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20039360 No.20039360 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Am I "that guy" if I play a Paladin in the Ravenloft setting?

I know nothing about it other than it's a terrible place, and I like being a hero of justice.

>> No.20039371


>> No.20039372

You're not That Guy, but you're asking to get your ass kicked.

That said, I've done it twice. Died both times. Never regretted it.

>> No.20039388

If you want to play a paladin then play a paladin
Doesn't matter the setting
You're only a That Guy if you use your paladin powers to make it not fun for everyone else

>> No.20039423

Make this your theme song OP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yag41F7eCLU

>> No.20039435


Well it's not like I'm picking a paladin just to conflict with the party, like some might.

The party is actually pretty much neutral or good-aligned, just that a few of them keep getting tempted with using somewhat evil means to get buy sometimes, most notably the cleric. (He's starting to dabble in undead-type spells and stuff)

I could be the moral compass. Also apparently according to my friend, being a huge goody two-shoes makes you a giant target there.

>> No.20039487
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It's actually good to be a divine caster in Ravenloft.

It's a dark setting with plenty of undead, and both clerics and paladins can use their powers to great effect against them. There's plenty of problems that only holy powers can solve, and there's even an ancient divine order of paladins/clerics that you can become an initiate of (The Knights of the Raven).

As long as you don't try and be too headstrong and pushy (as some people end up being when they play a paladin in a dark setting), you should be fine. In fact, if you play your cards right, you should naturally end up with plenty of moments in which to be heroic, since holy people tend to really shine in Ravenloft.

They also tend to die miserably and in utter despair after renouncing their faith, but I wish you good luck.

>> No.20039494

not bad but not really fitting.

OP make THIS your pallys theme. in fact, this should be EVERY paladins theme no matter teh setting.

>> No.20039530

Well, then, play the moral compass
I've never been a fan of playing LG characters, because I'm a pretty pragmatic guy, so I'm willing to accept a certain level of evil in my actions if they get things done, but I'm A-OK with playing with them

>> No.20039533

It's less that you're a giant target and more that everything's so shitty and horrible that trying to fix it is the surest road to despair.

>> No.20039589


I prefer playing as a personable, noble, "nice" knight as opposed to being pushy and dogmatic "smite everything" type of paladin.

Also, the Morninglord seems like the cooler god to follow over Ezra, because he's got that whole dark side to him.

>> No.20039590
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>> No.20039613


Call me immature, but I'm just a sucker for the heroic character, even if they're not the most intelligent/practical.

>> No.20039649


>> No.20039715

Nah man, we all got the archetype that we really enjoy playing
Mine is the troubled anti-hero trying to escape a dirty past, but being unable to get ahead by being good, and being sucked back down
Yours is being a paladin
Different strokes for different folks

>> No.20040085

Ravenloft is a part of the plane of terror, it is directly connected to the plane of evil and possibly the plane of negative energy. In its first incarnation it was sort of like an evil fantasy romania, filled with vampires, werewolves and all sorts of powerful undead - If you've played MTG, innistrad is fairly close in concept to it.

Ravenloft is comprised of a ton of kingdoms of evil rulers (who are frequently undead) who are absolutely powerful in their kingdom but they cannot ever leave the borders their kingdom.

Ravenloft will slowly work to corrupt any 'good' present there, there is no way for practically anyone or anything to leave Ravenloft - the only exceptions are the vistani, gypsies who can freely travel the mists to leave Ravenloft. Magical equipment is pretty rare, and good aligned magical equipment is even rarer as good tends to be snuffed out rather fast there.

Ravenloft was formed when a man named Strahd Von Zarovich became a vampire, and it immediately absorbed his lands into its own demiplane. Any 'Dark Lord' it brings there does not typically start with his own lands, they live there under the sufferance of another dark lord - until the plane of ravenloft decides you're powerful enough to bring your own lands there and seal you within them. Ravenloft *will* try to keep its dark lords alive (of which there have notably been vampires, liches, death knights, werewolves and Frankenstein-esque abominations) and instead of just letting them give into despair or boredom and possibly kill themselves, it *will* seek to torture the dark lords there by doing wonderfully cruel things the lich for example cannot learn new spells, but it will give the lich all sorts of hope that he can learn new spells only to have them dashed. Even 'holy' magic can be corrupted through ravenlofts influence, causing horrible body horror for spells that would restore limbs and the like.

>> No.20040189
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Even more reason why someone needs to come in and sort shit out.

>> No.20040191
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Op, you should find a way to sleep in armor or become immune to/negate fatigue and at or near the end of the game, reveal that metroid was a girl.

>> No.20040226

Ravenloft has *Vecna* trapped there, I don't think just a paladin will be able to sort shit out.

>> No.20040230
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Here is how you Paladin inside Ravenloft

>> No.20040241

>Am I "that guy" if I play a Paladin in the Ravenloft setting?
If you ask me, being a warrior of principles in Ravenloft would make the DM That Guy after you get bit in an orgy of female vampires... Or get beaten the fuck up by some angry Broken Ones... Or be driven by the Red Death to commit suicide... Or...

>> No.20040247
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You imply OP rides alone.

>> No.20040251

Not with that kind of attitude. PCs are meant to pull off those kind of impossible stunts.

Making it to a high enough level to pull off said stunt is admittedly difficult in Ravenloft...

>> No.20040306
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>DM's face when OP gets stranded more than once on the same island as Dr. Markov
Pic related

>> No.20040327
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Onward, to victory!

>> No.20040342


It's clear that, in Ravenloft, the DM is That Guy. No player can ever top the DM at being That Guy in Ravenloft. There's a reason why Ravenloft has no troll; the DM's the biggest troll of them all!

>> No.20040346

This. It's hard to be a paladin in Ravenloft, but doable and appropriate.

>> No.20040369

It's not quite that simple. You can't fix it by small acts of good, because those get chewed up by the people living there, and you can't fix the people because there are things a lot bigger than you who like the status quo exactly like it is. It's fantasy subsaharan Africa.

That said, a paladin or good cleric raging against the machine can be a great character.

>> No.20040371
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Bloody fiends can't stop all of us at once.

>> No.20040391

There are many arguments as to why the Dark Powers created Ravenloft. A nexus of evil, a singularity of pure malice and corruption. A carnival where the Powers make their puppets dance to their twisted tune. A planar prison, where the worst of the worst are kept with no escape. (Fuck you, Vecna.)

Regardless, your Paladin will be there, and there for life -- and a short life it will be. IIRC, they're going to suffer reduced spellcasting and turning due to planar distance from deity. They are the brightest light burning in the blackest black, and so instantly attract both those that would snuff out the light and who would drive back the dark. Good luck determining who's who. Your vaunted Detect Evil? Might as well use Detect Matter. And if you stray even a fraction of an inch out of line, take a little too much pleasure in purging the filth, the Dark Powers WILL use that to corrupt you and twist you into something horrid.

>> No.20040393
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Did someone say paladins?

>> No.20040407
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Well jeez, this all sounds terrible.

I'm gonna try to make smart enough decisions to make my character live as long as he can, and maaaybe get powerful enough to make one of the dark lords nervous.

I do hope I'll get a heroic death at least.

>> No.20040413

>they're going to suffer reduced spellcasting and turning due to planar distance from deity
Don't be devoted to a deity then. Paladins and Clerics can be devoted to an ideal. I don't know if being too far distant from the positive energy plane will affect anything though.

>> No.20040423
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no act of good no matter how small is ever a waste because even the smallest point of light shines brightest against the dark!

>> No.20040424

That and being a paladin in name, not in mechanics.

But I think OP wants the mechanics.

>> No.20040431


>Detect Evil

Ever since my buddy who's running this campaign has been telling me about it, I always wondered what his response would be if I tried this.

I always figured it either wouldn't work, or he'd just be like.. "Everywhere except the exact spot you're standing radiates of evil"

>> No.20040435
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>> No.20040437

>We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.

Replace moon with smite evil.

>> No.20040455

>because there are things a lot bigger than you who like the status quo exactly like it is
Then get bigger.

>> No.20040472
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Don't lose hope, OP. That's all you've got.

Be the incorruptible bastion. Every time the darkness shoves in on you, you shove back. Every time the dark, grasping fingers of temptation take hold of you, you shake them loose. Every time they seek to poison your faith, roar your god's name aloud as you spit evildoers on your blade.

They may kill you, but if they do not break you, then you are truly the victory.

>> No.20040488


*truly the victor

God damn it.

>> No.20040495

A small candle may burn bright against the darkness, but it also burns short. Shorter if someone is following you and actively snuffing those candles.

>> No.20040506


It burns short, and then you kick it in your bitchin' LG afterlife while that someone scrambles around in a desperate attempt to avoid the pit.

>> No.20040513
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None is better suited for this task than the Holy Sword Excalibur!

>> No.20040517

Actually, OP, your best bet in Ravenloft is to be Neutral Evil, where all you care about is yourself &, thus, your survival. you see; the good die extremely young in Ravenloft (or go crazy & chaotic evil). If you stay as a paladin, it'll be extremely hard to make allies since there's no ability to determine who's who until it's too late. It's even harder to keep them, as everyone has their temptations that lead them astray & into the dark.

There's also an order of relic-keeping priests who serve no god, but they try to serve good & end up suffering for it greatly (example; in Neither Man Nor Beast, there's an order of these monks protecting a tabletop that preserves all life through mutilation, but doesn't mask any pain & causes gradual mummification to those exposed to its radiation for a month; needless to say that these monks became undead & don't know it).

>> No.20040541


Mind you, I'm a 2ndfag. They may have retconned all the spellery-fluxery in later editions, as it WAS some serious bookkeeping bullshit for a plane-hopping campaign, and a giant set of hobbles you padlocked onto a character in a longer term plane campaign. IIRC, you could mitigate it with some sort of magical item that acted as a plane-specific focus, a conduit to your god, but in Ravenloft that's like finding a winged pegasus with a +5 Holy Avenger in his teeth.


Detect Evil in Ravenloft works... well, almost exactly like that. Everything, everyone, and everywhere radiates evil. You may have a check to concentrate and pierce that; I never played a Paladin in Ravenloft, so I'm not 100% positive. I'd have to go delve my books.


Immutable rule of Ravenloft: YOU CANNOT GET BIGGER THAN THE POWERS. You get more powerful than a Domain Lord, you get your own domain, simple as that. There's a reason they get Capital Letters. They are Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, completely unknowable, inscrutable, and impossible to interact with. They exist outside of the frame of reference of Ravenloft itself, but can manipulate it at-will; they will NEVER do so to your benefit. There are rules for attracting the attention of the Powers. In short: don't.

>> No.20040542

If you believed it was pointless to fight for good in the face of overwhelming evil, then you wouldn't want to play a Paladin in the first place.

So yeah. It's totally fine. It's just that's the situation in Ravenloft, evil is everywhere and ascendant. You will probably not 'win' but it should be a fun experience.

