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19993517 No.19993517 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Why did the Emperor (beloved by all) hate xenos so much?

Why "Suffer not the alien to live"?

What happened that made him hate ALL other races and even lost factions of humanity that had parlayed or allied with xenos?

>> No.19993571
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19993571

I mean, obviously some xenos need to be exterminated, such as orks. But plenty of peaceful races that wanted only to be left alone were put to the sword during the great crusade. What made the emperor so fanatically xenophobic? I've been trying to find a specific incident in the fluff of the heresey novels but I havent found one yet.

Does anyone in /tg/ know?

>> No.19993590

He lost to Eldrad in a poker game.

It went down hill from there.

>> No.19993593

First Xenos that humanity encountered were Orkz.

Next were the asshole Eldar.

Neither were nice, so everyone assumed they were all evil.

>> No.19993604

When Mankind made their first Imperium they made friends with as many Xenos races as they could. The MOMENT that Imperium started to weaken EVERY Xenos lined up to give it a swift kick to the nads.

So xenos can go fuck themselves, they are nothing but betrayers and fair weather friends. Mankind will stand on it's own from now on.

>> No.19993639

Aliens created the Eye of Terror. It's one thing to ward against the forces of Chaos, it's quite another to fuck with the fabric of reality so much that you create a literal tear in it that grows ever larger. Orks, Hrud, and an entire multitude of hostile alien races needed (and still do) to be put to the sword. Emperor was a beacon of reason and light which has since been distorted to serve the survival of the Imperium. Ruthlessly purging xenos is there because their taint to chaos poses too great a threat.

inb4 TIDF and Tau lovahs

>> No.19993645

DEY TUK HIS JERBS!

Unemployment is a massive problem in the grimdark universe of WH40k, someone had to be blamed.

>> No.19993653

>>19993517
I didn't I wanted peacful resolutions with ANY alien race that wanted to work with humanity.

>> No.19993677

>>19993517
He doesn't hate Xenos specifically.
He just hates anything that would harm humans.

>> No.19993697

>>19993639
The Emperor did kill a lot of peaceful aliens and the humans who coexisted beside them.

He was grade ''A'' douchebag, and your forgetting one little thing HUMANITY EMPOWERED CHAOS AND MADE IT A THREAT TO ALL EXISTENCE!

>> No.19993706

>>19993697
Do people really believe this?

>> No.19993713

didnt he change his mind about Xenos after a while?

>> No.19993714

>>19993706
No, it's just a Eldar conspiracy.

>> No.19993719
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19993719

Were Orks really the first race humanity encountered? Also, although the Eldar were responsible for the eye of terror, was the emperor aware of that fact? how did he know?

>> No.19993726

>>19993697
The Emperor actually liked the Eldar a bit. Tolerated them enough to try and build a webway gate right to his throne room.

>> No.19993729

Xenos that aren't trying to murder the Imperium will undoubtedly try to exploit it for their own gain.

The Emperor knew this.

Even the Eldar would sacrifice the entire human race just to save one eldar.. guardian.

The Tau would simply use humans as their slaves/auxiliaries and prohibit all breeding to control them.

Which is why man is taught to hate the alien from day 1 - Because man is fallible, ignorant and naive.

>> No.19993736

>>19993639
>inb4 TIDF and Tau lovahs

What does the Tau have to do with anything? they came way after the Crusade over. They have nothing to do with this discussion. it seems you want to shit up this thread by summoning THAT GUY.

You bastard!

>> No.19993740

rolled 15 + 8 = 23

>>19993719

>Greatest Psyker in all of existence

I think he'd know there was a rent in the fabric of reality and could probably deduce the only psychic race capable of doing something that stupid.

>> No.19993760
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19993760

Are there any novels and fluff about the 1st iof mankind, back before and during the dark age of technology? The core rulebook says humans were subjugating aliens back then, but its not clear if we were exterminating them

>> No.19993770

>>19993604
This, OP. This is the basis behind the xenophobia. It's -retaliation- for past sins.

>> No.19993779

>>19993729
>The Tau would simply use humans as their slaves/auxiliaries and prohibit all breeding to control them
That only happened once. Once a human, who's lived in grim dark all his life, gets 3 good meals a day and healthcare, why wouldn't he help out.

>> No.19993793

>>19993736

Tau are rumored to be the fabled weapon against the warp in lieu of the Webway since they barely even register on the radar if at all. Hence Rowboat Gullyfen's boy being buddy with them.

>> No.19993795
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19993795

He's nothing but a bigot. If it wasn't for him we could have all hooked up with howling banshees, have beautiful Hudar children, and be living under the benevolent rule of the Tau.

Thanks for nothing.

>> No.19993828

>>19993793
Rumored by /tg/.

It's just bullshit.

>> No.19993857

The Emperor embodied humanity - the good and the bad. He had ambition and energy, but he was also an arrogant and destructive fool.

>> No.19993888

>>19993779
>That only happened once

Did it really happen though? Are you sure?

>> No.19993902

>>19993729
>Even the Eldar would sacrifice the entire human race just to save one eldar.. guardian.

Don't be silly. That wouldn't help them in the short or the long run, and it wouldn't further their endgame at all.

Remember, the Eldar aren't trying to survive. They're trying to protect the galaxy from Chaos. Surviving (at least for a while) is just incidental to that. Their entire plan is to eventually sacrifice themselves en masse in order to kill the Ruinous Powers.

>> No.19993906
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19993906

>>19993795
>Implying humans and eldar are genetically compatible
>Implying Tau rule is benevolent
>Implying you'd want a girlfriend whose main power is screaming at you

>> No.19993907

emperor's imperium =/= post-heresy imperium

>> No.19993915

>>19993795
OR... just maybe OR if horus HADN'T stabbed me in the back I'd have finished the webway, Foregone our need for the warp, advanced humanity back to how it was during the darkage of technology, abolished the preisthood of mars and ushered in a new era of humanity that would transcend even our own galaxy.

Thats kinda what I had planned. Don't know if you knew that. What makes 40k so grim dark? The ultimate human capable of achieving the impossible and dragging humanity from ashes into a galactic empire that stood for reason and betterment of the human species. Who loved all humanity with a fiery passion and only wanted for man to thrive amongst the stars. The ONE good guy in the galaxy, was killed by his most trusted son, just so he could rule the galaxy himself as a damned tyrant and undo all that he had fought for for almost twice the length of current recorded human history.
The Emperor died so you could live. What other did in his name are what tarnish his benevolence.

NOW you see why they made a religion after him.

>> No.19993947

>>19993888
Yes.
But regardless, I still support Farsight.

>> No.19993958

Emps disliked the vast majority of Xenos as they were fair-weather friends as stated previously in the thread, he also despised them moreso because the Eldar had the Imperium in a choke hold for the longest time. The Imperium however still does employ xenos in some matters, but they're second class citizens, which is saying something when you consider how they treat humans.

>> No.19993980
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19993980

>>19993906
>>Implying humans and eldar are genetically compatible

Pic related, deal with it, it's cannon.

>>Implying Tau rule is benevolent

>Implying it's not when compared to the crypto Stalinist Imperium

>>Implying you'd want a girlfriend whose main power is screaming at you

Not their only power...

>> No.19993984

>>19993795

TIDF detected.

>> No.19993986

>>19993947
Are you sure? Because the Narrator who said wasn't sure himself. He simply speculated. And also that wasn't the Canon ending. So it didn't happen.

By the way, Farsight is a racist.

>> No.19993996

>>19993915
So you're saying... the Jews are to blame?

>> No.19993999

>>19993906
>Implying humans and eldar are genetically compatible

But there are canon half-eldar. And I'm not even talking about ye olde Rogue Tader stuff.

>Implying you'd want a girlfriend whose main power is screaming at you

That's every girlfriend's man power.

You got the Tau bit right, though.

>> No.19994013

>>19993984
blanda upp Gue'la!

>> No.19994018

>>19993793
I don't read 40k alot, but what I do get is that Tau are like the half-life Combine in their actions and motivations.

They strip planets of stuff they can use, reduce and suppress populations to numbers they can effectively control - should the need arise for military and police resources to be diverted off planet, I'd imagine they would reduce the human population accordingly.

They're evil, man. Humans are evil too, but atleast they're humans and not alien scum.

>> No.19994044

>>19993980
>>Pic related, deal with it, it's cannon.

It's from Rogue Trader, it's as canon as Space Marines being cops, Zoats, and Obiwan Sherlock Closseau. Deal with it.

>>Implying it's not when compared to the crypto Stalinist Imperium

>Implying the Chaos world of Q'Sal is not better, as is Zweihan's World

>>Not their only power...

You're right, their other power is hacking you apart with sharp objects.

>> No.19994082

>>19994044
>It's from Rogue Trader, it's as canon as Space Marines being cops, Zoats, and Obiwan Sherlock Closseau. Deal with it.

Well, everything in 40K is Canon forever even if its contradicted or from a bad source.

So I guess...you have to deal with it.

>> No.19994097
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19994097

>you will never have a girlfriend who will hack you apart with sharp objects

>> No.19994112

>>19993915
You are now aware that you are sitting at your dining room table. You are leisurely reading all the good news in the Empire's official newspaper. Your strong hands clutch the fine, recycled paper. A gentle breeze wafts through your finely furnished home, and you slowly turn your head.

