/tg/ - Traditional Games

Everyone likes playing Chaotic Neutral Rogues.

none of the groups I have been with have been mature enough to handle a paladin in the party.

conveniently, the Crusader exists. and my current party hasn't caught on to the fact I'm playing it like a paladin yet.

Faggots, power gamers, and idiots play them.

Think Chaotic Neutral Rogue.

Everything a classic paladin can do, an LG Cleric can do better, without the need for an additional code, besides the teachings of his LG god.

/tg/ has a long and illustrious literature on the topic of paladins. You might as well look it up.

Do we actually have spoilers now?

>>20252295

Basically, OP, because of metagaming faggots like this.

I've never understood it either, OP. All this hubbub about making Paladins fall, but nobody ever steals a wizard's spellbook or spell components. Nobody rends the Cleric's holy symbol.

>>20252260
>Why is the class looked down upon so much /tg/?
You mean looked up upon, right? The only reason the paladin tends to birth rather hectic discussions is because everyone like the class and don't want it to be played in ways that would tarnish the name of the paladin.

>>20252298
[spoiIer] no [/spoiIer]

as for OP's question, my group had the idea that paladin's suck from the beginning when everyone was a CN rogue. now that we've moved onto other classes and learned how to alignments, I went back to look at the paladin class. I must say I love it but I know that the group still has it stuck in their minds that paladin's suck.

>>20252335
Well, mechanically, they're pretty shitty in basic 3.5E, and you are better off doing like >>20252288 , read rolling a Weeaboo Fightan Magick crusader and playing it like a Paladin. They're very good in Pathfinder and are no slouches in 4E.

Thematically, you can have a lot of fun with them. Lawful Good does not need to mean Lawful Stupid, and you have quite a bit of flexibility on whether you emphasise law, goodness, or approach Lawful Good as its own unique alignment construct rather than an amalgamation of lawfulness and goodness.

>>20252404
They're pretty good in basic 3.5 with the leadership feat.

their mount is the part that fasinates me the most. Between that and protection circles, I just love the class.

I've played crusader and I love it too. but I really want to give paladin a try.

>>20252430here

not to mention, that fearlessness feature they have is something completely unique I've never seen anywhere else.

I know crusader can reroll saves and replace them with concentration, but to simply tell the DM "no, I'm fearless" is so much more gratifying.

The character archetype isn't, really. There are just many tales of people trying and failing to play them and DMs not even trying to work with them.

Because "lolsoedgy!". I'm not even kidding about that.

But we love paladins
>>20252298
Wait what the hell?

>>20252298
Do we actually?

>>20252491
Oh wow we really do have spoilers now

>>20252528

>>20252528
That's not a Rage Paladin, this is a Rage Paladin.

>>20252534

Because players use LOL PALADIN as an excuse to be colossal faggots.

>>20252558
People like that don't need an excuse; they'll be colossal faggots regardless of class choice.

>>20252537
That's just MR. RAGE silly, he always has caplock on. He's not actually raging, most of the time

>>20252583
Yes, but he still understands being a paladin far more than most.

>>20252544
This accurately describes one of the people in my group. Eerie.

>>20252528
That feel when you made this OC.
That was a good feel.
An even better feel is when I see this reposted from other people occasionally. Thank you for reminding me of one of my better writefaggings.

>>20252558
Funny; my groups usually have the problem where the person playing the paladin cannot fully get to grips with just how wholehearted a commitment being a paladin is. It's not something you approach with "haha we could do this!...ah, fuck, but my code." It's something you have to live and breathe; internalize completely.

Because it takes maturity to dedicate your life to helping others. And quite frankly most people who play RPGs are immature (thus unable to cope with the real world escaping to a magical fantasy world) and thus get forever stuck in that "LOL ANARCHY FUCK THE POLICE XDDDDD IM SO EDDGGGYYY" state that all 13-15 year olds go through and then hopefully grow out of.