Here's some inspirational words:
>“I have seen that it is not man who is impotent in the struggle against evil, but the power of evil that is impotent in the struggle against man. The powerlessness of kindness, of senseless kindness, is the secret of its immortality. It can never by conquered. The more stupid, the more senseless, the more helpless it may seem, the vaster it is. Evil is impotent before it. The prophets, religious teachers, reformers, social and political leaders are impotent before it. This dumb, blind love is man’s meaning. Human history is not the battle of good struggling to overcome evil. It is a battle fought by a great evil, struggling to crush a small kernel of human kindness. But if what is human in human beings has not been destroyed even now, then evil will never conquer.”

>> No.20040555
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>> No.20040568
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Have you never actually been a hero before? I'm gonna get bigger than the whole goddamn multiverse if I have to.

>> No.20040580
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I like you.

>> No.20040582


Y'know, I'm not 100% positive what happens to those who die in Ravenloft. It's downright overflowing with the restless undead.

That said, if dying was the easy way out, many a Domain Lord would've suicided millennia ago.

>> No.20040583

>Have you never actually been a hero before? I'm gonna get bigger than the whole goddamn multiverse if I have to
See, if you're signing on a Ravenloft campaign it definitely isn't That Guy to be a Paladin, but it pretty much is That Guy to insist that you will win for the forces of good.

>> No.20040584
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>> No.20040586


So, theoretically, if a good hero becomes stronger than a Domain lord, what happens?

Do the powers basically snuff him out before he can do damage, or toss him in his own domain?

And what would that domain be like? I doubt they would make a good place.

>> No.20040590

The Domain Lords specifically can't.

>> No.20040614

Nope. Ravenloft's a demiplane; everything temporal in this world is actually immaterial except for the senses. It's like a nightmare; you can touch things, you can feel pain, but it doesn't exists & nor do you. That's why Detect Evil won't work to your benefit; everything radiates evil because the demiplane & all inside it is part of an evil dream.

>> No.20040633

Impossible; for a good character to overpower a Dark Lord, he'd have to stray from his doctrine & become greedy enough to want to take over the domain. The character's mind gradually fades towards chaotic evil.

>> No.20040636

Then the world is shattered by a paradox it deems impossible.

Enjoy destroying an entire demiplane of evil consciousness, sacrificing yourself in the process.

>> No.20040655

See, that's just bad writing to keep 'bloo bloo everything sucks'.

>> No.20040667


If they become that powerful within the confines of Ravenloft? They'll probably get their own domain. The Dark Powers may treat with them, and give them a one-way ticket to Fuckoffsville. There WILL be a catch.

Every domain is a tailor-built torture chamber. Domain Lords possess almost limitless power within their domains, but rarely exercise it, as they're so caught up in the brutal knife-twisting the Dark Powers have handed to them. This is where the idea of Ravenloft-as-prison arose from -- Ravenloft is just as unkind to its sublimely powerful denizens as it is to the rank and file. Add to this that even the most powerful, the most unstoppable, are completely unable to escape unless the Powers will it, and more credence is lent to this thought process. (And the whole Vecna-Sigil thing NEVER FUCKING HAPPENED.)

>> No.20040674

There's no such thing as true death in Ravenloft. Everything that dies reanimates from the dark forces & becomes undead unless the proper precautions are taken during burial.

>> No.20040684
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Worth it.

>> No.20040685
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Oh no. It IS that simple. It's just not that easy. Far too often people get the two confused. Some of the hardest things are often the simplest.

This is such an occasion. No, you cannot simply go in and force everyone to be "good," but where can you do that? No where.
1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

(If you're not Christian then ignore the first sentence)

That's right. Even the Bible says to EXPLAIN what you're doing, what your morals are, WHY they are right.

If they don't except it, then dust yourself off and move on to the next town. I can't think of the verse, but it's in there.

I'm not implying that you must be Christian to be Paladin.Please don't make that conclusion. (I'm honestly a little drunk right now.) But there is wisdom in the Christian Bible.

Pray for the weak, fight for the weak, uplift the weak, and if they rebuke you, then move on when they are safe. Do the same for the next town. And the next and the next. You're work is never done. It never will be. You are the foil, the reaction to the action of Evil.

You are there because they are. It is the fault of Evil that you stand before it. You understand that, don't you? You understand that, the darker it is, the brighter you must shine. Because there are those who need you to. Being a Paladin isn't about your own moral code. It's about those who believe that justice comes for those who want to be righteous. Who want to be good.

They need someone to show them that this belief they have, the one that keeps them going, isn't a false one. They need to know that SOMEONE is out there. SOMEONE is willing to stand tall for those that need it.

Even if they fall at the end.

>> No.20040686

Okay, don't Paladin this, you're going to That Guy it.

>> No.20040704

Clearly, a Good-Aligned character gaining a Domain would have his people be the victims of things he would always champion against, but never fully defeat. Pyrrhic victories at best, ever pushing him to more and more drastic means of eradicating the invading dark, but never able to completely do so. The only thing giving him hope is the well-being of those left alive in his domain.

>> No.20040709

Ravenloft itself would attempt to crush them.

The plane is a malevolent entity. It actively seeks to punish, well, everyone, but mostly the good.

>> No.20040720


That's actually cool, I never had it described like that to me when I was talking to the guys in the campaign.

I assummed it was just a normal horror-style setting, but you make it sound like a terrible prison plane.


I've had like six people confused for myself this thread. Oh well, it's an anonymous imageboard.

>> No.20040725

Blame TSR for this.

You have to realize that Ravenloft is a dystopic setting for every campaign. It's a world born from evil, born into evil, destined to remain evil until all other planes & demiplanes manage to destroy evil (which is impossible & can upset the balance of the universe).

Ravenloft is, in fact, a nightmare that players can't awaken from &, once consumed by it, become a part of it.

>> No.20040749

Well then we take away TSR's horribad 70s/80s mindset and fix it.

If you want everything to be sadevilsuckville, make it one that's got more room to torture those who rebel with their own success as much as their failure.

>> No.20040754

That's only if your so completely dedicated to the idea of 'eradicating' evil where your not satisfied with simply knocking it back over and over.

Keep coming back again and again evil, I'll always be there to knock your teeth out.

From the Hate-Scorched Sky.


>> No.20040778


>but you make it sound like a terrible prison plane.

It IS. No one is quite sure what it is...but something takes the vilest, darkest beings from realities...and locks them in a domain they can't ever escape. The Powers are Jailors and Torturers as much as anything else.

>> No.20040779

It is a prison plane. The dark lords can never leave their domain, and the plane itself tortures them relentlessly and will never let them die. Ravenloft is a shitty enough plane that even the evil guys end up hating it for being too evil.

>> No.20040789

There's nothing really normal about it. The original campaigns for low-level players are meant to be like normal horror fantasy stories (Island of Dr Mreau, Frankenstein, etc.). But then, it gradually becomes darker & more deviant from what one would call normal (Messiah of Evil, Portrait of Dorian Gray, etc.). Then, it becomes its own story where the place itself is the evil that you're trying to destroy (which results either in your own destruction, or your acceptance of it & your getting punished for trying to fight it in the first place).

>> No.20040791


It's both, and mostly


Ravenloft IS suffering. It's a nonstop horrorshow for anyone unlucky enough to be caught up in it, no matter how powerful. In fact, it's almost worse to be eminently powerful, because of how stark your impotence is.


Unintentional wisdom.

I will say this: when our Dark Sun party got sucked into Ravenloft, half the party considered it to be fucking Happy-Happy Land, a beautiful place where sure, crap things happened, but you never died from dehydration or malnutrition. Some of those horrors are good eatin'!

>> No.20040793

You'll wind up dying a meaningless death.

>> No.20040795

Eh, *sometimes* the Dark Powers (the things even more powerful than the Dark Lords) set things free from ravenloft. It is incredibly, incredibly rare though.
Sometimes people redeem themselves in Ravenloft and the dark powers set them free as a reward, but it is *incredibly* fucking rare.

Lord Soth was set free because the Dark Powers couldn't torture him (there was also a legal dispute over it, as the people who wrote him into ravenloft didn't have the authority to do so).

>> No.20040799


The thing is, OP: Don't go around thinking you can change the fundamental problems of Ravenloft, because Ravenloft is a hell from which the sufferers cannot awaken. Instead, do what good you can on a small basis: You can stop a monster from ravaging a populace, cure a specific outbreak of plague, even ensure that there's a brief respite from horror, for a short time.

You're not going to take out one of the Darklords. In fact, physical force is the absolutely *worst* way to try and resolve the problems. You also can't force people to be good, because that has all kinds of problems, too.

What you can do is to travel from place to place, doing good deeds - And helping wherever you can.

>> No.20040801

I fought for what I believed in, that's all the meaning I desire.

>> No.20040802

Exactly; Ravenloft as a demiplane can be considered its own NPC with a 10th alignment going beyond chaotic evil.

>> No.20040808


See, when I first had it described to me, it was obviously very simply and in-person to get a feel for it.

Various domains, all ruled by a Dark Lord, etc. So I assumed the dark lords were the head honchos of the whole plane, like the setting's Legion of Doom (composed of Dracula and Frankenstein, etc.),

Not that they were being screwed just as bad by some Lovecraftian entity that controls everything. Which I find a lot cooler than the "Fantasy Transylvania" setting I envisioned.

>> No.20040820
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And there is wisdom in the teachings of godoka.
Most people don't actually consider it the truth though.

Being good is never a waste of time because people who are good are almost always altruistic, it's in their nature to do good. No one but assholes come over and say stop trying to reach perfection. Not even malevolent people. Even they can recognize the journey a guitar player or doctor goes through is more important than the end result. Striving for "perfection" is no different than "finding" adventure. And that is why it's never a waste of time.

>> No.20040821


That was pretty much bullshit, but I prefer to look at it this way:

Soth knew what he'd done, and he was content to wallow in his own damnation. He just didn't care, and the plane couldn't make him suffer or reflect on his sins: He simply didn't want to claw his way out of his deep, dark hole, and didn't want to improve himself, or...Well, anything.

He just wanted - Like the undead - to replay the same thing over and over again.

>> No.20040823

domain lords who suicide in ravenloft tend to wake up a few days later. there are very rare circumstances where they can be killed, but the only one I can think of offhand is the vampire Jander vs darklord/vampire Strahd, where Jander almost kills Strahd, realizes what he's becoming and walks into the sunlight.

>> No.20040829

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Be a beacon, even if it's a beacon no one follows.


>> No.20040837


If you really delve into Ravenloft & why it was created, it's more of a good practice to not try & make the world a better place, but to instead make yourself a better person to those who really need it. The only problem is you'll never know who needs it & who's pretending in order to backstab you (just like in real life).

>> No.20040842


And usually, when the Powers let you go, it's a Monkey's Paw. They WILL twist the knife on the way out the door. Lest you forget why you were tortured in the first place.


