k standards of technology.

Most of the worlds in the Imperium are shithole nightmares of inefficiency and bad governance where the people in power care absolutely nothing about the common person and further waste resources by requiring everything be shipped offworld (and staffed starships are perhaps the most valuable currency in all of 40k).

With the resources of a single system the Emperor brought the galaxy to its knees and constructed twenty space marine legions. Most worlds can't even care for themselves.

>> No.20738645

>>20738478
>Our solar system has 18-20 worlds which could be inhabited by 40k standards of technology.

Now you are talking shit.

>> No.20738684

>>20738354

Isn't there only like 8 or 9 important worlds in the entire Ultramar sector?

>> No.20738734

>>20738645
Um, I'm pretty sure if they can make spaceships that can survive for hundreds of years in the Warp, they can inhabit, say, Titan. They do, in fact, inhabit Titan in 40k. Even when it was sent to the Warp.

>> No.20738755

>>20738684

"It consists of at least eight systems of worlds:
Macragge - Capital and home to the Ultramarines fortress-monastery
Calth - Cavern World
Konor - Adeptus Mechanicus research world
Espandor (destroyed) - Cardinal World
Iax - "Garden World"
Parmenio - Training world
Prandium (destroyed)
Talassar - Ocean World
Talasa Prime - Inquisitorial Fortress
The Three Planets
Masali - Agri-World
Quintarn
Tarentus
Circe"

I don't think they ever give total numbers just a rough idea, it mean writers can always add in more when they need to. Still tiny.

>> No.20738832

>>20738734
Titian is not say Venus nor is every moon of a Gas giant Titan. Just because it in a solar system doesn't mean it can have a habitable air tight facility built on it or Terra formed without tech way beyond 40k equivalent to solar cages and moving planets.

There are a theoretical near billion roughly habitable planets in the galaxy, why assume the Imperium chose to expend vast resources terra forming or building tiny outposts on pluto-esk planetoids for most of it's settlements apart from Ultramar that is all super-awesome planets?

>> No.20738982

>>20738755
Talasa would be an immediate target for the now rogue Ultras.

The battle over it might be on the scale of Armageddon.

>> No.20739058

So OP here. Imma gonna blow your minds for sec.

So Admech siding with one side or the other? Ultramar doesn't care. Because while having the Admech on your side or playing both sides would be helpful, Ultramarines Successors the Praetors of Orpheus pledged themselves to the cause and they are in technological terms, to quote the 5th edition codex, are '...second only to that of the Adeptus Mechanicus.'

So ok, whateves, not like we have a chapter of Admech level genius on our side or anything.

Yeah this is a big deal.

Let me go through some other questions one by one...

>>20737425
Well they have huge numbers of guardsmen/auxilia. I kinda guessed the regiment size as about 3000 and assumed around 150 regiments, because the sources list 'Hundreds of Ultramar Auxilia Regiments'. Where did you get 300 marines defending a planet from? I said 15000 marines...

I guess my point is I under estimated everything deliberately. I'm going on the idea that Ultramar is around a couple of dozen worlds, and Cato/whoever ends up being the big bad is aiming at conquest.

Loving the imput so far though

>> No.20739078

>>20738982
One fortress though. I was thinking they'd send a company, or a ship, and just wipe it off the map. Don't want any pesky inquisitors around.

>> No.20739114

>>20739058

Shouldn't' the Iron Hands, of all Chapters, be the clostest to the Adeptus Mechanicus in tech?

>> No.20739122

>>20739078
Fight over that fortress would be one hell of a fight though.

>> No.20739129

>>20738354
You kind of touch on something I dealt with early in my conception of this. The Ultramarines manage to consolidate their power. They do this very quickly, because of their bonds with other chapters, their Ultramar Auxilia, their own fleet, their own Forge World, etc.

They act quickly and decisively as a cohesive organisation.

Where else in the imperium does this happen? More like you send the call for help, and in a few years, maybe a space marine chapter shows up or some shit. Hell the whole setting of Deathwatch is based around a crusade which is partially funded by the fact most of the people who are sent on it think they're NOT going to the other side of the galaxy.

This is a universe of ignorance and misinformation. Ultramar comes along and musters 15000 marines and 250000 guardsmen and annexes a system or two. I'm giving this a time table of months.

It's going to take years.... perhaps decades to respond to this.

What happens when 15000 marines and 250000 guardsmen and a huge fleet, with good supplies, forge worlds, etc, has a DECADE to consolidate?

Is the force you sent to deal with the original threat even useful anymore?

And one thing we've seen with Space Marines is they don't seem to arrive to these things in huge grand fleets... they seem to arrive in drips and drabs, a chapter here, a company drops out of warp there... This thing would drag ON and ON

>> No.20739161

>>20739122
Oh hell yes... I imagine the Ultras would lose a hell of a lot of men from that... And Ideally You'd want librarians to help in that assault... But I envision Varro Tigurius staying loyalist and fleeing Ultramar the first opportunity he can to try and organize the resistance

>> No.20739264

>>20739161
Hmm, that's a good point. Librarians are hyper indoctronated to be loyal to the Big E first right?

>> No.20739333

>>20739264
Them and the Chaplains. So as I have it written at the moment... (in poor, none elaborated, none spellchecked, first draft)

>Within the Librarium, Varro Tigurius was attempting to rally the remnants of the first company, along with Ortan Cassius. Here around two dozen terminators, as well as loyalist chaplains and librarians massed waiting to attempt to stem the tide of the coup.
>It was now Cato revealed his hand, as the Chief Librarian and the Master of Sanctity were set upon by the foul xenos of the Eldar, who had been granted free passage to Macragge. Shurikens flew from the shadows and librarians were locked into psychic duels with the Warlocks of the Craftworld of (). Unable to endure the assault, Tigurius and Cassius did the only thing they could; withdrew, knowing that their deaths now would just make then more Matyrs for Cato's cause. Using the Terminators Teleport Homers, they seized the Strike Cruiser 'The Gladius of Orar' and fled the system

>> No.20739406

>>20739333
So Varro and Ortan flee to tell the Imperium at large that shits going down?

Hmm... not much of an Eldar fluff man, but I'd go with whatever craftworld is closest to Ultramar.

>> No.20739465

>>20734057
> The rest of the 99.99% of the planet is absolute garbage

Literally the only thing distinctive about the Ultramarines is that they're good and efficient rulers.

They are the only imperial faction in the entire game described as such and the only distinctive thing about them is this.

It'd be like saying "I've always fancied that the Blood Angels are not really vampires, and just have a tendency to become angry and weird."

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