A tapestry of Farsight towers over your mantle, filling the room with a sense of glorious purpose. Turning back, your beautiful blond haired, blue eyed Eldar wife calls from the next room. "Honey," she says as she kneels in front of you, "I made you a 5 course meal that I will serve you right after I give you a blowjob, because I know a woman's role is to please her man."

As you look up at the pulse rifle on the wall behind her beautiful, bobbing head, it's only now that you notice your chiseled human features.

>> No.19994122

>>19994044
>It's from Rogue Trader, it's as canon as Space Marines being cops, Zoats, and Obiwan Sherlock Closseau. Deal with it.

>Space Marines being cops
Space Marines quell uprisings now as they did then. They were never cops,
>Zoats
They were in the 4th edition nids codex and now the 6th ed rulebook
>Obiwan Sherlock Closseau
Problem?

Besides, most of RT was much tamer and much darker than the internet would have you think. It had jokes, it wasn't a joke.

>> No.19994128

>>19994112

>blonde

ugh no

>> No.19994138

>>19993645 Unemployment is a massive problem in the grimdark universe of WH40k, someone had to be blamed.

On the contrary, it seems like everyone has a fucking job.

You know, that's probably the whole appeal of 40K right there - In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future there is only a steady paycheck.

>> No.19994154

>>19994138
There's more to it than that: the entire fucking regime is built towards making sure everyone fucking contributes.

>> No.19994158

>>19994112
and this is any different from the world I was trying to create how?

The only difference is you wouldn't be looking at a fine tapestry of a TAU TRAITOR you'd be looking at a tapesty of whatever you want

with a woman of your choice
Living a life you wanted.

>> No.19994186
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19994186

>>19993999
>And I'm not even talking about ye olde Rogue Tader stuff.

>> No.19994190

>>19994122
Didn't finish that thought.
They were never cops, and the RT book assumed their design to be a universal power armor design, so many of the people wearing armor like that are not actually Marines. The picture of 'Marines' sitting in a bar, for example, is labelled 'human renegades', not 'Space Marines'.
The picture of Marines about to beat the shit out of a punk is in the very specific scenario of a world isolated by warp storms, where the Imperium comes in every few decades when the storms settle, brutalize the populace and restore order, then leave.

>> No.19994202

>>19994186
Ultramarines novels. One of the corsair lords they run into is half-eldar.

>> No.19994220

>>19994138
>On the contrary, it seems like everyone has a fucking job.

On the contrary, it seems like everyone has indentured servitude with minimal room and board supplied, if that. On Civilized Industrial Imperial Worlds.
Elsewhere, they're just slaves. Or they're tech-serfs in the servitude of the marauding feudal gangs that wrest resources from one another. And so on.

It seems like very few people have a fucking job.

>> No.19994232

>>19994202
Explains why I never heard of it, then, I've kept away from all the Space Marine novels.

>> No.19994235

>>19994220
No one ever talks about the nice worlds of 40k. why?

THEY ARE FUCKING BORING!

>> No.19994238

6e rulebook p.196

>For the moment, the
>Imperium refrains from direct aggressive action against the
>Eldar on a wide scale. This is partly because the Eldar are
>numerically a lesser threat when compared to countless others
>across the galaxy

If Eldar are numerically insignificant compared to countless other factions, why do they get to have a codex?

>> No.19994258

Questions that have been bugging me.

Do or not the average human have a better standard of living under the tau than the imperium? How good is life under the tau?

>> No.19994280

>>19994238
>>numerically a lesser threat when compared to countless others

Even the Tau?

>> No.19994288

Because a major split between 40k and Fantasy back in the day was a serious endeavor to make 40k grimdark so that people would take it seriously as its own franchise. It was never intended as a parody, or a parody of parody, the writers, developers, and executives candidly thought that grimderpifying everything would lead to a greater acceptance of the franchise. 90% of the clusterfuck that is 40k fluff extended from the writers desperately trying to justify the logic behind the various retcons and rewrites.

There is no fully consistent internal logic to explain anything that isn't fan wank or a desperate author saving throw. Now turn your brain off and just play the game and enjoy the atmosphere.

>> No.19994296

>>19994258
Indeed they do, food, healthcare, a job as a merchant or soldier, and freedom of religion.

>> No.19994297

>>19994258
Imagine the infrastructure of the IoM, with the money, and everything, ceot its all located in the realm of a single system.

Thats the Tau empire.

Whats never mentioned is the average human lives a rather decent live in a rather decent and boring world. the stand outs are the heavy metal/ 80s punk theme worlds that scatter the borders of the IoM that are constantly undersiege.

And I do mean MILLIONS

>> No.19994311

>>19993604
>The MOMENT that Imperium started to weaken EVERY Xenos lined up to give it a swift kick to the nads.
That sounds like propaganda. If not, it's Terry Goodkind-tier writing.

>> No.19994328

I've just finished horus rising and horus deliberately stated that they purged every xenos because they were aggressive and did not even try diplomacy. the interex were allied with a xenos race and horus tried to negotiate with them anyway. maybe that xenophobia was because of completely legit reasons instead of douchebaggery

>> No.19994331

Emperor and humanity hates the xeno because the setting is GRIMDARK as hell.
Otherwise, instead of battling with miniature, WH40K would be a trading game, making alliances, trading resources etc.
I mean, it's not like "In the grim darkness of future, there is ALSO war"

>> No.19994332

>>19994238
Because their manipulative nature makes them important in spite of their numbers.

>> No.19994338

>>19994288

this

>> No.19994341
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19994341

>>19994258
This is the life for the common man under the Imperium in a hive city. This or getting enlisted in Target Practice Regiment #490 to be sent out to die for a corpse on a chair. Essentially you're just a slave who works ridiculous hours, gets diseases, and dies without even seeing the stars. Think of it like being a peasant in the medieval times except you're in the future.

Life under the Tau's like the mental aspect of 1984, they try to direct you and rebuild you under what they assume to be the perfect citizen, but it's alright because you get technology, freedom, and the empire actually cares for you a bit.

>> No.19994348

>>19994238
They are not "numerically insignificant", they are "numerically a lesser threat" compared to the likes of Chaos, Tyranids, and Orks, who are all fucking everywhere. Space Marines could also be considered numerically insignificant, but even the rarest of the Marines, the Grey Knights, get their own codex too.

>> No.19994357
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19994357

>>19993795
>wanting to hook up with eldar when there's Bolter Bitches
>wanting to be sterilized by the tau
Never have I been so disgusted by one post. Why not just throw in how much you'd love to suck Slaneesh's cock or get raped by a Flayed One while you're at it.

>> No.19994385

>>19994348

Lesser threat compared to "countless others", not just "chaos, orks, nids and crons".

For all we know Demiurg are more powerful and numerous than Eldar.

>> No.19994386

>>19994297
>Whats never mentioned is the average human lives a rather decent live in a rather decent and boring world.
If it's never mentioned, how do you know? You are assuming that the Imperium is not, as it canonically is, "the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable". Even decent and boring worlds shown in stories usually have a lower tech base than we in our 21st century, and are dominated by superstition.

>> No.19994429

>>19994258
From what I can figure, they do, but they also have less rights and freedoms. It's basically whether you want to live the life of a well-kept dog or that of a free man in shitty living conditions.

>> No.19994437

>>19994341
That's not what Necromunda even says. It's worse.
Most Necromundans run with a gang in their prime years, to defend the territory of their clan or house. So yes, you spend most of your life as a tech-peasant. You spend the middle part as a feudal soldier getting shot at, because the other tech-peasants would like nothing more than to kill your family and seize their food recycling plant.

>> No.19994441

>>19994386
Simple, the Imperium is just TOO FUCKING BIG to oppress ALL OF IT

Its based off of the medieval era, and there were plenty of nice places to live back then, but you never hear of it.

Venice was at war for a total of 500 combined years and produced some of our worlds most famous artworks.
Switzerland has been at peace for the longest in recorded history. Their contributions to the world are banks and a niffty knife.

>> No.19994451
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19994451

>>19994341
>>19994297
Whatever the Tau Empire is or its intentions.

I would rather live in it than survive in this.

>picture related

>> No.19994455
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19994455

>>19994429
I choose to live as a free man LIVING LIKE A KING! And I don't care who I have to step on to do it!

>> No.19994468

>>19994441

But big banks set the rules in global economy, while artworks gather dust in galleries and Venice sinks into the sea.

>> No.19994469
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19994469

>>19994455
>a cocktoy of chaos
>free
Don't make me laugh.

>> No.19994484

>>19994468
how often do you hear about Switzerland in history?

>> No.19994489

Rynn's World is a good read if you want to talk about a peaceful world but that's a Chapter World. Generally speaking peace expedities commerce and since the Imperium is relatively (on most worlds) peaceful it can facilitate production of goods for the war effort. Hives, death worlds, and etc are exceptions to the rule. Basically, get born on a Chapter's Recruiting world. Pray they're not the bloodthirsty sort.

>> No.19994537
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19994537

>>19994469
I am freer than the likes of an Ork, who cowers in the presence of those bigger than him, and freer than the Imperial dog who toils under the corpse god. I am freer than the Tau, who answer to their false prophets, just as frail and weak as the dead Emperor and his yapping lapdogs. I am freer than the Eldar, whose lives are stifled by endless discipline or crushed under the heel of their Archons, freer than the metal men who cannot even speak. And I am certainly freer than the Tyranids, for whom freedom is a truly alien concept. My only Masters are the Gods themselves, and the Gods watch me. They love me. They gift me. And in the end, they will reward me with power and life eternal, and nothing in the galaxy or the Warp will be able to stop me.