There are actually entire LOCATIONS that are good, or at least grey-neutral. My Thri-kreen picked one of these as her stopping point, because it was the single best place she'd found period. You'll find towns that are a little heavy on the angst, sorrow, and predation, but they're a damn sight better than living under the Orcish Rape-Hordes of the Fang Mountains or some shit. You actually CAN live out your life as a cobbler, and only have minorly bad shit happen to you. There are quite a few denizens that are incidental to the greater plane itself.

>> No.20040849
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This calls for some John Wayne. And THIS is how I Paladin


>> No.20040860
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I'm Really late to this party, but for what it's worth...

According to one of the books I read of which takes place in Ravenloft (Mind you, it's the one L.K. Hamilton wrote) divine spellcasters are actually unable to get their spells; no renewal, and the ones you have prepared on arrival are likely to have a spell-failure as per ASF or be corrupted/disrupted to have a negative effect. Ravenloft in the planescape hangs out near one of the major negative energy planes and, I believe, is minor negative on its own.

Your DM may rule otherwise, as I know the Expidition to Castle Ravenloft has at least one paladin in it and I Think it has a couple of clerics in the Lightbringer NPC party. However, if you want to run a Paladin and not have to worry about positive energy, you might look toward the Tome of Battle's Crusader, or perhaps a Mystic, Favored Soul, Oracle or Druid so that your source of power is either internally set up or not reliant on direct divine support before multi-classing into Fighter, Crusader, Ranger, or the full BAB class of your choice, perhaps considering a Fightan'/Castan' combo PrC.

>> No.20040869

If you are powerful enough to get your own domain and you have stayed to the path of good, the plane will punish you by putting you into "lol do evil" or "lol babies die" situations, relentlessly driving you into utter despair until your faith breaks and you become just as twisted as the other dark lords. And then it would continue torturing you by reminding you of who you used to be, how you let everyone down and abandoned your fath.

You can't win in Ravenloft. Not if you're good, nor evil, nor lawful, nor chaotic. No, nothing wins in Ravenloft except Ravenloft itself.

>> No.20040876


Note: Paladin's are explicitly singled out to be murdered by the Powers of Ravenloft. It is right in setting guide. If you play one, more power to you.

But you will not survive. And you will not make an impact. But in that, perhaps you can find true heroism.

>> No.20040884

That's how Dr Markov first started; as a normal denizen until he decided to vivisect his wife with an animal's body parts. Again, it's the darker aspects of real life that Ravenloft tries to simulate (like abused children turning into crazed lunatics in adulthood, etc.).


>> No.20040885

That's it, I'm going into the Astral with as many ships as I can and nuking the whole plane from orbit.

If you don't understand how I can do that, then you're not coming for the ride.

>> No.20040890
File: 135 KB, 642x1083, 1336365167537.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Not unless you take whip training and thrown weapon training then you That Guy pic related

>> No.20040898

Let's do it.

>> No.20040902

Whats the name of that evil-hunting dude who travels ravenloft? Richtenstein?

He doesn't bother people except when he needs supplies, in fact he prefers to avoid them - he just travels around ravenloft fucking up werewolves and other such evils as he finds them, because that is literally all he can do - give people brief respite.

>> No.20040909


Someone must have done that.

Actually no, everyone who's played Castlevania and Ravenloft thought of doing this.

>> No.20040914


I like to think of Ravenloft as a casino. They're going to take your money. They always take your money. Of the thousands of people who have walked through the doors, they've never failed to take your money. Even when you win, you lose. Not only will they take every dime they gave you, but everything you have beyond that. This is a place that creates nothing but paupers.

And let's say you do manage to win, and win big. Either they'll throw you out the door, or they'll break your fucking legs and take the winnings back. There still ain't no winning in there.

>> No.20040915
File: 189 KB, 374x374, token.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Already doing it.
>>implying kaiser nuckle isn't beast weapon

>> No.20040920

The most important thing is to roll with the punches as far as character development goes. If your response to corruption is to fold your arms and say "my character wouldn't do that", ravenloft isn't for you and you might be That Guy.

Other than that, you can do whichever character you want.

>> No.20040922

Gentlemen. I suggest we get started on all getting our DMs to run Ravenloft, and we have to be Belmonts.

Live or die, heroic or tragic, we will be fucking Belmonts.

>> No.20040925

See, I know how I'd play a paladin in Ravenloft.
I'd be the town guard, preferably in someplace like Darkon. This is a thing that towns have. They often actually answer to their monarch, who is most likely crazy and evil, but still understands that you have to arrest murderers, thieves, and drunks. A civil authority, who deals with proper crime, not the probably werewolf and undead heavy spy force/secret police, who are only after disloyal subjects.
By day, a weary and beaten servant of the hierarchy of power, like if Police Chief Wiggum were a nazi collaborator.
By night, he strikes out against evil, with his band of righteous comrades.

honestly, I kind of like the idea of a monk using silvered cestuses (cesti?) posing as a hairy, drunken brute who spends half his time locked up in said paladin's prison. for an alibi.

>> No.20040947

>Not knowing a damned thing about Ravenloft
Most of the Dark Lords encourage crime in their cities if they don't commit them on their own.

>> No.20040952

John Wayne, making the dark and edgy generation look like a bunch of queers yet again.

>> No.20040956


Isn't there like.. Lawful Evil rulers at least?

>> No.20040962

I'm pretty sure the Belmonts are like the antithesis of Ravenloft.

>> No.20040967

Depending on the DM, he might choose to keep monsters in line with original mythology instead of D&D rules (where vampires can survive sunlight & where silver has no effect on them).

>> No.20040969

>really not knowing a damn thing about ravenloft
No they fucking don't. ESPECIALLY not Azalin Rex. There, you only get away with crime if you're explicitly in his chain of henchmen command.
That's how most of them roll. Which makes sense, since a king cannot "encourage crime." Because if the king says "nothing is illegal" then it's not a fucking crime, is it?

>> No.20040971

That's sort of the point.

>> No.20040978

Incidentally living in Strahds domain isn't all that terrible - just don't remind him of his birthday, forget to pay your taxes or otherwise do anything to piss him off and you're fairly golden unless one of the other dark lords starts some shit.

Barovia is one of the safer places to be, obey the law and don't do anything that would upset Strahd.

>> No.20040985

Oh please. The guy was a racist, sexist, posturing coward who was too afraid to go fight in WW2 and then lied about not being able to due to injury - while many of his friends were out there.

He made some good films, but as a person he's not particularly admirable.

>like a bunch of queers
Check out what Hardy Amies did in WW2, you fuck. The queen's fashion designer, extremely gay, and he organized the mass assassination of Nazi officials and double agents in Belgium and Europe generally.

>> No.20040992

Uh excuse me? I think you might have not said this correctly because it sounds like you saying "If the DM dictates your character does X, then don't fight it" My characters actions are my own. I don't mind if as a result of my actions I get struck down by something but no DM tells me what my character does.

>> No.20040996

Lawful Evil exists, but not in the Dark Lords. Lawful vs Chaotic is more of a measure of moderation & radicalism; all Dark Lords are radically evil.

>> No.20041014

Actually, it's true; if the DM DOES dictate your character does something in Ravenloft, then it's so & there's no ifs, ands or buts about it.

>> No.20041021

Not really, I mean that in the sense that the two are fairly incompatible. The Belmonts either kick the shit out of Ravenloft or Ravenloft beats down the Belmonts - both ways, you're betraying the source material.

>> No.20041023

you don't actually know how alignment works, do you?
lawful evil is not "moderated evil." it is not somehow less evil than chaotic evil.

>> No.20041032

No, they don't, don't be a fuck anonymous. That is terrible DMing and inexcusable in any setting.

You don't dictate what PCs do. If you want to do that, write a fucking story.

>> No.20041035

It's akin to Romania, where Strahd is Vlad 3rd.

>> No.20041038

>Lawful vs Chaotic is more of a measure of moderation & radicalism
Please don't make bullshit up or preach your personal interpretation of the setting.

>> No.20041040

I'm okay with kicking the shit out of Ravenloft's intended purpose in order to play tabletop co-op Castlevania.

>> No.20041045

That's about as retarded of a rule as favored class is in 3.5
Anyone who actually uses that bullshit is not worth DMing with.

>> No.20041048

So am I, but why not just play Castlevania? Why use D&D, too?

>> No.20041052

Not necessarily. You can absolutely be a Paladin, but it's a world where you are the thorn in the side of creation, rather than a champion of its founding principles.

See, in most D&D settings there is this sort of backdrop in which the Paladin is he protector of some natural concept of Good, and he crushes infidels all day every day, and the universe essentially rewards him for it. Ravenloft is different, because its creators and managers are intrinsically evil beings that despise goodness. No reward from on high will be forthcoming to the Paladin, so his determination must not be tied to recognition by the divine, or at least to reward.

I've done it before. A grim Paladin of Iomadae sucked into Ravenloft, basically fighting an unending battle to keep himself on the straight and narrow path of good without the constant shouting voice of his goddess in his ear, or the promise of eating donuts in heaven with the other 'dins after death.

The battle was philosophical. No amount of good will ever destroy the Dark Ones, and resisting their pull doesn't defeat them, it just defies them.

His mantra was "It isn't about winning." Really fun character to play.

>> No.20041054

My group is not as willing to explore other systems as I am.

>> No.20041058

Actually, you really should read Ravenloft because DMs are 100% allowed to dictate what happens to aplayer's character & even assume control of one based on some dark forces (for example, if a player falls under a Vistani spell & is doomed to behave as a werewolf, then the DM has full control, can skip over the events to keep the player n the dark & totally fuck him over once he's done).

>> No.20041059


Oh and don't try to keep him from any girl called...Tatyana was it?

But yeah, as long as you don't commit crime, you don't lie to him and you don't intrude on his business...he's harsh but fair.

Very Harsh.

>> No.20041061

That's a shame, because basically everyone in Castlevania starts off superhuman and picks up speed from there.

>> No.20041068
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>> No.20041070

Yeah, iPhone typing is not always conducive to full thoughts. What I was getting at was to let your character progress organically, because ravenloft isn't a setting where you generally finish the same alignment you started with. Your character can fight it, but slow, subtle corruption is a big point of the setting too.

>> No.20041080

What system would you suggest for Castlevania: The Tabletop?

>> No.20041083

Then what are the meanings behind Lawful & Chaotic in D&D? Because this is what I got from the actual core rulebooks.

And can you list a single Dark Lord that's not Chaotic Evil?

>> No.20041084
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>> No.20041086

Witness trivial injustice, go insane, fall, kill a bunch of people, and then die.

Failure is unacceptable, do not advocate it.

>> No.20041090


That's not how ravenloft works. The STRUGGLE against what's happening is what makes something tragic. A GM can't just say 'You do this'. He CAN put you in terrible situations that get worse and worse...with that as an out...but he can't control your character in Ravenloft any more than any other setting.