>>20252454
if only. I once, as a paladin, tried to hold off DM's homebrewed slender man/horseman of apocalypse hybrid to buy time for rest of the party (who were desperately trying to save as many civillians as possible).
>I charge him and try to hold him off
>no, his fear aura gets stronger and you are now terrified
>i am paladin, what's this silly "terrified" thing you're talking abou-
>you fall. Now, you are terrified.

>>20252703
Please tell me you reached over the table and smacked him across the face.

>>20252703
wow I don't support walking from the table, but THAT is a walk from the table moment.

>>20252703
>you fall. Now, you are terrified.
I want to rage at this, but I can't stop laughing.

>>20252770
This. That dude was cruising for a bruising and it was high time you delivered.

>>20252298
We do, and I still don't know why.

>>20252770
>>20252775
after angry discussion between Gm, me and rest of the party he admitted he fucked up and instead used "in his vicinity even gods cannot reach you." Imagine a paladin who charged enemy deliberately knowing he is nt going to win and when got nearer realized that not only his god cannot reach him, but he starts forgetting something exists aside from him, abomination the tiny space they're standing in.

It all ended up better than expected: civilians were mostly saved, party was mostly unharmed and paladin was rebuild (we had the technology) as a warforged-like construct with a deep crisis of faith.

>>20252897
Sometimes we do actually talk about spoiler-y stuff. Mostly it's so we can abuse spoilers for stylistic purposes, just like the rest of 4chan.

>>20252914
and when i say angry discussion, i mean that it was almost half an hour long and consisted of "what the fuck, dude" in several different variations.

>>20252914
>"in his vicinity even gods cannot reach you."
That sounds badass. If a DM pulled that on me, I'd be rolling like the fist of the north star to get the fuck out of there.

>>20252914

That's understandable, but I hope he doesn't pull that trick every time he sees fit. For an exceptionally dramatic moment such as this one, I could understand that even a paladin can be afraid, but he should have underlined it in the first place, made it very clear. Anyway, glad you all wrapped it and everyone was satisfied in the end.

I think it might have to do with many players just playing them like the idealistic image of what a paladin should be like, instead of making them people with a title, clerical powers and lots and lots of spiritual training. They're played straight from the class description, basically. Instead of taking a person with a personality and then apply how the paladin training would have affected him, and then play that person.

Cause people don't know how to play it without coming off as an idiot or pretentious jackass.

When people play paladin they seem to figure it means I MUST KILL EVERYTHING EVIL ALL THE TIME HURRR, when in actuality a paladin would have to maintain a very careful filter and weigh pros and cons of actions.

>>20253451
I've seen dozens of paladins played, yet I've only seen one that was like that.

>>20252543
I love that story.

Because they are intrinsically tied to the nonsensical alignment system.

"Good" and "evil" are pretty poorly defined in D&D. And when they are defined, lots of people say "that's stupid" and ignore it. (see: BoED and poisons) So everyone just ends up defining it according to their own personal beliefs. That tends to work, until it has to interact with the mechanics in a meaningful way.

People usually want to play paladins to play out their own idea of a "Good Guy." DMs tend to feel that they have an obligation to enforce the paladin's roleplay restrictions because, hey, it's right there in the rules. The problem comes when the DM and player don't see eye to eye on the definition of good. For instance, what if the paladin tortures a bad guy to extract information that he believes will save innocents? Maybe the player thinks that's justified, but the DM thinks torture is never acceptable. So the paladin falls, the player gets pissed, friendships are ruined.

Basically, the paladin is a shitfest waiting to happen.