>> No.19994540

>>19993795
You ain't getting any half Eldar children living under the Tau.

>> No.19994542

>>19994441
>Simple, the Imperium is just TOO FUCKING BIG to oppress ALL OF IT
>Its based off of the medieval era, and there were plenty of nice places to live back then, but you never hear of it.

The Imperium doesn't rule worlds. The Imperium isn't analogous to a medieval nation with the Emperor as a king, it's analogous to the Catholic church with the Emperor as God. They don't rule planets, they validate the rule of local lords and provide a degree of kinship between humans so that they are willing to sustain the webs of mutual support that make the Imperium useful, like the Imperial Guard.

On worlds like Necromunda, with populations TOO FUCKING BIG to oppress, the oppression is delegated down a feudal chain of assholes. Gangs subservient to gangs subservient to houses subservient to spire clans subservient to Lord Helmawr, who is the only one who deals much with the Imperium.

>> No.19994554

>>19993517
There's a belief many people hold that you can't hate something you understand. That ignorance is the only cause of conflict.

I disagree. Two opposing forces can't always coexist, sometimes conflict needs to happen, sometimes violence is essential. It's a contradictory statement "Violence is good", harming others runs counter to everything our society is built on, it's why murder is so reprehensible and why the normal response to violent action is disgust, uncertainty and repulsion.

But sometimes violence is not only unavoidable, it's the "right" course of action. Would you kill a murderer? Yes. Would you kill a rapist? Yes. Would you kill a pedophile? Yes. Many of you would commit an action that as a society and as people we find abhorrent all because it's the "right" thing to do. The reason you kill them isn't important, the only thing that matters is how you deal with it. How do you cope with committing an act you find repulsive to the core? You hate them, you feed on it, you let it blind reason, you hate them with everything you have because anything less and they've already won.

You don't abhor the alien because they're different, you don't hate the xeno because they're inhuman. The aliens are not monsters, despite the blood they spill, despite every senseless atrocity, at no point have they ever acted outside human understanding, every act of cruelty, every war, every destroyed world, humanity has done these things before and will do so again.

No, you don't hate the xeno for something as infantile as ignorance. You hate them because you have to, because the alternative is too painful to consider, because hatred makes doing the "right" thing easier.

>> No.19994563

>>19994537
>who cowers in the presence of those bigger than him
Is that not the life of a heretic? Kowtow to your superiors and beg the gods for their favor, knowing that the moment you slip up you'll be cast aside like detritus?

>> No.19994564

>>19994258
Depends. Varies from world to world. Some worlds are complete nightmares to live in while others are rather pleasant. The setting is GRIM DARK though so thats why you only really hear about the shitty hive worlds.

Ultramar is a good example of OK imperial worlds to live in.

>> No.19994573

The Age of Strife happened.

It was a period of total alien enslavement, where mankind was just a puppet to the strings of horrible monsters, forced to eat their own babies to survive.

So he said "fuck that noise", made the Space Marines and killed everything ever.

>> No.19994577

>>19994542
>Venice was at war for a total of 500 combined years and produced some of our worlds most famous artworks.
>Switzerland has been at peace for the longest in recorded history. Their contributions to the world are banks and a niffty knife.

"Is it surprising that the people could see their fate and that of the world only as an endless succession of evils? … The feeling of general insecurity which was caused by the chronic form wars were apt to take, by the constant menace of the dangerous classes, by the mistrust of justice, was further aggravated by the obsession of the coming of the end of the world, and by the fear of hell, of sorcerers and of devils. The background of all life in the world seems black. Everywhere the flames of hatred arise and injustice reigns. Satan covers a gloomy earth with his sombre wings. In vain the militant Church battles, preachers deliver their sermons; the world remains unconverted. According to a popular belief, current towards the end of the fourteenth century, no one, since the beginning of the great Western schism, had entered Paradise."
- J. Huizinga, The Waning of the Middle Ages

You know Good King Wenceslas, of the St. Stephen's day carol? I use to think he was a kindly old king in that carol. But it turns out historically, he was just a duke and he died around age 30, murdered by a traitor, already a veteran of several wars. Europe was a shitpile, by and large. So is the Imperium.

>> No.19994582

>>19994564
Tell me what's the ratio for happy worlds to miserable hellworlds in the Imperium?

>> No.19994587

Question. Someone said in this thread that humanity was subjugating alien races prior the age of strife. Think we'll ever actually do that in our history?

>> No.19994592

>>19994386
It's a toss up. The Decent and Boring worlds shown in the books (most of which I am familiar with are the Cain series) are indistinctly modern tech with impossibly high-tech outlying objects and mega-engineering projects.

On one side: you have individual objects that do things which are impossible by modern standards, and on the other hand, you have people driving around in "cars" that are powered by "promethium".

Y'know what would be interesting? A Slice-of-life book from any given planet in the Imperium. It's hard to determine how much things have advanced or regressed without the point of view of a common person.

>> No.19994597

>>19994582
>To be a man in such times is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable.

Canon.

>> No.19994603

To the "peaceniks" that believe in peace with xenos, what is the end game? Do you think the Eldar will just live like normal humans, slowly being out bred until they are a powerless minority? Will the Tau Empire let humans remain the most populous species? How will the xenos coexist when they are in the vast minority? Will the Tau simply leave hive worlds to die since they are too difficult to sustain? Will the Eldar manipulate the galaxy so all the highest ranking politicians are Eldar?

>> No.19994605

>>19994582
I dont know because thats how large the Imperium is TIDF (you really think getting rid of your trip wouldn't make any less obvious who you are). There are around 32,000 hive worlds against a back drop of one million.

>> No.19994617

>>19994386
lasguns, plasma tech, isotropic fuel rods, and star ships are lower tech than us?
lolno.

>> No.19994618

>>19994563
My superiors? Ha! I choose my own destiny! Any man who dares to oppress me will first have to deal with me and my chainblade! I do not need to beg the Gods for mercy or pity, for I am their Chosen! I will rule mortal and daemon alike, and the Gods have elected me to be their unholy champion. And when you lie at my feet, crushed and humiliated, we will see who the one kowtowing for mercy will be.

>> No.19994619

>>19994603
I think the Tau let humans run the hiveworlds. The Tau officials just order the governor around. I imagine it'd be very difficult for the tau to get into the swing of running a hive world for quite a fair bit.

>> No.19994621

>>19994597
So all these worlds people bring up are just exceptions to the main rule, and that most of humanity is living shitty lives under the Imperium.

>> No.19994627

>>19994597
What does that have to do with anything? The PRC is an extremely oppressive country, yet most Chinese live relatively happy and normal lives. Maybe the average china-man isn't as well off as the average American or Brit, but that doesn't mean that they exist in a living hell.

>> No.19994628

>>19994603
>Do you think the Eldar will just live like normal humans, slowly being out bred until they are a powerless minority?

The Eldar do it now. Dark Eldar have been using technology to circumvent their slow natural reproduction rates for millennia, the Eldar do not. The most obvious conclusion from this is that the Eldar do not care about the fact that they are dying.

>> No.19994639

>>19994628
Emphasis on the powerless minority part. Eldar are far too proud to let themselves be lowered to the point where they are subservient to mere humans.

>> No.19994640
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19994640

>>19994621
You got it!

Life as a common man in the Imperium is equal to being trash. You get thrown out all the time, and you're always stepped on or below something.

>> No.19994649

>>19994605
>TIDF

You're paranoid.

See this >>19994451

Clearly most of humanity isn't pleased with how things are run.

>> No.19994651

>>19994621

That's what the rulebooks say. Ultramar and Ciaphas Cain books present sympathetic worlds, but those should be taken as fringe exceptions, like the Drohai Craftworld that believes that it is the only one that really survived the Fall and that all other Eldar are corrupted filth not worth communicating with.

>> No.19994652

>>19994627
Try something along the likes of North Korea instead.

>> No.19994664

>>19994652
Most North Koreans that leave the country during times of famine usually only talk about how much they want back in.

>> No.19994668

>>19994652
>implying the average North Korean isn't fairly content with their lot and secure in the knowledge that Kim Il-sung created the universe

>> No.19994673

>>19994621
No. First of all, if they are shitting lives, it's their local government's fault, not the Imperium. The Adeptus Terra has only a few basic tenants for each world; other than that, they are free to be as cruel or kind as they wish.
Secondly, the "cruellest and bloodiest regime" doesn't necessarily refer to the Imperium. (And I highly doubt it would, since the Imperium is actually relatively lenient in its policies, going to extremes only when absolutely necessary, like pyskers and chaos etc.)
A regime could simply refer to the fact that the state of the galaxy is shit, rather than the Imperium being dicks to everyone

>> No.19994674

>>19994668
Sounds like a certain faction, doesn't it?

>> No.19994681

>>19994668
Because they're kept ignorant on dogma, just like the average Imperial citizen.

>> No.19994683

>>19994649
Like I said because it likes the focus on the over the top shittyness of life it ignores what many worlds are like. Decent to live in. You make it sound like the Tau invented decent standards of living.