Strahd isn't tragic because he killed his brother, he's tragic because he CHOSE to kill his brother in his obsession. It's the choice that matters.

>> No.20041091

So is this place worse than Dark Sun?

>> No.20041095

I personally would probably try and hack Legends of the Wulin, but an easier route would probably use a supers RPG system as a basis I think.

>> No.20041098

Physically, not necessarily. Morally, pretty much.

>> No.20041100

It's a worse place for a hero, but a better place for the common man.

>> No.20041105

>>slaughtering of a human being
you fall for being a dipshit.

>> No.20041107


Strahd von Zarovich. Lord Soth. Both ARE the Law and will enforce it.

>> No.20041129
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>Ravenloft uncorrectable paladin.


>> No.20041130

Also, this is one of those game ideas I really want to run. I think I'd basically set it in a Demon Castle War-type situation and have Dracula's Castle manifest in the middle of a highly populated city so there's opportunities to interact with survivors and other living people as well as the denizens of the castle. Additionally, giving it this 'final confrontation, major incident' vibe would make more sense of players (presumably) coming from a wide variety of the backgrounds present in the series (Belmonts and Morrises and Lecardes and half-vampires and werewolves and Belnades and church-trained Witches and magical rune users, etc.)

>> No.20041143
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Where the hell did you people learn about Ravenloft from?

Those of us who've been around for a long time remember Van Richten, and his descriptions of Ravenloft.

Ravenloft is evil-aligned, but subtly so. For the average person, it is indistinguishable from anywhere else, save that on occasion dark things come in the night, and the forces of good are weaker.

But they aren't impotent. Van Richten showed that. There are hunters of the dark, and the evil. And they win. Often, do they win - they purge the evil.

But they're on top of a bubbling cauldron. There's always MORE evil. It doesn't go away. And they are weaker here, less supported. But they still exist, and still fight, and many die without the slightest hint of corruption.

If anything, Ravenloft is a prison for the evil. It destroys it, tortures it, gradually wears it down. It's like a sinkhole there's little escape from; an antlions pit. Evil goes in - and it stays.

Weak as it is, good exists, and it purges evil. The Domain Lords are not in charge of their domains so that they can indulge in evil, they're lords so they can be tortured. They're the star guests at the spectacle of evil torturing evil. Good will never purge all the evil, but that isn't the purpose of the place.

Good wins in Ravenloft all the time. Indeed, the only one that consistently loses, often in the most horrible ways, is evil. It is not a land where evil wins, but a great grinder where evil destroys evil for its own amusement, forever.

>> No.20041150

Well I didn't think my thread would get so much attention.

Also, I WILL be starting from scratch, so dismiss all notions that I'll try taking on the entire world and such.

I'm actually going for more of a nice guy rather than a "kill all the bad guys" character, more Kenshiro than Frank Castle. (Without any of the physical power of either!) Journey around with the party, save the young man cornered by undead despite being able to sneak by.

Give a food ration to a starving young girl, save a person from corrupt authority figures, basically spreading kindness in small doses throughout my journey, and hope it affects the people I meet in positive ways despite their shitty existence.

>> No.20041151

thats neat and all, but i dont see a problem with using pathfinder.
Just revamp the terrible whip rules.

>> No.20041152

Acknowledging the truth is not fall-worthy. The Paladins slaughter human beings daily, it is not a significant event.

What it is is evil, and it is worth fighting against, but it is NOT worth snapping, falling, and murdering a bunch of people over. That is how idiots think.

>> No.20041154

However, there are times where the player can lose control over his character (at which point the DM takes control of the character as an NPC & does whatever is necessary to drive the story).

Like that example of a Vistani spell you make a player behave as a werewolf; does a normal player still have control or proper memory when transformed? Is there any will & self-control over a specific task that was done in this state?

Better yet, how about getting drugged by an insanity-causing potion? If you get drugged, roll a saving throw; if saved, you just feel disgustingly sick. If you're not, you lose your mind & have no control whatsoever over your own actions. Does this mean that, if you lose control over your actions, that you still have control over your actions?

That's why Ravenloft's rules allow for DMs to take control over PCs, but within bounds.

>> No.20041158

Ravenloft has plenty of room for paladins, but it's a setting where you aren't allowed to bitch when the DM gives you a stupid contrived situation that causes you to go crazy and fall. The Dark Powers love that stuff.

>> No.20041161

But that's exactly what Ravenloft wants. It wants to break your faith, and it wants you to snap, go on a killing spree and grow twisted and powerful. Because then it has a reason to give you a domain. And then it tortures you, and don't even think of trying to kill yourself to escape your horrible fucking existance, because RAVENLOFT DOES NOT LET YOU DIE EITHER.

There is no escaping despair once you enter Ravenloft. The only winning move is not to play


>> No.20041162


>Good wins in Ravenloft all the time. Indeed, the only one that consistently loses, often in the most horrible ways, is evil. It is not a land where evil wins, but a great grinder where evil destroys evil for its own amusement, forever.

I think the best way of describing it is 'Good's Victories are fleeting...but Evil's loss is eternal'

>> No.20041164

That's cool, I think Pathfinder is a p. awful system and wouldn't want to constrain everyone in classes and dull as fuck combat.

>> No.20041165
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it is not trivial.
you have lost your way. Atone or begone from the path of justice and righteousness.

>> No.20041175

>Ravenloft has plenty of room for paladins, but it's a setting where you aren't allowed to bitch when the DM gives you a stupid contrived situation that causes you to go crazy and fall.
You're totally still allowed to bitch about 'kill baby y/y' scenarios.

>> No.20041177

Has anyone here checked out the Swords & Sorcery Ravenloft? I think it reins in the all-evil-all-the-time nonsense, ("Dark just isn't interesting without at least the tiniest bit of light" or something like that) and tries to establish in the GM's brain that it's a multi-dimensional horror game, as opposed to a depressing PC meatgrinder. Also, it makes the Dark Powers inscrutable jailer-types instead of the DM just being a dick.

>> No.20041202
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Paladin isn't about winning.
It's about doing the work that needs to be done, and doing it as well as it needs to be done.

>> No.20041204

Does atoning mean 'surfing a wave of twisted spines into hell' or whatever? Because no. That is not a Paladin's behavior.

Acknowledging that there are different calibers of injustice is legitimate. One person being executed in an unjust fashion is an ultimately trivial excuse for falling in a dramatic way. It is something that you can deal with without becoming a psychopath.

The Powderkeg Paladin philosophy is a crock of shit, and rejecting it out of hand is not something that requires atonement.

>> No.20041214
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>> No.20041215

That's different to what you said. That's failing a saving throw against a spell or potion, those are understandable times where you lose control... But just saying "Your character drinks the potion" you had no intention of drinking, that's shitty DMing, I don't care if you wanted to turn me into a braindead zombie every odd hour, you can wait for me to slip up, or run into something evil that will cast that spell and for me to fail my will save.

It's never okay to RAILROAD a player, I don't care what setting it is.

>> No.20041216

This is stupid as fuck.
Heres how someone whos not a complete retard would do it.
>>after failing the save
"Hey rogue"
"I want you to X/can you please X for me?"
>>rogue then ROLEPLAYS what the DM asked him to do.
Short of playing 20 questions and giving my DM a full detailed back story and forcing him to read it and abide by it, there will never be a reason short of disallowed alignments for a campaign to hand over the character sheet to act as an NPC. If the DM has a mechanic that makes the player do something, he may use it, but he may NOT take control of the PC.

>> No.20041222

Strahd, The lich (cant remember his name), Lord Soth. Ravenloft is the demiplane of dread, it is tied to the plane of evil. Lawful evil is not less evil than neutral evil or chaotic evil - They are *all evil* just in slightly different ways.

>> No.20041239

>save the young man cornered by undead despite being able to sneak by.
>Give a food ration to a starving young girl
>save a person from corrupt authority figures
And that's exactly where problems will start.

Remember; Detect Evil shows that everything radiates evil, including those who aren't, because nothing in this demiplane is temporal or material (i.e.: it's a dream you can't wake up from). This means you don't know who's truly needy & who's only pretending in order to catch you as their prey.

That little girl who's starving could actually be a vampire. That young man concerned with undead might be on the verge of lunacy & can snap at any moment. Ravenloft is, essentially, simulating the nightmare that is abuse, neglect, murder, rape, theft, deceit & every single sin known to drive people mad.

>> No.20041254

No. Ravenloft is a place where the Dark Powers wish to torture you, yes. But they will not go after you directly if you are not evil. That's part of the rules.

All they do if you are good is tempt you. You carve your own path to damnation if you like. Good individuals remain good if they choose to do so, knowing all the evil will never be purged.

Good can't "win" in Ravenloft. You can't purge all the evil because new evil is always being dragged in. But you can purge evil, and get away with it. Indeed, the dark powers are absolutely okay with you killing basically anyone except the Domain Lords, who are their favorite chew toys.

And even then, it's possible. Just quite difficult. Van Richten devoted his life to hunting evil - and succeeded. He killed a lot of it, gave information to others, and many hunters were inspired in his wake. He left the world a better place then when he came.

The dark powers tempted him. They tried hard to corrupt him. But in the end - he simply wouldn't be corrupted. And that is all there is to it.

>> No.20041255
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I will not tell you what atoning means, you must seek it, I can tell you what it's not though. Dodging your own irresponsibility to comment on the wrongs of others.
Stay on topic, or better yet, begone.

>> No.20041257

For context, the original thread was about how paladins can never legitimately avenge injustice because they'd have to kill lawful neutrals en mass to avenge/rescue/bring to justice.

So the pic is the paladin going "fuck it, I know right and I know wrong and I have the god given decency to know which is which. I'M COMING AT YOU BRO!"

Also, the original OP pic is a snuff comic where a woman is raped and then accused of being a hooker and sentenced to death. Real chilling rage inducing shit.

>> No.20041264


That's what makes it more interesting though, rather than just use your mind powers to figure out if someone is worth saving or not.

You see someone in need, and you help them, because doing nothing is antithesis to your very soul, despite whatever danger doing that good may inevitably put you in.

>> No.20041270

"It isn't about winning" has a really good ring to it, because topically it implies the boring 'we're all winners' mentality, when in actuality it's exactly the opposite.

Also, wasn't that the last words of the bad guy of Battlefield 3?

>> No.20041283

That's where the weak fall and the strong continue. The strong one accepts that he may make a mistake, but chooses to continue his actions because inaction is just as bad.

Although how the fuck is a young man on the verge of lunacy being saved by Undead a bad thing? Yes he's on the verge of Lunacy but that does not forgive letting undead gank a man.

>> No.20041285

You're talking nonsense to justify a ludicrous assertion: That in the face of an injustice, it is EVER acceptable to go insane and kill people. That is wrong. That is not Paladin. There is no excuse for this, ever.