Need some music for Paladins, some 'story' based quotes and some judgement on this, I'm playing a Paladin in a game at the moment, need to know if this works, basically as said by my Paladin when someone inevitably calls him out on not being totally perfect:
>That's the truth of a Paladin; we're all a lie, an amazing, wonderful beautiful lie. Made of a dozen smaller ones, mercy, duty, justice, good...all coming together to make what we represent, hope; because, if you were to take all the Paladins, in the universe; to grind it down and ask them to sift it through their hands, to search for the rest of eternity, for one ounce of justice, one minutiae of mercy, one nugget of true goodness...it would never be found. But...we act as if there's some rightness, some order, some natural, non-man made Love in the world, that concepts that we make, are more than just words, they're real. And there isn't and they arn't. And that's why it matters. Because it's a lie, it's one, big, beautiful, story...and because stories, when believed in, start to have power. A child is told stories of Dragons when he's young...he doesn't just learn there are dragons in the world, he also learns they can be slain...even if that wasn't true, one day, one child who was told that would manage it and it becomes true...we lie to the world, we make one, giant, story, that's reached back through history...because in a world where there is no such thing as true, infalliable heroes, or good, or love, mercy, justice, kindness...stories are the only thing worth fighting for.

>>20253772

Nice re-use of Death's conversation with Susan at the end of Hogfather there.

>>20254195
I never said I was original, and the concept for the guy was kind of based off that idea that sometimes you have to lie to yourself, because it's the only way there's a chance it will ever become true.

>>20252491

>>20252703
>>you fall. Now, you are terrified.
I like to imagine your DM meant your paladin tripped and got scared shitless by his stubbed toe, while slendy just watches in confusion.

Well, OP...

Played a CG drunk paladin of Cayden Cailean. He was all about protecting freedoms and fighting evil. His prayers were written on bottom of mug that always was filled with beer. So his ritual was to down it, flip it over read the prayer, and repeat. It was E6 campaign and he was level 4. He also gave away gold, other than what he needed for survival. He did more good than most LG Paladins, due to following his own guidelines not that written for him.

>>20255380
Oh man, I thought that helmet was made of legos.

>>20258100
No.

It is made of THAT DMs, falling Paladins, and retarded, convoluted plots specifically to make a Paladin fall.

>>20258120
...But.... it doesn't do anything unless you make them fall over 10 feet and even that doesn't do anything if they have a ring of featherfalling.

>>20258142
Which, frankly speaking, every paladin should be issued.

A lot of the problems with the Code of Conduct aren't actually problems with the code of conduct, just problems with DMs or players misinterpreting it.

For example, if a kingdom is run by a Lawful Evil king, you are not bound to follow their rules or laws. You don't actually have to prevent harm coming to innocents <Baby and village conundrum> you only have to punish those who would do harm to innocents.

And you can't commit evil acts, and you must remain your Paladin Variants Alignment.

That's the code.

~follow the laws of good guys
~Don't be a dick
~punish those who are evil
~be lawful good.

>>20259115
More detailed example. A Paladin comes across a city run by a Lawful Evil dictator who forces the worship of Asmodeus.

The Paladin does not have to worship Asmodeus, he does not have to stand by as a person on the street is attacked, he does not have to obey the "No one shall harm the king" rule.

>>20259115
Oh and also, act with honour, and help those in need.

Despite DM's saying otherwise, a flanking maneuver isn't a dishonorable act unless the battle was a one on one duel, it's just a tactic. As much as raising a shield to defend yourself from an incoming blow is not a good or evil action, it's just an action.

>>20259143
That is one thing people don't seem to get about Lawful alignments in general.

Being Lawful doesn't mean you have to obey the law at all. It just means you have a consistent set of behaviors you are not willing to breach.

If someone with a different set of consistent behaviors comes along and you find their behaviors to be despicable you are totally okay to straight up murder their ass. You don't have to follow whatever code you come up against, just your own.

A serial killer is actually a very Lawful aligned person. They have a very strict ritual for choosing victims, how they kill them, how they dispose of the body. But he's breaking a shitton of laws all the time.

>>20259167
I had one guy try to claim that driving a herd of wild horses through an enemy camp while they slept was a completely honorable maneuver that a Paladin would be okay with.

Like I don't expect you to go announcing formal challenge all the time, but seriously? That's pretty fucking underhanded.

>>20259167
This. Paladins can ambush, flank, use misleading maneuvers, etc.

The only thing they can't do is run up to someone invisible and stab them. The enemy has to know that you're at war.

The reason some people hate paladins is because selecting a paladin demonstrates that you, the player, are an authoritarian who will dictate morality to everyone else.