>> No.19994687

>>19993517
Because wargame.

Seriously, 40k isn't a tabletop game set in a well thought out universe. It's a tabletop game with a bunch of different fections and they fight each other. Then people started asking why they fight and they made shit up.

>> No.19994693

>>19994673

>to be a man in such times is to live in yadda yadda

This most clearly refers to the Imperium, and it's pretty ridiculous that you're trying to twist it otherwise. TIDF's got nothing on you.

>> No.19994708
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19994708

>>19994673
>Secondly, the "cruellest and bloodiest regime" doesn't necessarily refer to the Imperium. (And I highly doubt it would, since the Imperium is actually relatively lenient in its policies, going to extremes only when absolutely necessary, like pyskers and chaos etc.)

The entire intro blurb is talking about the Imperium and only the Imperium. Context, you moron.
Lenient? Only doing what's necessary? Hell no. Pic related; this is what pilgrims risk their lives on years-long, dangerous space pilgrimages to go see. This is what the Imperium holds sacred.

It's not a necessity forced upon them, it's that they're a decaying, degenerate bunch of savages only barely held together by their ancient code.

>> No.19994719

>>19994668
This honestly. Ignorance is bliss, if you do not know how good other places are you will be content. Life as a serf in the middle ages was shit by our PoV, but you don't often hear about peasants killing themselves. Despite outnumbering the nobility by at least 10 to 1, even revolts are the exception rather than the rule.

>> No.19994731

>>19994693
Why would it refer to the Imperium? Not only is the quote contradicted by how the Imperium is shown to run (and quite subjective as well, I mean does that imply that the Dark Eldar/slaugh/tyranids are kinder than the Imperium?), the source passage does not seem like something that should be taken so literally. I mean, it's pretty obvious that 40k is not ALL FIGHTING, ALL TEH TIME RAAAGGHGGH

>> No.19994765

>>19994708
I fucking face palmed. There weren't any decently ranking agents of the adeptus terra involved. Their dickishness was due to the local population, not the Imperium. And dumbass, if you want to consider context, why not bother to read up on fluff?

>> No.19994772

>>19994719
>Life as a serf in the middle ages was shit by our PoV, but you don't often hear about peasants killing themselves.

They had other ways of expressing their anguish, apparently. Near-constant processions through medieval cities to repent or show devotion or pray for god's judgement would be one.

>> No.19994773

>>19994683
What I am trying to do here is establish that the Imperium isn't a decent place to live because I saw people say the opposite again and again despite the fluff says otherwise. Frankly, I am sick of it.

And another thing not everyone saying proTau things are TIDF, you paranoid noodle.

>> No.19994784

>>19994772
You mean like praising the Emprah day in and day out?

>> No.19994786

>>19994731

see

>>19994708

When it's not fighting all the time, it's still grimderp all the time.

As this passage in the rulebook suggests
>To maintain conftol over an empire constantly poised to be
>shattered, the Adeptus Terra has grown progressively harsher,
>their rule has grown ever more iron-fisted and tyrannical.

the fault of the grimdark living conditions cannot be blamed on planetary governors either, the Imperium itself is to blame.

>> No.19994787 [DELETED] 

>>19994773
What do you think the Imperium isn't? I have plenty of evidence showing that the quality of live is extremely variable as well. For christ's sake, it's stated in 6th ed.

>> No.19994793

>>19994708
And you wanna know something interesting about that fucked up sect? Even the Black Templars thought they were completely insane and quickly purged them.

The Second Purging of Lastrati in 543.M36, a part of the Athalor Crusade, was a result of the Quintarchs of Lastrati turning to barbaric blood rituals and human sacrifices in search of genetic perfection.
Marshal Gervhart and the Black Templars warriors of the Athalor Crusade had come to Lastrati to take heart from the planet's potent displays of faith in the past, but were horrified by what they found.
At first the Marines where welcomed as examples of genetic supremacy, but the more the Marines saw, the more they realised that the rituals of the people of Lastrati had more similarities with worship of the Ruinous Powers. Gervhart declared the Quintarchs of Lastratie Excommunicate Dictatus and personally executed them.
After four years of fighting, the warriors of Marshal Gervhart forced the remaining forces of Lastrati back into the Plain of Purity where they made their last stand before the Black Templars at the Hill of Heretics. The army was destroyed, the Black Templars showing no mercy and accepting no surrender.

>> No.19994810

>>19994786
Vague, uninformative, and still doesn't disprove the fact that multiple sources (like the 6th ed book, Dark Heresy, among several others) cite that how a world is run depends largely on the local populace and how the governor sees fit

>> No.19994816

>>19994786
More adeptus terra stuff

>Entire planets are turned into factory
>worlds, their imrnense populations enslaved and literally worked
>to death to produce materials no longer needed. Unending
>rows of scribes record statistics, following procedures as
>sacrosanct, although their recorded truths go unread, archived
>into continent-sized data banks that are filled, scrubbed blank
>and filled again. Lives, untold billions in number, are wasted
>out of ignorance, inertia or uncaring neglect.

>> No.19994822

>>19994765
>>19994731
The Imperium doesn't fucking run worlds. The Imperium is not a nation. The Imperium can't be distinct from the planetary lords that rule the worlds that swear allegiance to it. If the local lords aren't taken to be part of the Imperium, then yes, Imperial worlds are probably okay places, but *none of them exist.*

Insofar as the Imperium comprises a realm as well as a priesthood, and it is usually considered to refer to the realm, it is a pile of shit ruled by bickering feudalist inbreeds. If you are going to claim the term refers only to the priesthood, then give up trying to say that decent Imperial worlds exist, because in that case the only Imperial worlds that exist are forgeworlds, shrine worlds, marine chapter worlds, and other planets directly controlled by the Adepta, and those are provably shitholes too in the main.

>> No.19994824

>>19994773
I'm not saying the Imperium is a bloody paradise mate. I'm really not. But what I am saying that it really depends on the source material. Some books have some pleasant worlds, the rule books describes some of the worst hells imaginable and the Imperium as a whole is too large to catalogue as one big empire of misery.

>> No.19994851

>>19994816
>worlds turned into factory
Again, difficulty of life depends on local factors
>other bullshit
A small, small percentage of the millions of worlds in the Imperium. Going by those numbers, I'd say that the people who are mistreated by the Imperium are small minority,

>> No.19994852

>>19994810
Dark Heresy's authors generally made all their example planets steaming shitpiles, too. Just steaming shitpiles run in a variety of shitty ways.

>> No.19994860

>>19994810

As every rulebook says, the world is given a task by Imperium and the governor is only fit to rule it in the bounds of the task and the tithe.

Starvation in the hive worlds dependant on food imports? Governors can't do shit, it's the Imperium to blame.

World's entire population is suddenly turned into mining slaves because of a redesignation in Terra? Not the governor's fault, the Imperium is grimderp forever and fully.

>> No.19994868

>>19994708

That was more a Chaos cult if anything.

>> No.19994879

>>19994851

>people who are mistreated in the Imperium are a small minority

Blatantly false, >>19994451 says how it is and it's not like your fanfiction where imperium is not REALLY oppressive and it's all just a misunderstanding or some feelgood shit.

>> No.19994906

>>19994296
While it's from a BL novel, and thus, not technically canon, in Ultramarines series novel, Courage and Honour, the Ethereal in the book got veeeeery mad when a converted planetary governor mentioned the Emperor when grieving his mother, to the point of seeing him as no longer a member of Tau.

It might be different from Ethereal to Ethereal, but shit, that doesn't sound like freedom of religion to me. In fact, that Ethereal seemed against spirits of any kind.

>> No.19994915

>>19994868
It's not unknown for that sort of thing to not be chaos related- death cults for instance
>Then there are the Death Cults that specialise in ritual murder and assassination. The art of the blade is paramount to many Death Cultists; different types of incisions, lacerations and punctures, the weapon they are inflicted with, and the body location on which they are made, all have special significance to dedicating the soul to the Emperor. Death Cultists are quite frequently cannibals and haemavores (blood drinkers). They feel purified by eating the corpses of those they’ve slain, stealing their enemy’s prowess and soul for themselves. Often blood is siphoned off from the dead as offerings to the Emperor, and Death Cultists will make pilgrimages to a great Cathedral of the Ecclesiarchy to present their gifts to the Emperor.

>> No.19994945

during the golden age of technology we freely traded with xenos. during the dark age of technology, while we were cut off from the warp, aliens pretty much said its open season on us humies. emperor must have caught wind of that, didnt take too kindly to them poaching on his humans, and decided its open season on aliens.

and i agree with him

>> No.19994946

>>19994879
yo. dumbass.
First off, that's a 5th ed. quote.
Secondly, it's also a quote that provides only flavor text, generic states, and next to no actual evidence of how the Imperium is run, only a cute little grimdark blurb and vague refences that describe what could be but one planet.
Also.
>"... Planetary governor may rule his planet in any fashion he sees fit with little or no interference."
That is actually quite a lot of freedom.

>> No.19994960

>>19994860
>World's entire population is suddenly turned into mining slaves because of a redesignation in Terra? Not the governor's fault
Except it is the governor's fault. Even if the Imperium changed the tithe grade it doesn't mean that the governor has to go full retarded and work them to death, he can focus on efficiency, hunt down corrupt officials and have the Arbites get rid of them, promote based on merit.