>> No.20041286
File: 106 KB, 753x1062, The_Black_Knight.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>implying that was the first time id seen that
>implying it was even the tenth
>implying i even know the number

No, it wasn't that they were about to execute that child that made me snap. Though it shames me so, I've pushed aside that horror before. No, it was because as I watched them pick her up, and stand her on top of that apple crate so that her neck could reach the noose, in that one instant, I realized *I had lost count*. That, when I went to push aside that horror again, there was nothing there. I had walked past so many tiny injustices, so many lives snuffed away before the baying crowd that I couldn't even feel sick at the sight anymore.

Well, if they will steal even that away, If this world won't even let *me* feel horror anymore, then at least these vermin will. I see it in their eyes, as my blade slakes its thirst.

>> No.20041303

Actually, the point of a DM assuming full control over a PC is so that the player's force to investigate why everyone's antagonistic against him & for him to figure out what he did in a state where he had no control. That could imply the player in question having to leave the room & the DM roleplaying in his place as an NPC.

If a player isn't contious of what he's doing, why should he know what he did? How can he know what he did other than by investigating?

>> No.20041317

Yes, but remember it's ultimately gothic horror - about tragedy, and the strange and unknown.

Not EVERYTHING is twisted and evil, but plenty is. Everything good you do should not rebound upon you.

Remember, this is where you'll encounter not-dracula, or get to see Snow, Glass, Apples play out. Not, "let's punish everyone who tries to be good."

Frankenstein, Carmilla, and the like are there. This is a land of karmic punishment for your sins, and a land where your sins damage others - not a land where the innocent are punished for being innocent, or the righteous are punished for being righteous.

Only the monsters who do evil act to harm others - the powers themselves only help evil individuals do evil. They are uninterested in those who are not evil.

>> No.20041332
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Look at how far you've fallen. Do you actually believe that drivel you spittle forth like the inane being you've become?
My assertion was that your crime of dismissing the slaughtering of an innocent person as trivial is disgusting and unfitting of a paladin in ANYONES ranks let alone my own. Continue on your delusional path and I assure you no atonement spell will bring you back to grace under me.

>> No.20041335

>This is a land of karmic punishment for your sins
Damn, lesbian sex is evil in Ravenloft?

>> No.20041340

I repeat: the point of that post was "fuck the lawful neutral guards, fuck the mob, I'm giving warning and a challenge and then I'm going to AVENGE and if you get in my way you're equally sinful."

>> No.20041344

In Ravenloft? No excuse for dark forces to assume control over your body, separate your soul from it & make you kill others? Nice assumption.

>> No.20041356

This is the type of Paladin I play


>> No.20041379

Fuck you! Paladins do not kill people for doing their jobs! There is a heart of darkness that causes these injustice, IT can be ripped out, but murdering guards and angry peasants is not justice, it is not good, and it is not acceptable behavior.

I do not care if almighty God comes out of the sky and gives the command, I do not kill people for being the unwitting servants of evil.

>> No.20041384

Ravenloft lords can sense the exact location of all paladins in their realm

>> No.20041391

Whoever wrote that into the fluff was a fucking retard.

>> No.20041403

You've missed the entire point; you're assuming that you KNOW who's good & evil when you don't. That's the whole point of Ravenloft; to prevent you from knowing until you become a victim of someone else's sins.

It's not that evil only preys on the good (though it's extremely frequent); evil preys on everything in Ravenloft, especially those who show some weakness through random acts of kindness without prior knowledge of who's who.

It's like in real life; you drop a penny in a pan handler's cup. Are you sure the pan handler will appreciate the penny, or will he get up & knife you for not giving more?

>> No.20041417

Can you explain how when Jander Sunstar was finding some peace in his gardening the dark powers chose to make his touch utterly destructive to plants then?

Also, fun fact - Jander Sunstar didn't die, he's still around in ravenloft somewhere.

>> No.20041421
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Once again you continue onto your path of delusion.
You who claim to speak for the gods. who attributes false action to your own inability to admit your wrong doing, are forever barred from the mantle of grace within my ranks. Though I wish for you to return to the path of the light, You shall never return to the path of grace under me. May others be more lenient should you become deserving in the future.

>> No.20041427

I wonder at what point of your training this kicks in?

What if you're really unsure of the commitment? "I'm going to be a paladin!" "Although... that moral code is really quite strict..." "But chicks dig dudes willing to stand up for something!" "Wait... are paladins celibate?"

>> No.20041443

If a world of lawful neutrals defends the ultimate chaotic evil, there's never a reason to kill lawful neutrals for knowingly defending him?

There's a certain point where alignment no longer factors in. You give a chance to surrender, but don't have to deal non-lethal damage on an alignment basis.

>Mob boss child serial rapist cannibal demon worshiper hides in the warehouse.
>His bodyguards surround the building
>Heroes cannot kill them because they're just in it for the money, and although they don't believe he's evil they also refuse to reason about it?

It's not Superman tier paladin. It's not "you fall" tier though. Lawful neutral deities especially won't care, a paladin of Saint Cuthbert can smite and cleave the fuck out of anything defending an evil.

>> No.20041445
File: 40 KB, 339x240, fucking lesbo.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>>has to ask if lesbianism is a sin.

>> No.20041453
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and fuck you too. what do you consider the guard? a mindless tool of the lordlings and merchants? and the peasant? a mere animal to be scolded or petted until it behaves? no, they are human beings and masters of their own action. the fat judge who signs the death warrant without so much as reading the names, the hangman who ties a noose with as much thought as he puts into making a sandwich, the guard who patrols hallways lined with cages and sees nothing but bars, the baying peasant who lifts his son upon his shoulders to watch a stranger die. all of them are guilty.

>> No.20041456

How tragic, I'm denied service in the name of a god who would have me snap and kill a bunch of beat cops for carrying out unjust laws that they are clearly acclimated to in their ignorance.

I suppose I'll just have to keep being effective. What a pity.

>> No.20041481

Carmilla was quite a bit more complex than that. Basically she was an adult (undead) woman literally vamping on and killing young girls, in addition to having sex with them.

Moreover, she's the ancestor of Laura, the main character. So wincest.

But the tragedy comes in that Carmilla is not wholly evil. She became a vampire, leaving her lover and traveling this path, becoming a creature of darkness.

She's ultimately destroyed, but has left countless people dead, Laura greatly weakened and emotionally traumatized, and she herself is remembered as a monster.

Carmilla's story is a tragedy, not just a monster story. That's what good Ravenloft stories are made of, since they are based upon the Gothic Horror genre of that time.

>> No.20041488

Yes; that's exactly what Ravenloft is all about.

It's like religious revelation; the difference between a soldier of God & a simple murderer is only through the reasoning behind their acts. A paladin can kill & violate one of the 10 commandments, but he did so for a better purpose (like saving a girl from getting stabbed with a steak). But what if the girl was a vampire & the man he killed as a vampire hunter?

Interestingly perplexing conundrum.

>> No.20041490

Looks to me like you're just a retard who can't read.

>> No.20041505

It's not really more complex than that, the motto of the story is more or less 'lesbians are evil okay'. Laura is not "remembered as a monster" and she's not a particularly tragic character, given she's killing dozens of people and is only momentarily fascinated with Laura.

>> No.20041514

The literal text of the screencap was about falling, and taking that fall to the fucking max.

Well I don't believe in falling, and I don't care what the justification is. You can resolve your problems without snapping and becoming a lunatic. Nobody seems willing to hear what I'm actually saying here, everyone wants that post to be some sort of grand diatribe against passive acceptance of evil, but it fucking isn't.

It's an infantile expression of despair. It's Tryhard Fallen Hero bullshit, and I'm not going to fucking argue about it if nobody is going to argue with me in good faith.

Keep your goddamn powderkegs. Faggots.

>> No.20041527

whats infantile is how your rage is blinding you to what people are actually saying.

>> No.20041558

You've forgotten The Island of Dr Moreau & the movie Messiah of Evil.

Dr Markov's based on Dr Moreau; though he killed his wife by trying to transform her into a broken one, he still retained his love for vivisection & ends up dieing for it at the hands of Akanga (who is himself a broken one hell-bent on revenge against all humans).

And Messiah of Evil? There's a race of people called the Quevari who are based on the denizens of Messiah of Evil.

>> No.20041578

Then he makes right what he did wrong. And any good paladin will check things out, if able, before he attacks.

You can't control the actions of others, only your own actions. You cannot control whether others misuse your good actions toward them. You can only control what YOU do.

Paladins choose to do good, no matter what. To act on that principle. Can they be wrong? Absolutely. And if they are, they must make amends.

But being wrong does not make them evil, even if they mistakenly do an evil act. It means they've made a mistake. Provided they seek to honestly make amends, and continue trying to do what is right, their pursuit is justified.

But a good paladin is guided by their god. They know whether or not striking someone down is justified, or whether stopping that is justified. Gods guide them.

This voice is muted in Ravenloft, but that doesn't mean they do not still have their own innate sense of morality - and the education and training to think things through - to guide them.

A good paladin thinks, then acts, in accordance with what he best believes to be good. And the pieces fall where they may.

>> No.20041583

You do realize that there's more ways than 'Detect Evil' to tell if someone is evil right?

>> No.20041595

Calm down bro, I was actually in that original thread and remember the way the conversation had gone.

It's not about killing as many people as you can blackguard style, it's about switching from being able to be shoehorned into defeat by a villain hiding behind the masses and cutting his evil from the world.
Literally spiritually suicide bombing the greatest evil the world has ever known by making the difficult decision of failing your oaths and original world view in favor of the straightforward approach.

>CHOOSE! The lesser of two evils, "champion"! Let the baby fall in the lava and lose your humanity or let the ten men fall in the lava and lose your god's favor!

>> No.20041636

Holy shit.
That song made me cry. Jesus fuck.
Fuck you. Fuck you and everything you stand for.

>> No.20041640

Theme song for any adventuring party in any setting

>> No.20041652

You got Laura and Carmilla mixed up there. Carmilla is certainly remembered as a monster.

But the important thing to remember is that Carmilla perishes for her own evils - which, even with modern morals saying it's okay for girls to kiss girls, she's pretty damn evil. Remember - incest, murder, preying on young girls, betraying those closest to her, and becoming undead. Plus, her passages aren't sweet - they're creepy.

>Sometimes after an hour of apathy, my strange and beautiful companion would take my hand and hold it with a fond pressure, renewed again and again; blushing softly, gazing in my face with languid and burning eyes, and breathing so fast that her dress rose and fell with the tumultuous respiration. It was like the ardour of a lover; it embarrassed me; it was hateful and yet overpowering; and with gloating eyes she drew me to her, and her hot lips travelled along my cheek in kisses; and she would whisper, almost in sobs, "You are mine, you shall be mine, and you and I are one for ever".

Undead immortal woman literally consumes young girls with creepy possessiveness: The Novel.

I didn't forget. That is of course one of the great inspirations for Ravenloft. We're not talking an insanity inducing, corrupting influence like Lovecraft. This is dark gothic, and is more tragic and karmic in its themes.