Even the associates rule means you are deciding noone gets to play an evil character.

Paladins are very disruptive PCs. Not as disruptive as chaotic stupid evil, but more disruptive than your typical lawful evil.

>>20259204
I am so going to play a /tg/-Lawful wizard whose code of behavior requires him to magi-punch any cop he sees in the face, urinate on any symbols of authority (including said cop) and to seek to foster revolution and anarchy at all times.

>>20259143
>>20259167
This is how I Paladin. He doesn't "cheat" but cheating is only possible in fights where there's pre-established rules, like duels. He doesn't use Stealth that often, largely because he's crappy at it, but he sees it's value (he's usually the visible distraction while the sneakier guys get into flanking position).
He fights evil, follows the law, doesn't follow corrupt laws (laws that are more Evil then Good) and generally is an okay guy.
Some DM's and players go WAY overboard with all this, largely the same way they go way overboard with crude humor and eating food.

>>20259204
> It just means you have a consistent set of behaviors you are not willing to breach.

Isn't that in the list of traits for a person with autism in the "Repetitive behavior" stuff?
I'm just fuckin' with ya. Damn I love spoilers, don't mind me.

>>20259257
I manage to play a Paladin without being disruptive somehow. Perhaps you simple have a lousy GM?

>I manage to play a Paladin without being disruptive somehow.

Um, no offense, but of course your own PC is not going to be disruptive to... yourself.

>>20259337
No, I mean it never bothers the group or ruins the game or anything. The GM never has to do weird asspulls, the other players never need to whine about my Code of Conduct, and we've never run into a major problem with it.

>>20259348
Good for you. And I likewise have been in many, many, many campaigns where people've had evil chars, even CE chars, without it being disruptive.

Anyway, point being: the question was asked, why do some people hate paladins? And the answer is given: the authoritarian aspect.

>>20259225
Well no that's not a good act. It's not honorable and one tenant of the code is to act honorable

>>20259364
I could see that. I basically play the Paly as a guy who holds HIMSELF to that standard, and nobody else. The only standard he holds everyone else too is "do not hurt people or be cruel to them".
He stopped Evil people from doing Evil things, that was about it.

>>20259372
Hmm...depends on the size of a group I'd say. If it's a whole army he was using the horses against, it's fair game, because "acting honourable" is not "suicidal martyr" and attacking impossible odds.
If it's a fairly small group the party could handle, it's okay for the group to ambush them (possibly with Pally as the visible distraction), because it would probably be A: more effective rules-wise and B: okay as long as the guys you're ambushing didn't specifically sign some treaty that said "no ambushing us in the night" or something.

>Paladins Anthem
>Don Quixote Bitches
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGzqbEeVWhs
It is the mission of each true knight, his duty - nay, his privilege. To dream the impossible dream, to fight the unbeatable foe. To bear with unbearable sorrow, to run where the brave dare not go. To right the unrightable wrong. To love pure and chaste from afar. To try when his arms are too weary. To reach the unreachable star.

This is his quest, to reach that star - no matter how hopeless, no matter how far. To fight for the right without question or pause. To be willing to march into hell for a heavenly cause.

And he knows if he'll only be true, to this glorious quest - that his heart will lay peaceful and calm when he's laid to his rest.

And the world will be better for this. That one man, scorned and covered with scars, still drove with his last ounce of courage, to reach the unreachable star.

>>20259257

Players like that bother me. I was playing in a mixed-Exalt game and one of the players was like 'If you make a Dragon-Blooded I'll kill you because my character hates them because they fought against their rightful masters, the Solars.'

[spoilers]I made a Dynastic Abyssal[/spoilers]

>>20259490
Yeah, that's when another player is making a choice to make his own character disruptive (and violently so) and then blaming it on you.

>>20259504

In a recent game, I was playing a character who had a murderous hatred of whores. I checked with the rest of the players beforehand to see if that would cause problems, and offered to change that bit of characterization. People were cool with it, however.

What I've learned from this thread.