A world is only as grimdark as its governor lets it get. Granted to turn a hive world into a half decent place to live you would have to kill billions, but it is possible.

>> No.19994981

>>19994946
>First off, that's a 5th ed. quote.
Point is?
>That is actually quite a lot of freedom.
And generally we see it horribly mismanaged.

>> No.19995029

>>19994960
This has nothing to do with whether or not Imperial planets are shitty. Saying shitty conditions are because of the governor and not the Adeptus doesn't mean conditions in the Imperium are not shitty. Which, again, they are.
See
>>19994822

>> No.19995030

>>19994981
>Point is?
It's outdated.
>And generally we see it horribly mismanaged.
don't blame the Imperium for that then

>> No.19995037

>>19994960

Not governors fault. If the planet gets redesignation and an unbearable tithe, the governor's "freedom" is to either work the population to death or rebel. This has also been portrayed in Dark Heresy.

Imperium's shittiness and absolutely incompetent bureaucracy ensures that governors are anything but free.

>> No.19995064

>>19995030

It's not outdated in any way. Where in 6th edition is it retconned? Nowhere, of course! In fact the incompetence and brutality of Adeptus Terra is once again repeated in the rulebook.

>> No.19995066

>>19995030
>it's outdated
I lost my reaction images folder in a hard drive crash, but oh wow
>don't blame that on the Imperium
You mean don't blame it on the Adeptus Terra, Mechanicus, Ministorum, or Astartes. The Imperium is the realm overseen by all of those (and their extensive subdivisions) and administrated by the Planetary Lords. If the Planetary Lords are shitbags, the Imperium is ruled by shitbags.

>> No.19995097

>>19995037
>little freedom
What did the goddamn 6th ed book just say about Imperial Commanders?
>In Dark Heresy
What ze fuck are you talking about? Are you referring to the *one* dumbass in Ascension who is an isolated case? It's not as if every official in the Adminstratum convened and decided "Hey let's fuck his is shit up"
We don't have the context of what the resources were needed for, and it is just one planet we are talking about.

>> No.19995115

>>19995097
Please look at all the other Imperial planets in Dark Heresy's premade setting and tell me about the ones that are, by and large, decent places to live.

>> No.19995126

>>19994719

> Despite outnumbering the nobility by at least 10 to 1, even revolts are the exception rather than the rule.

That's because they're peasants. They knew their place. Most rebellions were by minor nobles.

>> No.19995144

>>19995066
And I'm too lazy to reach for mine. It's simple, really. It's a previous edition. Should we pull out shit from the days as well now, just because there's been no fluff that explicitly contradicts it?

>> No.19995185

>>19995144
That isn't how 40k works. New editions do not change the canon, they state things about the setting which may expand on what's already there, or may reiterate it. The 40k setting has been pretty much continuous since second edition, and most of RT would fit into that continuum too.

>> No.19995190

>>19995037
Or you know, focus on efficiency. As I stated you don't need to go full one retarded just because of a tithe grade change. For example, increase work hours by 25% (so now you are working 15 hours a day, sucks for you), decrease pay/supplies to each worker by a small percentage, and root out corruption. No, it isn't nice having it done to you if you are a planetary governor, but it is generally manageable. There are very few cases of worlds being forced to pay tithe grades far beyond what they can normally manage, the only real example being Vostroya, which is largely voluntary and seems to be happily accepted by the population.

>> No.19995210

>>19995190
>(so now you are working 15 hours a day, sucks for you)
Gosh, sure sounds like the Imperium is a decent and normal place to live.

>> No.19995222

>>19995115
Oh wow. You... think..a sector... really represents a large amount of the Imperium? And please, my friend show me how the majority of the worlds in Calixis are shit.

>> No.19995246

>>19995185
Fucking really? This is perhaps the most retarded thing I've heard today. Congrats. 11/10.
Did you
-Forget that the squats were retconned back in
-Forget that the IG don't use land raiders
-forget that the marines aren't majorly composed of beakies anymore
-Forget 40k?

>> No.19995323

I sort of see it as in real life. You have a chance to be born in a nice country/ planet like, I dont know, New Zealand/ Macragge, and you've got a chance to be born into a sort of middle ground country like India/ Fenris (I dont know, barbarian but free?) And you get the chance to be born in a rreaaaaally awful place, like North Korea/ Necromunda.

The proportions are probably similar. Because humans arent really great at dealing with power, most worlds will be bad. Most people will be under resourced. Their will be "1st world" Worlds, and 1st world populations on worlds, but the majority of people will still be pretty screwed.

>> No.19995342

>>19995222
>You... think..a sector... really represents a large amount of the Imperium?
No, I think the sample setting is meant to be somewhat representative. In fact, the Calixis sector is stated to have a higher AdMech presence than most, meaning a higher standard of technology. It's above par and it's a colossal dickpile.

As for how they're shit...
>Scintilla is the capital world of the Calixis Sector... is also a world of corruption... thrill-seeking degenerates from the noble houses to prey upon lesser humans as sport ... the legal system is deadly duels

Goes on to detail a bunch of shitty hives and their miserable populations. This is the capital.

>Iocanthos... a lawless world dominated by warlords and their huge armies.
Need I say more. This is the second planet they detail. Its largest settlement is called Port Suffering.

>Sepheris Secundus... While the whole Imperium is a feudal empire, feudalism is an extreme on Sepheris Secundus. Everyone born on the planet must have a master to whom pay nine-tenths of everything they produce... Two principal forces maintain this: Tradition and physical violence.

Calixis sector is a shitpile.

>> No.19995345
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19995345

>>19994357
I have the sneaking suspicion that a Sister of Battle would be a reaaaly high maintenance partner.

>> No.19995373

>>19995342
>No, I think the sample setting is meant to be somewhat representative
Stopped taking you seriously right there. l2statistics
I would go on about the rest of your bullshit, but I'm just gona state the obvious here-
Severe undersampling

>> No.19995385

>>19995246
You can deal with it. The official, canonical rule is that everything ever written for 40k is as "canonical" now as it ever was.
IG use land raiders somewhere in the ancient past and on the backwards periphery worlds. Squats seceded from the Imperium during the Age of Apostasy (say all the second edition books). Mk6 armor has been one of eight historical marks since RT, so I don't know what your deal with that is.

>> No.19995403 [DELETED] 

>>19995342
Wow, it's like if I randomly chose three countries on Earth to reprsent it.
Except even dumber

>> No.19995410

>>19995373
Feel free to pretend that the setting of the official 40k rpg is not meant to represent the 40k setting.

>> No.19995430

>>19995403
Those are the first three in a row in the Calixis section of the DH rulebook. I'd go through the rest of them, but spoiler alert, all of them are terrible places.

>> No.19995432

>>19995342
>>19995342
Wow, it's like if I randomly chose three countries on Earth to represent it.
Except even dumber

>> No.19995437

>>19993980
WRONG
No such thing as 40K canon, just lies and unreliable narrators

>> No.19995453

>>19994537
>Nemeroth
>Not Eliphas

Kill yourself.

>> No.19995458

>>19995432
So now that I've shown what GW (DH was originally an in-house production you'll recall) saw fit to present as a variety of Imperial locales, why don't you show me the normal, pleasant worlds you've been sputtering about?

>> No.19995479

>>19995342
those are all individual worlds leaning toward the extreme end; there are just as many paradise worlds: Reth, Archaos, Cyprian's Gate, etc..

>> No.19995484

>>19995410
Feel free to pretend you read Dark Heresy.
C'mon man. At least try a bit.
>above average cuz machanicus
higher mechanicus presence doesn't necessarily imply higher tech level... and are you trying to say a higher tech level means it's "above average" in terms of the Imperium?
>hurprepresentative of all imperium
Nothing in Dh says that. Its focus is on Calixis, and does not say the majority of planets are shit.

>> No.19995508

>>19995479

Their population is minuscule compared to the shithole worlds, those are the outliers.

>> No.19995540

>>19995508
And you have no proof

>> No.19995543

>>19995222
*Dusk; a Death World, believed to be cursed by the locals and has a thin warp/realspace veil.
*Mara, a quarantine world that drove the Guardsmen stranded there insane in a matter of hours.
*Tranch, a war embroiled in a civil war thanks to a mutant uprising.
*Fenksworld, a hellhole of a hive world where mutants and creatures from the underhives prey on humans and pollution is rampant.
*Scintilla, the capital world, plagued by gun crime and petty corruption.
*Maccabeus Quintus, basically Siberia. Viciously cold weather but pious locals.
*Sepherus Secundus, feudal world where serfs toil their entire lives in mines without rest or respite, oppressed by the planetary queen's troopers (who have lasguns).
*Prol, a "scrivener's system" which has a civil war brewing because they are running out of spaces to store the paperwork.
*Fervious, a feudal world dominated by quarrelling warlords; basically feudal Japan.

And those are only the ones off the top of my head.

>> No.19995558

>>19995484
>Nothing in Dh says that.
>"In addition, the information presented here provides a sample taste of the worlds, people and organisations of the Imperium for GMs who are not particularly familiar with the 41st Millennium."
I'm sure you'll rationalize that not meaning that these are a sample of Imperial worlds that convey the nature of the Imperium.

>Its focus is on Calixis, and does not say the majority of planets are shit.
Its focus is on Calixis, and all of the planets it details are shit.