You do wrong, hurt others due to your own flaws, and then are punished for it. That is what Ravenloft is. It lays out all the tools, then whispers that you can have your wife back if only you kill a few people, and make a flesh golem. And of course she comes out wrong and murders everyone.

That's how it works. Not, "lol, everyone's corrupt forever". (Note: Not saying this was your argument, just a general stance in the thread.)

>> No.20041673

Yes, but there's more than simply trying to detect the presence of evil in a place that holds plenty of it.

Again, everything temporal is immaterial; it's all a dream (or is it?). That means detect evil, detect alignment & other detection/identification spells to be used on characters will produce no correct/desirable effect.

You could be Lawful Good. Try casting detect alignment on yourself; you'll probably yield one of the three evil alignments instead because of the dark forces' presence (you'd essentially be detecting the dark forces' alignment). All is a shadow in the dusk; no real way of finding someone's character or way of thinking through magic will work as even the living are phantom illusions of the demiplane itself. There's no body, mind or spirit because the demiplane of Ravenloft is the singular body, mind & spirit.

>> No.20041711

All this talk of DMs controlling PCs reminds me of some really stupid 'Falling' stories, like Paladin's trying to send a young child home, only for the child to steadfastly refuse, be equipped by another party member and then killed in a trap. Or another time, a party member tripped while they were escaping a collapsing lair unbeknownst to the Pally and got killed. Pally falls.

News flash for aspiring DMs, A Paladin's God is not out to rid them of their powers because of something they chose.

Also news flash to aspiring DMs? paladins aren't actually required to defend the innocent; their code requires them to punish those that threaten and/or harm the innocent, but not to actually protect said innocents in question.

>> No.20041723

So you missed the point entirely.

There is more ways to find out if someone is evil than MAGIC is what I'm saying. That you don't need the supernatural to be able to suss out a persons true nature.

>> No.20041724

You've nailed the coffin (pun intended).

That's exactly what Ravenloft's all about; consequences to your actions & the epic war between good & evil, resulting in the compromises that lead to tragedy.

It's like the bible as well as the Gothic stories. Do what thouw wilst; expect the consequences.

>> No.20041751
File: 371 KB, 945x1400, 7.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I finally found the hentai comic the "paladin done right" image was in response to.


I forget exactly which chapter in the series the thread was started, but the stories are all pretty much the same. Sweet innocent girl, passive lawful neutral forced to take part in her destruction OR an absolute evil monster who routinely does such terrible things and will never be punished.

The paladin in the post is like "fuck tradition, fuck oaths, and fuck the mob. Once I give fair warning I don't care who gets in my way, this mockery of justice can't go on. Even if I have to die and find damnation to bring it to such an end."

The paladin has accepted his fall in the fashion of a Greek tragedy hero. This terrible fate is where the chain of events all beyond his control have brought him and his only choice is the one that is to die a forgotten coward or a doomed champion who will be remembered for all time.

>> No.20041777

You're only now beginning to understand, but not entirely.

Like I said, nothing is corporeal, material or permanent in Ravenloft. Everything's dynamic. Just because you can't use magic to detect a person's true character, it doesn't mean you can't figure them out. However, it DOES mean you can't figure them out completely, or figure out their reasoning/intentions until it's too late.

Just like in real life. I'd like to see you figure out who's a pickpocket & who isn't when you're in a foreign country (because I know you won't be able to). The same applies in Ravenloft. You'll never know instantly who a person is until you delve into their minds, but how deep can you go? How deep do you have to go? And how well can they hide their dark side from you? In Ravenloft, they can hide it pretty damned well & kill you before you find out, seeing how you're That Guy who thinks you can easily figure out who's who.

>> No.20041778

Exactly. That should be the tagline.

"Do what thou wilt; and suffer the consequences."

>> No.20041820

The best Paladin story is "The Deed of Paksenarrion".

Hands down.

I can't give it a fair summary, save to say that it's exactly how Paladins should be done. Paks is the perfect Paladin, a true exemplar of virtue - despite not always being virtuous.

The first book in the trilogy is also free to read, so fucking read that shit. NOW.


>> No.20041824

I don't think it's 'Easy' to figure out who's who. I think that you're a very blind one track mind idiot who doesn't expect a good character to be methodical because... why exactly? I'm 'That Guy' because my character doesn't just save the little girl and slaughter the attacker but prevents the kill and investigates both.

Because I don't need magic to investigate a situation, and I never said "I'll never make a mistake" So for the record go fuck yourself.

>> No.20041851

>prevents the kill
>lets willful malevolent undead loose
>hamstrings the undead slayer, leading to the demise of innocents

You may not have time to investigate, Clouseau.

>> No.20041852

Player: So my character goes into the temple, with his whip of chords, and attacks the moneychangers, throwing them out.

DM: Lol, you can't attack people. Especially in temple! Jesus falls.

That fucking DM and his retarded sense of morality.

>> No.20041907

You don't need magic, but you do need intelligence to know that, if you killed the vampire hunter while he was trying to kill a vampire, you'd better be ready to destroy her before investigating anything.

Prevention won't help. You can't readily tell if someone's a vampire or not unless you can notice specific features which can be hidden quite easily (considering that vampires are shape shifters).

You need more sense. You're not That Guy for doing your duty as a paladin; you're That Guy for not having the wit to realize that you could be putting yourself in greater peril against something you least expect, that you won't be completely ready for.

To you, a vampire hunter killing a child vampire can easily look like an abusive father killing his daughter. Killing him won't do good or she'll kill you. Preventing him won't do good or she'll still fight & try to kill you both. And just try to kill her conventionally, with the assumption that she's human; you'll only anger her & start a 3-way melee.

>> No.20041927

Who said I'll let either go?

>> No.20041934

>Struggling to stay smart
>In the face of danger
Kill the man with the steak, they said. Protect the girl, they said

>Daily Gazette: Vampire girl drinks 13th victim
If only it was the type of drinking I'd imagine in a porno.

>> No.20041949


Who said you have a choice? Imposing a rigid moral code on yourself doesn't enable you to impose it upon the world.

Faster than a vampire? Possess the tools to stop one in its tracks? Going to even have time to react when the little girl hisses and leaps over a building?

>> No.20041953

Who said that you're strong enough to physically restrain a hungry vampire? Because an adult vampire is as strong physically as 10 men & adolescents are still fairly strong. Who sais that you'll be able to restrain a vampire when it's obviously stronger than you, even in child form?

That's the beauty of Ravenloft; the entire universe is a troll, trolling retarded people like >>20041927.

>> No.20041955

You're meta gaming.

That's all well and fine for a rational character, but sometimes it's better to just go for the kill.

Ever seen an intelligent player purposefully play lawful stupid non-sarcastically.

>> No.20041978

No because I generally see people invest in their intelligence scores.

>> No.20041981

I like how everyone arguing this will somehow miss the obvious signs that the man is a vampire hunter, like the fact that he's attacking her with a holy symbol and a sharpened stake.

If he's not, he's not a very good vampire hunter.

>> No.20041987

>Struggling to look smart
>Struggling to defend uneducated opinions
>Still insistent on being right when obviously not
RPGs are all about "metagaming." They're all about strategy & thinking outside of the box before you fuck yourself over.

You really are worse than That Guy; you're That Autistic Retard.

>> No.20042001

>Kill a man with a steak

Oh come the fuck on. That's no where near a common weapon or even a common improv weapon even in Ravenloft for someone stumbling on that scene to assume "Hey there's a man attacking a little girl"

>> No.20042007

And if the player doesn't notice this, then he's a pretty retarded paladin.

>> No.20042025

>Implying you don't kill vampires with steaks
You'd be surprised at how common shit like this is in Ravenloft (because it's all movie & literature tropes).

>> No.20042028


To be fair, if the DM explicitly pointed out that he had a stake, it would be hard not to metagame ad figure out the girl was a vampire.

>> No.20042034
File: 239 KB, 800x1085, HELL FIGHTER PALADEEN.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

This is how you play a Paladin in Ravenloft OP


>> No.20042041

You know; people in Ravenloft can go crazy & use anything to kill anyone. A steak's still pretty sharp to kill a living person.

>> No.20042044

That was my first post in the thread.

Generally speaking, it's kinda boring to stop and analyze a moment from different angles when it's a "you suddenly see" kind of thing.

>You see boulder encrusted with gems hurtling towards you.
>Wizard casts detect magic, figures out it's an illusion.
>"Fuck it, I'm jumping anyway. I wouldn't wait for the wizard to cast a spell to jump."

>You see two figures struggling, one is smaller than the other.
>Rogue: "There's got to be more to this tha-
>Paladin: "STOP, EVIL-DOER!"

>> No.20042056

I believe that was already mentioned several posts above.

>> No.20042075

>Generally speaking, it's kinda boring to stop and analyze a moment from different angles when it's a "you suddenly see" kind of thing.
>Hurr durr I don't want to analyze a situation before I do an irrational action that will result in my death during a turn based game
Way to go full retard, bro.

>> No.20042081

This so much. "How do you know the little girl isn't a vampire?!"

"Well the holy symbol, the steak, observing the situation for all of 5 seconds, should help me suss out the situation"

I also reiterate something said earlier in the thread, it's not a Paladin's job to protect the innocent, only to avenge harm that falls upon them. So if it did turn out to be an innocent being killed, avenging them is required, but saving them is not

>> No.20042093

He's just playing his character. Not every character would think things out. If you prefer roll-playing to role-playing go ahead.

>> No.20042101

This thread brings to mind a certain post about a man who played a paladin and not only refused to fall, but when presented with the option of "lose faith or babies die" always found a third option, made his own way to win, and never fell despite the GM obviously trying to shoehorn him into falling. Anybody have that?

>> No.20042102

Ah so Paladin's are idiots in your head, and there's no such thing as a smart Paladin.

>> No.20042135

Not in any of my games that I DM, but I'd really love to see that because it proves that my players are smart, unlike the guy who thinks paladins are supposed to blindly kill people who they assume are evil (especially in a world where you never who who's truly evil & who's not).

>> No.20042137
File: 404 KB, 900x740, stealing-noms-03.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Okay, all these people saying he's chasing her down with a steak instead of a stake and a holy symbol just makes me think she's a vegetarian and her father desperately wants to purge the hippie out of her.

In which case of course the Paladin's duty is to help force feed her the meat. It is only just and righteous.

>> No.20042143

Thanks for breaking the ice, bro.

>> No.20042154

The DM trying to make me fall? Oh yeah

>> No.20042156

Diplomacy is a Paladin class skill for a reason. Heck, my Paladin is built primarily around Int and Diplomacy, and figuring out the best course of action.

...mind you, after reading Gav and Bob I wanna play an Ogre Paladin.

>> No.20042158

You guys are making me think Ravenloft is filled with barbeques and that raw red meat is the greatest bane of the undead.

>> No.20042183

>Raw red meat
>Greatest bane of the undead
Well, if you replace a hawthorn steak with a t-bone, how bad could the steaking go?