1. Justice isn't always roses and sunshine. Justice is doing what is good whatever the cost.

2. Getting killed would leave many people unprotected, only die after you weighed the consequences

3. Keep your team mates in check. One of your members going to rape a captive? Offer them poison or protection.

4. Falling isn't due to a choice between "HURR GOOD BUT ALSO BAD" and "HURR BAD", falling is when you lose all faith and hope.

5. Don't let your emotions get in the way of doing what's right. Hate a king that runs a nazi empire? Don't let the rouge backstab him. Challange him to 1 on 1 fair combat. Then let the next in line know that if they follow in his footsteps, you will end him.

>>20259514
Yeah, some players fail to understand the concept of "collective gaming" and just do their own shit constantly.

For the record, there IS no Association rule for the Paladin code, it's just a commonly accepted house rule. A Lawful Good Paladin interacts with a Chaotic Evil player the same way any other Lawful Good character would.

>>20259523

Some good thoughts. But having the rogue backstab him could also be a good tactical play.

Paladin:"Surrender, evil tyrant, or a person of this kingdom will surely strike you down!"

Tyrant:"Eat a dick, pa-!" *hidden rogue backstabs*

Paladin: "I wasn't kidding when I said 'surely,' you know."

>>20259542

Yeah, but I feel that would be something you'd do if you were a more...Eh, not to offend anyone, but a "dickish" paladin.

>>20259536

>While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

>>20259523
Not a bad set of rules.

>>20259564
Yeah, but players who regularly play Evil characters I've tended to notice are kind of immature power-trip guys who want license to just do whatever they feel like, which honestly I try not to play with anyway.
No offense to immature power-trip folks meant, it's okay to be that way if you want, it's just not fun to roleplay with them.

>>20259550
or a Bad Cop paladin.

>>20259589

That too.

>>20259589
>>20259550
My Paladin is ALWAYS the Bad Cop, but only against really, really evil people. Basically they had their chance, they register as Evil on my Detect, and visibly do Evil things over and over on a wide scale?
Good cop is over: they lost their Good Cop privileges. It's not called "Negotiate Peacefully with Evil to Find Neutral Ground", it's called "Smite Evil".

>>20259564
That's not actually under the Code of Conduct, just 'Associates'

Check it:
Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities

Also pay close attention to this Ex-Paladins

>who grossly violates the code of conduct

>>20259564
See but that's general 'Good' character positioning anyway. A Chaotic Good character wouldn't associate with a Chaotic Evil character anyway

For parties that know how to make the Paladin work, the Paladin is an interesting addition to the team, either for interparty conflict or general reactions to the world. E.G. my group had a Paladin who didn't actively travel with the group, he just sort of showed up to save them when they were in trouble, or give them the low down of an area (He wasn't a DM PC, the player who player him just tended to scout ahead)

Some of the party were actually bad guys, but the Paladin made sure to not get in the way of the players having fun unless it would get too out of hand. For example if they went off looting, he would make sure to evacuate the villagers, and potentially donate a share of his own treasure to help repair the damages. He might also convince the Lawful Good Rogue to go steal what was stolen so it could be returned. The idea was to make sure they never profited from their actions, while letting them have their fun. If they got too far out of hand like attempting to rape or kill a person, they yeah the Paladin intervened, but then so did the rest of the party if they caught wind.

When the Evil players complained the Paladin player concede and asked if he could re-roll a new PC, this time he was a Wizard. And when the Evil characters next tried there fun he crushed them to the ground and was much more threatening than the Paladin. As the player said, he would have done these things ANYWAY regardless of playing a Paladin or not, because he was 'Good and I bloody well meant it' After realizing it was much fucking worse having a Wizard policing their actions than a Paladin, he resumed playing his regular character.

>>20252430

>They're pretty good in basic 3.5 with the leadership feat.
>with the leadership feat
>leadership feat

No! Hell no!

There's a fucking reason why NO ONE allows that feat.