Feel free to claim GW just up and decided to set their RPG in the shittiest part of the galaxy. But that would be bullshit.

>> No.19995565

>>19995508
Those are just the top 5%, along with Quaddis, Kinog, and so on. The equivalent of rich first-worlders. Sepheris Secundus is explicitly called out in-setting as being an outlier for misery; not the standard.

>> No.19995590

>>19995558
>sample
Right. It's a fucking sample. And still nothing that indicates it's a representative sample. And even then, there are probably as many awesome worlds as there are shithole ones.

>> No.19995617

>>19995590
You are still trying to claim the official 40krpg setting is not meant to mirror the 40k setting.
Step back, take a breath, and look at that.
It is stupid.

>> No.19995633

>>19995590
It is a representative sample. It's mean to give GMs an idea what the Imperium is like if they're not very familiar with the 40k setting, and I've got news for you, most Imperial planets are shitholes.

>> No.19995645

>>19995617
What are you getting at? You still have nothing presents that the majority of Calixis is shit, or that Calixis is representative of the Imperium at large. You've only been giving me isolated examples..

>> No.19995656

>>19995633
>most Imperial planets are shitholes
gimme something that proves that.

>> No.19995679

>>19995645
>What are you getting at? You still have nothing presents that the majority of Calixis is shit
Except the numerous example planets that Black Industries wrote to demonstrate precisely that.

>or that Calixis is representative of the Imperium at large.
And the note about the purpose of the Calixis setting would demonstrate that to a reasonable interpreter.

>You've only been giving me isolated examples..
You've been giving me no examples at all.

>> No.19995722

>>19995656

We already have proof, to live in the Imperium is to live in the most bloody and cruel regime imaginable as the rulebooks say. North Korea is a paradise compared to that.

>> No.19995757

>>19995722
It is on average, when summed over. That doesn't mean it's uniformly so, and we have repeated examples of not-terrible places to live.

>> No.19995773
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19995773

>>19995679
>And the note about the purpose of the Calixis setting would demonstrate that to a reasonable interpreter.
This note ? Wouldn't it indicate the Calixis sector is a pretty shit place to be ?

>> No.19995788

>>19995757
So show us some of these places where normal people live happy lives. Cause most of the time the only counter-example is "but there's pleasure worlds!", which hardly support the notion that normal Imperial planets are decent places.

>> No.19995793
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19995793

>40K fags scream to high heaven that 40K is superior to Warhammer Fantasy because the setting is 'so diverse'
>every planet is a shithole of one type or another and everyone is an asshole and you the player can't do shit to buck this without being told you're doing something wrong

So diverse.

>> No.19995801

>>19995679
>Except the numerous example planets that Black Industries wrote to demonstrate precisely that.
They are still a small fraction of the worlds in Calixis. We can keep this going all day, buddy.
>And the note about the purpose of the Calixis setting would demonstrate that to a reasonable interpreter.
You still trying to prove this mate? Tell me when BI or FFG specifically states that the majority of the worlds in Calixis are shit/represent the distribution of the Imperium. 'Cause honestly, if only the worlds you gave me are shit.. Calixis has a pretty good distribution of bad to good.
>You've been giving me no examples at all.
If you want proof, read the blurbs in DH and 6th ed that state how IC's run worlds. Giving out individual examples of worlds are pointless; I could keep on listing paradise worlds and dig through codices and rulebooks for them, but both of our examples combined only present a small picture of the Imperium.

>> No.19995814
File: 282 KB, 427x477, Screen shot 2012-07-22 at 3.55.14 PM.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19995814

>>19995773
I hadn't seen that one, I meant the one in the black box higher up the page. But on that note, how about this one?

>> No.19995821
File: 187 KB, 800x600, 1335485099866.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19995821

>>19995801
>If you want examples, I won't provide them. Provide for yourself
>Man I sure am good at pulling up evidence

This doesn't bode well for your argument at all, you know that, right?

>> No.19995828

>>19995793

If you don't like grimdark, you're doing something wrong when you're playing 40k.

There is no time to plan, there is no space to think. No respite. No forgiveness. THERE IS ONLY WAR.

>> No.19995843
File: 341 KB, 365x661, Screen shot 2012-07-22 at 3.57.12 PM.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19995843

>>19995814
>note how it flat out said that no Imperial world exists without a siege mindset
Or this one.

>> No.19995845

>>19995788
The fluff? The agrarian, civilised and shrine worlds throughout the sector described as stable/lush/rich/democratic/pious/enlightened/adjective of choice here?

Grimdark without some light doesn't work as a medium.

>> No.19995883

>>19995773
>worlds give men and material to the Imperium
The picture was an incredibly long-winded way of saying that.
>>19995773
It's incredibly vague on what's it trying to say + a large number of those factors are probably NOT caused by the Imperium. It's referring to a lot of scenarios that act upon the planets, not something consciously being pushed by the Imperium

>> No.19995891

Most of the Imperium lives in situations that can be summed up as "Average" to "okay". They aren't high on the hog, they're just some grunt worker in a factory, or a farmer. But they have food, they have a family, and they're happy.

Then, when you remove those people, most people live on a world that can be best described as "Shitty". The AVERAGE Hiveworld counts as this, as while your situation is horrible, it could be far, far, far worse.

Then, removing that, most live on worlds that are "Horribly shitty". Like, less than half of all hiveworlds, and worlds like Valhalla, Fenris, etc.

Then, removing that, you have worlds that are "Disgustingly obscenely shitty". Stuff like Krieg, Catachan, etc. Not necessarily Death Worlds, but worlds where the crushing regime literally crushes you.

Finally, you have worlds that could be described anywhere from "Paradise" to "amazing". These are pleasure worlds, Mechanicus worlds (If you're in the AdMech), and paradise worlds. They make up the minority.

tl;dr most PLANETS of the Imperium are not as good as 2012 Earth, but are not bad either. These places are INCREDIBLY boring. 40k is a WAR GAME. Not a "slice of life" game. It is about WAR, DESTRUCTION, DEATH, CRUSHING REGIMES, HORRIBLE EVIL PLACES, FIGHTING UNCONQUERABLE EVIL.

If you want an example of what a Tau planet would be like, read the book "The Giver".

>> No.19995926

>>19995821
It doesn't bode well for your intelligence when you can't be arsed to read. Do you want me to scan those passages from DH and 6th ed for you?
Do you want me to list all the worlds of Ultramar for you? + pull out all the paradise worlds that FFG created

>> No.19995930

>>19995891
>tl;dr most PLANETS of the Imperium are not as good as 2012 Earth, but are not bad either.

I'd be cool with it if this were demonstrably the case, but it demonstrably is not. Whenever the Imperium is generalized, it is said to be terrible, whenever planets are specified, they are said to be terrible.

>> No.19995953

>>1999592
Yes. If you want to argue your point, you must present your evidence.

>Write an essay
>Put sources as 'google.com GOOGLE IT YOURSELF'
>F- see me after class

>> No.19995969

>>19995926
>Do you want me to list all the worlds of Ultramar for you?
Right, the strictly ordered, highly efficient, military-glory based culture run by ubermen. Such a beacon of enlightenment.

> + pull out all the paradise worlds that FFG created
Like that one where nobles take vacations and go man-hunting in the jungle? Was that it?
Paradise worlds aren't supportive of the claim that most Imperial worlds are decent in any case, just that a tiny sliver of the population can afford to travel somewhere nice at the cost of numerous peasant lives.

>> No.19995993

>>19995930
GOD FUCKING DAMMIT, FINE.
Iax
Macragge
Prassium
Zaxxis
Quintarn
Tarentus
Masali
Cyprian's Gate

>> No.19996006
File: 9 KB, 939x101, ad hominem.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19996006

>>19995953
I still have your post. Don't think you can hide from me.

>> No.19996024

OP, humanity is like the white blood cells of the universe. We take the resources to survive, we destroy aliens andwe purify the universe. Tyranids and necrons are two types of cancer. Caos is like the thoughts and shit

the bad thing is that the universe is also suffering some kind of Autoimmunity

>> No.19996035

>>19995969
>The European/Asian/American middle class isn't supportive of the claim that most of Terra is decent in any case, just that a tiny sliver of the population can afford to live somewhere nice at the cost of numerous third-world lives.

>> No.19996040

>>19995993
See
>>19995969
Ultramar is a realm of religio-military fascism run by inhuman overlords, paradise worlds are reserved for nobles, and neither say *anything* about typical Imperial worlds being nice places.
In fact, they both say a lot about very rare Imperial worlds being tolerable places.

>> No.19996047

>>19996024

No humans, you are the cancer.

And then Emperor was a corpse.

>> No.19996080

>>19996035
More like
>The Vatican wasn't supportive of the claim that most of Medieval Europe was decent in any case, just that a tiny sliver of the population was able to afford to build some big cathedrals at the cost of innumerable peasant lives.

>> No.19996102

>>19995969
Is there any point in continuing this?
>mentions paradise worlds
>HURDUR TINY MINORITY, NOT REPRESENTATIVE
>you mention a few shit worlds
>ALL WORLDS R SHIT GO SUCK DIDCK
".. From wild frontiers full of lawless savagery... to ancient civilizations with cultures so refined... all are part of the Imperium"
"... A plentary governor may rule his planet in any fashion he sees fit with little or no interference"

>> No.19996130

>>19996080

It is a fact in 40k that being a crazy chaos cultist or a mindshackled slave of necrons is better than being an Imperial, at least then you may ignore or even like the bad shit that inevitably happens to you.