>> No.20042191

Well duh. They're all tall, skinny, pasty people.

Of COURSE they're vegetarians. Force them to eat some USDA prime and they lose their powers.

Their mortal bane is the Porkadin - a crusader for the forces of good who is ready to shove a meaty sausage down the throat of any vile vampiric villain.

>> No.20042205

I'd posted in a thread like that. I doubt I'm the guy you remember, but here's how it went:
A paladin is traveling. Along a road, he meets a devil who hopes to corrupt him rather than kill him. So he gives him a choice, guaranteed to make him fall: He presents a young girl. The paladin must rape her, kill her, or she will suffer an eternity in the Hells.

So what does the paladin do? What can he do? The right thing: He chooses to kill her. Before he does, he makes a vow to the girl. He vows to sell everything in his possession to pay the Cleric of his god to resurrect her, perfectly in tact. Beyond that, he vows to spend every last gold piece to buy the girl's family an estate with acres upon acres of farmland for costing them a daughter and for allowing her to come to harm. And then he vows that if she desires it, he will train her, personally, in his path, to teach her to be a Paladin.

That's how you Paladin.

>> No.20042206

'cuz ya better watch out when a vampire sucks your meaty sausage, bro.

>> No.20042221

A steak is a cut of meat. A stake is a cut of wood.

Know the difference, it could save your life.

>> No.20042225

My character once discovered the woman who seduced him and was currently having sex with him was a vampire.

So I Smote Evil while thrusting and while she was reeling fired Searing Light from my penis. Forever would I be known as the Paladin of Penis Beams

>> No.20042241

Actually, both can save your life.

Eat a steak off of a stake, stake a vampire while eating a steak; solve starvation & vampirism in one go.

>> No.20042248

Or he just smites the devil, because as we've been reminding people, the Code of Conduct does not actually cover 'protecting innocent lives' only avenging them.

But that is a good story for a Paladin Cohort.

>> No.20042253

You want to know how to play a paladin, OP? Here's how it goes.

You are armored, both literally and figuratively by plate mail and faith respectively. You have your sword, your shield, and a slew of abilities bestowed upon you by the god of your choosing.

Now, you do what you think is right. And when presented with the choice to support a corrupt guard captain or murder him? You drag his ass into the town square, smite him in front of everybody, and then step away while he twitches in pain. You show them through your divine blessings that evil was in their midst, and then let them be the judge of his fate.

It's not about wiping out evil. You can try, but that won't happen. What you can do, as others have said, is use everything you've been given to spread good, and inspire others to live just and good lives. And whenever somebody thinks about grabbing that lady and dragging her behind the tavern, whenever that killer thinks about taking another victim or the cutpurse thinks about stealing the hard earned wages of a merchant? Your face is what they'll see, and the wrath of justice is what they'll fear.

You've got your morals, a sword full of smite and a heart full of justice. Go make the gods proud.

>> No.20042254

FATALoft, anyone?

>> No.20042258

>Or he just smites the devil
Hamfisted idiocy. Why assume the Devil is weaker?

>> No.20042272

I know the joke, but in all seriousness she had my arms pinned down, so I used what God gave me to... use what God gave me.

>> No.20042280

Doesn't matter, Code states you must never consort or make deals with an evil being. One who presents such an option, the true option is to fight it.

>> No.20042284

>Forgetting the paladin's in Ravenloft
>A place that's furthest from the gods
>Where evil is in all the places you'd least expect
>Both in "perpetrator" & in "victim"

One important thing to remember; paladins in Ravenloft are very prone to death for a reason; they forget to use proper judgment & intellect when dealing with situations, often going headlong into saving who they perceive as a victim while not realizing they can also be false.

>> No.20042287
File: 737 KB, 723x704, Buccaneer.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


They should have sent a poet.

>> No.20042302


If he smites the devil, the girl spends an eternity in the Nine Hells.

That doesn't sound very paladin-like to me.

>> No.20042325

So I must act stupid because I'm in Ravenloft? Specifically because I'm a Paladin? Lets ignore my ability scores and feats and Skills, because I'm a Paladin and in Ravenloft?

If I know I'm going to be playing a Ravenloft game I'm going to build myself in a way to avoid the most obvious trappings.

>> No.20042332

I wonder how the limerick would have gone.

I once knew an erect Paladin
He named his manhood Saladin
He was raped by a vamp
Who acted like a tramp
(Please complete this line)

>> No.20042334

Again, Code says nothing about protecting the innocent, only avenging them.

>> No.20042338

You say that as if I give a fuck.

I would save who I feel should be saved, regardless of what happens. And if somebody makes me regret that decision? Well, then you can bet they'll regret taking my good intentions for granted.

It doesn't matter how somebody else reacts, or if they backstab the paladin later on. You can't control how other people behave. The only thing you can do is control your own reaction to what surrounds you, and act as you feel best.

Even in Ravenloft, where evil is all around you, a true paladin will not fall. He may be hurt by his values and attempts to bring good to people, and he may die without changing anything.

But when he does, he'll die cursing that evil even to his last breath. Even a tragic hero, in the end, is still a hero.

>> No.20042343
File: 85 KB, 640x480, Porkadin.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I drew this based on the idea.

>> No.20042354

The point is to avoid using pure emotion as a paladin normally would; there's a difference between fighting out of pure doctrine & fighting through your compassion for others.

When one fights through a delicate emotion like compassion, they can be seen as weaker by their true adversaries (those who lay down low & wait for the right moment to strike).

>> No.20042358

He said the opposite. He said in order to be a successful Paladin you HAVE to be smart, because evil is so prevalent and deceiving.

>> No.20042366

She came back round after round.

In all seriousness she became a recurring villain/ALLY for the party, apparently she orgasmed while being smote and the experience was so intense that she became addicted to it. We never found her coffin to be rid of her so she would use guises, amulets, pretending to turn good, all to try and get in the Paladin's pants so she could feel a Smite-Orgasm again.

Needless to say, very creeped out, very fast. Which I think is why the DM kepts bringing her back

>> No.20042372

A proper paladin would pray to his god to save the girl, and smite the devil.

And a proper god would honor the bargain, and assist him.

At the very least he can resurrect her.

>> No.20042374

>A true paladin will not fall
Only in doctrine, he won't fall. In life & limb, he'll fall miserably to an eternity of damnation, having his soul trapped in his corpse.

>> No.20042378


And where's this written down? Don't remember that in the PHB anywhere.

Even if that's what it actually says, I'd consider it a shit code and change it for my campaign.

The true objective of a paladin should be to ensure good's victory and thwart evil wherever possible. Getting yourself killed by smiting a devil and damning a girl's soul to hell is not nearly as impressive a victory for good as thwarting the being's designs entirely.

>> No.20042429


Absolutely nothing about saving the innocent. It's also worth noting you don't have to take all forms of the Code of Conduct.

The typical tenants are

A Paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment.
A Paladin may never willfully commit an Evil act.
A Paladin cannot associate with any character that persistently commits acts which would cause the Paladin him/herself to Fall - notably Evil creatures.
A Paladin must remain truthful and forthright at all times.
A Paladin must give fair warning and due quarter to enemies.
A Paladin holds stealth, subterfuge, attack from the rear, missile weapons and especially poison as weapons of last resort.

>> No.20042442
File: 141 KB, 627x864, Paladin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

If you see compassion as delicate and weak, then you have no right to even give any input on how a paladin can be played.

I need sleep, and so I am done in this thread. Enjoy not understanding the concept that lies at the core of how a paladin should conduct him or herself. From your posts I can quite easily tell that you rarely, if ever, play a paladin. And when you do, you probably make it a point to fall.

>> No.20042458

And lets not forget; Ravenloft.

Paladins are soldiers of gods who are unfortunately distant & all but blocked out by the dark forces.

And Ravenloft itself is nothing more than a terrible dream where nobody can awaken from. All that exists doesn't exist, even thought you can touch, taste, hear, see & smell it. It takes a 6th sense to survive because it takes a 6th sense to understand fully that nothing is what it seems. People can snap into schizophrenia in an instant, the truly evil pretend to be good to get closer to their victims & even the slightest sin & deviation from your true spirit will land you into an eternity of everlasting punishment until you've just given up on everything (including pain & pride).

As paladins, you're bound by a doctrine to be just. But as people, you're bound by the instinct to survive; don't trust your 5 senses, but hone in on your 6th. Maintain logic in spite of even the most emotional situations & you won't fall in body or spirit.

>> No.20042476

>Implying that being emotional during an action guarantees survival
Nice try, summerfag. Enjoy sleeping with your daddy.

>> No.20042477

>Not being a righteous paladin seeking to conquer all in the name of the most competent ruler, Bane

>> No.20042493

>Struggling to troll
Your failure knows no bounds.

>Implying he's not >>20042378
And that's why everyone else but you knows how to play a paladin in a place where paladins are destined to die before seeing level 6.

>> No.20042502

What is it with you and hating on people who are emotional? I've noticed you bring it up a lot in your posts.

And way to prove your point there, resorting to petty insults. You sure showed that guy what's what, you tough guy.

>> No.20042516
File: 445 KB, 507x601, brisby.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

There are two kinds of people posting in this thread:
1) People discussing the Ravenloft setting rationally.
2) People who are on the offensive and strawmanning each other's interpretations of things in greentext.

>> No.20042535

Ravenloft is survival of the fittest & smartest, not survival of the most emotionally driven because they're the most prone to deviating from their doctrine & going insane by the dark forces.

Remember; the evil in the demiplane waits for those to deviate from their spirits. That's why there are so many tortured, mentally ill & maniacal people in the game (including, but not limited to, the dark lords).

>> No.20042547

Trolled much, newfag?

>> No.20042550

Again, Ravenloft is Gothic Horror, not Lovecraft.

Lovecraftian horror is about being at the mercy of an uncaring universe, in the hands of insanity.

Gothic horror is about karmic punishment for ones own flaws, and the monstrous sins you commit.

In Ravenloft, the dark powers actively create monsters who may hunt you. But it is the monsters who choose to hunt you, not the dark powers. They do not strike out against the good and innocent. Their pleasure is in torturing the damned. They WANT you to become one of the damned, so they'll tempt you. But that's all they'll directly do. You make the choice to be good or evil, and what actions you decide to take.

Think of Ravenloft as a place created by a fallen angel. They hate evil, but are evil. Their great pleasure is in torturing evil - so much so that they'll twist good into doing evil, so they can feel justified in torturing more evil.

But they cannot harm those who are good, and cannot harm those who do not give into the temptation. The monsters can - but they aren't supporting the monsters, either.

They want to hurt the monsters; make them feel pain.

Ravenloft is a plane trapped in its own desire for the punishment of the damned. That's all it is, and all it wishes to be - a vast torture cell for evil, created by evil forces.