Fuck, a Complete Warrior Samurai is good if he takes Leadership

>>20262153
Near the end of one campaign we petitioned to the gods for something to help beat back an army from the underdark, they gave an amulet that gave the Leadership fear

>>20262319
>leadership fear
>fear
>I want to follow you blindly to the ends of the earth but your face is the mouth of madness!

>>20259630
They will, but only in the "I killed that fucker" association.

Nah man, paladins are cool.
Wizards, however, can go fuck themselves with a rake.

>>20253772
For the music, check out the band called "era". They did a lot of medieval music (most would fit a paladin)

I've never played Paladin before, but I'd imagine that doing the right thing in a fake world is just as hard as it is in the real world.

Because power fantasy.
Most of the appeal of playing an RPG is being able to do stuff you normally wouldn't do in the real world.
For some people, that means shooting fire form your hands. For others, it means rampant thievery and rape.
Playing a Paladin would require most people to act better than they would normally.

So how do you guys Paladin?

>>20264362
I don't know if there's any other way I can.

>>20264362 how do you guys Paladin?

Only one right way

>>20264362
This is how I paladin.

>>20264393
Hold McCarthyism as your one true philosophy?

>>20264362
Hey, I lost my Megaman rpg. can somebody give me a link?

>>20264447
>implying McCarthy wasn't entirely right about communist infiltration of Hollywood.
Study your Gramsci

>>20264468
NO

>>20264468
Stop tinfoil hatting dude

>>20264362
This is how I paladin

>>20264459 megaman rpg

http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/365877/MegaManRPGrevised.doc

Where's that comic that ends in "HURF DURF WE'RE FREE and everyone stabbing eachother in the back?"

>>20264539
Don't have it saved, but here's a video of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9NLZUgbnU8&feature=plcp

This is how I Epic Level Paladin.

>"You cannot judge me. I am justice itself! We were meant for more than this! To protect the innocent! But if our precious laws bind you all to inaction ... then I will no longer stand as your brother." — Tyrael on lawfulness vs. goodness (regarding Angels)

>"He has intervened for the sake of humankind time and again, for he sees the potential for heroism and selflessness in each of us. He has even acted against the mandates of his fellow Council members to fight on our behalf. For that alone I always have and always will believe in him." — Deckard Cain

>>20264539
Freedom is beautiful. is humanity that sucks.
I remember that comic...good times.

>>20264539

You mean this one?

>>20264561
Holy shit

>>20264581
yes, thank you

>>20264388
>You mean having the three of us patrolling it
D'awwww :3

>>20264642
Supes is such a cheesy goof sometimes.

>>20258120

>conflict between two primary orders
>kill everyone to resolve conflict

"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that"

>>20264642
>>20264388

Superman, easily one of the best examples of being a Paladin. At least, morally. He's as nice as the situation warrants, and tries to reform the villains, but sometimes you just gotta lay a smack down.
Plus, in Pathfinder, Half-Orcs have the Redeemer archetype for paladins - a Non-lethal smite being the biggest bonus.

>>20264660
>>20264642
The best part is that he really, really means it.

>powers don't matter
>superman can only act as he does because of his powers
Uh-huh.

>>20264682
>the very next sentence says "you don't have to beat up bad guys to be a hero"

>>20264388
Y'know, I just realized this. Carrot from Discworld is oddly very similar to Superman personality wise.
He's genuinely a good guy, and sincerely does mean everything he says.
Hell, they both have the same infectious charm too.

>>20264682
superman has been De-Powered multiple times and still continued on. 52 for example. Could he do the same things? no. But he continued to fight evil as a reporter, he didn't need powers for that

The Paladin of Smiles and Good Times.

Camus the Dark Knight

Who are some other good Paladin Deities besides Torm?

This is how I Space Paladin.

>>20268235
That was a great series. So glad Otaku girl wound up with fat golem bro

Why is this always what paladins do? why do they never settle down?

>>20273297
Because there is always more work to be done.
Would they serve Justice by setting up a farm and raising crops?
A paladin stops only when he can no longer raise a sword and strike at Evil, when he can no longer hold a shield in defence of the innocent.