>> No.19996132

>>19996006
>>19995926
umad?

>> No.19996160

>>19996102
Except paradise worlds are stated to be exceptional and reserved for a very few, and all the other planets are not stated to be exceptional and have a much wider range of population. And paradise worlds described almost always have a built in oh-wait-this-is-morally-horrifying part to their special type of paradise. Like the part where nobles hunt lesser humans.

>> No.19996216

>>19996160

To be fair, the Dreadfort is probably awesome place to be Ramsay Bolton.

>From my point of view the Jedi are evil

>> No.19996234

>>19995773
>This territory is far from the armies of the Imperium
I'm sure it would be a much nicer place if it were full of soldiers, amirite?

>> No.19996240

>>19996040
"The Ultramarines rule so efficiently and are so prosperous that they maintain several hundred regiments ready and willing to join the Imperial Guard..."
>".. Iax is sometimes described as the Garden of Ultramar. Its climate and fertility have made it one of the most productive worlds in the Imperium... the inhabitants have harnessed the planet's inherent verdancy, covering its surface with well-ordered farms and cultivated woodlands."
>"Thanks to a mild climate and fertile virgin environment, the people of Prandium prospered."
Does this sound UBERDARK to you?

>> No.19996349

>>19996240
>Does this sound UBERDARK to you?
Kind of, yeah. Productivity and maximization of a planet's output don't show much except an efficient system. The fact that it's ruled by a bunch of monkish killing machines with utter devotion to the Imperium doesn't convince me that the measures taken to reach this efficiency are exactly humane.
I'm sure it's a relatively nice place though, compared to the colossally shit state that most of the Imperium is in.

Also, poor conditions ≠ uberdark. It's the corruption, decay, superstition and control via violence that make the Imperium dark, not the quality of tap water. The fact that poor conditions are prevalent just makes it unpleasant as well as dark.

>> No.19996434

Why are people so hopelessly stuck on using fact and example to prove something in 40k. Any mention of a peaceful planet would be a sideways, half stated sentence, with no specific name, buried in a paragraph of "everything is awful," if it exists at all! and it may not, but that doesn't mean it's not true. In the end, the canon is yours to play with, whatever you feel is right is right. It's even justified in the canon if you and your opponent have different ideas! Yours is propaganda and his is slander, and neither is the truth! "There are nice worlds in 40k." is a statement that cannot be countered with "Give me examples." We aren't researchers. There are no facts here. It's make-believe.

>> No.19996475

>>19996434
When something runs contrary to the premise and core themes of the setting, well, it's okay for people to say it exists in their interpretation, but they shouldn't try to state it as categorical fact when what little of the setting that has been detailed is so strongly against it.

And also, we are nerds and arguing is fun, the more mutual rage the better.

>> No.19996525

>>19996475
The setting is detailed based on what's important: an excuse for little plastic men to fight. STRIFE. STRIFE EVERYWHERE.

>> No.19996563

>>19996525
Yes. The fact that an external design reason for this exists doesn't mean that it isn't internally true of the setting. Strife everywhere is the case because it's a wargame setting, but in the setting, it simply is the case.

>> No.19996579

>>19996349
But the Ultras are mentioned as having close ties to the civilian populace and the citizens of Ultramar are their biggest fanboys. And furthermore, I fail to see how the descriptions of these world's don't point out the good quality of life in Ultrarmar. For fuck's sake, our spiritual liege wrote this shit. You think he'd go for a grimdark Ultramar? If the marines wanted to be efficient and brtual they'd have made worlds like Iax polluted wastelands full of mining camps and factories.

>> No.19996607

>>19996579
> For fuck's sake, our spiritual liege wrote this shit.

Ultramar has been that way since second edition. And it's always been ruled by religio-fascist murdermonks. And it's always been a besieged island in a dark sea of sharks.

Oh wait, you [assuming same anon] don't believe in previous editions, nevermind.

>> No.19996658
File: 759 KB, 1280x1908, 15.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19996658

Ultramar is so grimdark

Damn those fascist smurfs for puttin down the common man

>> No.19996667

>>19996607
>don't believe in previous editions
Isn't it common sense that canonicity is determined by the latest sources? Want to justify to me how a previous edition states that the Squats were totally NOM'd by the nids and now they're back? Or how the current fluff states that the Imperial Army used land raiders, not the IG?
Furthermore, this shit was pulled from the most recent SM dex.

>> No.19996691

>>19996349
>ugh, compared to the colossally shit state that most of the Imperium is in.
Again, where does it say that the majority of worlds are BROOTALY OPPRESSED by the Imperium?

>> No.19996702

>>19996691
right here damn you >>19994451

>> No.19996720

>>19996702
>Previous ed.
>generic grimdark blurb
>still no statement

>> No.19996726

>>19996667
>Furthermore, this shit was pulled from the most recent SM dex.
Which was taken almost word for word from 2nd edition. Ultramar has been a noblebright island in a grimdark future since near the beginning.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ultramar#.UAyS0LRDySo
the Society section cites the shit out of second edition.

>> No.19996751

>>19996726
Then what's the point that you're trying to prove? All the editions' rulebooks maintain near-perfect consistency with each other? If fluff coincides/repeats in the latest edition, then yes, its canon. If it doesn't, there isn't much of a reason to suggest that it's still canon.

>> No.19996763

honestly the emperor, and even the empirum as it is currently, arnt "murder all xenos." Its "Murder all threats to humanity." Now the requirements to be a "threat to humanity" arnt exactly super hard to meet, and if even a bit of your race fall under those the whole race gets the shitstick for it. But there ARE sanctioned xenos who are traded with and dealth with peaceably. You rarely hear about them though, because as a rule of thumb, they just dont matter.

>> No.19996787

>>19996349
You know what the problem is here? You and other people are trying apply 21st century trains of thought into the far far future. Of course the Imperium is going to be mostly shit from our stand point.

>> No.19996794

>>19996691
Like, fucking, everywhere ever.
>To be a man in such times... is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable
Would be a good start. Yes, it refers to the Imperium. Yes, it is categorical.

>>19996667
>Want to justify to me how a previous edition states that the Squats were totally NOM'd by the nids and now they're back?
Want to show me where they said that apart from joking remarks by codex authors in the letters page of WD? Cause all the 2e material just said they had seceded from the Imperium during the Age of Apostasy, and there's been tons of references to them since mid 4th edition.

>Or how the current fluff states that the Imperial Army used land raiders, not the IG?
The current fluff, like the 2e fluff it's copypasted off, and all the fluff in between, says IG regiments are armed mostly how their planetary lord arms his PDF.

>> No.19996857

>>19996794
>Want to show me where they said that apart from joking remarks by codex authors in the letters page of WD? Cause all the 2e material just said they had seceded from the Imperium during the Age of Apostasy, and there's been tons of references to them since mid 4th edition.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060129002420/http://forums.specialist-games.com/epic/forum_b/topic.asp?
ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=2532&whichpage=3
>The current fluff, like the 2e fluff it's copypasted off, and all the fluff in between, says IG regiments are armed mostly how their planetary lord arms his PDF.
And that proves IG have land raiders how??
>Would be a good start. Yes, it refers to the Imperium. Yes, it is categorical.
Why? Humans live in other empires as well

>> No.19996935

>>19996857
>http://web.archive.org/web/20060129002420/http://forums.specialist-games.com/epic/forum_b/topic.
asp?
ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=2532&whichpage=3
How about a printed source? The only ones are responses in the letters column.
How about showing any 40k galaxy map ever where the hive fleets pass through squat territory?
>And that proves IG have land raiders how??
It doesn't prove anything, it just leaves a possibility that, due to the diversity of the galaxy and its varying states of backwardness, land raiders are used somewhere. Just like we *know* lots of vehicles other than the codex ones are used, but the codex ones are the most common. Just like we *know* guard regiments in powered armor exist, but not on the table.

>Why? Humans live in other empires as well
Because the blurb refers to the Imperium specifically, and then goes on to elaborate on its level of technological, informational and societal collapse. Because it doesn't say 'to be a man in certain regions that are not the largest human empire in the galaxy', it says 'to be a man in such times'.

>> No.19997005

>>19996935
>How about a printed source? The only ones are responses in the letters column.
Why do you need a printed source?
>How about showing any 40k galaxy map ever where the hive fleets pass through squat territory?
Are you retarded? Why the hell do you need a starmap to prove this? Squats got nom'd by nids because Jervis said so.
>It doesn't prove anything
HURPADURRP NOW AFTER CLAIMING THE IMPERIUM IS SO UNIFORMLY GRIMDARP AND OPPRESSIVE, I'M NOW GOING TO SAY ITS DIVERSE AND SUPER ADVANCED IG WITH POWER ARMOR AND LAND RAIDERS EXIST

>> No.19997059

>>19997005
cont
>to be a man in such times
So that refers to all of humanity. Not just ones of the Imperium. Doesn't say "to be a man of the Imperium"
>IG have landraiders
http://web.archive.org/web/20071002030430/http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/40k/spacemarines/extras
/landraiderhistory/default.htm
Not even the older fluff agrees

>> No.19997102

>>19997005
>Why do you need a printed source?
I might ask you the very same question.
>Are you retarded? Why the hell do you need a starmap to prove this? Squats got nom'd by nids because Jervis said so.
Remarks on a fan forum aren't the previous edition fluff you claimed existed, are they?
>I'M NOW GOING TO SAY ITS DIVERSE AND SUPER ADVANCED IG WITH POWER ARMOR AND LAND RAIDERS EXIST
Power armor IG have been written in novels. Tarsis Ultra regiments. Land Raider IG have been shown and never been eliminated.
And I never claimed the Imperium was uniform, just that it was an awful realm. In fact, I showed a variety of different planets that are shitty in different ways. Exceptions exist. There are nice planets, probably. The idea that the typical Imperial world is a nice place is full of shit, though.