>> No.20042563

I'm missing the point where being emotional leads to straying from one's doctrine. Having unwavering faith and sticking to what you believe is right seems like it would, you know, not cause one to stray.

>> No.20042603

I think the idea there is that a Paladin is gonna have a hell of a time surviving, and particularly targeted by monsters and evil forces... but if they can survive that, they will wreck shit.

>> No.20042766

This is how I paladin:

When God doesn't answer your calls you


>> No.20042812
File: 87 KB, 450x280, game-of-thrones-ned-stark.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I've never played an evil character and I reckon I never will. I guess Ravenloft isn't for me.

>> No.20042829
File: 78 KB, 483x522, rorschach.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Basically if you play a halfway decent guy in Ravenloft be prepared to end up like Ned Stark. If you're really lucky then MAYBE like Rorschach.

>> No.20042838

Same person? If so, fine. If not, this applies to both of you: why are you such a metagaming faggot? Just because the setting is inherently dark does not mean that a character needs to know this, or be played in a specific way to maximize their survivability in the realm.

People like you ruin this hobby for everybody you're involved with, and you should feel terrible about trying to force your shitty justification for how you metagame onto other people. Your character may survive long, sure, but he's going to be bland as all fuck.

>> No.20042905




>> No.20042906
File: 252 KB, 600x909, madokamagica_artswap_sm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

sure is unjustified asspain in here

I remember a day when the golden standard used to be fun.

If you want to walk two feet into a campaign then be killed because of one reason or other because you couldnt take the time to metagame char gen just a little and you still find that fun, be my guest. But just as there's a reason you will walk blind into a spike pit theres a reason I ask people if theyre playing paladins when I'm rolling evil. It's because a game that lasts longer than a few sessions with less PvP is generally more fun for everyone as well as myself.

>> No.20042910


Is a group of female vampires really called an 'orgy'? Like how a group of crows is a 'murder'? Because if so, that's fucking brilliant.

>> No.20042944

>Is a group of female vampires really called an 'orgy'? Like how a group of crows is a 'murder'?


>> No.20042947

I'd worship that

>> No.20042985
File: 43 KB, 467x700, 1313480650605.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

If you are a Paladin, you save the girl from the attacker.
And if she turns out to be a devil/vampire/eviltangerine/whatever then you deal with her then.
You defend those who appear defenseless and are in apparent need.
Even if it looks like a trap, ESPECIALLY if it looks like a trap.
A real hero looks at a no-win scenario, and marches into the fray regardless.
Not out of recklessness, but rather determination and with a hope for a glimmer of victory.
The only acceptable loss in this game is your own life in exchange for others.

>> No.20043028

There's a difference between making an interesting character despite the adversity you might face, and walking into a spike pit you twat. You sure love to twist things to suit your own logic, don't you?

Unlike some people in this thread I'm not about to engage you in a lengthy debate about why I think you're a terrible player, since I doubt I'll ever be in the same group as you. But I'm bored, and felt like letting you know you're a colossal faggot who probably makes bland characters. Have a nice night.

>> No.20043091

>If your response to corruption is to fold your arms and say "my character wouldn't do that", ravenloft isn't for you and you might be That Guy.

So I'm a That Guy for not liking shitty railroading and having my character's actions wrested from me? Fuck that.

>> No.20043117

I have a deep hatred for paladins, religion and legal alignments in general...but this thread, damn.
guess I was wrong, they're not all hypocrisy after all.

>> No.20043154

Dude, don't listen to this faggot>>20043028
I feel the heroes left in you

>> No.20043172
File: 210 KB, 478x516, Picture 4.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


You're a moron. Killing a bunch people revving up to fatally lynch an innocent is evil? Get the fuck out of here.

>> No.20043186


That's the most important time to stand your ground and do good.

You are that guy, anon. Not the paladin who simply wants to play a paladin.

>> No.20043282

>It is a prison plane.
Well then let's do a motherfucking jailbreak.

>> No.20043318

>I suppose I'll just have to keep being ineffective. What a pity.

Fixed that for you. Moral relativism is the most hilariously sad thing for a Paladin to have. You don't even COUNT as one to me; you're a warrior with delusions. The judge pronouncing the sentence had a choice. The jailor ignoring the proof of her innocence had a choice. The executioner fitting her for the rope had a choice. Every able-bodied man in the crowd had a choice.

Don't tell me they didn't have a choice. They did. They chose evil.

>> No.20043322



>> No.20043328

Pretty sure its called a coven - like most groups of vampires are, although you can do whatever you want in your setting.

You could have a loaf of screaming owlbears if you wanted, and they'd be all like "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" all the time.

>> No.20043376

... You want to pull a jailbreak on the place where some of the greatest evils across all the multiverse are being kept and rendered relatively harmless?

Player characters, no sense of right or wrong.

>> No.20043453

No, they chose safety for them. They chose fear. They chose worry.

People are not evil, they do evil. Evil must be punished, but a man that does evil need only be slain if he will KEEP doing evil. One deed does not condemn every man involved, and choosing not to stop evil is not evil, it is neutral. The guards and hangman had a task, they did it not to hurt the woman, but to fulfill their duty. Those who sentenced her chose injustice, and should be punished, but they had authority and power, and had the right to command the guard and hangman. They could have done better by disobeying, but they did not personally do evil by not stopping it.

And if they had, what of it? You know what they call a man who kills those for a single cruel deed? A tyrant. Men are fallible, one must make allowances or break like brittle iron.

>> No.20043462

>In fact, it's almost worse to be eminently powerful, because of how stark your impotence is.

Well, read some Ravenloft modules.

Because what I remember is... shitloads of energy drains, all sorts of ways to fuck your character over, etcetera etcetera.

Being powerless is NOT a defense against Ravenloft. It is THE setting you want to minmax in. It is THE setting you want to optimize in.

The most memorable sig character, Van Richten, has participated in the destruction of like, 4 liches. Four fucking liches in a place the size of America, and that's not even scratching it; the books describe drider liches, drow liches, elemental liches, psionic liches, cleric liches, wizard liches. And that's just the liches. Holy shit. One lich can conquer a world.

Seriously, Ravenloft is not a place that favors the weak.

>> No.20043502

>And if they had, what of it? You know what they call a man who kills those for a single cruel deed? A tyrant.

A tyrant is an absolute ruler, one who rules without the restraint of law.

>Men are fallible, one must make allowances or break like brittle iron.

The paladin code says nothing of that. On the other hand, the paladin code does say "PUNISH those who harm or threaten innocents," and in the same book, "Alhandra, a paladin, fights evil without mercy."

>... You want to pull a jailbreak on the place where some of the greatest evils across all the multiverse are being kept and rendered relatively harmless?

The fuck? They're plenty harmful to the tons and tons of innocents being tormented and killed by them all the time. So they can still murder innocent people 24/7, but the plane keeps them from being permanently killed. The worst of both worlds.

>> No.20043557

so as long as i do evil out of fear its totally not evil.
Right, gotcha. I'll just be killing your daughter now, What? you cant smite me, I'm just delusional and paranoid with fear, it's on my character sheet, stupid.

>> No.20043571


Again, the nature of Ravenloft puts the fact of whether or not those innocents are even real into doubt.

>> No.20043583
File: 188 KB, 750x534, rorschach.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>No, they chose safety for them. They chose fear. They chose worry.
They chose wrong.

You weep for these men and curse me for destroying them. You claim that what is evil now need not be evil forever, missing the fact that it is evil. NOW. You claim it is 'the law', as if that excused these men for taking an innocent life. You claim they had the RIGHT to do it, as if that makes it better and not worse.

And truly, I couldn't care less for the impotent mewlings of a relativist trying to excuse the murder of an innocent. As I said before, they had a choice. And so do I. You parade words like 'tyrant' as if I should FEAR them, fear the recriminations of lesser men, fear 'falling' from the grace of a God that looks upon the murderers of an innocent without contempt, fear the baseless justifications of those who'd take the smooth highway of inaction over the narrow, jagged path of what is RIGHT.

I don't.

>> No.20043621
File: 24 KB, 302x238, paladin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Once we've pulled off our jailbreak we'll SMITE all the evil that escaped with us and put it down once and for all.

>> No.20043858

Thats a couple thousand liches, vampires, deathknights, werewolves, frankenstein esque abominations, dracoliches, driderliches, wizard liches, cleric liches, psionic liches, dragons, shapeshifters, at *least* one god (OH HI VECNA) and all fucking sorts of other powerful evil beings that you intend to smite all at once after you released them from their prisons.

You might want to think about this *really fucking hard* before you release all the evil from the pit.

>> No.20043878

You hear that, Frank?

We're goin' powergamin'!

>> No.20044339

So to put this in a real world scenario (not entirely fair since good and evil are not absolutes like they are in D&D...) according to those who feel it's okay for the paladin to smite the crowd Basically the entire German nation was evil at the end of World War 2? I mean plenty did oppose the Nazi regime, but many others choose safety and, while not condoning the acts, did nothing to stop them.

A well played paladin would attempt to stop the execution; that doesn't mean they'd go on a killing spree.

Diplomacy is a class skill for a reason and AD&D Paladins required 17 CHA for a reason. If it came down to it a paladin might have to fight (though not necessarily kill if subduing was enough); there's a difference between fighting and slaughtering.

>> No.20044502

Whole situation is a bit silly, but the paladin drew a line in the sand with the girl being executed. He said "This is not what 'good and just' people do. Should you not cease immediately and if you persist in the execution of an innocent - terrible and immediate retribution shall visit all of you through my hand."

Sure, the paladin could have let the innocent die, and then killed those involved and cut out the corruption that was responsible for it, but paladins are supposed to stand as an example. If being an example means smiting the fuck out of the 'lawful' people willing to execute a person they know is innocent, then he's going to set one *hell* of an example. Truthfully they haven't fallen over the edge yet, but they're about to start down a slippery slope - and that is why the paladin acts out of his disgust at them and falls in the process.

The german nation wasn't evil, nor were even all of the nazi soldiers. Some were quite humanitarian (like that guy who used his membership in the nazi party to prevent an even bigger atrocity than the rape of nanking already was), others were just soldiers following orders and fighting for what they thought was a better future, the majority were people merely caught up in a frenzy. But unfortunately in order to get through to smite hitler you regrettably had to smite the fuck out of a lot of simply deluded and brainwashed people (who didn't necessarily know what was going on).

You've got to remember that going into world war 2, the german people were very scared and uncertain and they tried to find scapegoats for all the shitty things in their lives, and those scapegoats were people that were 'different'. It was mob mentality at its worst occurring primarily because the populace was *terrified* of the uncertainties present in their immediate future, a frightened populace was how someone so radical as hitler rose to prominence.

>> No.20044952

And yet if you don't know the difference between the two, you could easily try to eat the stake and try to stab the vampire with a steak. Then you're screwed and hungry.

>> No.20044987
File: 130 KB, 800x401, ThisWillNotDo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Make an analogy out of this image appropriate to that situation and you might have something.

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