You won't get anywhere with claiming new editions invalidate everything previous. You can find the IP director, the Black Library director, and plenty of authors stating that that just isn't how it works. If it's printed 40k material, it's canon till the end of time.

>hurrrg why jervis not valid but all these peoples is
Because Jervis's remark there is an unofficial aside positing an in-universe change, while all these people are stating the official, real-world policy of GW's IP management.

>> No.19997144

>>19997059
>So that refers to all of humanity. Not just ones of the Imperium.
Correct. Maybe you're getting somewhere now. Yes, it does say life is shitty for all humans in M41.

>Not even the older fluff agrees
Web archive sys that page isn't archived, but 2000-something fluff, you are correct, did not have IG in land raiders. 1980-something and 1990-something did. IG fluff all times says that IG regiments are equipped as their planetary lord wills, which does not rule out land raiders any more than it rules out autoguns or silly hats.

>> No.19997159

>>19996240
The Tyranids ATE Prandium when they attacked Ultramar because it was such a lush world.

Fun fact, "Prandium" is Latin for "lunch".

>> No.19997213
File: 2.09 MB, 1200x1500, 1311171262083.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19997213

>b-b-but I-I wanna be the good guy and rescue sexy alien catgirls , why is everyone so nazi

Don't fucking play 40k if your childish sense of morals in a game makes you believe that there mustn't be morally ambigous or even wrong factions by present day morals.

You just want to slay the evil overlord and save the princess.Fine do that. But just stop playing 40k and wasting time by poorly trying to rationalize core elements with flawed hippie logic.
Go.play.something.else.

>> No.19997232

>>19997144
Nevermind, got the page to work. Yeah, it says there they were forbidden outside the space marines. Similar was written of antigrav tech like Land Speeders have, yet we see those in civilian use. And in the same time as this fluff, we had Land Raiders featured in articles about the adeptus mechanicus.
The galaxy's a big place, and anything can happen. I'm not saying Land Raiders are common use, just that someone, somewhere, at some point in the Imperium's history, has issued an IG regiment with them. As you can tell from the depictions of IG with land raiders.

>> No.19997258

> Land Raider IG have been shown and never been eliminated.
That's... you're... wuh.
"The Emperor decreed that all Land Raiders still in loyalist service were to be recalled for exclusive use by the Legionnes Astartes, who were at the forefront of the fighting.. with the Emperor's ascension to the Golden Throne, none dared countermand his order that Land Raiders were for the exclusive use of the Space Marines. Thus has it remained for the last 10,000 years."
You're perhaps the greatest troll I've met sir. I've never seen such blatant disregard for common sense. If you really want to hop on the BL interpretation of fluff, then there was really no point of you responding to my claims anyway, since it's all up to interpretation. It's as noblebright or dark as you want. I fear that continuing this argument may be a lost cause.

>> No.19997277

Man, from what I read, the Imperial guard just keep getting shafted more and more.

Sucks.

Pretty soon it'll be:

>HIS HOLINESS DECREES THAT ALL LASGUNS WILL BE RECALLED FOR USE BY ONLY THE ASTARTES
>YOU WILL HAVE TO MAKE DO WITH THESE ROCKS, SANCTIONED POSSIBLY BY A MINOR PRIEST HIMSELF
>AVE IMPERIUM

>> No.19997320

>>19997277
hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

>> No.19997376

>>19997320
The IG used to have landspeeders.

Nope, not anymore.

IG used to have a lot of things, but they keep getting flung to the space marines instead.

>> No.19997650

>>19994537

Orks don't live in fear of those bigger than them, they merely respect them. And that respect only lasts as long as they don't decide it's THEIR turn to off the bigger git.

>> No.19998272
File: 21 KB, 272x299, Tau_Sympathizer.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19998272

>>19994640
>>19994341
>>19993795

>> No.19998399

>>19997213
>actively seeking the genocide of all non-human sentient life, whether hostile or not
>morally ambiguous or even wrong by present day morals
Understatement of the year? The Nazis were only out to wipe out one race, and I doubt the majority of Germans actively supported that idea.

>> No.19998449

>>19998399
Also... it's not that I have a problem with the Imperium being evil. The only icky bit is where the rulebook- in an omniscient descriptive voice, not an in-setting one- talks about how this open-ended genocide is understandable/justified by the fact that lots of aliens are dicks.

>> No.19998466

>>19998399
>I doubt the majority of Germans actively supported that idea.
But the majority of them WERE pretty keen on getting out of the nightmare of post-WW1

The Imperium is in a similar situation, except the Jews are actually trying to eat their brains and enslave their children

>> No.19998484

>>19998399
you're thinking in black and white morality; and that's objectively wrong.

Think blue and orange.

>> No.19998506

>>19998466
Fucking space jews.

>> No.19998524

>>19998466
Yeah, except that the rulebook explicitly says 'much of the Imperium' wants to exterminate all aliens, 'even those that are entirely peaceful species', while only 'some have proven as ruthless and ambitious ashumanity itself'. That pretty unambiguously makes the Imperium straight-up evil.

>> No.19998573

>>19998524
It's official policy. In practice, the Imperium can't be bothered with peaceful xenos, they have bigger worries.

>> No.19998607

>>19998484
True, of course. It's just kinda jarring when people think of imperial forces as 'good guys'- and the way everything focuses on them and their military heroics adds to that. Every Space Marine victory is a victory for an openly genocidal Bastardocracy.

>> No.19998636

>>19998466

The Jews were hardly the only victims. The disabled were fucked over like you wouldn't believe, and they also did some nasty shit to most minorities they didn't like. Non-christion religiosu groups started to cop it too, and by the end of the regime a lot of sects of christians were getting killed. In fact, the Jews were a minority of people killed by the Nazi machine. The largest specifically-targeted minority, but a minority nonetheless. It's just nobody else gets any attention, because the fact of drastically widespread killings captured public imagination less than fewer killings with the clear and institutionalised goal of eliminating a specific population. Which always surprised me a bit, because most governments had done things like this before, and some were doing them then or did them afterwards.

>> No.19998689

>>19998636
Oh yeah, I agree, but I was talking specifically about genocide- attempting to wipe out a race. And yes, your last point is a good one that always occurs to me when I hear something like 'we must never let it happen again'. It already has, guys, several times.

>> No.19998920
File: 95 KB, 640x480, SHAMEFURDISPRAY.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19998920

>>19998636

>Non-christion religiosu
>religiosu

Aaaaaaaaaaand now I'm hearing your post in his voice

>> No.19998928

>>19998689

It's not my damn fault the UN is an impotent sack of shit

>> No.19998963

>>19998524

Because the 'peaceful' species basically pointed and laughed while humanity burned and then took worlds we held by military force. The violent species are the ones that kept doing it after we got back up.

The Imperium is basically Bruce Wayne. We were cruising along in the galaxy, and our parents, the Iron Men, were doing all kinds of awesome spacefaring shit and founding a civilisation that was probably going to eventually be as big as the Eldar or the Necrontyr. But then Technology killed our parents and destroyed everything we loved and plunged the galaxy they'd tried to tame into bullshit chaos for the people they'd tried to save it for. And the aliens were the cynical criminals that took advantage of that and made it worse, guaranteeing that the dream could never be real. So the Imperium gets training and vows toavenge its family and make the galaxcy safe again. And THAT means the aliens are just going to have to go. There are evil mob boss murderer aliens, and small-fry crook aliens, but they're all going to have to go to clean up the galaxy.

Also, aliens can live in the Imperium. They just have to recognise the manifest destiny of man to reclaim the galaxy, and the divinity of the Emperor. It's just they don't, never have, and explorators more or less gave up on trying.

>> No.19998999

>>19998928

The UN can't be more than a sum of its parts. That's the fundamental inalterable basis of international law. And when those parts are deliberately sabotaging every mechanism to do something about things they aren't unhappy with, blaming the UN is as stupid as blaming the person for having a for having a cancerous organ that's killing the body.

>> No.19999006
File: 1.48 MB, 1337x1528, 1342097084830.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19999006

>>19994537
The gods scratch our backs and we fuck theirs.

>> No.19999054

>>19998963
>aliens can live in the Imperium. They just have to recognise the manifest destiny of man to reclaim the galaxy, and the divinity of the Emperor. It's just they don't, never have, and explorators more or less gave up on trying.

Which part of ''Kill the Xeno'' you don't understand, you dolting dolt? The Kill part?

>> No.19999100

>>19999054

>Jokaero

>> No.19999172

>>19999100
They are animals that happen to make stuff, and hey they don't recognized the emperor as anything.

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